January 5, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, we meet Judi who in her youth used weed, cocaine, amphetamines, uppers, downers, you name it. She took them all. But age 23 when the fun stopped, she quit them all without much effort. All that is except alcohol. She describes alcohol as her demon. Her story will knock your socks off.
And if you're thinking demons require exorcism, priests, and God, you won't be disappointed. This is a story like no other
Judi Daigle
https://www.thisnakedsoul.org/
Our 30-day group programme:
https://www.cleanlifecoaching.org/aff-group
The podcast home page
https://podcast.alcoholfreedomfinders.com/
Justine Clark
https://justineclarktherapy.co.uk/
https://www.instagram.com/wellwithjustine/
Barry Condon
https://www.cleanlifecoaching.org/
https://www.instagram.com/clean.life.coaching/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-condon-577b85294/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Alcohol Freedom Finders.
In this episode, we meet Judywho in her youth used weed,
cocaine, amphetamines, uppers,downers, you name it.
She took them all.
But age 23 when the fun stopped,she quit them all without much
effort.
All that is except alcohol.
She describes alcohol as herdemon.
(00:21):
Her story will knock your socksoff.
And if you're thinking demonsrequire exorcism, priests, and
God, you won't be disappointed.
This is a story like no other.
Let's get started.
Barry Condon (00:33):
Welcome to Alcohol Freedom Finders with me, Barry
Condon and Justine Clark.
Today, we are excited to havewith us from Vermont in the
United States, Judy Daigle.
Judy is a TNM coach like Justineand myself.
And, is also, an expert in theALP, side of things, the, the,
(00:54):
the psychology, psychologymethod that, that perhaps, Judy
will tell us about later, that,this naked mind, is now, using.
And she is a specialist in theopioid world.
So she uses her, knowledge, fromthis naked mind, as a coach and
is, applying it to the, opioid,area.
(01:17):
And, we're just really excitedto hear all about that and to
hear a little bit more about,Judy's own story.
So welcome Judy.
Justine Clark (01:24):
welcome Judy.
It's absolutely awesome to haveyou here.
I'm super excited to hear aboutyour journey.
we've known you for a while nowand I always love talking to
you.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about your story and
what led you to This Naked Mindand becoming alcohol free.
Judy Daigle (01:40):
Oh, hi guys.
Thanks for having me.
this is really exciting.
I think the work you're doing isjust fabulous.
so I'm here mostly I mean,alcohol story, I've had it since
12 years old, you know, stealingfrom grandpa, or not grandpa,
but grandma, and, and, anddrinking lots of alcohol, having
(02:01):
lots of, substance use all theway through high school, all the
way into my, until I was about23, I was polysubstance user.
all through high school.
And ironically, the story thatalways kills everybody is like,
yeah, but you were president ofthe class.
You were president of the band.
You played first chair trumpet,blah, blah, blah.
But I was also right out in thefootball field with all the weed
(02:24):
dress smokers.
And so I was president of allthe clubs, you know?
so I stopped hard drugs when Iwas 23 and I did all the drugs
except opiates, ironically.
they made me sick.
Couldn't do them.
Thank God.
and, so then from 23 until theage of probably 49, I struggled
(02:46):
drinking huge, hard liquor.
Huge, huge, huge.
But again, I went to school.
I was a GPA, high GPA.
So it was really hard for me tostruggle.
to understand like, Oh, stopdrinking, stop drinking, stop
drinking.
Or, you know, I, cause I, Icould function.
I was successful.
I stopped drinking at the age of49.
(03:08):
But what's interesting aboutthat is that I started my
business.
I've been in business myselfsince 2006, working with people
with opiate dependence.
So I helped the needle out oftheir arm and then helped them
transition into a functioninghealth, you know, whatever is
their goal in life.
so what happened for me tobecome alcohol free, I
(03:31):
struggled.
I struggled and I struggled.
and I did everything, everythingpossible and nothing worked.
So back in those days, that waswhat year, I don't know, 49.
I was like 20.
It was before Annie.
Anyway, Annie came out beforeAnnie came out.
It was like 2009.
Yeah.
now I'm dating myself.
(03:54):
Awesome.
so we're like 2009.
And what happened to me was I,my parents had some friends who
I had a priest friend and I wenttheir house and the priest was
listening and, and he was doingwhat we call it in the
Catholicism, we call it lifetimeconfession.
(04:14):
So, I went and I went and did myconfession and all this and
that, but I never talked aboutdrinking because, Who talked
about that?
It's like, yeah, all right, Idrank, but so what?
anyways, he was praying over me,and I was on my knees, and the
woman from the house waskneeling beside me, and he was
praying over me, and all of asudden he leans into my ear, And
(04:36):
he says, Jesus just healed youof your alcoholism.
And so I sat there on my knee orI was on my knees and I thought,
Hmm, right.
My first thought was, how dareyou call me alcoholic?
Right.
I mean, that was my, how dareyou call me alcoholic, but that
was the truth.
So like a good person with,with.
(04:57):
alcohol issues.
I came home, I promptly tried todrink.
Couldn't do it.
next day, I tried to drinkbecause people who were living
with me at the time, we alldrank.
That was what we did, right?
We drank, we had dinner, wedrank wine, we drank scotch, we
did all those things.
I haven't been able to drinksince that situation.
So, so, And I can't deny it.
(05:20):
I can't deny it at all.
You know, I've had a lot ofmiraculous things in my life,
but that was like the big one.
Barry Condon (05:29):
That's amazing.
I just.
Yeah, I don't think, I don'tthink we'll ever hear a story
quite as amazing as that.
That's,
Justine Clark (05:36):
and I'm
Barry Condon (05:37):
So, Yeah, yeah.
So how was that then?
So what, so what was next?
I mean, you hadn't done any ofthe work.
You hadn't, hadn't, you know,worked out how and why and what
you'd struggled, hadn't beenable to do it.
And then.
It just, as if you would sortof, yeah, cured or at least you
(05:58):
couldn't do it anymore.
And so then what?
Judy Daigle (06:00):
That was it.
I mean, I, and I would go, I'dgo to family functions where,
cause that's what we do.
I mean, the culture in my familywas drink, celebrate, drink,
celebrate.
Oh, look, there's a new Scotchout.
Oh, look, you know, celebratethe alcohol in and of itself.
And so we go to family functionsand I would, I'd try to have a
beer and I'd get like a littlebit in and just that little
(06:22):
feeling you start to feel as thealcohol is kicking in.
It made me sick, sick.
So I said, you know, this isGod's way of saying to me, I
know you're going to drinkthrough this Judy, so we're just
going to make you sick so youwon't.
And that, and that is really,I've not.
So when I came into Naked Mindand I'm watching people talk
(06:44):
about their struggle and allthis and that, I'm like, I know
the struggle.
I completely know the struggle.
I know the struggle with drugs.
I know it with alcohol, but howto take the steps to stop.
I was never successful that.
the only way I could absolutelystop was I was healed.
I mean, it was that simple or Iwould still be, I'd be dead.
(07:06):
I wouldn't be, it wouldn't be amatter of still drinking.
I'd be dead.
So that's, that's the, myalcohol free bit.
Justine Clark (07:15):
I mean, that is such an incredible story.
like I said, I am slightlyjealous, because I wish it had
been like that for me to justhave a moment where everything
turns.
but first of all, I just wantedto circle back and say, I loved
what you said about that youwere the president of
everything, I think, a lot ofthe reason why people who suffer
with substance and alcohol inparticular, can't move forward
(07:39):
is because they tend to beoverachievers.
They tend to be people who aregood at everything.
So not only are theyoverachievers, they're over
drinkers.
I think that's a really salientpoint and really good because
people who are good at thingsare also very good at drinking
and you know, the shame, theshame and the guilt and the
(08:01):
regret is even greater.
So tell us more.
What then led you to this nakedmind itself?
Judy Daigle (08:08):
So what led me to this naked mind, I have worked,
like I've said, since ironicallyI started this business, I was
still drinking.
Okay, I would go into, would gointo groups and I'd be watching
the clock, watching the clock,like, okay, group's got to be
done because I have to get tothe package store before it
closes so I can buy beer so Ican go before home, right?
was crazy.
Here I am trying to tell peoplehow to not be addicted and I had
(08:30):
no control of my own alcohol.
So after Jesus healed me, I, Istarted looking at addiction 101
and I'm not saying there's notuse in it, but I started looking
at the methodologies of howpeople, you know, looking at the
(08:51):
stages of readiness, looking atall the stages of addiction,
looking at all the stages of Youknow, all the times people have
been in and out of rehabs, allof those things, and it wasn't
working.
People are still, they would go,because right, right now in my
practice, I have a doctor whoprescribes Suboxone, and what
happens is, he does the medicalpiece, so people come off the
street with the needles in theirarms and then they go on to
(09:13):
Suboxone which helps take outthe withdrawal symptoms.
So then that helps them to calmdown so they can then start
functioning and starting on thejourney that they want to go to
for their goals, right, in theirlife.
but I'm watching all this andI'm like, now people are stuck
on Suboxone.
Now they've gone from a fullagonist, which is like, you
(09:34):
know, heroin and methadone andOxycontin and those kinds of
things.
And now they're on Suboxone,which is a semi agonist, but now
they're, they're dependent onit.
They're physiologically andpsychologically dependent on it.
So I'm like, all themethodologies I'm trying to use
that I've learned in my studies,because I have a master's,
(09:55):
weren't working.
They're not working.
So in searching, It was June.
I mean, I found this Naked Mind.
I took the June 2023 class and Ithink I found Naked Mind five
days before the class started.
It just popped up on a feedsomewhere and by the grace of
God, I said, all right, this isa new methodology.
(10:15):
Let's try it.
So now I'm working to do astudy.
I'm doing a beta study if thisin fact will work to help
people.
get off of suboxone.
Barry Condon (10:28):
That's brilliant.
And I think by the sounds of it,that what you were looking for
was, yeah, a different approach.
And I think that's what thisnaked mind has.
It doesn't just look at thebehavior and trying to stop you
from doing one thing or another,like stop you drinking.
I know that Annie says, youknow, endlessly, you know, we
don't look at the behavior, thebehavior takes care of itself.
(10:51):
If you can learn, something thatmakes you think different
thoughts and feel a differentway and have different beliefs
about, particularly about thethings that we, we run to in, in
a drug or in alcohol, the thingsthat attract us, the things that
we perceive to be benefits, thethings that we think are, doing
us a favor.
she allows us to, to.
(11:12):
To, to, to learn the science andsee the psychology, see the
neurochemistry.
The way that the dopamine,system keeps pulling us back
that actually it's, you know,you keep going back for relief.
You keep going back for relief,and every time you get that
relief, it's leaving behind thememories and the urges for the
next, the next hit or, or, orthe next drink.
(11:34):
when did you sort of start foryourself to sort of see the.
That you, I think, because theway that we sort of look at it
now is you think, well, alcoholseems to get a free pass,
whereas, you know, people thinkof, opiates and, and, and
another sort of hard drugs as,as, something to be concerned
about and things that you canget addicted to very easily,
(11:56):
but, but think of alcohol assomething that, you know, only
some people, will, will becomeaddicted to.
and it sounds like for a whileyou've even yourself gave
yourself a free pass that, youknow, I can run to the liquor
store, while I'm helping thesepoor people who have an
addiction.
But
Judy Daigle (12:12):
So it's really interesting, Barry, because, my
experience with addiction, Imean, I was a multi
polysubstance user, right?
And, and I stopped all the otherthings, but alcohol was super
hard and I couldn't do it.
Right.
And so the people that in myoffice, many of them
polysubstance, right?
Many of them cocaine, alcohol,weed.
(12:33):
So if you parallel alcohol andopiate, And you want to look at
the peril, they're just asdestructive.
The alcohol, I mean, what'sinteresting to me is, and even
within my practice, the stigma,right?
People, the stigma with opiatesis huge, right?
(12:54):
Even among people who useopiates.
about an alcohol.
Well, alcohol, that's no stigma.
It's legal, That's, I mean,these are people in my office
that tell me this, that, thatalcohol is legal.
So it's, there's no stigmabecause you can go to the liquor
store and you can do this andthat.
Yet when they go to AA, causesome of my folks, you know,
(13:16):
their, their community providerswill say, to AA, this and that,
but if they're on suboxone,well, you're still using, right?
Even though suboxone isn't meantto help them not use.
mind, there's a stigma there.
When they go to the pharmacy,there's stigma there.
But in their minds, alcoholdoesn't have the stigma.
Which, but, ask them to stopdrinking, right?
(13:38):
And so I'm doing, I have threepeople that are pretty heavy
drinkers, and dangerously so.
Because you can't take Suboxone.
It all works in the brainstem,right?
It's all, it all just works inthe brainstem, and won't, I
always tell them, you won'tsuffer.
You just won't wake up, andeverybody else will suffer, you
know?
So, I don't know that, MaybeI've gone off, I veered off your
(14:02):
question.
I just think that when we lookat the world, a drug is a drug
is a drug and, and, and alcoholgives us dopamine hits like
crazy, right?
I used alcohol to escapefeelings.
I used alcohol to cope.
I used alcohol for all thosethings.
And then I used alcohol just tosurvive because I couldn't, I
(14:24):
was so physically dependent onit, I couldn't.
Barry Condon (14:26):
When did you get, when did you see that, that was
the same as anybody else or anyof the guys that are struggling
with opiates?
Judy Daigle (14:34):
alcohol use, you?
mean?
Barry Condon (14:36):
Mm,
Judy Daigle (14:36):
thought alcohol was worse.
Honestly.
I thought from my experience,because I could stop cocaine, I
could stop all the amphetamines,I could stop all the downers and
uppers and everything else I wastaking, I stopped all those.
Without cocaine, much of a todo.
Alcohol, I could not.
alcohol was my demon.
Alcohol was more than anything,but because, oh, it's legal.
(15:02):
I can go to the liquor store,blah, blah.
know, so what?
I just fell out of the bar onthe sidewalk.
I'm laying there in the middleof Boston.
So what?
Ha ha, look at her.
She's drunk.
So, but if somebody, I mean, tome, how is that not as bad when
we walk down the street andsomebody's all nodding out,
right?
It doesn't matter what we're
Justine Clark (15:22):
I
Judy Daigle (15:23):
It's interesting because, yes, this
Justine Clark (15:25):
think it comes back to that.
You know, we're good people.
So we're doing something thatwe're
Judy Daigle (15:30):
rest of
Justine Clark (15:30):
to do.
So that gave us this kind ofcall pass to carry on with it.
Judy Daigle (15:34):
Boom!
Justine Clark (15:34):
And what Barry was saying earlier about it
being, Something that relievedus, something that scratched an
itch, so that's why we did it,and yet the back of our minds,
in our subconscious mind, themind that this naked mind works
on, is you just know deep downthat it feels wrong, you know
it's wrong, and you know it'smaking you feel terrible, and
(15:55):
that's what this naked mindlooks at, that part, And
actually thinking about your,your moment where you, where,
you know, you had thatconnection with, with the priest
who leaned into, he completelyconnected with you, completely
heard you, spoke to yoursubconscious through Jesus, and
(16:15):
you felt that relief yourself.
Without the substance for thefirst time perhaps.
So your relief and your, yourdeep need was met and you were
completely seen.
I think what this naked mindallows, I don't know, I'm just,
I'm just thinking things throughfor myself Judy.
It's the first time I've thoughtabout it this way, but I'd like
(16:38):
you to speak to that.
But what I'm, what I'm sort ofseeing here is that this naked
mind allows us to And I thinkit's important for others to see
for themselves what you managedto experience in that special
moment.
Judy Daigle (17:06):
It was done.
It was gone.
And I had no choice in thematter.
So then to look at the feelingsand then to experience all of
that, you're right, naked minddoes.
And I'm doing that with some ofmy folks on Suboxone right now
for the first time in theirlives.
Someone's asked them, well, howdo you feel about where you are
in your journey to not useanything?
(17:28):
And, and naked mind has allowedme.
That I mean just like when wetalk to people about alcohol.
Well, how do you feel about youralcohol?
You know, we had talked earlierabout well, if you were gonna
say to somebody like what wasone of your questions about?
What would you say to somebodyif they wanted to look at their
relationship to reframe theirrelationship with alcohol Right?
(17:50):
I would probably say, well, why?
What's going
Justine Clark (17:54):
Yeah.
Judy Daigle (17:55):
Why?
What do you think about it?
What do you feel about alcohol?
What do you feel about Suboxone?
What do you feel about weed?
What do you feel about any ofthat?
Right?
Because think if someone hadasked me that, I probably, no
one did.
But if someone had, probablywould have said, I am scared to
death because this thing has alife of its own.
(18:16):
And
Justine Clark (18:16):
Hmm.
Judy Daigle (18:17):
me, and no one gets that.
No one, people just say, oh,just stop drinking.
Or just, no, just say no, oh no,you're a piece of garbage
because you can't control it.
B.
S.
I had my own business.
I had, I was, you know, all ofthese successful entrepreneur
things, and all these leadershipmanagement things.
(18:38):
It doesn't matter.
It had a life of its own, and noone asked me, how do you feel
about it?
And that's what, that's thebrilliance of Naked Mind.
do you feel about it?
It's huge.
Barry Condon (18:55):
And I think, I think that's the, that's the
crux of the, the, the a LP,effective liminal psychology
that, that, that Annie has nowsort of formalized the way that
she approaches it.
and you're right.
It, it's, it's about how wefeel.
because logically, anybodywho's, overusing anything knows,
you know, this is not good forme.
(19:16):
They know, that they will bebetter off without it.
and they'd like to be withoutit.
They'd like to be able to, copewith, the day to day without
needing to go there.
but you know, as, and he sort offocuses on, you know, there are
two sides going on in our, inour brain.
and they both want the best foryou, but the powerful
subconscious that makes actually95 percent of our choices for us
(19:38):
Thinks that, running after thedopamine and doing the easy
thing you know, it's a survivalmechanism that goes after
pleasure and safety and whatevermakes us feel good.
And, in some situations that'sreally good, but in this
situation, it's not, and youneed to get in there and, kind
of reason with that part of yourbrain, if you're going to make
any progress and actually feelfree, in the end and not just
(20:01):
someone who's able to resisttemptation.
Judy Daigle (20:03):
think, you know, you said something, we go for
the dopamine hit because itmakes it easier.
Does it?
You know, when I was looking atthe, pre this and really
thinking about it, I thought,you know what, what is the big
deal for me right now to bealcohol free?
The big deal is clarity.
The big deal is freedom.
Even in my most hardestemotions, you know, even when
(20:26):
I'm struggling with people dieand, or this and that, I mean,
heavy, heavy, real emotions.
When I think about that, is itreally easier if I just could
run out and get drunk?
I don't think so.
I don't think so, because why?
Number one, I'm not in my life.
I'm running out and I've gotsomething else taking over my
(20:47):
life.
Right?
And number two, tomorrow I'mgoing to hate myself.
So now I'm not only my grieving,you know, or whatever emotional
stuff I'm going on.
Tomorrow I'm going to be Sixtimes as bad because why because
I've got all this other junk ontop So the dopamine hit is very
(21:07):
temporary and well, Andy talksabout like 20 minutes, right?
Have a drink have a drink andthen wait 20 minutes and see how
it goes I don't know.
I I was thinking about that andI thought really in the whole
freedom bit alcohol free meansLike you don't have that monkey
on your back all the time,
Justine Clark (21:26):
It's, I absolutely love that.
And I think, you've really sortof summarized beautifully how
this naked mind takes alcoholfrom sitting on your lap and
puts it with science andpsychology on the other side of
the room.
It gives you the space.
That's what the freedom is.
Judy Daigle (21:42):
right?
Justine Clark (21:42):
The space between you and substance and how are
you finding the BTTS going foryou so far, Judy?
I'm really interested to knowhow it's going with the opioids.
Yeah,
Judy Daigle (21:56):
really interesting is, right, everybody, society,
society, society, right, we allfall prey, alcohol's everywhere,
and then, oh, you're onSuboxone, you're never gonna get
off Suboxone, I'm here to tellyou there's hope, here to tell
you, yes, you can get offSuboxone, but people are so
afraid, they're so afraid,because why?
Because they get on YouTube, andthey watch things, and, oh, oh,
(22:18):
oh, you can't do this, you can'tdo that, people get so scared.
And I think that's also truewith alcohol.
People like, Oh, I'm hanging onalcohol because alcohol's all I
know.
It's the same as cigarettes,right?
When you stop cigarettes.
When I stopped smoking, I criedfor a week.
It was like, Oh, where's my bestfriend.
mean, right.
So it's the same.
It's the same.
(22:39):
And.
But the fear, they're so afraid,or are you afraid you're going
to use, I ask them.
Are you afraid you're going touse again?
No, done with that.
I'm not going to do thelifestyle.
I'm not going to buy on thestreets.
I'm done with all that.
Okay, well, what are you afraidof?
I don't want to be sick.
Oh, because you've never beensick before.
I mean, and, and what do youmean you're going to be sick?
(22:59):
Well, everybody on YouTube orpeople.
And, and so my focus right now,because this is brand new in my
practice, my focus right now isto really help people understand
that they are who they are andtheir experience is their
experience and to stop listeningto everybody else.
Barry Condon (23:18):
That's brilliant.
I think, I think it's importantthat people understand also
that, that, that change ispossible, that they can, you
know, it is the substance thatthey're taking, that's making.
And that they're not broken.
They're not, and I think we'vetalked about before about labels
and how important is thelanguage that we use.
And traditionally people put alabel on people and say, okay,
(23:42):
you're an alcoholic, you're anaddict, you're, you know,
someone who's, you know.
In recovery forever, lookingover their shoulder and, and you
better watch out.
I think what, what, this nakedmind and, and, and the way that
we, we practice in the way thatwe believe is that actually you
can get past it.
I don't consider myself.
You know, IS smoked for, for 20years and, and, and stopped 10
(24:04):
years ago.
But I don't consider myself a,you know, a, a cig cigarette
addict still, you know, I, I, Idon't consider, consider myself,
you know, a, a cigarette aholic,that has to be careful of
cigarettes.
I don't want anything to do with'em anymore.
I'm past that.
and I'm, I'm really, really gladabout it.
And the same with alcohol.
is, is that something that youcould, you could speak to
Judy Daigle (24:23):
that's like, ooh, Barry, now you hit a soft one.
it all ends with ick.
ick.
Ick.
You are not Ick.
A, you are not Ick and B, Ick isa label and you are a person.
know, you're a mom, you're adad, you're a brother, you're a
sister, you're a, you're afriend and, and you have gray
(24:44):
hair, you have white hair, youhave blue hair.
I don't care what you have, whoyou are.
You have a dependence onwhatever this substance is.
You have a psychologicaldependence, you have a
physiological dependence, butthat doesn't make you, that's
not your identification.
You are not ik.
I'm gonna make a shirt.
Lost ik.
Justine Clark (25:03):
I love that because that's what they say in
this sort of Modern datingprograms that they stop dating
someone because they give themthe ick So that's just
hilarious.
So don't give me the ick.
I love that.
instead of, being given the ick,what three words would you use,
Judy, to summarize what it is tobe, an alcohol freedom finder?
Judy Daigle (25:24):
Wow, you know, that's so big, so big.
My own is miraculous.
My own story is miraculous.
And everybody, just the factthat you're standing and
listening or listening to this,or whatever you're doing, are a
miracle.
Period.
(25:44):
Right?
You are a miracle.
There's nothing above and beyondthat.
You are a miracle.
Just your being here.
So, of course there's hope.
There's always hope.
We all get lost.
We all get tied into the ick theworld.
But in general, you're, you're amiracle.
The next part, my second word issurrender.
(26:05):
why surrender?
Because there's something biggerthan us.
And if we, I call him God andthat's my frame.
Other people frame different.
but in that creation, the biggerthan us takes care of us.
This is my, my belief.
and that I wouldn't even behere, honest to God.
(26:26):
I could tell you horror storiesabout when I was in the
darkness, but now that I'm here,and my job is to help people
understand that my job is tohelp people that their creator
loves them immensely, right?
I mean, you're created, you're amiracle.
And so why wouldn't the creatorlove the miracle?
Why?
It just makes sense.
Right?
(26:46):
And then my third one isgratitude.
just because I'm, I'm, I'm justincredibly grateful that I,
every day I wake up and thankGod that, Oh, no more substance.
Thank you, Jesus.
Now, my whole big thing is ifhe'd help me with sugar, that's
fine.
I put in my, my request, youknow, a little bit of sugar,
please.
if we could just deal with that.
but those are my words ismiraculous, surrender and
(27:08):
gratitude.
And I'm very grateful for thisopportunity.
Cause you guys are just thebest.
Barry Condon (27:14):
Judy, that's brilliant.
Yeah, that, that's just a reallylovely way to some your story up
and your journey up.
if people want to get in touchwith you, and follow you is
there a way that people can andshould get in touch with you?
Judy Daigle (27:26):
I do have a website, many roads
coaching.com.
So I don't, I'm not on Instagramyet.
I'm not on any of that.
I'm, I'm, I'm a work in progressin that regard.
and I, all of my contact info ison that webpage.
So it's many roads coaching.com.
Justine Clark (27:45):
Judy, thank you so much for sharing your
experiences with us.
They are you're always just apleasure to be with you.
So full of light.
and you're also incredibly funnyand we're so grateful to have
you with us.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Judy Daigle (27:58):
you both.
It's been lovely.
Thank you very much.
This is Alcohol Freedom Finders.
In this episode, we meet Judywho in her youth used weed,
cocaine, amphetamines, uppers,downers, you name it.
She took them all.
But age 23 when the fun stopped,she quit them all without much
effort.
All that is except alcohol.
She describes alcohol as herdemon.
(00:21):
Her story will knock your socksoff.
And if you're thinking demonsrequire exorcism, priests, and
God, you won't be disappointed.
This is a story like no other.
Let's get started.
Barry Condon (00:33):
Welcome to Alcohol Freedom Finders with me, Barry
Condon and Justine Clark.
Today, we are excited to havewith us from Vermont in the
United States, Judy Daigle.
Judy is a TNM coach like Justineand myself.
And, is also, an expert in theALP, side of things, the, the,
(00:54):
the psychology, psychologymethod that, that perhaps, Judy
will tell us about later, that,this naked mind, is now, using.
And she is a specialist in theopioid world.
So she uses her, knowledge, fromthis naked mind, as a coach and
is, applying it to the, opioid,area.
(01:17):
And, we're just really excitedto hear all about that and to
hear a little bit more about,Judy's own story.
So welcome Judy.
Justine Clark (01:24):
welcome Judy.
It's absolutely awesome to haveyou here.
I'm super excited to hear aboutyour journey.
we've known you for a while nowand I always love talking to
you.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about your story and
what led you to This Naked Mindand becoming alcohol free.
Judy Daigle (01:40):
Oh, hi guys.
Thanks for having me.
this is really exciting.
I think the work you're doing isjust fabulous.
so I'm here mostly I mean,alcohol story, I've had it since
12 years old, you know, stealingfrom grandpa, or not grandpa,
but grandma, and, and, anddrinking lots of alcohol, having
(02:01):
lots of, substance use all theway through high school, all the
way into my, until I was about23, I was polysubstance user.
all through high school.
And ironically, the story thatalways kills everybody is like,
yeah, but you were president ofthe class.
You were president of the band.
You played first chair trumpet,blah, blah, blah.
But I was also right out in thefootball field with all the weed
(02:24):
dress smokers.
And so I was president of allthe clubs, you know?
so I stopped hard drugs when Iwas 23 and I did all the drugs
except opiates, ironically.
they made me sick.
Couldn't do them.
Thank God.
and, so then from 23 until theage of probably 49, I struggled
(02:46):
drinking huge, hard liquor.
Huge, huge, huge.
But again, I went to school.
I was a GPA, high GPA.
So it was really hard for me tostruggle.
to understand like, Oh, stopdrinking, stop drinking, stop
drinking.
Or, you know, I, cause I, Icould function.
I was successful.
I stopped drinking at the age of49.
(03:08):
But what's interesting aboutthat is that I started my
business.
I've been in business myselfsince 2006, working with people
with opiate dependence.
So I helped the needle out oftheir arm and then helped them
transition into a functioninghealth, you know, whatever is
their goal in life.
so what happened for me tobecome alcohol free, I
(03:31):
struggled.
I struggled and I struggled.
and I did everything, everythingpossible and nothing worked.
So back in those days, that waswhat year, I don't know, 49.
I was like 20.
It was before Annie.
Anyway, Annie came out beforeAnnie came out.
It was like 2009.
Yeah.
now I'm dating myself.
(03:54):
Awesome.
so we're like 2009.
And what happened to me was I,my parents had some friends who
I had a priest friend and I wenttheir house and the priest was
listening and, and he was doingwhat we call it in the
Catholicism, we call it lifetimeconfession.
(04:14):
So, I went and I went and did myconfession and all this and
that, but I never talked aboutdrinking because, Who talked
about that?
It's like, yeah, all right, Idrank, but so what?
anyways, he was praying over me,and I was on my knees, and the
woman from the house waskneeling beside me, and he was
praying over me, and all of asudden he leans into my ear, And
(04:36):
he says, Jesus just healed youof your alcoholism.
And so I sat there on my knee orI was on my knees and I thought,
Hmm, right.
My first thought was, how dareyou call me alcoholic?
Right.
I mean, that was my, how dareyou call me alcoholic, but that
was the truth.
So like a good person with,with.
(04:57):
alcohol issues.
I came home, I promptly tried todrink.
Couldn't do it.
next day, I tried to drinkbecause people who were living
with me at the time, we alldrank.
That was what we did, right?
We drank, we had dinner, wedrank wine, we drank scotch, we
did all those things.
I haven't been able to drinksince that situation.
So, so, And I can't deny it.
(05:20):
I can't deny it at all.
You know, I've had a lot ofmiraculous things in my life,
but that was like the big one.
Barry Condon (05:29):
That's amazing.
I just.
Yeah, I don't think, I don'tthink we'll ever hear a story
quite as amazing as that.
That's,
Justine Clark (05:36):
and I'm
Barry Condon (05:37):
So, Yeah, yeah.
So how was that then?
So what, so what was next?
I mean, you hadn't done any ofthe work.
You hadn't, hadn't, you know,worked out how and why and what
you'd struggled, hadn't beenable to do it.
And then.
It just, as if you would sortof, yeah, cured or at least you
(05:58):
couldn't do it anymore.
And so then what?
Judy Daigle (06:00):
That was it.
I mean, I, and I would go, I'dgo to family functions where,
cause that's what we do.
I mean, the culture in my familywas drink, celebrate, drink,
celebrate.
Oh, look, there's a new Scotchout.
Oh, look, you know, celebratethe alcohol in and of itself.
And so we go to family functionsand I would, I'd try to have a
beer and I'd get like a littlebit in and just that little
(06:22):
feeling you start to feel as thealcohol is kicking in.
It made me sick, sick.
So I said, you know, this isGod's way of saying to me, I
know you're going to drinkthrough this Judy, so we're just
going to make you sick so youwon't.
And that, and that is really,I've not.
So when I came into Naked Mindand I'm watching people talk
(06:44):
about their struggle and allthis and that, I'm like, I know
the struggle.
I completely know the struggle.
I know the struggle with drugs.
I know it with alcohol, but howto take the steps to stop.
I was never successful that.
the only way I could absolutelystop was I was healed.
I mean, it was that simple or Iwould still be, I'd be dead.
(07:06):
I wouldn't be, it wouldn't be amatter of still drinking.
I'd be dead.
So that's, that's the, myalcohol free bit.
Justine Clark (07:15):
I mean, that is such an incredible story.
like I said, I am slightlyjealous, because I wish it had
been like that for me to justhave a moment where everything
turns.
but first of all, I just wantedto circle back and say, I loved
what you said about that youwere the president of
everything, I think, a lot ofthe reason why people who suffer
with substance and alcohol inparticular, can't move forward
(07:39):
is because they tend to beoverachievers.
They tend to be people who aregood at everything.
So not only are theyoverachievers, they're over
drinkers.
I think that's a really salientpoint and really good because
people who are good at thingsare also very good at drinking
and you know, the shame, theshame and the guilt and the
(08:01):
regret is even greater.
So tell us more.
What then led you to this nakedmind itself?
Judy Daigle (08:08):
So what led me to this naked mind, I have worked,
like I've said, since ironicallyI started this business, I was
still drinking.
Okay, I would go into, would gointo groups and I'd be watching
the clock, watching the clock,like, okay, group's got to be
done because I have to get tothe package store before it
closes so I can buy beer so Ican go before home, right?
was crazy.
Here I am trying to tell peoplehow to not be addicted and I had
(08:30):
no control of my own alcohol.
So after Jesus healed me, I, Istarted looking at addiction 101
and I'm not saying there's notuse in it, but I started looking
at the methodologies of howpeople, you know, looking at the
(08:51):
stages of readiness, looking atall the stages of addiction,
looking at all the stages of Youknow, all the times people have
been in and out of rehabs, allof those things, and it wasn't
working.
People are still, they would go,because right, right now in my
practice, I have a doctor whoprescribes Suboxone, and what
happens is, he does the medicalpiece, so people come off the
street with the needles in theirarms and then they go on to
(09:13):
Suboxone which helps take outthe withdrawal symptoms.
So then that helps them to calmdown so they can then start
functioning and starting on thejourney that they want to go to
for their goals, right, in theirlife.
but I'm watching all this andI'm like, now people are stuck
on Suboxone.
Now they've gone from a fullagonist, which is like, you
(09:34):
know, heroin and methadone andOxycontin and those kinds of
things.
And now they're on Suboxone,which is a semi agonist, but now
they're, they're dependent onit.
They're physiologically andpsychologically dependent on it.
So I'm like, all themethodologies I'm trying to use
that I've learned in my studies,because I have a master's,
(09:55):
weren't working.
They're not working.
So in searching, It was June.
I mean, I found this Naked Mind.
I took the June 2023 class and Ithink I found Naked Mind five
days before the class started.
It just popped up on a feedsomewhere and by the grace of
God, I said, all right, this isa new methodology.
(10:15):
Let's try it.
So now I'm working to do astudy.
I'm doing a beta study if thisin fact will work to help
people.
get off of suboxone.
Barry Condon (10:28):
That's brilliant.
And I think by the sounds of it,that what you were looking for
was, yeah, a different approach.
And I think that's what thisnaked mind has.
It doesn't just look at thebehavior and trying to stop you
from doing one thing or another,like stop you drinking.
I know that Annie says, youknow, endlessly, you know, we
don't look at the behavior, thebehavior takes care of itself.
(10:51):
If you can learn, something thatmakes you think different
thoughts and feel a differentway and have different beliefs
about, particularly about thethings that we, we run to in, in
a drug or in alcohol, the thingsthat attract us, the things that
we perceive to be benefits, thethings that we think are, doing
us a favor.
she allows us to, to.
(11:12):
To, to, to learn the science andsee the psychology, see the
neurochemistry.
The way that the dopamine,system keeps pulling us back
that actually it's, you know,you keep going back for relief.
You keep going back for relief,and every time you get that
relief, it's leaving behind thememories and the urges for the
next, the next hit or, or, orthe next drink.
(11:34):
when did you sort of start foryourself to sort of see the.
That you, I think, because theway that we sort of look at it
now is you think, well, alcoholseems to get a free pass,
whereas, you know, people thinkof, opiates and, and, and
another sort of hard drugs as,as, something to be concerned
about and things that you canget addicted to very easily,
(11:56):
but, but think of alcohol assomething that, you know, only
some people, will, will becomeaddicted to.
and it sounds like for a whileyou've even yourself gave
yourself a free pass that, youknow, I can run to the liquor
store, while I'm helping thesepoor people who have an
addiction.
But
Judy Daigle (12:12):
So it's really interesting, Barry, because, my
experience with addiction, Imean, I was a multi
polysubstance user, right?
And, and I stopped all the otherthings, but alcohol was super
hard and I couldn't do it.
Right.
And so the people that in myoffice, many of them
polysubstance, right?
Many of them cocaine, alcohol,weed.
(12:33):
So if you parallel alcohol andopiate, And you want to look at
the peril, they're just asdestructive.
The alcohol, I mean, what'sinteresting to me is, and even
within my practice, the stigma,right?
People, the stigma with opiatesis huge, right?
(12:54):
Even among people who useopiates.
about an alcohol.
Well, alcohol, that's no stigma.
It's legal, That's, I mean,these are people in my office
that tell me this, that, thatalcohol is legal.
So it's, there's no stigmabecause you can go to the liquor
store and you can do this andthat.
Yet when they go to AA, causesome of my folks, you know,
(13:16):
their, their community providerswill say, to AA, this and that,
but if they're on suboxone,well, you're still using, right?
Even though suboxone isn't meantto help them not use.
mind, there's a stigma there.
When they go to the pharmacy,there's stigma there.
But in their minds, alcoholdoesn't have the stigma.
Which, but, ask them to stopdrinking, right?
(13:38):
And so I'm doing, I have threepeople that are pretty heavy
drinkers, and dangerously so.
Because you can't take Suboxone.
It all works in the brainstem,right?
It's all, it all just works inthe brainstem, and won't, I
always tell them, you won'tsuffer.
You just won't wake up, andeverybody else will suffer, you
know?
So, I don't know that, MaybeI've gone off, I veered off your
(14:02):
question.
I just think that when we lookat the world, a drug is a drug
is a drug and, and, and alcoholgives us dopamine hits like
crazy, right?
I used alcohol to escapefeelings.
I used alcohol to cope.
I used alcohol for all thosethings.
And then I used alcohol just tosurvive because I couldn't, I
(14:24):
was so physically dependent onit, I couldn't.
Barry Condon (14:26):
When did you get, when did you see that, that was
the same as anybody else or anyof the guys that are struggling
with opiates?
Judy Daigle (14:34):
alcohol use, you?
mean?
Barry Condon (14:36):
Mm,
Judy Daigle (14:36):
thought alcohol was worse.
Honestly.
I thought from my experience,because I could stop cocaine, I
could stop all the amphetamines,I could stop all the downers and
uppers and everything else I wastaking, I stopped all those.
Without cocaine, much of a todo.
Alcohol, I could not.
alcohol was my demon.
Alcohol was more than anything,but because, oh, it's legal.
(15:02):
I can go to the liquor store,blah, blah.
know, so what?
I just fell out of the bar onthe sidewalk.
I'm laying there in the middleof Boston.
So what?
Ha ha, look at her.
She's drunk.
So, but if somebody, I mean, tome, how is that not as bad when
we walk down the street andsomebody's all nodding out,
right?
It doesn't matter what we're
Justine Clark (15:22):
I
Judy Daigle (15:23):
It's interesting because, yes, this
Justine Clark (15:25):
think it comes back to that.
You know, we're good people.
So we're doing something thatwe're
Judy Daigle (15:30):
rest of
Justine Clark (15:30):
to do.
So that gave us this kind ofcall pass to carry on with it.
Judy Daigle (15:34):
Boom!
Justine Clark (15:34):
And what Barry was saying earlier about it
being, Something that relievedus, something that scratched an
itch, so that's why we did it,and yet the back of our minds,
in our subconscious mind, themind that this naked mind works
on, is you just know deep downthat it feels wrong, you know
it's wrong, and you know it'smaking you feel terrible, and
(15:55):
that's what this naked mindlooks at, that part, And
actually thinking about your,your moment where you, where,
you know, you had thatconnection with, with the priest
who leaned into, he completelyconnected with you, completely
heard you, spoke to yoursubconscious through Jesus, and
(16:15):
you felt that relief yourself.
Without the substance for thefirst time perhaps.
So your relief and your, yourdeep need was met and you were
completely seen.
I think what this naked mindallows, I don't know, I'm just,
I'm just thinking things throughfor myself Judy.
It's the first time I've thoughtabout it this way, but I'd like
(16:38):
you to speak to that.
But what I'm, what I'm sort ofseeing here is that this naked
mind allows us to And I thinkit's important for others to see
for themselves what you managedto experience in that special
moment.
Judy Daigle (17:06):
It was done.
It was gone.
And I had no choice in thematter.
So then to look at the feelingsand then to experience all of
that, you're right, naked minddoes.
And I'm doing that with some ofmy folks on Suboxone right now
for the first time in theirlives.
Someone's asked them, well, howdo you feel about where you are
in your journey to not useanything?
(17:28):
And, and naked mind has allowedme.
That I mean just like when wetalk to people about alcohol.
Well, how do you feel about youralcohol?
You know, we had talked earlierabout well, if you were gonna
say to somebody like what wasone of your questions about?
What would you say to somebodyif they wanted to look at their
relationship to reframe theirrelationship with alcohol Right?
(17:50):
I would probably say, well, why?
What's going
Justine Clark (17:54):
Yeah.
Judy Daigle (17:55):
Why?
What do you think about it?
What do you feel about alcohol?
What do you feel about Suboxone?
What do you feel about weed?
What do you feel about any ofthat?
Right?
Because think if someone hadasked me that, I probably, no
one did.
But if someone had, probablywould have said, I am scared to
death because this thing has alife of its own.
(18:16):
And
Justine Clark (18:16):
Hmm.
Judy Daigle (18:17):
me, and no one gets that.
No one, people just say, oh,just stop drinking.
Or just, no, just say no, oh no,you're a piece of garbage
because you can't control it.
B.
S.
I had my own business.
I had, I was, you know, all ofthese successful entrepreneur
things, and all these leadershipmanagement things.
(18:38):
It doesn't matter.
It had a life of its own, and noone asked me, how do you feel
about it?
And that's what, that's thebrilliance of Naked Mind.
do you feel about it?
It's huge.
Barry Condon (18:55):
And I think, I think that's the, that's the
crux of the, the, the a LP,effective liminal psychology
that, that, that Annie has nowsort of formalized the way that
she approaches it.
and you're right.
It, it's, it's about how wefeel.
because logically, anybodywho's, overusing anything knows,
you know, this is not good forme.
(19:16):
They know, that they will bebetter off without it.
and they'd like to be withoutit.
They'd like to be able to, copewith, the day to day without
needing to go there.
but you know, as, and he sort offocuses on, you know, there are
two sides going on in our, inour brain.
and they both want the best foryou, but the powerful
subconscious that makes actually95 percent of our choices for us
(19:38):
Thinks that, running after thedopamine and doing the easy
thing you know, it's a survivalmechanism that goes after
pleasure and safety and whatevermakes us feel good.
And, in some situations that'sreally good, but in this
situation, it's not, and youneed to get in there and, kind
of reason with that part of yourbrain, if you're going to make
any progress and actually feelfree, in the end and not just
(20:01):
someone who's able to resisttemptation.
Judy Daigle (20:03):
think, you know, you said something, we go for
the dopamine hit because itmakes it easier.
Does it?
You know, when I was looking atthe, pre this and really
thinking about it, I thought,you know what, what is the big
deal for me right now to bealcohol free?
The big deal is clarity.
The big deal is freedom.
Even in my most hardestemotions, you know, even when
(20:26):
I'm struggling with people dieand, or this and that, I mean,
heavy, heavy, real emotions.
When I think about that, is itreally easier if I just could
run out and get drunk?
I don't think so.
I don't think so, because why?
Number one, I'm not in my life.
I'm running out and I've gotsomething else taking over my
(20:47):
life.
Right?
And number two, tomorrow I'mgoing to hate myself.
So now I'm not only my grieving,you know, or whatever emotional
stuff I'm going on.
Tomorrow I'm going to be Sixtimes as bad because why because
I've got all this other junk ontop So the dopamine hit is very
(21:07):
temporary and well, Andy talksabout like 20 minutes, right?
Have a drink have a drink andthen wait 20 minutes and see how
it goes I don't know.
I I was thinking about that andI thought really in the whole
freedom bit alcohol free meansLike you don't have that monkey
on your back all the time,
Justine Clark (21:26):
It's, I absolutely love that.
And I think, you've really sortof summarized beautifully how
this naked mind takes alcoholfrom sitting on your lap and
puts it with science andpsychology on the other side of
the room.
It gives you the space.
That's what the freedom is.
Judy Daigle (21:42):
right?
Justine Clark (21:42):
The space between you and substance and how are
you finding the BTTS going foryou so far, Judy?
I'm really interested to knowhow it's going with the opioids.
Yeah,
Judy Daigle (21:56):
really interesting is, right, everybody, society,
society, society, right, we allfall prey, alcohol's everywhere,
and then, oh, you're onSuboxone, you're never gonna get
off Suboxone, I'm here to tellyou there's hope, here to tell
you, yes, you can get offSuboxone, but people are so
afraid, they're so afraid,because why?
Because they get on YouTube, andthey watch things, and, oh, oh,
(22:18):
oh, you can't do this, you can'tdo that, people get so scared.
And I think that's also truewith alcohol.
People like, Oh, I'm hanging onalcohol because alcohol's all I
know.
It's the same as cigarettes,right?
When you stop cigarettes.
When I stopped smoking, I criedfor a week.
It was like, Oh, where's my bestfriend.
mean, right.
So it's the same.
It's the same.
(22:39):
And.
But the fear, they're so afraid,or are you afraid you're going
to use, I ask them.
Are you afraid you're going touse again?
No, done with that.
I'm not going to do thelifestyle.
I'm not going to buy on thestreets.
I'm done with all that.
Okay, well, what are you afraidof?
I don't want to be sick.
Oh, because you've never beensick before.
I mean, and, and what do youmean you're going to be sick?
(22:59):
Well, everybody on YouTube orpeople.
And, and so my focus right now,because this is brand new in my
practice, my focus right now isto really help people understand
that they are who they are andtheir experience is their
experience and to stop listeningto everybody else.
Barry Condon (23:18):
That's brilliant.
I think, I think it's importantthat people understand also
that, that, that change ispossible, that they can, you
know, it is the substance thatthey're taking, that's making.
And that they're not broken.
They're not, and I think we'vetalked about before about labels
and how important is thelanguage that we use.
And traditionally people put alabel on people and say, okay,
(23:42):
you're an alcoholic, you're anaddict, you're, you know,
someone who's, you know.
In recovery forever, lookingover their shoulder and, and you
better watch out.
I think what, what, this nakedmind and, and, and the way that
we, we practice in the way thatwe believe is that actually you
can get past it.
I don't consider myself.
You know, IS smoked for, for 20years and, and, and stopped 10
(24:04):
years ago.
But I don't consider myself a,you know, a, a cig cigarette
addict still, you know, I, I, Idon't consider, consider myself,
you know, a, a cigarette aholic,that has to be careful of
cigarettes.
I don't want anything to do with'em anymore.
I'm past that.
and I'm, I'm really, really gladabout it.
And the same with alcohol.
is, is that something that youcould, you could speak to
Judy Daigle (24:23):
that's like, ooh, Barry, now you hit a soft one.
it all ends with ick.
ick.
Ick.
You are not Ick.
A, you are not Ick and B, Ick isa label and you are a person.
know, you're a mom, you're adad, you're a brother, you're a
sister, you're a, you're afriend and, and you have gray
(24:44):
hair, you have white hair, youhave blue hair.
I don't care what you have, whoyou are.
You have a dependence onwhatever this substance is.
You have a psychologicaldependence, you have a
physiological dependence, butthat doesn't make you, that's
not your identification.
You are not ik.
I'm gonna make a shirt.
Lost ik.
Justine Clark (25:03):
I love that because that's what they say in
this sort of Modern datingprograms that they stop dating
someone because they give themthe ick So that's just
hilarious.
So don't give me the ick.
I love that.
instead of, being given the ick,what three words would you use,
Judy, to summarize what it is tobe, an alcohol freedom finder?
Judy Daigle (25:24):
Wow, you know, that's so big, so big.
My own is miraculous.
My own story is miraculous.
And everybody, just the factthat you're standing and
listening or listening to this,or whatever you're doing, are a
miracle.
Period.
(25:44):
Right?
You are a miracle.
There's nothing above and beyondthat.
You are a miracle.
Just your being here.
So, of course there's hope.
There's always hope.
We all get lost.
We all get tied into the ick theworld.
But in general, you're, you're amiracle.
The next part, my second word issurrender.
(26:05):
why surrender?
Because there's something biggerthan us.
And if we, I call him God andthat's my frame.
Other people frame different.
but in that creation, the biggerthan us takes care of us.
This is my, my belief.
and that I wouldn't even behere, honest to God.
(26:26):
I could tell you horror storiesabout when I was in the
darkness, but now that I'm here,and my job is to help people
understand that my job is tohelp people that their creator
loves them immensely, right?
I mean, you're created, you're amiracle.
And so why wouldn't the creatorlove the miracle?
Why?
It just makes sense.
Right?
(26:46):
And then my third one isgratitude.
just because I'm, I'm, I'm justincredibly grateful that I,
every day I wake up and thankGod that, Oh, no more substance.
Thank you, Jesus.
Now, my whole big thing is ifhe'd help me with sugar, that's
fine.
I put in my, my request, youknow, a little bit of sugar,
please.
if we could just deal with that.
but those are my words ismiraculous, surrender and
(27:08):
gratitude.
And I'm very grateful for thisopportunity.
Cause you guys are just thebest.
Barry Condon (27:14):
Judy, that's brilliant.
Yeah, that, that's just a reallylovely way to some your story up
and your journey up.
if people want to get in touchwith you, and follow you is
there a way that people can andshould get in touch with you?
Judy Daigle (27:26):
I do have a website, many roads
coaching.com.
So I don't, I'm not on Instagramyet.
I'm not on any of that.
I'm, I'm, I'm a work in progressin that regard.
and I, all of my contact info ison that webpage.
So it's many roads coaching.com.
Justine Clark (27:45):
Judy, thank you so much for sharing your
experiences with us.
They are you're always just apleasure to be with you.
So full of light.
and you're also incredibly funnyand we're so grateful to have
you with us.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Judy Daigle (27:58):
you both.
It's been lovely.
Thank you very much.
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