March 11, 2026 • 36 mins
In this episode of Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Kat delve into the complexities of Imposter Syndrome, exploring its roots, manifestations, and the societal conditioning that often exacerbates it, particularly for women. They discuss practical tools and strategies for reframing negative self-perceptions, the importance of coaching and mentorship, and the need for authentic role models. The conversation emphasizes the significance of finding support and resources to navigate the challenges of self-doubt and encourages listeners to embrace their true selves.
Key Takeaways
- Imposter Syndrome is often more prevalent among women due to societal conditioning.
- The concept of 'secret memos' illustrates how people feel out of place in social settings.
- Reframing negative thoughts is crucial in overcoming Imposter Syndrome.
- Writing down negative beliefs can help in assessing their truth.
- Coaching provides an objective perspective that can aid in personal growth.
- Client preferences can impact self-perception and work satisfaction.
- Women often have fewer role models in leadership roles, making it harder to find relatable guidance.
- Authenticity is vital in overcoming Imposter Syndrome and finding one's voice.
- Support systems, whether human or virtual, are essential for personal development.
- Taking small steps and finding resources can help in managing self-doubt.
Resources
- Clifton Strengths Finder: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/home.aspx
- Debbie Millman's Design Matters Podcast: https://designmattersmedia.com/
- Frances Frei & Anne Morris's Fixable Podcast: https://anneandfrances.com/fixable
- Carla Harris - Pearls of Wisdom: https://www.carlaspearls.com/
- Brene Brown - The Power of Vulnerability: https://brenebrown.com/
Find Kat
- Kat on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/katlogan/
- Kat’s Website: https://www.illuminatedcoach.com/
- Kat on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katlogan01
More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters
- Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
- Indra’s Blog: https://peopleprocessthings.substack.com
- The Messy Middle Matters on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themessymiddlematters/
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: https://messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch https://messymiddlemerch.com
Keywords
Imposter Syndrome, Coaching, Mentorship, Women in Leadership, Self-Perception, Overcoming Doubt, Personal Growth, Authenticity, Social Conditioning, Professional Development
Chapters
00:00 Understanding Imposter Syndrome
03:02 The Secret Memos and Social Conditioning
06:12 Reframing Imposter Syndrome
08:52 Tools and Practices for Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
11:46 The Role of Coaching and Mentorship
14:49 Navigating Client Expectations and Self-Perception
17:58 The Importance of Role Models
21:19 Raw to Roar: Embracing Authenticity
23:41 Finding Support and Resources
26:52 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, welcomeback to the messy middle
matters. Today we are talkingabout one of my more favorite
topics to talk about, ingeneral, and we're going to be
(00:27):
joined again by a familiar voiceand a familiar face. So today
we're talking about impostersyndrome, all the different
facets, how it's labeled, whenit's labeled, what the root
causes of it might be? Is it? Isit something that's internal to
you? Is it something that'sstructural in the environment
(00:49):
that you're landing in? Well,we're going to dig into so many
different things, but for thisconversation, I have cat joining
us again. Hello Cat
Kat Logan (00:58):
Logan, hey Indra, Hey everyone. It's great to be here.
Indra Klavins (01:02):
I am so glad. And last time we talked to you, we
were talking a little bit aboutagency life and what that's
like. So we're gonna, I'm surewe're gonna talk about imposter
syndrome in the context of justgenerally, and how it might show
up a little bit differently ifyou're on the agency side. But
let's, let's just go into it.You know, I know I remember the
(01:27):
first time that I startedhearing the phrase imposter
syndrome. Is very it was, itfelt like the buzzword of the
week in all the businessjournals, whether it was Harvard
Business Review or anywhereelse. And imposter syndrome,
imposter syndrome, impostersyndrome, and I've shared that.
I've shared those stories on anearlier episode. I would love to
(01:47):
hear you know, how did you landin the world of exploring
imposter syndrome for yourself,for your clients, for your
colleagues, all of that?
Kat Logan (01:55):
Yeah, yeah. I think it's an interesting question. So
I basically through my ownexperience. So last time I
chatted about landing in NewYork, got really lucky. I got a
job and agency. Life was reallyoverwhelming. You know, I had
worked before, but it was acompletely kind of different
(02:16):
environment. There were kind of,like codes of conduct and rules
that I wasn't aware of. And, youknow, I was good at the strategy
part, but I wasn't good at,like, navigating how we are with
clients, what to say, what notto say, all of that. And then on
top of that, I was working withpeople who had quite a bit of
agency experience, so I justfelt like I didn't belong there.
(02:38):
I thought I got the job out of afluke, and it was, it was pretty
stressful, and just my selfconfidence was really affected.
I think I went to work every dayand was like, I'm going to be
found out. I'm going to be firedat any time. Sorry. It was, it
was stressful, and then lateron, and that was kind of while
(02:59):
ago, but, you know, I've, I'vekind of discovered, through
talking to other people, that alot of other people felt the
same way. And then sincebecoming a coach, I really
found, like working with a lotof agency folks, that that is,
it's a big problem, and it's abig factor that a lot of people
go through.
Indra Klavins (03:15):
Frances fry has a lovely term called The Secret
memos, and the way she explainsthat to the way she explains it
is like, how you walk into aroom, let's say it's a dinner
party, and everybody knows whattheir what they knew what to
wear, they know who to talk to,they even know where to get
their beverage, or whatever itis, and you're standing in the
(03:36):
middle of the room being like,how did they all know this?
Like, how did they get thissecret memo? And I didn't. And
as you're talking about yourstory like, I'm like, Oh my
gosh, she didn't get all thesecret memos. Of like, how do
you talk to the client? How doyou dress how do you why are we
talking this way, this way inthis area, and that way in
another area? And no one'sexplaining it to you because
they don't. They they'veprobably internalized so much of
(04:00):
it themselves, of like, andthey've normalized it. They
don't realize that this needs tobe explained to people, you poor
thing.
Kat Logan (04:07):
Yeah, I mean, it was funny, like, more recently, I
managed someone who who didn'tgo like, she moved into strategy
kind of later in her career aswell, and she was like, I feel
like everyone went toadvertising school and I didn't.
And you know, people do go toadvertising school, you know, do
study it, but most of us don'tlike we come in through
different ways. And it's just sotrue that, you know, people who
(04:31):
have experience in agencies knowthese codes. They know, like,
you know the nuances and how toact and like, what to say and
all of that, and kind of feellike you're left out if you
didn't get those memos. Yeah,and I would say that
Indra Klavins (04:45):
it's probably I've met many men who feel like
they have imposter syndrome, butI'm more likely to find a woman
who feels like she has impostersyndrome, whether the label has
been applied to her by somebodyelse, and she's like, Oh, is
that what I have. I feel like,okay, or they themselves, like,
read it in a journal, and we'relooking for language just to
(05:06):
explain, like, what's going on.Like, why do I feel the way that
Kat Logan (05:09):
I do? Yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting
point. You know, I really don'twant to generalize, because this
doesn't, you know for every manand every woman, but what I
found in my own experience is,you know, women tend to think
more about how they show up,what they contribute. Are they
doing a good job? Are they not,you know, and so because of that
(05:30):
thought, you know, like theymight put together a deck and
share it, but they're thinking,Wait, does this meet the brief
that the client's expecting? Youknow, is this going to solve the
brand problem? But they're alsothinking, is this what my
colleagues expected? Is thislike what they thought? And
then, importantly, is this whatmy manager wants? And so there
are all these kind of differentlayers, you know, that that
(05:53):
women might go through and thinkabout where, you know, what I've
seen is a the tendency of theman to be like, show up, do the
deck. This is what I think itis. And maybe they get feedback
that's fine, they take it andit's done, and then their
confidence kind of, like servesthem well, because, you know,
more often than not, it'sprobably 80% right. But they
(06:14):
don't have those same thoughtsand stresses that can be quite
overwhelming and kind ofdraining, and in a lot of cases,
kinds of, kind of ends to, like,you know, cycles and cycles of
different versions and all ofthat. So I think that's, that's
one interesting thing wherewomen are more likely to have
imposter syndrome just becauseof that, you know, conscientious
(06:35):
effort to do a good job and toserve all of the different
layers that are involved inagency life,
Indra Klavins (06:42):
yeah, and the conditioning, like, let's, let's
call it out. Whether it's in oureducation systems or our work
cultures, there's a lot ofconditioning for women to worry
about everyone else, not justthemselves, and worry about all
these different pieces of it.But not to digress on that,
because I could go down thatrabbit hole that might be my
favorite rabbit hole to go down.But let's talk about the you
(07:03):
know, how did you startreframing, like, how did you
start reframing impostersyndrome, whether it was for
yourself, whether it was forcoaching clients, whichever way
it might be, yeah.
Kat Logan (07:16):
And when you say reframing, does that mean to
kind of overcome it?
Indra Klavins (07:21):
Yeah. Great question. I love making sure
that words mean the same thingfor both of us. Yeah. Like, how
did you start thinking about itdifferently, to not to not get
stuck in in because I could seeI'm imagining my earlier self
like, I've got my eyes closed,I've just got, like, my fingers,
my temples. I'm completelyimagining my early self just
(07:42):
like spiraling and spiraling andspiraling and just trying to,
like trying to be aperfectionist. I still remember
the day when I declared myself afailed perfectionist. It was a
good day. It was a very good daywhen I let go of that
perfectionism, like and that forme, was my it was a long
journey, but that was, I think,the first step to getting out of
(08:03):
some version of impostersyndrome, right? How do you? How
do you, or maybe even stilltoday, like, there are those
days where there's just, like, abad day when you're like, oh and
like, you just need to remindyourself and jolt yourself. No,
no. This is just that littlegremlin voice that all of us
have in our heads, talking andquestioning ourselves, like, how
do you get people or yourselfout of being in this mindset of
(08:26):
imposter syndrome and intosomething that's a little bit
more productive? Yeah?
Kat Logan (08:30):
I mean, it's such a great question. I think two
things like one overall andholistically. For me personally,
it was, it was just the benefitof time, unfortunately. So yeah,
it was like six to eight yearsinto my agency experience. I was
like, hang on, there are lots ofdifferent ways that people do
things. You know, as astrategist, there are like, a
(08:52):
million different ways you couldshow up as a strategist and have
different strengths. So for me,it was actually realizing that a
lot of other people were goingthrough the same thoughts and
that, you know, maybe I wasn'tgood at one area, but I was good
at another. And actually, I sawa coach, and they brought that
to life for me. So it was kindof years of experience. But then
also, you know, realizing thatadvertising is is very gray and
(09:16):
subjective. And so it almostlike breeds imposter syndrome,
in a sense because of that. Andso there's that part. But then I
think because of that, when you,when you think about the
everyday, it's, it's kind of notgetting into a cycle of the
imposter syndrome. And what I'vetalked about with my clients is
kind of imposter patterns, wherethe imposter syndrome that you
(09:38):
get kind of like drives you intoa pattern where you're trying to
overcome it by doing morewithout, like addressing it at a
bigger level. But I think stoppausing separating. Is this
actually true in my head? Am Iactually doing a deck and
completely failing and not doinganything right? Or is it just
that I need to take a step and.Like, go and talk to someone
(10:01):
else and bounce ideas off andsay, Actually, no, my thinking
is right. I just needed to,like, step away for a sec and
then trying to look at thingsobjectively as you do that. So I
think it's like, it's almostlike, if you think about that,
like cycle, and maybe you're on,like, a bike, cycling, cycling,
it's just like stopping the bikeand stepping off, and just like
(10:22):
separating reality from fiction
Indra Klavins (10:25):
that it's so many things are swirling in my brain.
I'll start with a practice thatI've learned from someone Byron
Katie is and I'll go through thefirst two questions. But you
know her, her practice that sheteaches is write it down, you
know, because the brain can foolitself a lot into all the
stories we tell ourselves, butwrite it down, what you're what
(10:45):
you believe I am terrible atthis job, and I'm never going to
succeed. So write it down. Andthen you stare at that
statement, and you say, is thattrue? Right? Like, is it
objectively true? And you whatyou're talking about is
literally that, like, and youdon't always have to write it
down, right? But like, as you'retraining yourself, you know,
(11:07):
write it down and say, Is that,am I a complete failure? Was
everyone thinking I was a totalloser? Like, what? Whatever
label we give to ourselves,starting there, that's such
great advice. Thank you
Kat Logan (11:19):
for that. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that it's, it's so
simple, but so helpful. I mean,I think what's tied to that too,
is, is when you look at what'sreal, like, you know, you do
look at, well, what are mystrengths and what are my
weaknesses? And, yeah, my ownexperience with a coach really
helped that. So I did theClifton Strengths Finder, there
(11:42):
are 36 strengths out there. Andwhen you do the test, you find
your top six. And I never reallythought about, you know, my
skill set and my strengths inthat way. And my coach was like,
okay, empathy is your number onestrength. And then when I
thought about that, I was like,that's interesting. I just
assumed everyone else had thatsame empathy. And when I spoke
(12:02):
up in meetings about thinkingabout this or that, and, you
know, maybe overthinking aboutthings, that was because of my
empathy, and I assumed everyoneelse had thought the same thing
but disregarded it, but I waslike, No, that's a strength
where I have stronger empathyfor the client, for the
consumer, for all of that, so Ican really utilize that. And
then when I looked at thingsthat were later down on the list
(12:25):
of strengths that I wasn't goodat, that was also helpful,
because I was like, Oh, I'vealways really admired this
person because of this, but it'snot something that comes
innately. So that's fine. Let mefocus on, how do I use my
empathy and how do I collaboratewith people that have strengths
that aren't mine, and it's okaynot everyone is going to be good
at everything. It's about howyou realize what you're good at,
(12:48):
how you utilize that, and howyou like work together with
other people, you know. So itsounds simple, but it's all
about, you know, using your ownstrengths, but working with
someone else when you know thatthere's kind of a deficiency in
a certain area.
Indra Klavins (13:02):
That is two of my favorite things you talked
about. So cliftonstrengthsfinder, a big fan. There's lots
of methodologies out there,there's lots of tools out there,
but I really like that one forthe exact reasons you said. It
gives you your top fivestrengths, not that you don't
have other strengths, but whatare your top five strengths? And
it encourages you to lean intothose, right? And find people to
(13:23):
surround yourself with who mighthave different strengths than
you do. Like, I am not Woo.Like, that's one of their
that's, that's the funnest oneto say out loud of their
strengths that they have listedthe 36 I am not Woo. And I know
that if I ever needed to do thewoo thing, I need to find
someone who's really good atWoo, or else it's gonna not go
so easily, right? And the otherthing that you're talking about
(13:44):
is getting a coach like that'snot necessarily available to
everyone, right? So there is youknow that whether they can't get
it through their company, theymay not have the budget for it,
but if you do have that, I'vegot to say, having a coach in my
life has been so helpful becauseit's not my boss, it's not HR,
it's not a friend, it's not apartner, it's not somebody who
(14:07):
it's somebody who looks atthings objectively, understands
the work world, not you know,and can help me navigate and
really reflect on what's reallygoing on and you know, and
overcome it, which is so vital,it's so useful, vital. You know,
that might be an overstatement,but so useful when you're
(14:27):
talking about something likeimposter syndrome.
Kat Logan (14:30):
Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've
said, and not just only becauseI'm a coach, but because I
right, and I think somethingthat I get really frustrated
about is, and I thought this waytoo. Like, I think people see
coaches and they're like, oh,it's gonna be like, rah, rah.
And they're gonna like, triggerthe answer, and great. But a
(14:52):
coach actually doesn't give youadvice. They're not like a
mentor. They actually unlockwhat's already inside of you.
And. So when you do see a coach,you know, especially like, if
you are in advertising in thatcontext, you know they're not
going to like show you somegolden door, but they're going
to work with you. They're goingto unlock things that are inside
of you about how things aregoing on, and they're going to
(15:14):
help you answer those questions,and help you answer, okay,
actually, no, cat, you're notjust like getting yourself in
things index because you're bad,it's because you're approaching
it in this way, but they helpyou unlock, like the answer to
things that have been holdingyou back. So you do kind of
reach that full potential, andyou do make decisions about your
(15:35):
career you know in a way that'sgoing to serve you best, because
there's no right way foreveryone, it's all individual,
and it's all based on where youare in that moment and what's
next for you.
Indra Klavins (15:47):
Yeah, and they see things in from a different
lens too. Like something thatwe've talked about the last time
we we spoke was around like howclient tastes and preferences
can play into your work life,including how you view your
work, and by extension,yourself, like, if they don't
(16:07):
like that shade of orange, forwhatever reason, because
somebody in in like, fifth gradedecided to throw an orange, you
know, pot of paint at them, andit happens to match. How would
you have ever known, right? Idon't know if you'll ever know
that. That's the reason theydon't like orange, which can be
like, Hey, how? How would youhave known that they were going
(16:28):
to react poorly to orange? Thebrief said, We love things that
warm colors, not yellow, notred. And of course, you chose
orange like before you thinklike they help you to separate
that, because they don't havethat. They have a stake in your
success. They don't have a stakein, let's say the project
Kat Logan (16:46):
work, so to speak. Yeah, that's such a great, great
point. And I think especially,and we talked about this a
little bit last time. You know,when you're in an agency, the
smallest thing can seem like thebiggest thing. You can debate a
color orange for weeks on end agoal, or is it an objective? You
know, like, what word are wegoing to use? Or, Oh, wait, you
(17:08):
put that word in. That's atrigger point for the client.
Take it out, and you can get sohung up on like things. And when
you do see a coach, it reallydoes open you up to what
actually is the bigger thinggoing on. It helps you put
things in perspective. And Ithink, like, it helps you break
out of the imposter syndromethat you've been in, where
(17:28):
you've been like, maybe stressedand anxious because you chose
the wrong color, orange for adeck when you're actually like,
No, you also did this, this andthis this week. And isn't that
amazing? And what are you reallywhat have you really achieved in
an agency or, you know, in thelast month, and that can be much
more impactful for that personto remember and think about,
(17:50):
yeah,
Indra Klavins (17:50):
because not every people leader, not every mentor,
not every person you look up toor has Some sort of authority in
your career has gone throughreally good, solid training that
helps them be that person.Because, I mean, I've got
episodes on this for days aroundwhat it gets you to be, what the
(18:11):
success that gets you to thepoint where somebody says, Hey,
you should be a people manager.Is rarely the same set of skills
that you use when you'reactually, literally a people
manager. Those are two verydifferent skill sets, so and not
and that transition into peopleleadership is very poorly
supported. So when those peopleso you have to give your people
manager Grace if they're notable to give you that
(18:32):
perspective, and they're stuckin some sort of minutia, or
whatever it might be, or somefixed thinking of one sort or
another, and that's where thecoach comes in.
Unknown (18:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
Indra Klavins (18:44):
Where were you in your career stage when you
actually started using a coach?I'm just curious.
Kat Logan (18:50):
I I was a strategy director, and I think I it was,
like, too late. I feel likeeveryone in avidness should have
a coach, if they can, as yousaid it, yeah. But I was, yeah,
like, I was like, looking for anew job. And I was at a stage
where I was, you know, doubtingmyself, and I was like, I don't
(19:14):
know. I need to get out ofadvertising. I'm not good at it
anymore. And, you know, seeing acoach really helped, you know,
strengthen, you know, myunderstanding of my own skills,
like what I brought to the tableas a strategy director, which is
really invaluable, but that,that is an interesting question,
because I think, like somethingthat's connected to last
session, when we talked aboutthe messy middle, I think, you
(19:37):
know, it's, it's pretty commonfor people to have executive
coaching in advertising. Youknow, the Chief Strategy
officers, the heads of agency,in most cases, have coaches, and
you know, that's hugelyinvaluable for them, and then
the teams that they lead, butit's hard, because the leaders
in the middle who are oftenmanaging a lot of people, but.
(20:00):
Who are great at their jobs, atthe technical side, but haven't
got that support from a peoplemanagement point of view, don't
have coaches. You know, it's notcommon for leadership coaching
to exist for directors, forgroup directors, and I think
that's a huge opportunity foragencies, because, you know, for
those people to have a coach,they get better at leading, and
(20:21):
they make more of an impact. Butit's the ripple effect, you
know, if, if a director or agroup director has a coach,
they're better able to manage upto like, you know, be more
efficient in terms of like, youknow, what their leaders need.
They're better able to work withclients to deliver value, to see
where there's scope opportunityto better serve those clients,
(20:42):
and then, most importantly,they're better leaders, you
know, to the more junior peopleon their team. And that's
crucial, because, you know,agencies are tough. There's a
lot going on. We're all superbusy, but if you have a great
manager, someone that's like,mentoring you, seeing you for
like, who you are, seeing theskills you're bringing seeing
where you're really strong, butseeing you know, where you're
(21:04):
not like having a great managerwho's become that way because
they've got a coach is huge. Andit also results in, like, people
staying around, you know, peoplenot going through the revolving
door that we talked about,people having greater loyalty to
an agency, to working there, todelivering more of their time
(21:24):
and effort there, which ishugely invaluable,
Indra Klavins (21:26):
say that looping back on something you're talking
about earlier, I'd say that'smore important even for women,
because of the conditioning,because of the socialization
that women have gone through,where we're taught to be small,
right? That's in a lot of ways,you know, like, it's not to say
that everyone has has the sameconditioning, but, you know, a
(21:49):
lot of the advice that I'vereceived from men, I still
remember one particular rolethat I was in where they were
doing 360 views every four 360reviews for everyone in the
company every four months. Itwas insane. And the feedback
that was that would come to thewomen was how they should
behave. They need to act withmore presence and more authority
and more this and more that. Sothe first time they did these
(22:13):
360s I gathered all the women,and because I'm like, I'm like,
I'm going to do this at scale,because all of you are coming to
me separately, and I have thesame feelings. What the men
didn't recognize their feedbackwas well intended, useful for
many, but if, if they if I hadused, if I had applied, I'll
(22:35):
just use my own feedback. If Ihad applied, the feedback that
they had given to me, I will becalled a raging bee and been
sent to packing like it doesn'tthe same advice doesn't apply,
which is why it can't be appliednecessarily. Which is why it's
so important to have a coach tohelp women navigate through this
(22:55):
and work and find their ownidentities that has that
authority but is still genuine.It's still not too, you know,
not too nasty or whatever wordthey want to throw at us, right?
But it still can be received.And that is part of that
imposter syndrome, because wekeep on trying to do we try to
(23:16):
do it our way. It doesn't work.We try to do it the way that
folks give us advice to do thatdoesn't work, and having a coach
that find helps us find our ownthird way is
Kat Logan (23:26):
so useful. I can agree more. I mean, I think that
the women leaders I reallyrespect and look up to, you
know, have been able to kind ofdevelop their own authentic
presence in their leadershipcapacity. You know, you still
see them as human and as amazingleaders, but it's that human
(23:47):
element I think that makes adifference. You know, they're
not saying things confidentlyfor the sake of saying things.
They're saying things in a waythat comes from, you know,
they're in heart and head, andthey're doing things that way.
And I think you brought up sucha great point where there's such
a gap, you know, where men don'tunderstand that women need to
find their voice in an authenticway. It's not about coming in
(24:10):
and sounding confident andsaying this and saying that and
guiding this person or thatperson. It's about, you know,
developing their own voice andtheir own way of leading as
well, because it lookscompletely different for for
everyone, you know, some peopleare really, really great at
managing everyone at the sametime. Big team for other
leaders, it's, you know, moreindividual connections, and
(24:32):
that's where they can really,like have impact. And I think
there needs to be more focus onon that, and the fact that like
people have such individualleadership skills, and those
need to be fostered andnurtured. So I think that's a
huge opportunity, because in somany ways, I think we're still
looking to a stereotypicalvision of what leadership is in
(24:54):
agencies. And I also think it'sinteresting because, you know,
because of that. Women don'thave the same confidence. I
mean, when you look at and I'lljust say this bluntly, like all
of the independent, smallagencies that are out there that
are being founded, there aren'ta lot of women doing that. It's
mostly men. And I think it'sbecause they have that inbred
(25:15):
confidence to do that and say,you know, I love creativity, I
have great ideas, I have greatclient relationships. I'm going
to go and start my agency. Thereare a lot, not a lot of women
doing that, because they haven'thad that same confidence given
to them. And they also, again,to be bluntly, I think they
think more about it. Okay, whatdoes that mean? Would I be able
to, like, support a team and doso, you know, like, consciously,
(25:39):
would I be able to deliver, youknow, high quality to clients. I
think there's, there's morethought that kind of goes into
that for women, which, which ismaybe why there aren't as many
like female founders in theadvertising space, which
hopefully changes in the future.Yeah, two things come to mind.
It's the the technology spaces,Silicon Valleys, move fast and
(26:00):
break things like and women aremove. Women are okay with moving
fast, but they want to fixthings more likely. These are
broad generalizations,
Indra Klavins (26:09):
but what you're talking about is that there are
so few role models, and whichmeans, as the world is changing,
as rapidly as it has been, likeI think back to so today I wear
my pearls for Carla, CarlaHarris, Carla's pearls, she,
she's a remarkable human being,but she but there are, there are
the there are a relative handfulof women leaders that are really
(26:34):
well known globally ornationwide or within an industry
like if I'm thinkingadvertising, I think of a Cindy
gallop, I would be hard pressedto think of many other women
beyond that, right? So the rolemodels that we have are not that
many, and the reality of it is,is that there are. As the world
(26:56):
is changing, that means that thevariety of ways of leading is
not as broad as, let's say, aman has, because they have more
choices and more role models toselect from, like, oh, that
doesn't work for me, but thatone does, which means we're more
likely to find our own model andour own path, because it may not
exist yet, or it may not bevisible yet. Yeah.
Kat Logan (27:16):
I mean, I think that's so true. It is so hard
for women because they're like,Okay, which path Am I like,
being inspired by, or, you know,following, and it doesn't exist.
And, you know, I think you kindof hit the nail on the head when
you also said the fixing thingsas well. Because I think the
(27:36):
women I've seen in agencies, youknow, where their value is is
often behind the scenes. It'slike, oh, wait, the deck doesn't
have this component, which theclient said was super important
back then. Or is like noticing,you know, you know, maybe a
junior account person that isn'tdoing as well and kind of needs
additional support andmentorship that maybe other
(27:57):
leaders, you know, didn't noticeand didn't see. It's, it's kind
of in the fixing things behindthe scenes, where men are kind
of like conditioned to step moreconfidently into the the
leadership roles that kind ofget more attention, better
promoted, and all of that. But,you know, different, but, yeah,
(28:18):
like women just kind of aren'trewarded at the moment in the
way that the system is inadvertising, I'd
Indra Klavins (28:24):
say that's universal. I mean, it's the
invisible labor that happens.It's not on a career ladder. And
you're right. There is a largesegment of the population that
only does things that they'llget rewarded for, but it's more
likely for a woman to pick upthe work that they know they
won't get rewarded for but theyknow it's intrinsic. It's so
important for the team successthat they'll do it anyway. And
(28:47):
then comes review time, and theydon't have enough, they don't
get rewarded for it. That's awhole nother. That's, that might
be my favorite, favorite rabbithole. I'm finding all my
favorite rabbit holes with you.But yeah, no, there's, there's
so many different pieces ofthis. And you know, I think the
one of the things that you'vebeen working on is called Raw to
roar. Can we talk a little bitabout that? Can you tell
everyone a little bit about whatyou've been thinking around raw
(29:09):
to roar, roar, and spell thatout for everyone to make sure
that they hear it properly.
Kat Logan (29:14):
It's a little confusing when you say it,
because there are two words thatare different that sound the
same. But raw to roar is fromraw, which is R, A, W, to raw,
which is R, O, A, R, which ismore like raw, like a lion. But
the idea came because I have acoach, Shannon Kelly, who I
(29:35):
love, who's much moreexperienced in the coaching
world than me, but her brand iscoaching raw, and it's all about
celebrating. The coaching sidethat allows you to let go, to
get raw with your feelings andwhat's going on. And I've
developed a women's circlethat's going to be happening
every month, starting March 18,and basically it's to help women
(29:58):
get raw with what's going on.On, you know, it's purposely on
a Wednesday hump day to kind oflet go of, you know, everything
that's happened at work thatday, that week, that things like
going to meetings and beinglike, told things that are
blatantly wrong, but beingsurrounded by people where you
can't really speak back and sayNo, that's wrong because of
this, or being gas lit, but kindof really realizing after and
(30:21):
being like, you know, you know Fthat, but there are so many
things that women deal with thatyou know do are hard to process,
because in the day to day, youcan't let go because you're too
busy delivering your job. Butit's also just like, you're not
going to be rewarded for kind ofspeaking back or kind of
correcting someone. So the ideais to help people get raw, to
(30:43):
have a space where they can kindof let go of that, but then
leave at the end of it, at theend of 90 minutes roaring, you
know, we want women to go outthere to find their inner
authority, to find ways to bepresent, to not let small
things, you know, let get themdown, but to give them practical
and pragmatic tips on how to bein a structure and in a
(31:04):
patriarchal environment thatwasn't built for them. So I'm
really excited for it. It's it'smeant to be both reflective and
a safe space, but also pragmaticin terms of, like, what we're
enabling women to kind of leavewith, hopefully. So that's a
little bit about
Indra Klavins (31:21):
so excited, and I'm making sure that this
episode gets released beforethat, so if there are still
seats available, that I willmake sure that those links,
along with everything else aboutyou is in the show notes, so
that, yeah, so so they can takeadvantage of that, because,
because those spaces, thosespaces where you're able to get
raw, be honest, be vulnerable,be authentic. Are so vital.
(31:46):
They're so vital because I thinkthat I like to use it's I, you
get to understand what'stypical. I don't like to
normalize bad behavior or badpatterns, right? But you get to
understand what's typical, thatit's not you. You can let go of
that imposter syndrome to pullthat all together, right? All of
our threads together, and thenyou can step into your next day,
(32:11):
even as a stronger, better, moreroar, self, R, A, O, R, cell,
and do the amazing things thatyou are put here to do, which is
so incredible. I'm so happy thatyou're doing this.
Kat Logan (32:27):
Thank you. And I loved how you brought it all
together. Because I think theone thing with imposter syndrome
is the hardest is it happens insuch small ways. Like, you know,
you could look back on a yearand be like, Oh, I did the this
and this and that. But likeduring that year, you know,
daily, you're stressed andanxious about this or that, and
that constant conditioning oflike, I'm not doing a job that's
(32:51):
good enough, is so exhaustingand puts so much pressure on
women and draws away from, youknow, their focus on creativity
and on doing the big things,where, again, to be blunt, I
don't think men have that samestress and pressure, and so, you
know, they're more able to goand do the big things, to start
an agency to do all that, wherewomen do process more and do
(33:15):
need those spaces. So, yeah,
Indra Klavins (33:19):
so I think we're both encouraging everyone who's
listening stop and resist. Oh,don't someone say stop, because
it's hard to stop, resist askingyourself, what's wrong with you,
right? And really start thinkinglike, what is my What am I
responding to? Like, what? Whatis the environment? What are the
structures that might be causingme to feel that I am the way
(33:39):
that I am, and how can I, howcan I find the right support for
myself, whether it's, you know,writing things down. We talked
about, yes, I love that. I thinkwrite things down, just pause,
go for a walk, you know, leavethe computer, go outside. And I
think, find mentors, find, youknow, managers find, like, women
(34:01):
in other agencies you can, kindof like, have a safe space with
and kind of like talk aboutthings outside of your own
environment, find women to kindof look up to, done it well, but
kind of get outside of the,like, the nitty gritty cycle
that you can kind of be on, youknow, in your agency job and
yeah, have that space to kind oflike pause, reset and come back
(34:26):
with a little bit more in ourauthority and how you approach
things. And if you don't have ahuman who can be your mentor,
find, like a live IRL human orvirtual human that you can
connect with. Find a book, finda podcast. There are so many,
like other names, DebbieMillman, the way that she
manages life. You know, I lovethe fixable podcast with Anne
(34:46):
Mars and Francis fry. We cantalk about Brene Brown. We can
talk about so many others. Findthe one that suits you. Find the
person that you can reflectwith, if you can do that like in
real time, fantastic, if not,find somebody virtually or. Or
like representationally, andjust one step at a time, one
breath at a time, sometimesyou've got this, you've got
(35:08):
this. I love that. Indra, that'ssuch great advice. Kat, thank
you for joining me twice. I feellike you might visit me again. I
hope that you got something outof it. I trust that you got
something out of this episode.And I also hope you all join us
next time for another topic fromthe messy middle bye, everyone
Kat Logan (35:27):
bye, thanks Indra.
Indra Klavins (35:34):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it.
If you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(35:54):
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com, or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey this
work is better when we do ittogether, until next time you.
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, welcomeback to the messy middle
matters. Today we are talkingabout one of my more favorite
topics to talk about, ingeneral, and we're going to be
(00:27):
joined again by a familiar voiceand a familiar face. So today
we're talking about impostersyndrome, all the different
facets, how it's labeled, whenit's labeled, what the root
causes of it might be? Is it? Isit something that's internal to
you? Is it something that'sstructural in the environment
(00:49):
that you're landing in? Well,we're going to dig into so many
different things, but for thisconversation, I have cat joining
us again. Hello Cat
Kat Logan (00:58):
Logan, hey Indra, Hey everyone. It's great to be here.
Indra Klavins (01:02):
I am so glad. And last time we talked to you, we
were talking a little bit aboutagency life and what that's
like. So we're gonna, I'm surewe're gonna talk about imposter
syndrome in the context of justgenerally, and how it might show
up a little bit differently ifyou're on the agency side. But
let's, let's just go into it.You know, I know I remember the
(01:27):
first time that I startedhearing the phrase imposter
syndrome. Is very it was, itfelt like the buzzword of the
week in all the businessjournals, whether it was Harvard
Business Review or anywhereelse. And imposter syndrome,
imposter syndrome, impostersyndrome, and I've shared that.
I've shared those stories on anearlier episode. I would love to
(01:47):
hear you know, how did you landin the world of exploring
imposter syndrome for yourself,for your clients, for your
colleagues, all of that?
Kat Logan (01:55):
Yeah, yeah. I think it's an interesting question. So
I basically through my ownexperience. So last time I
chatted about landing in NewYork, got really lucky. I got a
job and agency. Life was reallyoverwhelming. You know, I had
worked before, but it was acompletely kind of different
(02:16):
environment. There were kind of,like codes of conduct and rules
that I wasn't aware of. And, youknow, I was good at the strategy
part, but I wasn't good at,like, navigating how we are with
clients, what to say, what notto say, all of that. And then on
top of that, I was working withpeople who had quite a bit of
agency experience, so I justfelt like I didn't belong there.
(02:38):
I thought I got the job out of afluke, and it was, it was pretty
stressful, and just my selfconfidence was really affected.
I think I went to work every dayand was like, I'm going to be
found out. I'm going to be firedat any time. Sorry. It was, it
was stressful, and then lateron, and that was kind of while
(02:59):
ago, but, you know, I've, I'vekind of discovered, through
talking to other people, that alot of other people felt the
same way. And then sincebecoming a coach, I really
found, like working with a lotof agency folks, that that is,
it's a big problem, and it's abig factor that a lot of people
go through.
Indra Klavins (03:15):
Frances fry has a lovely term called The Secret
memos, and the way she explainsthat to the way she explains it
is like, how you walk into aroom, let's say it's a dinner
party, and everybody knows whattheir what they knew what to
wear, they know who to talk to,they even know where to get
their beverage, or whatever itis, and you're standing in the
(03:36):
middle of the room being like,how did they all know this?
Like, how did they get thissecret memo? And I didn't. And
as you're talking about yourstory like, I'm like, Oh my
gosh, she didn't get all thesecret memos. Of like, how do
you talk to the client? How doyou dress how do you why are we
talking this way, this way inthis area, and that way in
another area? And no one'sexplaining it to you because
they don't. They they'veprobably internalized so much of
(04:00):
it themselves, of like, andthey've normalized it. They
don't realize that this needs tobe explained to people, you poor
thing.
Kat Logan (04:07):
Yeah, I mean, it was funny, like, more recently, I
managed someone who who didn'tgo like, she moved into strategy
kind of later in her career aswell, and she was like, I feel
like everyone went toadvertising school and I didn't.
And you know, people do go toadvertising school, you know, do
study it, but most of us don'tlike we come in through
different ways. And it's just sotrue that, you know, people who
(04:31):
have experience in agencies knowthese codes. They know, like,
you know the nuances and how toact and like, what to say and
all of that, and kind of feellike you're left out if you
didn't get those memos. Yeah,and I would say that
Indra Klavins (04:45):
it's probably I've met many men who feel like
they have imposter syndrome, butI'm more likely to find a woman
who feels like she has impostersyndrome, whether the label has
been applied to her by somebodyelse, and she's like, Oh, is
that what I have. I feel like,okay, or they themselves, like,
read it in a journal, and we'relooking for language just to
(05:06):
explain, like, what's going on.Like, why do I feel the way that
Kat Logan (05:09):
I do? Yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting
point. You know, I really don'twant to generalize, because this
doesn't, you know for every manand every woman, but what I
found in my own experience is,you know, women tend to think
more about how they show up,what they contribute. Are they
doing a good job? Are they not,you know, and so because of that
(05:30):
thought, you know, like theymight put together a deck and
share it, but they're thinking,Wait, does this meet the brief
that the client's expecting? Youknow, is this going to solve the
brand problem? But they're alsothinking, is this what my
colleagues expected? Is thislike what they thought? And
then, importantly, is this whatmy manager wants? And so there
are all these kind of differentlayers, you know, that that
(05:53):
women might go through and thinkabout where, you know, what I've
seen is a the tendency of theman to be like, show up, do the
deck. This is what I think itis. And maybe they get feedback
that's fine, they take it andit's done, and then their
confidence kind of, like servesthem well, because, you know,
more often than not, it'sprobably 80% right. But they
(06:14):
don't have those same thoughtsand stresses that can be quite
overwhelming and kind ofdraining, and in a lot of cases,
kinds of, kind of ends to, like,you know, cycles and cycles of
different versions and all ofthat. So I think that's, that's
one interesting thing wherewomen are more likely to have
imposter syndrome just becauseof that, you know, conscientious
(06:35):
effort to do a good job and toserve all of the different
layers that are involved inagency life,
Indra Klavins (06:42):
yeah, and the conditioning, like, let's, let's
call it out. Whether it's in oureducation systems or our work
cultures, there's a lot ofconditioning for women to worry
about everyone else, not justthemselves, and worry about all
these different pieces of it.But not to digress on that,
because I could go down thatrabbit hole that might be my
favorite rabbit hole to go down.But let's talk about the you
(07:03):
know, how did you startreframing, like, how did you
start reframing impostersyndrome, whether it was for
yourself, whether it was forcoaching clients, whichever way
it might be, yeah.
Kat Logan (07:16):
And when you say reframing, does that mean to
kind of overcome it?
Indra Klavins (07:21):
Yeah. Great question. I love making sure
that words mean the same thingfor both of us. Yeah. Like, how
did you start thinking about itdifferently, to not to not get
stuck in in because I could seeI'm imagining my earlier self
like, I've got my eyes closed,I've just got, like, my fingers,
my temples. I'm completelyimagining my early self just
(07:42):
like spiraling and spiraling andspiraling and just trying to,
like trying to be aperfectionist. I still remember
the day when I declared myself afailed perfectionist. It was a
good day. It was a very good daywhen I let go of that
perfectionism, like and that forme, was my it was a long
journey, but that was, I think,the first step to getting out of
(08:03):
some version of impostersyndrome, right? How do you? How
do you, or maybe even stilltoday, like, there are those
days where there's just, like, abad day when you're like, oh and
like, you just need to remindyourself and jolt yourself. No,
no. This is just that littlegremlin voice that all of us
have in our heads, talking andquestioning ourselves, like, how
do you get people or yourselfout of being in this mindset of
(08:26):
imposter syndrome and intosomething that's a little bit
more productive? Yeah?
Kat Logan (08:30):
I mean, it's such a great question. I think two
things like one overall andholistically. For me personally,
it was, it was just the benefitof time, unfortunately. So yeah,
it was like six to eight yearsinto my agency experience. I was
like, hang on, there are lots ofdifferent ways that people do
things. You know, as astrategist, there are like, a
(08:52):
million different ways you couldshow up as a strategist and have
different strengths. So for me,it was actually realizing that a
lot of other people were goingthrough the same thoughts and
that, you know, maybe I wasn'tgood at one area, but I was good
at another. And actually, I sawa coach, and they brought that
to life for me. So it was kindof years of experience. But then
also, you know, realizing thatadvertising is is very gray and
(09:16):
subjective. And so it almostlike breeds imposter syndrome,
in a sense because of that. Andso there's that part. But then I
think because of that, when you,when you think about the
everyday, it's, it's kind of notgetting into a cycle of the
imposter syndrome. And what I'vetalked about with my clients is
kind of imposter patterns, wherethe imposter syndrome that you
(09:38):
get kind of like drives you intoa pattern where you're trying to
overcome it by doing morewithout, like addressing it at a
bigger level. But I think stoppausing separating. Is this
actually true in my head? Am Iactually doing a deck and
completely failing and not doinganything right? Or is it just
that I need to take a step and.Like, go and talk to someone
(10:01):
else and bounce ideas off andsay, Actually, no, my thinking
is right. I just needed to,like, step away for a sec and
then trying to look at thingsobjectively as you do that. So I
think it's like, it's almostlike, if you think about that,
like cycle, and maybe you're on,like, a bike, cycling, cycling,
it's just like stopping the bikeand stepping off, and just like
(10:22):
separating reality from fiction
Indra Klavins (10:25):
that it's so many things are swirling in my brain.
I'll start with a practice thatI've learned from someone Byron
Katie is and I'll go through thefirst two questions. But you
know her, her practice that sheteaches is write it down, you
know, because the brain can foolitself a lot into all the
stories we tell ourselves, butwrite it down, what you're what
(10:45):
you believe I am terrible atthis job, and I'm never going to
succeed. So write it down. Andthen you stare at that
statement, and you say, is thattrue? Right? Like, is it
objectively true? And you whatyou're talking about is
literally that, like, and youdon't always have to write it
down, right? But like, as you'retraining yourself, you know,
(11:07):
write it down and say, Is that,am I a complete failure? Was
everyone thinking I was a totalloser? Like, what? Whatever
label we give to ourselves,starting there, that's such
great advice. Thank you
Kat Logan (11:19):
for that. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that it's, it's so
simple, but so helpful. I mean,I think what's tied to that too,
is, is when you look at what'sreal, like, you know, you do
look at, well, what are mystrengths and what are my
weaknesses? And, yeah, my ownexperience with a coach really
helped that. So I did theClifton Strengths Finder, there
(11:42):
are 36 strengths out there. Andwhen you do the test, you find
your top six. And I never reallythought about, you know, my
skill set and my strengths inthat way. And my coach was like,
okay, empathy is your number onestrength. And then when I
thought about that, I was like,that's interesting. I just
assumed everyone else had thatsame empathy. And when I spoke
(12:02):
up in meetings about thinkingabout this or that, and, you
know, maybe overthinking aboutthings, that was because of my
empathy, and I assumed everyoneelse had thought the same thing
but disregarded it, but I waslike, No, that's a strength
where I have stronger empathyfor the client, for the
consumer, for all of that, so Ican really utilize that. And
then when I looked at thingsthat were later down on the list
(12:25):
of strengths that I wasn't goodat, that was also helpful,
because I was like, Oh, I'vealways really admired this
person because of this, but it'snot something that comes
innately. So that's fine. Let mefocus on, how do I use my
empathy and how do I collaboratewith people that have strengths
that aren't mine, and it's okaynot everyone is going to be good
at everything. It's about howyou realize what you're good at,
(12:48):
how you utilize that, and howyou like work together with
other people, you know. So itsounds simple, but it's all
about, you know, using your ownstrengths, but working with
someone else when you know thatthere's kind of a deficiency in
a certain area.
Indra Klavins (13:02):
That is two of my favorite things you talked
about. So cliftonstrengthsfinder, a big fan. There's lots
of methodologies out there,there's lots of tools out there,
but I really like that one forthe exact reasons you said. It
gives you your top fivestrengths, not that you don't
have other strengths, but whatare your top five strengths? And
it encourages you to lean intothose, right? And find people to
(13:23):
surround yourself with who mighthave different strengths than
you do. Like, I am not Woo.Like, that's one of their
that's, that's the funnest oneto say out loud of their
strengths that they have listedthe 36 I am not Woo. And I know
that if I ever needed to do thewoo thing, I need to find
someone who's really good atWoo, or else it's gonna not go
so easily, right? And the otherthing that you're talking about
(13:44):
is getting a coach like that'snot necessarily available to
everyone, right? So there is youknow that whether they can't get
it through their company, theymay not have the budget for it,
but if you do have that, I'vegot to say, having a coach in my
life has been so helpful becauseit's not my boss, it's not HR,
it's not a friend, it's not apartner, it's not somebody who
(14:07):
it's somebody who looks atthings objectively, understands
the work world, not you know,and can help me navigate and
really reflect on what's reallygoing on and you know, and
overcome it, which is so vital,it's so useful, vital. You know,
that might be an overstatement,but so useful when you're
(14:27):
talking about something likeimposter syndrome.
Kat Logan (14:30):
Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've
said, and not just only becauseI'm a coach, but because I
right, and I think somethingthat I get really frustrated
about is, and I thought this waytoo. Like, I think people see
coaches and they're like, oh,it's gonna be like, rah, rah.
And they're gonna like, triggerthe answer, and great. But a
(14:52):
coach actually doesn't give youadvice. They're not like a
mentor. They actually unlockwhat's already inside of you.
And. So when you do see a coach,you know, especially like, if
you are in advertising in thatcontext, you know they're not
going to like show you somegolden door, but they're going
to work with you. They're goingto unlock things that are inside
of you about how things aregoing on, and they're going to
(15:14):
help you answer those questions,and help you answer, okay,
actually, no, cat, you're notjust like getting yourself in
things index because you're bad,it's because you're approaching
it in this way, but they helpyou unlock, like the answer to
things that have been holdingyou back. So you do kind of
reach that full potential, andyou do make decisions about your
(15:35):
career you know in a way that'sgoing to serve you best, because
there's no right way foreveryone, it's all individual,
and it's all based on where youare in that moment and what's
next for you.
Indra Klavins (15:47):
Yeah, and they see things in from a different
lens too. Like something thatwe've talked about the last time
we we spoke was around like howclient tastes and preferences
can play into your work life,including how you view your
work, and by extension,yourself, like, if they don't
(16:07):
like that shade of orange, forwhatever reason, because
somebody in in like, fifth gradedecided to throw an orange, you
know, pot of paint at them, andit happens to match. How would
you have ever known, right? Idon't know if you'll ever know
that. That's the reason theydon't like orange, which can be
like, Hey, how? How would youhave known that they were going
(16:28):
to react poorly to orange? Thebrief said, We love things that
warm colors, not yellow, notred. And of course, you chose
orange like before you thinklike they help you to separate
that, because they don't havethat. They have a stake in your
success. They don't have a stakein, let's say the project
Kat Logan (16:46):
work, so to speak. Yeah, that's such a great, great
point. And I think especially,and we talked about this a
little bit last time. You know,when you're in an agency, the
smallest thing can seem like thebiggest thing. You can debate a
color orange for weeks on end agoal, or is it an objective? You
know, like, what word are wegoing to use? Or, Oh, wait, you
(17:08):
put that word in. That's atrigger point for the client.
Take it out, and you can get sohung up on like things. And when
you do see a coach, it reallydoes open you up to what
actually is the bigger thinggoing on. It helps you put
things in perspective. And Ithink, like, it helps you break
out of the imposter syndromethat you've been in, where
(17:28):
you've been like, maybe stressedand anxious because you chose
the wrong color, orange for adeck when you're actually like,
No, you also did this, this andthis this week. And isn't that
amazing? And what are you reallywhat have you really achieved in
an agency or, you know, in thelast month, and that can be much
more impactful for that personto remember and think about,
(17:50):
yeah,
Indra Klavins (17:50):
because not every people leader, not every mentor,
not every person you look up toor has Some sort of authority in
your career has gone throughreally good, solid training that
helps them be that person.Because, I mean, I've got
episodes on this for days aroundwhat it gets you to be, what the
(18:11):
success that gets you to thepoint where somebody says, Hey,
you should be a people manager.Is rarely the same set of skills
that you use when you'reactually, literally a people
manager. Those are two verydifferent skill sets, so and not
and that transition into peopleleadership is very poorly
supported. So when those peopleso you have to give your people
manager Grace if they're notable to give you that
(18:32):
perspective, and they're stuckin some sort of minutia, or
whatever it might be, or somefixed thinking of one sort or
another, and that's where thecoach comes in.
Unknown (18:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
Indra Klavins (18:44):
Where were you in your career stage when you
actually started using a coach?I'm just curious.
Kat Logan (18:50):
I I was a strategy director, and I think I it was,
like, too late. I feel likeeveryone in avidness should have
a coach, if they can, as yousaid it, yeah. But I was, yeah,
like, I was like, looking for anew job. And I was at a stage
where I was, you know, doubtingmyself, and I was like, I don't
(19:14):
know. I need to get out ofadvertising. I'm not good at it
anymore. And, you know, seeing acoach really helped, you know,
strengthen, you know, myunderstanding of my own skills,
like what I brought to the tableas a strategy director, which is
really invaluable, but that,that is an interesting question,
because I think, like somethingthat's connected to last
session, when we talked aboutthe messy middle, I think, you
(19:37):
know, it's, it's pretty commonfor people to have executive
coaching in advertising. Youknow, the Chief Strategy
officers, the heads of agency,in most cases, have coaches, and
you know, that's hugelyinvaluable for them, and then
the teams that they lead, butit's hard, because the leaders
in the middle who are oftenmanaging a lot of people, but.
(20:00):
Who are great at their jobs, atthe technical side, but haven't
got that support from a peoplemanagement point of view, don't
have coaches. You know, it's notcommon for leadership coaching
to exist for directors, forgroup directors, and I think
that's a huge opportunity foragencies, because, you know, for
those people to have a coach,they get better at leading, and
(20:21):
they make more of an impact. Butit's the ripple effect, you
know, if, if a director or agroup director has a coach,
they're better able to manage upto like, you know, be more
efficient in terms of like, youknow, what their leaders need.
They're better able to work withclients to deliver value, to see
where there's scope opportunityto better serve those clients,
(20:42):
and then, most importantly,they're better leaders, you
know, to the more junior peopleon their team. And that's
crucial, because, you know,agencies are tough. There's a
lot going on. We're all superbusy, but if you have a great
manager, someone that's like,mentoring you, seeing you for
like, who you are, seeing theskills you're bringing seeing
where you're really strong, butseeing you know, where you're
(21:04):
not like having a great managerwho's become that way because
they've got a coach is huge. Andit also results in, like, people
staying around, you know, peoplenot going through the revolving
door that we talked about,people having greater loyalty to
an agency, to working there, todelivering more of their time
(21:24):
and effort there, which ishugely invaluable,
Indra Klavins (21:26):
say that looping back on something you're talking
about earlier, I'd say that'smore important even for women,
because of the conditioning,because of the socialization
that women have gone through,where we're taught to be small,
right? That's in a lot of ways,you know, like, it's not to say
that everyone has has the sameconditioning, but, you know, a
(21:49):
lot of the advice that I'vereceived from men, I still
remember one particular rolethat I was in where they were
doing 360 views every four 360reviews for everyone in the
company every four months. Itwas insane. And the feedback
that was that would come to thewomen was how they should
behave. They need to act withmore presence and more authority
and more this and more that. Sothe first time they did these
(22:13):
360s I gathered all the women,and because I'm like, I'm like,
I'm going to do this at scale,because all of you are coming to
me separately, and I have thesame feelings. What the men
didn't recognize their feedbackwas well intended, useful for
many, but if, if they if I hadused, if I had applied, I'll
(22:35):
just use my own feedback. If Ihad applied, the feedback that
they had given to me, I will becalled a raging bee and been
sent to packing like it doesn'tthe same advice doesn't apply,
which is why it can't be appliednecessarily. Which is why it's
so important to have a coach tohelp women navigate through this
(22:55):
and work and find their ownidentities that has that
authority but is still genuine.It's still not too, you know,
not too nasty or whatever wordthey want to throw at us, right?
But it still can be received.And that is part of that
imposter syndrome, because wekeep on trying to do we try to
(23:16):
do it our way. It doesn't work.We try to do it the way that
folks give us advice to do thatdoesn't work, and having a coach
that find helps us find our ownthird way is
Kat Logan (23:26):
so useful. I can agree more. I mean, I think that
the women leaders I reallyrespect and look up to, you
know, have been able to kind ofdevelop their own authentic
presence in their leadershipcapacity. You know, you still
see them as human and as amazingleaders, but it's that human
(23:47):
element I think that makes adifference. You know, they're
not saying things confidentlyfor the sake of saying things.
They're saying things in a waythat comes from, you know,
they're in heart and head, andthey're doing things that way.
And I think you brought up sucha great point where there's such
a gap, you know, where men don'tunderstand that women need to
find their voice in an authenticway. It's not about coming in
(24:10):
and sounding confident andsaying this and saying that and
guiding this person or thatperson. It's about, you know,
developing their own voice andtheir own way of leading as
well, because it lookscompletely different for for
everyone, you know, some peopleare really, really great at
managing everyone at the sametime. Big team for other
leaders, it's, you know, moreindividual connections, and
(24:32):
that's where they can really,like have impact. And I think
there needs to be more focus onon that, and the fact that like
people have such individualleadership skills, and those
need to be fostered andnurtured. So I think that's a
huge opportunity, because in somany ways, I think we're still
looking to a stereotypicalvision of what leadership is in
(24:54):
agencies. And I also think it'sinteresting because, you know,
because of that. Women don'thave the same confidence. I
mean, when you look at and I'lljust say this bluntly, like all
of the independent, smallagencies that are out there that
are being founded, there aren'ta lot of women doing that. It's
mostly men. And I think it'sbecause they have that inbred
(25:15):
confidence to do that and say,you know, I love creativity, I
have great ideas, I have greatclient relationships. I'm going
to go and start my agency. Thereare a lot, not a lot of women
doing that, because they haven'thad that same confidence given
to them. And they also, again,to be bluntly, I think they
think more about it. Okay, whatdoes that mean? Would I be able
to, like, support a team and doso, you know, like, consciously,
(25:39):
would I be able to deliver, youknow, high quality to clients. I
think there's, there's morethought that kind of goes into
that for women, which, which ismaybe why there aren't as many
like female founders in theadvertising space, which
hopefully changes in the future.Yeah, two things come to mind.
It's the the technology spaces,Silicon Valleys, move fast and
(26:00):
break things like and women aremove. Women are okay with moving
fast, but they want to fixthings more likely. These are
broad generalizations,
Indra Klavins (26:09):
but what you're talking about is that there are
so few role models, and whichmeans, as the world is changing,
as rapidly as it has been, likeI think back to so today I wear
my pearls for Carla, CarlaHarris, Carla's pearls, she,
she's a remarkable human being,but she but there are, there are
the there are a relative handfulof women leaders that are really
(26:34):
well known globally ornationwide or within an industry
like if I'm thinkingadvertising, I think of a Cindy
gallop, I would be hard pressedto think of many other women
beyond that, right? So the rolemodels that we have are not that
many, and the reality of it is,is that there are. As the world
(26:56):
is changing, that means that thevariety of ways of leading is
not as broad as, let's say, aman has, because they have more
choices and more role models toselect from, like, oh, that
doesn't work for me, but thatone does, which means we're more
likely to find our own model andour own path, because it may not
exist yet, or it may not bevisible yet. Yeah.
Kat Logan (27:16):
I mean, I think that's so true. It is so hard
for women because they're like,Okay, which path Am I like,
being inspired by, or, you know,following, and it doesn't exist.
And, you know, I think you kindof hit the nail on the head when
you also said the fixing thingsas well. Because I think the
(27:36):
women I've seen in agencies, youknow, where their value is is
often behind the scenes. It'slike, oh, wait, the deck doesn't
have this component, which theclient said was super important
back then. Or is like noticing,you know, you know, maybe a
junior account person that isn'tdoing as well and kind of needs
additional support andmentorship that maybe other
(27:57):
leaders, you know, didn't noticeand didn't see. It's, it's kind
of in the fixing things behindthe scenes, where men are kind
of like conditioned to step moreconfidently into the the
leadership roles that kind ofget more attention, better
promoted, and all of that. But,you know, different, but, yeah,
(28:18):
like women just kind of aren'trewarded at the moment in the
way that the system is inadvertising, I'd
Indra Klavins (28:24):
say that's universal. I mean, it's the
invisible labor that happens.It's not on a career ladder. And
you're right. There is a largesegment of the population that
only does things that they'llget rewarded for, but it's more
likely for a woman to pick upthe work that they know they
won't get rewarded for but theyknow it's intrinsic. It's so
important for the team successthat they'll do it anyway. And
(28:47):
then comes review time, and theydon't have enough, they don't
get rewarded for it. That's awhole nother. That's, that might
be my favorite, favorite rabbithole. I'm finding all my
favorite rabbit holes with you.But yeah, no, there's, there's
so many different pieces ofthis. And you know, I think the
one of the things that you'vebeen working on is called Raw to
roar. Can we talk a little bitabout that? Can you tell
everyone a little bit about whatyou've been thinking around raw
(29:09):
to roar, roar, and spell thatout for everyone to make sure
that they hear it properly.
Kat Logan (29:14):
It's a little confusing when you say it,
because there are two words thatare different that sound the
same. But raw to roar is fromraw, which is R, A, W, to raw,
which is R, O, A, R, which ismore like raw, like a lion. But
the idea came because I have acoach, Shannon Kelly, who I
(29:35):
love, who's much moreexperienced in the coaching
world than me, but her brand iscoaching raw, and it's all about
celebrating. The coaching sidethat allows you to let go, to
get raw with your feelings andwhat's going on. And I've
developed a women's circlethat's going to be happening
every month, starting March 18,and basically it's to help women
(29:58):
get raw with what's going on.On, you know, it's purposely on
a Wednesday hump day to kind oflet go of, you know, everything
that's happened at work thatday, that week, that things like
going to meetings and beinglike, told things that are
blatantly wrong, but beingsurrounded by people where you
can't really speak back and sayNo, that's wrong because of
this, or being gas lit, but kindof really realizing after and
(30:21):
being like, you know, you know Fthat, but there are so many
things that women deal with thatyou know do are hard to process,
because in the day to day, youcan't let go because you're too
busy delivering your job. Butit's also just like, you're not
going to be rewarded for kind ofspeaking back or kind of
correcting someone. So the ideais to help people get raw, to
(30:43):
have a space where they can kindof let go of that, but then
leave at the end of it, at theend of 90 minutes roaring, you
know, we want women to go outthere to find their inner
authority, to find ways to bepresent, to not let small
things, you know, let get themdown, but to give them practical
and pragmatic tips on how to bein a structure and in a
(31:04):
patriarchal environment thatwasn't built for them. So I'm
really excited for it. It's it'smeant to be both reflective and
a safe space, but also pragmaticin terms of, like, what we're
enabling women to kind of leavewith, hopefully. So that's a
little bit about
Indra Klavins (31:21):
so excited, and I'm making sure that this
episode gets released beforethat, so if there are still
seats available, that I willmake sure that those links,
along with everything else aboutyou is in the show notes, so
that, yeah, so so they can takeadvantage of that, because,
because those spaces, thosespaces where you're able to get
raw, be honest, be vulnerable,be authentic. Are so vital.
(31:46):
They're so vital because I thinkthat I like to use it's I, you
get to understand what'stypical. I don't like to
normalize bad behavior or badpatterns, right? But you get to
understand what's typical, thatit's not you. You can let go of
that imposter syndrome to pullthat all together, right? All of
our threads together, and thenyou can step into your next day,
(32:11):
even as a stronger, better, moreroar, self, R, A, O, R, cell,
and do the amazing things thatyou are put here to do, which is
so incredible. I'm so happy thatyou're doing this.
Kat Logan (32:27):
Thank you. And I loved how you brought it all
together. Because I think theone thing with imposter syndrome
is the hardest is it happens insuch small ways. Like, you know,
you could look back on a yearand be like, Oh, I did the this
and this and that. But likeduring that year, you know,
daily, you're stressed andanxious about this or that, and
that constant conditioning oflike, I'm not doing a job that's
(32:51):
good enough, is so exhaustingand puts so much pressure on
women and draws away from, youknow, their focus on creativity
and on doing the big things,where, again, to be blunt, I
don't think men have that samestress and pressure, and so, you
know, they're more able to goand do the big things, to start
an agency to do all that, wherewomen do process more and do
(33:15):
need those spaces. So, yeah,
Indra Klavins (33:19):
so I think we're both encouraging everyone who's
listening stop and resist. Oh,don't someone say stop, because
it's hard to stop, resist askingyourself, what's wrong with you,
right? And really start thinkinglike, what is my What am I
responding to? Like, what? Whatis the environment? What are the
structures that might be causingme to feel that I am the way
(33:39):
that I am, and how can I, howcan I find the right support for
myself, whether it's, you know,writing things down. We talked
about, yes, I love that. I thinkwrite things down, just pause,
go for a walk, you know, leavethe computer, go outside. And I
think, find mentors, find, youknow, managers find, like, women
(34:01):
in other agencies you can, kindof like, have a safe space with
and kind of like talk aboutthings outside of your own
environment, find women to kindof look up to, done it well, but
kind of get outside of the,like, the nitty gritty cycle
that you can kind of be on, youknow, in your agency job and
yeah, have that space to kind oflike pause, reset and come back
(34:26):
with a little bit more in ourauthority and how you approach
things. And if you don't have ahuman who can be your mentor,
find, like a live IRL human orvirtual human that you can
connect with. Find a book, finda podcast. There are so many,
like other names, DebbieMillman, the way that she
manages life. You know, I lovethe fixable podcast with Anne
(34:46):
Mars and Francis fry. We cantalk about Brene Brown. We can
talk about so many others. Findthe one that suits you. Find the
person that you can reflectwith, if you can do that like in
real time, fantastic, if not,find somebody virtually or. Or
like representationally, andjust one step at a time, one
breath at a time, sometimesyou've got this, you've got
(35:08):
this. I love that. Indra, that'ssuch great advice. Kat, thank
you for joining me twice. I feellike you might visit me again. I
hope that you got something outof it. I trust that you got
something out of this episode.And I also hope you all join us
next time for another topic fromthe messy middle bye, everyone
Kat Logan (35:27):
bye, thanks Indra.
Indra Klavins (35:34):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it.
If you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(35:54):
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com, or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey this
work is better when we do ittogether, until next time you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!