February 25, 2025 • 45 mins
Brendan Shaw opens up about the tragic loss of his brother, Philip, and the complexities of grief, justice, and healing. He shares the emotional toll of legal battles, the unique pain of sibling loss, and how grief reshapes relationships. The conversation explores the differences in how men and women process grief, the power of connection, and finding purpose after tragedy. Connect with Brendan here: brendanshawgrief.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is part two of Brendan Shaw's interview.
(00:03):
The second half of this two-part episode
takes us into the toughest conversation
we've ever had on this podcast.
Our goal was to spark meaningful dialogue
about the weight of traumatic loss,
also honoring the depth of pain without sensationalizing it.
We're incredibly grateful to Brendan Shaw for his bravery,
sharing his story of losing his brother.
This conversation also highlights
(00:24):
an injustice his morning family's face
in the court system today.
As you listen, we ask you to approach this conversation
with the same care and respect we brought to it.
[♪ music playing, fades out.
[♪ music ends.
Welcome to the Two Girls with Grief podcast,
(00:46):
the podcast where we share our real and raw experiences with grief.
Whether it's tears or laughter or maybe a little bit of both,
we're here to figure it out in real time.
We are your hosts, I'm Kendall Rogers,
and I'm Rachel Dwyer.
And while we're not professionals, we are professional grievers.
Every Tuesday we bring you honest conversations
(01:06):
that break down the stigma of grief,
one episode at a time,
because no one should have to grieve alone.
So grab a cup of coffee, settle in,
and let's navigate this journey together.
I think what's interesting about your story in particular
is that when I look at my own grief with my own dad,
I experienced a new sense of anger
(01:29):
that I had never experienced before.
But I had nowhere to funnel it or channel it.
It was more of an existential sense of why would my dad die?
How could this happen to him?
He's so young type of thing.
Whereas I, as an external person looking into and hearing your story,
(01:54):
you do have someone to be angry with.
I imagine my anger and you have this deeper anger underneath.
Do you find that could change your perspective on your life entirely?
Or are there other things involved in all of this
that has changed your perspective on life and relationships and things?
(02:15):
Yeah, that's something I'm not that far into this whole thing still.
April is three years. I'm hoping that changes.
I don't think I see it changing a ton given the nature.
You hear people who lose somebody to a drunk driver,
(02:37):
and then years later, for their own healing, forgive that person.
They understand you're a person, you made a mistake, and they can forgive them.
That anger, I guarantee, is there at first.
This does not have that.
That's a struggle.
I can feel that pretty often.
(02:59):
I think the way I've noticed it in my life,
and I have to work on it all the time, is my patience.
It's affected my patience with little, insignificant things or small talk.
Or if someone's complaining about nothing, just that kind of thing,
(03:20):
I can feel myself get, and I know that that's where it's coming from.
I also try to give myself a little bit of grace with that,
because what else am I supposed to feel about that?
I try not to fight it.
You're too angry about this. You don't need to be angry.
No, I think it's okay that that's in there, as long as I'm aware of it,
(03:41):
and I am managing it, but this is my brother.
It's kind of interesting to see the differences between how the males in my life
and the females in my life that are very close to this situation,
the differences in what they've focused on to this day,
where their energy and thoughts are.
(04:04):
At some point, you have to remember we are animals,
and there is a primal nature to this type of situation,
where it's like my initial thing is, you know, round the troops,
and what are we doing here? That's where I go,
and the girls do not in any way.
(04:25):
They're obviously unbelievably angry and sad and all that,
but it is interesting to watch that play out.
Me and Kendall talk about, as well, you rarely see men talking about grief,
and it's more so women talking about it,
and I feel like when there are men talking about grief,
it's almost like a phenomenon where everyone's curious,
how do you guys deal with it?
(04:46):
Because we even posed the questions once, and we're like,
how do men grieve? Because I don't see them in our support groups,
you don't see them in all these spaces. It's very rare.
It's like 98% women, and then there's a few men,
and responses were like, they don't.
They go to drugs or alcohol, or they just get angry,
and it's such an interesting thing where it's like,
(05:07):
I never saw it as something so different, but I guess it really is.
When you try to look in the spaces or hear from other people,
me and my brother are so different with how we deal with it, for sure.
So I have that experience, but it's interesting for you to bring that up,
because I do think that there is such a stark difference,
and I think a lot of men would benefit from talking about it more,
(05:29):
because it's obviously a hard thing if you just kept it in.
And I've seen you say, even watching my videos,
you feel better actually letting it out and speaking about it,
and we've shared that too. It's better to let it out,
but maybe by you speaking about it, maybe that is slowly helping the tide,
where men are realizing grief is a hard thing.
(05:51):
Maybe we shouldn't just drink or something.
Maybe talking about it is actually the best way to handle it.
Well, it's interesting. I have my own personal view on that,
is that if men who need to be grieving aren't,
and they think it's because of any sort of misplaced thought
that they need to be tough or strong,
(06:14):
but then they go down a route, like you're saying,
where they just disassociate or they drink or they turn to some other thing,
to me, that's super weak. That's weakness.
That is not strength in any way, shape, or form,
because you are literally not addressing.
What I'm dealing with on a day-to-day basis would be so much easier
(06:35):
if I just maybe went to heroin. I don't know.
If I could just completely turn my brain off, that would be really awesome.
I see that as complete weakness, and it's not helping anybody.
It's not helping anyone in your life by not addressing it.
It's some sort of misplaced manly thing for anyone who thinks that.
(07:01):
I'm not saying everybody thinks that,
but if you do know that that's actually you're running.
You're running from something really difficult,
the hardest thing maybe we ever will deal with,
and that does not show me strength whatsoever.
I definitely think it's the hardest thing we ever go through.
I can't think of anything harder than losing the people that you love.
(07:23):
That is the hardest thing.
But going off of that, we talked about it a little bit,
but what do you wish people understood about grief when it's tied to a traumatic loss?
I just feel like it is so different than what me and Kendall experience
that I feel like there needs to be a different way that it's addressed or thought about.
(07:45):
Yeah. This won't be helpful,
but what everyone should know about a situation like this is that you cannot understand.
You cannot. You will not. You cannot.
I can confidently say that I lived on this earth for 37 years
as a normal person with a normal life.
(08:09):
If you had asked me, I could have gotten a college degree in this.
I could have sat in classes eight hours a day for four years,
and someone could have tried to give me this, and I'm telling you, never.
Not even remotely close.
And that's okay.
If everybody just accepts you don't understand and therefore act accordingly.
(08:36):
Don't tell me you understand, first of all.
But even other things like when people talk about this kind of thing,
we have this culture of these TV shows and people talk about this stuff,
and it's like if these people understood, if they could step in my shoes for just a minute,
they would change their tune pretty quickly, I think. I hope.
Yeah, this is some of the worst pain anybody could ever feel.
(09:00):
For it to be in your situation such a different source
and then for it to manifest in such a different way,
I think a lot of people can relate to losing someone in a medical sense
and having lost people to illness.
In fact, I think a lot of people in our support group have lost people that way.
In some sense, I hate to say this, it's nice to know I have a friend, Rachel,
(09:25):
and that we share that similar experience.
But my God, yeah, you really can't put yourself,
even as Rachel and I were getting ready for this episode,
she and I just were like, I cannot imagine going into a court case,
having to show up and relive everything all over again.
For someone who might be listening right now, who is in a similar bucket as you
(09:49):
and the similar type of grief and traumatic loss, do you have advice for them?
Do you have something that you would want to share with them that maybe you find profound?
Are you even there yet?
No, I know.
You don't have to answer.
I do. I wish I had some magic bullet.
But to be honest, I don't think it's all that different from what you guys would say.
(10:12):
I don't.
Maybe the timeframe is going to be a little bit different if we're talking about legal stuff and all that,
if you're in that kind of a situation.
Yes, that will delay things, that will complicate things.
One minute you'll be missing the person, the next you'll be in disbelief,
the next you can't believe you're sitting in a court room talking to DAs.
There's lots of that.
(10:33):
But really, it comes down to the same stuff that anybody who loses someone significant would tell other people.
It's day to day.
In the beginning, minute to minute, it's just – and it's not easy, and it's going to be hard,
whether you're a man or a woman, if you're in a situation like that.
The more I was around people, I guess the better, being alone.
(11:01):
Even still, I say it all the time, for some reason driving in the car, if I'm in the car alone,
that does something to our brains where we're running at a low level of operation
because we have to be able to drive our car and pay attention.
But then it shuts off all of the unnecessary noise and just allows the loudest voice to come in.
(11:24):
That's what I think, and that's always super, super hard for me.
If I'm alone in certain situations, you never know where your thoughts are going to go.
So you have to get a hold of them a little bit and recognize that you can move on from that thought.
Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to go,
now let's dwell 45 minutes on that and dig even deeper.
(11:48):
It's hard to do, and at first, potentially impossible,
but with time, it becomes a little bit easier to go.
There's that familiar fucking voice that I have to – there it is.
There's that thing, and it's not new anymore, and because it's not new,
it doesn't hold that same strength on you.
(12:10):
So yeah, it's a process. I mean, it'll be a process for the rest of my life.
This is not something that will ever go away. You guys know that as well as I do.
In this case, we're talking about traumatic situations.
I already have a appeal date, and I think it's December 2049.
I already know that's his – I'm sorry, not appeal, his parole. His parole here.
(12:33):
Oh, wow.
Because it's New York State and he got 25 to life, not life without parole.
Oh, God.
So in 25 years, I'll be this old man standing there like,
hi, everyone, still fucking here.
Yeah.
Let's be smart.
Don't let them out.
Right. And they won't.
I have chills.
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. I'm almost three years into this,
(12:56):
and I'm able to talk about this like this without completely falling apart,
but I can't believe what I'm saying.
Like at times, it hits me even as I'm talking to you right now,
like, whoa, like that's true.
Like what I just said is actually true.
Like that's somehow now my life.
And that's hard, especially when you had plans or you thought you had plans.
(13:21):
Yeah.
Me and my brother's kids were supposed to grow up together,
and the cousins and the back and forths of the families,
me and his houses and all of this stuff.
And you know, right?
Like you can appreciate that and it's just there.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's changed like me, Kendall, like wanting kids.
Like I just always thought like I could drop off my kids at my sister's place.
(13:44):
She loved kids. I was like, I could do that. My mom would help.
Like my dad.
And now it's like the village is gone.
I would never get to meet my sister's kids because they never existed.
So it's just like this whole other thing where it's like your life is just like
flips upside down and it's really hard to let go of how you dreamed your life was
going to be and then be okay with what it looks like now.
(14:06):
Like being happy with what it looks like now.
That's like, that's the part that I'm working on now currently is like,
how do I be happy in this new life that looks nothing like the life that I
wanted? And that's a really hard place to be and still working on.
And it's been longer, you know, long for me.
And I don't say long because it feels long and short.
It's like long to say it out loud, but the pain is still always there.
(14:30):
But yeah, it's to get to that place. And you're still, I'd say,
like I feel like all grief is new, but like going through your experience,
that is, I don't know.
It's hard to even get to that part where you're like really mourning when you
have to deal with like legal issues and that and anger.
Have you noticed your grief evolving at all?
Is this like coming up to three years because you did just like start your
(14:53):
TikTok like recently, you just started sharing about it.
Recently. And something that me and Kendall have noticed is like,
it was unexpected part of starting a podcast was we have really been
processing our own grief in a deeper way than we thought we would because of
this podcast and having to talk about all these different things.
Have you noticed that with your grief and like actually sitting down to talk
(15:14):
about it and creating TikToks about it in videos and sharing?
Yeah, for sure. Like I said, I started that account.
I mean, I started it for, it's kind of funny.
I was like, I was talking with my sister who should be here right now because
she is awesome and she can talk about this stuff so eloquently and she will be
one day she'll be kind of joining me, I think.
But we were talking about this and I was like, you know, what for?
(15:37):
I just want to like, we talk so well when she's here, she's in the city.
So we don't get to have those face to face all the time.
And she actually the one who brought up like, should we just do like a podcast?
Like we were up to like four in the morning talking and we were like,
I wish we had that conversation recorded.
Like, oh my God, that was such a good conversation.
And she kind of joked about it.
(15:58):
And I was like, I was joking with her that like what you guys are doing right now,
you're on camera, you're talking, right?
This is foreign to me.
So I was like, I was joking with her like, Lexi, I would hate that.
I would hate the sound of my voice.
I would hate looking at myself on camera.
I would hate it.
And she was like, well, why don't you just, you know, why don't you just go start
like a little private TikTok?
(16:19):
No, no one you even know is on TikTok.
It's not like Instagram where it's just your friends.
You could just send, put it out there and practice like hitting record and then
hitting publish.
And I said, that sounds terrifying.
And it was, I was like so terrified to like, and I'm, I was talking to the
camera at first, like, like it's live TV or something.
(16:41):
And I'm like, so nervous to mess up my friend.
And you're just, you're talking at your phone right now, like calm down.
So at first it was an exercise and like, can we just be comfortable in front of
a camera and then what are you going to talk about?
Well, how about the thing that is on my mind 24 seven?
Cause I have a lot of thoughts on it.
So that's the easiest thing to like commit to like do a video every day or
(17:05):
almost every day and just do it and no one will ever see it and it's fine.
And then by the time her and I start our little podcast, I'll be comfortable
doing it.
And that's where it started.
But yeah, you know, what's been crazy is reading other people's stories in the
comments.
That's what's been really crazy.
Cause first of all, I thought no one, no one would even see these videos.
(17:27):
And second, you know, the number of like bereaved parents that lost kids under
the age of like 15, like those stories, like the, the, it's just, it really
kind of hit me.
And it, I think what it helped me do is put in perspective, like just
perspective, just end right there.
(17:49):
Like it helped me put everything in perspective, like man, like would I want
that?
No.
You know, I have a one year old now.
I can't even imagine.
And then, and then it makes you remember like, oh yeah, I'm also having to
grieve my parents, watching my parents have to go through this.
My sister-in-law think, you know, that's a whole separate thing she's going
(18:11):
through.
It was so complex and it starts to, you know, kind of, I can put myself in
other people's shoes a little bit better, especially when you have that number
of stories being shared with you.
You can really like, wow, like the perspective I've gotten, I think has been
very helpful.
And lastly, like the fact that any human being on earth has watched some
(18:33):
stupid video that I put on social media and said like, wow, I needed to hear
this today or like that, like, thank you so much.
Like totally worth it.
Had no expectation of that in any way.
And that has made everything worth it.
And I always preach purpose because if you don't have any kind of purpose
after a significant loss, that's when you start going down, I think, bad
(18:58):
roads.
And if nothing else, like it feels good that anybody has gotten anything out
of anything that I've ever had to say.
It's a little bit of purpose there and it's been helpful.
I don't want to make it sound like we're trying to find a silver lining in
this because I don't know how you could ever find a silver lining in this
situation.
Me and Rachel are like, you know, there's no point in trying to make something
(19:21):
sound good and horrible situations.
Like you said, it's just better to acknowledge that they suck.
It sucks.
Yep.
Yeah.
That being said though, has there been any insights or lessons in this
journey that you've been on that is going to impact you or do you think that
could impart itself onto other people listening to your story, even here on
(19:45):
the podcast or even from your followers on TikTok?
Yeah.
I guess, I mean, the biggest thing is that you literally, if this happened in
my life to my brother, you literally have, you do not know what's around the
corner, period.
Yeah.
Like don't think you're immune from anything because I keep saying it, I'm
(20:09):
just a guy, man.
Like my brother's not, you know, slinging drugs on the corner and putting
himself in situations where like, oops, something happened.
Like that's not in any way, shape or form.
So like if you can live your life a little bit more like that, understanding
like nothing is guaranteed.
I mean, you lose anybody important in your life and you know that pretty
(20:31):
quickly.
But if something this like out of this world can happen to like my family, my
brother, like I wouldn't discount anything happening to anybody at any time
anywhere in the world.
So maybe that helps somebody like gives them like the kick in the ass they
need to like start that thing or reach out to somebody that I can't tell you
(20:53):
how many people in my comments or in the videos have said like I was on, I
hadn't been talking to my sister.
I didn't talk to my sister for the last year and then I found out she died,
you know, things like that.
And you're like, well, hopefully that gives you perspective and those people's
story will give other people a perspective.
We're like, well, maybe that was, maybe that was not necessary then.
(21:14):
Maybe we should drop those egos and just, I don't know, live with a better
perspective on life and not be so caught up in our own shit and our own egos.
And there's really, if you think about anybody you've ever had arguments with
that lasted longer than five minutes, it probably was stupid.
Like it probably didn't need to happen.
(21:37):
And how would you feel if, you know, whatever you enter the, enter the blank
there?
So I would hope at least that.
Yeah. When you said it could happen to anybody, I would hear stories of people
that like lost multiple family members and I'd always see that and be like, oh
my gosh, I would never survive that.
(21:58):
I had no idea how people do that.
I'd feel like this like huge, just like pain, but I never ever associated like
that could happen to me.
It was always like that happened to somebody else and it was a very tragic
thing and that would never happen to me.
And then it happened to me.
And then I was like, what the hell?
Like, and sometimes I question like, how am I still going or like, how am I
(22:20):
still doing this or how am I even trying to be positive?
And it is like what you said, like you just don't know what could happen and
you living your life and you feel like everything is like great.
And then one day it just really stops.
And like for me it was a succession of things, but it's like, you just really
don't know what cards are going to be dealt.
You don't know what random things going to happen.
(22:42):
So like, be nice to people, be kind, put something good out there.
Hopefully you'll make an impact on people by doing something.
And I think that's where me and Kendall really got to with the podcast is like,
hopefully our horrible experiences will help somebody else figure out something,
process something, find their passion, do something, feel less alone.
Like if we can talk about it and help turn this really ugly thing into something
(23:06):
positive, then that's something that we want to do.
But yeah, it definitely is like a journey to get there, but you just never know.
Like you can say it's going to happen to anyone else until it happens to you.
And then you're just shocked.
You're like, I don't know how that happened.
I think that's how most of us live.
I think everybody thinks like that happens out in the world, that happens to
(23:30):
other people.
Like I have this great family.
Of course that's not us.
Look at us.
Living with that expectation.
I'm not saying walk around expecting everyone you love to die tomorrow, but
living with the expectations that I had for what the rest of my life would have
looked like or should have looked like.
(23:51):
And then this thing happened.
That separation from like the reality of what it is now and those expectations,
that's painful.
That adds like a lot of pain to an already painful situation.
Like the thought of having a kid to me was almost something that I only cared to
(24:12):
do if my brother was also having kids because of that connection, of that
future.
And now I'm in this situation where one day I'm going to have to explain to my
son who will never know his Uncle Philip what happened.
Like that is not the future I envisioned.
That is painful.
So again, you don't walk around expecting these bad things to happen.
(24:35):
But if it gives you the perspective of like, be grateful.
Be grateful for what you have every single day and the people who are in your
life because something will happen one day to most of us.
You will lose someone.
I think it's the simplest thing we can do is just be grateful for the people who
we love in our lives all the time.
(24:56):
Yeah, just knowing Rachel in my life and I have a younger brother and sister as
well.
And they know Rachel through the podcast and my brother has met her before.
But even just knowing Rachel and her story, I have seen this transition in our
relationship with each other and that we don't take each other for granted
anymore because knowing Rachel and your relationship with your sister Rachel,
(25:20):
that wow, it really can't just happen to any of us.
And I was like, it's going to be devastating.
The day comes and we're going to have to lose one of us.
Like we talk about it openly now with each other and that we got to, we got to
be prepared for that in some sense, but we don't take each other for granted
anymore.
I feel like when we have fights, we are fixing them by the end of it.
We're not just having pointless fights to fight with each other.
(25:43):
There's so much more love flowing between the siblings just because I know
Rachel and just because Rachel is like brave enough to share her story so other
people can take that impact into their life.
And I know, I know just knowing Rachel and by proxy, her sister has left a
positive impact on me and my siblings.
(26:05):
Kendall always tries to make you cry.
I'm over here like crying every like nine seconds.
I mean, that's powerful though, right?
Like that's what you just said is what I hope that someone could take from
hearing my situation.
And I'm sure everyone who's experienced an extreme loss also hopes that because
you realize like, man, if you've got it good right now, don't take that for
(26:29):
granted.
Like, and if you think about somebody, you know, I've gotten really good at is
connecting with like lifelong friends who like, like, you know, I was friends
with through like middle school, high school, and then during college, you
kind of, you're like at different places and then all of a sudden we're adults
and you're like, what the hell happened?
If I think about a friend, I have reconnected with more of like my middle
school and high school friends who I love dearly and they're lifelong friends.
(26:52):
They always will be the kind of friends that you get together and it's like you
haven't missed a beat.
If I think about them, I text them.
If I, you know, like I just text them something funny or whatever.
If they pop in my head, I let them know.
And I'm grateful for that for sure because those relationships, like I'm not
searching for anything.
(27:13):
I've had it the whole time and I just neglected it because of life or whatever
bullshit, you know, I'm telling myself.
But these people, like I love them.
And just because I haven't seen them in a while or, you know, they moved to
across the country or whatever does not mean I should have a pass in like
pushing that away from me when it actually means something to me.
(27:34):
So I've gotten much better at that and I'm thankful for that.
I love that.
Also, I feel like you never know when someone might just need someone.
They just might need to hear that someone's thinking of them.
Like everyone's going through their own battles and their own things.
I always hear people are like, oh, I should have text them or, you know,
something happens and I wish I reached out.
And it's like then reach out.
(27:55):
Just like just do it because like you never know who just needed to hear
that or like reconnecting with someone or finding a new friend might be the
thing that just really helps them get to a different place in their life or
like fill something that they were really missing.
And life is all about connections and the people that you meet and the
friendships.
So it's like that's what's important.
That's what you get to walk away with.
Like no one's walking away with money, whatever their house is.
(28:19):
Like you walk away with the relationships and the memories.
So I think that's a really amazing thing that you're doing.
And I try to do more too.
It's like that's what's important.
I had to remind myself that you get lost in it sometimes, but I think that's
important to like always keep in mind.
So you talked about reconnecting with friends, but have you,
and since you just started kind of building this grief community,
(28:40):
do you feel something different as you're connecting to other people that
are grieving and like talking about their grief openly and creating that
space?
Cause me and Kendall just joined our grief support group last year and we
became friends last year.
And now we're so close.
Like we talk all the time and we didn't have that till last year.
Like we really just started building that grief community and these new
(29:02):
friendships.
So have you started to kind of lean into making more grief friends besides
us now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's,
it's funny because my initial reaction to that is I feel like I have to
remind people in like my DMS and stuff, basically what I'm going to steal
your guys's tagline.
Like I'm not a professional.
(29:23):
I'm like a professional griever.
Like,
Yeah.
I'm not your therapist.
Yeah.
I'm so glad that you're getting something helpful out of what I'm putting
out there, but like it's part selfish and you know,
it's part, it's part, I'm, I'm healing.
I am, I am, I am on a very long journey myself.
And I like to think that, you know, all of the thinking that I have done
(29:46):
about this and you know, years of therapy and talking with my sister,
who's just an unbelievable person and resource, you know,
I just put out kind of my thoughts.
I'm just putting out my thoughts.
I'm just a person putting out my thoughts with a unique perspective,
like all of our perspectives are.
I can't understand either of your perspectives.
I can't, I just can't.
(30:07):
I really can't.
And it's just that everybody has that.
Everybody has that perspective, which means everybody has that voice.
And I was stupid enough one night to just hit record and then hit publish.
And like that, that's just what's happening.
But yeah, I mean, there have been,
there have been a few people that I consider friends who have,
(30:28):
I've met through this process,
not everybody who's gone through something necessarily like this,
but they have their own unique kind of thing that they bring to the table.
And it's been helpful.
I think we've been helpful to each other, that kind of thing.
But yeah, it's kind of funny.
I think about the first time I saw you guys is we're not professionals.
We're professional.
(30:49):
I was like, yeah, that's a hundred, a hundred percent.
I think that should be like a tagline on anybody talking about this stuff that
isn't a therapist, just to remind you, like I'm not a therapist.
Yeah.
I'm professional on my own pain, but not yours.
Yeah.
Basically.
I'm a therapist.
Yeah.
And I'm happy.
I mean, if you're asking for it, I can,
I can give you my thoughts on the situation, but you know,
I'll go to the bank over it, I guess.
(31:11):
Yeah.
So like, I like how you've mentioned,
you're just one guy with a very unique and tragic circumstance.
And I don't want to say that you're speaking on behalf of a community that
has also gone through very similar situations that you have.
But as we know,
we're in the podcast space and if you're listening to a podcast,
you definitely know that true crime is like always the top podcast people are
(31:33):
listening to is some like weird human intrigue in us.
Like this weird morbidity that people like to listen to these crime stories.
And like you said, you're just a guy, but now you're like, you're a part of one.
And I, I thought it'd be interesting for you to share your perspective on this
and that, you know, I hope,
(31:54):
I hope that no one takes your story and mangles it or disrespects it,
but this is your life.
This is your brother's life.
Like this is his life and reputation.
And how do you,
how do you feel about that and is there anything you want to comment in that
regard?
Yeah.
(32:15):
Never, I was never a fan of that type of content myself before.
I'm not less of a fan of it today.
But I don't think there's anything wrong in telling these stories.
The thing is they're so almost unbelievable,
which I get because I'm living in it and it's still sometimes so surreal.
(32:38):
I can't even put it in the words,
but then it's almost like easy to remove it from and it's like,
it's just this abstract thing over here and I can listen to it and get
this thing out of my head and just like,
I was like,
it's so hard to believe that I'm actually getting out of it,
out of it and move on with my life.
And it's easy to forget that like,
you're literally talking about like a person or people.
(33:00):
And you know, when you see things like there's weird things on the internet,
man,
like people's people's favorite serial killers, right?
Like,
Listen,
you should feel stupid.
You should feel stupid for saying that.
I don't know what else to say.
Really not.
Like that's not, that's, that's like not okay.
It's not, it's not normal behavior as much as it seems like it is.
(33:23):
And it's not just podcasts, right?
We had to literally beg this woman from Dateline NBC to not do this story.
Here's the thing, like I almost want to scream this from the rooftops, from the mountains
to the world.
I want everybody to know.
But like that's like, I feel like our job because you know, Dateline, they do a good
(33:46):
job and they would say, you know, we're not, they said we're not entertainment, we're,
we're news.
And it's like, listen, I'm not an idiot.
Like I know what Dateline NBC is.
Like I know what it is.
And they also want to give a voice to the other side.
They want to let this person talk.
And then that immediately becomes, well, absolutely not then because not in any world would I
(34:11):
want some program out there where maybe he gets on camera and is like, I didn't do it.
I really, you know, I did, because that's what he would say.
I mean, he hasn't admitted guilt to anything.
So a world where there's even one person on earth that has sympathy towards this human
being does not exist for me.
And I will do whatever I can to keep it that way for the rest of my life.
(34:34):
It's as simple as that.
So, you know, people get their entertainment in all kinds of ways.
I'm not a huge fan.
My sister and I actually, I know, I feel like I've sworn a couple of times.
I hope that's okay.
No, I swear.
Okay, good.
So my sister and I joked when we were talking about this podcast idea, the idea for the
name of our first podcast was the Fuck True Crime Podcasts podcast.
(34:58):
And we'd be the other side of it and we would just berate the hosts.
We berate the stories.
We would just rip them apart and let them just give up.
I think that needs to exist.
Yeah, right.
Like how I'm surprised it doesn't, I guess.
But yeah, just rip them apart because why not?
(35:19):
I don't know.
If you're making your living off of people's sadness, like I'm allowed to make my living
off of making fun of you, I guess.
Give a voice to the other side.
But yeah, I don't know.
We'll see where we go with that.
I think that should exist.
And also I think those crime podcasts have really desensitized people on death overall
and you see it on social media.
(35:41):
You see it on all these stories and it's like, it's not just like that person.
It's like their families.
Like you just, when you experience it, you know how much one death really means.
And it's like, and if you experienced that, you're not going to be commenting something
hurtful and so rude to someone that passed or is going through something hard because
you know that it's so difficult.
(36:02):
And I think that's the hard part is like, it becomes more like salacious and like marketing
and just this whole thing rather than like this is someone's actual life and their actual
story.
And if that was like something so much of my sister happened, I would be so like, I
would probably, I don't know what I do, but I wouldn't be nice about it for sure because
(36:22):
I would be so protective over how my sister was talked about, how the story was talked
about.
I would definitely be so particular.
And our friend, Brittany Spivey, who's who at this point already be, have been on our
podcast.
She says, make your grief pay you.
That's like something that she says.
And in that way it's like, your grief is your pain and it's your story.
(36:43):
Like figure out a way for it to like pay you back.
And your story is, I don't say like making money off your story, but it's like, if someone
is going to make money off a story, if anyone should, it's going to be that.
It should be you.
That's, that's what I was going to jump in before you said that.
Like it's not about the money, but are you kidding me?
Like in what world do you think you're going to make any money?
(37:04):
If you're going to do a story on anyone in my family, we're going to get total and final
say in what it looks like and everything that you put in it.
And anything that comes from it is either going to my family foundation that we've
created in my brother's name that has raised over $300,000.
That's amazing.
Yeah, something, but it's not going to you.
(37:27):
It's not going to some fucking stranger on the internet.
Like that's unacceptable.
Like in every way, shape and form, like, and everyone should at least, even if you're like
not going to stop watching your true crime podcast, if you hear that being said, you
should at least go, yeah, sure.
I, I I'm on board with that.
Strangers shouldn't be making money off a story that had nothing to do with it.
It's not some, it's not a fiction book that you wrote that you want the rights to.
(37:51):
This is a story with people's lives.
In what world do you think you deserve a dime from that happening to other people?
That's my problem with it.
That's fair.
Yeah.
And that's why your podcast should exist.
Cause I think that's a really good counter.
I think that's a counter, that's like culture shift.
Like we need some reckoning with the way that culture is shifting where it's like, I don't
(38:15):
even see humanity in it anymore.
Like the human part is getting so taken, taking a back seat into everything.
And it's like, we're all humans and we're not connecting on the basic human things.
We're connecting on all these other things that just making people just so disconnected.
So I definitely think like that would be a great take and perspective of just like, what
(38:38):
is it actually like?
Like, what is that actual feeling and who should be making money off of this?
Cause people are making money.
Like all the podcasts, all the top true crime are like, they're so rich.
They're making so much money off of this.
And it's like, who should be?
It should definitely be you.
It should definitely be families like yours for sure.
Yeah.
It's just like a very interesting time where like that is so popular and everyone sees
(39:01):
it as dollar signs and not just human things that have happened that are horrible.
Yeah.
And it's like, who's worse, is it the people that see that potential and then go and create
that podcast or is it the audience who doesn't see what's wrong with that?
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
You know, is it capitalism or is it just human nature?
(39:23):
That's wrong.
I don't know.
I'm not sure, but something, something's wrong with it.
I had listened to true crime for a little bit because I like like law and order, but
I was just like, I don't like listening to these stories.
Like speaking about it in a way that still doesn't feel sincere.
It's just like, I always see it as like, I'm listening to the actual family story.
And it's like, it just never seems like it's conveyed the way that I feel like it should.
(39:48):
Yeah.
And it just like, to me, such a delicate thing.
I mean, just they're going to have to add just the act of adding drama to a situation
to a story like that.
You're like, you know, that's, that's not easy.
That's not.
There are a couple of, there was some YouTube channel that I don't know if they have any
follow.
(40:08):
I don't know what they are, but like very quickly, you know, we, we, we saw, and I,
I tried to message and ask them to take it down.
They put together their own like kind of version of like a true crime podcast slash Dateline
NBC story with it all.
But like, you know, that's like you said, like that's my brother's name.
Like that's my sister in law's name.
(40:29):
You think she wants that out there for the rest of her life?
Because if this isn't hard enough that she's going through this, it's not, it's, it's,
these are, these are people and that shit has consequences.
Like people, I don't know where they get off on finding like something in themselves that
says I have the right, just because it's public domain.
I have the right to also go and sensationalize this and see if I can make money off it.
(40:51):
I don't know where that comes from in people.
I can't imagine doing that ever in my life before.
I can't imagine it.
But like you're saying, if someone's going to do anything with the story, it's the people
involved directly.
That's the only fair thing.
I definitely agree.
So we'll be waiting for your podcast.
We're going to start working on it.
Yeah.
We're going to put the pressure that we want to see that happen.
(41:13):
So we want to end this on a positive note and thinking about Philip.
So what is one thing or just many things that you want your brother to be remembered by?
I think the easiest thing to say is how many people loved him.
I mean, it's overwhelming.
It was over.
(41:33):
His services were overwhelming.
There was like 1500 people or some insane number that walked through.
Everybody loved him.
That's who he was.
He was like the best.
He was awesome.
He was just the best and he made other people feel good, which is why he had that effect
on them.
It was better if Philip was there, like period to me and everybody else.
(41:58):
Like if he was there, like my life partner in crime was at the party with me or out at
whatever the social gap, it was better.
I'm like, okay, good.
I got it.
I can be me.
I got my brothers here.
But I think he did that to a lot of people because he was really good at very quickly
like connecting with you.
He was very good at that.
He was just one of those people.
Super easy to get along with, super easy to talk to.
(42:20):
So you immediately felt like you knew him.
So like from then on you were like, oh, Philip's here.
Like this is better.
And he did that to everybody.
It didn't matter if it was his friend group, his work group.
It didn't matter wherever he was.
And everybody said that on their own as they walked through the services, as the years
have gone on.
That is the story of my brother.
(42:41):
Like really a special, special person.
Yeah.
It sounds like the world was a better place with him in it.
100%.
100%.
First, we want to thank you so much for spending so much time with us this evening and just
enlightening us to who Philip is and his legacy that's going to carry on.
Obviously, I've been very emotional like crying through this whole thing, but we want our
(43:03):
listeners if they want to connect with you or learn more, how can they find you?
Where should they connect with you on?
Can you give handles, stuff like that?
Yeah.
Well, it's January that we're filming this.
So depending on when it comes out, there could or could not be a TikTok.
I don't know.
Yeah.
That's where I started uploading videos.
But I'm at Brendan Shaw Grief there, but then I have a website slash newsletter, sign
(43:30):
up at the same address, BrendanShawGrief.com.
I have the same handle on Instagram as like a backup.
I have yet to put anything there.
It's just kind of there as a placeholder.
If TikTok does go away, I'll probably move stuff over there, but I try to keep it pretty
consistent across.
So if anybody wants to pop in, I'll continue to try and put out that kind of content.
And if it helps anybody out there, that's more than I could have asked for.
(43:52):
Well, thank you so much.
We really appreciate having you on.
It was something that we realized like season one, we really talked about a lot of our grief
things and things that we learned, but we thought season two would be a good time to
like expand our knowledge on grief and really hear other people's stories and their experiences.
One thing that we talk a lot about like traumatic grief and not having any experience with that,
(44:15):
it's a very different grief.
So everyone is different.
Everyone, like you said, like you don't know our experience, like we don't know yours.
Like we don't know how that feels.
And I think it's important to hear other group stories and then learn from it and then not
compare it, but just like learn and kind of expand your knowledge as we are professional
grievers, not professional professionals.
(44:36):
That is absolutely correct.
Yes.
Well, thank you so much, Brennan, for joining us.
We loved and also heartbreaks with hearing your story, but thank you so much for sharing
with us.
We loved hearing about Philip and we're excited to see like the legacy you continue to share
about him and with the foundation and everything as well.
(44:58):
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is part two of Brendan Shaw's interview.
(00:03):
The second half of this two-part episode
takes us into the toughest conversation
we've ever had on this podcast.
Our goal was to spark meaningful dialogue
about the weight of traumatic loss,
also honoring the depth of pain without sensationalizing it.
We're incredibly grateful to Brendan Shaw for his bravery,
sharing his story of losing his brother.
This conversation also highlights
(00:24):
an injustice his morning family's face
in the court system today.
As you listen, we ask you to approach this conversation
with the same care and respect we brought to it.
[♪ music playing, fades out.
[♪ music ends.
Welcome to the Two Girls with Grief podcast,
(00:46):
the podcast where we share our real and raw experiences with grief.
Whether it's tears or laughter or maybe a little bit of both,
we're here to figure it out in real time.
We are your hosts, I'm Kendall Rogers,
and I'm Rachel Dwyer.
And while we're not professionals, we are professional grievers.
Every Tuesday we bring you honest conversations
(01:06):
that break down the stigma of grief,
one episode at a time,
because no one should have to grieve alone.
So grab a cup of coffee, settle in,
and let's navigate this journey together.
I think what's interesting about your story in particular
is that when I look at my own grief with my own dad,
I experienced a new sense of anger
(01:29):
that I had never experienced before.
But I had nowhere to funnel it or channel it.
It was more of an existential sense of why would my dad die?
How could this happen to him?
He's so young type of thing.
Whereas I, as an external person looking into and hearing your story,
(01:54):
you do have someone to be angry with.
I imagine my anger and you have this deeper anger underneath.
Do you find that could change your perspective on your life entirely?
Or are there other things involved in all of this
that has changed your perspective on life and relationships and things?
(02:15):
Yeah, that's something I'm not that far into this whole thing still.
April is three years. I'm hoping that changes.
I don't think I see it changing a ton given the nature.
You hear people who lose somebody to a drunk driver,
(02:37):
and then years later, for their own healing, forgive that person.
They understand you're a person, you made a mistake, and they can forgive them.
That anger, I guarantee, is there at first.
This does not have that.
That's a struggle.
I can feel that pretty often.
(02:59):
I think the way I've noticed it in my life,
and I have to work on it all the time, is my patience.
It's affected my patience with little, insignificant things or small talk.
Or if someone's complaining about nothing, just that kind of thing,
(03:20):
I can feel myself get, and I know that that's where it's coming from.
I also try to give myself a little bit of grace with that,
because what else am I supposed to feel about that?
I try not to fight it.
You're too angry about this. You don't need to be angry.
No, I think it's okay that that's in there, as long as I'm aware of it,
(03:41):
and I am managing it, but this is my brother.
It's kind of interesting to see the differences between how the males in my life
and the females in my life that are very close to this situation,
the differences in what they've focused on to this day,
where their energy and thoughts are.
(04:04):
At some point, you have to remember we are animals,
and there is a primal nature to this type of situation,
where it's like my initial thing is, you know, round the troops,
and what are we doing here? That's where I go,
and the girls do not in any way.
(04:25):
They're obviously unbelievably angry and sad and all that,
but it is interesting to watch that play out.
Me and Kendall talk about, as well, you rarely see men talking about grief,
and it's more so women talking about it,
and I feel like when there are men talking about grief,
it's almost like a phenomenon where everyone's curious,
how do you guys deal with it?
(04:46):
Because we even posed the questions once, and we're like,
how do men grieve? Because I don't see them in our support groups,
you don't see them in all these spaces. It's very rare.
It's like 98% women, and then there's a few men,
and responses were like, they don't.
They go to drugs or alcohol, or they just get angry,
and it's such an interesting thing where it's like,
(05:07):
I never saw it as something so different, but I guess it really is.
When you try to look in the spaces or hear from other people,
me and my brother are so different with how we deal with it, for sure.
So I have that experience, but it's interesting for you to bring that up,
because I do think that there is such a stark difference,
and I think a lot of men would benefit from talking about it more,
(05:29):
because it's obviously a hard thing if you just kept it in.
And I've seen you say, even watching my videos,
you feel better actually letting it out and speaking about it,
and we've shared that too. It's better to let it out,
but maybe by you speaking about it, maybe that is slowly helping the tide,
where men are realizing grief is a hard thing.
(05:51):
Maybe we shouldn't just drink or something.
Maybe talking about it is actually the best way to handle it.
Well, it's interesting. I have my own personal view on that,
is that if men who need to be grieving aren't,
and they think it's because of any sort of misplaced thought
that they need to be tough or strong,
(06:14):
but then they go down a route, like you're saying,
where they just disassociate or they drink or they turn to some other thing,
to me, that's super weak. That's weakness.
That is not strength in any way, shape, or form,
because you are literally not addressing.
What I'm dealing with on a day-to-day basis would be so much easier
(06:35):
if I just maybe went to heroin. I don't know.
If I could just completely turn my brain off, that would be really awesome.
I see that as complete weakness, and it's not helping anybody.
It's not helping anyone in your life by not addressing it.
It's some sort of misplaced manly thing for anyone who thinks that.
(07:01):
I'm not saying everybody thinks that,
but if you do know that that's actually you're running.
You're running from something really difficult,
the hardest thing maybe we ever will deal with,
and that does not show me strength whatsoever.
I definitely think it's the hardest thing we ever go through.
I can't think of anything harder than losing the people that you love.
(07:23):
That is the hardest thing.
But going off of that, we talked about it a little bit,
but what do you wish people understood about grief when it's tied to a traumatic loss?
I just feel like it is so different than what me and Kendall experience
that I feel like there needs to be a different way that it's addressed or thought about.
(07:45):
Yeah. This won't be helpful,
but what everyone should know about a situation like this is that you cannot understand.
You cannot. You will not. You cannot.
I can confidently say that I lived on this earth for 37 years
as a normal person with a normal life.
(08:09):
If you had asked me, I could have gotten a college degree in this.
I could have sat in classes eight hours a day for four years,
and someone could have tried to give me this, and I'm telling you, never.
Not even remotely close.
And that's okay.
If everybody just accepts you don't understand and therefore act accordingly.
(08:36):
Don't tell me you understand, first of all.
But even other things like when people talk about this kind of thing,
we have this culture of these TV shows and people talk about this stuff,
and it's like if these people understood, if they could step in my shoes for just a minute,
they would change their tune pretty quickly, I think. I hope.
Yeah, this is some of the worst pain anybody could ever feel.
(09:00):
For it to be in your situation such a different source
and then for it to manifest in such a different way,
I think a lot of people can relate to losing someone in a medical sense
and having lost people to illness.
In fact, I think a lot of people in our support group have lost people that way.
In some sense, I hate to say this, it's nice to know I have a friend, Rachel,
(09:25):
and that we share that similar experience.
But my God, yeah, you really can't put yourself,
even as Rachel and I were getting ready for this episode,
she and I just were like, I cannot imagine going into a court case,
having to show up and relive everything all over again.
For someone who might be listening right now, who is in a similar bucket as you
(09:49):
and the similar type of grief and traumatic loss, do you have advice for them?
Do you have something that you would want to share with them that maybe you find profound?
Are you even there yet?
No, I know.
You don't have to answer.
I do. I wish I had some magic bullet.
But to be honest, I don't think it's all that different from what you guys would say.
(10:12):
I don't.
Maybe the timeframe is going to be a little bit different if we're talking about legal stuff and all that,
if you're in that kind of a situation.
Yes, that will delay things, that will complicate things.
One minute you'll be missing the person, the next you'll be in disbelief,
the next you can't believe you're sitting in a court room talking to DAs.
There's lots of that.
(10:33):
But really, it comes down to the same stuff that anybody who loses someone significant would tell other people.
It's day to day.
In the beginning, minute to minute, it's just – and it's not easy, and it's going to be hard,
whether you're a man or a woman, if you're in a situation like that.
The more I was around people, I guess the better, being alone.
(11:01):
Even still, I say it all the time, for some reason driving in the car, if I'm in the car alone,
that does something to our brains where we're running at a low level of operation
because we have to be able to drive our car and pay attention.
But then it shuts off all of the unnecessary noise and just allows the loudest voice to come in.
(11:24):
That's what I think, and that's always super, super hard for me.
If I'm alone in certain situations, you never know where your thoughts are going to go.
So you have to get a hold of them a little bit and recognize that you can move on from that thought.
Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to go,
now let's dwell 45 minutes on that and dig even deeper.
(11:48):
It's hard to do, and at first, potentially impossible,
but with time, it becomes a little bit easier to go.
There's that familiar fucking voice that I have to – there it is.
There's that thing, and it's not new anymore, and because it's not new,
it doesn't hold that same strength on you.
(12:10):
So yeah, it's a process. I mean, it'll be a process for the rest of my life.
This is not something that will ever go away. You guys know that as well as I do.
In this case, we're talking about traumatic situations.
I already have a appeal date, and I think it's December 2049.
I already know that's his – I'm sorry, not appeal, his parole. His parole here.
(12:33):
Oh, wow.
Because it's New York State and he got 25 to life, not life without parole.
Oh, God.
So in 25 years, I'll be this old man standing there like,
hi, everyone, still fucking here.
Yeah.
Let's be smart.
Don't let them out.
Right. And they won't.
I have chills.
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. I'm almost three years into this,
(12:56):
and I'm able to talk about this like this without completely falling apart,
but I can't believe what I'm saying.
Like at times, it hits me even as I'm talking to you right now,
like, whoa, like that's true.
Like what I just said is actually true.
Like that's somehow now my life.
And that's hard, especially when you had plans or you thought you had plans.
(13:21):
Yeah.
Me and my brother's kids were supposed to grow up together,
and the cousins and the back and forths of the families,
me and his houses and all of this stuff.
And you know, right?
Like you can appreciate that and it's just there.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's changed like me, Kendall, like wanting kids.
Like I just always thought like I could drop off my kids at my sister's place.
(13:44):
She loved kids. I was like, I could do that. My mom would help.
Like my dad.
And now it's like the village is gone.
I would never get to meet my sister's kids because they never existed.
So it's just like this whole other thing where it's like your life is just like
flips upside down and it's really hard to let go of how you dreamed your life was
going to be and then be okay with what it looks like now.
(14:06):
Like being happy with what it looks like now.
That's like, that's the part that I'm working on now currently is like,
how do I be happy in this new life that looks nothing like the life that I
wanted? And that's a really hard place to be and still working on.
And it's been longer, you know, long for me.
And I don't say long because it feels long and short.
It's like long to say it out loud, but the pain is still always there.
(14:30):
But yeah, it's to get to that place. And you're still, I'd say,
like I feel like all grief is new, but like going through your experience,
that is, I don't know.
It's hard to even get to that part where you're like really mourning when you
have to deal with like legal issues and that and anger.
Have you noticed your grief evolving at all?
Is this like coming up to three years because you did just like start your
(14:53):
TikTok like recently, you just started sharing about it.
Recently. And something that me and Kendall have noticed is like,
it was unexpected part of starting a podcast was we have really been
processing our own grief in a deeper way than we thought we would because of
this podcast and having to talk about all these different things.
Have you noticed that with your grief and like actually sitting down to talk
(15:14):
about it and creating TikToks about it in videos and sharing?
Yeah, for sure. Like I said, I started that account.
I mean, I started it for, it's kind of funny.
I was like, I was talking with my sister who should be here right now because
she is awesome and she can talk about this stuff so eloquently and she will be
one day she'll be kind of joining me, I think.
But we were talking about this and I was like, you know, what for?
(15:37):
I just want to like, we talk so well when she's here, she's in the city.
So we don't get to have those face to face all the time.
And she actually the one who brought up like, should we just do like a podcast?
Like we were up to like four in the morning talking and we were like,
I wish we had that conversation recorded.
Like, oh my God, that was such a good conversation.
And she kind of joked about it.
(15:58):
And I was like, I was joking with her that like what you guys are doing right now,
you're on camera, you're talking, right?
This is foreign to me.
So I was like, I was joking with her like, Lexi, I would hate that.
I would hate the sound of my voice.
I would hate looking at myself on camera.
I would hate it.
And she was like, well, why don't you just, you know, why don't you just go start
like a little private TikTok?
(16:19):
No, no one you even know is on TikTok.
It's not like Instagram where it's just your friends.
You could just send, put it out there and practice like hitting record and then
hitting publish.
And I said, that sounds terrifying.
And it was, I was like so terrified to like, and I'm, I was talking to the
camera at first, like, like it's live TV or something.
(16:41):
And I'm like, so nervous to mess up my friend.
And you're just, you're talking at your phone right now, like calm down.
So at first it was an exercise and like, can we just be comfortable in front of
a camera and then what are you going to talk about?
Well, how about the thing that is on my mind 24 seven?
Cause I have a lot of thoughts on it.
So that's the easiest thing to like commit to like do a video every day or
(17:05):
almost every day and just do it and no one will ever see it and it's fine.
And then by the time her and I start our little podcast, I'll be comfortable
doing it.
And that's where it started.
But yeah, you know, what's been crazy is reading other people's stories in the
comments.
That's what's been really crazy.
Cause first of all, I thought no one, no one would even see these videos.
(17:27):
And second, you know, the number of like bereaved parents that lost kids under
the age of like 15, like those stories, like the, the, it's just, it really
kind of hit me.
And it, I think what it helped me do is put in perspective, like just
perspective, just end right there.
(17:49):
Like it helped me put everything in perspective, like man, like would I want
that?
No.
You know, I have a one year old now.
I can't even imagine.
And then, and then it makes you remember like, oh yeah, I'm also having to
grieve my parents, watching my parents have to go through this.
My sister-in-law think, you know, that's a whole separate thing she's going
(18:11):
through.
It was so complex and it starts to, you know, kind of, I can put myself in
other people's shoes a little bit better, especially when you have that number
of stories being shared with you.
You can really like, wow, like the perspective I've gotten, I think has been
very helpful.
And lastly, like the fact that any human being on earth has watched some
(18:33):
stupid video that I put on social media and said like, wow, I needed to hear
this today or like that, like, thank you so much.
Like totally worth it.
Had no expectation of that in any way.
And that has made everything worth it.
And I always preach purpose because if you don't have any kind of purpose
after a significant loss, that's when you start going down, I think, bad
(18:58):
roads.
And if nothing else, like it feels good that anybody has gotten anything out
of anything that I've ever had to say.
It's a little bit of purpose there and it's been helpful.
I don't want to make it sound like we're trying to find a silver lining in
this because I don't know how you could ever find a silver lining in this
situation.
Me and Rachel are like, you know, there's no point in trying to make something
(19:21):
sound good and horrible situations.
Like you said, it's just better to acknowledge that they suck.
It sucks.
Yep.
Yeah.
That being said though, has there been any insights or lessons in this
journey that you've been on that is going to impact you or do you think that
could impart itself onto other people listening to your story, even here on
(19:45):
the podcast or even from your followers on TikTok?
Yeah.
I guess, I mean, the biggest thing is that you literally, if this happened in
my life to my brother, you literally have, you do not know what's around the
corner, period.
Yeah.
Like don't think you're immune from anything because I keep saying it, I'm
(20:09):
just a guy, man.
Like my brother's not, you know, slinging drugs on the corner and putting
himself in situations where like, oops, something happened.
Like that's not in any way, shape or form.
So like if you can live your life a little bit more like that, understanding
like nothing is guaranteed.
I mean, you lose anybody important in your life and you know that pretty
(20:31):
quickly.
But if something this like out of this world can happen to like my family, my
brother, like I wouldn't discount anything happening to anybody at any time
anywhere in the world.
So maybe that helps somebody like gives them like the kick in the ass they
need to like start that thing or reach out to somebody that I can't tell you
(20:53):
how many people in my comments or in the videos have said like I was on, I
hadn't been talking to my sister.
I didn't talk to my sister for the last year and then I found out she died,
you know, things like that.
And you're like, well, hopefully that gives you perspective and those people's
story will give other people a perspective.
We're like, well, maybe that was, maybe that was not necessary then.
(21:14):
Maybe we should drop those egos and just, I don't know, live with a better
perspective on life and not be so caught up in our own shit and our own egos.
And there's really, if you think about anybody you've ever had arguments with
that lasted longer than five minutes, it probably was stupid.
Like it probably didn't need to happen.
(21:37):
And how would you feel if, you know, whatever you enter the, enter the blank
there?
So I would hope at least that.
Yeah. When you said it could happen to anybody, I would hear stories of people
that like lost multiple family members and I'd always see that and be like, oh
my gosh, I would never survive that.
(21:58):
I had no idea how people do that.
I'd feel like this like huge, just like pain, but I never ever associated like
that could happen to me.
It was always like that happened to somebody else and it was a very tragic
thing and that would never happen to me.
And then it happened to me.
And then I was like, what the hell?
Like, and sometimes I question like, how am I still going or like, how am I
(22:20):
still doing this or how am I even trying to be positive?
And it is like what you said, like you just don't know what could happen and
you living your life and you feel like everything is like great.
And then one day it just really stops.
And like for me it was a succession of things, but it's like, you just really
don't know what cards are going to be dealt.
You don't know what random things going to happen.
(22:42):
So like, be nice to people, be kind, put something good out there.
Hopefully you'll make an impact on people by doing something.
And I think that's where me and Kendall really got to with the podcast is like,
hopefully our horrible experiences will help somebody else figure out something,
process something, find their passion, do something, feel less alone.
Like if we can talk about it and help turn this really ugly thing into something
(23:06):
positive, then that's something that we want to do.
But yeah, it definitely is like a journey to get there, but you just never know.
Like you can say it's going to happen to anyone else until it happens to you.
And then you're just shocked.
You're like, I don't know how that happened.
I think that's how most of us live.
I think everybody thinks like that happens out in the world, that happens to
(23:30):
other people.
Like I have this great family.
Of course that's not us.
Look at us.
Living with that expectation.
I'm not saying walk around expecting everyone you love to die tomorrow, but
living with the expectations that I had for what the rest of my life would have
looked like or should have looked like.
(23:51):
And then this thing happened.
That separation from like the reality of what it is now and those expectations,
that's painful.
That adds like a lot of pain to an already painful situation.
Like the thought of having a kid to me was almost something that I only cared to
(24:12):
do if my brother was also having kids because of that connection, of that
future.
And now I'm in this situation where one day I'm going to have to explain to my
son who will never know his Uncle Philip what happened.
Like that is not the future I envisioned.
That is painful.
So again, you don't walk around expecting these bad things to happen.
(24:35):
But if it gives you the perspective of like, be grateful.
Be grateful for what you have every single day and the people who are in your
life because something will happen one day to most of us.
You will lose someone.
I think it's the simplest thing we can do is just be grateful for the people who
we love in our lives all the time.
(24:56):
Yeah, just knowing Rachel in my life and I have a younger brother and sister as
well.
And they know Rachel through the podcast and my brother has met her before.
But even just knowing Rachel and her story, I have seen this transition in our
relationship with each other and that we don't take each other for granted
anymore because knowing Rachel and your relationship with your sister Rachel,
(25:20):
that wow, it really can't just happen to any of us.
And I was like, it's going to be devastating.
The day comes and we're going to have to lose one of us.
Like we talk about it openly now with each other and that we got to, we got to
be prepared for that in some sense, but we don't take each other for granted
anymore.
I feel like when we have fights, we are fixing them by the end of it.
We're not just having pointless fights to fight with each other.
(25:43):
There's so much more love flowing between the siblings just because I know
Rachel and just because Rachel is like brave enough to share her story so other
people can take that impact into their life.
And I know, I know just knowing Rachel and by proxy, her sister has left a
positive impact on me and my siblings.
(26:05):
Kendall always tries to make you cry.
I'm over here like crying every like nine seconds.
I mean, that's powerful though, right?
Like that's what you just said is what I hope that someone could take from
hearing my situation.
And I'm sure everyone who's experienced an extreme loss also hopes that because
you realize like, man, if you've got it good right now, don't take that for
(26:29):
granted.
Like, and if you think about somebody, you know, I've gotten really good at is
connecting with like lifelong friends who like, like, you know, I was friends
with through like middle school, high school, and then during college, you
kind of, you're like at different places and then all of a sudden we're adults
and you're like, what the hell happened?
If I think about a friend, I have reconnected with more of like my middle
school and high school friends who I love dearly and they're lifelong friends.
(26:52):
They always will be the kind of friends that you get together and it's like you
haven't missed a beat.
If I think about them, I text them.
If I, you know, like I just text them something funny or whatever.
If they pop in my head, I let them know.
And I'm grateful for that for sure because those relationships, like I'm not
searching for anything.
(27:13):
I've had it the whole time and I just neglected it because of life or whatever
bullshit, you know, I'm telling myself.
But these people, like I love them.
And just because I haven't seen them in a while or, you know, they moved to
across the country or whatever does not mean I should have a pass in like
pushing that away from me when it actually means something to me.
(27:34):
So I've gotten much better at that and I'm thankful for that.
I love that.
Also, I feel like you never know when someone might just need someone.
They just might need to hear that someone's thinking of them.
Like everyone's going through their own battles and their own things.
I always hear people are like, oh, I should have text them or, you know,
something happens and I wish I reached out.
And it's like then reach out.
(27:55):
Just like just do it because like you never know who just needed to hear
that or like reconnecting with someone or finding a new friend might be the
thing that just really helps them get to a different place in their life or
like fill something that they were really missing.
And life is all about connections and the people that you meet and the
friendships.
So it's like that's what's important.
That's what you get to walk away with.
Like no one's walking away with money, whatever their house is.
(28:19):
Like you walk away with the relationships and the memories.
So I think that's a really amazing thing that you're doing.
And I try to do more too.
It's like that's what's important.
I had to remind myself that you get lost in it sometimes, but I think that's
important to like always keep in mind.
So you talked about reconnecting with friends, but have you,
and since you just started kind of building this grief community,
(28:40):
do you feel something different as you're connecting to other people that
are grieving and like talking about their grief openly and creating that
space?
Cause me and Kendall just joined our grief support group last year and we
became friends last year.
And now we're so close.
Like we talk all the time and we didn't have that till last year.
Like we really just started building that grief community and these new
(29:02):
friendships.
So have you started to kind of lean into making more grief friends besides
us now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's,
it's funny because my initial reaction to that is I feel like I have to
remind people in like my DMS and stuff, basically what I'm going to steal
your guys's tagline.
Like I'm not a professional.
(29:23):
I'm like a professional griever.
Like,
Yeah.
I'm not your therapist.
Yeah.
I'm so glad that you're getting something helpful out of what I'm putting
out there, but like it's part selfish and you know,
it's part, it's part, I'm, I'm healing.
I am, I am, I am on a very long journey myself.
And I like to think that, you know, all of the thinking that I have done
(29:46):
about this and you know, years of therapy and talking with my sister,
who's just an unbelievable person and resource, you know,
I just put out kind of my thoughts.
I'm just putting out my thoughts.
I'm just a person putting out my thoughts with a unique perspective,
like all of our perspectives are.
I can't understand either of your perspectives.
I can't, I just can't.
(30:07):
I really can't.
And it's just that everybody has that.
Everybody has that perspective, which means everybody has that voice.
And I was stupid enough one night to just hit record and then hit publish.
And like that, that's just what's happening.
But yeah, I mean, there have been,
there have been a few people that I consider friends who have,
(30:28):
I've met through this process,
not everybody who's gone through something necessarily like this,
but they have their own unique kind of thing that they bring to the table.
And it's been helpful.
I think we've been helpful to each other, that kind of thing.
But yeah, it's kind of funny.
I think about the first time I saw you guys is we're not professionals.
We're professional.
(30:49):
I was like, yeah, that's a hundred, a hundred percent.
I think that should be like a tagline on anybody talking about this stuff that
isn't a therapist, just to remind you, like I'm not a therapist.
Yeah.
I'm professional on my own pain, but not yours.
Yeah.
Basically.
I'm a therapist.
Yeah.
And I'm happy.
I mean, if you're asking for it, I can,
I can give you my thoughts on the situation, but you know,
I'll go to the bank over it, I guess.
(31:11):
Yeah.
So like, I like how you've mentioned,
you're just one guy with a very unique and tragic circumstance.
And I don't want to say that you're speaking on behalf of a community that
has also gone through very similar situations that you have.
But as we know,
we're in the podcast space and if you're listening to a podcast,
you definitely know that true crime is like always the top podcast people are
(31:33):
listening to is some like weird human intrigue in us.
Like this weird morbidity that people like to listen to these crime stories.
And like you said, you're just a guy, but now you're like, you're a part of one.
And I, I thought it'd be interesting for you to share your perspective on this
and that, you know, I hope,
(31:54):
I hope that no one takes your story and mangles it or disrespects it,
but this is your life.
This is your brother's life.
Like this is his life and reputation.
And how do you,
how do you feel about that and is there anything you want to comment in that
regard?
Yeah.
(32:15):
Never, I was never a fan of that type of content myself before.
I'm not less of a fan of it today.
But I don't think there's anything wrong in telling these stories.
The thing is they're so almost unbelievable,
which I get because I'm living in it and it's still sometimes so surreal.
(32:38):
I can't even put it in the words,
but then it's almost like easy to remove it from and it's like,
it's just this abstract thing over here and I can listen to it and get
this thing out of my head and just like,
I was like,
it's so hard to believe that I'm actually getting out of it,
out of it and move on with my life.
And it's easy to forget that like,
you're literally talking about like a person or people.
(33:00):
And you know, when you see things like there's weird things on the internet,
man,
like people's people's favorite serial killers, right?
Like,
Listen,
you should feel stupid.
You should feel stupid for saying that.
I don't know what else to say.
Really not.
Like that's not, that's, that's like not okay.
It's not, it's not normal behavior as much as it seems like it is.
(33:23):
And it's not just podcasts, right?
We had to literally beg this woman from Dateline NBC to not do this story.
Here's the thing, like I almost want to scream this from the rooftops, from the mountains
to the world.
I want everybody to know.
But like that's like, I feel like our job because you know, Dateline, they do a good
(33:46):
job and they would say, you know, we're not, they said we're not entertainment, we're,
we're news.
And it's like, listen, I'm not an idiot.
Like I know what Dateline NBC is.
Like I know what it is.
And they also want to give a voice to the other side.
They want to let this person talk.
And then that immediately becomes, well, absolutely not then because not in any world would I
(34:11):
want some program out there where maybe he gets on camera and is like, I didn't do it.
I really, you know, I did, because that's what he would say.
I mean, he hasn't admitted guilt to anything.
So a world where there's even one person on earth that has sympathy towards this human
being does not exist for me.
And I will do whatever I can to keep it that way for the rest of my life.
(34:34):
It's as simple as that.
So, you know, people get their entertainment in all kinds of ways.
I'm not a huge fan.
My sister and I actually, I know, I feel like I've sworn a couple of times.
I hope that's okay.
No, I swear.
Okay, good.
So my sister and I joked when we were talking about this podcast idea, the idea for the
name of our first podcast was the Fuck True Crime Podcasts podcast.
(34:58):
And we'd be the other side of it and we would just berate the hosts.
We berate the stories.
We would just rip them apart and let them just give up.
I think that needs to exist.
Yeah, right.
Like how I'm surprised it doesn't, I guess.
But yeah, just rip them apart because why not?
(35:19):
I don't know.
If you're making your living off of people's sadness, like I'm allowed to make my living
off of making fun of you, I guess.
Give a voice to the other side.
But yeah, I don't know.
We'll see where we go with that.
I think that should exist.
And also I think those crime podcasts have really desensitized people on death overall
and you see it on social media.
(35:41):
You see it on all these stories and it's like, it's not just like that person.
It's like their families.
Like you just, when you experience it, you know how much one death really means.
And it's like, and if you experienced that, you're not going to be commenting something
hurtful and so rude to someone that passed or is going through something hard because
you know that it's so difficult.
(36:02):
And I think that's the hard part is like, it becomes more like salacious and like marketing
and just this whole thing rather than like this is someone's actual life and their actual
story.
And if that was like something so much of my sister happened, I would be so like, I
would probably, I don't know what I do, but I wouldn't be nice about it for sure because
(36:22):
I would be so protective over how my sister was talked about, how the story was talked
about.
I would definitely be so particular.
And our friend, Brittany Spivey, who's who at this point already be, have been on our
podcast.
She says, make your grief pay you.
That's like something that she says.
And in that way it's like, your grief is your pain and it's your story.
(36:43):
Like figure out a way for it to like pay you back.
And your story is, I don't say like making money off your story, but it's like, if someone
is going to make money off a story, if anyone should, it's going to be that.
It should be you.
That's, that's what I was going to jump in before you said that.
Like it's not about the money, but are you kidding me?
Like in what world do you think you're going to make any money?
(37:04):
If you're going to do a story on anyone in my family, we're going to get total and final
say in what it looks like and everything that you put in it.
And anything that comes from it is either going to my family foundation that we've
created in my brother's name that has raised over $300,000.
That's amazing.
Yeah, something, but it's not going to you.
(37:27):
It's not going to some fucking stranger on the internet.
Like that's unacceptable.
Like in every way, shape and form, like, and everyone should at least, even if you're like
not going to stop watching your true crime podcast, if you hear that being said, you
should at least go, yeah, sure.
I, I I'm on board with that.
Strangers shouldn't be making money off a story that had nothing to do with it.
It's not some, it's not a fiction book that you wrote that you want the rights to.
(37:51):
This is a story with people's lives.
In what world do you think you deserve a dime from that happening to other people?
That's my problem with it.
That's fair.
Yeah.
And that's why your podcast should exist.
Cause I think that's a really good counter.
I think that's a counter, that's like culture shift.
Like we need some reckoning with the way that culture is shifting where it's like, I don't
(38:15):
even see humanity in it anymore.
Like the human part is getting so taken, taking a back seat into everything.
And it's like, we're all humans and we're not connecting on the basic human things.
We're connecting on all these other things that just making people just so disconnected.
So I definitely think like that would be a great take and perspective of just like, what
(38:38):
is it actually like?
Like, what is that actual feeling and who should be making money off of this?
Cause people are making money.
Like all the podcasts, all the top true crime are like, they're so rich.
They're making so much money off of this.
And it's like, who should be?
It should definitely be you.
It should definitely be families like yours for sure.
Yeah.
It's just like a very interesting time where like that is so popular and everyone sees
(39:01):
it as dollar signs and not just human things that have happened that are horrible.
Yeah.
And it's like, who's worse, is it the people that see that potential and then go and create
that podcast or is it the audience who doesn't see what's wrong with that?
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
You know, is it capitalism or is it just human nature?
(39:23):
That's wrong.
I don't know.
I'm not sure, but something, something's wrong with it.
I had listened to true crime for a little bit because I like like law and order, but
I was just like, I don't like listening to these stories.
Like speaking about it in a way that still doesn't feel sincere.
It's just like, I always see it as like, I'm listening to the actual family story.
And it's like, it just never seems like it's conveyed the way that I feel like it should.
(39:48):
Yeah.
And it just like, to me, such a delicate thing.
I mean, just they're going to have to add just the act of adding drama to a situation
to a story like that.
You're like, you know, that's, that's not easy.
That's not.
There are a couple of, there was some YouTube channel that I don't know if they have any
follow.
(40:08):
I don't know what they are, but like very quickly, you know, we, we, we saw, and I,
I tried to message and ask them to take it down.
They put together their own like kind of version of like a true crime podcast slash Dateline
NBC story with it all.
But like, you know, that's like you said, like that's my brother's name.
Like that's my sister in law's name.
(40:29):
You think she wants that out there for the rest of her life?
Because if this isn't hard enough that she's going through this, it's not, it's, it's,
these are, these are people and that shit has consequences.
Like people, I don't know where they get off on finding like something in themselves that
says I have the right, just because it's public domain.
I have the right to also go and sensationalize this and see if I can make money off it.
(40:51):
I don't know where that comes from in people.
I can't imagine doing that ever in my life before.
I can't imagine it.
But like you're saying, if someone's going to do anything with the story, it's the people
involved directly.
That's the only fair thing.
I definitely agree.
So we'll be waiting for your podcast.
We're going to start working on it.
Yeah.
We're going to put the pressure that we want to see that happen.
(41:13):
So we want to end this on a positive note and thinking about Philip.
So what is one thing or just many things that you want your brother to be remembered by?
I think the easiest thing to say is how many people loved him.
I mean, it's overwhelming.
It was over.
(41:33):
His services were overwhelming.
There was like 1500 people or some insane number that walked through.
Everybody loved him.
That's who he was.
He was like the best.
He was awesome.
He was just the best and he made other people feel good, which is why he had that effect
on them.
It was better if Philip was there, like period to me and everybody else.
(41:58):
Like if he was there, like my life partner in crime was at the party with me or out at
whatever the social gap, it was better.
I'm like, okay, good.
I got it.
I can be me.
I got my brothers here.
But I think he did that to a lot of people because he was really good at very quickly
like connecting with you.
He was very good at that.
He was just one of those people.
Super easy to get along with, super easy to talk to.
(42:20):
So you immediately felt like you knew him.
So like from then on you were like, oh, Philip's here.
Like this is better.
And he did that to everybody.
It didn't matter if it was his friend group, his work group.
It didn't matter wherever he was.
And everybody said that on their own as they walked through the services, as the years
have gone on.
That is the story of my brother.
(42:41):
Like really a special, special person.
Yeah.
It sounds like the world was a better place with him in it.
100%.
100%.
First, we want to thank you so much for spending so much time with us this evening and just
enlightening us to who Philip is and his legacy that's going to carry on.
Obviously, I've been very emotional like crying through this whole thing, but we want our
(43:03):
listeners if they want to connect with you or learn more, how can they find you?
Where should they connect with you on?
Can you give handles, stuff like that?
Yeah.
Well, it's January that we're filming this.
So depending on when it comes out, there could or could not be a TikTok.
I don't know.
Yeah.
That's where I started uploading videos.
But I'm at Brendan Shaw Grief there, but then I have a website slash newsletter, sign
(43:30):
up at the same address, BrendanShawGrief.com.
I have the same handle on Instagram as like a backup.
I have yet to put anything there.
It's just kind of there as a placeholder.
If TikTok does go away, I'll probably move stuff over there, but I try to keep it pretty
consistent across.
So if anybody wants to pop in, I'll continue to try and put out that kind of content.
And if it helps anybody out there, that's more than I could have asked for.
(43:52):
Well, thank you so much.
We really appreciate having you on.
It was something that we realized like season one, we really talked about a lot of our grief
things and things that we learned, but we thought season two would be a good time to
like expand our knowledge on grief and really hear other people's stories and their experiences.
One thing that we talk a lot about like traumatic grief and not having any experience with that,
(44:15):
it's a very different grief.
So everyone is different.
Everyone, like you said, like you don't know our experience, like we don't know yours.
Like we don't know how that feels.
And I think it's important to hear other group stories and then learn from it and then not
compare it, but just like learn and kind of expand your knowledge as we are professional
grievers, not professional professionals.
(44:36):
That is absolutely correct.
Yes.
Well, thank you so much, Brennan, for joining us.
We loved and also heartbreaks with hearing your story, but thank you so much for sharing
with us.
We loved hearing about Philip and we're excited to see like the legacy you continue to share
about him and with the foundation and everything as well.
(44:58):
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much for having me.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.