Technological Sovereignty and Human Connection: A Conversation with Ambassador Philip Thigo

Episode Transcript
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Dina Sherif (00:09):
So I'm very excited today to welcome His Excellency,
Ambassador Philip Thigo.
Ambassador Philip the go is arenowned technology and public
policy expert, although he wentto Princeton, I went to Harvard.
That's okay. He's a specialenvoy for technology for the
Republic of Kenya and thefounding director for Africa at
the Thunderbird School of GlobalManagement at Arizona State

(00:32):
University. He's also somebody Inow consider a good friend and
mentor and somebody who calms medown. So Philip, welcome to our
podcast, Legacy of purpose. It'swonderful to have you with us,
and I'm excited to get yourthoughts and your story out to

(00:53):
our audience. So you know, thefirst question I want to ask you
is, you have had this remarkablecareer that is really at this
intersection of technology andpublic policy and public
service, and from your time asexecutive director of infonet

(01:13):
Africa that was like over adecade ago, and your current
roles that you have right now. Imean, the truth is, if you
wanted to, you could haveactually pursued a career that
was way more lucrative in theprivate sector, but you push to
take this path of service anddoing good in the world and

(01:38):
always having meaning at thecenter of the work that you do.
That's probably not by accident,no, and that usually comes from
where we come from, as our interms of our family, in terms of
our upbringing, the values thatwere instilled in us. So can you
share with us the values thatdrove you to pursue such a

(02:01):
unique career path that hasimpact at its core, when you
could have really joined thecorporate sector and made a lot
of money and worked in thetechnology space, frankly, but
instead, you're thinking abouthow to bring technology into the
Public Sector.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS (02:20):
Thank you so much, Dino, of course, of
course, I met you a year ago,and this is sort of kindred
spirit, I think is the firstconversation I'm having with on
this sort of reflection fromwhere I came from. I think Alin
Ali in our lives, right? So alot of us always try to find
meaning, and in most cases, yousort of have these options in

(02:46):
terms of certain parts that youneed to take. I think for me,
I've always been a product of ofgenerosity, and so I think that
really informed my choice interms of a career pathway,
because we may think these arecoincidences where generosity
kind of guides you in certaindirections, and I have not

(03:10):
regretted since I basically wasbrought up in Kibera. Kibera is
one of the slums in Kenya, andI've seen people who I grew up
with, and I've seen thepotential outcomes if I did not
take some certain steps of somecertain parts to where I am

(03:31):
today. And so part of the valuesthat I had for me, and the
values that I was one, isgenerosity, and you have to
give, not because you haveextra, you have to give of
yourself with what you have.
Because I think sometimes wesort of assume you only give
because you can have a lot ofthings to spend. So it's been an
amazing journey, and many timesI look at my friends who went in

(03:53):
corporate because I was not intechnology myself. I mean, we
were a big cohort, and many ofthem are not happy, right? So
yes, you have money, but thenyou're still struggling to find
meaning. And so for me, takingthis pathway of giving back and
and, and in Africa, the givingback, you really have to be in

(04:13):
public service, yeah, becauseit's a thankless It's a
thankless job, so you don't doit to be thanked. You do it
because you're given. But

where did that idea of generosity come from? Like
when I think, you know, my momalways used to say, if you can
help, somebody help, no matterwhat it is, if there's something
you can do to help and somebodyasks you always do it. And that
has kind of guided my life, andI often hear her voice in my
head.

I'm like, you same thing, yeah. The
problem is, I've had agrandmother and a mother, so
both of them, well, it's kind ofannoying, right? So sometimes
they come and say, oh, you know,I do not have X. You buy them
the X. The next time they'relike, you know, you want to buy
me another one. I said, so. Sowhy do they. Go, oh, you know,
somebody came and I saw theydidn't have so I had to give
them what I had. So, so,basically, these things kind of

(05:05):
creep up on you, right? So, sothat's, that's our mothers,
that's my whatever they have,they give, they give. And so,
oh, because, you know, so youwork, you, I mean, I have you,
you could always buy me, butthey don't have anybody. And
women, honestly, and this isquite interesting, that women
have always shaped my career.
When I came out of school,there's a lady, Dr Corinne
Kumara, remember she got me outof the UN I was volunteering for

(05:28):
something. And again, she it wasquite interesting. So when you
ask I would have been incorporate or not in civil
society. It was quiteinteresting, because she, she
was a sociologist, yeah, butthen she could see what I could
do with technology. And then atmy very I mean, I was like, 22

(05:48):
or 23 and her point was, what ifI would ask you to do something
that was out of the ordinary?
And I said, What is it? He said,listen, it was quite
interesting. And this was in NewYork during the commission,
instead of CSW March. It was thefirst time I saw snow. That's
another story. But she put$1,300 on the table. That was my

(06:13):
job interview, $1,300 $1,300

and then what did you do with those $13

like, listen, I ran this organization.
Nelson Mandela is the president.
So that was, of course, a hook.
I'm African. Come on, Mandela,you don't have say anything
else. We have three offices,Bangalore, Cape Town, Geneva, HQ
in Tunisia. This, this $1,300can get you to those four
destinations if you think youwant to proceed what you're

(06:43):
doing now, take the $1,300 andjust do something with it. But
if you want to do somethingdifferent, whenever you're
ready, take a flight and come.
So that's what happened. And

you went to Tunisia, right? So

you went to Tunisia was different. So of
course, it's so funny again.
Back to my mother. Came toNairobi with the $1,300 and me
and my mom are looking at $1,300right? So you can see us, you
can imagine the picture. So twoof us are like, but you know the
school fees to pay here. There'ssomething to do there. Just
looking at this $1,300 you'relike, Listen, if somebody asks
you to do this, it's not acoincidence. My mother was

(07:20):
always I do not believe incoincidences. So nothing
happens. Nothing happens bychance, or went to tunis, that's
how I speak Arabic. It wasdifferent. And my life has never
been the same.

Amazing. Yeah. So it's interesting how certain
things happen and push you incertain directions, and somehow
you found yourself as theSpecial Envoy for technology for
your country, Kenya. Now as apart of that role, you've been
asked to be bold and to disruptwhat does that mean in a country

(07:57):
that is also struggling from aneducational perspective when it
comes to math and science andthe overall performance of math
and science, because, like manyof us, you know, from a lot of
the markets, I come from Egypt,and I love my country. I know
that you love your country andbut we also have to be

(08:20):
constructive in what needs tochange in our countries and how
we critique them. So how do youthink Kenya and other
governments across growthmarkets, Africa, Latin America,
Asia, Middle East? How do youthink all of our markets should
examine and address some of thebroken systems or policies that

(08:43):
we have that are inhibiting ourability to truly innovate and
grow. Got

it. I mean, so the role of a special
envoy of technology, and this issomething I credit His
Excellency, the President inthis is is having a vision that
then begins to understand therole of technology in
transformation is because thesort of the current
architecture, unless you beginto will technology, then you

(09:14):
sort of have a lot ofchallenges. Because one thing
you realize that our developmenthistorically has been resource
intensive, yeah, and theresource intensive are the
things that you're mentioning,right? So, as much as we have
raw material, or sort of thesort of, how do I say it's sort
of the sort of the hardware ofdevelopment, we've not had the
capability to sort of turn tomanufacture, right, to sort of

(09:37):
transform it into into, sort of,like into sort of goods, instead
of the consumer goods or thingsthat people can can consume.
It's always being done somewhereelse,

no, but we've been put in this box of producer, you

know, we produce what you don't consume,
and consume what you don'tproduce, right? So that's always
the African narrative, right?

You know, we send, uh, we send our cocoa, cocoa,
and then we eat it. From anothersend

out coffee. Then when

I mean, let's be honest, that's the overall state
of this continent has been aplace of extraction. That's true

and it and think about it and its
legacy of colonialism, right?
So, so, so you need somethingdifferent, and you need
something disruptive, and that'swhy the boldness comes in. Of
course, it makes many peopleuncomfortable, because the
discomfort comes from losingpower, because it's one thing to
be to have a system thatcontinues to ensure that the
African continent is thatprovider of labor or raw

(10:34):
material, and not necessarily anAfrican continent, then can
harness its labor, harness theraw material for its
development, but also serve theworld, right? So, so that's
that, that's been our legacy.
And so the boldness you need isto confront that burden of
history. And so I think havingsomebody like me, I have a

(10:58):
colleague who's on climate, thenyou begin to sort of one, send a
signal that we know, right?
Because knowledge is important.
The second thing is that we aredoing something about it, and
and we are being verydeliberate. And so what are you
doing? Tell

us what you're doing. So, so

first thing, of course, is, is making
sure we are very much on thetable. Because if you're not on
the table, as you said, you onthe menu, on all conversations,
on all conversations. Secondlyis that we don't come as Kenya.
We come as the continent,because that's always been the
problem divide and rule, right?
So we are all divided inAnglophone, you know, Lusophone,
Francophone, and all the phones.

(11:36):
So that's our joke. Exactly.
Not. We never said this. Whosaid we are men? Are you know,
and so you know exactly. So it'sbeen, it's been, it's been a
tactic to divide us and not tosee ourselves as one cohesive
unit. A lot of ourinfrastructure is extractive.
Our rail was never built for aninternal network. It was built

(11:59):
to go to the coast. This is theAfrican story. All roads go to
the coast and to remove so wedon't necessarily not to
connect, not to connectinternally, yeah. And so
basically, that's what also weare doing in terms of, you see
what, when I'm talking abouttechnology and and sort of the
fundamental infrastructures forAI, whether it's compute, how do
we do compute that we can workourselves. How do we fiber in

(12:21):
Africa, not the fibers that arecoming and landing into the
coast? That's fine. But then,how do you ensure that we can
have our internal connectivityto the last month?

Yeah, I love this.
The idea of how do we build, notfor extraction, but for
connection, is such a powerfulthing, but, you know, let's go
back to this idea of AI,because, you know, you're,
you're one of, I mean, you're anambassador, but you're also an
ambassador for AI, and you wereappointed to this special

(12:54):
committee by the UN SecretaryGeneral around how AI can do
good for our societies, but foradvanced technology like aI
generative. Ai, ai is evolvingat an extremely fast paced pace.
And you know, when I hear peopletalk about AI, and I have,
there's a professor at one atMIT who's phenomenal, always

(13:17):
says, you know, AI can transformsystems depending on how we use
it. It can help us leapfrog andaddress some of these broken
systems that we have, whether itbe in agriculture, education or
healthcare. Now, my question toyou is, you know, now we see
this new wave of people inAfrica talking about AI. AI can

(13:40):
transform, but there are certainrealities still right. There are
certain realities in our systemsthat need to be addressed, which
is, we can't really make use ofAI without the right
infrastructure. You know, a bigpart of Africa still doesn't
have access to the grid, so theydon't access to electricity. A

(14:01):
big part of Africa is still notbeing educated. Or if they're
being educated, they're notbeing educated well, and they
are not. Digital Literacycontinues to lag behind. You
know, people talk about Kenya,they say, oh, Kenya, it's the
most digitally connected countryit is, but in reality, it's not,
yeah, right. It's not so what,and like very clear items, what

(14:28):
are, what needs to change inorder for Africa as a whole to
really embrace AI as a as apathway to leapfrogging into
economic agency that wouldprevent the extraction and allow
for connection. Got it

so I think the first thing that I
always say, and that's why it isimportant to be sort of on the
table, is when I got appointedby the United Nations Secretary
General in. The first thing wasto think about sort of one of
six Africans on the table,potentially just two of the six

(15:09):
Africans who actually live inthe continent to be in this
advisory body. The firstcomposition, of course, is, how
do we define AI from an Africanperspective? Because there's, of
course, a dominant, uh, sort ofsort of narrative around what AI
is. And many people come intothis space from a very nuanced

(15:30):
geopolitical perspective, right?
So, so for me, that's, that'sthe first point is we should
not, and nobody should definewhat AI is to Africans,

as in, the first step is to define what it means
to

us, right? It's not about self
driving cars. It's not aboutvanity. It's about what can we
do with this technology toadvance us and our continent? I
think for me, that that needs tobe the

game changer. So then, let's say we do that,

yeah, so the second part, so we

say, finally, we say, as Africa, this is what
advanced technology means to usin our countries. Now, what,
what systems do we need tochange for this? Which

is so, so now, so then that did that. Then
begin, begins to determine yourinvestments, right? Then you
begin to prioritize, to say,Listen, at least the sort of the
critical infrastructure forartificial intelligence, right?
Whether it's talent, and youmentioned that in terms of STEM
and how you build a pipeline,whether it's data, in terms of

(16:38):
how we build our data, build ourdata capabilities, our data
ecosystems, and then the computehow we invest in that. And then,
of course, algorithms piece interms of how we we ensure that
we will produce right? Because,remember, the others are still
raw material. We still need tomanufacture it. And for me, the
algorithms are the sort of theproducts that you need to use to

(16:59):
sort of then begin to addressthe challenges that we have. So
if we invest in the fourinfrastructure, I think for me,
I put it around the compute,because computing is layered
right from data centers to toelectricity, because, as you
know, compute just sucks upenergy. So we need to ensure
that our energy Why is

the only place that has that capability right now,

I think historically, right so. If you
look at Morocco, historically isthe because of proximity to
Europe. You sort of had had sortof early, early sort of
investments in broadband. Theyhad a DSL for those of us, for
those of you are, some of aswell as old as we are because of
our age. I still don't havewhite hair, yeah, well, I do. I

(17:45):
color my beard, but, butbasically, so some countries
just because of proximity andMorocco, Tunisia, Algeria, so
those North African countries,just because of proximity to
Europe, have been able to adoptthese technologies in early
stage. I mean, this is not new.
I lived in Tunis. We had, we hadgood connectivity. That's where
we had the world summit ofinformation society in 275 where
there are very solid, solid sortof education system. They have

(18:09):
amazing engineers in that partof the world across in terms of
human capital, when you look atthat. So I think, but you can
see those are the COinvestments, you know? And you
said, so part of human agency isactually investing in people,
right? And so if we can definewhat AIS was, then it means we
will put money in what matters.

(18:31):
So yes, I agree to build roads,but the roads are not the
infrastructure of the future. Weneed yes to build roads, but
also prioritize connectivity,prioritize talent in terms of
data scientists and machinelearning experts, but also the
many disciplines that then arethe disciplines of the future,
plus AI, otherwise you haveobsolete education systems that

(18:52):
produce learners who are not fitfor the market, and so you just
have this, you know, this sortof meal that turns out people
who, who cannot then, yeah, andI

mean, you know, you and I were educated in the US,
and it's a great privilege, butin the in the US, there's such a
huge investment in R D. We havethe infrastructure for R D. You
know, on any of the universitiesthat you and I went to, whether
it be Princeton Harvard or whereI'm teaching, where I am now at
MIT. MIT being the leadobviously, in that the

(19:30):
infrastructure the labs existsto do that, R and D. How many
universities in Africa have thatcapability? Not many. And how
many governments on thecontinent are actually investing
the right percentage of theirGDP back into R and D that is
required for us to startbuilding our own innovation

(19:52):
capacity?

I get it, and if you see, and part of this
is, I think it's a designchallenge of. Colleagues who
really emphasize on thisparticular piece, again, tiny
colonial legacy, because part ofpart of sort of decolonization
must also be dismantling thecolonial architecture. Because,

(20:17):
yes, you can be emancipated. Youcan get independence. But then
if you do not deconstruct thatinfrastructure, I think it's a
Nigerian poet who said, youknow, the master's tools cannot
dismantle the master's house,and so if we don't also
deconstruct these tools, then itdoesn't make sense. And that's

(20:39):
why I think you've seen Kenya,for example, the President has
been very adamant in terms ofreforming the education system,
because you cannot inherit thesystem that is built to
subjugate no

education. We've seen it happen so many times.
Reform education, they reformcurriculum. That's incremental.
Then you have to reform theteachers and the entire system
of education, and that's wheretechnology, and

that's where the models come, right?
So, yeah, and, I mean, it's,again, Masters tools, right? So
you go, you copy what the masteris doing, right? So do a little
bit of, you know, do a littlebit of replication, right? So
it's working there, so we'llreplicate it. Of course, we know
how other goals, or we doincremental, which is reforms,
or you can be both and totallydo a differentiated model. And

(21:28):
for us, a differentiated modelneeds to be an African model. An
African model needs to alsounderstand where the world is
right now, that if we have theyoungest population, if we have
all the raw materials, including60% of arable land. If we have
now a very educated Africanpopulation, they're not many,
but at least we have a criticalmass. We have a middle class. We

(21:52):
didn't have this. We definitelyhave, yeah, we have industries
now. We have companies now thatare here. Why can't we to your
connected story, harness thiscollective capability, make it
connected to start to deliverfor the continent, so that the
continent then aspires to whatthe continent should be. Because

(22:15):
it's it seems like everybodysees our value. We don't. Well,

that was by design.
That's my point. I mean, itsounds like what you're
describing, on some level, isutopia, but in my mind, it
sounds like you're describingAfrica pre colonial times. You
know, I just released a paperthat I co wrote with one of our
fellow alum, who's from Senegal.

(22:41):
Her name is Khadija, and youknow, she and I, we thought a
lot about the African narrative.
And, you know, I'm Egyptian,oftentimes people deny me my
African heritage, becausesomehow during colonial times,
you know, there was us up hereand everyone down here, and we
know what that divide was about,and it was about skin color had

(23:02):
nothing to do, but the realityis we are one Africa, and when
it comes to the Africannarrative, it's still one
African narrative, and thatoften comes with a lot of
negative connotations. And sheand I spent quite a bit of time
looking at African history, precolonial times, and you know, we
saw you, if you looked at mapspre colonial times, the trade

(23:25):
routes Africa was this beautifulopen continent, with trade
happening in every direction andEgypt, the science and the
innovation that came out of mycountry, or mathematics was born
on this continent, medicine,science. It was always a part of
who we who we were. And thencolonial times came, and somehow

(23:47):
we found ourselves trapped inthis narrative of scarcity and
dependence and less than andthat was by design so that the
extraction could continue. Imean, we're being very bold and
controversial here, and I knowsome people won't like what we
have to say, but the reality is,like I hear you and I say when

(24:09):
you talk about technology, andwe have to be bold, and we have
to really think about in orderfor technology to transform
Africa, it also requires thatgovernments and citizens stop
saying things like, we're broke,we don't have the ability to
invest in the rightinfrastructure, that scarcity
mindset, or we we won't be ableto do it. There's this kind of,

(24:35):
you know, limit. We're not goodenough. But the reality is, we
do have the talent, and a lot ofour talent is supporting what is
happening in the United Statesor Europe or other advanced
economies. And also, you know,we're not thinking about how to
look inwards and say, there'stalent in Egypt, there's talent

(24:55):
in Kenya, there's talent inNigeria, there's talent. Talent
in Ghana, there's talent inTanzania in South Africa. How do
we take all that talent and useit and share that talent for the
greater good and for the greatergood of Africa? So my question
to you is, how? Because youalways talk about Africa, you

(25:16):
say Kenya, but then you sayKenya is only as good as the
rest of Africa and our abilityto really connect and start
trading with each other. But,you know, in the end, it sounds
like you're saying this is allabout mindset. Yes.

Oh, it's totally about mindset and
culture. Its mindset is culture,but, and this is the point,
right? So, and it's good. Youmentioned, sort of the rich
history we had, whether it's thelibrary in Alexandria or Tim
Bucha or Songhai or the Mali,you know, we had city states
before anybody. Exactly so. Andso, I think for me, remember

(25:58):
until there was sort of adefined formal process that
valorizes knowledge. All of asudden, civilizations became
stupid, right? Because then acertain people defined all of a

(26:19):
sudden, overnight, created ayardstick,

but if we want our material, but that's

the point, right? So it's to create
a yardstick that then theyunderstand it, so that all of
you have to measure up to thatyardstick. So then that
yardstick, then is whatvalorizes whether you know you
don't know. Yeah, right. So forme, and that's the boldness,
right? So the point, the pointthat Africans now should be
talking about, and that's wheretechnology comes in, is we can

(26:45):
actually create a yardstick onour own. That's what
leapfrogging is. That's whatwe've done with mobile
telephones. That's what we'vedone with with mobile payment.
We've created a yardstick,right? So as much as you have
exactly, right? So as much asyou talk about financial
inclusion, we are challengingthe notion of financial
inclusion in your model, becauseyour model financial inclusion
is having a bank account. Um,notion the first

people to say, you know, you don't need to go to
exam. Exactly that happenedhere, exactly in Kenya, and that
is so it has been that is notbeing used,

of course, and because, and again,
to your mental challenges, andbecause we are not built to
praise or to talk aboutourselves, but just not built
that way, and that's a strugglein this world that you really
have to articulate,

or were built to think it was an exception,

exactly

happenstance, right? Opened up this whole
space for FinTech and digitalbanking and how to use a phone,
right? That all happened herebefore it happened anywhere
else, right? Seen as like, Oh,that was like a fluke instance.

So I think again, and it's something
that sort of you keep onmentioning, is that we need to
have more conversations, yeah,because part of having this
conversation is affirmation, andwe need to affirm ourselves. I
don't need anybody else to comeand affirm us to break these
barriers. And that's whattechnology has done before. I

(28:16):
mean, it's ridiculous, but it'smore expensive to travel in the
continent, then

out of the continent. Oh, my God, I hear
you. That's the point. Todifferent places like by design
keep us separated. We need toaddress this. That's

the thing, right? So, but see,
technology does that. We can beinspired and and it's easier to
build that digitalinfrastructure than build the
old infrastructure. Imaginebuilding an airport, then
getting planes to run, thengetting planes to sort of land
than just, you know, becausepeople to people is already
happening, right? And you needto do this at scale. How many

(28:53):
people can still need airports?
We need them, but how manypeople can travel over? How many
people can connect via, via theinternet. I think for me, it's
more it's more easy to move thatway in terms of digital public
goods than moving people. Andthe more people start to connect
and engage, the more we start tosort of have this affirmation,

(29:13):
so the more we need tounderstand ourselves. Yeah, you
know, and language withtechnology now is not a barrier.
I can have a quick translate. AIcan quickly translate. Mike is
way and wall off, and we canhave a conversation, yeah, that
without a French then Englishintermediary, right? So why do
we have to go into thoselanguages, and not just our own
languages, right? And that'swhat technology, I think, in my

(29:36):
view, can do. But we just needto believe that we need to build
those data sets, yeah, of ourown languages. So

I'm going to ask you a little bit of a
controversial question, and it'sabout something you said to
yesterday to my fellows, andbecause yesterday, we talked a
lot about geopolitical,geopolitics, you know, I I. As
Dina, I have this likeincredible obsession with

(30:05):
economic sovereignty and theneed for entrepreneurship to be
our pathway to creating economicagency and less dependency on
those who have historicallyextracted from the continent.
But I feel like you have adifferent fear, which is that
advanced technology can beanother tool to keep us

(30:28):
colonized. And you use a termcalled, I think, technological
sovereignty, that must have beenon your mind for a while. What
is your big concern?

It does.
So if think about the first,second, third industrial
revolution, right? So they and

the fourth revolution, this is our moment,
if we don't, thank

you. And so if you look at the pattern,
right? So the pattern isAfricans have always been the
raw material, or providing theraw material, so either labor or
just from our from Earth, right?
Diamonds, exactly. So in thefourth industrial revolution,
unless we dislocate, unless wedisrupt that pattern, then
there's a problem. It'shappening now, right? So from

(31:15):
Colton to to rare earthminerals, to green minerals,
it's happening right? And thento people, we are still the
youngest population, so it meansit's happening over in AI in
terms of annotation or labeling,right? So the value is still,
and I don't want to namecompanies, but a Kenyan here,
and we know this through a BPO,is paid about $200 for labeling

(31:38):
for a company that is a multibillion dollar company. So
again, right? So it's been in myhead in terms of technological
sovereignty, which means if weif all the raw materials here,
including the labor, which is ayoung people, then we need to
start to shift in a way that webecome the creators of the

(32:00):
technology, and unless we dothat, we'll be perennial
subscribers and users of tech.
And unless we do it now. So Ialways talk about beyond agency,
there's urgency. If we don't doit now, then the foundations are
being set at this time. So, very

little time, very little to turn this around
Exactly.

And so, to your point, we need, we need,
it's an all in effort. That'swhat I keep on saying. We need
governments. We need leadership.
We need private sector folks. Weneed people to make hard
decisions. Yeah, you know, to itto sort of, because I think for
me, I always tell people, youknow, it will be a short time
that we need to sacrifice, yeah,for all of us to come in to
ensure that when the foundationshave been set, they're being set

(32:47):
in a way that we have a rightfulplace. So short term,

long term, long term gain. That's okay, yeah,
that's another mindset shiftthat needs to happen here,
right? Because we were soconditioned to think short term
and

me, me, me, right? So it's also silo,
right? So, I mean, we havepressures. I'm not saying that
people don't have economicpressures. People don't bills
still have to be paid,

but the pressures are there anyway. And I think if
we don't take action now, we'regoing to end up in an even worse
situation. Right? Progress needsto be made, but it needs to be
made in a very different waynow. And you know, the question
I have is that you and I bothshare this common dream of
Africa, you know, achievingeconomic agency and the

(33:39):
exponential growth of theprivate sector, and we talk
about that, and we want to seeentrepreneurs across the
continent scaling their venturesin the continent. You know, I
personally want to see it stopseeing entrepreneurs leave to go
scale elsewhere. And that's partof why we created the foundry
fellowship, is to create thiscommunity of African
entrepreneurs who are investedin this continent, who will help

(34:03):
each other scale to each other'scountries, and who will create
ecosystems that are strong andvibrant and integrated. So to be
able to have an entrepreneur inAfrica connect their ecosystem
in Cairo to Nairobi toJohannesburg to Lagos is
something we've never hadbefore. And for us to think

(34:25):
about our entrepreneurs scalinginternally on this continent is
also new. But having said that,you know, we also want to see
these entrepreneurs beinnovation driven Exactly. And
that means that you know,because you and I know, Africa
is a net consumer of technologyand innovation right now, we are
a net consumer, and we want tobe come a major exporter of

(34:48):
innovation over the next twodecades, as our population grows
and stays young in about, youknow, 25 years, one in. Four
people in the world will beAfrican, African, yes. So we
cannot. We don't have the luxuryof continuing to be net
consumers. We have to build now.
So what needs to change, likewhat specifically needs to

(35:12):
change across Kenya and acrossour entire continent for us to
start becoming net exporters ofinnovation for this continent to
be competing with the UnitedStates and and Europe and other
advanced economies when it comesto innovation that solves major
global challenges the

species you mentioned, right? So one is,
of course, is, is this wholecreation of of industry, right?
So we don't, and I say this witha lot of humility, and I tell
people that we have to be honestwith ourselves, we really don't
have a technology. We don't havethe we don't have our industry
yet. We have pieces of it. Wehave innovators here and there,

(35:56):
but then we don't have industry.
It needs to be cohesive, becausewe need to do this art skill and
to build industry. And I'll comeback to this is we need to
invest in what matters. I agreethat we are within fiscal
constraints. I agree that a lotof the countries, the African
countries, are in a debt burden.

(36:18):
Kenya is not an exception. Butthen, if we were to invest the
little money that we have fordevelopmental expenditure around
creating these industries, itmeans we can turn this debt
burden around very quickly,right? Which means same things
you're mentioning, how do we putmoney into R and D? Right?

(36:39):
Because, unless our decisionsare driven by data, then we, my
president says it, then it'sguesswork, right? And we cannot
be guess working our future whensomebody is being very
deliberate, because we areworking against forces and
patients that are not sleeping,because future economies will be

(36:59):
determined by who ownstechnology? Let's be honest. It
means determining the future ofpower and power is not given.

Power is claimed exactly that. Power is not
given. So invest

in R and D, invest in talent, invest on
the infrastructure of thefuture. You are right. 27% of
this region, only 27% isconnected to the internet.
People think it's a lot ofpeople. It's just that we have a
few Philips who are loud, right?
Few of us loud, very loudpeople. And all of a sudden,

(37:30):
people think it's 100% it isnot. So how do you ensure that
the entire continent is isconnected? I mean, I was given a
figure yesterday that kind ofhad me worried that 900,000
Kenyans are graduating from highschool this year.

900 Yeah, that's not for I mean, Egypt is not we.
I think in my country, you know,the co founder of my company
also has an education company,he says, And he always says to
me, Egypt is under enormouspressure to be able to provide
higher education institutionssheer number of people who are

(38:14):
going to be graduating, it's afire hose.

He's like a fire hose. He's like 900,000
somebody's putting a fire hoseon you. And so I think those are
the pieces, right. So we need tothink about, where do the
900,000 go every year, right?
And unless we build thatpipeline, pathways, right? So
pathways in terms of meaningful,sort of career paths, but then
that's a challenge. I thinkfinally, for me, is that, and I

(38:38):
cannot have emphasized this, andwhat technology can do dinner,
really for me, is to redefinepan Africanism, right? Because
pan Africanism, in my view, andpart of our bringing, were
lucky, and like the currentgeneration was, we were lucky to
sort of in our early days, tohave seen what Pan African was

(38:59):
in terms of when a continentcomes together to say, we will
work together to emancipateevery state, right?

Like I remember my father used to say, oh, you
know, there was a time whenCairo University, it was a big
people all over Africa wouldcome and study at Cairo
University and

Mali maker, you know, Ben Bella, you
know, we, I know these things,right? But NASA, you know,
single from Senegal Corona, youknow, so we, we knew these
folks. And they were not justnames. These folks were about
real action, real connectivity,never you know,

real leadership. It had a vision. This is the thing
that a vision. And they knewthat,

you know, it wasn't that I'm Egyptian, I'm
an African, you

know, and I think there was this idea that we were
never going to achieve what wewanted to achieve alone, and it
needed to happen in thecollective exactly

so. So then, why can't we recreate that
spirit? See, that's my point. Sowe need a moment, right? And the
moment in the 1950s and 1960swas a realization that we need
the entire continent to beliberated. That's not different
from now. We need the entirecontinent to be liberated from

(40:24):
technology colonialism. So weneed technology sovereignty. So

how do we do that?
This

is the point. So we we have the
inspiration. First thing is, weneed people. It's still about
people. It took a nursery. Tooka Ben Bell. It took a single it
took a it took, you know, itneeds a Philip, the girl, those
folks, right? Why can't we findourselves, right? Those guys
found themselves withoutinternet, without for you know,
we probably had phones, butimagine, even with the

(40:50):
challenges of an colonizedAfrica, yeah, they found
themselves, yeah, we have theadvantage of connectivity
mobility. Why can't we findourselves and work for the
collective good of thecontinent. Yeah,

it goes back again to mindset shifting. All comes
down to mindset shifting

culture.
So be comfortable in the US, butremember, because many of them
are comfortable in Russia,comfortable in in Germany,
comfortable in the UK, but theywere always dreaming

of home, of home, right? Oh, I'm with you there.
So that's I'm with you there.
There's no place like home andthis country, you say, the
continent, not just Egypt. Sono, this continent is beautiful.
Exactly. This is our home. Sohopefully, and we have to invest
in this home. So during lastyear, you know Donovan, who is
our storytelling andcommunication specialist,

(41:43):
moderated a panel with youaround redefining Africa's
narrative, and you said youexplained on that panel that
African innovators often pursuetechnology, Not for vanity work,
yeah, but to solve real, complexchallenges, and that is the
nature of our entrepreneur. SoDonovan, would like you ask me

(42:10):
to specifically ask you thisquestion to share with the
audience. Now, how do you unpackthat and how do you I mean, why
is that so important? But also,how do we create a movement that
has these amazing entrepreneursat the very center of it? You
know, I came, before I came tothe to this podcast with you, I

(42:32):
was in a room with Hilda, oh,you know, and she's a
powerhouse, and my fellows, whoare powerhouses, and all of them
were talking, they were talkingtalking, talking about, you
know, their experience ofgrowing a business in Africa.
And in spite of the difficultthey made it, and she had an
exit, and this person had anexit. And, you know, those

(42:53):
stories are somehow hidden, butalso these people are not
connected. So we have, we builtthis foundry fellowship to
connect these entrepreneurstogether. How do we get in
Africa? How do we manage to takethese amazing entrepreneurs that
you've talked about who aresolving real, complex
challenges? I mean, Hilda issolving the challenge of getting

(43:16):
money to small businesses. Howdo we how do we get all of these
entrepreneurs across Africa tostart collaborating and
connecting together and reallypushing for this agenda that
you're talking about that wouldprevent us from having
technology be a part of ourcolonial heritage,

I think, and Donovan, I think, at that
time, is packed something in mymind, right, which, in most
cases, because I have theadvantage of sort of being
connected into Phoenix and sortof that ecosystem in Arizona,
the issue, but also justUnderstanding what I see there.
If you walk into downtownPhoenix, you see a self driving

(44:04):
car, yeah. And in my head, I'mlike, Okay, this is fine, but
what is it solving? It's notsolving anything. It's just the
next step of evolution. Butthen, when I come to Kenya and I
go to Eldoret, I see a selfdriving tractor per agriculture,
agriculture Exactly. So that'sso, so true to what I was trying

(44:28):
to explain to Donovan is,unfortunately, we don't have a
luxury to sort of build stuffjust to try a technology for the
next evolution of it, becausethat's the linear trajectory for
us. It's with our finiteresources and the capabilities
that we have, we really are sortof geared towards ensuring that

(44:48):
that resource is actually fixingsomething, and that's and that's
Spirit of the Entrepreneurentrepreneur in Africa. And so I
think the issue for me has beenone is, is that? How. We fix the
challenge of of capital, andbefore I came into this podcast,
actually, we're having acolleague, a chat with my
colleagues, right to say that,you know, what is it that a VC

(45:11):
in the Bay Area is seen in anAfrican entrepreneur, that an
African government is not andthat an African bank is not
because a lot of the exits youmentioned are not local. A lot
of the exits of the investmentsare not local investments.
They're all somebody in the BayArea. I mean, what? What metric
are they using? And so thatthat, for me, is we need to fix

(45:35):
that. Yeah, if you really,where's African money, the
pension funds, the middle,because we know it's there. It's
there. The sportsmen, we have,dollar billionaire sportsmen,
the family the family offices,right? So we need to begin to
turn because they're investingin something, and they're
investing in real estate. If youlook around me, all these are
pension funds buildingapartments and condos, right?

(45:59):
Still investing in allinfrastructure, invest in
people, invest in beauty, investin these young risks. Look at
the exits. They're quick. Thereturns are fast. And so again,
to to your point around mindsetis, how do we turn the current
capital infrastructure in Africato believe its own young people
and to invest because somebodyelse

is investing. Part of that requires that we create
our own public markets. Thereyou go. So those are

the pieces that I believe we need,
we need to do, but also, who'sgoing to de risk it? Which comes
to one of my roles that I thinkin terms of an evangelist in
another way, is, how do Isurface these innovations, and
using this platform both mypresident and the officer he's

(46:47):
given me is to sort of thenbecome that microphone, because
then I don't have any bias. I'mnot benefiting from it, but it's
to show what is possible in thecontinent. My colleague and I,
Kate, always talk about doingbusiness in Africa, right? So
I've not seen anybody talking toanybody around doing business in
Africa, right?

So those are the pieces. My fellows are

exactly.
But then your fellows are doingit. But then who's doing it in a
more structured way? Becausethey're doing it in the very
hard way. Think about it, andalways say, your fellows are
looking down, right? So, sothey're busy building that, busy
building.

And then I come in and I make them look up, and I
take them to different marketson the continent, and they say,
oh, exactly. I'm a Nigerian.
I've actually never been toKenya, but there's a

piece missing dinner does that, but
dinner then has to come andstart to say, Oh my God, but
there's no infrastructure. Oh mygod, see the fellows are ready,
you know?

Oh my god, where's the infrastructure? Oh my God,
where are the airports to getpeople? You know, I say this all
the time.

This is a thing. So somebody but, but Dina
doesn't have to do that, right?
So, who makes or gets thecontinent or that part future
ready, and that's where exactlyit's government's private
sector. It's how we understandour private, public, private
partnership models that have bea little bit different. Again,
for me, it's an all in effort.

(48:15):
Everybody.

Okay, I'm gonna ask you another question. Oh god,
you know? Because when I readyour bio, they were like, Oh,
these recognitions. You know,Philip Teego is recognized by
Mozilla for under the you gotthe rise. 25 Award is one of the
kind of five advocates leadingthe development of artificial

(48:38):
intelligence, ethically,inclusively and transparently.
And I've been told thattransparency and openness is
like very important to you. Butyou were recently Kenya, on the
16th independence dayanniversary, you were awarded
the Presidential commendationfor the service that you've
given to these this country.
You've had a lot of greatrecognitions in your career, and

(49:01):
I understand that. You know,when people see you and
recognize what you're doing,that can also feed your ego. And
you know, there not many of usout there exercising leadership
and trying to create change.
It's not, it's not something yousee all the time, right? And

(49:24):
then sometimes, when yourecognize it, can feed your ego.
But how do you put that asideand continue to stand in your
purpose?

I think we've come full circle. We
always forget where we camefrom, yeah, right. So I think
for me, I It's, it's, it's myNorth Star, right? My mother
always said it and, and that'show we started this. Workers
that you have to recognize thatyou're a product of generosity,

(49:56):
and if you're religious, you'rea product of prayer, right? So
you're not. Uh, nothing happensby design, that there's
something or someone who'sgreater than you and who has
defined your purpose, and yourpurpose is higher than yourself,
and so if you have that as yournot star, I don't think it's
there's no confusion here thatis not about you, and it's never

(50:20):
about you. It's alwaysunderstanding that that's your
purpose. You You never get egobecause of your purpose. That's
what you're supposed to do. Sowhether somebody recognizes you
or not, it doesn't matter. SoI'll not do it because I didn't
get recognition. If I gotrecognition, it's okay if it
works for somebody else. And mycolleagues will tell you, I tell

(50:40):
them, use it. So for me, right?
So if it's if it helps you opena door that I got, X, please
take it with we have a joke inthe office. Take it for test
drive and see what it means,right? But, but for me, I don't
think it's that. It doesn't andit comes back to value. Yeah, it
comes back to values. So

my last question, and because you're someone who
stands strong in your purpose,and I know that you have this
purpose, and everyone who's beenlistening here, is that you have
this purpose of using technologyto advance Africa, but to also
create technologicalindependence and sovereignty,

(51:22):
which is a wonderful purpose.
But you know, we're all here fora brief moment in time. And you
know, my, my late father alwaysused to say, death is coming.
Yeah, it'll come to all of us.
We don't know when or how. So bemindful of everything you do in
the moments that you have. So myquestion to you is, with

(51:46):
whatever time that you have,what do you want your legacy of
purpose to be in Kenya? What doyou want to leave behind when
people think about Filipino whenyou're gone, what is that legacy
of purpose that you want them toimmediately say connected to
your name.

I think for me, if the one thing that I
think I do very well is toconnect people and and to have
created a common ground for thatconnectivity, that it's not that
in that room. It's not anambassador was there or a
minister was there. It waspeople who are in that room as

(52:28):
humans had a conversation, andif anything emerged from that,
then that's also that's okay. Ifthey work together for that
that's okay. If they becamefriends, that's okay. But if
they understood each other inthe way that they know that they
cannot work together, thenthat's okay. I think for me,
that I'd be happy with thatlegacy, that I was able to
connect humans at a very humanlevel. Because all these things,

(52:51):
honestly, and and you've seen,and I'm sure you even through
your career, that these areroles, right? So you keep on
changing roles. It's a stage.
They're not. Yeah, right. So, soI think at the end of the day,
in 50 or 60 plus years, if, ifthat human is still the same,
and you're able to connect thatperson and able to use their

(53:12):
life experience to advancesomebody else's life, then
that's like, it's not about me.
Tomorrow, I can leave this joband I'll still be at my coffee
house and take coffee and notbat an eye, because nothing has
changed in terms of who I am.
The role is different. At thattime, I'll be a coffee drink.
I'll be an ambassador. But thenfor me, that's the best legacy.

(53:34):
And if somebody can walk up tome and I can have that human
conversation, then that wouldbe, I think I would have
achieved a lot just by then.

That's beautiful.
And I know it to be true,because whenever I see you, you
know, you always look at me andsee what, what's going on with
Dina? Exactly. I went in heretoday and you said, Oh, you look
you look tired. Take a minute.
Have a coffee. Exactly. Relax.

These, these. These are papers. You'll
come here and call yourselfexcellency here and there.
That's fine, but

we are not our role, and they don't last
forever. Human connection iseverything,

and let me tell you, they are fleeting.
Roles are fleeting, and peopledon't understand it. That's why,
when people leave the results,nobody calls them because they
were their roles. People callyou because of your role me. You
call me because I'm your friend.
Even if you didn't like me,you'll still talk to me at some
point, right? So, but, but,yeah, but, but you're not
calling a role. So I hope,hopefully for me, that's

(54:33):
something that, and again,coming back to my mentors,
right? So it's the same thing,right? That that ultimately we
are humans, and how we treateach other is important,

and maybe that's the key to unlocking connection
in Africa, is for all of us tostart seeing each other.

I should not see somebody as a Ugandan,
you know, or a Tanzanian, andall the cliches that

come with that right move all the. And the
other ring Tanzanian

is it's a human being. You so happen to be
Tanzanian. So happen, right? Butyou're still human. With all
your your diversity, that'sstill Tanzanian. So let's remove
the cliche, the fake stuff andthose, and that's fluff.
Ultimately, I want to talk toTanzanian because you're in
Tanzania, and I think there'ssomething we can do together,

(55:25):
right? And that's a human tohuman. That's a human, right? So
that's what, that's whathappened at the borders, right?
That was butter trade, right?
So, until somebody came, came upwith me with a yardstick, you
know, we used to exchange cowsand salt,

until somebody created a border, like drew a
line,

and then I said, There's no way you can
trade salt and cows. Yeah, butat the human level, somebody
knew you have what I need, and Ihave what I need. At the human
level, can we exchange it?

And that's and you're going to change that in
Africa Exactly. We have to dothat. We have to do we have to
do it. And

I really have to do it. Thank you so no
one else will do it.

We'll do it. Thank you so much, Philip. I
appreciate you, and I appreciatethe time. Thank you so much, and
I'm I feel very humbled to alsocall you a friend. Me too.

Need to move back though.

Yeah, I will. It's coming. Thank you. Thank you so
much.

Thank you for having me.

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