This week we are joined by a fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry, which is definitely a first for us. Dr. Michelle Lynch is an expert in the field of sustainability, and while her work focuses her attention on experimental research to improve the future for us all, it was when she put her own life under the microscope and applied the same curiosity and experimentation to her relationship with alcohol, that she improved the future for herself.
Dr. Michelle Lynch
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmkl/
https://www.instagram.com/michepreneur/
Our 30-day group programme:
https://www.cleanlifecoaching.org/aff-group
The podcast home page
https://podcast.alcoholfreedomfinders.com/
Justine Clark
https://justineclarktherapy.co.uk/
https://www.instagram.com/wellwithjustine/
Barry Condon
https://www.cleanlifecoaching.org/
https://www.instagram.com/clean.life.coaching/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-condon-577b85294/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Alcohol Freedom Finders.
This week we are joined by afellow of the Royal Society of
Chemistry, which is definitely afirst for us.
Dr.
Michelle Lynch is an expert inthe field of sustainability, and
while her work focuses herattention on experimental
research to improve the futurefor us all, it was when she put
her own life under themicroscope and applied the same
(00:20):
curiosity and experimentation toher relationship with alcohol,
that she improved the future forherself.
Let's hear all about how she didit.
Barry Condon (00:28):
Welcome to, alcohol Freedom Finders with me,
Barry Condon and my fantastic,colleague Justin Clark.
Today, we're excited to havewith this, Dr.
Michelle Lynch, who is, businessowner in the sustainable
technologies field and, is a,exponent for, the alcohol
freedom lifestyle and is, takingon a new phase of her life,
(00:51):
moving around the world and isjoining us today from Mosca,
where potentially she, might betaking up her primary residence.
So, welcome to you, Michelle.
Nice to have you with us.
Dr Michelle Lynch (01:00):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Justine Clark (01:02):
here.
And I'm so, I mean, I don't knowthe first thing about Muscat, so
I have to hear about that too.
But first of all, mostimportantly, what led you to
becoming alcohol free?
And, what, tell us about yourjourney.
How did you end up where youare?
Dr Michelle Lynch (01:16):
Sure.
And, I think it's fair to saythat I never had a
straightforward relationshipwith alcohol.
It was something that, there wasa little bit of a love hate
relationship with it that,
Barry Condon (01:26):
relationship.
Dr Michelle Lynch (01:27):
sometimes I drank it and I felt better and I
felt happier, and I.
kind of the, kind of socialenergy and glue that you might
expect from it.
And other times when it justbecame a bit of a burden.
And I think that was the casefor a long time actually, for
almost the entire journey withit.
And I was always, tr attemptingto have some long breaks from
(01:48):
it.
And I was that kind of person interms of the drinking pattern.
So I would have very long breaksfrom it.
But when I did drink it, it, itdidn't have this, this sort of,
kind of feeling of it's justgonna be something, I have one
drink or two drinks, and then Ifeel content and I go away from
it.
It never left a feeling ofcontentment.
and so it, it kind of became anissue that it became too many
(02:12):
drinks at one time.
and then all the negativeimpacts of that.
Yeah,
Barry Condon (02:19):
and.
Dr Michelle Lynch (02:19):
that kind of went on for a long time prior to
me kind of reach, kind ofgetting to the point, you know,
like a car hitting the brakesor, or kind of slowing down and
pressing the brakes and saying,actually, I might like to just
stop.
Barry Condon (02:33):
That's interesting.
I mean, I, I've, I've notthought of it like that before.
The, the, but you're, you'reright, the, the.
The way that it's, that alcoholsomething that never satisfies.
It's, it, it's in a, and it'skind of an innate thing in, in
dopamine itself.
That, that is kind of the, the,the, the driver of, of why we
drink, is dopamine.
Is, is, is we sort of think ofit as the reward, but it's
(02:54):
actually more of a, a reminderto do more.
And it's, you know, it, itmotivates us to keep going, keep
going, keep going.
And it's meant to be, more of athing that, that, you know.
A, a, a survival mechanism forthings that are scarce.
But when alcohol's everywhere,it's, it's, it's, it, it can be
something that, that, that we,we latch onto and is, and can be
very dangerous.
So, so when did you decide,okay, I need to do something
(03:15):
different or, take a differentapproach or how did you get into
the, the change itself?
Dr Michelle Lynch (03:20):
So, it really came about, just before the
pandemic began.
and I was on a huge health driveactually, and I hadn't had
alcohol for months.
And this was in, 2020 and of.
Really fit and really happy andhealthy.
And then I put my house up tosale, made a relocation from
London to the West Midlands.
(03:41):
And, it, it was multiple things,that were stressful at the same
time, and, complications that Iwasn't expecting with that move,
bereavements and other thingsgoing on, that once I started
drinking again, the strangething was, is that after long
periods of not drinking.
The rebound effect was quitepronounced, and it's something I
really noticed over thosefollowing years when, I was
(04:05):
also, because it was in my lateforties, perimenopausal, and
then menopausal.
And I think that, you know,there's some evidence, you know,
that that can affect all theseneurotransmitter levels and we
haven't really linked, or Ihadn't linked.
Hormones has grownneurotransmitters until, recent,
you know, recently when I didwork around it.
But essentially, this kind ofstopping and starting was
(04:26):
getting much more pronounced andI was noticing and thinking
that's really strange how thesignals coming to me are getting
stronger every time I try tostop.
So actually I'm probably justgonna have to completely stop.
That's what, led me to startlooking into people who don't
drink at all.
So I looked a lot at Instagramthings.
I read books by people whostopped drinking.
I read books by people who werevery frank and honest about
(04:48):
being childhood alcoholics orpeople with alcohol use
disorder.
and so I learned a lot aboutthat before and after.
And what really got me actuallywas this before and after thing,
before and after photos, beforeand after stories.
And I looked at it and said, Iwant a before and and after
story.
And I particularly want my afterstory.
Justine Clark (05:06):
I, I love that so much.
And I, I keep thinking of that,that is it Mick Jagger song, I
Can't Get No Satisfaction, andit's like, yeah, I, I really
resonate with what you're sayingthere because.
You know, when you start, I, Ireckon as soon as you realize
that this isn't very satisfyingand, and, and you're not quite
getting enough, and that you'regonna need more, as soon as that
(05:29):
starts being a thought that youhave around any substance, but
alcohol in this instance, Ithink it's game over.
I think it, it's diminishingreturns.
And I noticed as well, after an18 month break when I went back
to it, that it was, you know.
I, I, I knew then and there thatthis, was never gonna be enough
(05:49):
that was gonna make me feelsatisfied.
It was never gonna do what itused to do.
And that there was gonna have tobe a different way forward.
So how did you find your wayforward this time that stuck.
Dr Michelle Lynch (06:00):
It was, it was a mixture of really, leaning
into the curiosity.
So Connor's, maybe a year and ahalf before I stopped.
I was reading, books, listeningto audio books and other things
that, Described other people'sjourneys.
And I started to really leaninto that.
What would we like if we didn'tdrink at all?
And then, looking at lots ofposts and seeing that other
(06:22):
people, were showing what they'dlearned once we stopped
drinking, all the things they'dlearned and all the things
they'd improved.
And so, on the one hand that wasgoing on, and on the other hand,
I was looking at me, I was at mybody.
I was looking at my ability towork all of it, you know, kind
of suboptimal to say the least,and at the heaviest weight I'd
ever been in 2022.
(06:44):
and also things like, getting acroaky voice because the weight
and the alcohol was doing thingslike drying my throat and I need
to train for one of my jobs isa, is a trainer.
15 minutes into a five hoursession, my voice was getting
dry and cro so it was, it hadbecome practically, it was
unworkable.
it was having a severe impact onmy physical and mental health.
(07:07):
and I could see a way forwardand I could see what was on the
other side.
And so I stopped.
I started looking at it asproblems on this side of the
equations and benefits on theother side.
So that's what maybe jumpthrough the, jump through the
portal and say, well, I'm notgoing back there.
Because even though there's allthese little triggers and things
saying, oh, wouldn't it be nice?
(07:27):
Don't you remember that pub?
Don't you remember this glass?
Don't you remember that wine youliked?
At least have triggers.
And look at these pretty bows onthis bottle.
One, look at your friends havingfun with this.
What are you doing?
Come back to us.
Come back.
And it's like, no, I know it'snot real.
So got grounded in reality andstayed on.
Stayed on the safe side of.
Barry Condon (07:48):
That's brilliant.
That's brilliant.
And, and so how was that?
Did, I mean, did you just sortof from one day to the next in
the end, you know, did you sortof draw a line in the sound,
okay today, that's it, I'm done.
Or, or, or, or was it a gradualthing?
from then
Dr Michelle Lynch (08:00):
It was like, it was like stop starts.
It was a series of in 2022, kindof stopped for three months,
then went back and itimmediately became a problem
within a day.
It's like, it was just strangehow I didn't go back and have
one drink.
I went back and I had maybe 12drinks over that weekend and
thinking, well, I haven't drankfor months.
Surely my tolerance andeverything would've adjusted,
(08:22):
and I'd only have one.
But no, it's this, it's thisvicious rebound.
and then it was like, okay, I'llstop again.
And then I think there weremaybe two more times in 2022.
Ending in, it was around, it wasaround August and then another
three week break.
One conference, one sip of aglass of wine, led to another
two bottles that weekend.
And then I woke up on theSaturday, the morning, September
(08:44):
10th and said, that's it.
No more, absolutely no more.
I can't make this work.
I can't, I can't adjust or doany of those magical things.
Some done and that was my, I'mdone moment and it's unthinkable
for me now to go back and do itagain.
It's not to say it won't everhappen because I sense it,
sometimes I sense it like justkind of like, not, it's almost
(09:08):
like it's kind of trying to finda weak point.
It's going around like thisclose and trying to find a
little weak point to get in.
Yeah.
It's really creepy when I.
I'm aware and I just, andmonitor my triggers, but I
don't, I couldn't ever seemyself wanting willingly to go
back to that.
Justine Clark (09:25):
talking about this.
'cause I, I really, I, when youare talking, I can really feel
myself having those thoughts.
I, I really, I, it's like,
Dr Michelle Lynch (09:33):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (09:34):
reach out and get that.
I could just stop at that bottleshop and, and buy that wine just
as easy.
I, I could actually hold a wineglass that's full of, with that
cold wine in it, and I couldjust drink it.
I know what it tastes like.
It's, and it's almost like, afear and a repulsion and
excitement and it, like, me ofthat standing on the edge of a,
(09:56):
of a, of a height and going, Icould actually go, you know,
it's like, Yeah.
But it's, it's,
Dr Michelle Lynch (10:04):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (10:04):
actually scarier.
It's scarier than being on aclifftop because it's, it's so,
it could come in the room at anyminute.
It's always, you know, it isever present once alcohol's been
there.
and I don't think peoplerealize, because we've all drunk
by auto enrollment for our, ourwhole lives.
you know, since we are youngadults, it's been in every
social, social situation atevery opportunity.
(10:27):
So we're actually having tochoose to say no rather than the
other way round.
so I love, I love how you'retalking about that.
If you're looking to take backcontrol of your drinking, why
don't you join our AlcoholFreedom Finders 30 day group
program.
It's a great place to start.
Because we approach it as anexperiment, rather than a
(10:47):
challenge.
Whereas, as well as getting agreat detox, you learn the
science and the psychology aboutwhy you're drunk in the first
place.
So whether you want to stopaltogether, or just become a
more mindful and moderatedrinker, why don't you give it a
crack?
Use the link in the show notesto sign up to our next 30 day
program, and you won't regretit.
(11:08):
Because no one ever woke up inthe morning and said, I wish I'd
had more to drink last night,did they?
Back to the episode.
let's talk about some positive things.
Now.
Let's talk about like, you havedone this, what's on the other,
what's been on the other sideof, of, of this now?
What are some of the positivesthat you've experienced?
Dr Michelle Lynch (11:27):
so yeah,
Barry Condon (11:28):
yeah.
Dr Michelle Lynch (11:28):
lots of positives and,
Barry Condon (11:30):
And,
Dr Michelle Lynch (11:30):
everything, everything has just got so much
better.
I, I studied for a battery MBA,successfully studied over kind
of two, three months, gained abattery MBA, expanded my
business.
Real desire to expand mytraining business.
it's one of the most satisfyingthings for me is teaching people
and mentoring, and preparingpeople for their careers.
(11:51):
so I've been, very successful inthe last 18 months, expanding
that.
I'm traveling.
I obviously sold my, sold myproperty in, in the uk and this
has been something I wanted todo for several years.
Barry Condon (12:03):
years.
Dr Michelle Lynch (12:04):
And finally kind of made it all the things
are in storage.
I'm, I'm now traveling aroundand investigating where else I
might like to, to stay for a fewmonths of the year, and meeting
new people.
And the idea really was to kindof be exposed to lots of
different viewpoints andcultures and places.
because perhaps one of thethings that alcohol's very good
(12:25):
at doing is isolating us andtelling us not to expand our
world and to, Reduce ourexpectations.
That might not be the case foreveryone.
I know lots of people travel andthey have alcohol in different
countries, but, it doesn't workfor everyone.
So, yeah, I've been able tofulfill a of long term
ambitions, since I stopped,drinking.
Barry Condon (12:44):
And have you, have you found it easy to interact
with these new people?
You know, do people ask you, youknow, oh, oh, do you not drink?
Or, why do you not drink?
And, and, and have you found aneasy way to, to deal with that?
Dr Michelle Lynch (12:57):
Hmm.
Barry Condon (12:57):
or was that something you had to learn?
Dr Michelle Lynch (12:59):
Well, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's an
interesting one becauseinitially,
Barry Condon (13:02):
initially,
Dr Michelle Lynch (13:03):
a lot of people breathe a sigh of relief
that I didn't drink anymore, butsome people.
kind of, well, can't you justhave a middle?
Can't you just have two?
And it was like, well, what doestwo mean?
I, I, I really sort of, invitepeople to think about what
they're saying a bit more nowwhen they say, just have two,
because two doesn't, two wentfrom being two units to being
two glasses.
(13:24):
And we know that those glassesnow are sometimes 250 meals.
So two is actually six units, atleast, you know, it can be six
units.
So, No, I don't buy into thisidea that, you know, I can't
have two.
So I had to explain that topeople and, and it, some people
were distanced, they distancedthemselves for that reason,
(13:44):
which is fine.
That's, that's their decision.
and so one of the challenges is,is to get involved with people
who are happy to have timeswhen, and I, I don't mind if
people drink around me.
I really don't have a problemwith it.
But obviously it's, it's, it's,it is different.
So, Yeah, it's changed my sociallife.
I do interact with people whoare not drinking.
(14:04):
I prefer in honesty to do that.
and it's interesting when I cometo regions where it's not, a
popular part of culture toexplain that even though I'm a
Western lady, that when I comeinto a hotel, I don't want to be
directed to the, to the bar.
that I actually want to sit inthe parts of the hotel and to be
in the, into the parts wherethere's no alcohol being drunk.
So, it.
Barry Condon (14:25):
So,
Dr Michelle Lynch (14:25):
an image that as western people we have that
we drink alcohol.
and it takes some explainingthat actually not everybody
does, and I'm.
Justine Clark (14:33):
Isn't that fascinating, that it's a western
culture thing as well, and thatas travelers, other cultures
identify us as drinkers, theymust just think that we are,
vulgar and.
all those, you know, what, whichwe are, I think, and, and, but
anyway, enough about that.
I'm, I'm just interested to knownow that you're on the other
(14:54):
side and, and I think people whoare still toying with the idea
of moderation or stoppingentirely, for you is something
that's surprising that youdidn't realize would happen for
you on the other side?
For me it is, I've reallynoticed how nature.
seems, I used to feel like I waswalking in nature and I get that
(15:17):
get, oh, I'm walking in nature.
That's nice.
But I didn't notice how actuallynature comes and communicates to
you, through, you know, ripplingwater.
Or a breeze.
And a leaf because we are notpresent to the noise that I hear
about.
Oh, I need a drink, or Should goand get a drink, or I've got a
hangover.
There's more space for natureto, to come in and be soothing.
(15:42):
What surprises have there beenfor you in your life, you didn't
expect?
Dr Michelle Lynch (15:47):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
As as we're both hikers, I canfully appreciate that feeling
of, being able to soak up natureand even I notice animals a lot
more, actually.
I notice how.
Animals communicate and birdsand, you know, feeling more
connected to, you know, natureand wildlife.
(16:07):
And that's, that's wonderful.
it's also, it was also somethingthat prompted me to stop was
this promise that.
You could pick up a glass ofwater or you know, a glass of a
non-alcoholic drink and enjoy itjust as much and relax just as
much.
And I, I had, I had toexperience it to believe it, but
it was just, it's just so true.
(16:28):
And it's, it's just so funnythat, that, It, it maybe it's a
bit like when you stop smokingand I've
Barry Condon (16:34):
it's a
Dr Michelle Lynch (16:34):
really smoked, but if you know that
feeling of just holding a pen orsomething, it's, it is true that
I can have a lovely,non-alcoholic drink and come
away feeling just as relaxedthat as the entire, it was all
the other bits of the experiencebesides the alcohol were
actually making it nice.
So that, that was a pleasantsurprise.
And that, so that's something Iwould invite anybody who's
curious to think about.
(16:56):
what else?
There's also the, ability to seemy personality as it is without
alcohol Is and to see my traitsbecause, traits because, you
can't blame alcohol for anythinganymore.
You can't attribute things toalcohol anymore.
So whatever.
I'm like, and my thoughtprocesses, my behavior all has
to be attributed to somethingelse.
(17:17):
and it wasn't long.
Interest after stopped drinking,I found out that I had, combined
a DHD and after that, that I hadautistic traits.
So now I'm having to go back andalcohol isn't really the main
thing anymore.
It's, it's going back andlooking at my life as, framing
everything from, from thatperspective and seeing that
(17:38):
actually a lot of the strugglesI had weren't, weren't, they
weren't, so alcohol wasn't thecause.
It was actually one of.
A kind of a bad solution to theright problem, but now I, I
look, yeah, it gave me theability to go away and find the
right, not necessarilysolutions, but, but, you know,
lifestyle and, confidence inbeing who I am.
(18:00):
So I don't apologize for who I'manymore.
I don't tell people, well, thefact that I'm interested in a
hundred different things and thefact that I'll go very deep when
I do look at things, I'm notgoing to apologize for that
anymore.
It's me and, I can be flexible,but I'm not going to use a
substance or do something tomask who I am.
Barry Condon (18:19):
I love that.
I love that.
And, and, and I think thatthere's lot of, new
understanding now in aroundneurodivergency and, and also
it's, it's relationship to even,yeah.
To, to drink, to drinking.
you, have you, have you lookedat that yourself?
Have, have you looked at the,maybe now looking back, you
know.
as you said, you know, the, theidea, often that drink is a
(18:43):
solution, a bad solutionperhaps, but it's not
necessarily the problem Peoplehear, I've got a drink problem.
Well, no, the, the problem ismaybe something else.
and I, have you been able tosort of link that to, the, the,
the, the neurodivergency thatyou're now becoming aware
Dr Michelle Lynch (18:56):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I, I, I think that, andI'm not obviously any kind of
expert on neuroscience oranything like this.
Initial understanding is that ina, in some people who are
neurodivergent or have a DHD,that there is, science around
the dopamine mechanisms notworking optimally and other
(19:18):
neurotransmitters likeneurocrine.
and, and the fact that as youget older, especially as a, as a
woman when you reach theperimenopause and menopause,
that your neurotransmitters arechanging quite radically.
So people think of us, at my a alady at my age as, having
hormone changes, but actuallythe hormones, and, things like
dopamine are working together intandem.
(19:40):
So, what I, So.
The neurodivergence, the, astage of my life, all of that
was going to play to, a kind of,push my cravings.
And so it was another goodreason to stop drinking, but
also to look at what I can do tomanage those and what, what can
I do to balance them?
So with a mixture of therapiesand medications and lifestyle to
(20:02):
get a, a better solution tomanaging.
Brain chemistry.
and yeah, so it's, it's, it'sgreat to be in that position of
awareness and to understand whyit's so important not to do
things that will push my brainchemistry and my, hormones and
neurotransmitters in, into acomplete state of imbalance.
That's just not good for me.
Justine Clark (20:20):
Yeah, I, I, I.
I couldn't agree with you morepersonally.
I found it so frustrating as a,a wellbeing therapist and
someone who'd had, you know,illness in my childhood and
beyond, why would I be doingsomething that was making me
feel unwell and I knew it wasmaking me feel unwell.
I mean, we all know that ahangover mate is, is us being
(20:42):
unwell.
I, I felt like I was not, youknow how you've got that feeling
that you are, if only I could dothat one thing, then everything
would be okay.
Well now, now I've done that onething.
I've done the one thing.
So, like you said earlier,
Dr Michelle Lynch (20:56):
Yes.
Justine Clark (20:57):
be
Dr Michelle Lynch (20:57):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (20:58):
And I I
Dr Michelle Lynch (20:59):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (20:59):
you, how does it play forward?
'cause now all of a sudden I'm,I'm playing it forward.
I'm going, there's nothing tostop me living a really long,
healthy life because everythingI do now is proactively doing
things like, oh.
What could I eat that's gonnaimprove things?
What can I listen to that'sgonna improve?
Like, I'm, I'm not saying I'msome kind of fully formed
perfect creature.
(21:20):
I do love my chocolate and Iwill eat it.
and I still have an aches andpains, but I feel like I can see
the path ahead now and have somechance of following it
somewhere.
What about you playing itforward?
Where do you see yourselfheading that maybe you didn't
think possible in the past?
Dr Michelle Lynch (21:40):
it's, it's a mixture of, on one hand, looking
at what I want to achieve andgoing for it and having the
means and the energy and theclarity in my thinking to
achieve it.
But it's also getting rid ofthat, over confidence and
overoptimism that you sometimeshave.
Like, I think I saw a meme orinternet post once that said
like, you know, with alcoholyou'll create all kinds of
(22:03):
dreams that you think you canachieve.
And then.
When you're sober, you know,you'll realize you weren't
achieving any of them, but, butyou, you know, you might have
fewer and you might have lesskind of, unrealistic dreams.
You'll have realistic dreams andyou be able to achieve
Justine Clark (22:18):
Hmm.
Dr Michelle Lynch (22:18):
those.
I, I think that's the way I'mseeing it, that I'm actually
trying to remove my overwhelm,'cause overwhelm, was part of my
issues in the past, but becauseI like to look at so many
different things, I'm interestedone of.
Downsides to that is that youcan easily get overwhelmed.
So I have, I have sort of two orthree top realistic ambitions,
(22:39):
like training and kind of,learning more about specific
topics and just being content.
So actually been content to havefewer things on my but to do me
well.
And alongside that, to have anice life, to have a good work
life balance.
So, you know, going out innature more, enjoying some more
hobbies, taking up writing.
(23:00):
I like to write, I like to blog.
And, yeah, so, so trying to geta bit more of a life work
balance as well.
Justine Clark (23:07):
To circle back to what you said about going, I
just want to keep things, youknow, do less'cause I suffer
with overwhelm, but you'retelling me that you're living in
Moscot and that you want to beable to travel from, place to
place and you are writing and
Dr Michelle Lynch (23:22):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (23:24):
far more possibly than you, you could ever have
imagined.
And, and you are thinking thatthat's not doing much.
Dr Michelle Lynch (23:32):
Yeah.
Yes, indeed.
And, it's, it's one of my thingsthat, yeah, I, I just have so
many things that I want to doand, I want to do just enough of
them.
That makes life fun withoutbeing overwhelmed.
So one of the things I have islike, try just try to pack a
case, you know, and getting fromone place to another without
(23:52):
losing things or forgettingthings and kind of having too
much with me and then stillthinking, oh, I still don't have
that thing with me that Iwanted.
So one of the, one of the funnyend things about moving around
is, having to get used to nothaving so much stuff with you.
which is, yeah, it's, if you areused to having everything in a
house and everything in itsright place, then, then that's
(24:12):
something to get used to.
Justine Clark (24:13):
I have to
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:13):
but, yeah, I'm sure that
Justine Clark (24:15):
that I literally just moved countries and I.
Spent six months waiting for
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:20):
mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (24:21):
shipping to come over and hand on heart the week
before it arrived.
I'm like, I don't care if noneof that stuff arrives.
I just don't need the stuffanymore.
I think that's, that's got a
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:33):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (24:33):
for, for alcohol as well, that actually it is the
equivalent of having lots ofstuff around us because it sort
of packs us in nice and tightlyinto a little mental box.
And actually we don't need thestuff anymore.
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so it is true, but eventhough, you know, I, I'm talking
about going from a house, like athree bedroom house to a
suitcase.
So 30 kilos of belongings comingwith you is still quite a lot to
take around frequently, but 30kilos of belongings versus an
entire house.
So.
Yeah, we, we do tend to, tocluster our lives up a lot and
(25:13):
to, to lose a lot of energy thatall the energy leakage to places
that's really unproductive.
So what I'm trying to do is havekind of energy that's well used,
you and, and enough leftover to,do the work, all the self-care.
So I'm sure as, as a wellbeingtherapist, Justine, you can
understand.
But if you use 99 or 105% ofyour energy on work and on
(25:33):
travel.
you, what do you have left overto look after yourself.
And actually sometimes I think,isn't there, isn't there
something about, hungry?
It's a halt.
It's hungry, angry, lonely,tired, isn't it?
The four reasons why people justgo and have a drink because
they're hungry, angry, lonely,or tired, and.
that's what you get if you'reoverwhelmed.
So for me, that's a real part ofmy self care is to try to leave
(25:57):
a good 20% or a chunk of energyfor just relaxing and taking
care of myself.
Barry Condon (26:04):
great.
And I think that's, that's partof the, the difficulty or for me
it was the main difficulty thatillusion that, that it does give
you that relief.
Briefly and, and is, and isactually sort of spiraling you
down.
but to, give the space for otherthings, to.
to fulfill you and, give otherareas of life a chance to give
(26:25):
you that enjoyment iscounterintuitive because, my
only relief at the end of theday is to have a drink and then
I can relax or the only way Ican feel confident enough to be
in public or be with people andsocialize or do a certain thing,
can be to have a couple ofdrinks and then I can.
You know, be the person that Ithink I ought to be.
to step away from that feelsvery counterintuitive, but when
you do, it gives space for youto be that more authentic person
(26:49):
and, and, and feel, act, genuineconfidence.
how have you, now, know, how doyou now feel, in yourself,
confidence wise?
Do you feel, more confident or,or, or, more comfortable in, in
social situations, for instance?
Dr Michelle Lynch (27:04):
I, I think I'm more aware of my discomfort
in social situations, which eventhough it doesn't sound
positive, is better to know thatand to do something about it
than to pretend for the rest ofyour life that you are
comfortable and use a drink ofalcohol or something, and.
To, to kind of not be genuine.
So I'm living a genuine life,which is actually, I'm gonna
(27:25):
turn down 90% of the socialoccasions I'm offered.
and also the, to really enjoy mytime alone.
And I really do enjoy itbecause, you know, I like to
research and I actually wouldreally like to just take up
painting.
I was never something I wastraditionally associated being
very good at.
But, I really enjoy art andculture so.
(27:46):
Yeah, I'd be quite happy insteadof going out to just sit and
draw and paint or write orlisten to music.
And I love music as well, and Ilove singing.
So, there's multiple ways to getto deal with the halt, factors.
And, so without alcohol, I'mfree to kind of go around and
try them all and I might trythings and go actually focus on.
(28:08):
Things that have a higher, kindof joy benefit because really
what we want out out of life isjoy and contentment.
And that chart, there's a chartfrom, I'm sure you know, the,
the lady, Jen Lee Hurst, whichshe shows this chart of what
happens to your dopamine whenyou drink and it's spiking up a
huge spike and then this hugelong tail of suboptimal, as
opposed to finding things thatjust give you mini.
(28:31):
Many enjoyment moments, manymoments of joy all day long.
I mean, who would, who canresist many moments of joy all
day long rather than has andstressful day long, and a drink
at night?
Justine Clark (28:41):
Couldn't, I couldn't.
Yep.
Yep.
Dr Michelle Lynch (28:43):
That's how I like to look at it.
Justine Clark (28:44):
And if you
Dr Michelle Lynch (28:45):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (28:45):
you speak about music.
Well, painting and drawingreleases a hormone we don't get
elsewhere, which is the joy of,learning how to make mistakes
and then feel that it's comingalong.
I think it's acetylcholine isthe.
Is that the,
Dr Michelle Lynch (29:01):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (29:02):
hormone.
it's, it's Italian word for itis
Dr Michelle Lynch (29:05):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (29:06):
which is the movement of making mistakes,
actually creating somethingorganic and beautiful.
My art teacher will tell me off.
I haven't said it right, butanyway.
And then the second one, ofcourse, with singing and humming
and chanting, it's all aboutresetting the vagus nerve, which
is our.
Social engagement, part of ournervous system, that that
naturally is gonna elevate,elevate us, and keep us in
(29:29):
connection.
So the things you're mentioninggenuinely are going to make us
feel better.
So rather than chasing somethingthat is going to only make us
feel poorly in the long run is ano brainer.
Well, it is for us three.
and I hope more people can, geton board along with us.
And we like to wrap up by askingone final question, which is.
(29:50):
It may be difficult, which iswhat three words resonate most
for you about being an alcoholfreedom finder?
Dr Michelle Lynch (29:58):
Yeah, this, this was a.
So many, I'm sure you canimagine.
What should I come up with?
Justine Clark (30:04):
I.
Dr Michelle Lynch (30:05):
so I ended up with, awareness, energy, and
boundaries.
Those are my three.
Barry Condon (30:12):
Yeah.
I
Dr Michelle Lynch (30:12):
yeah.
Barry Condon (30:13):
to expand on on those?
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Lynch (30:14):
So the awareness is, kind of awareness
of my, of my, of my standards,of my values.
And, we didn't sort of go intoit at all, but actually I
understand my value system nowmuch better than I ever did.
And I set boundaries andstandards much better than I
ever did.
And, you know, I willcommunicate them and say, this
is okay for me.
This is not okay for me.
(30:35):
but, you know, somebody severelyviolates my boundaries and.
You know, it behaves in a waythat I don't think is
commensurate with good,professional or good, good
friendship then, then I willstep away from it and I'm quite
happy to close doors and say,this isn't for me right now and
unless something changes, theawareness is also yeah, of my,
(30:56):
how I feel, my triggers.
I'm very aware of my triggersand managing them and either
relieving myself fromsituations.
Kind of doing some sort ofself-soothing.
So, so that would be kind of theaware, probably the awareness
and the boundaries togetheractually.
but the energy is, is, as we'vespoken about, you have so much
(31:18):
more energy, and so many morepossibilities of doing nice
things with it.
So yeah, those are the threethings since today at this
moment, those are the three thatI, I'd, I'd stick with.
Justine Clark (31:29):
get to choose what you expend your energy on
rather than it being chosen foryou.
'cause you're sort of making youpre-selecting that my energy's
gonna go here and then it'sgonna go here, so I'm gonna have
to go here.
Whereas now we can choose like,oh, I'm feeling a little bit
depleted.
It's time to rest.
Or, oh, I've got a bit moreenergy than I thought.
(31:49):
What should I do for the nexthalf hour?
It that is a game changer.
I.
Energy.
I love
Dr Michelle Lynch (31:54):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (31:55):
such a great
Dr Michelle Lynch (31:55):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
and I would honestly say topeople, don't ever worry about
filling your time because it's afunny thing that people say to
me, well, what do you do ifyou're not drinking?
It's like a hundred things thatI always wanted to do.
so, I think it's getting overthat sort of kind of
(32:15):
embarrassment to say to peopleI'm not gonna drink that you
might initially have.
And then, sort of showing, youknow, you, you show, don't tell.
I've clearly shown in the lasttwo years how much nicer my life
is and how happy I'm, and betterchoices I'm making.
So, yeah,
Barry Condon (32:32):
so,
Dr Michelle Lynch (32:33):
it's working.
So that's
Barry Condon (32:34):
Working
Dr Michelle Lynch (32:35):
could really say.
Barry Condon (32:36):
great.
Michelle, it's been greattalking to you.
if people are interested infinding out more, about you or
sustainable, Technologies, andhow you might be able to mentor
them, or, or tell'em a bit aboutMuscat, you know, where, where
can people get hold of you?
Dr Michelle Lynch (32:51):
so they can, follow me on LinkedIn if they
like, they can follow Mycompany's Enable future.
So, if you look for, for me orfor Enable future on LinkedIn,
you'll, you can find me there,or you can find me on, socials
is m Misha Prana.
So Misha Prana, that's someInstagram and Threads best ones.
Justine Clark (33:11):
Well, been, it is been an absolute pleasure
Barry Condon (33:14):
Great.
Thanks very much.
Justine Clark (33:16):
I, I actually feel like we could be talking,
go on and talk for hours.
So thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Dr Michelle Lynch (33:22):
You're welcome.
This is Alcohol Freedom Finders.
This week we are joined by afellow of the Royal Society of
Chemistry, which is definitely afirst for us.
Dr.
Michelle Lynch is an expert inthe field of sustainability, and
while her work focuses herattention on experimental
research to improve the futurefor us all, it was when she put
her own life under themicroscope and applied the same
(00:20):
curiosity and experimentation toher relationship with alcohol,
that she improved the future forherself.
Let's hear all about how she didit.
Barry Condon (00:28):
Welcome to, alcohol Freedom Finders with me,
Barry Condon and my fantastic,colleague Justin Clark.
Today, we're excited to havewith this, Dr.
Michelle Lynch, who is, businessowner in the sustainable
technologies field and, is a,exponent for, the alcohol
freedom lifestyle and is, takingon a new phase of her life,
(00:51):
moving around the world and isjoining us today from Mosca,
where potentially she, might betaking up her primary residence.
So, welcome to you, Michelle.
Nice to have you with us.
Dr Michelle Lynch (01:00):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Justine Clark (01:02):
here.
And I'm so, I mean, I don't knowthe first thing about Muscat, so
I have to hear about that too.
But first of all, mostimportantly, what led you to
becoming alcohol free?
And, what, tell us about yourjourney.
How did you end up where youare?
Dr Michelle Lynch (01:16):
Sure.
And, I think it's fair to saythat I never had a
straightforward relationshipwith alcohol.
It was something that, there wasa little bit of a love hate
relationship with it that,
Barry Condon (01:26):
relationship.
Dr Michelle Lynch (01:27):
sometimes I drank it and I felt better and I
felt happier, and I.
kind of the, kind of socialenergy and glue that you might
expect from it.
And other times when it justbecame a bit of a burden.
And I think that was the casefor a long time actually, for
almost the entire journey withit.
And I was always, tr attemptingto have some long breaks from
(01:48):
it.
And I was that kind of person interms of the drinking pattern.
So I would have very long breaksfrom it.
But when I did drink it, it, itdidn't have this, this sort of,
kind of feeling of it's justgonna be something, I have one
drink or two drinks, and then Ifeel content and I go away from
it.
It never left a feeling ofcontentment.
and so it, it kind of became anissue that it became too many
(02:12):
drinks at one time.
and then all the negativeimpacts of that.
Yeah,
Barry Condon (02:19):
and.
Dr Michelle Lynch (02:19):
that kind of went on for a long time prior to
me kind of reach, kind ofgetting to the point, you know,
like a car hitting the brakesor, or kind of slowing down and
pressing the brakes and saying,actually, I might like to just
stop.
Barry Condon (02:33):
That's interesting.
I mean, I, I've, I've notthought of it like that before.
The, the, but you're, you'reright, the, the.
The way that it's, that alcoholsomething that never satisfies.
It's, it, it's in a, and it'skind of an innate thing in, in
dopamine itself.
That, that is kind of the, the,the, the driver of, of why we
drink, is dopamine.
Is, is, is we sort of think ofit as the reward, but it's
(02:54):
actually more of a, a reminderto do more.
And it's, you know, it, itmotivates us to keep going, keep
going, keep going.
And it's meant to be, more of athing that, that, you know.
A, a, a survival mechanism forthings that are scarce.
But when alcohol's everywhere,it's, it's, it's, it, it can be
something that, that, that we,we latch onto and is, and can be
very dangerous.
So, so when did you decide,okay, I need to do something
(03:15):
different or, take a differentapproach or how did you get into
the, the change itself?
Dr Michelle Lynch (03:20):
So, it really came about, just before the
pandemic began.
and I was on a huge health driveactually, and I hadn't had
alcohol for months.
And this was in, 2020 and of.
Really fit and really happy andhealthy.
And then I put my house up tosale, made a relocation from
London to the West Midlands.
(03:41):
And, it, it was multiple things,that were stressful at the same
time, and, complications that Iwasn't expecting with that move,
bereavements and other thingsgoing on, that once I started
drinking again, the strangething was, is that after long
periods of not drinking.
The rebound effect was quitepronounced, and it's something I
really noticed over thosefollowing years when, I was
(04:05):
also, because it was in my lateforties, perimenopausal, and
then menopausal.
And I think that, you know,there's some evidence, you know,
that that can affect all theseneurotransmitter levels and we
haven't really linked, or Ihadn't linked.
Hormones has grownneurotransmitters until, recent,
you know, recently when I didwork around it.
But essentially, this kind ofstopping and starting was
(04:26):
getting much more pronounced andI was noticing and thinking
that's really strange how thesignals coming to me are getting
stronger every time I try tostop.
So actually I'm probably justgonna have to completely stop.
That's what, led me to startlooking into people who don't
drink at all.
So I looked a lot at Instagramthings.
I read books by people whostopped drinking.
I read books by people who werevery frank and honest about
(04:48):
being childhood alcoholics orpeople with alcohol use
disorder.
and so I learned a lot aboutthat before and after.
And what really got me actuallywas this before and after thing,
before and after photos, beforeand after stories.
And I looked at it and said, Iwant a before and and after
story.
And I particularly want my afterstory.
Justine Clark (05:06):
I, I love that so much.
And I, I keep thinking of that,that is it Mick Jagger song, I
Can't Get No Satisfaction, andit's like, yeah, I, I really
resonate with what you're sayingthere because.
You know, when you start, I, Ireckon as soon as you realize
that this isn't very satisfyingand, and, and you're not quite
getting enough, and that you'regonna need more, as soon as that
(05:29):
starts being a thought that youhave around any substance, but
alcohol in this instance, Ithink it's game over.
I think it, it's diminishingreturns.
And I noticed as well, after an18 month break when I went back
to it, that it was, you know.
I, I, I knew then and there thatthis, was never gonna be enough
(05:49):
that was gonna make me feelsatisfied.
It was never gonna do what itused to do.
And that there was gonna have tobe a different way forward.
So how did you find your wayforward this time that stuck.
Dr Michelle Lynch (06:00):
It was, it was a mixture of really, leaning
into the curiosity.
So Connor's, maybe a year and ahalf before I stopped.
I was reading, books, listeningto audio books and other things
that, Described other people'sjourneys.
And I started to really leaninto that.
What would we like if we didn'tdrink at all?
And then, looking at lots ofposts and seeing that other
(06:22):
people, were showing what they'dlearned once we stopped
drinking, all the things they'dlearned and all the things
they'd improved.
And so, on the one hand that wasgoing on, and on the other hand,
I was looking at me, I was at mybody.
I was looking at my ability towork all of it, you know, kind
of suboptimal to say the least,and at the heaviest weight I'd
ever been in 2022.
(06:44):
and also things like, getting acroaky voice because the weight
and the alcohol was doing thingslike drying my throat and I need
to train for one of my jobs isa, is a trainer.
15 minutes into a five hoursession, my voice was getting
dry and cro so it was, it hadbecome practically, it was
unworkable.
it was having a severe impact onmy physical and mental health.
(07:07):
and I could see a way forwardand I could see what was on the
other side.
And so I stopped.
I started looking at it asproblems on this side of the
equations and benefits on theother side.
So that's what maybe jumpthrough the, jump through the
portal and say, well, I'm notgoing back there.
Because even though there's allthese little triggers and things
saying, oh, wouldn't it be nice?
(07:27):
Don't you remember that pub?
Don't you remember this glass?
Don't you remember that wine youliked?
At least have triggers.
And look at these pretty bows onthis bottle.
One, look at your friends havingfun with this.
What are you doing?
Come back to us.
Come back.
And it's like, no, I know it'snot real.
So got grounded in reality andstayed on.
Stayed on the safe side of.
Barry Condon (07:48):
That's brilliant.
That's brilliant.
And, and so how was that?
Did, I mean, did you just sortof from one day to the next in
the end, you know, did you sortof draw a line in the sound,
okay today, that's it, I'm done.
Or, or, or, or was it a gradualthing?
from then
Dr Michelle Lynch (08:00):
It was like, it was like stop starts.
It was a series of in 2022, kindof stopped for three months,
then went back and itimmediately became a problem
within a day.
It's like, it was just strangehow I didn't go back and have
one drink.
I went back and I had maybe 12drinks over that weekend and
thinking, well, I haven't drankfor months.
Surely my tolerance andeverything would've adjusted,
(08:22):
and I'd only have one.
But no, it's this, it's thisvicious rebound.
and then it was like, okay, I'llstop again.
And then I think there weremaybe two more times in 2022.
Ending in, it was around, it wasaround August and then another
three week break.
One conference, one sip of aglass of wine, led to another
two bottles that weekend.
And then I woke up on theSaturday, the morning, September
(08:44):
10th and said, that's it.
No more, absolutely no more.
I can't make this work.
I can't, I can't adjust or doany of those magical things.
Some done and that was my, I'mdone moment and it's unthinkable
for me now to go back and do itagain.
It's not to say it won't everhappen because I sense it,
sometimes I sense it like justkind of like, not, it's almost
(09:08):
like it's kind of trying to finda weak point.
It's going around like thisclose and trying to find a
little weak point to get in.
Yeah.
It's really creepy when I.
I'm aware and I just, andmonitor my triggers, but I
don't, I couldn't ever seemyself wanting willingly to go
back to that.
Justine Clark (09:25):
talking about this.
'cause I, I really, I, when youare talking, I can really feel
myself having those thoughts.
I, I really, I, it's like,
Dr Michelle Lynch (09:33):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (09:34):
reach out and get that.
I could just stop at that bottleshop and, and buy that wine just
as easy.
I, I could actually hold a wineglass that's full of, with that
cold wine in it, and I couldjust drink it.
I know what it tastes like.
It's, and it's almost like, afear and a repulsion and
excitement and it, like, me ofthat standing on the edge of a,
(09:56):
of a, of a height and going, Icould actually go, you know,
it's like, Yeah.
But it's, it's,
Dr Michelle Lynch (10:04):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (10:04):
actually scarier.
It's scarier than being on aclifftop because it's, it's so,
it could come in the room at anyminute.
It's always, you know, it isever present once alcohol's been
there.
and I don't think peoplerealize, because we've all drunk
by auto enrollment for our, ourwhole lives.
you know, since we are youngadults, it's been in every
social, social situation atevery opportunity.
(10:27):
So we're actually having tochoose to say no rather than the
other way round.
so I love, I love how you'retalking about that.
If you're looking to take backcontrol of your drinking, why
don't you join our AlcoholFreedom Finders 30 day group
program.
It's a great place to start.
Because we approach it as anexperiment, rather than a
(10:47):
challenge.
Whereas, as well as getting agreat detox, you learn the
science and the psychology aboutwhy you're drunk in the first
place.
So whether you want to stopaltogether, or just become a
more mindful and moderatedrinker, why don't you give it a
crack?
Use the link in the show notesto sign up to our next 30 day
program, and you won't regretit.
(11:08):
Because no one ever woke up inthe morning and said, I wish I'd
had more to drink last night,did they?
Back to the episode.
let's talk about some positive things.
Now.
Let's talk about like, you havedone this, what's on the other,
what's been on the other sideof, of, of this now?
What are some of the positivesthat you've experienced?
Dr Michelle Lynch (11:27):
so yeah,
Barry Condon (11:28):
yeah.
Dr Michelle Lynch (11:28):
lots of positives and,
Barry Condon (11:30):
And,
Dr Michelle Lynch (11:30):
everything, everything has just got so much
better.
I, I studied for a battery MBA,successfully studied over kind
of two, three months, gained abattery MBA, expanded my
business.
Real desire to expand mytraining business.
it's one of the most satisfyingthings for me is teaching people
and mentoring, and preparingpeople for their careers.
(11:51):
so I've been, very successful inthe last 18 months, expanding
that.
I'm traveling.
I obviously sold my, sold myproperty in, in the uk and this
has been something I wanted todo for several years.
Barry Condon (12:03):
years.
Dr Michelle Lynch (12:04):
And finally kind of made it all the things
are in storage.
I'm, I'm now traveling aroundand investigating where else I
might like to, to stay for a fewmonths of the year, and meeting
new people.
And the idea really was to kindof be exposed to lots of
different viewpoints andcultures and places.
because perhaps one of thethings that alcohol's very good
(12:25):
at doing is isolating us andtelling us not to expand our
world and to, Reduce ourexpectations.
That might not be the case foreveryone.
I know lots of people travel andthey have alcohol in different
countries, but, it doesn't workfor everyone.
So, yeah, I've been able tofulfill a of long term
ambitions, since I stopped,drinking.
Barry Condon (12:44):
And have you, have you found it easy to interact
with these new people?
You know, do people ask you, youknow, oh, oh, do you not drink?
Or, why do you not drink?
And, and, and have you found aneasy way to, to deal with that?
Dr Michelle Lynch (12:57):
Hmm.
Barry Condon (12:57):
or was that something you had to learn?
Dr Michelle Lynch (12:59):
Well, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's an
interesting one becauseinitially,
Barry Condon (13:02):
initially,
Dr Michelle Lynch (13:03):
a lot of people breathe a sigh of relief
that I didn't drink anymore, butsome people.
kind of, well, can't you justhave a middle?
Can't you just have two?
And it was like, well, what doestwo mean?
I, I, I really sort of, invitepeople to think about what
they're saying a bit more nowwhen they say, just have two,
because two doesn't, two wentfrom being two units to being
two glasses.
(13:24):
And we know that those glassesnow are sometimes 250 meals.
So two is actually six units, atleast, you know, it can be six
units.
So, No, I don't buy into thisidea that, you know, I can't
have two.
So I had to explain that topeople and, and it, some people
were distanced, they distancedthemselves for that reason,
(13:44):
which is fine.
That's, that's their decision.
and so one of the challenges is,is to get involved with people
who are happy to have timeswhen, and I, I don't mind if
people drink around me.
I really don't have a problemwith it.
But obviously it's, it's, it's,it is different.
So, Yeah, it's changed my sociallife.
I do interact with people whoare not drinking.
(14:04):
I prefer in honesty to do that.
and it's interesting when I cometo regions where it's not, a
popular part of culture toexplain that even though I'm a
Western lady, that when I comeinto a hotel, I don't want to be
directed to the, to the bar.
that I actually want to sit inthe parts of the hotel and to be
in the, into the parts wherethere's no alcohol being drunk.
So, it.
Barry Condon (14:25):
So,
Dr Michelle Lynch (14:25):
an image that as western people we have that
we drink alcohol.
and it takes some explainingthat actually not everybody
does, and I'm.
Justine Clark (14:33):
Isn't that fascinating, that it's a western
culture thing as well, and thatas travelers, other cultures
identify us as drinkers, theymust just think that we are,
vulgar and.
all those, you know, what, whichwe are, I think, and, and, but
anyway, enough about that.
I'm, I'm just interested to knownow that you're on the other
(14:54):
side and, and I think people whoare still toying with the idea
of moderation or stoppingentirely, for you is something
that's surprising that youdidn't realize would happen for
you on the other side?
For me it is, I've reallynoticed how nature.
seems, I used to feel like I waswalking in nature and I get that
(15:17):
get, oh, I'm walking in nature.
That's nice.
But I didn't notice how actuallynature comes and communicates to
you, through, you know, ripplingwater.
Or a breeze.
And a leaf because we are notpresent to the noise that I hear
about.
Oh, I need a drink, or Should goand get a drink, or I've got a
hangover.
There's more space for natureto, to come in and be soothing.
(15:42):
What surprises have there beenfor you in your life, you didn't
expect?
Dr Michelle Lynch (15:47):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
As as we're both hikers, I canfully appreciate that feeling
of, being able to soak up natureand even I notice animals a lot
more, actually.
I notice how.
Animals communicate and birdsand, you know, feeling more
connected to, you know, natureand wildlife.
(16:07):
And that's, that's wonderful.
it's also, it was also somethingthat prompted me to stop was
this promise that.
You could pick up a glass ofwater or you know, a glass of a
non-alcoholic drink and enjoy itjust as much and relax just as
much.
And I, I had, I had toexperience it to believe it, but
it was just, it's just so true.
(16:28):
And it's, it's just so funnythat, that, It, it maybe it's a
bit like when you stop smokingand I've
Barry Condon (16:34):
it's a
Dr Michelle Lynch (16:34):
really smoked, but if you know that
feeling of just holding a pen orsomething, it's, it is true that
I can have a lovely,non-alcoholic drink and come
away feeling just as relaxedthat as the entire, it was all
the other bits of the experiencebesides the alcohol were
actually making it nice.
So that, that was a pleasantsurprise.
And that, so that's something Iwould invite anybody who's
curious to think about.
(16:56):
what else?
There's also the, ability to seemy personality as it is without
alcohol Is and to see my traitsbecause, traits because, you
can't blame alcohol for anythinganymore.
You can't attribute things toalcohol anymore.
So whatever.
I'm like, and my thoughtprocesses, my behavior all has
to be attributed to somethingelse.
(17:17):
and it wasn't long.
Interest after stopped drinking,I found out that I had, combined
a DHD and after that, that I hadautistic traits.
So now I'm having to go back andalcohol isn't really the main
thing anymore.
It's, it's going back andlooking at my life as, framing
everything from, from thatperspective and seeing that
(17:38):
actually a lot of the strugglesI had weren't, weren't, they
weren't, so alcohol wasn't thecause.
It was actually one of.
A kind of a bad solution to theright problem, but now I, I
look, yeah, it gave me theability to go away and find the
right, not necessarilysolutions, but, but, you know,
lifestyle and, confidence inbeing who I am.
(18:00):
So I don't apologize for who I'manymore.
I don't tell people, well, thefact that I'm interested in a
hundred different things and thefact that I'll go very deep when
I do look at things, I'm notgoing to apologize for that
anymore.
It's me and, I can be flexible,but I'm not going to use a
substance or do something tomask who I am.
Barry Condon (18:19):
I love that.
I love that.
And, and, and I think thatthere's lot of, new
understanding now in aroundneurodivergency and, and also
it's, it's relationship to even,yeah.
To, to drink, to drinking.
you, have you, have you lookedat that yourself?
Have, have you looked at the,maybe now looking back, you
know.
as you said, you know, the, theidea, often that drink is a
(18:43):
solution, a bad solutionperhaps, but it's not
necessarily the problem Peoplehear, I've got a drink problem.
Well, no, the, the problem ismaybe something else.
and I, have you been able tosort of link that to, the, the,
the, the neurodivergency thatyou're now becoming aware
Dr Michelle Lynch (18:56):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I, I, I think that, andI'm not obviously any kind of
expert on neuroscience oranything like this.
Initial understanding is that ina, in some people who are
neurodivergent or have a DHD,that there is, science around
the dopamine mechanisms notworking optimally and other
(19:18):
neurotransmitters likeneurocrine.
and, and the fact that as youget older, especially as a, as a
woman when you reach theperimenopause and menopause,
that your neurotransmitters arechanging quite radically.
So people think of us, at my a alady at my age as, having
hormone changes, but actuallythe hormones, and, things like
dopamine are working together intandem.
(19:40):
So, what I, So.
The neurodivergence, the, astage of my life, all of that
was going to play to, a kind of,push my cravings.
And so it was another goodreason to stop drinking, but
also to look at what I can do tomanage those and what, what can
I do to balance them?
So with a mixture of therapiesand medications and lifestyle to
(20:02):
get a, a better solution tomanaging.
Brain chemistry.
and yeah, so it's, it's, it'sgreat to be in that position of
awareness and to understand whyit's so important not to do
things that will push my brainchemistry and my, hormones and
neurotransmitters in, into acomplete state of imbalance.
That's just not good for me.
Justine Clark (20:20):
Yeah, I, I, I.
I couldn't agree with you morepersonally.
I found it so frustrating as a,a wellbeing therapist and
someone who'd had, you know,illness in my childhood and
beyond, why would I be doingsomething that was making me
feel unwell and I knew it wasmaking me feel unwell.
I mean, we all know that ahangover mate is, is us being
(20:42):
unwell.
I, I felt like I was not, youknow how you've got that feeling
that you are, if only I could dothat one thing, then everything
would be okay.
Well now, now I've done that onething.
I've done the one thing.
So, like you said earlier,
Dr Michelle Lynch (20:56):
Yes.
Justine Clark (20:57):
be
Dr Michelle Lynch (20:57):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (20:58):
And I I
Dr Michelle Lynch (20:59):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (20:59):
you, how does it play forward?
'cause now all of a sudden I'm,I'm playing it forward.
I'm going, there's nothing tostop me living a really long,
healthy life because everythingI do now is proactively doing
things like, oh.
What could I eat that's gonnaimprove things?
What can I listen to that'sgonna improve?
Like, I'm, I'm not saying I'msome kind of fully formed
perfect creature.
(21:20):
I do love my chocolate and Iwill eat it.
and I still have an aches andpains, but I feel like I can see
the path ahead now and have somechance of following it
somewhere.
What about you playing itforward?
Where do you see yourselfheading that maybe you didn't
think possible in the past?
Dr Michelle Lynch (21:40):
it's, it's a mixture of, on one hand, looking
at what I want to achieve andgoing for it and having the
means and the energy and theclarity in my thinking to
achieve it.
But it's also getting rid ofthat, over confidence and
overoptimism that you sometimeshave.
Like, I think I saw a meme orinternet post once that said
like, you know, with alcoholyou'll create all kinds of
(22:03):
dreams that you think you canachieve.
And then.
When you're sober, you know,you'll realize you weren't
achieving any of them, but, butyou, you know, you might have
fewer and you might have lesskind of, unrealistic dreams.
You'll have realistic dreams andyou be able to achieve
Justine Clark (22:18):
Hmm.
Dr Michelle Lynch (22:18):
those.
I, I think that's the way I'mseeing it, that I'm actually
trying to remove my overwhelm,'cause overwhelm, was part of my
issues in the past, but becauseI like to look at so many
different things, I'm interestedone of.
Downsides to that is that youcan easily get overwhelmed.
So I have, I have sort of two orthree top realistic ambitions,
(22:39):
like training and kind of,learning more about specific
topics and just being content.
So actually been content to havefewer things on my but to do me
well.
And alongside that, to have anice life, to have a good work
life balance.
So, you know, going out innature more, enjoying some more
hobbies, taking up writing.
(23:00):
I like to write, I like to blog.
And, yeah, so, so trying to geta bit more of a life work
balance as well.
Justine Clark (23:07):
To circle back to what you said about going, I
just want to keep things, youknow, do less'cause I suffer
with overwhelm, but you'retelling me that you're living in
Moscot and that you want to beable to travel from, place to
place and you are writing and
Dr Michelle Lynch (23:22):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (23:24):
far more possibly than you, you could ever have
imagined.
And, and you are thinking thatthat's not doing much.
Dr Michelle Lynch (23:32):
Yeah.
Yes, indeed.
And, it's, it's one of my thingsthat, yeah, I, I just have so
many things that I want to doand, I want to do just enough of
them.
That makes life fun withoutbeing overwhelmed.
So one of the things I have islike, try just try to pack a
case, you know, and getting fromone place to another without
(23:52):
losing things or forgettingthings and kind of having too
much with me and then stillthinking, oh, I still don't have
that thing with me that Iwanted.
So one of the, one of the funnyend things about moving around
is, having to get used to nothaving so much stuff with you.
which is, yeah, it's, if you areused to having everything in a
house and everything in itsright place, then, then that's
(24:12):
something to get used to.
Justine Clark (24:13):
I have to
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:13):
but, yeah, I'm sure that
Justine Clark (24:15):
that I literally just moved countries and I.
Spent six months waiting for
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:20):
mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (24:21):
shipping to come over and hand on heart the week
before it arrived.
I'm like, I don't care if noneof that stuff arrives.
I just don't need the stuffanymore.
I think that's, that's got a
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:33):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (24:33):
for, for alcohol as well, that actually it is the
equivalent of having lots ofstuff around us because it sort
of packs us in nice and tightlyinto a little mental box.
And actually we don't need thestuff anymore.
Dr Michelle Lynch (24:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so it is true, but eventhough, you know, I, I'm talking
about going from a house, like athree bedroom house to a
suitcase.
So 30 kilos of belongings comingwith you is still quite a lot to
take around frequently, but 30kilos of belongings versus an
entire house.
So.
Yeah, we, we do tend to, tocluster our lives up a lot and
(25:13):
to, to lose a lot of energy thatall the energy leakage to places
that's really unproductive.
So what I'm trying to do is havekind of energy that's well used,
you and, and enough leftover to,do the work, all the self-care.
So I'm sure as, as a wellbeingtherapist, Justine, you can
understand.
But if you use 99 or 105% ofyour energy on work and on
(25:33):
travel.
you, what do you have left overto look after yourself.
And actually sometimes I think,isn't there, isn't there
something about, hungry?
It's a halt.
It's hungry, angry, lonely,tired, isn't it?
The four reasons why people justgo and have a drink because
they're hungry, angry, lonely,or tired, and.
that's what you get if you'reoverwhelmed.
So for me, that's a real part ofmy self care is to try to leave
(25:57):
a good 20% or a chunk of energyfor just relaxing and taking
care of myself.
Barry Condon (26:04):
great.
And I think that's, that's partof the, the difficulty or for me
it was the main difficulty thatillusion that, that it does give
you that relief.
Briefly and, and is, and isactually sort of spiraling you
down.
but to, give the space for otherthings, to.
to fulfill you and, give otherareas of life a chance to give
(26:25):
you that enjoyment iscounterintuitive because, my
only relief at the end of theday is to have a drink and then
I can relax or the only way Ican feel confident enough to be
in public or be with people andsocialize or do a certain thing,
can be to have a couple ofdrinks and then I can.
You know, be the person that Ithink I ought to be.
to step away from that feelsvery counterintuitive, but when
you do, it gives space for youto be that more authentic person
(26:49):
and, and, and feel, act, genuineconfidence.
how have you, now, know, how doyou now feel, in yourself,
confidence wise?
Do you feel, more confident or,or, or, more comfortable in, in
social situations, for instance?
Dr Michelle Lynch (27:04):
I, I think I'm more aware of my discomfort
in social situations, which eventhough it doesn't sound
positive, is better to know thatand to do something about it
than to pretend for the rest ofyour life that you are
comfortable and use a drink ofalcohol or something, and.
To, to kind of not be genuine.
So I'm living a genuine life,which is actually, I'm gonna
(27:25):
turn down 90% of the socialoccasions I'm offered.
and also the, to really enjoy mytime alone.
And I really do enjoy itbecause, you know, I like to
research and I actually wouldreally like to just take up
painting.
I was never something I wastraditionally associated being
very good at.
But, I really enjoy art andculture so.
(27:46):
Yeah, I'd be quite happy insteadof going out to just sit and
draw and paint or write orlisten to music.
And I love music as well, and Ilove singing.
So, there's multiple ways to getto deal with the halt, factors.
And, so without alcohol, I'mfree to kind of go around and
try them all and I might trythings and go actually focus on.
(28:08):
Things that have a higher, kindof joy benefit because really
what we want out out of life isjoy and contentment.
And that chart, there's a chartfrom, I'm sure you know, the,
the lady, Jen Lee Hurst, whichshe shows this chart of what
happens to your dopamine whenyou drink and it's spiking up a
huge spike and then this hugelong tail of suboptimal, as
opposed to finding things thatjust give you mini.
(28:31):
Many enjoyment moments, manymoments of joy all day long.
I mean, who would, who canresist many moments of joy all
day long rather than has andstressful day long, and a drink
at night?
Justine Clark (28:41):
Couldn't, I couldn't.
Yep.
Yep.
Dr Michelle Lynch (28:43):
That's how I like to look at it.
Justine Clark (28:44):
And if you
Dr Michelle Lynch (28:45):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (28:45):
you speak about music.
Well, painting and drawingreleases a hormone we don't get
elsewhere, which is the joy of,learning how to make mistakes
and then feel that it's comingalong.
I think it's acetylcholine isthe.
Is that the,
Dr Michelle Lynch (29:01):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (29:02):
hormone.
it's, it's Italian word for itis
Dr Michelle Lynch (29:05):
Mm-hmm.
Justine Clark (29:06):
which is the movement of making mistakes,
actually creating somethingorganic and beautiful.
My art teacher will tell me off.
I haven't said it right, butanyway.
And then the second one, ofcourse, with singing and humming
and chanting, it's all aboutresetting the vagus nerve, which
is our.
Social engagement, part of ournervous system, that that
naturally is gonna elevate,elevate us, and keep us in
(29:29):
connection.
So the things you're mentioninggenuinely are going to make us
feel better.
So rather than chasing somethingthat is going to only make us
feel poorly in the long run is ano brainer.
Well, it is for us three.
and I hope more people can, geton board along with us.
And we like to wrap up by askingone final question, which is.
(29:50):
It may be difficult, which iswhat three words resonate most
for you about being an alcoholfreedom finder?
Dr Michelle Lynch (29:58):
Yeah, this, this was a.
So many, I'm sure you canimagine.
What should I come up with?
Justine Clark (30:04):
I.
Dr Michelle Lynch (30:05):
so I ended up with, awareness, energy, and
boundaries.
Those are my three.
Barry Condon (30:12):
Yeah.
I
Dr Michelle Lynch (30:12):
yeah.
Barry Condon (30:13):
to expand on on those?
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Lynch (30:14):
So the awareness is, kind of awareness
of my, of my, of my standards,of my values.
And, we didn't sort of go intoit at all, but actually I
understand my value system nowmuch better than I ever did.
And I set boundaries andstandards much better than I
ever did.
And, you know, I willcommunicate them and say, this
is okay for me.
This is not okay for me.
(30:35):
but, you know, somebody severelyviolates my boundaries and.
You know, it behaves in a waythat I don't think is
commensurate with good,professional or good, good
friendship then, then I willstep away from it and I'm quite
happy to close doors and say,this isn't for me right now and
unless something changes, theawareness is also yeah, of my,
(30:56):
how I feel, my triggers.
I'm very aware of my triggersand managing them and either
relieving myself fromsituations.
Kind of doing some sort ofself-soothing.
So, so that would be kind of theaware, probably the awareness
and the boundaries togetheractually.
but the energy is, is, as we'vespoken about, you have so much
(31:18):
more energy, and so many morepossibilities of doing nice
things with it.
So yeah, those are the threethings since today at this
moment, those are the three thatI, I'd, I'd stick with.
Justine Clark (31:29):
get to choose what you expend your energy on
rather than it being chosen foryou.
'cause you're sort of making youpre-selecting that my energy's
gonna go here and then it'sgonna go here, so I'm gonna have
to go here.
Whereas now we can choose like,oh, I'm feeling a little bit
depleted.
It's time to rest.
Or, oh, I've got a bit moreenergy than I thought.
(31:49):
What should I do for the nexthalf hour?
It that is a game changer.
I.
Energy.
I love
Dr Michelle Lynch (31:54):
Yeah.
Justine Clark (31:55):
such a great
Dr Michelle Lynch (31:55):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
and I would honestly say topeople, don't ever worry about
filling your time because it's afunny thing that people say to
me, well, what do you do ifyou're not drinking?
It's like a hundred things thatI always wanted to do.
so, I think it's getting overthat sort of kind of
(32:15):
embarrassment to say to peopleI'm not gonna drink that you
might initially have.
And then, sort of showing, youknow, you, you show, don't tell.
I've clearly shown in the lasttwo years how much nicer my life
is and how happy I'm, and betterchoices I'm making.
So, yeah,
Barry Condon (32:32):
so,
Dr Michelle Lynch (32:33):
it's working.
So that's
Barry Condon (32:34):
Working
Dr Michelle Lynch (32:35):
could really say.
Barry Condon (32:36):
great.
Michelle, it's been greattalking to you.
if people are interested infinding out more, about you or
sustainable, Technologies, andhow you might be able to mentor
them, or, or tell'em a bit aboutMuscat, you know, where, where
can people get hold of you?
Dr Michelle Lynch (32:51):
so they can, follow me on LinkedIn if they
like, they can follow Mycompany's Enable future.
So, if you look for, for me orfor Enable future on LinkedIn,
you'll, you can find me there,or you can find me on, socials
is m Misha Prana.
So Misha Prana, that's someInstagram and Threads best ones.
Justine Clark (33:11):
Well, been, it is been an absolute pleasure
Barry Condon (33:14):
Great.
Thanks very much.
Justine Clark (33:16):
I, I actually feel like we could be talking,
go on and talk for hours.
So thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Dr Michelle Lynch (33:22):
You're welcome.
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