March 16, 2026 • 23 mins
Joe Laf is a singer-songwriter, producer, and session guitarist who believes in one simple rule: don’t overthink, just finish the work.
In this episode, Alexis talks with Joe about his journey through music, the reality of working behind the scenes as a session player, and what it takes to actually complete creative projects instead of getting stuck chasing perfection. From songwriting and production to the mindset that keeps him moving forward, Joe shares honest insights from years in the studio and on the guitar.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow on instagram; @ joelafmusic
This episode was recorded on Monday 2 March 2026 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
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Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Hello, my name is Alexis Nailer, and I am your host here at Through The Creative Door.
On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced.
May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge elders past and present.
(00:32):
On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way.
I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Oh my goodness, Jo.
Hello.
(00:52):
Hello.
Thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
So for our listeners, you are a very talented bear.
Thank you.
You are an amazing singer songwriter.
You are a, are you a self-taught producer or have you got a little bit from No, no.
(01:12):
I've had some good friends over the years show me a lot of stuff.
I've got people there to pick their brains and you know, even still to this day.
Amazing.
I just, beautiful.
Just know I'll call up something, just go, Hey, how do I do this?
What a friend's for, Hey, yeah, you were also a gun for hire.
Playing session.
(01:34):
Recording playing in bands.
Being a gum for hire on shredding the guitar.
And that's actually how we met.
It is.
It is.
Which we were, we were talking about before.
We can't exactly remember when it, when we saw when it was and what the gig was, but yes, we definitely shared the stage.
We did.
Yeah, we did.
I love this.
I love paths.
Always crossed.
(01:54):
Yeah.
So good.
So without further ado, I'm curious, Jo, what does a creative space mean to you?
Everything.
Anywhere can be a creative space.
You know, I can be sitting in my lounge room and pick up a guitar and write something, but something about, you know, just being in here, it just, you know, it gives you that mojo of just like, I mean, obviously as you can see, I've got a lot of toys everywhere.
(02:23):
I've got my guitars, I've got keyboards, I've got all little bits and pieces that I can just play with and do whatever, but I just, you know, it's just like
I can just sit in here and listen to music and just be happy.
It's just, just the way it's sort of decked out with all the toys and all the books and yeah.
Do you feel that when you come into this space that like drops you into that creative flow?
(02:50):
Oh yeah.
Or do you feel that it can inspire you in other areas?
I probably, look, I can get inspired.
Anywhere, you know, I can be listening to something in the car and then, and you know, an idea will just spark.
But definitely, I think, yeah, having this, you know, little studio set up, you know, really, you know, as soon as you come in here, it's just like, you know, almost you, it's just like that, it's like the work cap comes on.
(03:18):
You're just kinda like, I'm just gonna sit here and do, even if I end up with doing nothing for the day, you know, I've got.
Hundreds of recordings that no one will ever hear, because I've just sat here and just played with stuff, so Oh my goodness.
I love those days.
Yeah, I love those days.
So, and then some of those, you know, years later turn into songs, you know, I'll go back through the, all the files and go, oh, I had a good idea there.
(03:44):
You know, and, um, yeah.
So never delete anything.
No, never, never throw anything.
No.
Never.
Yep.
Never.
We shell things, we don't throw them out.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Do you think that being able to put something on the shelf and take it back, do you think that over time that's helped you develop your sound as well?
Like have you played around with things?
(04:06):
Definitely, a hundred percent.
The music I've been releasing the last couple years has been sort of, you know, a bit more sort of alternative rock industrial type, you know, just stuff that I love, like I, you know, I grew up on movies like The Crow.
Love those soundtrack.
You know, just like that was always the thing I sort of loved.
But before then, I wasn't writing anything like that.
(04:27):
I was just doing just folky, country pop rock sort of stuff.
Just 'cause I just wanted to be a writer.
I didn't wanna be an artist.
And then when I started doing stuff, I remember I was trying to write a song.
This was a few years ago, and it was just like, yep.
And then I took a year off from doing any writing or recording.
(04:52):
And the song, I'll play it you later, like if you hear what it was, it was like just a very almost gooey dolly type acoustic type sort of song.
A year later I had a re-listened to it and went and just flipped it and just made it like this rock industrial type, completely different, you know, it was the same lyrics, completely different melody, completely different music.
(05:15):
And I, that's when I just kind of went, you know what?
This is the direction I wanna go in.
So I'm, yeah, definitely.
I just released a song last week, which I wrote eight or nine years ago and just never released.
I released like an acoustic version of it years ago, and now finally, just last week, I actually sat down and produced it properly and released it.
So yeah's the beautiful thing of also watching the journey between creating the bare bones of a song.
(05:43):
Yep.
Yeah.
But then the singer songwriter hat Yeah.
Versus the producer hat.
Yeah.
Where it actually can go.
Any genre, any direction.
Yeah.
Really definitely.
Well, I mean, I kind of go from more of the producer stuff first.
Like a lot of this, a lot of my music now, the music will be completely done.
Like it'll even be almost mixed and I haven't written a single lyric to it.
(06:07):
And then I'll do that right at the end.
So I'm always kind of thinking production first now.
Wow.
Instead of actual.
Yeah.
I don't know the, I never used to do it like that, but for some reason now it just, now that it just works for me.
I hear, you know, I've got every, you know, once the music's done, I can hear it.
I'm like, and then I'll throw in the, you know, I've all, I mean, I've got pages and pages of the lyrics written down everywhere, so I've always got lyrics on hand, but once I do the music, I'm like, now I'm gonna fit the melody in.
(06:33):
Circling back to the studio being your creative space.
Yeah.
That actually makes more sense now.
Yeah, because it's like how you.
The process in which you create has changed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So unlike maybe once upon a time, yeah.
Sitting with a guitar in hand to start with and jotting things down, I'll start with that.
(06:54):
I'm just like, I'm just gonna put down a beat and then I'll grab the bass or grab a guitar, or play some keys and just build it from the ground up.
And I usually, as I said, will not write a single lyric or put in any melody until I've actually finished all the music first.
And then obviously I can change stuff once it's kind of done.
(07:14):
You know, if I start writing lyrics, I'm like, okay, that chorus needs to be longer or that, that doesn't really work there.
So amazing.
Yeah, it seems like it also, yeah, changing while you are learning.
It's like it gives you more opportunities to put different flavors on things 'cause you've come at it differently.
(07:37):
Oh definitely.
Yeah.
As the years have, yeah.
Progressed.
Yeah.
And I love that.
I love experimenting with different sounds and just, there's no rules now.
There's no thing of like, oh, well you've learnt the rules, now you can break them.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, I've gotta try to make it sound like a certain way.
Or I shouldn't put too much reverb on this.
It's like, nah, I'm doing what I want.
So.
(07:57):
This is an interesting segue, different questions from my standing questions.
Yep.
But does that mean that over time, this is a presumption, once upon a time you were writing from a more of a feeling space and now you are writing more from like a theory space 'cause you are writing it and.
(08:20):
Building the song from a producer.
I think once upon a time I was just, you know, just writing, you know, like the way, look, the stories and the lyrics and all that, they're still the same.
They still come.
Everything I write even now still comes from a real place, a real situation are real, something inside me.
(08:41):
But I think now, as I said, you know, sort of growing up in those type of movies and stuff like that, I try to, I almost sort of picture.
Those type of movies when I'm producing it.
Mm-hmm.
Of thinking like, you know, I'd love this.
I'm gonna make something that should be in a vampire movie.
And that's where why the music has to be done first for me.
(09:03):
Mm-hmm.
Because it's like, without that part of it, it's not gonna really sort of work.
And then as said, the words and that come after.
But all the, as I said, all the words do come from a, you know, real stories and yes, some.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's gotta come from somewhere.
Now I have many questions for you.
Go ahead.
(09:23):
So you have been part of all sorts of ensembles.
You've been doing all this amazing producing and learning all these skills.
You've released a bundle of music.
Yep.
But I'm curious, is there a piece of work or a body of work.
(09:44):
Or a project that you're most proud of being part of or creating?
Oh, I think, look, I think everything I'm doing now, like the music, I love it and I'm proud of it.
I think probably years ago, as I said, when I was just kind of just writing stuff just to be a songwriter, you know, I did actually go do a couple of gigs singing that stuff and it just didn't, well, didn't feel like me, and now I'm actually.
(10:12):
I love what I'm doing and I'm proud of what I'm doing, you know?
Um, and I look where, whether people like it or not, it doesn't, you know, where I used to think really hard about that.
As said, now I just, I'll do what I want, you know?
Mm-hmm.
It's like I'm not following any rules.
I'm not trying to make something to be on commercial radio.
I'm just like, I just want to create exactly the sound I've got in my head and just, yeah.
(10:37):
Yeah.
Did you ever feel that there was a tension before to sort of like trying to bridge that divide of commercial appeal versus the integrity and artistry of what you actually, what your North Star was, um, what you wanted to create?
I think it was more, as I said, I never wanted to be an artist.
(11:01):
I was always happy.
What, being in the back?
Yeah, I just, I was like always happy, you know, being in the background, playing guitar for other people.
Then when I was writing, the whole idea was like, you know, I want, I wanna learn how to write and produce so I could do it for other people, which I still want to do Now.
That's still, you know, I've done it for a couple of people, but, um, and it was, and so as I said, I was releasing everything from folk to country to.
(11:31):
Rock pop to whatever, you know?
And I remember people, you know, used to kind of say to me like, oh look, you know, the song's really good, but where's the job we're looking?
We are looking at, you know, and it was actually true.
It was like, you know, like it really wasn't me.
Like what I'm doing now is a hundred percent me.
And I think that's the difference, which, you know, there's plenty of singer songwriters and artists out there that write, yeah.
(11:59):
Heaps of genres that they would Yeah.
That's not their aesthetic that they release under.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's plenty.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's uh, not an uncommon thing to see.
Yeah.
It's very real.
Very real.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Oh, so much to be proud of.
Oh yeah.
It's just, you know, I mean, you gotta love what, you gotta love it.
That's her thing.
And that was, that was the main thing.
(12:19):
It was just kind of like, I want to love everything I'm doing.
Mm. Yeah.
Flip side of things that you're proud of.
Yeah.
Is there something or a time or an experience that's challenged your creativity?
Uh, I've definitely gone through stages where I just can't write or I can't, I don't feel creative at all.
(12:43):
As in more of like a creative block, um, or like there's been things going on.
Combination of, you know, things going on.
Obviously I work as a full-time musician as well, so.
Sometimes it's just like, especially during the busy season, I get home, the last thing I want to do is pick up a guitar or do anything and, but I'll still force myself to come down here and try to do something, but then I find it's just, yeah, it's, it's not working.
(13:11):
But, um, but you know, it, it's funny, it's like, you know, you could go through a breakup or something like that, which obviously that is never great, and that hurts and it takes a while for those feelings.
And that story to come out.
But once it does, it's like you end up with a song, you know, it's like you really do, you know, just, you just gotta write everything down and how you feeling at the time.
(13:35):
And then even if it comes six months later, you know, I mean, I've written songs now that from things that have happened 10 years ago, so there's something nice about the being able to reflect.
Yeah.
And it's a different story than what it would be if you would've written it.
Yeah.
10. Yeah, I think you get a different point of view from when it sort of happens and yeah.
(14:01):
So
when we think about writer's block, you were saying that you make yourself come and designate time to still try and Yeah, and create as I was, as I was saying before with them, I can still sit here and do the music.
(14:24):
So, as I said, I've got so many full songs recorded that I've got no lyrics on 'em.
So when you think about Writer's Block, that's more from a more singer songwriter space.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And so you are able to essentially still do music Yeah.
But just find, pivot.
(14:45):
Yeah.
A little bit and still be like, okay, well I might do.
A drum track, a fine groove.
Yeah.
Like I might be Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, I find, I find, I'm usually even with Riders Block, I find I can still come do the music side of it and you know, and then I might leave that alone for months and then come back when I'm feel, you know, sort of feeling better and pull up the song and go, oh cool, I'm gonna write some lyrics.
(15:12):
Yeah.
But like, actually, I mean, probably one song.
I sort of speaking, I'm proud of things like, um, which is actually probably my most played song.
It was, I literally finished the music and I'd never done this before where I actually just turned on the microphone.
I had no lyrics, I had no melody idea.
(15:32):
I just hit record and I just sung into the mic and the first thing that came out is what I released and it's, I just, yeah, I don't know where it came from and it just, yeah, it's.
My, probably my most played song.
So see, I love it when you have those little jammies.
Yeah.
Where they just fall out of you.
Yep.
(15:52):
Aren't they special?
They're great.
They don't happen all the time, fortunately.
No, no.
It was just, as I said, I was so surprised when it came out and um, yeah, it just like, I was just like, where did this come from?
You know?
It was a pretty raunchy song as well, and I was just like, it was nice to just kind of just go, you know what, I'm just gonna, first thing that popped into my head, I don't know where this.
Thing is coming from inside of me, but it's obviously there.
(16:15):
So yeah.
Just let it flow through.
Yeah.
Let it flow through.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, in this beautiful studio of yours, I wanna assume that there's some really special objects in here, whether we not they're connected to creations, but my question is, is there an object or thing that you can't live without when you are creating.
(16:42):
An object or thing.
I mean, look, I love all of this.
Said like, I, I can't sit in an empty room and just like, I love, you know, said, I've got toys everywhere, I've got books, I've got all kinds of stuff.
But really it's these studio monitors interesting.
Like they just sound so amazing where I can just sit here and just listen to music on 'em.
(17:03):
And it's just,
and yeah, so when you're actually sort of just creating into it, like sitting here, I'm just like, I just love the sound.
Of them so much.
It just really, they definitely can't live with them.
For those listening, what kind of mons are they?
They are Adam Audio A 77 Xs.
(17:24):
Yeah, they look really Buffy.
They are people, little Bof.
Bof.
Yeah.
I love it.
They are, that's the most descriptive word for the monitors, but I definitely, yeah, they're definitely probably my favorite.
Yeah, if I had to lose everything in the studio, like I'd need them back.
(17:45):
Mm. Yeah.
Interesting.
Now, if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be?
Don't overthink.
Don't try to fit any mold.
Just do it and think about it later, and always finish.
You know, even if it's a song.
That you'll never release, finish it.
(18:06):
There's been a lot of times where, you know, I've finished a song gone.
I don't really like that in the end of it, but I've finished it and then months later it'll come to me.
Time for me writing another song going, oh wait a second.
There's that part from that song from before and whatever, and then two songs become one.
(18:27):
Oh, I'm such an advocate for this.
Yeah.
Recycle.
Yep.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
As I said before, shoulder, never throw anything shoulder, but a lot can be said for the process of finishing something.
Yep.
Um, that is, that is definitely the big, probably the one big advice.
Finish everything.
Don't, even if you're not fi you know, like, I mean obviously there's some suffer you just not feeling.
(18:50):
You're just like, yeah.
But always attempt to just get it done.
Even write, you know, even writing a song, even if it's just, just sitting there with an acoustic guitar writing.
Whatever, try to finish it.
Try instead of writing a verse here, you know, one night.
It's like that.
Just write an entire song.
Just do it.
Yeah.
(19:11):
A lot can be said for the practice.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, and also just sometimes giving yourself that time limit when you have the never ending time.
Yeah.
You sometimes don't have the rush to.
Finish or Yeah.
Or, yeah, sometimes time.
Yeah.
Having a time limit is helpful.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Even if you're not gonna use them, you might use 'em later.
(19:34):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yep.
Now, I'm curious, you mentioned before that.
Your friends and colleagues and people that you know have been an amazing resource.
Yeah.
To tap into their brain and find out producer things.
Yep.
(19:54):
But if someone wanted to develop their creative process and do what you do, whether that be as a guitarist or as a producer Yeah.
As a songwriter, is there any resources that you would recommend?
Probably just listen to a lot of music like that is really.
I know it's an obvious one, but like listen to stuff you wouldn't listen to.
(20:19):
Normally I could pull up a playlist of songs that I, I reference when I'm, you know, even if I'm writing something completely heavy rock alternative, you know, I'll pull up a complete pop song and just, you know, reference little things and going, cool.
Yeah.
That is literally, I think the most important thing is just listening to.
(20:42):
Different music, listening to how things are put together, different sounds, the effects they use on the vocals.
Over the years of being a musician for so long, I've played so many different styles of music, so I kind of, I know a lot of stuff and heard a lot of things and it's, it's funny that the songs that will just inspire you to create something completely different from what inspired you.
(21:07):
So yeah, that.
Overlap of genres.
Yeah.
Always makes me laugh.
'cause I always think about Pharrell talking to, oh goodness, I can't think of his name right now.
From Nirvana and talking about like drum fills.
Yeah.
And to Dave Rell.
(21:28):
Yes.
Yep.
That's right.
And that conversation of like, it's actually like a disco drumbeat or whatever he does.
Yeah.
You know, it's, but unless of course you hear it in context, you probably don't realize.
Yeah.
And it's a true representation of why it's important to listen to Yeah.
All genres.
Yeah.
And get that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can learn something from everything.
(21:49):
I love that.
Well said.
Thank you.
Now, if you could hear another creative come on this podcast Yeah.
And answer these questions, who would it be and why?
I'm gonna say good friend of mine, Mike.
Joey.
He's the lead singer from a band, iron Sky.
And actually all the guys in their band.
And, um, they're, you know, they're another local Melbourne band and they're absolutely incredible.
(22:14):
So, Mikey, he was always a drummer, you know, I played with in a couple of different bands.
And then one day he kind of just said, oh, you know, I've been writing some songs and I'd never really heard him sing before.
And he released.
These songs, and they were just absolutely incredible.
And I, I was like, instant fan of like, you know, still as these do tell, I'm like, I just like, it's one of my favorite songs is Yeah, yours.
(22:38):
And, um, but now he's got a, you know, with a whole bunch of other Melbourne musos that put a band together and that absolutely incredible stuff.
Everyone should check 'em out.
Yes.
Yeah.
Nice.
I love this.
All right, I will investigate.
Do it.
Oh my goodness, Jo, what a glorious chat.
It's so nice to see you.
Great to see you too.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me there.
(22:59):
Oh my goodness.
Thanks so much for coming through the Creative Door.
Hidden time.
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(23:30):
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We'll catch you on the next episode.
Bye.
Hello, my name is Alexis Nailer, and I am your host here at Through The Creative Door.
On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced.
May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge elders past and present.
(00:32):
On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way.
I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Oh my goodness, Jo.
Hello.
(00:52):
Hello.
Thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
So for our listeners, you are a very talented bear.
Thank you.
You are an amazing singer songwriter.
You are a, are you a self-taught producer or have you got a little bit from No, no.
(01:12):
I've had some good friends over the years show me a lot of stuff.
I've got people there to pick their brains and you know, even still to this day.
Amazing.
I just, beautiful.
Just know I'll call up something, just go, Hey, how do I do this?
What a friend's for, Hey, yeah, you were also a gun for hire.
Playing session.
(01:34):
Recording playing in bands.
Being a gum for hire on shredding the guitar.
And that's actually how we met.
It is.
It is.
Which we were, we were talking about before.
We can't exactly remember when it, when we saw when it was and what the gig was, but yes, we definitely shared the stage.
We did.
Yeah, we did.
I love this.
I love paths.
Always crossed.
(01:54):
Yeah.
So good.
So without further ado, I'm curious, Jo, what does a creative space mean to you?
Everything.
Anywhere can be a creative space.
You know, I can be sitting in my lounge room and pick up a guitar and write something, but something about, you know, just being in here, it just, you know, it gives you that mojo of just like, I mean, obviously as you can see, I've got a lot of toys everywhere.
(02:23):
I've got my guitars, I've got keyboards, I've got all little bits and pieces that I can just play with and do whatever, but I just, you know, it's just like
I can just sit in here and listen to music and just be happy.
It's just, just the way it's sort of decked out with all the toys and all the books and yeah.
Do you feel that when you come into this space that like drops you into that creative flow?
(02:50):
Oh yeah.
Or do you feel that it can inspire you in other areas?
I probably, look, I can get inspired.
Anywhere, you know, I can be listening to something in the car and then, and you know, an idea will just spark.
But definitely, I think, yeah, having this, you know, little studio set up, you know, really, you know, as soon as you come in here, it's just like, you know, almost you, it's just like that, it's like the work cap comes on.
(03:18):
You're just kinda like, I'm just gonna sit here and do, even if I end up with doing nothing for the day, you know, I've got.
Hundreds of recordings that no one will ever hear, because I've just sat here and just played with stuff, so Oh my goodness.
I love those days.
Yeah, I love those days.
So, and then some of those, you know, years later turn into songs, you know, I'll go back through the, all the files and go, oh, I had a good idea there.
(03:44):
You know, and, um, yeah.
So never delete anything.
No, never, never throw anything.
No.
Never.
Yep.
Never.
We shell things, we don't throw them out.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Do you think that being able to put something on the shelf and take it back, do you think that over time that's helped you develop your sound as well?
Like have you played around with things?
(04:06):
Definitely, a hundred percent.
The music I've been releasing the last couple years has been sort of, you know, a bit more sort of alternative rock industrial type, you know, just stuff that I love, like I, you know, I grew up on movies like The Crow.
Love those soundtrack.
You know, just like that was always the thing I sort of loved.
But before then, I wasn't writing anything like that.
(04:27):
I was just doing just folky, country pop rock sort of stuff.
Just 'cause I just wanted to be a writer.
I didn't wanna be an artist.
And then when I started doing stuff, I remember I was trying to write a song.
This was a few years ago, and it was just like, yep.
And then I took a year off from doing any writing or recording.
(04:52):
And the song, I'll play it you later, like if you hear what it was, it was like just a very almost gooey dolly type acoustic type sort of song.
A year later I had a re-listened to it and went and just flipped it and just made it like this rock industrial type, completely different, you know, it was the same lyrics, completely different melody, completely different music.
(05:15):
And I, that's when I just kind of went, you know what?
This is the direction I wanna go in.
So I'm, yeah, definitely.
I just released a song last week, which I wrote eight or nine years ago and just never released.
I released like an acoustic version of it years ago, and now finally, just last week, I actually sat down and produced it properly and released it.
So yeah's the beautiful thing of also watching the journey between creating the bare bones of a song.
(05:43):
Yep.
Yeah.
But then the singer songwriter hat Yeah.
Versus the producer hat.
Yeah.
Where it actually can go.
Any genre, any direction.
Yeah.
Really definitely.
Well, I mean, I kind of go from more of the producer stuff first.
Like a lot of this, a lot of my music now, the music will be completely done.
Like it'll even be almost mixed and I haven't written a single lyric to it.
(06:07):
And then I'll do that right at the end.
So I'm always kind of thinking production first now.
Wow.
Instead of actual.
Yeah.
I don't know the, I never used to do it like that, but for some reason now it just, now that it just works for me.
I hear, you know, I've got every, you know, once the music's done, I can hear it.
I'm like, and then I'll throw in the, you know, I've all, I mean, I've got pages and pages of the lyrics written down everywhere, so I've always got lyrics on hand, but once I do the music, I'm like, now I'm gonna fit the melody in.
(06:33):
Circling back to the studio being your creative space.
Yeah.
That actually makes more sense now.
Yeah, because it's like how you.
The process in which you create has changed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So unlike maybe once upon a time, yeah.
Sitting with a guitar in hand to start with and jotting things down, I'll start with that.
(06:54):
I'm just like, I'm just gonna put down a beat and then I'll grab the bass or grab a guitar, or play some keys and just build it from the ground up.
And I usually, as I said, will not write a single lyric or put in any melody until I've actually finished all the music first.
And then obviously I can change stuff once it's kind of done.
(07:14):
You know, if I start writing lyrics, I'm like, okay, that chorus needs to be longer or that, that doesn't really work there.
So amazing.
Yeah, it seems like it also, yeah, changing while you are learning.
It's like it gives you more opportunities to put different flavors on things 'cause you've come at it differently.
(07:37):
Oh definitely.
Yeah.
As the years have, yeah.
Progressed.
Yeah.
And I love that.
I love experimenting with different sounds and just, there's no rules now.
There's no thing of like, oh, well you've learnt the rules, now you can break them.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, I've gotta try to make it sound like a certain way.
Or I shouldn't put too much reverb on this.
It's like, nah, I'm doing what I want.
So.
(07:57):
This is an interesting segue, different questions from my standing questions.
Yep.
But does that mean that over time, this is a presumption, once upon a time you were writing from a more of a feeling space and now you are writing more from like a theory space 'cause you are writing it and.
(08:20):
Building the song from a producer.
I think once upon a time I was just, you know, just writing, you know, like the way, look, the stories and the lyrics and all that, they're still the same.
They still come.
Everything I write even now still comes from a real place, a real situation are real, something inside me.
(08:41):
But I think now, as I said, you know, sort of growing up in those type of movies and stuff like that, I try to, I almost sort of picture.
Those type of movies when I'm producing it.
Mm-hmm.
Of thinking like, you know, I'd love this.
I'm gonna make something that should be in a vampire movie.
And that's where why the music has to be done first for me.
(09:03):
Mm-hmm.
Because it's like, without that part of it, it's not gonna really sort of work.
And then as said, the words and that come after.
But all the, as I said, all the words do come from a, you know, real stories and yes, some.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's gotta come from somewhere.
Now I have many questions for you.
Go ahead.
(09:23):
So you have been part of all sorts of ensembles.
You've been doing all this amazing producing and learning all these skills.
You've released a bundle of music.
Yep.
But I'm curious, is there a piece of work or a body of work.
(09:44):
Or a project that you're most proud of being part of or creating?
Oh, I think, look, I think everything I'm doing now, like the music, I love it and I'm proud of it.
I think probably years ago, as I said, when I was just kind of just writing stuff just to be a songwriter, you know, I did actually go do a couple of gigs singing that stuff and it just didn't, well, didn't feel like me, and now I'm actually.
(10:12):
I love what I'm doing and I'm proud of what I'm doing, you know?
Um, and I look where, whether people like it or not, it doesn't, you know, where I used to think really hard about that.
As said, now I just, I'll do what I want, you know?
Mm-hmm.
It's like I'm not following any rules.
I'm not trying to make something to be on commercial radio.
I'm just like, I just want to create exactly the sound I've got in my head and just, yeah.
(10:37):
Yeah.
Did you ever feel that there was a tension before to sort of like trying to bridge that divide of commercial appeal versus the integrity and artistry of what you actually, what your North Star was, um, what you wanted to create?
I think it was more, as I said, I never wanted to be an artist.
(11:01):
I was always happy.
What, being in the back?
Yeah, I just, I was like always happy, you know, being in the background, playing guitar for other people.
Then when I was writing, the whole idea was like, you know, I want, I wanna learn how to write and produce so I could do it for other people, which I still want to do Now.
That's still, you know, I've done it for a couple of people, but, um, and it was, and so as I said, I was releasing everything from folk to country to.
(11:31):
Rock pop to whatever, you know?
And I remember people, you know, used to kind of say to me like, oh look, you know, the song's really good, but where's the job we're looking?
We are looking at, you know, and it was actually true.
It was like, you know, like it really wasn't me.
Like what I'm doing now is a hundred percent me.
And I think that's the difference, which, you know, there's plenty of singer songwriters and artists out there that write, yeah.
(11:59):
Heaps of genres that they would Yeah.
That's not their aesthetic that they release under.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's plenty.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's uh, not an uncommon thing to see.
Yeah.
It's very real.
Very real.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Oh, so much to be proud of.
Oh yeah.
It's just, you know, I mean, you gotta love what, you gotta love it.
That's her thing.
And that was, that was the main thing.
(12:19):
It was just kind of like, I want to love everything I'm doing.
Mm. Yeah.
Flip side of things that you're proud of.
Yeah.
Is there something or a time or an experience that's challenged your creativity?
Uh, I've definitely gone through stages where I just can't write or I can't, I don't feel creative at all.
(12:43):
As in more of like a creative block, um, or like there's been things going on.
Combination of, you know, things going on.
Obviously I work as a full-time musician as well, so.
Sometimes it's just like, especially during the busy season, I get home, the last thing I want to do is pick up a guitar or do anything and, but I'll still force myself to come down here and try to do something, but then I find it's just, yeah, it's, it's not working.
(13:11):
But, um, but you know, it, it's funny, it's like, you know, you could go through a breakup or something like that, which obviously that is never great, and that hurts and it takes a while for those feelings.
And that story to come out.
But once it does, it's like you end up with a song, you know, it's like you really do, you know, just, you just gotta write everything down and how you feeling at the time.
(13:35):
And then even if it comes six months later, you know, I mean, I've written songs now that from things that have happened 10 years ago, so there's something nice about the being able to reflect.
Yeah.
And it's a different story than what it would be if you would've written it.
Yeah.
10. Yeah, I think you get a different point of view from when it sort of happens and yeah.
(14:01):
So
when we think about writer's block, you were saying that you make yourself come and designate time to still try and Yeah, and create as I was, as I was saying before with them, I can still sit here and do the music.
(14:24):
So, as I said, I've got so many full songs recorded that I've got no lyrics on 'em.
So when you think about Writer's Block, that's more from a more singer songwriter space.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And so you are able to essentially still do music Yeah.
But just find, pivot.
(14:45):
Yeah.
A little bit and still be like, okay, well I might do.
A drum track, a fine groove.
Yeah.
Like I might be Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, I find, I find, I'm usually even with Riders Block, I find I can still come do the music side of it and you know, and then I might leave that alone for months and then come back when I'm feel, you know, sort of feeling better and pull up the song and go, oh cool, I'm gonna write some lyrics.
(15:12):
Yeah.
But like, actually, I mean, probably one song.
I sort of speaking, I'm proud of things like, um, which is actually probably my most played song.
It was, I literally finished the music and I'd never done this before where I actually just turned on the microphone.
I had no lyrics, I had no melody idea.
(15:32):
I just hit record and I just sung into the mic and the first thing that came out is what I released and it's, I just, yeah, I don't know where it came from and it just, yeah, it's.
My, probably my most played song.
So see, I love it when you have those little jammies.
Yeah.
Where they just fall out of you.
Yep.
(15:52):
Aren't they special?
They're great.
They don't happen all the time, fortunately.
No, no.
It was just, as I said, I was so surprised when it came out and um, yeah, it just like, I was just like, where did this come from?
You know?
It was a pretty raunchy song as well, and I was just like, it was nice to just kind of just go, you know what, I'm just gonna, first thing that popped into my head, I don't know where this.
Thing is coming from inside of me, but it's obviously there.
(16:15):
So yeah.
Just let it flow through.
Yeah.
Let it flow through.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, in this beautiful studio of yours, I wanna assume that there's some really special objects in here, whether we not they're connected to creations, but my question is, is there an object or thing that you can't live without when you are creating.
(16:42):
An object or thing.
I mean, look, I love all of this.
Said like, I, I can't sit in an empty room and just like, I love, you know, said, I've got toys everywhere, I've got books, I've got all kinds of stuff.
But really it's these studio monitors interesting.
Like they just sound so amazing where I can just sit here and just listen to music on 'em.
(17:03):
And it's just,
and yeah, so when you're actually sort of just creating into it, like sitting here, I'm just like, I just love the sound.
Of them so much.
It just really, they definitely can't live with them.
For those listening, what kind of mons are they?
They are Adam Audio A 77 Xs.
(17:24):
Yeah, they look really Buffy.
They are people, little Bof.
Bof.
Yeah.
I love it.
They are, that's the most descriptive word for the monitors, but I definitely, yeah, they're definitely probably my favorite.
Yeah, if I had to lose everything in the studio, like I'd need them back.
(17:45):
Mm. Yeah.
Interesting.
Now, if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be?
Don't overthink.
Don't try to fit any mold.
Just do it and think about it later, and always finish.
You know, even if it's a song.
That you'll never release, finish it.
(18:06):
There's been a lot of times where, you know, I've finished a song gone.
I don't really like that in the end of it, but I've finished it and then months later it'll come to me.
Time for me writing another song going, oh wait a second.
There's that part from that song from before and whatever, and then two songs become one.
(18:27):
Oh, I'm such an advocate for this.
Yeah.
Recycle.
Yep.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
As I said before, shoulder, never throw anything shoulder, but a lot can be said for the process of finishing something.
Yep.
Um, that is, that is definitely the big, probably the one big advice.
Finish everything.
Don't, even if you're not fi you know, like, I mean obviously there's some suffer you just not feeling.
(18:50):
You're just like, yeah.
But always attempt to just get it done.
Even write, you know, even writing a song, even if it's just, just sitting there with an acoustic guitar writing.
Whatever, try to finish it.
Try instead of writing a verse here, you know, one night.
It's like that.
Just write an entire song.
Just do it.
Yeah.
(19:11):
A lot can be said for the practice.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, and also just sometimes giving yourself that time limit when you have the never ending time.
Yeah.
You sometimes don't have the rush to.
Finish or Yeah.
Or, yeah, sometimes time.
Yeah.
Having a time limit is helpful.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Even if you're not gonna use them, you might use 'em later.
(19:34):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yep.
Now, I'm curious, you mentioned before that.
Your friends and colleagues and people that you know have been an amazing resource.
Yeah.
To tap into their brain and find out producer things.
Yep.
(19:54):
But if someone wanted to develop their creative process and do what you do, whether that be as a guitarist or as a producer Yeah.
As a songwriter, is there any resources that you would recommend?
Probably just listen to a lot of music like that is really.
I know it's an obvious one, but like listen to stuff you wouldn't listen to.
(20:19):
Normally I could pull up a playlist of songs that I, I reference when I'm, you know, even if I'm writing something completely heavy rock alternative, you know, I'll pull up a complete pop song and just, you know, reference little things and going, cool.
Yeah.
That is literally, I think the most important thing is just listening to.
(20:42):
Different music, listening to how things are put together, different sounds, the effects they use on the vocals.
Over the years of being a musician for so long, I've played so many different styles of music, so I kind of, I know a lot of stuff and heard a lot of things and it's, it's funny that the songs that will just inspire you to create something completely different from what inspired you.
(21:07):
So yeah, that.
Overlap of genres.
Yeah.
Always makes me laugh.
'cause I always think about Pharrell talking to, oh goodness, I can't think of his name right now.
From Nirvana and talking about like drum fills.
Yeah.
And to Dave Rell.
(21:28):
Yes.
Yep.
That's right.
And that conversation of like, it's actually like a disco drumbeat or whatever he does.
Yeah.
You know, it's, but unless of course you hear it in context, you probably don't realize.
Yeah.
And it's a true representation of why it's important to listen to Yeah.
All genres.
Yeah.
And get that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can learn something from everything.
(21:49):
I love that.
Well said.
Thank you.
Now, if you could hear another creative come on this podcast Yeah.
And answer these questions, who would it be and why?
I'm gonna say good friend of mine, Mike.
Joey.
He's the lead singer from a band, iron Sky.
And actually all the guys in their band.
And, um, they're, you know, they're another local Melbourne band and they're absolutely incredible.
(22:14):
So, Mikey, he was always a drummer, you know, I played with in a couple of different bands.
And then one day he kind of just said, oh, you know, I've been writing some songs and I'd never really heard him sing before.
And he released.
These songs, and they were just absolutely incredible.
And I, I was like, instant fan of like, you know, still as these do tell, I'm like, I just like, it's one of my favorite songs is Yeah, yours.
(22:38):
And, um, but now he's got a, you know, with a whole bunch of other Melbourne musos that put a band together and that absolutely incredible stuff.
Everyone should check 'em out.
Yes.
Yeah.
Nice.
I love this.
All right, I will investigate.
Do it.
Oh my goodness, Jo, what a glorious chat.
It's so nice to see you.
Great to see you too.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me there.
(22:59):
Oh my goodness.
Thanks so much for coming through the Creative Door.
Hidden time.
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through The Creative Door.
If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation.
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(23:30):
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Bye.
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