September 14, 2026 • 50 mins
Alexis chats with PAPERCITY, the Aotearoa/New Zealand alt-pop trio blending heartfelt songwriting with soaring pop hooks, gritty guitars and cinematic storytelling. We chat about growing up making music together, finding creativity through community, balancing art with real life, and why being unapologetically yourself is the key to creating something that truly connects.
The band members are:
- Alex Hargreaves — lead vocals, guitar, songwriter and music-video director
- Sam Edmonds — drums / teacher
- Jack Rollinson — guitar/bass instrumentation
If you’d like to see more, you can follow on:
TikTok - @papercityofficial
Instagram - @papercityband
This episode was recorded on 18 August 2026 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Let’s get social:
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Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:49):
I just can't believe that you guys are here.
Can I just say, before I, I've gotta keep listeners in suspense because, can I just say you have the most rabbit hole-y music ever- Oh … that just can't get out of your brain.
But anyway, I digress.
Paper City- G'day
welcome to Melbourne.
(01:09):
Thanks for having us.
G'day.
Welcome to our strange Airbnb.
You guys are popping the podcast cherry of having this many people on the seat at the same time.
Nice.
Well- Heck yeah … which I love.
I love, I love, I love Now you guys are, from what I have found in my little diving down the little rabbit hole, you have had the opportunity to play together and create together once before, before going and dipping your toes into other things and then coming back together in this iteration.
(01:42):
Yes, no?
Yeah, we … Yeah, we've, we're all from Nelson, which is very small town New Zealand, and so we've all played in bands and things around each other, and then now we're just lucky enough to be in a band with our idol, Sam.
(02:03):
Our hero.
Sam's like a like a real small town legend.
He's like- Okay, I need to know this … he was, like, our hero throughout high school, so i- yeah, it's … He's the drumming wizard, and just the general music production wizard.
Yeah, I feel like- yeah … Paper City is just me and Alex being stoked to be in a band with Sam, really.
(02:24):
Yeah.
I wanna start performing facing the other way around so that I get to see Sam play.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
How does that feel?
That's interesting, 'cause I think I was I was on Alex's case pretty hard to try and join the band.
I remember when I first saw Paper City play, before I'd had joined the band, and Alex was knee-high to a kangaroo, as they say.
(02:47):
Hey.
Yeah.
Look what you did there.
I was like, yeah.
Hey.
And she had a little Green Day shirt on.
She went out on stage and just totally rocked it at one of these band performances we have in town, and I was like, "I'm gonna join this band somehow." And then years later, I was like, "Hey, your old drummer, haven't heard of them in a while.
Do you need a new drummer or something?"
(03:08):
And I just … We were actually living together, and I was kinda pissed at her "Hey, you should keep making music. I'll play drums for you if you wanna do a show or something," 'cause her show is always really high energy and really fun.
And then yeah, we just went, yeah.
She was like, "Oh, I got a show," and then, "You're on drums."
I was like, "Cool," and we just went from there.
Love.
Yeah.
Now, in a band setting, creating… i've played iterations of bands before, and there's all shapes of how you create There's two parts to this question, and I'd be curious to know as individuals what creating means, because obviously you've got roles in this iteration, but also you're a creative being yourself.
(03:51):
So what does a creative space mean
to you?
Yeah.
Interesting.
So I think, when I think of a truly creative space, I think of probably Sam's house and… I did some of my first recording, was at Sam's house, 'cause his big brother is a producer.
And it's kinda it's just in this spot in Nelson that's on the top of a hill, and it's kinda like you go up this crazy driveway to get there.
(04:20):
There's, like, all these potholes, so you feel like you've been on a journey once you reach the top, and then there's kinda just you can't see any other houses or anything, and there's just this beautiful garden that the house opens out onto, and it's all kinda centered round the drum room in the middle of the house pretty much.
And I feel that- We're getting a theme here.
Yeah.
(04:41):
Drums.
Drums.
Yeah.
The most important element of being creative.
But yeah, it… I think it's a space that yeah, just really centers in on making music, and so it's really nice for us to vacation there and get to make loud noises and things.
Except for the cats, 'cause I'm allergic to cats Not so much … yeah, sort it out, mate.
(05:03):
Yeah.
I have two beautiful cats.
Shout out Onyx and Graham.
Do you think that animals are integral- To creating?
Ooh.
'Cause I know some people have amazing animals in studios, and they keep the calm and the zen.
100%. Yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
I reckon, yeah, actually 'cause his brother Josh, who we work with a bit, also has a pug that's the studio pug.
(05:29):
So when we were recording Sofa, there was a pug heavily involved in the situation, and I think that- Just like a vibe … yeah … in the corner.
Yeah, honestly, the the pug's snoring is probably somewhere in that recording just adding some texture, and yeah, some good stuff.
Wow.
Yeah, what do you reckon?
What do you reckon, Jack?
Yeah, I reckon Sam's place too, because he's got it set up with all these cool posters and stuff.
(05:52):
But for me, it doesn't quite have the same history as for Alex, 'cause you were recording stuff there when you were young.
So for me, I reckon it's quite important to have a space that feels like it flows, so if you've got a bit of a recording set up, then you've got a guitar there ready to go, or a keyboard that's set up and already plugged in.
So as ideas come, you can kinda just perform them in and just carry on with your idea rather than worry about all the technical stuff and that side of things.
(06:17):
So that'd be important for me at least.
Yeah.
You've kinda got a roll out of bed situation going at the moment, which is pretty good- Pretty much, yeah … I think.
Yeah So with that in mind, especially as a touring ensemble, do you find then that part of that is also creating time in the calendar to be able to use those creative spaces?
(06:40):
Yeah, I think so.
'Cause we actually, we have kind of a weird situation where me and Jack live in Auckland now, in the big smoke.
And this magical house we speak of is in our hometown of Nelson.
And so we do have to kinda carefully carve out the times of like when we're doing recording, when we're doing video shoots and Sam comes to ours, and when we're like, yeah, doing all of the different like creative bits and rehearsals and stuff.
(07:06):
But I think it, it just makes you more mindful of yeah, scheduling and making things happen efficiently, which I actually think is a good thing in a weird way.
'Cause it makes you make the most of bits of time that you have together.
Yeah, I've got something to add to that.
When, 'cause Alex is a s- central pillar of the band, the ringleader.
(07:27):
She's got the ideas, and Jack and I are like here to fulfill them, and just be musicians backing her up.
And it's quite good to when the ideas come and the stars align and Alex gets, all the ducks in a row, and she's like, "Cool, I got this photo shoot, video shoot.
We're gonna write the song.
We're gonna rehearse.
Get a real busy weekend sorted out." And so we kinda drop everything and just do it, and we just get in the creative mode, and the momentum's there, and it's kinda cool having that.
(07:54):
It's a little bit different to other bands.
If you're living in all in the same town, you just pop over and maybe the ideas will come today.
It's like, no, Alex has a plan and she's got it lined out, so Jack and I just kinda get there and do it.
And then we get on the buzz and have this momentum.
So it's like really concentrated pockets of creativity.
Do you ever find that you ever find it difficult to get that momentum, or do you feel that you feed off each other's energy so it's like you can just drop into it once you're, like, in that space together and, and- That's a good question … doing the activity?
(08:25):
With creativity, I think you make habits out of how you are around being productive and stuff.
So I think, yeah, I think we've got it ingrained in us now that, like, when we're doing something we're doing it and we're all in.
Now I feel like that's a great segue to let listeners know exactly like, again, roles and hats.
(08:53):
Alex, I feel like Sam's already said quite a lot of the hats that you already wear in this ensemble, but, obviously vocals, you're a multi-instrumentalist.
You are, it seems from this conversation and from what I can see online, that you're a heavy hitter in regards to the inspiration visually on projects.
(09:15):
As well as obviously one of the main songwriters.
So I'm curious of-
Do you feel that these roles and how your interrelationships are, like that is purely the way that is propelling you forward for those creative spaces?
(09:36):
Is it the same as like they just trust for you to lead and fall in we have a unique situation in the band where it's like Sam's also a vocalist, and Sam y- Sam can play bass.
Jack is an incredible guitarist, songwriter as well.
Yeah.
Drummer as well, yeah.
He's been putting the hours in on the drums too.
(09:57):
He can also sing.
So it's kinda like- Yeah, we could- Don't know that.
We're gonna talk him into singing one day.
We're, we'll, we're gonna make it happen.
Peer pressure
yeah, peer pressure.
I'm sure there's a voice in there 'cause he's so musical.
Yeah, I think there is there's a thing, like, where we, I, there's a lot of trust in that I think we could all rotate around instruments in the band and it would still be making music.
(10:21):
So yeah, I think if Sam or Jack have something to say about anything, it's like I really respect their opinion, and I think yeah, I think we probably all feel that way about everything.
Which is, yeah, cool.
And I think we're all kind of similar people in the way that we process things and think about stuff quite a lot.
(10:44):
It's like attitudes.
Yeah.
We've got similar attitudes, I think.
Yeah.
Similar attitudes towards things, yeah.
That's always the word I come back to.
It's like there's something about us three and that all keeps us on the same page, and it's like an attitude, I think, towards how we look at like making a project work or making a show work or something.
Yeah.
Said.
(11:04):
Love.
Now-
Let's pick on you, Jack, I'm curious, is there something that you're most proud of creating, and how did it come about?
In terms of the band stuff, it would for sure be the Sofa video, I think.
(11:26):
Just because it was like, yeah, the ultimate, like Alex vision for something, I think.
Like we, we didn't know… Sam and I went into that video shoot not knowing anything about it, and we kinda just we went up to Auckland for a few days, and as far as we knew, like we were gonna make a music video.
But then we had to do all these crazy things that Alex was like, "Nah, trust me, it'll look sick." And of course we know it'll turn out well.
(11:50):
Trust the process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But so we ended up like, like Alex climbed inside a giant weather balloon with a guitar somehow, and then popped out of that in time with the song.
And then what else we do?
For the Bored video, we were wrapped in like these crazy cellophane sheets.
Oh, that sucked.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was, it was like the hottest- That looked cool … thing I've ever done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(12:10):
So we just had to perform- They worked hard … like that for ages, and it was so sweaty and horrible, but it looks awesome on camera.
So all the work that went into making both the Bored video and the Sofa video, I think is probably like the proudest band thing that- … I have.
Yeah.
What about you guys?
Yeah, I mean that wa- yeah, that was pretty cool.
(12:31):
That's massive.
And yeah.
That was, yeah, a lot of work and yeah, the boys I guess like they say "Oh, we didn't know what was happening and we just showed up."
But it was like yeah, a few full days of like fully working really hard to get all the shots.
And we're like playing stuff like double speed and everything as well.
The classic music video stuff.
(12:51):
There you go.
I was just about to say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is like always torturous for drummers, 'cause they're trying to get like a good performance going, but they're doing it at an impossible speed.
Yeah.
So that was a lot of work.
For that I had to climb like a mountain.
A mountain.
And like- There's a lot of mountains that you seem to like to climb.
(13:13):
Yeah.
It was like, yeah, when we say "Yeah, we climb mountains," like literally.
Yeah.
And we did it like that was a real process, 'cause we did it twice.
The first time we did it we'd had all the permission and everything to shoot on the mountain that we were on and everything, but we didn't realize that there was like a tower there that was making the drone drop out of the sky.
(13:36):
So yeah, the filming was kinda difficult, so we had to go back to Queenstown, which is not where we live and film again and climb up.
And we were literally like climbing like hands and yeah, hands and feet like up a mountain.
And yeah, I had platform shoes on and had to not fall off the edge.
(13:57):
Yeah.
So that was a pretty rewarding thing to have gotten done I think.
Yeah.
Probably didn't feel super rewarding in the moment, but yeah.
They do say this about the degree of-
fulfillment and proud and achievement.
And they talk about the line of where you start something and it all seems impossible and too big, and there's this peak sort of halfway, three-quarters of the way where you're, like, fully in it doing the hard trenches of the, whatever the exercise is, and then it almost dips after.
(14:36):
So it's like perhaps that is in this sort of journey where the video's released or the song's released.
It's like it's really nice to get the accolades and, people listening to it, but almost when you're in the doing is where you can be like, "Yeah, we did this. Holy shit. What the hell?"
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which it sounds like from what I'm sensing, even if you can't articulate to, articulate it to the listeners of just how intense that time was- Yeah … it seems to me- … that it's the reward of something quite challenging to put together over three days.
(15:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was pretty hectic.
It was like, it's a mountain that's typically snowy as well, and we were … It was, like, just off winter, so it was I jumped in the lake at the bottom as well for some shots, and it was ice water.
It was the water that's just come off the ice.
There was no reason for it to be shot in winter except for- Oh
that we needed it shot.
(15:30):
And you can't see that it's cold, but it was, yeah, it was freezing.
But yeah, and it is nice I think in those moments as well probably not on that shoot day, 'cause these guys actually weren't there, and it's really weird that they weren't up the mountain.
But, In spirit
but they were there in spirit, 'cause I feel like they were there.
But yeah, on the bigger days when ev- everyone and all of the people who are helping to create, a video are there you get to enjoy it together- … which is nice.
(15:59):
How about you, Sam?
Yeah, it was like Jack was saying we kinda didn't know what we were getting into.
We knew it was gonna be a sweet video, and we were really looking forward to making video for the two songs, 'cause we love those songs.
But I remember kinda going out of my way to like not find out too much about the storyboard, 'cause I was just like, "Nah, you know what? I'm just gonna see what Alex is throwing us into. And then, we, we'd do one set, and I was like, "Oh, that, this is a cool setup.
(16:21):
I wonder what, how that's gonna work." And then we'd be like literally building the next set.
She had it like half built, and then we'd be like, "All right, everybody grab a hammer," and, we'd put up the next set.
And it's like, "What is this?" It's oh, there's all this weird wallpaper now.
And then it was like, "Oh we'll find out at the end of the video," so I was kinda like, "You know what?
I'm gonna just keep in the dark a little bit about this one," 'cause, yeah, we know we're in good hands, and we just wanna see. We're just… It's exciting that way, just to have that first watch like everyone else does and see "Oh, that's what we were doing.
(16:50):
I get it now." So I had a really cool first watch of the videos where I got to be like, an audience member, blown away to see it all come together.
So that was, yeah, quite special.
I can't remember what the question was.
Yeah.
The question was about something that you're most proud of creating.
Oh, yeah.
So proud of all that.
(17:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do think there's something really wholesome about- And it seems like you both have that notion of almost wanting that wanderlust to that childlike ability to not have too much information, so you are having the same input, like you said, like everybody else.
(17:32):
Which is a very special and very lovely that Alex allows you to - … do that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is kinda cool.
You, yeah, I guess on the video you're mainly focusing on the performance and- Yeah … getting that right, which is kinda nice.
Yeah.
(17:52):
I think.
Yeah.
But it's also cool to be on set and kinda see the vision come together because, we had no idea what we were doing.
You just had the idea.
So it was like, "Okay, stand here, and we're gonna wrap you all in ropes" And then you see off the side of the set the kinda monitor screen of how it's gonna look, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, that's what we're going for." Yeah.
That's gonna look sweet.
So yeah.
Yeah.
(18:12):
Nice.
I think, yeah, a thing that I'm proud of recently actually was we played a show in our hometown, and it was just packed with kids who were just jumping around, all ages show, and I I climbed onto a barrier, and I was just tired, and I just held… I think I just held the mic out 'cause I was just catching my balance.
(18:34):
And then a whole bunch of kids screamed the lyrics back, and I was like, "Whoa, whoa." And then I just look back onto the stage, and there was, like, my buddies cheesing on stage.
Cheese.
And it's just It's just, yeah, I don't know.
It's just lovely to get to perform with the lads.
Also the support of that crowd was pretty crazy 'cause Alex will go off through the crowd with her mic or whatever, and then they instantly start coiling the cable so that she can get through the crowd.
(18:58):
So it's like- Yeah … oh, everybody's part of it now, yeah.
It's real cool.
Yeah.
Community.
Yeah, it was weird.
Yeah.
People have learnt that I do that in that song, and the, yeah, the crowd just parted, and people were, like, grabbing the cable, and it was… Yeah, it was pretty sweet.
Love that.
See, that's what we want from community.
They're watching.
Yeah.
They're listening.
(19:19):
On the flip side of things that you're proud of,
and my next question's more about what's challenged your creativity.
So it might not be something that's happened in this ensemble, but it might be for you individually.
This is a probably a real kind of surface level one is like a thing that we've turned into a positive of like being in separate places initially started off, I think, quite hard.
(19:44):
But we went through the process of figuring it out, and now it seems really easy of like just, yeah, Sam… 'Cause yeah.
What was hard about it?
I think it, yeah, not having my buddy Sam around.
And like I, so I used to live with Sam, and we'd eat breakfast at 2:00 AM.
We'd go and just have like cornflakes at 2:00 in the morning.
(20:07):
And yeah.
So I think, Yeah, it was just a thing of trying to, surround myself with more creative people and things to fill the hole that Sam left in my life.
Yeah, nah.
But I think we've … I think we've turned it into a positive, which has been good, of just like working out how to be productive, and also just how to hang out even when he's away, where we watch movies and stuff quite regularly together with, yeah, chats going and stuff.
(20:36):
For me, I write songs in the middle of the night.
But when you live with other people that's not a super popular thing to do always.
So you gotta work through those things and find space where you can make noise and not worry about other people, and all of those things.
And then obvious- like I, 'cause I work on music videos and things as well, like for other bands, so I'll be doing like crazy hours on shoots and things.
(21:04):
And then so you've just gotta make sure that you've got time to eat and do all of the things that you need to do so that you're like healthy for when you play shows and things, as well as making sure that you're like still able to write the music that you want to write because you've got the right space and time and, yeah, mindset, for doing that.
(21:27):
I think that's, yeah.
How do you juggle those things?
Is there- Have you ever had a time where that juggle has been too much?
Yeah, I think I think I know when it's probably about too much when I go home and my mom's like, "Ugh." And just starts like- Sorry, say that again … "Ugh." And then starts- She just freaked out by the sight of you.
(21:50):
Yeah, it's when she starts like cutting up fruit- Yeah.
… and like passing it to me.
That's what mom's do.
Yeah.
My mom does that, yeah.
Yeah.
I think- Things just appear?
Yeah.
You- My mom does that too … just like fruit appears around you, and then, yeah.
Protein.
And and moisturizer and like vitamins and things- Yeah
are just like being tossed at your face.
You're not looking healthy.
(22:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, you're not looking your best.
But yeah, that's probably when I know that yeah, I've been through a stressful patch.
But I think it is juggling is probably the best word for it because when you're doing these, like short projects and things, like music videos and, like TV shows and things that's never gonna be something where you can be like, "From these hours on this day, every day of the week I do this, and then I do this."
(22:38):
th- It does come day by day and week by week, and you've just got to try and make sure that you're looking after yourself, I think.
Yeah.
I think that's a thing that I've realized recently is that sleep is actually quite good for you.
So like I'm like as long as I'm doing it s- at some point…
And I, yeah, I have a bone to pick with the universe, and that is that I think that people should be allowed to be awake at nighttime and asleep in, a little bit into the day.
(23:05):
And I think that should be okay.
'Cause I think I definitely just naturally drift into that kind of thing of like feeling really awake quite late at night, and then I'm like, "I'm getting my best work done."
But also the world really does seem to frown upon you being in bed when the sun's out.
I'm here to petition for equality for, Circadian rhythms … yeah, so my creative challenge is I in Auckland I used to work for this, I used to work a job that was like in a creative industry.
(23:38):
And I thought that was gonna be a, like a dream job because I get to be creative all day, and I get paid for it.
But I actually found it really difficult because you finish one project or y- you know, you're on the clock and it's it's…
It wasn't like a binary job of like you do the work or you don't do it, like stacking a warehouse or something, shelves in a warehouse.
It was how creative can you be today?
(24:00):
And I found that really hard, like mentally, quite exhausting.
Going home each day just being like, "Was I creative enough today?"
And then I had to do it again tomorrow and almost have to like one-up myself.
I don't know if that pressure was put on at the j- I think it was more self-pressure, like I put that on myself, but I definitely notice it really like- exhausted me.
(24:21):
And I stopped doing music for a year or two while I was working there, and it was, like, a really weird time, 'cause that was…
i've done music my whole life, so it was like it's almost like I had too much creative stuff going on.
And I think if I'm doing music I almost need… If I've got a day job going on, that almost needs to be m- maybe a mindless thing, so then I can be creative, change gear and be like, "Now I can be creative and do music and stuff."
(24:44):
'Cause I found it w- it was an in- incredible company.
I absolutely adored everyone else that worked there, 'cause they were just amazing, and I wanted to be better for them, but it was just so hard to… when you're being paid to, it was like it's a different kind of creativity, whereas with music, it's like, the pay's a bonus, it'd be nice to get paid, and sometimes it happens, but quite often it doesn't.
(25:04):
But that's okay, because the reward is something else.
Like looking out and seeing people just grinning at you while you're playing drums or something, my- No, it's, it's such a valid point to make.
Yeah.
I- It- … have so much to say about this.
But- Yeah w- we, I feel like we think working a creative job is the goal.
Yeah.
But for me, I think f- I think it is for some people, but how my brain works, I actually found it really challenging.
(25:26):
Yeah.
Being creative every single day was, like…
Or being expected to be creative every single day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like you've worked your way into what's quite good now though, like of- Yeah … where you're working on music all day, but it's s- still something that i- isn't, like, sucking out, like… There's not expectant people waiting f- for you to- Yeah.
(25:52):
Yeah.
I think that- I guess, yeah, it's not It's more of a formulaic thing where you can- Yeah, I've gotten better, better at it.
But yeah, there was definitely a time where I learnt, yeah, the hard way, trying to figure out yeah, how to juggle the whole cr- creativity as a job, is the whole concept.
I think when you start a creative life, it can seem that there is particular pathways and-
(26:17):
I'm sure you, from what we're speaking about, you're the same as me.
It's like everyone's path's a little different.
The strings in your bow and how you get that to work.
We've had some guests on the podcast where they've spoken about, it's like going back to their why of what, what does a, not just a creative life look like, but what does a life look like that I wanna lead?
(26:38):
And does that mean that you get to spend time in the garden and be able to pick things up and put things down creatively, or play with your niece and your nephew, or whatever that looks like.
And I think, yeah, you've just articulated a way in which you've gone, cool, so this particular scenario of creative life didn't work for you.
(26:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you find it challenging to come to that realization?
Or was it more of a burnout stage of like- Yeah … losing so much creativity that you were like, "Ah"?
Yeah, good question.
I think it was, I think it, I think I woke up one- well, I say it as an analogy waking up one day, but it probably happened over a few weeks.
(27:22):
But I think I just realized I haven't played a show in a year, and that that isn't me.
I n- I have to play shows, that's just who I am.
That's what I've wanted to do since I was a kid.
So it's wait, what am I doing?
And so I left this really amazing well-paying, stable job in a creative industry to then, go do music and throw all my money away to be in a band and learn, important lessons.
(27:47):
But now we're out the other side of it now, and I'm playing with these guys more and having, playing heaps of fun shows.
So it was and I'm not making much money from music, it's enough to get by.
But what I'm say- I keep talking about money.
What I'm saying is, because this is a big pressure we have in society about doing something you love as a job, and I think more recently I've found y- yeah, everything's evened out a bit.
(28:09):
There's a few things that there's a reason that, for that, a few different things, but I think a, a big part of it is just finding my place in music and being creative and just what I can bring to people in music, rather than… There's all this pressure of being the best at it.
But I guess I was raised was, like, being, like, your best at it.
Do your best.
It doesn't have to be the best.
(28:29):
And so I'm just trying to like… Yeah, it sounds a bit cheesy- Yeah … but I'm that's what I… Because I teach- Yeah … a lot of drums as well.
Balance, yeah.
And the harsh reality is you're always gonna, you're probably always gonna find someone better than you at something.
'Cause there's a lot of people out there, and people are just good at stuff now, but that's okay.
'Cause no one's gonna be, like, better than you at it, better at sounding like you on the drums or something.
(28:53):
So I'm always telling the kids or, my students "We've just got to figure out what your voice is on the instrument or your voice is in the music world and just, "'cause there's gonna, you'll find an audience for that, people are gonna love to hear you playing the drums, so we've just got to try and figure out, what that is or what that sounds like." Yeah.
Said.
Thanks.
(29:13):
Yeah, actually carrying on from what Sam said, it's not as intense as leaving your job for music and all that.
For Sam, intense.
Yeah.
Yeah, 'cause that's a pretty big thing, man.
But so around the time that I met Sam I was, like, kinda just leaving high school, and going through that whole thing of do I go and study music?
'Cause I was kinda like the music guy in high school and just doing that for every class, basically.
(29:36):
And yeah, a similar thing in some ways, but you get all this pressure around "Ah you're obviously gonna go and study music and do a degree in it", and all of that.
And you have all these people telling you that.
And so I went and studied music.
And then halfway through the year was like, "Actually I feel like I'm not getting a lot out of this, and this maybe isn't what I wanna do."
And for me at least, that was like, that's the point that I can remember in my entire life where I was like, "Oh, I don't know where I'm headed with stuff." And luckily, I'd met Sam around that time, and had these kind of conversations with him about that sort of stuff.
(30:11):
And ended up joining a bunch of bands with him.
And so on my uni breaks, I was going back to Nelson.
'Cause I was studying in Wellington, I'd fly back to Nelson for the holidays, and we'd go out and play a bunch of shows and tour and do all these things.
And then realized just through talking to Sam, who'd already had quite a bit of experience with doing that stuff and been through all this sort of stuff before that I was actually learning quite a bit more just doing it in real life compared to, being in a classroom with some dude who's 60 talking about how he was touring when he was, like, 20 or whatever.
(30:42):
So yeah, I'd- I made that decision to not continue studying music and just join Paper City and some other groups and stuff, and just go out there and do it.
And then found my feet in the industry a little bit by doing that.
So I think also, just trusting your instincts rather than trying to listen to I don't know, people- Hired people.
(31:04):
Yeah.
People who are like, "This is what you should be doing", yeah.
And then trying it, and you're like, "Actually, no, this isn't what I should be doing." Yeah … if that makes sense.
100%. Yeah.
And I think it really encapsulates the fact that when we are struggling with something, that one of the best things that we can do is talk to our community and talk to our peers.
(31:25):
And chances are, like you just said, certain people have either heard of that or have felt that themselves or, can give some guidance, some advice.
Yeah, I think yeah, it was probably 'cause Sam had just been through the things that you were starting to go through at that time.
Yeah, he'd probably see that a little more, so yeah.
It's probably perfect, which way better than like a university tutor who hasn't played a show in years.
(31:49):
Yeah, I had interesting thing with the study thing because I also like, when I was at high school Mike Chun from Split Enz was like giving me a bit of advice.
And I was kinda like, I kinda did the same thing of oh, I have to study music I guess, 'cause that's like what I want to do.
And he just said, "No, just study something that makes you interesting as a person." Oh.
(32:11):
And I think like that is, it's probably a really Split Enz way to look at that just in terms of how they think about art as a band.
But yeah, I think that was like, 'cause I just went to film school for a year- Jas … instead.
But yeah.
It, yeah, I think I got way more out of that for music than I did out of any music studies that I've ever done.
(32:35):
So yeah, that was huge advice.
Thanks, Mike.
A lot can be said for-
You can be an amazing musician, but if you haven't lived a life or experienced things, w- what exactly…
we encapsulate so much of the human experience in what we create.
Yeah.
And it's pretty difficult to be able to communicate to that people if you haven't actually had a chance to do anything.
(33:00):
Yeah.
So living a life is also- Yeah, like- … part of feeding that creativity, like- Yeah, you gotta write songs about something.
Yeah.
Have it- And if you don't have, you don't have something, then you're writing about- Nothing … not much, yeah.
And you can hear that in songs, eh, where it's like, "Oh, this person maybe hasn't done much. It's a bit boring" Or maybe it's not connecting with you.
It might be connecting with someone else, but yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(33:21):
Yeah, no, 'cause film school i- it teaches you storytelling, and I think honestly that probably connects, like… Music schools are trying to teach you how to play well or play properly or, play by the book rather than- Yeah … yeah, actually- What's the world- Yeah
that you're trying to create?
Yeah.
What's the art you're trying to make?
And yeah, so I think, yeah, probably other art forms actually have way more to teach us about our own than we think, for sure.
(33:49):
I think probably it's important to say as well we're not anti-music schools.
Yeah.
That- Hey, I finished my diploma- Yeah
at music school, yeah.
But I think what we're trying to say really if somebody out there was in the same kinda situation, is that's not the only option to get into the creative industry, whether that's film- Yeah … or music or whatever.
You can just learn stuff and meet people and go out there and do it, yeah.
(34:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You definitely need to, what is it?
You have to learn the rules before you can break them or- Yeah … yeah.
I would say that- So you gotta learn how to play well first, but- If I can quick yarn about… Yeah Alex and I… I studied filmmaking as well at, at a different spot to Alex, but s- similar kinda thing, and it teaches you how to connect with an audience, or how to convey emotion or something, which is huge part of music, yeah, and it kinda goes hand in… filmmaking goes hand in hand with a lot of, music making, so it's a good little side, Cyclical Yeah.
(34:36):
Yeah Little parallel thing that just runs along.
Yeah, so there's a lot of little crossovers there.
Yeah, and you meet all the interesting weirdos as well- Yeah
at film school, which is, yeah.
Creative type, yeah.
Just like meeting theater people.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Don't even start it.
But that is a great segue into one of my questions, which if someone wanted to develop their creative process and do what you do, which is, a- again, I'm getting a sense that it is putting yourself in other c- circumstances and learning about film and storytelling.
(35:13):
But apart from doing tertiary studies, which it seems that you've all dabbled in, is there other resources, short courses, books, things if someone wanted to do what you do that you would recommend?
Yeah, I think honestly 'cause we're probably not the most, like, social human beings.
But I do think there is something to actually talking to the other creative people in your communities, and that's I think, yeah, if I hadn't been able to tour with Sam's band when I was a kid, and be around those kind of creatives, I think, yeah, there's like a whole lot of development for me that wouldn't have happened.
(35:57):
But that just comes from putting yourself in those- Rooms … yeah, putting yourself in those rooms.
And yeah, I think there's often a lot of people who would be willing to work with you and stuff that you wouldn't have thought.
It's like- I don't, I often write with anyone else, but I would say it probably is a really great thing to do, and just to put yourself out there.
(36:22):
It's really scary, but go and co-write with some people.
And I think like it's the thing of the people around you are actually like your biggest assets and yeah I reckon you'd probably get way more out of like the other human beings who are all trying to do a similar thing than from books.
I have dyslexia though, so-
(36:43):
The book allergy is real.
Oh, Jack reads.
Jack reads.
Jack reads.
He reads.
Yeah.
So I, yeah, I'm interested to hear what you would think.
Okay.
Yeah.
To, to be fair, I have read a few books on like- And podcasts and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Playing guitar and like production and that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Literature.
But I w- I would still agree.
I've definitely learnt, like I was saying, like I learnt a lot more from knowing Sam and Alex than I learnt from studying music at university.
(37:09):
So yeah, definitely agree with that.
But yeah, you can still learn from books.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna turn away books.
If you- I feel like there's a lot of disclaimers.
Yeah.
We're not s- books are bad.
Yeah.
Love a good book.
Books are bad and books are good.
You can learn from- Yeah.
And like audiobooks are there as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I did take an online course just teaching how to do music production when I was in high school.
(37:33):
Because I'm sure it's changed a bit since I was in school now, but around that time you could record at home, but they weren't necessarily teaching that stuff in school.
So just going and buying a… I think it was like 20 or $30 and just taught you an introduction to professional recording software.
That was probably the best money I've spent, because now I work in the creative industry and do all that stuff all the time.
(37:54):
So you can for sure do that kind of stuff.
But then also yeah, hanging out with people who know more than you.
So again, like- Yeah … Sam and Alex for me, being in the industry longer than me, so they were really good to learn from trying to break into the mus- industry, and had done stuff before, I think you're constantly learning from each other as well.
It's like a constant thing.
(38:14):
And yeah.
I think also yeah, YouTube, there's like- Oh, yeah … so much stuff now that yeah, you can kinda learn to do anything.
But so there's sort of- there's almost no excuses.
Except for-
being able to push yourself is probably the… Yeah.
And I think also there's so many, yeah I feel for the people who are from smaller towns in the world- … like we are, 'cause there's o- obviously not as many resources, but there are quite a lot of youth spaces and things now that are- You were gonna steal my yarn
(38:46):
open.
Oh we have the same yarn.
Yeah, great minds think alike.
Yeah.
But I think it's, yeah, just getting involved with those sort of, yeah, those spaces where there's a whole lot of creative people working and trying to get amongst it.
What was your yarn?
Yeah.
Reiterating what Alex said.
We got bloody book nerd over here- Yeah.
(39:06):
… and then we got dyslexia- Yeah … and then me probably dyslexic somehow as well.
I think, yeah, and coming from a small town myself, this is more for… no, this is for anyone, I think a really important resource is your community.
Like what Alex said.
Yeah Investing in your community, going out to the weird indie shows.
Yeah … or going out to I don't even know what that genre is.
Go to it.
Find out.
(39:27):
You know what I mean?
Oh, I don't like it.
That's cool.
You went and found out.
Go to the next one anyway, just double check, or put on a show in your parents' garage or something, or just find the crappy sounding room and just chuck an instrument down and get your friends there, and just invest and build up that scene.
That's what we've been doing, my friends and I, in, in Nelson.
We've got this, little quiet seaside village, and we're trying to make this little music scene happen, and it's, there's cool stuff taking roots there now because there's been a few key figures there just on the grind every weekend, just "Let's just put this show…"
(39:58):
Just brute forcing it, and then all of a sudden, Yeah, it just starts growing … people just start coming out.
Yeah.
And it's like- Yeah … and you just be nice to be around, and it's "Oh, I wanna go be around the nice people this Friday night." And then it happens to be around a place of music, and then all of a sudden they're actually fans of music, and then they go the next time and they bring their friends.
So what I'm saying is an important resource, if you don't have access to all the snazzy books or whatever, is your community.
(40:25):
Yeah.
Make your own music community.
Yeah.
Said.
Yeah.
Nice.
Said.
Yeah.
Now,
interesting questions around the table.
Is there an object or thing, Jack, that you can't live without when you're creating?
Sam Edmonds.
(40:45):
Sam, man of the hour.
Overwhelming.
I feel like a really obvious answer is just whatever inspires you to be creative, so me being, like, a musician, probably a guitar.
You don't have any lucky socks, or- Ah, not lucky socks.
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe coffee is inspiring for me.
It motivates me.
How about you, Alex?
I, yeah, I have the brute force thing of songwriting, where you just put a blank A4 piece of paper in front of you and go, "There's gonna be a song on here," Is that how you do it?
(41:17):
in moments.
Yeah.
Mainly.
Sometimes I just wake up in the middle of the night and just have to write a song, but yeah, I think that's… Sometimes you put out two pieces of paper, and you go, "There's gonna be two songs here- Whoa … in moments." Yeah.
Can I just say, I love that I facilitated you learning about the band.
Yeah.
Yeah, these are like mysterious things.
How about you, Sam?
(41:38):
Have you got an object or thing?
Oh, I do, but it's a bit che- No, hear it.
Come on.
It's not, it's kind of- What is it?
It's kinda break- what is it?
It's breaking the rules again.
Yeah.
Okay, so I'll just- Breaking rules?
Not really.
It's not like an object.
It's like a, I'm getting all meta- spiritual.
No, I love it.
Go.
Okay, I'll just, I'll make it quick.
So I think- No … I'm a big believer in, Good what is it?
Good things t- take time, great things happen all at once.
(41:58):
You can work on something for ages and it, it might, you might make a good thing, which is good, but I think the most exceptional stuff and the real special stuff, just like lightning in a bottle, just like zaps you and it's like, bam, what was that?
I don't know.
It was a moment in time.
And people can, you can hear that in music, or you can see that in art or whatever.
Momentum is my- useful tool.
(42:18):
Yeah.
Good.
Get that momentum and then just dr- go for it.
Yeah.
And then when it's gone, try get it back, but not too hard.
And just wait for that momentum again, maybe.
I don't know.
Different strokes for different folks, but try something like that.
That usually works for me.
That's good.
Yeah, that's good.
Now, if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold- what would it be?
(42:39):
One piece of gold to someone wanting to do music?
Yeah, or be creative or- Or be creative … you- Yeah
The piece of advice, I think s- you touched on that earlier, but I think there's a thing where people feel this like massive pressure to try and th- look at a musician and go, "I wanna be like that, and I need to try and be better than that person there."
(43:02):
But I think you really do just need to be the best you can be, and do what interests you, and do what you like doing.
'Cause I think it's also, it's quite infectious when you see someone doing something that they love to do, regardless of what kind of like medium it's in it's just, it's, it, it's- It's inspiring
(43:24):
yeah, it's inspiring and you want to watch it.
And that's why like when people make documentaries about all sorts of weird niche things that people love, it's y- you can't help but watch 'cause it's yeah, like people like to watch people do the things that they love to do.
And like if it truly comes from you, I think yeah, other people will feel that.
(43:45):
When we watch like Lorde come up through New Zealand like the way she is on stage, some people were kinda like, "Oh, she's, doing her freaky thing," but like that's like her going all out live doing what she does, and it's and people love it, and she tours the world doing that 'cause she's the best version of herself.
So just do what you love doing and yeah I think that's huge.
(44:11):
Yeah, that's really good.
Yeah, which I think is like it carries across to any form of art as well.
Sure, yeah.
I would just like to add on to that, add on or have your own- it's sort of- … little quote … a bit of both, like just try and be inspired by not one thing, like- Yeah … rather than being like, "Yeah, I wanna sound like Green Day, and that's all I wanna do." 'Cause that was me for ages as a kid when I was learning guitar.
(44:35):
I just wanna sound like this one band that I really like, but- And he had the hair, and it was great.
It was great.
Yeah.
At like primary school.
At primary school he had the Green Day hair.
His parents let him dye his hair black.
Yeah.
It was cool.
I dyed my hair black- Yeah … 'cause I wanted to look like Billie Joe Armstrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, getting older, like I find I'm influenced by like films and a lot of other things.
(44:57):
And when I'm… As Sam was saying earlier, I listen to a lot of podcasts and things and it's usually with y- musicians sometimes, but then also like directors, and actors, and lots of other people.
And I think just like trying to expose yourself to a lot of different forms of media and like types of music you might not have checked out and stuff is really important because if you're like just listening to rock music or something, you can only be inspired by so much, so just checking out anything that you find inspiring, and not thinking "Oh, this isn't music.
(45:27):
Like, why am I interested in that?" And kinda second-guessing it.
Just follow what you are feeling passionate about and interested in, 'cause I find like that in terms like kinda fuels my creat- creativity as a musician in some ways.
So that's important for me at least.
Yeah.
Said.
Yeah, that's… Yeah.
Yeah.
That's Yeah.
That's so true.
Man, that's so good.
(45:49):
Yeah, 'cause like- Sam, what are you… What is your thoughts of nuggets of gold piece of advice?
I'll probably end up repeating myself, but go to shows.
Support your local- Mate … DIY music scene.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll get on a rant or something, so I'll keep it at that.
Succinct.
(46:09):
Yeah.
Wow.
Succinct.
I'll kinda repeat myself anyway.
No, love it.
No, you're good.
No, this… Like I said, very conversational.
All good.
Yeah.
Now, before I close it off- I do have a question, and it, you can have a collective answer or it could be individual.
But if you could, and I don't wanna say throw someone under the bus, but throw them more into the Through The Creative Door bus- Okay
(46:36):
and answer these questions , who would it be and why?
Ooh.
There's actually like a local band called Dempsey they're really cool.
They're a new band, and they're like a brother/sister duo, and the guitarist who's in it now is from New Zealand, and he's really cool.
And yeah, we… He was in a really good New Zealand band that disbanded a couple years ago, and we were… I think I was personally really worried.
(47:05):
I was like, 'cause I hadn't seen him in ages, and I was like, "Oh, no. Is he not doing music now?" And then I found out he's just living here now, and he's in this awesome band.
You should check them out.
They've got a song called Two Step that's out and it's really cool.
I will stalk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I reckon they're a good stalk.
In the most consensual way on social media as possible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
(47:25):
Nice.
. Coast Arcade, another Kiwi band, are on tour here at the moment I think as well.
I think they just finished.
Oh, they might have just finished, but if they're back you should talk to them.
Yeah, that's it.
Or I could come to New Zealand.
Yeah.
Yeah, true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Auckland actually has this amazing new venue that's all ages, and it was started by Joel Little and his wife, Jemma Little.
(47:48):
And so Joel's the producer who produced Lorde's first album, and he's done Taylor Swift and stuff, and he's basically investing back in the local community, and he started this amazing all ages venue, and it, it's just perfect.
Exactly what the New Zealand music scene needs, and there's all of these cool bands that are coming out of there now because- … there's a space for them to go.
(48:11):
And parents feel safe letting their kids go to the shows there.
So yeah, you should come and play a show there, and also talk to all of the locals.
Oh, my God, that sounds amazing.
Yeah, and also Big Fan is they're putting on opportunities for a lot of kids in terms of learning how to play live and record and do all that kind of stuff, 'cause they've got music studios upstairs above the venue as well.
(48:32):
So you can, like- Yeah … you can go there and play a show, and then you c- can record a song up there too.
So they put on a lot of programs around we're gonna teach kids how to put on a live show and how to produce a song and all that kind of stuff.
So it's cool that there's a place in New Zealand that's doing that because we're such a small country, and I feel like we probably haven't had something like that for a long time.
Yeah.
So come and interview Joel Little.
(48:55):
Perfect.
It's, yeah.
Oh, my God, love it.
Thank you so much for coming on the poddy.
For those who have not heard of you guys, they need to get Paper City in your ear holes,
thank you.
Woo.
I just can't believe that you guys are here.
Can I just say, before I, I've gotta keep listeners in suspense because, can I just say you have the most rabbit hole-y music ever- Oh … that just can't get out of your brain.
But anyway, I digress.
Paper City- G'day
welcome to Melbourne.
(01:09):
Thanks for having us.
G'day.
Welcome to our strange Airbnb.
You guys are popping the podcast cherry of having this many people on the seat at the same time.
Nice.
Well- Heck yeah … which I love.
I love, I love, I love Now you guys are, from what I have found in my little diving down the little rabbit hole, you have had the opportunity to play together and create together once before, before going and dipping your toes into other things and then coming back together in this iteration.
(01:42):
Yes, no?
Yeah, we … Yeah, we've, we're all from Nelson, which is very small town New Zealand, and so we've all played in bands and things around each other, and then now we're just lucky enough to be in a band with our idol, Sam.
(02:03):
Our hero.
Sam's like a like a real small town legend.
He's like- Okay, I need to know this … he was, like, our hero throughout high school, so i- yeah, it's … He's the drumming wizard, and just the general music production wizard.
Yeah, I feel like- yeah … Paper City is just me and Alex being stoked to be in a band with Sam, really.
(02:24):
Yeah.
I wanna start performing facing the other way around so that I get to see Sam play.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
How does that feel?
That's interesting, 'cause I think I was I was on Alex's case pretty hard to try and join the band.
I remember when I first saw Paper City play, before I'd had joined the band, and Alex was knee-high to a kangaroo, as they say.
(02:47):
Hey.
Yeah.
Look what you did there.
I was like, yeah.
Hey.
And she had a little Green Day shirt on.
She went out on stage and just totally rocked it at one of these band performances we have in town, and I was like, "I'm gonna join this band somehow." And then years later, I was like, "Hey, your old drummer, haven't heard of them in a while.
Do you need a new drummer or something?"
(03:08):
And I just … We were actually living together, and I was kinda pissed at her "Hey, you should keep making music. I'll play drums for you if you wanna do a show or something," 'cause her show is always really high energy and really fun.
And then yeah, we just went, yeah.
She was like, "Oh, I got a show," and then, "You're on drums."
I was like, "Cool," and we just went from there.
Love.
Yeah.
Now, in a band setting, creating… i've played iterations of bands before, and there's all shapes of how you create There's two parts to this question, and I'd be curious to know as individuals what creating means, because obviously you've got roles in this iteration, but also you're a creative being yourself.
(03:51):
So what does a creative space mean
to you?
Yeah.
Interesting.
So I think, when I think of a truly creative space, I think of probably Sam's house and… I did some of my first recording, was at Sam's house, 'cause his big brother is a producer.
And it's kinda it's just in this spot in Nelson that's on the top of a hill, and it's kinda like you go up this crazy driveway to get there.
(04:20):
There's, like, all these potholes, so you feel like you've been on a journey once you reach the top, and then there's kinda just you can't see any other houses or anything, and there's just this beautiful garden that the house opens out onto, and it's all kinda centered round the drum room in the middle of the house pretty much.
And I feel that- We're getting a theme here.
Yeah.
(04:41):
Drums.
Drums.
Yeah.
The most important element of being creative.
But yeah, it… I think it's a space that yeah, just really centers in on making music, and so it's really nice for us to vacation there and get to make loud noises and things.
Except for the cats, 'cause I'm allergic to cats Not so much … yeah, sort it out, mate.
(05:03):
Yeah.
I have two beautiful cats.
Shout out Onyx and Graham.
Do you think that animals are integral- To creating?
Ooh.
'Cause I know some people have amazing animals in studios, and they keep the calm and the zen.
100%. Yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
I reckon, yeah, actually 'cause his brother Josh, who we work with a bit, also has a pug that's the studio pug.
(05:29):
So when we were recording Sofa, there was a pug heavily involved in the situation, and I think that- Just like a vibe … yeah … in the corner.
Yeah, honestly, the the pug's snoring is probably somewhere in that recording just adding some texture, and yeah, some good stuff.
Wow.
Yeah, what do you reckon?
What do you reckon, Jack?
Yeah, I reckon Sam's place too, because he's got it set up with all these cool posters and stuff.
(05:52):
But for me, it doesn't quite have the same history as for Alex, 'cause you were recording stuff there when you were young.
So for me, I reckon it's quite important to have a space that feels like it flows, so if you've got a bit of a recording set up, then you've got a guitar there ready to go, or a keyboard that's set up and already plugged in.
So as ideas come, you can kinda just perform them in and just carry on with your idea rather than worry about all the technical stuff and that side of things.
(06:17):
So that'd be important for me at least.
Yeah.
You've kinda got a roll out of bed situation going at the moment, which is pretty good- Pretty much, yeah … I think.
Yeah So with that in mind, especially as a touring ensemble, do you find then that part of that is also creating time in the calendar to be able to use those creative spaces?
(06:40):
Yeah, I think so.
'Cause we actually, we have kind of a weird situation where me and Jack live in Auckland now, in the big smoke.
And this magical house we speak of is in our hometown of Nelson.
And so we do have to kinda carefully carve out the times of like when we're doing recording, when we're doing video shoots and Sam comes to ours, and when we're like, yeah, doing all of the different like creative bits and rehearsals and stuff.
(07:06):
But I think it, it just makes you more mindful of yeah, scheduling and making things happen efficiently, which I actually think is a good thing in a weird way.
'Cause it makes you make the most of bits of time that you have together.
Yeah, I've got something to add to that.
When, 'cause Alex is a s- central pillar of the band, the ringleader.
(07:27):
She's got the ideas, and Jack and I are like here to fulfill them, and just be musicians backing her up.
And it's quite good to when the ideas come and the stars align and Alex gets, all the ducks in a row, and she's like, "Cool, I got this photo shoot, video shoot.
We're gonna write the song.
We're gonna rehearse.
Get a real busy weekend sorted out." And so we kinda drop everything and just do it, and we just get in the creative mode, and the momentum's there, and it's kinda cool having that.
(07:54):
It's a little bit different to other bands.
If you're living in all in the same town, you just pop over and maybe the ideas will come today.
It's like, no, Alex has a plan and she's got it lined out, so Jack and I just kinda get there and do it.
And then we get on the buzz and have this momentum.
So it's like really concentrated pockets of creativity.
Do you ever find that you ever find it difficult to get that momentum, or do you feel that you feed off each other's energy so it's like you can just drop into it once you're, like, in that space together and, and- That's a good question … doing the activity?
(08:25):
With creativity, I think you make habits out of how you are around being productive and stuff.
So I think, yeah, I think we've got it ingrained in us now that, like, when we're doing something we're doing it and we're all in.
Now I feel like that's a great segue to let listeners know exactly like, again, roles and hats.
(08:53):
Alex, I feel like Sam's already said quite a lot of the hats that you already wear in this ensemble, but, obviously vocals, you're a multi-instrumentalist.
You are, it seems from this conversation and from what I can see online, that you're a heavy hitter in regards to the inspiration visually on projects.
(09:15):
As well as obviously one of the main songwriters.
So I'm curious of-
Do you feel that these roles and how your interrelationships are, like that is purely the way that is propelling you forward for those creative spaces?
(09:36):
Is it the same as like they just trust for you to lead and fall in we have a unique situation in the band where it's like Sam's also a vocalist, and Sam y- Sam can play bass.
Jack is an incredible guitarist, songwriter as well.
Yeah.
Drummer as well, yeah.
He's been putting the hours in on the drums too.
(09:57):
He can also sing.
So it's kinda like- Yeah, we could- Don't know that.
We're gonna talk him into singing one day.
We're, we'll, we're gonna make it happen.
Peer pressure
yeah, peer pressure.
I'm sure there's a voice in there 'cause he's so musical.
Yeah, I think there is there's a thing, like, where we, I, there's a lot of trust in that I think we could all rotate around instruments in the band and it would still be making music.
(10:21):
So yeah, I think if Sam or Jack have something to say about anything, it's like I really respect their opinion, and I think yeah, I think we probably all feel that way about everything.
Which is, yeah, cool.
And I think we're all kind of similar people in the way that we process things and think about stuff quite a lot.
(10:44):
It's like attitudes.
Yeah.
We've got similar attitudes, I think.
Yeah.
Similar attitudes towards things, yeah.
That's always the word I come back to.
It's like there's something about us three and that all keeps us on the same page, and it's like an attitude, I think, towards how we look at like making a project work or making a show work or something.
Yeah.
Said.
(11:04):
Love.
Now-
Let's pick on you, Jack, I'm curious, is there something that you're most proud of creating, and how did it come about?
In terms of the band stuff, it would for sure be the Sofa video, I think.
(11:26):
Just because it was like, yeah, the ultimate, like Alex vision for something, I think.
Like we, we didn't know… Sam and I went into that video shoot not knowing anything about it, and we kinda just we went up to Auckland for a few days, and as far as we knew, like we were gonna make a music video.
But then we had to do all these crazy things that Alex was like, "Nah, trust me, it'll look sick." And of course we know it'll turn out well.
(11:50):
Trust the process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But so we ended up like, like Alex climbed inside a giant weather balloon with a guitar somehow, and then popped out of that in time with the song.
And then what else we do?
For the Bored video, we were wrapped in like these crazy cellophane sheets.
Oh, that sucked.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was, it was like the hottest- That looked cool … thing I've ever done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(12:10):
So we just had to perform- They worked hard … like that for ages, and it was so sweaty and horrible, but it looks awesome on camera.
So all the work that went into making both the Bored video and the Sofa video, I think is probably like the proudest band thing that- … I have.
Yeah.
What about you guys?
Yeah, I mean that wa- yeah, that was pretty cool.
(12:31):
That's massive.
And yeah.
That was, yeah, a lot of work and yeah, the boys I guess like they say "Oh, we didn't know what was happening and we just showed up."
But it was like yeah, a few full days of like fully working really hard to get all the shots.
And we're like playing stuff like double speed and everything as well.
The classic music video stuff.
(12:51):
There you go.
I was just about to say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is like always torturous for drummers, 'cause they're trying to get like a good performance going, but they're doing it at an impossible speed.
Yeah.
So that was a lot of work.
For that I had to climb like a mountain.
A mountain.
And like- There's a lot of mountains that you seem to like to climb.
(13:13):
Yeah.
It was like, yeah, when we say "Yeah, we climb mountains," like literally.
Yeah.
And we did it like that was a real process, 'cause we did it twice.
The first time we did it we'd had all the permission and everything to shoot on the mountain that we were on and everything, but we didn't realize that there was like a tower there that was making the drone drop out of the sky.
(13:36):
So yeah, the filming was kinda difficult, so we had to go back to Queenstown, which is not where we live and film again and climb up.
And we were literally like climbing like hands and yeah, hands and feet like up a mountain.
And yeah, I had platform shoes on and had to not fall off the edge.
(13:57):
Yeah.
So that was a pretty rewarding thing to have gotten done I think.
Yeah.
Probably didn't feel super rewarding in the moment, but yeah.
They do say this about the degree of-
fulfillment and proud and achievement.
And they talk about the line of where you start something and it all seems impossible and too big, and there's this peak sort of halfway, three-quarters of the way where you're, like, fully in it doing the hard trenches of the, whatever the exercise is, and then it almost dips after.
(14:36):
So it's like perhaps that is in this sort of journey where the video's released or the song's released.
It's like it's really nice to get the accolades and, people listening to it, but almost when you're in the doing is where you can be like, "Yeah, we did this. Holy shit. What the hell?"
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which it sounds like from what I'm sensing, even if you can't articulate to, articulate it to the listeners of just how intense that time was- Yeah … it seems to me- … that it's the reward of something quite challenging to put together over three days.
(15:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was pretty hectic.
It was like, it's a mountain that's typically snowy as well, and we were … It was, like, just off winter, so it was I jumped in the lake at the bottom as well for some shots, and it was ice water.
It was the water that's just come off the ice.
There was no reason for it to be shot in winter except for- Oh
that we needed it shot.
(15:30):
And you can't see that it's cold, but it was, yeah, it was freezing.
But yeah, and it is nice I think in those moments as well probably not on that shoot day, 'cause these guys actually weren't there, and it's really weird that they weren't up the mountain.
But, In spirit
but they were there in spirit, 'cause I feel like they were there.
But yeah, on the bigger days when ev- everyone and all of the people who are helping to create, a video are there you get to enjoy it together- … which is nice.
(15:59):
How about you, Sam?
Yeah, it was like Jack was saying we kinda didn't know what we were getting into.
We knew it was gonna be a sweet video, and we were really looking forward to making video for the two songs, 'cause we love those songs.
But I remember kinda going out of my way to like not find out too much about the storyboard, 'cause I was just like, "Nah, you know what? I'm just gonna see what Alex is throwing us into. And then, we, we'd do one set, and I was like, "Oh, that, this is a cool setup.
(16:21):
I wonder what, how that's gonna work." And then we'd be like literally building the next set.
She had it like half built, and then we'd be like, "All right, everybody grab a hammer," and, we'd put up the next set.
And it's like, "What is this?" It's oh, there's all this weird wallpaper now.
And then it was like, "Oh we'll find out at the end of the video," so I was kinda like, "You know what?
I'm gonna just keep in the dark a little bit about this one," 'cause, yeah, we know we're in good hands, and we just wanna see. We're just… It's exciting that way, just to have that first watch like everyone else does and see "Oh, that's what we were doing.
(16:50):
I get it now." So I had a really cool first watch of the videos where I got to be like, an audience member, blown away to see it all come together.
So that was, yeah, quite special.
I can't remember what the question was.
Yeah.
The question was about something that you're most proud of creating.
Oh, yeah.
So proud of all that.
(17:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do think there's something really wholesome about- And it seems like you both have that notion of almost wanting that wanderlust to that childlike ability to not have too much information, so you are having the same input, like you said, like everybody else.
(17:32):
Which is a very special and very lovely that Alex allows you to - … do that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is kinda cool.
You, yeah, I guess on the video you're mainly focusing on the performance and- Yeah … getting that right, which is kinda nice.
Yeah.
(17:52):
I think.
Yeah.
But it's also cool to be on set and kinda see the vision come together because, we had no idea what we were doing.
You just had the idea.
So it was like, "Okay, stand here, and we're gonna wrap you all in ropes" And then you see off the side of the set the kinda monitor screen of how it's gonna look, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, that's what we're going for." Yeah.
That's gonna look sweet.
So yeah.
Yeah.
(18:12):
Nice.
I think, yeah, a thing that I'm proud of recently actually was we played a show in our hometown, and it was just packed with kids who were just jumping around, all ages show, and I I climbed onto a barrier, and I was just tired, and I just held… I think I just held the mic out 'cause I was just catching my balance.
(18:34):
And then a whole bunch of kids screamed the lyrics back, and I was like, "Whoa, whoa." And then I just look back onto the stage, and there was, like, my buddies cheesing on stage.
Cheese.
And it's just It's just, yeah, I don't know.
It's just lovely to get to perform with the lads.
Also the support of that crowd was pretty crazy 'cause Alex will go off through the crowd with her mic or whatever, and then they instantly start coiling the cable so that she can get through the crowd.
(18:58):
So it's like- Yeah … oh, everybody's part of it now, yeah.
It's real cool.
Yeah.
Community.
Yeah, it was weird.
Yeah.
People have learnt that I do that in that song, and the, yeah, the crowd just parted, and people were, like, grabbing the cable, and it was… Yeah, it was pretty sweet.
Love that.
See, that's what we want from community.
They're watching.
Yeah.
They're listening.
(19:19):
On the flip side of things that you're proud of,
and my next question's more about what's challenged your creativity.
So it might not be something that's happened in this ensemble, but it might be for you individually.
This is a probably a real kind of surface level one is like a thing that we've turned into a positive of like being in separate places initially started off, I think, quite hard.
(19:44):
But we went through the process of figuring it out, and now it seems really easy of like just, yeah, Sam… 'Cause yeah.
What was hard about it?
I think it, yeah, not having my buddy Sam around.
And like I, so I used to live with Sam, and we'd eat breakfast at 2:00 AM.
We'd go and just have like cornflakes at 2:00 in the morning.
(20:07):
And yeah.
So I think, Yeah, it was just a thing of trying to, surround myself with more creative people and things to fill the hole that Sam left in my life.
Yeah, nah.
But I think we've … I think we've turned it into a positive, which has been good, of just like working out how to be productive, and also just how to hang out even when he's away, where we watch movies and stuff quite regularly together with, yeah, chats going and stuff.
(20:36):
For me, I write songs in the middle of the night.
But when you live with other people that's not a super popular thing to do always.
So you gotta work through those things and find space where you can make noise and not worry about other people, and all of those things.
And then obvious- like I, 'cause I work on music videos and things as well, like for other bands, so I'll be doing like crazy hours on shoots and things.
(21:04):
And then so you've just gotta make sure that you've got time to eat and do all of the things that you need to do so that you're like healthy for when you play shows and things, as well as making sure that you're like still able to write the music that you want to write because you've got the right space and time and, yeah, mindset, for doing that.
(21:27):
I think that's, yeah.
How do you juggle those things?
Is there- Have you ever had a time where that juggle has been too much?
Yeah, I think I think I know when it's probably about too much when I go home and my mom's like, "Ugh." And just starts like- Sorry, say that again … "Ugh." And then starts- She just freaked out by the sight of you.
(21:50):
Yeah, it's when she starts like cutting up fruit- Yeah.
… and like passing it to me.
That's what mom's do.
Yeah.
My mom does that, yeah.
Yeah.
I think- Things just appear?
Yeah.
You- My mom does that too … just like fruit appears around you, and then, yeah.
Protein.
And and moisturizer and like vitamins and things- Yeah
are just like being tossed at your face.
You're not looking healthy.
(22:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, you're not looking your best.
But yeah, that's probably when I know that yeah, I've been through a stressful patch.
But I think it is juggling is probably the best word for it because when you're doing these, like short projects and things, like music videos and, like TV shows and things that's never gonna be something where you can be like, "From these hours on this day, every day of the week I do this, and then I do this."
(22:38):
th- It does come day by day and week by week, and you've just got to try and make sure that you're looking after yourself, I think.
Yeah.
I think that's a thing that I've realized recently is that sleep is actually quite good for you.
So like I'm like as long as I'm doing it s- at some point…
And I, yeah, I have a bone to pick with the universe, and that is that I think that people should be allowed to be awake at nighttime and asleep in, a little bit into the day.
(23:05):
And I think that should be okay.
'Cause I think I definitely just naturally drift into that kind of thing of like feeling really awake quite late at night, and then I'm like, "I'm getting my best work done."
But also the world really does seem to frown upon you being in bed when the sun's out.
I'm here to petition for equality for, Circadian rhythms … yeah, so my creative challenge is I in Auckland I used to work for this, I used to work a job that was like in a creative industry.
(23:38):
And I thought that was gonna be a, like a dream job because I get to be creative all day, and I get paid for it.
But I actually found it really difficult because you finish one project or y- you know, you're on the clock and it's it's…
It wasn't like a binary job of like you do the work or you don't do it, like stacking a warehouse or something, shelves in a warehouse.
It was how creative can you be today?
(24:00):
And I found that really hard, like mentally, quite exhausting.
Going home each day just being like, "Was I creative enough today?"
And then I had to do it again tomorrow and almost have to like one-up myself.
I don't know if that pressure was put on at the j- I think it was more self-pressure, like I put that on myself, but I definitely notice it really like- exhausted me.
(24:21):
And I stopped doing music for a year or two while I was working there, and it was, like, a really weird time, 'cause that was…
i've done music my whole life, so it was like it's almost like I had too much creative stuff going on.
And I think if I'm doing music I almost need… If I've got a day job going on, that almost needs to be m- maybe a mindless thing, so then I can be creative, change gear and be like, "Now I can be creative and do music and stuff."
(24:44):
'Cause I found it w- it was an in- incredible company.
I absolutely adored everyone else that worked there, 'cause they were just amazing, and I wanted to be better for them, but it was just so hard to… when you're being paid to, it was like it's a different kind of creativity, whereas with music, it's like, the pay's a bonus, it'd be nice to get paid, and sometimes it happens, but quite often it doesn't.
(25:04):
But that's okay, because the reward is something else.
Like looking out and seeing people just grinning at you while you're playing drums or something, my- No, it's, it's such a valid point to make.
Yeah.
I- It- … have so much to say about this.
But- Yeah w- we, I feel like we think working a creative job is the goal.
Yeah.
But for me, I think f- I think it is for some people, but how my brain works, I actually found it really challenging.
(25:26):
Yeah.
Being creative every single day was, like…
Or being expected to be creative every single day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like you've worked your way into what's quite good now though, like of- Yeah … where you're working on music all day, but it's s- still something that i- isn't, like, sucking out, like… There's not expectant people waiting f- for you to- Yeah.
(25:52):
Yeah.
I think that- I guess, yeah, it's not It's more of a formulaic thing where you can- Yeah, I've gotten better, better at it.
But yeah, there was definitely a time where I learnt, yeah, the hard way, trying to figure out yeah, how to juggle the whole cr- creativity as a job, is the whole concept.
I think when you start a creative life, it can seem that there is particular pathways and-
(26:17):
I'm sure you, from what we're speaking about, you're the same as me.
It's like everyone's path's a little different.
The strings in your bow and how you get that to work.
We've had some guests on the podcast where they've spoken about, it's like going back to their why of what, what does a, not just a creative life look like, but what does a life look like that I wanna lead?
(26:38):
And does that mean that you get to spend time in the garden and be able to pick things up and put things down creatively, or play with your niece and your nephew, or whatever that looks like.
And I think, yeah, you've just articulated a way in which you've gone, cool, so this particular scenario of creative life didn't work for you.
(26:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you find it challenging to come to that realization?
Or was it more of a burnout stage of like- Yeah … losing so much creativity that you were like, "Ah"?
Yeah, good question.
I think it was, I think it, I think I woke up one- well, I say it as an analogy waking up one day, but it probably happened over a few weeks.
(27:22):
But I think I just realized I haven't played a show in a year, and that that isn't me.
I n- I have to play shows, that's just who I am.
That's what I've wanted to do since I was a kid.
So it's wait, what am I doing?
And so I left this really amazing well-paying, stable job in a creative industry to then, go do music and throw all my money away to be in a band and learn, important lessons.
(27:47):
But now we're out the other side of it now, and I'm playing with these guys more and having, playing heaps of fun shows.
So it was and I'm not making much money from music, it's enough to get by.
But what I'm say- I keep talking about money.
What I'm saying is, because this is a big pressure we have in society about doing something you love as a job, and I think more recently I've found y- yeah, everything's evened out a bit.
(28:09):
There's a few things that there's a reason that, for that, a few different things, but I think a, a big part of it is just finding my place in music and being creative and just what I can bring to people in music, rather than… There's all this pressure of being the best at it.
But I guess I was raised was, like, being, like, your best at it.
Do your best.
It doesn't have to be the best.
(28:29):
And so I'm just trying to like… Yeah, it sounds a bit cheesy- Yeah … but I'm that's what I… Because I teach- Yeah … a lot of drums as well.
Balance, yeah.
And the harsh reality is you're always gonna, you're probably always gonna find someone better than you at something.
'Cause there's a lot of people out there, and people are just good at stuff now, but that's okay.
'Cause no one's gonna be, like, better than you at it, better at sounding like you on the drums or something.
(28:53):
So I'm always telling the kids or, my students "We've just got to figure out what your voice is on the instrument or your voice is in the music world and just, "'cause there's gonna, you'll find an audience for that, people are gonna love to hear you playing the drums, so we've just got to try and figure out, what that is or what that sounds like." Yeah.
Said.
Thanks.
(29:13):
Yeah, actually carrying on from what Sam said, it's not as intense as leaving your job for music and all that.
For Sam, intense.
Yeah.
Yeah, 'cause that's a pretty big thing, man.
But so around the time that I met Sam I was, like, kinda just leaving high school, and going through that whole thing of do I go and study music?
'Cause I was kinda like the music guy in high school and just doing that for every class, basically.
(29:36):
And yeah, a similar thing in some ways, but you get all this pressure around "Ah you're obviously gonna go and study music and do a degree in it", and all of that.
And you have all these people telling you that.
And so I went and studied music.
And then halfway through the year was like, "Actually I feel like I'm not getting a lot out of this, and this maybe isn't what I wanna do."
And for me at least, that was like, that's the point that I can remember in my entire life where I was like, "Oh, I don't know where I'm headed with stuff." And luckily, I'd met Sam around that time, and had these kind of conversations with him about that sort of stuff.
(30:11):
And ended up joining a bunch of bands with him.
And so on my uni breaks, I was going back to Nelson.
'Cause I was studying in Wellington, I'd fly back to Nelson for the holidays, and we'd go out and play a bunch of shows and tour and do all these things.
And then realized just through talking to Sam, who'd already had quite a bit of experience with doing that stuff and been through all this sort of stuff before that I was actually learning quite a bit more just doing it in real life compared to, being in a classroom with some dude who's 60 talking about how he was touring when he was, like, 20 or whatever.
(30:42):
So yeah, I'd- I made that decision to not continue studying music and just join Paper City and some other groups and stuff, and just go out there and do it.
And then found my feet in the industry a little bit by doing that.
So I think also, just trusting your instincts rather than trying to listen to I don't know, people- Hired people.
(31:04):
Yeah.
People who are like, "This is what you should be doing", yeah.
And then trying it, and you're like, "Actually, no, this isn't what I should be doing." Yeah … if that makes sense.
100%. Yeah.
And I think it really encapsulates the fact that when we are struggling with something, that one of the best things that we can do is talk to our community and talk to our peers.
(31:25):
And chances are, like you just said, certain people have either heard of that or have felt that themselves or, can give some guidance, some advice.
Yeah, I think yeah, it was probably 'cause Sam had just been through the things that you were starting to go through at that time.
Yeah, he'd probably see that a little more, so yeah.
It's probably perfect, which way better than like a university tutor who hasn't played a show in years.
(31:49):
Yeah, I had interesting thing with the study thing because I also like, when I was at high school Mike Chun from Split Enz was like giving me a bit of advice.
And I was kinda like, I kinda did the same thing of oh, I have to study music I guess, 'cause that's like what I want to do.
And he just said, "No, just study something that makes you interesting as a person." Oh.
(32:11):
And I think like that is, it's probably a really Split Enz way to look at that just in terms of how they think about art as a band.
But yeah, I think that was like, 'cause I just went to film school for a year- Jas … instead.
But yeah.
It, yeah, I think I got way more out of that for music than I did out of any music studies that I've ever done.
(32:35):
So yeah, that was huge advice.
Thanks, Mike.
A lot can be said for-
You can be an amazing musician, but if you haven't lived a life or experienced things, w- what exactly…
we encapsulate so much of the human experience in what we create.
Yeah.
And it's pretty difficult to be able to communicate to that people if you haven't actually had a chance to do anything.
(33:00):
Yeah.
So living a life is also- Yeah, like- … part of feeding that creativity, like- Yeah, you gotta write songs about something.
Yeah.
Have it- And if you don't have, you don't have something, then you're writing about- Nothing … not much, yeah.
And you can hear that in songs, eh, where it's like, "Oh, this person maybe hasn't done much. It's a bit boring" Or maybe it's not connecting with you.
It might be connecting with someone else, but yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(33:21):
Yeah, no, 'cause film school i- it teaches you storytelling, and I think honestly that probably connects, like… Music schools are trying to teach you how to play well or play properly or, play by the book rather than- Yeah … yeah, actually- What's the world- Yeah
that you're trying to create?
Yeah.
What's the art you're trying to make?
And yeah, so I think, yeah, probably other art forms actually have way more to teach us about our own than we think, for sure.
(33:49):
I think probably it's important to say as well we're not anti-music schools.
Yeah.
That- Hey, I finished my diploma- Yeah
at music school, yeah.
But I think what we're trying to say really if somebody out there was in the same kinda situation, is that's not the only option to get into the creative industry, whether that's film- Yeah … or music or whatever.
You can just learn stuff and meet people and go out there and do it, yeah.
(34:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You definitely need to, what is it?
You have to learn the rules before you can break them or- Yeah … yeah.
I would say that- So you gotta learn how to play well first, but- If I can quick yarn about… Yeah Alex and I… I studied filmmaking as well at, at a different spot to Alex, but s- similar kinda thing, and it teaches you how to connect with an audience, or how to convey emotion or something, which is huge part of music, yeah, and it kinda goes hand in… filmmaking goes hand in hand with a lot of, music making, so it's a good little side, Cyclical Yeah.
(34:36):
Yeah Little parallel thing that just runs along.
Yeah, so there's a lot of little crossovers there.
Yeah, and you meet all the interesting weirdos as well- Yeah
at film school, which is, yeah.
Creative type, yeah.
Just like meeting theater people.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Don't even start it.
But that is a great segue into one of my questions, which if someone wanted to develop their creative process and do what you do, which is, a- again, I'm getting a sense that it is putting yourself in other c- circumstances and learning about film and storytelling.
(35:13):
But apart from doing tertiary studies, which it seems that you've all dabbled in, is there other resources, short courses, books, things if someone wanted to do what you do that you would recommend?
Yeah, I think honestly 'cause we're probably not the most, like, social human beings.
But I do think there is something to actually talking to the other creative people in your communities, and that's I think, yeah, if I hadn't been able to tour with Sam's band when I was a kid, and be around those kind of creatives, I think, yeah, there's like a whole lot of development for me that wouldn't have happened.
(35:57):
But that just comes from putting yourself in those- Rooms … yeah, putting yourself in those rooms.
And yeah, I think there's often a lot of people who would be willing to work with you and stuff that you wouldn't have thought.
It's like- I don't, I often write with anyone else, but I would say it probably is a really great thing to do, and just to put yourself out there.
(36:22):
It's really scary, but go and co-write with some people.
And I think like it's the thing of the people around you are actually like your biggest assets and yeah I reckon you'd probably get way more out of like the other human beings who are all trying to do a similar thing than from books.
I have dyslexia though, so-
(36:43):
The book allergy is real.
Oh, Jack reads.
Jack reads.
Jack reads.
He reads.
Yeah.
So I, yeah, I'm interested to hear what you would think.
Okay.
Yeah.
To, to be fair, I have read a few books on like- And podcasts and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Playing guitar and like production and that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Literature.
But I w- I would still agree.
I've definitely learnt, like I was saying, like I learnt a lot more from knowing Sam and Alex than I learnt from studying music at university.
(37:09):
So yeah, definitely agree with that.
But yeah, you can still learn from books.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna turn away books.
If you- I feel like there's a lot of disclaimers.
Yeah.
We're not s- books are bad.
Yeah.
Love a good book.
Books are bad and books are good.
You can learn from- Yeah.
And like audiobooks are there as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I did take an online course just teaching how to do music production when I was in high school.
(37:33):
Because I'm sure it's changed a bit since I was in school now, but around that time you could record at home, but they weren't necessarily teaching that stuff in school.
So just going and buying a… I think it was like 20 or $30 and just taught you an introduction to professional recording software.
That was probably the best money I've spent, because now I work in the creative industry and do all that stuff all the time.
(37:54):
So you can for sure do that kind of stuff.
But then also yeah, hanging out with people who know more than you.
So again, like- Yeah … Sam and Alex for me, being in the industry longer than me, so they were really good to learn from trying to break into the mus- industry, and had done stuff before, I think you're constantly learning from each other as well.
It's like a constant thing.
(38:14):
And yeah.
I think also yeah, YouTube, there's like- Oh, yeah … so much stuff now that yeah, you can kinda learn to do anything.
But so there's sort of- there's almost no excuses.
Except for-
being able to push yourself is probably the… Yeah.
And I think also there's so many, yeah I feel for the people who are from smaller towns in the world- … like we are, 'cause there's o- obviously not as many resources, but there are quite a lot of youth spaces and things now that are- You were gonna steal my yarn
(38:46):
open.
Oh we have the same yarn.
Yeah, great minds think alike.
Yeah.
But I think it's, yeah, just getting involved with those sort of, yeah, those spaces where there's a whole lot of creative people working and trying to get amongst it.
What was your yarn?
Yeah.
Reiterating what Alex said.
We got bloody book nerd over here- Yeah.
(39:06):
… and then we got dyslexia- Yeah … and then me probably dyslexic somehow as well.
I think, yeah, and coming from a small town myself, this is more for… no, this is for anyone, I think a really important resource is your community.
Like what Alex said.
Yeah Investing in your community, going out to the weird indie shows.
Yeah … or going out to I don't even know what that genre is.
Go to it.
Find out.
(39:27):
You know what I mean?
Oh, I don't like it.
That's cool.
You went and found out.
Go to the next one anyway, just double check, or put on a show in your parents' garage or something, or just find the crappy sounding room and just chuck an instrument down and get your friends there, and just invest and build up that scene.
That's what we've been doing, my friends and I, in, in Nelson.
We've got this, little quiet seaside village, and we're trying to make this little music scene happen, and it's, there's cool stuff taking roots there now because there's been a few key figures there just on the grind every weekend, just "Let's just put this show…"
(39:58):
Just brute forcing it, and then all of a sudden, Yeah, it just starts growing … people just start coming out.
Yeah.
And it's like- Yeah … and you just be nice to be around, and it's "Oh, I wanna go be around the nice people this Friday night." And then it happens to be around a place of music, and then all of a sudden they're actually fans of music, and then they go the next time and they bring their friends.
So what I'm saying is an important resource, if you don't have access to all the snazzy books or whatever, is your community.
(40:25):
Yeah.
Make your own music community.
Yeah.
Said.
Yeah.
Nice.
Said.
Yeah.
Now,
interesting questions around the table.
Is there an object or thing, Jack, that you can't live without when you're creating?
Sam Edmonds.
(40:45):
Sam, man of the hour.
Overwhelming.
I feel like a really obvious answer is just whatever inspires you to be creative, so me being, like, a musician, probably a guitar.
You don't have any lucky socks, or- Ah, not lucky socks.
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe coffee is inspiring for me.
It motivates me.
How about you, Alex?
I, yeah, I have the brute force thing of songwriting, where you just put a blank A4 piece of paper in front of you and go, "There's gonna be a song on here," Is that how you do it?
(41:17):
in moments.
Yeah.
Mainly.
Sometimes I just wake up in the middle of the night and just have to write a song, but yeah, I think that's… Sometimes you put out two pieces of paper, and you go, "There's gonna be two songs here- Whoa … in moments." Yeah.
Can I just say, I love that I facilitated you learning about the band.
Yeah.
Yeah, these are like mysterious things.
How about you, Sam?
(41:38):
Have you got an object or thing?
Oh, I do, but it's a bit che- No, hear it.
Come on.
It's not, it's kind of- What is it?
It's kinda break- what is it?
It's breaking the rules again.
Yeah.
Okay, so I'll just- Breaking rules?
Not really.
It's not like an object.
It's like a, I'm getting all meta- spiritual.
No, I love it.
Go.
Okay, I'll just, I'll make it quick.
So I think- No … I'm a big believer in, Good what is it?
Good things t- take time, great things happen all at once.
(41:58):
You can work on something for ages and it, it might, you might make a good thing, which is good, but I think the most exceptional stuff and the real special stuff, just like lightning in a bottle, just like zaps you and it's like, bam, what was that?
I don't know.
It was a moment in time.
And people can, you can hear that in music, or you can see that in art or whatever.
Momentum is my- useful tool.
(42:18):
Yeah.
Good.
Get that momentum and then just dr- go for it.
Yeah.
And then when it's gone, try get it back, but not too hard.
And just wait for that momentum again, maybe.
I don't know.
Different strokes for different folks, but try something like that.
That usually works for me.
That's good.
Yeah, that's good.
Now, if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold- what would it be?
(42:39):
One piece of gold to someone wanting to do music?
Yeah, or be creative or- Or be creative … you- Yeah
The piece of advice, I think s- you touched on that earlier, but I think there's a thing where people feel this like massive pressure to try and th- look at a musician and go, "I wanna be like that, and I need to try and be better than that person there."
(43:02):
But I think you really do just need to be the best you can be, and do what interests you, and do what you like doing.
'Cause I think it's also, it's quite infectious when you see someone doing something that they love to do, regardless of what kind of like medium it's in it's just, it's, it, it's- It's inspiring
(43:24):
yeah, it's inspiring and you want to watch it.
And that's why like when people make documentaries about all sorts of weird niche things that people love, it's y- you can't help but watch 'cause it's yeah, like people like to watch people do the things that they love to do.
And like if it truly comes from you, I think yeah, other people will feel that.
(43:45):
When we watch like Lorde come up through New Zealand like the way she is on stage, some people were kinda like, "Oh, she's, doing her freaky thing," but like that's like her going all out live doing what she does, and it's and people love it, and she tours the world doing that 'cause she's the best version of herself.
So just do what you love doing and yeah I think that's huge.
(44:11):
Yeah, that's really good.
Yeah, which I think is like it carries across to any form of art as well.
Sure, yeah.
I would just like to add on to that, add on or have your own- it's sort of- … little quote … a bit of both, like just try and be inspired by not one thing, like- Yeah … rather than being like, "Yeah, I wanna sound like Green Day, and that's all I wanna do." 'Cause that was me for ages as a kid when I was learning guitar.
(44:35):
I just wanna sound like this one band that I really like, but- And he had the hair, and it was great.
It was great.
Yeah.
At like primary school.
At primary school he had the Green Day hair.
His parents let him dye his hair black.
Yeah.
It was cool.
I dyed my hair black- Yeah … 'cause I wanted to look like Billie Joe Armstrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, getting older, like I find I'm influenced by like films and a lot of other things.
(44:57):
And when I'm… As Sam was saying earlier, I listen to a lot of podcasts and things and it's usually with y- musicians sometimes, but then also like directors, and actors, and lots of other people.
And I think just like trying to expose yourself to a lot of different forms of media and like types of music you might not have checked out and stuff is really important because if you're like just listening to rock music or something, you can only be inspired by so much, so just checking out anything that you find inspiring, and not thinking "Oh, this isn't music.
(45:27):
Like, why am I interested in that?" And kinda second-guessing it.
Just follow what you are feeling passionate about and interested in, 'cause I find like that in terms like kinda fuels my creat- creativity as a musician in some ways.
So that's important for me at least.
Yeah.
Said.
Yeah, that's… Yeah.
Yeah.
That's Yeah.
That's so true.
Man, that's so good.
(45:49):
Yeah, 'cause like- Sam, what are you… What is your thoughts of nuggets of gold piece of advice?
I'll probably end up repeating myself, but go to shows.
Support your local- Mate … DIY music scene.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll get on a rant or something, so I'll keep it at that.
Succinct.
(46:09):
Yeah.
Wow.
Succinct.
I'll kinda repeat myself anyway.
No, love it.
No, you're good.
No, this… Like I said, very conversational.
All good.
Yeah.
Now, before I close it off- I do have a question, and it, you can have a collective answer or it could be individual.
But if you could, and I don't wanna say throw someone under the bus, but throw them more into the Through The Creative Door bus- Okay
(46:36):
and answer these questions , who would it be and why?
Ooh.
There's actually like a local band called Dempsey they're really cool.
They're a new band, and they're like a brother/sister duo, and the guitarist who's in it now is from New Zealand, and he's really cool.
And yeah, we… He was in a really good New Zealand band that disbanded a couple years ago, and we were… I think I was personally really worried.
(47:05):
I was like, 'cause I hadn't seen him in ages, and I was like, "Oh, no. Is he not doing music now?" And then I found out he's just living here now, and he's in this awesome band.
You should check them out.
They've got a song called Two Step that's out and it's really cool.
I will stalk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I reckon they're a good stalk.
In the most consensual way on social media as possible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
(47:25):
Nice.
. Coast Arcade, another Kiwi band, are on tour here at the moment I think as well.
I think they just finished.
Oh, they might have just finished, but if they're back you should talk to them.
Yeah, that's it.
Or I could come to New Zealand.
Yeah.
Yeah, true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Auckland actually has this amazing new venue that's all ages, and it was started by Joel Little and his wife, Jemma Little.
(47:48):
And so Joel's the producer who produced Lorde's first album, and he's done Taylor Swift and stuff, and he's basically investing back in the local community, and he started this amazing all ages venue, and it, it's just perfect.
Exactly what the New Zealand music scene needs, and there's all of these cool bands that are coming out of there now because- … there's a space for them to go.
(48:11):
And parents feel safe letting their kids go to the shows there.
So yeah, you should come and play a show there, and also talk to all of the locals.
Oh, my God, that sounds amazing.
Yeah, and also Big Fan is they're putting on opportunities for a lot of kids in terms of learning how to play live and record and do all that kind of stuff, 'cause they've got music studios upstairs above the venue as well.
(48:32):
So you can, like- Yeah … you can go there and play a show, and then you c- can record a song up there too.
So they put on a lot of programs around we're gonna teach kids how to put on a live show and how to produce a song and all that kind of stuff.
So it's cool that there's a place in New Zealand that's doing that because we're such a small country, and I feel like we probably haven't had something like that for a long time.
Yeah.
So come and interview Joel Little.
(48:55):
Perfect.
It's, yeah.
Oh, my God, love it.
Thank you so much for coming on the poddy.
For those who have not heard of you guys, they need to get Paper City in your ear holes,
thank you.
Woo.
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