January 16, 2025 • 21 mins
In Part 2 and final episode Number 3, we focus on how the interventionist assistance, particularly funds, grants and other forms of technical support can achieve tangible outcomes for the economic benefits of actually creators in the cultural creative industries of Africa-films, music, performances etc.
See events referenced in this episode:
- Kenya Collecting societies disputes over royalties (money) https://nairobinews.nation.africa/kenya-music-societies-continue-battle-over-artiste-millions/
- Nigerian music copyright management organizations dispute of issues of who should be in charge of collecting royalties (money)https://thewillnews.com/unending-dispute-between-coson-and-mcsn/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, welcome to SamiaiReportI
(00:06):
I am Samiai.
Happy New Year.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you for tuning in.
Thank you for supporting me in this podcast series.
Like you know already if you are a returning listener or if you are new to this program,
(00:32):
this program is specifically focused on promoting an African intellectual property jurisprudence.
If you want to really understand what I mean, please go back and listen to our first two
(00:54):
episodes of this series.
Now before we went on break, the Christmas break, I was talking about this topic, African
creative spaces and interventionists.
I mean, interventionists.
(01:15):
I mean organizations, both private and non-governmental and public, who actually assist, invest technical
support, money and other resources in assisting the creative industries, the cultural creative
(01:41):
industries in Africa.
In previous episodes, I mentioned organizations like WIPO, the World Intellectual Property
Organization, the European Union, the World Trade Organization and a whole lot of others.
Now in this part two, which is the final part of this particular topic, I'm going to zero
(02:06):
on the rule of collecting societies, how the interventionist funds, assistance and resources
can make deeper tangible outcomes in the creative industry, the cultural creative industries
(02:29):
of Africa.
So the problem I'm trying to highlight and probably make suggestions and call on focus
today is the issue of constant dispute in management of the resources that accrues to
(02:55):
these collecting societies.
Collecting societies are a body of creators who privately organize themselves to collect
money, to also support members of their group.
For example, in the musical works genre, you have people who come together, aggregate themselves
(03:29):
in the form of registered organizations or association with members who actually either
by payment or fees or by any other means become registered with those organizations.
And the purpose is to, because see when you create a work, for example, music, the distribution
(04:02):
of your music, the reproduction of your music might be very difficult for you to manage
as a private person.
So you need the capacity of a group that will help you.
So let me use the music industry.
(04:23):
Your music is going to be streamed in the digital spaces, on the internet, in hotels, in restaurants.
Your music could even be performed in auditoriums, both private and public spaces where money,
commercial places where people entertain others, their clients.
(04:47):
Now copyright laws, intellectual property laws, grants you the right to benefit from
either the performance or the display or the use of such music.
If your music is played on broadcasting organizations, on radio, on TV, copyright law grants you
(05:16):
that benefit of maximizing your creation, monetize your creation.
So one of the essential duties of a collecting society is to help their members collect the
(05:37):
royalties, the monies, the economic benefit that comes as a result of the use of their
works.
Although there are other things the collecting society, they do, welfare issues, probably
taking care of your members when they are sick, taking care of insurance issues and
(06:01):
also being a pressure group representing their interests with governments, organizations,
private and public.
But the point I'm drilling at today is the constant dispute in managing these royalties.
In Nigeria, for example, there's been a longstanding issue between the Musical Copyright Society
(06:29):
of Nigeria, MCSN, and the Copyright Society of Nigeria COSON.
Although the Nigerian Copyright Commission has intervened, for now, in quotes, using
their powers under the law of Nigeria, because the copyright law of Nigeria gives the Copyright
(06:56):
Commission, the Copyright Commission in Nigeria, it's the only body that can appoint a collecting
society of what we now call Copyright Management Organization, CMOS.
And in the wisdom of the Nigerian Copyright Commission, they decided that only one collecting
(07:18):
society will represent a particular creative work.
That is, in musical works or music, only one Copyright Management Organization or collecting
society is appointed by the Nigerian Copyright Commission.
(07:41):
And for now, the Copyright Commission has decided to appoint the musical Copyright Society of
Nigeria.
So that's what it is for now.
However, prior to this intervention by the NCC, the Nigerian Copyright Commission, there
(08:07):
was a lot of dispute.
Now, in the management of the money and the proprietary of who is supposed to collect
royalties on behalf of musical creators, and again, recently in Kenya, we have a report
(08:28):
of where the Kenyan musical societies are also having issues disputes.
The case is in court currently.
As reported by the Nairobi News, the dispute is also about money.
(08:49):
I won't go into details.
I'll probably post the link in these podcasts at the end of the podcast.
I'll post the link.
And then it's all about dispute of how to manage the money, the royalties collected by
two separate organizations in Kenya.
(09:13):
Now, how do we solve this problem?
Because when the CMOs, the Collecting Society, spend most of their energy and time fighting
about money, who is entitled to collect what?
(09:35):
Especially there's a lot of money going on now.
There's a lot of money coming into the creative culture industries in Africa.
And then they lose focus of the primary functions or the primary duties of a creator.
A creator's primary business is to create music, movies, perform, give us art, and
(10:09):
create more of them and benefit from its outcome, make money, and also allow society to benefit
from its educational interests or its social interests or even its health content.
(10:31):
Because music, we know, heals the soul.
We also know that watching movies also has some mental sobriety for a lot of people.
So now we are not talking medicine here.
So let's focus on law, intellectual property law.
(10:51):
So now, it becomes more intense in the digital era because unlike before, where the distribution
medium was a little bit organized or was not as wide and broad as it is now, movies,
(11:17):
were shown in theaters or in physical spaces.
Now movies are shown, are distributed on digital platforms.
They have streaming, they have the internet, we have our digital, in fact, we can watch
(11:38):
movies, we can listen to music, and our wristwatches these days, on mobile devices.
So now, you see, there would be a lot of money coming because of these distributive channels.
So you see that if we don't organize these CMOs properly, and if we don't educate them
(12:02):
properly, we will lose focus and we will deprive ourselves of the benefits that has been thonged,
the financial benefit that has been thonged by a lot of the positive interventionists
to allow to enhance our creative capacities.
(12:27):
So I have a kind of observation that apart from a proper and intelligent government oversight,
not taking over, not micromanaging, but allowing these people, these creators themselves to
(12:50):
run their businesses as private rights owners, government also should encourage the establishment
of educational institutions that will actually educate these CMOs, both in Kenya, in Nigeria,
(13:17):
Uganda, Ethiopia, in Egypt, so that they actually understand that we can also depend on technology.
I mean, we could create a technological way of capturing how realities are used, how realities
(13:44):
are derived, for instance.
I mean, if you, I'm going to use Nigeria or even Kenya now, if an artist creates music
or a movie in Nairobi, I mean, you might not be able to know how that music, how many times
(14:11):
they are used or consumed or played in our hotel, maybe 500 miles from where you reside.
So I mean, the interventionists too, who are also putting money down, would also look for
(14:33):
a means where they could invest in a technological means where instead of so much emphasis of
these copyright management organizations or collecting societies, focusing on appointing
(14:55):
people who would be there running the business of the CMOs so that probably they could manage
the million dollars who are coming in every day.
Why don't we look for a way where in the age of AI, we'll have less contact, less contact
of humans collecting these monies or managing this money.
(15:21):
I mean, I read somewhere where an app, how effective, how operational that app is where
you can capture and monitor how music is used outside the primary place of production.
(15:43):
So yeah, and I'm thinking if we reduce the emphasis of the human managers, we don't need
so many people to be officers of collecting society and traditionally too, as Africans,
(16:03):
we are used to adopting ADRs.
Before now, I mentioned in my earlier episodes how indigenous peoples or our cultural institutions
(16:25):
like the APA, the AO, I mentioned about, were managed.
They had their own system, the traditional system where when there are disputes, they
settle those disputes, what are the traditional alternative dispute resolution.
(16:48):
I don't see why we are spending so much time in the courts, in the law courts, like the
case of Nigeria, the Cossan and MCN now, Kenya, spending so much money with lawyers and wasting
their time just because of dispute of money.
Yes, there's always going to be disputes when human beings are concerned, when money is
(17:09):
concerned.
We are not saying, I'm not saying here that we would eradicate dispute.
But the problem is at this stage of our development of a cultural creative industry, when we spend
(17:32):
so much time on focusing on how to manage the proceeds from our talent, from our creative
talent, it gives an impression that the purpose of creativity is not just about the innate
(17:56):
love you have for your talent.
Yes, one has to benefit from his creative works, but also when it's about the politics
of a group of people fighting over the money that comes from other people's ingenuity,
(18:23):
it now makes me feel that here we go again, it's all about the interest of a few rather
than the interest of the larger group.
So like I said in episode two, that it is the creator that is important in the pyramid
(18:51):
of creativity.
It is the man who actually makes the song.
It is the woman who actually acts in the movie.
It is a man and a woman who is actually dancing, who actually writes the literary work, who
(19:12):
actually writes the poem, who actually does the sculpting.
It is the person who does the acts that should be the primary line, the first line of economic
benefit should be focused on the creator.
(19:32):
So when money comes from the top, it should actually trickle down to the creator first,
not middlemen because the CMOs, the collecting society managers, executives or whatever name
they have are also middlemen.
So let us shift our focus to the creators because if the creators benefit, then one of
(19:59):
the critical objectives of intellectual property, which is to reward the creator, the inventor
will be achieved.
And for Africa, IP should be our oil, it should be our gas, it should be our gold and our
(20:21):
natural resources.
It should be our focus and the management of these gods giving talent is vitally important.
So with that, I come to the end of this episode today.
I thank you for listening.
(20:44):
Next episode we shall be focusing on another area of the African intellectual property,
jurisprudence.
Thank you for listening.
I am eternally grateful.
I am Samia.
Thank you.
Hello, welcome to SamiaiReportI
(00:06):
I am Samiai.
Happy New Year.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you for tuning in.
Thank you for supporting me in this podcast series.
Like you know already if you are a returning listener or if you are new to this program,
(00:32):
this program is specifically focused on promoting an African intellectual property jurisprudence.
If you want to really understand what I mean, please go back and listen to our first two
(00:54):
episodes of this series.
Now before we went on break, the Christmas break, I was talking about this topic, African
creative spaces and interventionists.
I mean, interventionists.
(01:15):
I mean organizations, both private and non-governmental and public, who actually assist, invest technical
support, money and other resources in assisting the creative industries, the cultural creative
(01:41):
industries in Africa.
In previous episodes, I mentioned organizations like WIPO, the World Intellectual Property
Organization, the European Union, the World Trade Organization and a whole lot of others.
Now in this part two, which is the final part of this particular topic, I'm going to zero
(02:06):
on the rule of collecting societies, how the interventionist funds, assistance and resources
can make deeper tangible outcomes in the creative industry, the cultural creative industries
(02:29):
of Africa.
So the problem I'm trying to highlight and probably make suggestions and call on focus
today is the issue of constant dispute in management of the resources that accrues to
(02:55):
these collecting societies.
Collecting societies are a body of creators who privately organize themselves to collect
money, to also support members of their group.
For example, in the musical works genre, you have people who come together, aggregate themselves
(03:29):
in the form of registered organizations or association with members who actually either
by payment or fees or by any other means become registered with those organizations.
And the purpose is to, because see when you create a work, for example, music, the distribution
(04:02):
of your music, the reproduction of your music might be very difficult for you to manage
as a private person.
So you need the capacity of a group that will help you.
So let me use the music industry.
(04:23):
Your music is going to be streamed in the digital spaces, on the internet, in hotels, in restaurants.
Your music could even be performed in auditoriums, both private and public spaces where money,
commercial places where people entertain others, their clients.
(04:47):
Now copyright laws, intellectual property laws, grants you the right to benefit from
either the performance or the display or the use of such music.
If your music is played on broadcasting organizations, on radio, on TV, copyright law grants you
(05:16):
that benefit of maximizing your creation, monetize your creation.
So one of the essential duties of a collecting society is to help their members collect the
(05:37):
royalties, the monies, the economic benefit that comes as a result of the use of their
works.
Although there are other things the collecting society, they do, welfare issues, probably
taking care of your members when they are sick, taking care of insurance issues and
(06:01):
also being a pressure group representing their interests with governments, organizations,
private and public.
But the point I'm drilling at today is the constant dispute in managing these royalties.
In Nigeria, for example, there's been a longstanding issue between the Musical Copyright Society
(06:29):
of Nigeria, MCSN, and the Copyright Society of Nigeria COSON.
Although the Nigerian Copyright Commission has intervened, for now, in quotes, using
their powers under the law of Nigeria, because the copyright law of Nigeria gives the Copyright
(06:56):
Commission, the Copyright Commission in Nigeria, it's the only body that can appoint a collecting
society of what we now call Copyright Management Organization, CMOS.
And in the wisdom of the Nigerian Copyright Commission, they decided that only one collecting
(07:18):
society will represent a particular creative work.
That is, in musical works or music, only one Copyright Management Organization or collecting
society is appointed by the Nigerian Copyright Commission.
(07:41):
And for now, the Copyright Commission has decided to appoint the musical Copyright Society of
Nigeria.
So that's what it is for now.
However, prior to this intervention by the NCC, the Nigerian Copyright Commission, there
(08:07):
was a lot of dispute.
Now, in the management of the money and the proprietary of who is supposed to collect
royalties on behalf of musical creators, and again, recently in Kenya, we have a report
(08:28):
of where the Kenyan musical societies are also having issues disputes.
The case is in court currently.
As reported by the Nairobi News, the dispute is also about money.
(08:49):
I won't go into details.
I'll probably post the link in these podcasts at the end of the podcast.
I'll post the link.
And then it's all about dispute of how to manage the money, the royalties collected by
two separate organizations in Kenya.
(09:13):
Now, how do we solve this problem?
Because when the CMOs, the Collecting Society, spend most of their energy and time fighting
about money, who is entitled to collect what?
(09:35):
Especially there's a lot of money going on now.
There's a lot of money coming into the creative culture industries in Africa.
And then they lose focus of the primary functions or the primary duties of a creator.
A creator's primary business is to create music, movies, perform, give us art, and
(10:09):
create more of them and benefit from its outcome, make money, and also allow society to benefit
from its educational interests or its social interests or even its health content.
(10:31):
Because music, we know, heals the soul.
We also know that watching movies also has some mental sobriety for a lot of people.
So now we are not talking medicine here.
So let's focus on law, intellectual property law.
(10:51):
So now, it becomes more intense in the digital era because unlike before, where the distribution
medium was a little bit organized or was not as wide and broad as it is now, movies,
(11:17):
were shown in theaters or in physical spaces.
Now movies are shown, are distributed on digital platforms.
They have streaming, they have the internet, we have our digital, in fact, we can watch
(11:38):
movies, we can listen to music, and our wristwatches these days, on mobile devices.
So now, you see, there would be a lot of money coming because of these distributive channels.
So you see that if we don't organize these CMOs properly, and if we don't educate them
(12:02):
properly, we will lose focus and we will deprive ourselves of the benefits that has been thonged,
the financial benefit that has been thonged by a lot of the positive interventionists
to allow to enhance our creative capacities.
(12:27):
So I have a kind of observation that apart from a proper and intelligent government oversight,
not taking over, not micromanaging, but allowing these people, these creators themselves to
(12:50):
run their businesses as private rights owners, government also should encourage the establishment
of educational institutions that will actually educate these CMOs, both in Kenya, in Nigeria,
(13:17):
Uganda, Ethiopia, in Egypt, so that they actually understand that we can also depend on technology.
I mean, we could create a technological way of capturing how realities are used, how realities
(13:44):
are derived, for instance.
I mean, if you, I'm going to use Nigeria or even Kenya now, if an artist creates music
or a movie in Nairobi, I mean, you might not be able to know how that music, how many times
(14:11):
they are used or consumed or played in our hotel, maybe 500 miles from where you reside.
So I mean, the interventionists too, who are also putting money down, would also look for
(14:33):
a means where they could invest in a technological means where instead of so much emphasis of
these copyright management organizations or collecting societies, focusing on appointing
(14:55):
people who would be there running the business of the CMOs so that probably they could manage
the million dollars who are coming in every day.
Why don't we look for a way where in the age of AI, we'll have less contact, less contact
of humans collecting these monies or managing this money.
(15:21):
I mean, I read somewhere where an app, how effective, how operational that app is where
you can capture and monitor how music is used outside the primary place of production.
(15:43):
So yeah, and I'm thinking if we reduce the emphasis of the human managers, we don't need
so many people to be officers of collecting society and traditionally too, as Africans,
(16:03):
we are used to adopting ADRs.
Before now, I mentioned in my earlier episodes how indigenous peoples or our cultural institutions
(16:25):
like the APA, the AO, I mentioned about, were managed.
They had their own system, the traditional system where when there are disputes, they
settle those disputes, what are the traditional alternative dispute resolution.
(16:48):
I don't see why we are spending so much time in the courts, in the law courts, like the
case of Nigeria, the Cossan and MCN now, Kenya, spending so much money with lawyers and wasting
their time just because of dispute of money.
Yes, there's always going to be disputes when human beings are concerned, when money is
(17:09):
concerned.
We are not saying, I'm not saying here that we would eradicate dispute.
But the problem is at this stage of our development of a cultural creative industry, when we spend
(17:32):
so much time on focusing on how to manage the proceeds from our talent, from our creative
talent, it gives an impression that the purpose of creativity is not just about the innate
(17:56):
love you have for your talent.
Yes, one has to benefit from his creative works, but also when it's about the politics
of a group of people fighting over the money that comes from other people's ingenuity,
(18:23):
it now makes me feel that here we go again, it's all about the interest of a few rather
than the interest of the larger group.
So like I said in episode two, that it is the creator that is important in the pyramid
(18:51):
of creativity.
It is the man who actually makes the song.
It is the woman who actually acts in the movie.
It is a man and a woman who is actually dancing, who actually writes the literary work, who
(19:12):
actually writes the poem, who actually does the sculpting.
It is the person who does the acts that should be the primary line, the first line of economic
benefit should be focused on the creator.
(19:32):
So when money comes from the top, it should actually trickle down to the creator first,
not middlemen because the CMOs, the collecting society managers, executives or whatever name
they have are also middlemen.
So let us shift our focus to the creators because if the creators benefit, then one of
(19:59):
the critical objectives of intellectual property, which is to reward the creator, the inventor
will be achieved.
And for Africa, IP should be our oil, it should be our gas, it should be our gold and our
(20:21):
natural resources.
It should be our focus and the management of these gods giving talent is vitally important.
So with that, I come to the end of this episode today.
I thank you for listening.
(20:44):
Next episode we shall be focusing on another area of the African intellectual property,
jurisprudence.
Thank you for listening.
I am eternally grateful.
I am Samia.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.