June 30, 2026 • 22 mins
This encore episode of Transportopia features Professor Anastasia Lukaitou‑Sideris discussing transit safety after a high‑profile incident in Charlotte. The conversation with Host Rick L'Amie focuses on how design, lighting, visibility, targeted staffing, technology, and community partnerships can reduce both crime and the fear of crime for riders and operators.
Professor Lukaitou‑Sideris highlights practical steps agencies can take now—safety audits, strategic resource allocation, environmental design changes, and clinician partnerships—to create transit spaces that feel open, welcoming, and secure, with special attention to women’s experiences.
Show Notes:
Professor Lukaitou-Sideris UCLA web page bio
Charlotte Area Transit System (CATS) Crime Report News Release
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, everybody. It's Rick. Quick note before we get into this episode. This is an encore
(00:05):
presentation of the Transportopia podcast. We are rerunning my conversation with Professor
Anastasia Locaito-Sedaris from a while back on transit crime and safety. This episode
is one of our most downloaded shows, so I wanted to bring it back now because the subject
hasn't gone anywhere. If anything, it's gotten louder. There's been a very public
(00:25):
fight this month between U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy and Congressman Jerry
Nadler over whether transit is actually safe, and agencies all over the country, from New
York to Chicago and Charlotte, have been putting out dueling prime numbers to make their case.
Everybody seems to be arguing about the statistics. Almost nobody's talking about what actually
makes a station or a train feel safe to the person standing in it, which is exactly what
(00:50):
this conversation is about. I'm Rick Lemie, and this is Transportopia, a podcast exploring
the past, present, and future of public transportation, the built environment, and more.
Today we're diving into one of the most urgent and emotional issues in the industry, safety
and security. How do we protect riders and operators while still creating spaces that
(01:14):
feel open, welcoming, and human? My guest today is Professor Anastasia Lukaitou-Sideris,
UCLA Luskin School of Public Affairs professor, and one of the world's leading voices on urban
transit design and transit safety. Her research has helped cities understand how lighting,
visibility, and design influence not only the risk of crime, but the fear of it. A warm
(01:37):
welcome to you, Anastasia, to Transportopia.
Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure to be here.
This is our little tradition on the show. We like to get to know our guests as if we're
together sharing beverages over a conversation, say at a conference. So what are you enjoying
while we talk today?
It's very boring, but I'm enjoying water.
(01:58):
So I did kind of go all out today. I've got the banana cream protein matcha. This is a
Starbucks beverage. I've never had it, so I'm tasting it for the first time. Okay, pretty
good. I'm not a big matcha drinker, but I thought I would do something different for
this episode.
Before we jump into our main topic, I do like to ask my guest, what's your first or earliest
(02:37):
or most vivid memory of using public transportation? A time where you remember either early on
in your life or something recent that you rode transit and what was your experience?
I actually, the memories of using public transportation come from another country. I'm originally
from Greece. I was born in Greece, even though I have lived more of my life now in the United
(03:00):
States. I came as a college student and I was using transit almost every day to go from
my home to the university, to go to reach different places. I was using bus transit,
trolleys, very, very, very often, every day.
That's wonderful. And it's something that many Americans who visit Europe see that we
(03:24):
don't have here in this country. So it sounds like you have had that experience, but not
so much probably in California.
Not unfortunately, no. There have been a number of, especially California, Los Angeles,
the geography is so expanded that oftentimes, let's say to go from home to the university,
I would need two or three buses and a lot of transfer time. So it takes up much longer.
(03:50):
And that's actually the tragedy of transit in LA, that it takes much longer than the
private car.
Right. You're among many in the U.S. who experience that. After a quick break to give our listeners
a moment to refill their coffee, tea, or beverage of choice, we'll set the stage for today's
show, how one tragic incident in Charlotte put transit safety in the national spotlight
(04:15):
and what it tells us about the challenges ahead.
And we're back. I'm Rick Lemie, and this is the Transportopia podcast. Today, we're
(04:42):
talking about safety and security in public transit and why it's not just about enforcement
or technology, but the environments we create and the feelings they inspire.
In August of this year, the Charlotte Area Transit System, or CATS, was shaken by tragedy
when Irina Zarutska, a 23-year-old passenger, was fatally stabbed aboard a Blue Line light
(05:02):
rail train near the East West Boulevard station. The Federal Transit Administration quickly
launched a safety audit, and what they found raised difficult questions. Despite tripling
its security since 2022, CATS had 40 percent fewer armed guards in the field. The audit
also revealed that contracting rules tied to the city's inclusion program limited which
(05:24):
firms could bid, creating tension between equity goals and security performance. At
the time of the attack, staffing levels were well below authorized strength. CATS leadership
defended their approach, saying it's unrealistic to post armed officers on every rail car,
and pointed to new investments in lighting, technology, and mobile patrols. Still for
(05:45):
many riders, the tragedy exposed a deeper issue. Safety isn't just about policing,
it's about presence, visibility, and design. It's about whether people feel seen and secure
in the spaces they occupy, and that's where our guest today brings such valuable insight.
Professor Lucaido-Sedeiros has spent her career studying how thoughtful design can reduce
both crime and fear of crime, creating transit spaces that invite trust and dignity. Professor,
(06:10):
you've written that fear in transit spaces often stems less from actual danger than from
the signals our surroundings send, like darkness or emptiness or neglect. When you look at
that Charlotte case and the response to it, what stands out to you as transit agencies
work to understand safety today?
Well, when we talk about transit safety, it is not a one-size-fits-all solution, and it's
(06:35):
not only one thing that we can do. Certainly, the response of the agency that we cannot
put officers on every stop, on every vehicle, is understandable. It is extremely expensive,
it is impossible, but there are many other ways to help decrease the fear that many transit
(06:58):
riders feel and even increase safety. Some of these have to do with design, as you've
mentioned, and there is a whole area of study and recommendations about crime prevention
through environmental design. A number of them have to do more recently with technology
and different types of technology from, well, not so recent. We have these video cameras,
(07:25):
CCTV cameras, but now we're talking about the new apps that in real time people can
use to know, for example, when the transit vehicle is going to be at the stop, minimizing
the time a rider has to wait, or giving information to transit officers that something is happening
(07:49):
in real time. So, technology has a lot to do in some systems in other parts of the world,
even scanning for weapons. Education and training also has a lot to do, and also different
policies that transit agencies have started implementing, such as rider codes of contact,
(08:13):
such as even allowing passengers to disembark at locations that are closer to their destination,
especially at night, training their operators to de-escalate situations. So, there are a
number of things that can happen that can increase the safety and decrease the fear.
(08:37):
You have mentioned a concept called defensible space. Are there other cost-effective designs
or changes that agencies could make to improve real and perceived safety?
Yes, the defensible space is not my idea. It comes from Oscar Newman in the 70s. He was indicating
how you can use environmental design to improve safety. And I think even from where you are
(09:01):
placing a bus stop has something to do with its safety. Going back to some of my own earlier
studies, I was looking into bus stop crime and where it happens and why. And of course,
the common reaction is that it happens mostly along lines that go through high crime areas.
But what I was finding, looking into these bus stops that were on the same line and maybe
(09:29):
150 feet from one another, one would have a lot of crime incidents and the other would
be completely free of crime. So, I started looking into the immediate characteristics
of the microenvironment around the bus stop. And I would see, for example, that the safe bus stop
was in front of busy establishments, of people getting in and out of shops, for example.
(09:53):
There was this level of natural surveillance, what has been also called eyes on the street or
eyes on the bus stop, while the dangerous bus stops were in front of vacant lots, no lighting.
So, what criminologists are telling us are that potential criminals are typically
(10:15):
rational individuals. They don't want to get caught in most cases. And sometimes,
we have people with mental health issues that may not be acting rationally. But in most cases,
people who want to do a criminal act, they don't want to get caught. And so, making visibility
(10:36):
higher through lighting, through land uses, through the placement of bus stops, all these
are environmental factors that can be manipulated to make the transit environment safer.
That's an important perspective. You know, as a transit professional, I've had organizations or
sometimes even our member cities say, you should move your bus stop because you're attracting crime.
(11:02):
And really, what's happening is more along the lines of what you said, is that it's already
happening in the community. Transit just happens to be a part of it. And that's a way for us to be
at the table for a solution, isn't it? Absolutely. And it is true that, you know,
transit environments are crime attractors and generators, but they have nothing. If you think
(11:23):
about the hundreds of thousands of people that go through these environments every day, it is
the numbers of people, the anonymities of the crowd that may make it easier to have crime.
It is nothing wrong with transit environments that creates crime. It is just the sheer number
(11:47):
of folks. And I think that transit agencies are aware, should be aware of all that.
The other difficulty with transit environments is that, unlike airports that also concentrate
hundreds of thousands of people, it is much more difficult to instigate certain measures that
(12:11):
completely would protect people. So, for example, nobody would want to spend an extra hour to get
screened to wait for the bus stop. When you go to the airport, you are expecting that it is part of,
especially after 9-11, you expect that you're going to have the TSA controls. You expect you're
(12:33):
going to, so you're going three hours earlier, two hours earlier. But people who use transit
every day cannot afford to spend so much to go through the screening machines. So it is an
environment that it is very open and very accessible. And that's why it has the potential
(12:56):
to generate some crime. And that's why we need all these different strategies that I've mentioned
in order to be able to minimize crime. Right. That makes sense. And in terms of even the
CATS example, it is impossible to put security guards on every train, or if it is, it would
be so expensive, right? Absolutely. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about one of your other areas
(13:22):
of research, and that is on women's experience in transit and how fear affects travel choices,
especially at night. What should the agencies be doing to make women feel safer? So I was
very sensitized to this issue and how it affects women, because as a young woman in Greece, I was
very much affected. I was taking precautions, how and where I was going to sit on the bus,
(13:46):
how I was going to put backpack to separate me from other passengers and so on and so forth.
So I've studied that and I found that, unfortunately, it is a global phenomenon.
We kind of, with a colleague of mine from Sweden, we examined 18 different cities in
six different continents, and we found that harassment is unfortunately present,
(14:12):
but it is a common problem that women have to deal with. On top of that, women are always
found in every survey of crime much more fearful about being victimized. And that leads to many
precautionary measures, and in extreme cases, even complete avoidance of using transit or using
(14:38):
transit that a lot of women would not use transit at night. A lot of women would possibly go to a
further stop if they perceive it that is more well-lit, that it is safer. And so this absolutely
affects their mobility. And this is something that not only me, but other scholars have written about
(15:05):
should be, transit agencies should be aware of that because at least 50% of their
customers, their riders are women. And I was talking once to a journalist, San Francisco,
he said, I have four daughters that are using transit. I'm very much concerned about their
safety. So it is not only women, but people who love women, their families and all that.
(15:31):
So it is a bigger issue, I would say, in terms of the fear of crime. And it certainly is a much
bigger issue in terms of the reality of sexual harassment on transit, that it affects more women
than men. I have a daughter who lives in Brooklyn and rides transit, has no car. And I do think about
(15:51):
that. And I am one of those family members who have loved ones who are on transit. And in a way,
isn't it that, as you said, transit concentrates people in a small space for a shorter period of
time. So the things that are happening that you just talked about do happen all over, but they
seem to be more likely, would you say, perhaps on transit because of that environment?
(16:15):
Absolutely. It is not, again, if you kind of look into crime per capita, which is crime per
number of people, you would find that the numbers would, you would not see anything
different in transit. It is simply the fact that it attracts hundreds of thousands of people
every day in small spaces that increases sometimes the opportunities for crime.
(16:41):
And, you know, some trends we're seeing across the country at places like SEPTA in Philadelphia
and the RTD, the Regional Transit District in Denver, is that they are contracting out
experts who are leading people to get help, whether it's for homelessness or getting counseling for
drug issues. Do you see that as part of the responsibility for transit agencies as well?
(17:05):
I see this as a good example of partnerships that transit agencies need to get into to address
the issue that, unfortunately, yes, we do have a lot of people who are very vulnerable, who may
need mental health help, and who may have some negative effects on other people who are using
(17:30):
transit. And this is not a problem that transit creates, but they have to deal with it. And
usually they are not in the business of knowing how to best help unhoused people. So these
partnerships are very important. I have studied both what SEPTA has done. They have created
(17:51):
a hub for services in one of their very busy transit stations, and hundreds of unhoused folks
go there and they can get help. And in Colorado, in Denver, the transit agency there has partnered
with clinicians that they accompany transit police. And sometimes it is the clinician
(18:13):
that is front and the police officers are on the background because people who need help
are much more likely to accept help and feel more comfortable with a clinician who knows what to do.
If you were advising a general manager or transit board, what's one practical step or
(18:34):
some simple steps they could take this year to make riders feel safer? First of all, do a bit
of an audit to see where in the past most of the incidents have happened. And also, quite often,
this relates to use. Usually most of the incidents happen in the mostly used spaces. And so to
(18:56):
concentrate their resources to do more of a strategic allocation of resources in terms of
environmental design, again, retrofit costs, takes money. So when I was looking into Los Angeles
bus stop crime, the vast majority of the crime was concentrated on about 19% of the bus stops.
(19:22):
So we have very high concentrations in very limited numbers. So try to understand their
system. That's one thing. And do safety audits, sometimes even with community actors, community
groups, schools in the area, parent-teacher associations. Do that and then proceed
accordingly. Do research, find data, match it with your resources. And also, don't only rely
(19:53):
on one strategy. And in these resources, you can use, again, technology selectively. This is where
you may have your food patrols with the clinicians. So I guess if I could give one advice,
that would be it. Sound insensible. Thanks so much for all that.
Finally, where can listeners find your work or follow your research?
(20:16):
I have written extensively. There is a book that has come out on the sexual harassment in the 18
cities I've mentioned that was published by Routledge in 2020. I have written multiple
articles that have been published. There is a lot of my work that is free to access online
(20:40):
through the Institute of Transportation Studies at UCLA, ITS, a number of reports,
some research reports about transit homelessness, reports about, again, women and transit.
I have consulted a number of agencies such as Metro on a kind of a landmark study on
(21:04):
how women travel. I have chapters in books. It's pretty easy to find my work.
Well, Professor, thanks so much again for joining us, reminding us that safety systems are the ones
designed with people in mind. And we'll include links to your books and research in our show
notes. Thanks again. Okay. Thank you very much. It was a real pleasure to talk to you, Rick.
(21:28):
That wraps up this Encore episode of the Transportopia podcast. We'll be back next
week with our bonus News and Views episode. Until then, visit transportopia.org for show notes,
our blog, and more. And do me a favor, let us know what you think on our website.
Check out our sub stack and like us wherever you get your podcasts.
(21:48):
Thanks for listening. I'm Rick Lemie. Goodbye, everybody.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Hey, everybody. It's Rick. Quick note before we get into this episode. This is an encore
(00:05):
presentation of the Transportopia podcast. We are rerunning my conversation with Professor
Anastasia Locaito-Sedaris from a while back on transit crime and safety. This episode
is one of our most downloaded shows, so I wanted to bring it back now because the subject
hasn't gone anywhere. If anything, it's gotten louder. There's been a very public
(00:25):
fight this month between U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy and Congressman Jerry
Nadler over whether transit is actually safe, and agencies all over the country, from New
York to Chicago and Charlotte, have been putting out dueling prime numbers to make their case.
Everybody seems to be arguing about the statistics. Almost nobody's talking about what actually
makes a station or a train feel safe to the person standing in it, which is exactly what
(00:50):
this conversation is about. I'm Rick Lemie, and this is Transportopia, a podcast exploring
the past, present, and future of public transportation, the built environment, and more.
Today we're diving into one of the most urgent and emotional issues in the industry, safety
and security. How do we protect riders and operators while still creating spaces that
(01:14):
feel open, welcoming, and human? My guest today is Professor Anastasia Lukaitou-Sideris,
UCLA Luskin School of Public Affairs professor, and one of the world's leading voices on urban
transit design and transit safety. Her research has helped cities understand how lighting,
visibility, and design influence not only the risk of crime, but the fear of it. A warm
(01:37):
welcome to you, Anastasia, to Transportopia.
Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure to be here.
This is our little tradition on the show. We like to get to know our guests as if we're
together sharing beverages over a conversation, say at a conference. So what are you enjoying
while we talk today?
It's very boring, but I'm enjoying water.
(01:58):
So I did kind of go all out today. I've got the banana cream protein matcha. This is a
Starbucks beverage. I've never had it, so I'm tasting it for the first time. Okay, pretty
good. I'm not a big matcha drinker, but I thought I would do something different for
this episode.
Before we jump into our main topic, I do like to ask my guest, what's your first or earliest
(02:37):
or most vivid memory of using public transportation? A time where you remember either early on
in your life or something recent that you rode transit and what was your experience?
I actually, the memories of using public transportation come from another country. I'm originally
from Greece. I was born in Greece, even though I have lived more of my life now in the United
(03:00):
States. I came as a college student and I was using transit almost every day to go from
my home to the university, to go to reach different places. I was using bus transit,
trolleys, very, very, very often, every day.
That's wonderful. And it's something that many Americans who visit Europe see that we
(03:24):
don't have here in this country. So it sounds like you have had that experience, but not
so much probably in California.
Not unfortunately, no. There have been a number of, especially California, Los Angeles,
the geography is so expanded that oftentimes, let's say to go from home to the university,
I would need two or three buses and a lot of transfer time. So it takes up much longer.
(03:50):
And that's actually the tragedy of transit in LA, that it takes much longer than the
private car.
Right. You're among many in the U.S. who experience that. After a quick break to give our listeners
a moment to refill their coffee, tea, or beverage of choice, we'll set the stage for today's
show, how one tragic incident in Charlotte put transit safety in the national spotlight
(04:15):
and what it tells us about the challenges ahead.
And we're back. I'm Rick Lemie, and this is the Transportopia podcast. Today, we're
(04:42):
talking about safety and security in public transit and why it's not just about enforcement
or technology, but the environments we create and the feelings they inspire.
In August of this year, the Charlotte Area Transit System, or CATS, was shaken by tragedy
when Irina Zarutska, a 23-year-old passenger, was fatally stabbed aboard a Blue Line light
(05:02):
rail train near the East West Boulevard station. The Federal Transit Administration quickly
launched a safety audit, and what they found raised difficult questions. Despite tripling
its security since 2022, CATS had 40 percent fewer armed guards in the field. The audit
also revealed that contracting rules tied to the city's inclusion program limited which
(05:24):
firms could bid, creating tension between equity goals and security performance. At
the time of the attack, staffing levels were well below authorized strength. CATS leadership
defended their approach, saying it's unrealistic to post armed officers on every rail car,
and pointed to new investments in lighting, technology, and mobile patrols. Still for
(05:45):
many riders, the tragedy exposed a deeper issue. Safety isn't just about policing,
it's about presence, visibility, and design. It's about whether people feel seen and secure
in the spaces they occupy, and that's where our guest today brings such valuable insight.
Professor Lucaido-Sedeiros has spent her career studying how thoughtful design can reduce
both crime and fear of crime, creating transit spaces that invite trust and dignity. Professor,
(06:10):
you've written that fear in transit spaces often stems less from actual danger than from
the signals our surroundings send, like darkness or emptiness or neglect. When you look at
that Charlotte case and the response to it, what stands out to you as transit agencies
work to understand safety today?
Well, when we talk about transit safety, it is not a one-size-fits-all solution, and it's
(06:35):
not only one thing that we can do. Certainly, the response of the agency that we cannot
put officers on every stop, on every vehicle, is understandable. It is extremely expensive,
it is impossible, but there are many other ways to help decrease the fear that many transit
(06:58):
riders feel and even increase safety. Some of these have to do with design, as you've
mentioned, and there is a whole area of study and recommendations about crime prevention
through environmental design. A number of them have to do more recently with technology
and different types of technology from, well, not so recent. We have these video cameras,
(07:25):
CCTV cameras, but now we're talking about the new apps that in real time people can
use to know, for example, when the transit vehicle is going to be at the stop, minimizing
the time a rider has to wait, or giving information to transit officers that something is happening
(07:49):
in real time. So, technology has a lot to do in some systems in other parts of the world,
even scanning for weapons. Education and training also has a lot to do, and also different
policies that transit agencies have started implementing, such as rider codes of contact,
(08:13):
such as even allowing passengers to disembark at locations that are closer to their destination,
especially at night, training their operators to de-escalate situations. So, there are a
number of things that can happen that can increase the safety and decrease the fear.
(08:37):
You have mentioned a concept called defensible space. Are there other cost-effective designs
or changes that agencies could make to improve real and perceived safety?
Yes, the defensible space is not my idea. It comes from Oscar Newman in the 70s. He was indicating
how you can use environmental design to improve safety. And I think even from where you are
(09:01):
placing a bus stop has something to do with its safety. Going back to some of my own earlier
studies, I was looking into bus stop crime and where it happens and why. And of course,
the common reaction is that it happens mostly along lines that go through high crime areas.
But what I was finding, looking into these bus stops that were on the same line and maybe
(09:29):
150 feet from one another, one would have a lot of crime incidents and the other would
be completely free of crime. So, I started looking into the immediate characteristics
of the microenvironment around the bus stop. And I would see, for example, that the safe bus stop
was in front of busy establishments, of people getting in and out of shops, for example.
(09:53):
There was this level of natural surveillance, what has been also called eyes on the street or
eyes on the bus stop, while the dangerous bus stops were in front of vacant lots, no lighting.
So, what criminologists are telling us are that potential criminals are typically
(10:15):
rational individuals. They don't want to get caught in most cases. And sometimes,
we have people with mental health issues that may not be acting rationally. But in most cases,
people who want to do a criminal act, they don't want to get caught. And so, making visibility
(10:36):
higher through lighting, through land uses, through the placement of bus stops, all these
are environmental factors that can be manipulated to make the transit environment safer.
That's an important perspective. You know, as a transit professional, I've had organizations or
sometimes even our member cities say, you should move your bus stop because you're attracting crime.
(11:02):
And really, what's happening is more along the lines of what you said, is that it's already
happening in the community. Transit just happens to be a part of it. And that's a way for us to be
at the table for a solution, isn't it? Absolutely. And it is true that, you know,
transit environments are crime attractors and generators, but they have nothing. If you think
(11:23):
about the hundreds of thousands of people that go through these environments every day, it is
the numbers of people, the anonymities of the crowd that may make it easier to have crime.
It is nothing wrong with transit environments that creates crime. It is just the sheer number
(11:47):
of folks. And I think that transit agencies are aware, should be aware of all that.
The other difficulty with transit environments is that, unlike airports that also concentrate
hundreds of thousands of people, it is much more difficult to instigate certain measures that
(12:11):
completely would protect people. So, for example, nobody would want to spend an extra hour to get
screened to wait for the bus stop. When you go to the airport, you are expecting that it is part of,
especially after 9-11, you expect that you're going to have the TSA controls. You expect you're
(12:33):
going to, so you're going three hours earlier, two hours earlier. But people who use transit
every day cannot afford to spend so much to go through the screening machines. So it is an
environment that it is very open and very accessible. And that's why it has the potential
(12:56):
to generate some crime. And that's why we need all these different strategies that I've mentioned
in order to be able to minimize crime. Right. That makes sense. And in terms of even the
CATS example, it is impossible to put security guards on every train, or if it is, it would
be so expensive, right? Absolutely. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about one of your other areas
(13:22):
of research, and that is on women's experience in transit and how fear affects travel choices,
especially at night. What should the agencies be doing to make women feel safer? So I was
very sensitized to this issue and how it affects women, because as a young woman in Greece, I was
very much affected. I was taking precautions, how and where I was going to sit on the bus,
(13:46):
how I was going to put backpack to separate me from other passengers and so on and so forth.
So I've studied that and I found that, unfortunately, it is a global phenomenon.
We kind of, with a colleague of mine from Sweden, we examined 18 different cities in
six different continents, and we found that harassment is unfortunately present,
(14:12):
but it is a common problem that women have to deal with. On top of that, women are always
found in every survey of crime much more fearful about being victimized. And that leads to many
precautionary measures, and in extreme cases, even complete avoidance of using transit or using
(14:38):
transit that a lot of women would not use transit at night. A lot of women would possibly go to a
further stop if they perceive it that is more well-lit, that it is safer. And so this absolutely
affects their mobility. And this is something that not only me, but other scholars have written about
(15:05):
should be, transit agencies should be aware of that because at least 50% of their
customers, their riders are women. And I was talking once to a journalist, San Francisco,
he said, I have four daughters that are using transit. I'm very much concerned about their
safety. So it is not only women, but people who love women, their families and all that.
(15:31):
So it is a bigger issue, I would say, in terms of the fear of crime. And it certainly is a much
bigger issue in terms of the reality of sexual harassment on transit, that it affects more women
than men. I have a daughter who lives in Brooklyn and rides transit, has no car. And I do think about
(15:51):
that. And I am one of those family members who have loved ones who are on transit. And in a way,
isn't it that, as you said, transit concentrates people in a small space for a shorter period of
time. So the things that are happening that you just talked about do happen all over, but they
seem to be more likely, would you say, perhaps on transit because of that environment?
(16:15):
Absolutely. It is not, again, if you kind of look into crime per capita, which is crime per
number of people, you would find that the numbers would, you would not see anything
different in transit. It is simply the fact that it attracts hundreds of thousands of people
every day in small spaces that increases sometimes the opportunities for crime.
(16:41):
And, you know, some trends we're seeing across the country at places like SEPTA in Philadelphia
and the RTD, the Regional Transit District in Denver, is that they are contracting out
experts who are leading people to get help, whether it's for homelessness or getting counseling for
drug issues. Do you see that as part of the responsibility for transit agencies as well?
(17:05):
I see this as a good example of partnerships that transit agencies need to get into to address
the issue that, unfortunately, yes, we do have a lot of people who are very vulnerable, who may
need mental health help, and who may have some negative effects on other people who are using
(17:30):
transit. And this is not a problem that transit creates, but they have to deal with it. And
usually they are not in the business of knowing how to best help unhoused people. So these
partnerships are very important. I have studied both what SEPTA has done. They have created
(17:51):
a hub for services in one of their very busy transit stations, and hundreds of unhoused folks
go there and they can get help. And in Colorado, in Denver, the transit agency there has partnered
with clinicians that they accompany transit police. And sometimes it is the clinician
(18:13):
that is front and the police officers are on the background because people who need help
are much more likely to accept help and feel more comfortable with a clinician who knows what to do.
If you were advising a general manager or transit board, what's one practical step or
(18:34):
some simple steps they could take this year to make riders feel safer? First of all, do a bit
of an audit to see where in the past most of the incidents have happened. And also, quite often,
this relates to use. Usually most of the incidents happen in the mostly used spaces. And so to
(18:56):
concentrate their resources to do more of a strategic allocation of resources in terms of
environmental design, again, retrofit costs, takes money. So when I was looking into Los Angeles
bus stop crime, the vast majority of the crime was concentrated on about 19% of the bus stops.
(19:22):
So we have very high concentrations in very limited numbers. So try to understand their
system. That's one thing. And do safety audits, sometimes even with community actors, community
groups, schools in the area, parent-teacher associations. Do that and then proceed
accordingly. Do research, find data, match it with your resources. And also, don't only rely
(19:53):
on one strategy. And in these resources, you can use, again, technology selectively. This is where
you may have your food patrols with the clinicians. So I guess if I could give one advice,
that would be it. Sound insensible. Thanks so much for all that.
Finally, where can listeners find your work or follow your research?
(20:16):
I have written extensively. There is a book that has come out on the sexual harassment in the 18
cities I've mentioned that was published by Routledge in 2020. I have written multiple
articles that have been published. There is a lot of my work that is free to access online
(20:40):
through the Institute of Transportation Studies at UCLA, ITS, a number of reports,
some research reports about transit homelessness, reports about, again, women and transit.
I have consulted a number of agencies such as Metro on a kind of a landmark study on
(21:04):
how women travel. I have chapters in books. It's pretty easy to find my work.
Well, Professor, thanks so much again for joining us, reminding us that safety systems are the ones
designed with people in mind. And we'll include links to your books and research in our show
notes. Thanks again. Okay. Thank you very much. It was a real pleasure to talk to you, Rick.
(21:28):
That wraps up this Encore episode of the Transportopia podcast. We'll be back next
week with our bonus News and Views episode. Until then, visit transportopia.org for show notes,
our blog, and more. And do me a favor, let us know what you think on our website.
Check out our sub stack and like us wherever you get your podcasts.
(21:48):
Thanks for listening. I'm Rick Lemie. Goodbye, everybody.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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