August 3, 2026 • 34 mins
Alexis chats with Melbourne-based producer, musician, and Peak Park member Thomas Hoeft about his journey from civil engineering to a full-time career in music. They discuss the privilege and importance of collaboration, a peak into his creative process behind producing, and what it takes to build a sustainable career doing what you love.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow on instagram; @ tmh.wav @ thisispeakpark
This episode was recorded on 31 July 2026 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:50):
Oh, my goodness.
Yes.
Thomas.
Yes.
Do you go by Tom?
Yeah, I like- Or you like-
Tom Thomas … no, what do you prefer?
I actually, I prefer Hoft or Hofty, actually.
Oh, really?
There's like a threshold- Straight from the nickname.
Any, any of them will do.
Yeah.
I have friends who like call me by Thomas, and I'm like, "Yeah, nice." Like I, I'll own that.
That feels good.
So.
It's a lovely name.
(01:10):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's tons of us around.
Like I've…
Yeah.
You're like, as busy- Dime a dozen … yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Well, you say this, but not all Thomases do what you do.
No.
We are in such a beautiful space at the moment.
Yes, thank you.
We… You have allowed, through the creative door- Mm-hmm … through your creative door- Yeah … in your home studio- Yes … which is very lush
(01:33):
yes.
My humble little spot.
We've got very nice little orange lamps.
Yeah.
And I love a tassel lamp.
Yeah.
This is a- I'll be honest, this is special … a, a custom piece, actually.
My partner made this one.
Oh.
So yeah, really cool.
Shout out.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's a nice little spot.
We've been, we've been here for I think like five years, but I've only sort of been working out of this spot for like the last sort of year or two.
(01:54):
Yeah, just accumulated a bunch of shit over the years and learnt the value of having a well-decorated space and how much it actually impacts your creativity, so currently this is the version of that, but I'm sure it'll change over time.
Love.
Yeah.
For those listening- … you are such a talented bear.
Oh.
You are- Please.
… an engineer.
Yeah Obviously have some phenomenal people coming into this space and co-creating with you here.
(02:19):
Yeah.
Yep.
You also are a talented bear in regards to you being not just on one side of the musical journey-
but actually creating it from a band side.
Yeah.
Yes Which I love, and I love that your description in your Instagram is that you're, like, one third- Yeah … of your band.
(02:39):
Yeah Uh, Peak Park.
That's it.
Nam Band.
Yes.
Whoop, whoop.
Go Nam Band.
Yeah, name drop.
We'll show that we'll get a few references throughout this chat, but yeah.
Oh, look, I think whenever we've got collaborations, they always wind through.
Yeah, definitely.
Feed through.
But yeah, no, that's a band that's been going for… We were chatting about this last night, actually.
Like, we've been around for a long time in terms of actual physically just being friends in the project.
(03:01):
And I say long time as in I think 2019, so we were like a pre-COVID thing.
And, um, we, the big joke of it all is that we've been around for so long, and the only thing we've really got out of it is just a great friendship.
We're like the most unsuccessful band in terms of, like, time actually around.
Which I know isn't actually true.
But it's been funny to think about for, like, how long we've been making music and hanging out and stuff.
(03:22):
It's just, yeah, we've just become, like, three really, really close friends.
I live with Mitch, and have lived with him for a number of years.
Cal lives down the road.
Like, we're all just, yeah really good mates.
So- Yeah … it's a project I'm really thankful for.
Now, I am very curious.
What does a creative space mean to you?
Yeah.
I think, I mean, I first and foremost from creating music and the environment that I'm in, I used to be pretty neglectful of it actually.
(03:46):
Like, when we first moved out of home and we, we had a, a place in Prahran, It was a modern building that had concrete ceilings, and it was all the walls were white, and it was just, like, super duper bland.
And I got these brutalist shelves, and I was like, "Function. It's all about function," all that sort of stuff.
That was the first time I actually had like a, like a dedicated room.
Otherwise, I was just working out of my bedroom and where I slept and all that sort of stuff.
(04:08):
And, uh, yeah, it was a really ugly space and my partner Emily was like, "You need to make it pretty." And I was like, "No, it's all about function.
You know, I got these ugly-ass shelves, but look how much stuff they store."
And she's like, "You gotta put up some artwork." I'm like, "No, panels here, panels there," and all that sort of shit.
Anyway, over time she whittled me down and I, absolutely for the better, realized that, ah, if it's depressing to be in this space, that's not conducive of a creative environment, you know?
(04:33):
And with time, have absolutely realized the truth and benefit of that as well.
And part of like even this space and making an intentional effort to make it feel kind of homely and all that is as much for, like, people to come through and be a part of it, but it's so much for me.
Like, I, I wanna come down here and feel like, you know, I'm excited to be here.
There's natural light.
(04:53):
Like, it's, it's an uphill battle to be creative at the best of times, so any sort of friction that I can eliminate to get into that head space, the better.
So in a practical sense, yeah, totally.
Creative space, this is definitely one of them.
Plants, I think again, just greenery.
It's so funny, even when I take them out and like turn the, the lights off and put them to like cold lighting or whatever, it's just so ugly and sterile.
(05:14):
And it's really weird.
Again, it just instantly makes you be like, "Oh, I don't wanna be here. Like, this sucks. This is not a fun spot." But… And even like a, a really interesting example in a very lame way, so not to get nerdy, but a production or a mixing room, typically you want your spot right in the middle of the thing, you know, a third of the way through.
Anyway, there's all these rules and shit about how you get the best sounding room, and I used to adhere to that, but it didn't make the room functional to work with people because there just wasn't the arrangement of it.
(05:42):
And then when I moved a bunch of stuff around, I was like, "I'm gonna put my desk in the corner" which is, if you jump on any like gear thread, they'll tell you that's like the shittest idea ever.
Like, it's terrible, but it allows for this open space to be able to really easily collaborate, to be able to have all my gear, everything set up all the time and ultimately that's a way better outcome than whether it's a perfect mixing spot because you don't get to being able to mix it until you've actually made the song.
(06:06):
And if you can't make the song because the space is super unfunctional and all these like little, things, then yeah, it's not worth having that ideal sort of spot.
I've really come to realize how important it is to actually have a creative, exciting space.
And then outside of that- I think even just through the home as well, like, again, I, I am saying this as if, like, I had any kind of claim to it, but this is all Emily.
(06:27):
This is all her doing.
Like, she, paints, is really on top of decor and in the best way.
And as a typical boy was kind of like, "Ah, this shit's lame.
It's a waste of money." But that's just such a cop-out and not true, so- You got the benefits.
I really did.
Yeah.
I mean, not just that.
She's, she's lovely in a number of ways, and I've really benefited from this relationship.
(06:48):
But yeah, decor is so important, and lighting as well.
Again, like, we can turn off some of these lights and turn on the cold room lighting, and it's just instantly sucks.
So yeah, but this is my creative space.
I love it.
Um, also it's out of necessity less so than choice.
Like, if I had the money and the opportunity, the space I'd love to have would be different to this, but this is what I can afford, and this is where it is, so you gotta make the most of it.
(07:15):
I think a lot can be said though for finding what works- Mm … within a budget.
Sometimes if you had a never-ending budget, it wouldn't feel and feel nearly as- Yeah … authentic- Yeah … and have the same vibe.
Yeah.
I'm also a sucker for like, I love making music, I truly do, but I really love creating projects for myself that I feel like are gonna benefit me making music, even though it kind of has nothing to do with it.
(07:42):
Like this desk, I say I made this desk, but, like, even just cutting it to shape and building this, like, extra little thing behind it or whatever, I just, I've come to learn that I have a real issue with creating other problems and projects for myself.
So I think if I had a never-ending money, uh, pool of money, I wouldn't make any music.
You'd be too distracted.
I would be.
I'd just be building shit, and I'm not even a good builder.
I just, it's just the thrill of having a project.
(08:04):
So yeah.
I love what you said about making sure there's less friction.
I think just being in this beautiful space and how you've laid it out, at every turn I'm almost- Welcomed by another instrument Yeah.
(08:25):
Yep, totally intentional.
I've been quite lucky with the band that this, wherever I've kinda lived has always, for the most part usually been where we rehearse.
And we rehearse like twice a week and, uh, we don't have the l- or we have the luxury of not having a drummer, so we can just recur- rehearse with headphones in, you know, do the full thing.
And, over time realizing like how important was that that was constantly accessible.
So prior to me doing sessions with other people, it was always like, oh, you know, there's a spot for Cal, there's a spot for Mitch, there's a spot for me.
(08:50):
Everything's always plugged in.
We just, session, log in.
And having to pivot a little bit to be like, that still exists, but now I need it to function for when I have kinda people flowing in and out.
And even for me as well, like I just wanna be able to have stuff ready to go.
Like I don't wanna have to find a PowerPoint and then, you know, work out where I'm gonna plug it in and all that sorta stuff.
And I've met so many different artists, and I'm sure you've probably experienced the same thing as well, where it's like you feel creative and then you go to do the thing or record something and something doesn't work, and the idea just dies in the ass.
(09:22):
You know, you hit that wall.
And I'm sure it's the same for every creative field.
If your stuff is accessible, it just makes it so much easier to do it.
Yeah.
Well Said.
Yeah.
Well, well said
I love this question.
My next question is something where, as an outsider, you can always have your perception of what you think a guest's answer's gonna be.
(09:47):
Oh, yeah.
But I am constantly surprised at the thing that people tell me.
What is something that you're most proud of creating, and how did it come about?
I think every bit of original music I've ever made has had some level of pride to it, and others, some more than others in terms of, you know, like you listen back to music you've released and you're like, "Oh, we just like really cooked with that one."
(10:11):
Like that one we just… Something happened, it all kind of lined up and there's definitely stuff that I can listen back to, 'cause I like self-produced and learned how to do that and used the band as a way to learn.
There's definitely stuff I listen back to now where I'm like, "Oh, I would love to have known what I do now and it would've sounded different" but I can still be appreciative and proud of that for what it was as a timestamp.
So I think the probably maybe boring answer is like there's certain releases and things we've done where I'm like, "Oh, I just feel like I, have made another step. I really enjoyed the process", all those different things.
(10:40):
But maybe a more interesting one I think is being proud of being able to facilitate creation with people, and I think even with the band stuff, like it being about us becoming such good friends.
The music was the motivator, but the outcome of it has been an entirely different thing.
(11:02):
And yeah, just being really proud of letting stuff go where it wants to go and even doing more sessions with people, even like yourself, it's just this music is just kind of the thing that's bringing people together and I really like that as a, as, a message or a vessel or whatever you wanna call it.
A vehicle, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like… And I think with age and the more I'm doing it, I'm realizing how important it is for human connection.
(11:26):
Like at the end of the day, there is a tangible end result of you have a song or whatever the hell it is.
But I kind of had this epiphany the other week that no amount of streams or followers or anything that's like metric-based will ever make up for or overtake these experiences of like genuine human interaction.
And I think I kind of just wanna live my whole life like that at the end of the day.
Like I wanna be able to look back every day or every week and say, "Yeah, I really enjoyed the fact that we got to hang out and chat about life" and all that sort of stuff.
(11:52):
You know, maybe we didn't make any money, but like who cares?
The money's not important.
The connection and the fulfillment and, I don't know, life and all these other woo woo things, like that is the shit that I feel like the older I'm getting I'm just so excited by and invigorated by.
I'm proud of the fact that my perception and the value of music is kinda changing now to be more about human connection and stuff, When I was younger it was so, like, I wanna blow up and, like, take over the world and, you know, do a million albums, all that sort of shit.
(12:19):
And there's part of me that still loves the idea of that, but only if the process of doing it is fulfilling, and fun, and enjoyable, and, and all that sort of stuff.
I used to be a civil engineer.
That was my day job.
And that was a very like, unfortunately at times, like a real dick-swinging kind of industry, where people would be like, "Oh, you know, I worked on this project and I did this thing," and all that sort of stuff.
(12:39):
And yeah cool.
But like, why are you so miserable?
Like you're, you know, you make all this money, and that's such a big metric of success for you, and your value comes from that.
But like, I can tell you're miserable, you're depressed, you're… Yeah.
So I think I was exposed to that stuff very early on, and it just instilled within me that those aren't motivators for me.
(13:00):
I got that job as an undergrad, and there were red flags, and I think I was just kind of taking stock of them.
And then when I started working more full time and during lockdown, and, you know, would wake up in the morning at like 5:00 to have to go to work, and like stare at myself in the mirror and be like, "Oh man, I'm like a shell of a human now." My heart is pumping, I'm having all these like health issues and stuff, and it's like for what?
(13:21):
I don't know, just it very much wasn't worth it.
And they, yeah, I, I completely agree that you don't know something's bad or something's like doing something to you until you're like already kind of too far or too far down the way.
So that was like a really interesting lesson to take into now what is my job and my career of being a musician, and I fully know that some of those things will happen again potentially.
(13:42):
But the fact that I am now aware to those things ideally means that I'll be able to avoid them or cope with them in a better way, and not just get hit like a truck and, you know, crumble.
But yeah, it's, it is very much you are just a product of your context and experiences and stuff, and sometimes it is trial by fire.
The one analogy I always kind of pull out on people is like the electric fence.
(14:05):
It's like this thing you know is like really fucking up your life, and it's really bad for you or whatever, but like you just keep touching it and then you expect stuff to change.
It's like- when will be enough?
You know, what kind of impact on your life before you're like, "Ah, I should probably stop like grabbing the electric fence and holding onto it for dear life", but easy to say that stuff when you're kind of on the other end of it, and I fully respect when you're in those throes of it, and not even like touching on mental health as well.
(14:29):
It's very easy to be like, "Oh, just get over it," you know, or like, "Get past it," and stuff.
So yeah, want to acknowledge it's easy to say this stuff, but there are, you know, layers and complexity and stuff to it as well.
You can't do it all at once.
Yeah.
And I think one of the major components of this creative life is that we're also trying to be active members in our family.
(14:51):
Yeah.
And we're trying to pay mortgages or pay rent.
Yep.
And, and so yeah, sometimes you can put that creative path and that can be at the forefront.
But then there are other times where it's like, oh, well, I've got this other thing that I need to do, and I need to… family time or- Yeah
relationships or- Yep … whatever it is that's taking more precedent at that moment.
(15:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's an interesting one where I feel like I have conversations with people about "How are you going with the music?" They're like, "Oh, I just kind of don't have the time for it." And again, I'm maybe gonna say something quite broad stroke, but sometimes I think it's not time as much as it's a priority.
And again, fully acknowledge there are things in life that are kind of just non-negotiables, and if that is filling your full capacity, then sure, you know, you don't, you can't find time to be creative.
(15:37):
But something that I've made peace with, Again, like I, I was a engineer, and in a different life I could have absolutely gone down a path and I would've loved it.
I, I did enjoy it, but I always wanted to make music instead, and that was always kind of the end goal.
I also studied architecture, and there was absolutely another world where I would've loved to do that sort of stuff too.
And you know, I kind of wanna be a woodworker and I wanna build a house and I wanna do all this like, just stuff, but I can't do all of it in a way that I would like to do it.
(16:07):
But that's fine, and making peace with that has been really freeing actually.
I was kind of finding that music kept being this like, oh, big what if thing that I really wanna pursue it and stuff.
But also I have this safety net of working and income and all that shit, and that's a really easy thing to hold onto.
And then I kinda got to a point and things aligned in a, a different way, but I was like, "Yeah, fuck it.
(16:27):
Like, the only way I'm gonna find out is to do it.
And I know it's gonna be hard, and I know this is something I wanna do long term, so like I just have to do it and find out.
But that means that I will not have this amount of income.
It means that I won't have job security.
I'll have all these different things that I can't do or can't prioritize in the same way." And it was really, really hard at the start, and it still kind of is.
But yeah, when I start to feel that now I just go, "Well, I chose this," and I can't mourn the things that I can't do if it means it get, gets in the way of the opportunity that I've created for myself, because that's the worst thing that could happen is you're like… And I'm finding this.
(17:02):
I go through waves where I'm like, "Oh, I've, I'm just making music full time now." And full time is a, from a time thing, not necessarily a money thing.
But there's days where I just go like, "Oh, yeah, shit.
Like I created this for myself.
I should be doing this.
Like I've, I've made this opportunity.
I'm as accessible and time valuable as ever.
Like stop fucking around.
(17:24):
Like this is exactly what you wanted.
Do it.
Do the thing," yeah, don't get caught up in being like, "Oh, but you know, I wish I could be a painter, and I wish I could be like a bricklayer, and I wish I could do a kickflip or some shit."
Like to a certain point, like do the thing that you actually wanna do and just stop fucking around.
That's also probably a really great segue into my next question.
(17:44):
'Cause there's definitely some points in there that I wondered while you were speaking whether they would be- Areas in which you've found challenge?
Yeah.
One of the questions that I always ask guests- Yeah … is if you can pinpoint something that's challenged creativity for you- Yeah
(18:04):
and how you've sort of mitigated that and worked through that.
And a lot, and again, not to lead your answer- Mm, mm … but it's interesting how as you're speaking, you're talking about all these learnings- Yeah … and a change of environment that's happened and been instigated by you having to make change- Yeah
and language, even self-talk even, it seems.
(18:26):
But again, don't wanna lead.
No, no.
Don't wanna lead the questions.
Take me to the trough.
But yeah.
Let's do it.
But what has challenged you in that, in this creative life?
Yeah.
To compartmentalize it in different ways.
But needing to work, I think, and just, you know, exist in this capitalist consumerist sort of society, that's something I maybe wasn't as privy to as I am now, and, you know, making active choices around that.
(18:52):
But that was always, and I think is a super-duper common challenge for everyone, is just having time and capacity to do stuff because, the non-negotiables of life take over and all that sort of shit.
But, the biggest one, like without a doubt, and it really sucks, but is just imposter syndrome.
And it really sucks because the more I do it, the more it kinda creeps in, but the more confident I am as well.
(19:16):
It's this weird sort of sliding inverse scale where I go through swings of being like, "I'm as competent and as confident as I've ever been," but also like, "What the fuck am I doing?"
Like, who am I to say, you know, this is right or this is wrong or this is good or like… And it gets complicated too as soon as you start asking money for it as well, and I think that's been an interesting transition of, You know, when it's a band and it's something I'm involved in, it's easy to be like, "Oh, this is just me learning and exploring and, you know, no- I'm not being paid.
(19:45):
I'm just doing it because I wanna make music and it's my own thing." But as soon as that started to transition to working with other people, even for free, that started to creep in.
But as soon as it then became like, "Oh, I actually think I'm worth something," worth something financially at least, 'cause again, being worth something is just such a stupid concept because I'm worth something just 'cause I exist, not whether I put money or finances to it.
(20:07):
Like I- I'm- we're all worth something.
But when you put like a money thing to it, it's instantly like, "Oh shit, am I worth like $300 or 1,000 or two grand or like nothing?" That's been really hard and something to I guess just learn through trial by fire, and that's been… I've pretty much been doing this more professionally speaking for only better part of, oh, just under a year or so, and it's been like a whirlwind of just the music bit's actually been the easiest part.
(20:34):
It's been literally everything else.
It's been all this like self-doubt, the business shit, trying to find clientele, just trying to wrangle my own mental health around all of it as well.
So yeah, the, the challenge has probably been imposter syndrome and being more comfortable and okay with just accepting the fact that I am who I am right now, and that's fine.
(20:58):
Things are gonna change.
I am gonna get better.
This is a long-term thing that I want it to be a sustained career.
Like, I don't want this to be a flash in the pan.
And yeah just dealing with- all these anxieties and stresses about more tangible value-based things, 'cause it's easy for someone to just sort of say like, "Oh, I feel like I wasted my money on that," or, you know, "I really thought it was worth the value," or something.
(21:20):
So that's been like a really interesting thing to sort of deal with and but the positives of that have been by doing a lot of this, I've come to kind of realize like, oh fuck, I actually do know quite a lot.
Like I… And there are skills that I have that certain people don't have, and it's not from a comparative angle of just like this is what I bring to the table, what do you bring to the table?
How do we make something creative and clever and amazing, and have a great time doing it?
(21:43):
And so much of these learnings about mindset shift and growth and, and I don't wanna sound like some kinda, I don't know, tech bro hustle like, "It's all about mindshift, mindset, brother." But like it has been very much about I'm the only thing that's stopping me from achieving what I want to achieve,
And I've kinda had that learning by having conversations with different mentors and community, and building my community of people and stuff and, you know, my friends and the fellas in the band and trusting them and my partner, and asking for feedback on all these different things.
(22:13):
But yeah, that's probably been the biggest challenge.
And then outside of that, just- Yeah.
I'd probably say in a more lame practical business way is just like finding work.
That's just like an ongoing challenge.
And I know that'll always be the case.
Especially in Australia, this kind of industry, all that sort of stuff.
But that's fine.
Whatever.
I've made my peace with that and that's, yeah, kind of motivating
well said.
(22:34):
I love
It is time for my question- Hey … about objects.
Oh, yeah.
I love this question.
Yeah.
'Cause I get the most interesting of things.
If you Could choose one object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating- Oh, yeah … what would it be and why?
(22:59):
I couldn't live without other people and human interaction and still be creative, and I, I kinda had that realization when I was like 16 or 17 when I f- you know, started making music and I like wrote a riff and then like showed a friend, and then we became friends, and we startedjamming, and we became really close mates and, uh, and then I went to my first, proper gig of a band that I really loved and had that moment where I was in a crowd with a bunch of other 16-year-olds like sweating and screaming the lyrics and, you know, all that sort of shit.
(23:26):
And having the realization that I wanna be a person who facilitates that opportunity for connection amongst, friends and peers and stuff.
And also, I love performing and being on stage, and being able to see that, but also connect with the other people I'm on stage with and, and all that sorta stuff.
And I don't know, I just… I think I have been like quizzed on this before over the years just in casual conversations of like, "Oh, you think you, would you ever make music if you couldn't share it?" And I fucking, I don't know if I would.
(23:54):
I… it just feels like such a part of it that it real- is really hard to separate that.
Like, on one hand, I'm like, "Yeah, sure, I'd still make music 'cause I love it and it's personal," and all that sorta stuff.
But at the end of the day, I, I don't know, the most fulfilling moments I get out of it are when I then show it to people, and when I get to make music with other people.
(24:15):
Especially if right now you told me like, "Okay, you can never share your music again," I think I would just implode.
Now having experienced what it is like to share, But if it was like, you know, this other hypothetical of like sharing was never a thing and therefore you, and then you discovered music, maybe I would be able to create, but right now, no.
Like, that would not be possible.
Um, so yeah, probably… Again, it's probably a bit of a cop-out answer, but like human connection and being able to share is my object that I can't live without.
(24:44):
Yeah.
But I think- At a more maybe personal level in terms of physical object stuff, like guitar is the thing that got me into music.
That was, my brother, my older brother got a guitar when I was maybe 12 or 13, and he's only a couple years older.
And I was like, "All right. Well, shit, I have to learn guitar as well. Like, you aren't having that." We, everything's a competition, typical- Yeah, boys … uh, siblings.
(25:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And, we had, you know, different approaches to it and stuff, but yeah, guitar, and I think being 14 and, hearing music on Rage, and my dad, like, listening to Triple J and stuff, and then him showing me stuff, and it, I, I never had that kinda, you know, classic musical family thing where like, yeah, there was records playing all the time, and Dad introduced me to Bowie when I was seven.
(25:29):
Like, that was not us.
And I remember in, like, year eight or whatever, Trent sent me, um, this Block Party song , , and I was just like, "What is this?" I loved exploring and finding music, but the way I was then able to hit this whole other, , experience of creating and making, it was all facilitated by guitar.
(25:49):
That's like what got me into it.
And I've been thinking about this weirdly a lot lately of like, you know, there was moments of music in my younger years.
Like, Nanna had a piano and stuff, and like she had a pianola, and we just sat around and you could pretend you could play it, and it would do this.
And I was like, "Oh, that's amazing.
It's fascinating and stuff." And there were all these little pockets of that sort of stuff.
But as soon as I s- got a guitar and was like learning how to make music and shit, that was just… if I'd never had that, I wouldn't be doing this stuff today, you know?
(26:15):
And I can say that pretty confidently.
I think I would've been an absolute lover of and consumer of music, and a fan, but I think that's one thing, and creating is an entirely different, pursuit.
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold- Just one?
Just one.
You got to ugh.
(26:37):
Oh, God.
Yeah.
Concise.
Yeah.
What would it be?
It's hard because I've had heaps of interpersonal learnings over the last year and my, uh, relationship with music and creation and business success, all these things have really morphed in the last kind of couple years.
But if I could try and hold me to this, if I distill it down into one little like nugget of advice, it is that, the process needs to be fun and enjoyable and you need to really be really, really clear on why you're doing what you're doing and what that entails to try and get to that kinda end goal or success or that certain level of sustainability.
(27:22):
And that would be it.
And I'd be more than happy to elaborate on that in like practical senses.
But yeah, I think it's been really, really brutal in looking inwards about like why are you doing the thing you're doing?
So for me, it's about making music with people I really connect with on a human level.
I don't wanna just make music to try and make money because there's so many easier ways to make money than music.
(27:45):
And I want to enjoy the process.
I wanna be proud of the stuff that I'm making, and I wanna do it sustainably and not burn out and,
Ultimately just wanna live a fulfilled life and not be chasing a destination or an end result.
It's a journey sort of thing.
And as cliche as it sound, that's, that's it.
That's… It's all about just the journey at the end of the day.
And there'll be a point where I've gone, "Yeah, I'm finished with this journey," and I'll move on to the next thing, or I'll pivot and I'll change and- You're turning into a woodworker.
(28:08):
That's it.
That's my thing.
I tell you, when I'm hitting, I don't know what age it'll be, hopefully like late 60s or something when I finally… I've clocked music.
But like yeah that's probably it.
well said.
Again, well said.
Ah, it's, it's a lot of so much just growth and learning and stuff in recent years.
It's been… And that like excites me, and when I look back of like that's music related stuff and my, you know, relationship with creation and creativity and stuff.
(28:35):
But even just since turning 20 to who I am now, like it's exciting to feel like I'm just gonna constantly be learning shit, and that's, that's good.
I think the day you kinda stop learning and I don't know, stop chasing trying to evolve and becoming like a better well-rounded person is like a really sad day.
So I hope that never happens,
With education and YouTube videos and everyone knows so, like- … information's at the fingertips these days.
(29:05):
If someone wanted to do what you do- Yep there any resources that you would recommend if someone wanted to try and put their Thomas hat on?
Yeah.
I think the first step is just, being really clear on what you actually really wanna get out of it at the end of the day.
(29:27):
And the biggest issue with all these resources and stuff is you're just going down a path that's not relevant to you, and that is a plague on all of us.
Especially when you're learning how to, you know, mix and engineer and shit.
There's YouTube channels for days about that stuff, and they're just feeding you shit that's totally not relevant to you and your skillset and stuff.
Something I've really come to appreciate is that in a pr- in practical sense to be like an engineer or a good mixing engineer or a producer and all those sort of things and stuff or a good musician, is that there is a hierarchy or a pyramid rather of how good your music can get, and it all starts with the song at the bottom.
(30:07):
It's fundamentally about the song, the emotion what you're singing about, why it's relevant, then the music and arrangement is obviously all part of that.
But it slowly, the f- closer you get to a finished thing, the less these stages impact the actual outcome of the song.
And as someone who very full of hubris was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna teach myself how to mix," and, you know, I had no idea what the hell I was doing and thought we'd just solve it all in the mix and stuff and, then realized that, oh, maybe the arrangement was cooked and then, oh, maybe the production was like not actually that good and also, yeah, we probably just didn't write like that good of a song, you know.
(30:40):
We're trying to polish a turd, all that sort of stuff.
So if … I think if, to become a really, really good producer, I do think the best producers are really, really good musicians at the end of the day.
They're just really, really good at at arranging composition, lyric writing, melodies, all that sort of stuff.
And then, you know, the skill of producing and learning how to sound design and stuff, that is just like an individual thing that you just kinda get better at.
(31:04):
But yeah, I, I think, and this might again feel like another cop-out answer, is the best resource is just other people, and I mean like physical, real people.
Not saying I'm not anti-AI, not talking about that part of it, but I mean, like, YouTube and stuff is great, but again, it's trying to solve a problem that is not actually maybe specific or actually the thing you're trying to solve.
(31:27):
Sometimes YouTube's great if you have an Excel problem, 'cause it's like, oh, that is just a one and zero, like, you know, it's a mechanical thing.
But if you're like, "Oh, I wanted my bass to sound better" And then you YouTube that and you watch 50 different t- tutorials, and then you end up on this path where you're trying to solve a problem that never existed.
It's just wasted energy.
And I'm not saying that YouTube isn't valuable, but I think having other creative friends and finding other people who are doing what you're doing, and asking them and learning from them and being in that environment, that is absolutely the thing to get better at all this sort of stuff.
(32:00):
Other people are the best resource at the end of the day.
And that's something I've had to learn because and this probably would've been a good answer from the advising earlier of, 'Cause I was full of so much ego and hubris, of like, "I wanna do everything.
I wanna be the one who recorded it.
I wanna be the one who produced it and mixed it and all that sort of stuff.
I have to do everything." But I didn't have the skillset.
(32:21):
I, I wasn't capable of doing that to the level that I thought I was delivering.
So delete your ego.
Accept that you can't do everything.
And even if you can, typically it's more fun to do it with other people anyway.
So branch out, find other creative friends.
Like, be, be self-sufficient, but also, that doesn't have to be the only way you do something.
(32:44):
So yeah, best resource I think would just be getting over yourself and going and finding other people and asking for help and stuff.
Other humans.
Yeah.
If you could have anyone else come on this podcast and answer these questions- Yeah … who would it be and why?
My roommate/band member Mitch would actually be really, really good at this.
(33:07):
I largely credit a good amount of my to him and Emily, but my interpersonal skills and, like, deep thinking and stuff.
But he's, like, one of the deepest thinkers I've met.
Sometimes for the worst you know, which we all are.
But yeah, I think he'd be really, really, really interesting to talk to.
Another friend Tom Garson-Lewis.
He's a super creative guy.
(33:28):
He he's nicknamed Bing Bong.
Don't know why, just is.
But Bing Bong, I think he would be great for this podcast.
He does music.
He makes his own apparel.
He's just a really amazing photographer.
Really, really clever dude.
Love.
Love.
You, actually.
Oh, no, no.
I would love to be on the other end of it.
I'm, I'm the lady behind the camera, mate.
No.
(33:48):
No, no.
No, get Alexis.
We'll start the petition.
No.
Yeah.
No.
No petition.
Not needed.
Not needed.
Oh, my goodness.
Thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door.
Uh, thank you for having me.
Honestly, I feel like we could just spend every Friday night having these chats.
Yeah.
It's been so lovely.
Sorry for yapping so much.
No, I love it.
I love it so much.
Yeah, no.
It's so good.
(34:09):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Oh, my goodness.
Yes.
Thomas.
Yes.
Do you go by Tom?
Yeah, I like- Or you like-
Tom Thomas … no, what do you prefer?
I actually, I prefer Hoft or Hofty, actually.
Oh, really?
There's like a threshold- Straight from the nickname.
Any, any of them will do.
Yeah.
I have friends who like call me by Thomas, and I'm like, "Yeah, nice." Like I, I'll own that.
That feels good.
So.
It's a lovely name.
(01:10):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's tons of us around.
Like I've…
Yeah.
You're like, as busy- Dime a dozen … yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Well, you say this, but not all Thomases do what you do.
No.
We are in such a beautiful space at the moment.
Yes, thank you.
We… You have allowed, through the creative door- Mm-hmm … through your creative door- Yeah … in your home studio- Yes … which is very lush
(01:33):
yes.
My humble little spot.
We've got very nice little orange lamps.
Yeah.
And I love a tassel lamp.
Yeah.
This is a- I'll be honest, this is special … a, a custom piece, actually.
My partner made this one.
Oh.
So yeah, really cool.
Shout out.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's a nice little spot.
We've been, we've been here for I think like five years, but I've only sort of been working out of this spot for like the last sort of year or two.
(01:54):
Yeah, just accumulated a bunch of shit over the years and learnt the value of having a well-decorated space and how much it actually impacts your creativity, so currently this is the version of that, but I'm sure it'll change over time.
Love.
Yeah.
For those listening- … you are such a talented bear.
Oh.
You are- Please.
… an engineer.
Yeah Obviously have some phenomenal people coming into this space and co-creating with you here.
(02:19):
Yeah.
Yep.
You also are a talented bear in regards to you being not just on one side of the musical journey-
but actually creating it from a band side.
Yeah.
Yes Which I love, and I love that your description in your Instagram is that you're, like, one third- Yeah … of your band.
(02:39):
Yeah Uh, Peak Park.
That's it.
Nam Band.
Yes.
Whoop, whoop.
Go Nam Band.
Yeah, name drop.
We'll show that we'll get a few references throughout this chat, but yeah.
Oh, look, I think whenever we've got collaborations, they always wind through.
Yeah, definitely.
Feed through.
But yeah, no, that's a band that's been going for… We were chatting about this last night, actually.
Like, we've been around for a long time in terms of actual physically just being friends in the project.
(03:01):
And I say long time as in I think 2019, so we were like a pre-COVID thing.
And, um, we, the big joke of it all is that we've been around for so long, and the only thing we've really got out of it is just a great friendship.
We're like the most unsuccessful band in terms of, like, time actually around.
Which I know isn't actually true.
But it's been funny to think about for, like, how long we've been making music and hanging out and stuff.
(03:22):
It's just, yeah, we've just become, like, three really, really close friends.
I live with Mitch, and have lived with him for a number of years.
Cal lives down the road.
Like, we're all just, yeah really good mates.
So- Yeah … it's a project I'm really thankful for.
Now, I am very curious.
What does a creative space mean to you?
Yeah.
I think, I mean, I first and foremost from creating music and the environment that I'm in, I used to be pretty neglectful of it actually.
(03:46):
Like, when we first moved out of home and we, we had a, a place in Prahran, It was a modern building that had concrete ceilings, and it was all the walls were white, and it was just, like, super duper bland.
And I got these brutalist shelves, and I was like, "Function. It's all about function," all that sort of stuff.
That was the first time I actually had like a, like a dedicated room.
Otherwise, I was just working out of my bedroom and where I slept and all that sort of stuff.
(04:08):
And, uh, yeah, it was a really ugly space and my partner Emily was like, "You need to make it pretty." And I was like, "No, it's all about function.
You know, I got these ugly-ass shelves, but look how much stuff they store."
And she's like, "You gotta put up some artwork." I'm like, "No, panels here, panels there," and all that sort of shit.
Anyway, over time she whittled me down and I, absolutely for the better, realized that, ah, if it's depressing to be in this space, that's not conducive of a creative environment, you know?
(04:33):
And with time, have absolutely realized the truth and benefit of that as well.
And part of like even this space and making an intentional effort to make it feel kind of homely and all that is as much for, like, people to come through and be a part of it, but it's so much for me.
Like, I, I wanna come down here and feel like, you know, I'm excited to be here.
There's natural light.
(04:53):
Like, it's, it's an uphill battle to be creative at the best of times, so any sort of friction that I can eliminate to get into that head space, the better.
So in a practical sense, yeah, totally.
Creative space, this is definitely one of them.
Plants, I think again, just greenery.
It's so funny, even when I take them out and like turn the, the lights off and put them to like cold lighting or whatever, it's just so ugly and sterile.
(05:14):
And it's really weird.
Again, it just instantly makes you be like, "Oh, I don't wanna be here. Like, this sucks. This is not a fun spot." But… And even like a, a really interesting example in a very lame way, so not to get nerdy, but a production or a mixing room, typically you want your spot right in the middle of the thing, you know, a third of the way through.
Anyway, there's all these rules and shit about how you get the best sounding room, and I used to adhere to that, but it didn't make the room functional to work with people because there just wasn't the arrangement of it.
(05:42):
And then when I moved a bunch of stuff around, I was like, "I'm gonna put my desk in the corner" which is, if you jump on any like gear thread, they'll tell you that's like the shittest idea ever.
Like, it's terrible, but it allows for this open space to be able to really easily collaborate, to be able to have all my gear, everything set up all the time and ultimately that's a way better outcome than whether it's a perfect mixing spot because you don't get to being able to mix it until you've actually made the song.
(06:06):
And if you can't make the song because the space is super unfunctional and all these like little, things, then yeah, it's not worth having that ideal sort of spot.
I've really come to realize how important it is to actually have a creative, exciting space.
And then outside of that- I think even just through the home as well, like, again, I, I am saying this as if, like, I had any kind of claim to it, but this is all Emily.
(06:27):
This is all her doing.
Like, she, paints, is really on top of decor and in the best way.
And as a typical boy was kind of like, "Ah, this shit's lame.
It's a waste of money." But that's just such a cop-out and not true, so- You got the benefits.
I really did.
Yeah.
I mean, not just that.
She's, she's lovely in a number of ways, and I've really benefited from this relationship.
(06:48):
But yeah, decor is so important, and lighting as well.
Again, like, we can turn off some of these lights and turn on the cold room lighting, and it's just instantly sucks.
So yeah, but this is my creative space.
I love it.
Um, also it's out of necessity less so than choice.
Like, if I had the money and the opportunity, the space I'd love to have would be different to this, but this is what I can afford, and this is where it is, so you gotta make the most of it.
(07:15):
I think a lot can be said though for finding what works- Mm … within a budget.
Sometimes if you had a never-ending budget, it wouldn't feel and feel nearly as- Yeah … authentic- Yeah … and have the same vibe.
Yeah.
I'm also a sucker for like, I love making music, I truly do, but I really love creating projects for myself that I feel like are gonna benefit me making music, even though it kind of has nothing to do with it.
(07:42):
Like this desk, I say I made this desk, but, like, even just cutting it to shape and building this, like, extra little thing behind it or whatever, I just, I've come to learn that I have a real issue with creating other problems and projects for myself.
So I think if I had a never-ending money, uh, pool of money, I wouldn't make any music.
You'd be too distracted.
I would be.
I'd just be building shit, and I'm not even a good builder.
I just, it's just the thrill of having a project.
(08:04):
So yeah.
I love what you said about making sure there's less friction.
I think just being in this beautiful space and how you've laid it out, at every turn I'm almost- Welcomed by another instrument Yeah.
(08:25):
Yep, totally intentional.
I've been quite lucky with the band that this, wherever I've kinda lived has always, for the most part usually been where we rehearse.
And we rehearse like twice a week and, uh, we don't have the l- or we have the luxury of not having a drummer, so we can just recur- rehearse with headphones in, you know, do the full thing.
And, over time realizing like how important was that that was constantly accessible.
So prior to me doing sessions with other people, it was always like, oh, you know, there's a spot for Cal, there's a spot for Mitch, there's a spot for me.
(08:50):
Everything's always plugged in.
We just, session, log in.
And having to pivot a little bit to be like, that still exists, but now I need it to function for when I have kinda people flowing in and out.
And even for me as well, like I just wanna be able to have stuff ready to go.
Like I don't wanna have to find a PowerPoint and then, you know, work out where I'm gonna plug it in and all that sorta stuff.
And I've met so many different artists, and I'm sure you've probably experienced the same thing as well, where it's like you feel creative and then you go to do the thing or record something and something doesn't work, and the idea just dies in the ass.
(09:22):
You know, you hit that wall.
And I'm sure it's the same for every creative field.
If your stuff is accessible, it just makes it so much easier to do it.
Yeah.
Well Said.
Yeah.
Well, well said
I love this question.
My next question is something where, as an outsider, you can always have your perception of what you think a guest's answer's gonna be.
(09:47):
Oh, yeah.
But I am constantly surprised at the thing that people tell me.
What is something that you're most proud of creating, and how did it come about?
I think every bit of original music I've ever made has had some level of pride to it, and others, some more than others in terms of, you know, like you listen back to music you've released and you're like, "Oh, we just like really cooked with that one."
(10:11):
Like that one we just… Something happened, it all kind of lined up and there's definitely stuff that I can listen back to, 'cause I like self-produced and learned how to do that and used the band as a way to learn.
There's definitely stuff I listen back to now where I'm like, "Oh, I would love to have known what I do now and it would've sounded different" but I can still be appreciative and proud of that for what it was as a timestamp.
So I think the probably maybe boring answer is like there's certain releases and things we've done where I'm like, "Oh, I just feel like I, have made another step. I really enjoyed the process", all those different things.
(10:40):
But maybe a more interesting one I think is being proud of being able to facilitate creation with people, and I think even with the band stuff, like it being about us becoming such good friends.
The music was the motivator, but the outcome of it has been an entirely different thing.
(11:02):
And yeah, just being really proud of letting stuff go where it wants to go and even doing more sessions with people, even like yourself, it's just this music is just kind of the thing that's bringing people together and I really like that as a, as, a message or a vessel or whatever you wanna call it.
A vehicle, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like… And I think with age and the more I'm doing it, I'm realizing how important it is for human connection.
(11:26):
Like at the end of the day, there is a tangible end result of you have a song or whatever the hell it is.
But I kind of had this epiphany the other week that no amount of streams or followers or anything that's like metric-based will ever make up for or overtake these experiences of like genuine human interaction.
And I think I kind of just wanna live my whole life like that at the end of the day.
Like I wanna be able to look back every day or every week and say, "Yeah, I really enjoyed the fact that we got to hang out and chat about life" and all that sort of stuff.
(11:52):
You know, maybe we didn't make any money, but like who cares?
The money's not important.
The connection and the fulfillment and, I don't know, life and all these other woo woo things, like that is the shit that I feel like the older I'm getting I'm just so excited by and invigorated by.
I'm proud of the fact that my perception and the value of music is kinda changing now to be more about human connection and stuff, When I was younger it was so, like, I wanna blow up and, like, take over the world and, you know, do a million albums, all that sort of shit.
(12:19):
And there's part of me that still loves the idea of that, but only if the process of doing it is fulfilling, and fun, and enjoyable, and, and all that sort of stuff.
I used to be a civil engineer.
That was my day job.
And that was a very like, unfortunately at times, like a real dick-swinging kind of industry, where people would be like, "Oh, you know, I worked on this project and I did this thing," and all that sort of stuff.
(12:39):
And yeah cool.
But like, why are you so miserable?
Like you're, you know, you make all this money, and that's such a big metric of success for you, and your value comes from that.
But like, I can tell you're miserable, you're depressed, you're… Yeah.
So I think I was exposed to that stuff very early on, and it just instilled within me that those aren't motivators for me.
(13:00):
I got that job as an undergrad, and there were red flags, and I think I was just kind of taking stock of them.
And then when I started working more full time and during lockdown, and, you know, would wake up in the morning at like 5:00 to have to go to work, and like stare at myself in the mirror and be like, "Oh man, I'm like a shell of a human now." My heart is pumping, I'm having all these like health issues and stuff, and it's like for what?
(13:21):
I don't know, just it very much wasn't worth it.
And they, yeah, I, I completely agree that you don't know something's bad or something's like doing something to you until you're like already kind of too far or too far down the way.
So that was like a really interesting lesson to take into now what is my job and my career of being a musician, and I fully know that some of those things will happen again potentially.
(13:42):
But the fact that I am now aware to those things ideally means that I'll be able to avoid them or cope with them in a better way, and not just get hit like a truck and, you know, crumble.
But yeah, it's, it is very much you are just a product of your context and experiences and stuff, and sometimes it is trial by fire.
The one analogy I always kind of pull out on people is like the electric fence.
(14:05):
It's like this thing you know is like really fucking up your life, and it's really bad for you or whatever, but like you just keep touching it and then you expect stuff to change.
It's like- when will be enough?
You know, what kind of impact on your life before you're like, "Ah, I should probably stop like grabbing the electric fence and holding onto it for dear life", but easy to say that stuff when you're kind of on the other end of it, and I fully respect when you're in those throes of it, and not even like touching on mental health as well.
(14:29):
It's very easy to be like, "Oh, just get over it," you know, or like, "Get past it," and stuff.
So yeah, want to acknowledge it's easy to say this stuff, but there are, you know, layers and complexity and stuff to it as well.
You can't do it all at once.
Yeah.
And I think one of the major components of this creative life is that we're also trying to be active members in our family.
(14:51):
Yeah.
And we're trying to pay mortgages or pay rent.
Yep.
And, and so yeah, sometimes you can put that creative path and that can be at the forefront.
But then there are other times where it's like, oh, well, I've got this other thing that I need to do, and I need to… family time or- Yeah
relationships or- Yep … whatever it is that's taking more precedent at that moment.
(15:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's an interesting one where I feel like I have conversations with people about "How are you going with the music?" They're like, "Oh, I just kind of don't have the time for it." And again, I'm maybe gonna say something quite broad stroke, but sometimes I think it's not time as much as it's a priority.
And again, fully acknowledge there are things in life that are kind of just non-negotiables, and if that is filling your full capacity, then sure, you know, you don't, you can't find time to be creative.
(15:37):
But something that I've made peace with, Again, like I, I was a engineer, and in a different life I could have absolutely gone down a path and I would've loved it.
I, I did enjoy it, but I always wanted to make music instead, and that was always kind of the end goal.
I also studied architecture, and there was absolutely another world where I would've loved to do that sort of stuff too.
And you know, I kind of wanna be a woodworker and I wanna build a house and I wanna do all this like, just stuff, but I can't do all of it in a way that I would like to do it.
(16:07):
But that's fine, and making peace with that has been really freeing actually.
I was kind of finding that music kept being this like, oh, big what if thing that I really wanna pursue it and stuff.
But also I have this safety net of working and income and all that shit, and that's a really easy thing to hold onto.
And then I kinda got to a point and things aligned in a, a different way, but I was like, "Yeah, fuck it.
(16:27):
Like, the only way I'm gonna find out is to do it.
And I know it's gonna be hard, and I know this is something I wanna do long term, so like I just have to do it and find out.
But that means that I will not have this amount of income.
It means that I won't have job security.
I'll have all these different things that I can't do or can't prioritize in the same way." And it was really, really hard at the start, and it still kind of is.
But yeah, when I start to feel that now I just go, "Well, I chose this," and I can't mourn the things that I can't do if it means it get, gets in the way of the opportunity that I've created for myself, because that's the worst thing that could happen is you're like… And I'm finding this.
(17:02):
I go through waves where I'm like, "Oh, I've, I'm just making music full time now." And full time is a, from a time thing, not necessarily a money thing.
But there's days where I just go like, "Oh, yeah, shit.
Like I created this for myself.
I should be doing this.
Like I've, I've made this opportunity.
I'm as accessible and time valuable as ever.
Like stop fucking around.
(17:24):
Like this is exactly what you wanted.
Do it.
Do the thing," yeah, don't get caught up in being like, "Oh, but you know, I wish I could be a painter, and I wish I could be like a bricklayer, and I wish I could do a kickflip or some shit."
Like to a certain point, like do the thing that you actually wanna do and just stop fucking around.
That's also probably a really great segue into my next question.
(17:44):
'Cause there's definitely some points in there that I wondered while you were speaking whether they would be- Areas in which you've found challenge?
Yeah.
One of the questions that I always ask guests- Yeah … is if you can pinpoint something that's challenged creativity for you- Yeah
(18:04):
and how you've sort of mitigated that and worked through that.
And a lot, and again, not to lead your answer- Mm, mm … but it's interesting how as you're speaking, you're talking about all these learnings- Yeah … and a change of environment that's happened and been instigated by you having to make change- Yeah
and language, even self-talk even, it seems.
(18:26):
But again, don't wanna lead.
No, no.
Don't wanna lead the questions.
Take me to the trough.
But yeah.
Let's do it.
But what has challenged you in that, in this creative life?
Yeah.
To compartmentalize it in different ways.
But needing to work, I think, and just, you know, exist in this capitalist consumerist sort of society, that's something I maybe wasn't as privy to as I am now, and, you know, making active choices around that.
(18:52):
But that was always, and I think is a super-duper common challenge for everyone, is just having time and capacity to do stuff because, the non-negotiables of life take over and all that sort of shit.
But, the biggest one, like without a doubt, and it really sucks, but is just imposter syndrome.
And it really sucks because the more I do it, the more it kinda creeps in, but the more confident I am as well.
(19:16):
It's this weird sort of sliding inverse scale where I go through swings of being like, "I'm as competent and as confident as I've ever been," but also like, "What the fuck am I doing?"
Like, who am I to say, you know, this is right or this is wrong or this is good or like… And it gets complicated too as soon as you start asking money for it as well, and I think that's been an interesting transition of, You know, when it's a band and it's something I'm involved in, it's easy to be like, "Oh, this is just me learning and exploring and, you know, no- I'm not being paid.
(19:45):
I'm just doing it because I wanna make music and it's my own thing." But as soon as that started to transition to working with other people, even for free, that started to creep in.
But as soon as it then became like, "Oh, I actually think I'm worth something," worth something financially at least, 'cause again, being worth something is just such a stupid concept because I'm worth something just 'cause I exist, not whether I put money or finances to it.
(20:07):
Like I- I'm- we're all worth something.
But when you put like a money thing to it, it's instantly like, "Oh shit, am I worth like $300 or 1,000 or two grand or like nothing?" That's been really hard and something to I guess just learn through trial by fire, and that's been… I've pretty much been doing this more professionally speaking for only better part of, oh, just under a year or so, and it's been like a whirlwind of just the music bit's actually been the easiest part.
(20:34):
It's been literally everything else.
It's been all this like self-doubt, the business shit, trying to find clientele, just trying to wrangle my own mental health around all of it as well.
So yeah, the, the challenge has probably been imposter syndrome and being more comfortable and okay with just accepting the fact that I am who I am right now, and that's fine.
(20:58):
Things are gonna change.
I am gonna get better.
This is a long-term thing that I want it to be a sustained career.
Like, I don't want this to be a flash in the pan.
And yeah just dealing with- all these anxieties and stresses about more tangible value-based things, 'cause it's easy for someone to just sort of say like, "Oh, I feel like I wasted my money on that," or, you know, "I really thought it was worth the value," or something.
(21:20):
So that's been like a really interesting thing to sort of deal with and but the positives of that have been by doing a lot of this, I've come to kind of realize like, oh fuck, I actually do know quite a lot.
Like I… And there are skills that I have that certain people don't have, and it's not from a comparative angle of just like this is what I bring to the table, what do you bring to the table?
How do we make something creative and clever and amazing, and have a great time doing it?
(21:43):
And so much of these learnings about mindset shift and growth and, and I don't wanna sound like some kinda, I don't know, tech bro hustle like, "It's all about mindshift, mindset, brother." But like it has been very much about I'm the only thing that's stopping me from achieving what I want to achieve,
And I've kinda had that learning by having conversations with different mentors and community, and building my community of people and stuff and, you know, my friends and the fellas in the band and trusting them and my partner, and asking for feedback on all these different things.
(22:13):
But yeah, that's probably been the biggest challenge.
And then outside of that, just- Yeah.
I'd probably say in a more lame practical business way is just like finding work.
That's just like an ongoing challenge.
And I know that'll always be the case.
Especially in Australia, this kind of industry, all that sort of stuff.
But that's fine.
Whatever.
I've made my peace with that and that's, yeah, kind of motivating
well said.
(22:34):
I love
It is time for my question- Hey … about objects.
Oh, yeah.
I love this question.
Yeah.
'Cause I get the most interesting of things.
If you Could choose one object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating- Oh, yeah … what would it be and why?
(22:59):
I couldn't live without other people and human interaction and still be creative, and I, I kinda had that realization when I was like 16 or 17 when I f- you know, started making music and I like wrote a riff and then like showed a friend, and then we became friends, and we startedjamming, and we became really close mates and, uh, and then I went to my first, proper gig of a band that I really loved and had that moment where I was in a crowd with a bunch of other 16-year-olds like sweating and screaming the lyrics and, you know, all that sort of shit.
(23:26):
And having the realization that I wanna be a person who facilitates that opportunity for connection amongst, friends and peers and stuff.
And also, I love performing and being on stage, and being able to see that, but also connect with the other people I'm on stage with and, and all that sorta stuff.
And I don't know, I just… I think I have been like quizzed on this before over the years just in casual conversations of like, "Oh, you think you, would you ever make music if you couldn't share it?" And I fucking, I don't know if I would.
(23:54):
I… it just feels like such a part of it that it real- is really hard to separate that.
Like, on one hand, I'm like, "Yeah, sure, I'd still make music 'cause I love it and it's personal," and all that sorta stuff.
But at the end of the day, I, I don't know, the most fulfilling moments I get out of it are when I then show it to people, and when I get to make music with other people.
(24:15):
Especially if right now you told me like, "Okay, you can never share your music again," I think I would just implode.
Now having experienced what it is like to share, But if it was like, you know, this other hypothetical of like sharing was never a thing and therefore you, and then you discovered music, maybe I would be able to create, but right now, no.
Like, that would not be possible.
Um, so yeah, probably… Again, it's probably a bit of a cop-out answer, but like human connection and being able to share is my object that I can't live without.
(24:44):
Yeah.
But I think- At a more maybe personal level in terms of physical object stuff, like guitar is the thing that got me into music.
That was, my brother, my older brother got a guitar when I was maybe 12 or 13, and he's only a couple years older.
And I was like, "All right. Well, shit, I have to learn guitar as well. Like, you aren't having that." We, everything's a competition, typical- Yeah, boys … uh, siblings.
(25:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And, we had, you know, different approaches to it and stuff, but yeah, guitar, and I think being 14 and, hearing music on Rage, and my dad, like, listening to Triple J and stuff, and then him showing me stuff, and it, I, I never had that kinda, you know, classic musical family thing where like, yeah, there was records playing all the time, and Dad introduced me to Bowie when I was seven.
(25:29):
Like, that was not us.
And I remember in, like, year eight or whatever, Trent sent me, um, this Block Party song , , and I was just like, "What is this?" I loved exploring and finding music, but the way I was then able to hit this whole other, , experience of creating and making, it was all facilitated by guitar.
(25:49):
That's like what got me into it.
And I've been thinking about this weirdly a lot lately of like, you know, there was moments of music in my younger years.
Like, Nanna had a piano and stuff, and like she had a pianola, and we just sat around and you could pretend you could play it, and it would do this.
And I was like, "Oh, that's amazing.
It's fascinating and stuff." And there were all these little pockets of that sort of stuff.
But as soon as I s- got a guitar and was like learning how to make music and shit, that was just… if I'd never had that, I wouldn't be doing this stuff today, you know?
(26:15):
And I can say that pretty confidently.
I think I would've been an absolute lover of and consumer of music, and a fan, but I think that's one thing, and creating is an entirely different, pursuit.
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold- Just one?
Just one.
You got to ugh.
(26:37):
Oh, God.
Yeah.
Concise.
Yeah.
What would it be?
It's hard because I've had heaps of interpersonal learnings over the last year and my, uh, relationship with music and creation and business success, all these things have really morphed in the last kind of couple years.
But if I could try and hold me to this, if I distill it down into one little like nugget of advice, it is that, the process needs to be fun and enjoyable and you need to really be really, really clear on why you're doing what you're doing and what that entails to try and get to that kinda end goal or success or that certain level of sustainability.
(27:22):
And that would be it.
And I'd be more than happy to elaborate on that in like practical senses.
But yeah, I think it's been really, really brutal in looking inwards about like why are you doing the thing you're doing?
So for me, it's about making music with people I really connect with on a human level.
I don't wanna just make music to try and make money because there's so many easier ways to make money than music.
(27:45):
And I want to enjoy the process.
I wanna be proud of the stuff that I'm making, and I wanna do it sustainably and not burn out and,
Ultimately just wanna live a fulfilled life and not be chasing a destination or an end result.
It's a journey sort of thing.
And as cliche as it sound, that's, that's it.
That's… It's all about just the journey at the end of the day.
And there'll be a point where I've gone, "Yeah, I'm finished with this journey," and I'll move on to the next thing, or I'll pivot and I'll change and- You're turning into a woodworker.
(28:08):
That's it.
That's my thing.
I tell you, when I'm hitting, I don't know what age it'll be, hopefully like late 60s or something when I finally… I've clocked music.
But like yeah that's probably it.
well said.
Again, well said.
Ah, it's, it's a lot of so much just growth and learning and stuff in recent years.
It's been… And that like excites me, and when I look back of like that's music related stuff and my, you know, relationship with creation and creativity and stuff.
(28:35):
But even just since turning 20 to who I am now, like it's exciting to feel like I'm just gonna constantly be learning shit, and that's, that's good.
I think the day you kinda stop learning and I don't know, stop chasing trying to evolve and becoming like a better well-rounded person is like a really sad day.
So I hope that never happens,
With education and YouTube videos and everyone knows so, like- … information's at the fingertips these days.
(29:05):
If someone wanted to do what you do- Yep there any resources that you would recommend if someone wanted to try and put their Thomas hat on?
Yeah.
I think the first step is just, being really clear on what you actually really wanna get out of it at the end of the day.
(29:27):
And the biggest issue with all these resources and stuff is you're just going down a path that's not relevant to you, and that is a plague on all of us.
Especially when you're learning how to, you know, mix and engineer and shit.
There's YouTube channels for days about that stuff, and they're just feeding you shit that's totally not relevant to you and your skillset and stuff.
Something I've really come to appreciate is that in a pr- in practical sense to be like an engineer or a good mixing engineer or a producer and all those sort of things and stuff or a good musician, is that there is a hierarchy or a pyramid rather of how good your music can get, and it all starts with the song at the bottom.
(30:07):
It's fundamentally about the song, the emotion what you're singing about, why it's relevant, then the music and arrangement is obviously all part of that.
But it slowly, the f- closer you get to a finished thing, the less these stages impact the actual outcome of the song.
And as someone who very full of hubris was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna teach myself how to mix," and, you know, I had no idea what the hell I was doing and thought we'd just solve it all in the mix and stuff and, then realized that, oh, maybe the arrangement was cooked and then, oh, maybe the production was like not actually that good and also, yeah, we probably just didn't write like that good of a song, you know.
(30:40):
We're trying to polish a turd, all that sort of stuff.
So if … I think if, to become a really, really good producer, I do think the best producers are really, really good musicians at the end of the day.
They're just really, really good at at arranging composition, lyric writing, melodies, all that sort of stuff.
And then, you know, the skill of producing and learning how to sound design and stuff, that is just like an individual thing that you just kinda get better at.
(31:04):
But yeah, I, I think, and this might again feel like another cop-out answer, is the best resource is just other people, and I mean like physical, real people.
Not saying I'm not anti-AI, not talking about that part of it, but I mean, like, YouTube and stuff is great, but again, it's trying to solve a problem that is not actually maybe specific or actually the thing you're trying to solve.
(31:27):
Sometimes YouTube's great if you have an Excel problem, 'cause it's like, oh, that is just a one and zero, like, you know, it's a mechanical thing.
But if you're like, "Oh, I wanted my bass to sound better" And then you YouTube that and you watch 50 different t- tutorials, and then you end up on this path where you're trying to solve a problem that never existed.
It's just wasted energy.
And I'm not saying that YouTube isn't valuable, but I think having other creative friends and finding other people who are doing what you're doing, and asking them and learning from them and being in that environment, that is absolutely the thing to get better at all this sort of stuff.
(32:00):
Other people are the best resource at the end of the day.
And that's something I've had to learn because and this probably would've been a good answer from the advising earlier of, 'Cause I was full of so much ego and hubris, of like, "I wanna do everything.
I wanna be the one who recorded it.
I wanna be the one who produced it and mixed it and all that sort of stuff.
I have to do everything." But I didn't have the skillset.
(32:21):
I, I wasn't capable of doing that to the level that I thought I was delivering.
So delete your ego.
Accept that you can't do everything.
And even if you can, typically it's more fun to do it with other people anyway.
So branch out, find other creative friends.
Like, be, be self-sufficient, but also, that doesn't have to be the only way you do something.
(32:44):
So yeah, best resource I think would just be getting over yourself and going and finding other people and asking for help and stuff.
Other humans.
Yeah.
If you could have anyone else come on this podcast and answer these questions- Yeah … who would it be and why?
My roommate/band member Mitch would actually be really, really good at this.
(33:07):
I largely credit a good amount of my to him and Emily, but my interpersonal skills and, like, deep thinking and stuff.
But he's, like, one of the deepest thinkers I've met.
Sometimes for the worst you know, which we all are.
But yeah, I think he'd be really, really, really interesting to talk to.
Another friend Tom Garson-Lewis.
He's a super creative guy.
(33:28):
He he's nicknamed Bing Bong.
Don't know why, just is.
But Bing Bong, I think he would be great for this podcast.
He does music.
He makes his own apparel.
He's just a really amazing photographer.
Really, really clever dude.
Love.
Love.
You, actually.
Oh, no, no.
I would love to be on the other end of it.
I'm, I'm the lady behind the camera, mate.
No.
(33:48):
No, no.
No, get Alexis.
We'll start the petition.
No.
Yeah.
No.
No petition.
Not needed.
Not needed.
Oh, my goodness.
Thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door.
Uh, thank you for having me.
Honestly, I feel like we could just spend every Friday night having these chats.
Yeah.
It's been so lovely.
Sorry for yapping so much.
No, I love it.
I love it so much.
Yeah, no.
It's so good.
(34:09):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.