October 26, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, you'll hear how Justin and Barry, 2 normal middle of the road drinkers found their freedom from alcohol. They also discuss how the perceived benefits of alcohol are illusions, how alcohol is the problem and not you. And how life can be a bit like the Truman show!
Our 30-day group programme:
https://www.cleanlifecoaching.org/aff-group
The podcast home page
https://podcast.alcoholfreedomfinders.com/
Justine Clark
https://justineclarktherapy.co.uk/
https://www.instagram.com/wellwithjustine/
Barry Condon
https://www.cleanlifecoaching.org/
https://www.instagram.com/clean.life.coaching/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-condon-577b85294/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the alcohol freedomfinders podcast with Justin
Clark and me Barry Condon.
In this episode, you'll hear howJustin and I to normal middle of
the road drinkers found ourfreedom from alcohol.
We'll also discuss how theperceived benefits of alcohol
are illusions, how alcohol isthe problem and not you.
And her life can be a bit likethe Truman show.
(00:22):
Let's dive in.
Justine Clark (00:24):
So Barry, I guess the best place for us to start
is at the beginning.
So if you can tell me, a littleabout, about your story and what
led you to becoming a coachultimately.
Barry Condon (00:37):
Sure.
Yeah.
I guess, my story is notuncommon, as a, as a English guy
growing up, son of Irishimmigrants.
So that the culture in Englandis very, alcohol centric.
The Irish, traditionally areknown rightly or wrongly, to
love a drink and, Yeah, that wasthe sort of culture I grew up
(00:58):
in.
lots of sports, lots of,celebrations, work hard, play
hard kind of, environment wherewe were pretty privileged.
You know, I went away to, to,to, to private school and, and
we were, you know, it was, a bitof a struggle to, to, to, to put
us through private school formy, for our parents.
So it was very much, you know,work hard, get everything out of
(01:18):
it.
You can play as much sports asyou can.
But.
There was always, you know, the,what I saw from, from, from my
parents and their friends and,and, and, and, you know, they
all, you know, Worked hard, butthey all, you know, after they
played a bit of sport, it wasalways have a drink, always, you
know, have a barbecue, have adrink, have a, you know,
everything was, centered arounddrink.
all, all the sort of downtimeand, Being the youngest of
(01:41):
three, I, my sister is sevenyears older than me, my brother
is nearly five years older thanme, so I was always the
youngest, and hated it, andwanted to be like them, grown
ups, and you know, I saw them,you know, growing up.
You know, drinking the old beerin the old glass of wine, you
know, when they were 15, 16,and, and, and I would be
whatever, you know, 10, 11 and,and, you know, that's what I
(02:03):
wanted to do.
And so when the firstopportunity came, you know,
sneaking drinks here and there.
You know, that's, that's what wedid.
And, and, and, and, and it wasnormal, you know, I didn't ever
drink more than, than, than thepeople around me.
And, you know, when I went away,to university, you know, I
didn't drink, you know, comparedto everybody else, I didn't feel
like I drink that much.
but you're looking back now, it,it, it, I didn't go to enough
(02:26):
lectures because I always hadhangovers and after two years, I
didn't get the exams I needed tostay in.
So it, it, it had a huge impact,you know, and, and back then I
looked at it thinking, Oh, I waslazy and I was useless and blah,
blah, blah.
And I blame myself.
But if I'm honest now, I cansort of see, well, you know, if
I hadn't been drinking, then Iwould, you know, I was quite
capable of, of, of, achieving,you know, what I needed to
(02:49):
achieve to, to, to get through.
So that was, you know, that,that, that, that was, where I
was when I was, a student.
So I got, I got, you know,basically thrown out of, of uni
after two years.
And, then went to the Alps, and,and worked there for, for,
nearly five years.
And, it Was also, you know, aculture of, of, every night is
(03:12):
Saturday night.
And, and I, and I loved it.
And, and, and, you know, I,again, I didn't drink as much
as, as, as some, I was always,You know, considered a bit of a
lightweight compared to, to, tothe guys that, that, that, were
bigger than me and, and, and,more experienced in, in, in, you
know, older and more experiencedand, and, and I was sort of
thought of, you know, that Iwould never become a problem
(03:35):
drinker because I could neverdrink that much.
And, but it, it, it sort of atsome point, I guess when I came
to the Netherlands, when, whenI'd met my brother, the Alps.
We spent a summer in, in Londonand then we went back and did
another season in the Alps andthen, ultimately ended up coming
to the Netherlands where we,where we now live.
(03:57):
And I've lived in the Alps for25 years.
And.
And over the years, I guess thereasons I drank began to shift
as you get older, you get moreresponsibilities, you, you have
children, you have, a job that,that's, maybe, gives you, more
things to stress about, amortgage.
(04:19):
And.
Your time is, time is taken upby different things
Justine Clark (04:24):
It's not Saturday night anymore every night, is
it?
But you're used to drinking as ameans of finishing the day, so I
guess you started, rather thandrinking in society, you started
drinking for yourself thenbecause you were used to that
being how a day is.
Barry Condon (04:40):
yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's right.
I think, I think, At a certainpoint when you've got
responsibilities and childrenand, and, and a career where
you, you know, you can't affordto go to the pub, every night
and you can't afford to turn upwith a hangover and you, to work
and you can't have a hangover,and be a good parent on a
Saturday morning, yeah, thingsshift, And, and, and many people
(05:03):
make that transition from sortof student to, to, to grown up
and, are able to, manage theirdrinking effectively and be much
more mindful.
but for me, it always sort offelt like, okay, well, if, if I
get a chance.
To drink, but I'm really goingto take it.
And, and so if we had, partiesor, you know, I joined a cricket
club and we would, you know, on,on Sundays, you know, we'd be,
(05:25):
drinking after the match and onWednesday nights we'd be
drinking, after practice.
And, yeah, I'd, I'd probably gofor it as much and if not more
than, than, than the most, but,I guess it was, it wasn't until
I.
moved from where I was.
We lived in the middle of theNetherlands for seven or eight
years.
And then, maybe 10 years ago or12 years ago, we moved to, to
(05:49):
the west.
And I didn't really knowanybody.
and and then suddenly lookingback, I realized that it became
less and less of a social thingand more of a thing that I just
sort of did.
And, Annette, my wife, was neverone to sort of to drink at home.
And I got more into drinking andinto, into cooking and I, you
know, I'd open a bottle of wineand, and drink, you know, most
(06:11):
of that while I was cooking.
And, and, and it just sort of.
just gradually crept up on me.
That, that I was drinking alittle bit more, at home, and
then, and then a lot more athome than, than I had done in
the past.
And I guess, yeah, the, the, thereason, why I drank was less to
have fun and be social and, and,and, and more just to sort of.
(06:32):
de stress and maybe numb out alittle bit.
And, and, and, and yeah, so, sothat was, looking back that,
that, that, that was a, a, a, aturning point and,
Justine Clark (06:43):
Can you also just, also just, speak to,
because I know that, at one, atsome point there's a shift where
actually you're not drinking somuch for the pleasure of
drinking at the end of it.
It's become a cycle of cravingsand withdrawal.
Did you hit that as well?
Barry Condon (06:58):
I did, I did.
And, and that, that, that, Iguess, once you sort of start,
once you start questioning, am Idrinking too much?
Is it a problem?
Then, Then it becomes a sort of,yeah, well, once you're aware of
it, then, then it almost startsfulfilling itself.
It, it becomes, a challenge totry and drink a little bit less,
(07:19):
be a bit more mindful, and thenit just becomes more and more
important, and harder, to, tostick to any, any of the kind of
goals that you, that you want tostick to.
And it's, it's incrediblyfrustrating, when you don't
understand why it is that withyour.
With your, you know, you, youmake these plans in the morning
and say to yourself, okay, todayI'm having a day off.
(07:43):
I'll have a drink on Friday.
But today is Wednesday.
I'm not having, I'm not drinkinganymore this week until Friday.
And then by the end of the day,before you've had much chance to
think of it, you know, you'veopened a bottle and you've
drunk, you know, half a glassand you're thinking, hang on a
minute, I swore I wasn't goingto drink and I you know, and now
(08:04):
I've broken it and now I'm anidiot and it's, it's it's yeah,
I know, it's incrediblyfrustrating and I tried, Yeah,
all sorts of, of, of ways to,to, to make promises to myself
and, to, set rules on how many Iwould drink a day and which days
(08:24):
I would drink on, and, when Iwould stop, and yeah, and, and,
and just, just systematicallyit, I, I would break all of
those rules.
Justine Clark (08:33):
So what was it then that after trying and
failing to moderate, what, whatwas the, the moment, if you've
got one, that made you realize
Barry Condon (08:42):
yeah, I guess.
I mean, we're talking now over aperiod of, of maybe, five years
that, that I, I mean, I stoppedsmoking in 2013 just after we
moved, to the West.
And, I also sort of startedtrying to become, healthier and,
and eat better and, and workout.
(09:03):
And I lost a lot of weight and,and, and everything was.
improved, physically.
And, but what that meant wasthat I was more often than not
drinking on an empty stomach.
I was lighter and, and even lessable to, to, to tolerate drink.
And it got to the point where,You know, I'd, I'd spend hours
in the kitchen making these sortof healthy, food and, you know,
(09:25):
but I'd be hoovering red wineand come to the dinner table,
you know, quite drunk and, youknow, I had two young teenage
kids who, who I was justbecoming more and more aware
that I was, I was setting a badexample for.
And it finally sort of came toa, a, a, a kind of rock bottom,
when, I, woke up at the kitchentable, as the kids and, and my
(09:48):
wife came in, in the back doorand it was, it was about one or
two in the morning, and I sortof, I lifted my head up and sort
of saw this pool of blood onthe, on the, on the kitchen
table.
And And sort of just wonder whatthe hell had been going on.
And I sort of, my mind flashedback to, oh yeah, we'd been at
this party.
Drunk a bottle of wine before wewent to the party.
(10:11):
I proceeded to Hoover everythingI could get my hands on while I
was there.
And eventually got, got senthome by my wife cause I was, you
know, barely able to stand up.
Stupidly, I, I, chose to ridemy, ride my bicycle, home, even
though, you know, as I said, Icould barely walk.
And I must have, at some point,come off my bike and, and, and
(10:31):
bang my head against, somethingand smash my glasses into my,
into my face and cut my, cutmyself.
in the end, yeah, the, the, the,the, the blood wasn't a big
deal, but it was just, you know,seeing, the faces of my kids
and, and, and, and my wife, youknow, I could just see that, you
know, she was just, her patiencewas at, at an end.
And, And I just sort of said tomyself there and then, you know,
(10:53):
okay, that's it.
You know, I've, I've struggled.
To try and, you know, moderateand, and, and make rules here
and there.
And I, I've just got to stop.
And, you know, I could just seethat, that the, yeah, I can
still see the, the, the look inthe, in the, in the children's
face, you know, that they werejust sort of like, Oh my gosh,
you know, you know, it's just,you know, the respect was just
(11:13):
disappearing and, and, you know,they were.
Like I said, you know, 14 and17, and it was just sort of such
a bad stage to be influencingthem with, with this is this,
this behavior was okay.
So yeah, I, I, I stopped justlike that.
And, up the following morningand thought, well, how do I make
this?
Okay.
How, how, how do I find, peacewith this, this, this decision
(11:34):
that, you know, how can it bethat it's, it's, you know, I,
I'd always looked at.
Yeah.
People who had to stop drinking,or people who did stop drinking
as people, you know, the, the,you know, you're an alcoholic,
you'll be miserable for the restof your life.
Wishing you were, able to drinkand, constantly, yeah, unable to
have fun.
And, and I.
(11:56):
Wasn't prepared to accept thatthat was going to be the rest of
my life.
And, and it, for whateverreason, that morning, it, it,
it, it came into my head and ithadn't, you know, even though
I'd used, the, the, the book byAlan Carr to stop smoking, I had
never sort of associated, youknow, stopping that addiction,
With, the same, you know, thatthe method that he has for, for,
(12:18):
for stopping smoking is to makeyou realize that the cigarette
is actually doing nothing foryou and it's all an illusion.
And the beliefs we have about,you know, that it'll make you,
more relaxed and it will makeyou concentrate and it'll make
you.
Less bored and, and, and allthese things that, that, that
people think they're gettingfrom a cigarette, are just the
(12:39):
addiction playing games in yourmind.
And, so I wondered, you know,does he have a book?
Did he ever write a book onalcohol?
And he did.
And it, it, the book was prettyclunky sort of copy of, of, of
the, the cigarette, the nicotinebook.
But it made me think, oh yeah,there is a way.
You can actually change yourbeliefs about, alcohol, and get
(13:00):
completely free and not feelthat you're missing out.
And quite quickly I found, thebook by, Annie Grace, her, her
book, this naked mind.
And, yeah, that, that opened up.
Yeah, everything forwardbecause, you know, she came
with, comes at it with, withscience, to, to, show you that
all the things we believe aboutalcohol are largely illusions.
(13:24):
And, and comes with a psychologywhere you can, over time,
deprogram the sort ofsubconscious thoughts we have
and beliefs that we have aboutalcohol and, and, and why we
want to drink.
You can unpick those, with, withthe techniques that she has.
And yeah, no, it was just, justlife changing for me and, yeah,
(13:47):
when, when, I got the, the, the,the email asking if I'd be
interested in, in, training tobe, to be a coach, we're in the
methodology.
The first time I saw it, I sortof, you know, it was very soon,
soon after I'd, soon after I'dstopped.
But then, you know, when I, whenI got, asked again, I guess it
(14:07):
was probably five years later.
I, I jumped at the chancebecause I just sort of realized
that this, what it had given tome and, and I wish I'd known and
been able to, realize that the,the, that, all the things that I
believed weren't actually true,wish I'd known that, you know,
in advance.
10 15 years earlier, or maybeeven before I even started.
(14:28):
Because yeah, it's, you know, Inever expected, that people who
didn't drink could actually befeel freer than the people who,
who, who do drink.
And, and, and that's, that'swhat it's, that's how I feel.
I just think, oh, wow.
You know, I, It's, it's justlike how I feel about
(14:49):
cigarettes, you know, God, no, Iwouldn't, I wouldn't smoke
anymore, you know, that, whywould I, you know, it did
nothing for me other than makeme want another one.
And, and, and it wasn'tactually, it was taking away
more than it was giving.
And, and ultimately that's how Inow look at, look at, at
alcohol.
You know, you get, you get, Thebrief highs, while you're
drinking and, but it's actuallywhat it does to you, in the
(15:11):
moments when you're notdrinking.
It just makes everything elsedull and, and less enjoyable
and, makes you anxious and, andyeah, all these things, you
know, I, I,
Justine Clark (15:22):
Barry, what I love, what I love about your
story is that it's a story of anormal guy growing up.
It's not a story of someone witha disease or a genetic disorder
or an allergy.
This is just how alcoholcumulatively over a long period
of time can stop being somethingthat you do in society to
(15:42):
something that you start doingfor yourself.
And then this naked mind as aprocess enables us to sort of
unpick those beliefs and as yousay, the same is stopping
smoking.
It gives you both the scienceand a new way of creating
beliefs that frees you in a waythat you're more free than
somebody who does drink alcohol.
Barry Condon (16:05):
yeah.
I mean, cause we're, we're, Imean, from a young age, we're,
we're at any age where we'remarked to, so intensely that,
alcohol is the, is the thing todo in every situation.
And it's very, it made veryaspirational.
It's made very cool.
And, and, and, and so, and it,and everyone's doing it, you
know, even now, what are, whatare the statistics?
(16:26):
87 percent in, in the Westernworld of people drink.
And, you know,
Justine Clark (16:31):
well look, Barry, that's brilliant.
You have given us a really goodsummary of your story.
And I can see why you're acoach, and I can see why you're
a brilliant coach.
Because you've got the science,the compassion, and, all the
belief.
Barry Condon (16:43):
Thank you.
If you're looking to take backcontrol of your drinking, why
don't you join our AlcoholFreedom Finders 30 day group
program.
It's a great place to start.
Because we approach it as anexperiment, rather than a
challenge.
Whereas, as well as getting agreat detox, you learn the
science and the psychology aboutwhy you're drunk in the first
place.
So whether you want to stopaltogether, or just become a
(17:04):
more mindful and moderatedrinker, why don't you give it a
crack?
Use the link in the show notesto sign up to our next 30 day
program, and you won't regretit.
Because no one ever woke up inthe morning and said, I wish I'd
had more to drink last night,did they?
Back to the episode.
(17:25):
so Justine.
let's, switch and, hear a littlebit about your backstory and,
and how, what your relationshipwas like with, with alcohol and,
and what led you to be, a coach.
Yeah.
Justine Clark (17:47):
we drink.
I'm a normal girl, normal lady,lived a normal life, and I
actually just got to a pointwhere I realised that I wasn't
happy with how much I wasdrinking.
That's the bottom line.
There's no kind of, you know,getting caught doing something
terrible or, any disastrousmoment.
(18:08):
But the truth is, my life wasn'tone I was liking living.
And I couldn't for the life ofme work out how it, how I got
there.
So looking back now, I can seehow I got there.
I was, came from a small townwhere.
Sport and drinking was somethingwe did every weekend.
From the age of 14, I was goingto the rugby club rooms and
(18:30):
drinking beer.
We were also drinking anddriving from a really young age
in New Zealand.
So that was, super dangerousand, but normalized.
So not only was alcoholnormalized, but drink driving
was normalized growing up.
It wasn't how much is too much,it was can I get away with it?
So that's scary in itselfreally.
(18:52):
I went to university and,although I'm a good girl and I
like to tune up to my lectures,I can safely say that a lot of
the lectures I was, notperforming at my best at because
I was hungover, so I probablydidn't enjoy my lectures as much
as I could of.
And yeah, I got through mydegree okay.
But, there was certainly a lotof drinking and just such
(19:13):
unhealthy drinking all aroundme, everywhere.
And I think that I probablyexperienced my first, without
knowing it at the time, my firstfeelings of feeling like an
outsider, or did I do somethingstupid, or why don't I fit in?
And this is all the day after,so we talk about anxiety now,
(19:33):
but it certainly wasn'tsomething we talked about then.
I, I can remember now, I canbring that sensation to mind, a
feeling that nobody really likedme.
And, and that drove me to sortof want to go out more and be
more fun and, and carefree.
And then I'd, I'd be sort ofconfused why I felt less liked.
Even though there was nothingexplicit there, I just sort of,
(19:55):
just felt the more I drank theless liked I was.
That's on reflection, how I feltabout university.
That's it.
I then went to drama school andthere was less alcohol involved.
So we don't live with my Nanafor a while.
And I remember going, Oh my goshthere's no wine or beer or
anything around, I actuallyrealized, I didn't realize I can
(20:15):
look at it now and go, even thenI'd started to normalize having
wine in the evening as part ofa, you know, de stressing or
it's the end of the day moment.
But things were sort ofseemingly fine.
I never for one minute thoughtthat I had a drinking problem or
that I was drinking too much.
I just thought it was normal.
(20:35):
And then it wasn't until, I hadwas flatting and living with
friends that I realized that Iwas, had moved away from beer
and was drinking more wine.
And I remember this now justDrinking, being able to start to
(20:56):
learn to drink a bottle of wine.
And sometimes overcooking it andgetting a bit sick.
And you know, maybe being sick.
Which isn't that clever orflash.
But not for one second did Ithink I had a problem.
Nor, at all.
I did go on a bit of a healthdrive when I was in my early
twenties.
Because my dad was gettingremarried.
So I did stop drinking.
(21:16):
I did this liver cleanse diet.
And that's it.
Did lots of exercise and I feltand looked amazing.
I was like, wow, this is what Ican look like.
This is what good can look like.
But even then I don't think Iequated alcohol as the reason
why I wasn't living my bestlife.
I just sort of thought somehow Ineed to fit these two things
together.
(21:36):
Somehow I needed to manage to beboth looking my best self and
also being able to be a partygirl.
So then I moved to the UK, whenI was in my twenties and it was
a tough time because I didn'tknow anybody.
I'd left my family, my friends,starting a career all over
again.
I'd gone from working in thefilm and television industry in
(21:57):
New Zealand where I was doingreally well to working in the
basement of my uncle's law firmfiling and au pairing.
It was really tough.
And at that point I was,Drinking by myself for the first
time, drinking beer, and yeah,really feeling almost like I was
drinking, not loneliness away,but I wasn't really in contact
(22:20):
with my feelings in that waythen I didn't sort of think
about myself in that way, but Iguess that's what I was doing.
It was sort of, numbing myselfto feelings, just numbing myself
to feelings, just wanting tohave a nice evening, you know?
And then I started working inthe city, and that was pretty
fun.
And once again, drinking everyday was normalised.
You go, you work all day, you goto the pub after work every day,
(22:42):
you drink your bottle of wine,and then you go home.
And you repeat, pretty much mostdays of the week.
All normal, right?
I'm a normal drinker.
Just normal, normal, normal.
Everything's just perfectly finehere.
Nothing to say.
Come from a family
Barry Condon (22:54):
amazing when you look back now and thinking that
that's, that's the middle of theroad.
That's, that's, that's, that's,what, Obviously in New Zealand
and in the UK and in Ireland andmuch of the world, much of the
Western world, that's normal,not unusual.
Justine Clark (23:09):
So we're already talking about, before we go too
far for both of us, family life,alcohol is involved.
Sporting life, alcohol'sinvolved, academic life,
alcohol's involved, and sociallife, you know, alcohol
Barry Condon (23:24):
Did we say work?
Yeah.
Work
Justine Clark (23:25):
work, work.
I forgot work.
Yeah.
And that's before, it gets intothe realm of self which is,
probably where I'll head nextbecause then comes marriage and
children and small children andI had no idea as an independent
woman how I would feel.
So all of a sudden beresponsible for these two small
(23:46):
creatures all of the time.
So actually not being able, evennot being able to go out,
feeling a little bit trappedprobably, that I couldn't go
out.
And you know, if, if the kidswere sick, I couldn't go to work
or couldn't go to the gym.
If it was half term, I couldn'tgo to the gym.
I didn't have many sort ofoutlets really for, for the, for
(24:07):
escape.
And, I started using alcohol asmy escape.
That connected in with thedepression of being a, I guess,
working in a, living in asociety where I was the one that
was at home with the kids andsort of feeling that the
struggle of that, I think thosetwo things combined and the
accumulation now of years ofdrinking habitually meant that I
(24:29):
had started drinking for myselfto make myself feel okay at the
end of the day and not
Barry Condon (24:36):
You give it, you give it another job to do.
And that, that you don't realizeit so much.
It's not conscious choice, butyeah.
When you, the more jobs you givealcohol to do, to celebrate, to,
to, to commiserate or just tosoothe or whatever it is.
Yeah.
The, the, the more jobs you giveit, the more, ingrained it
becomes.
Justine Clark (24:57):
And I think at that point I'd stopped having
hangovers, really.
I was able to drink, areasonable amount, you know, and
I was often drinking, Nick and Iwould drink, you know, share a
bottle of wine and maybe openthe second more often than not.
And, but drink a lot, drink alot more at parties.
But I think I probably hadalmost permanent hangovers.
(25:19):
low grade hangover and was doinga lot of exercise on top of the
hangover as well.
So really bad for your systemto, to play really party hard
and then still, try and trainand, and do everything else
besides.
So I, then I felt like I was ina bit of a spiral, like you're
talking about going, in themorning and today's not the day
I'm going to drink.
I'd go to the gym to start with,get all that done.
(25:41):
Cook healthy meal for me and thekids and my husband.
And then, but just really needsomething to lift me up, to make
me special, make the dayspecial, make, give myself
meaning.
So, yeah, enter wine and thenrepeat that cycle.
So it was getting into a littlecycle that I wasn't enjoying and
wasn't liking.
but it wasn't until I startedhaving things happen like, my
(26:03):
daughter started texting me alot when I was out when you're
coming home, mummy.
Like they were worried for mysafety.
This is like a, I think from theage of my daughter being nine or
ten, she just didn't like it.
Didn't like, didn't want to giveme a good night cuddle probably.
Didn't like the smell of me.
And I started, that startedreally impacting me as well.
So that combined with the sortof anxiety and then I got a
(26:27):
serious health condition aswell.
And I just thought, right, I'mSomething's got to give.
And let's not forget, I also hadthe moment with a bunch of
friends one night out where, Ican't really remember what
happened.
I'm guessing I must have saidsomething hurtful.
I know I said something hurtful.
In fact, I said somethinghurtful.
(26:47):
Something I would never say tosomebody in the cold light of
day.
Something I'm not proud of.
I wish I knew what it wasbecause I actually don't even
know what it was, but I knowdeep in myself that it would
have been something.
that they did not want to hearor didn't need to hear.
And that friend was kind enoughto tell me the next day that she
didn't want to be around meanymore if I was going to be
(27:09):
drinking.
And that was it.
That was like that sinkingfeeling in my whole body,
knowing that something had tochange because I couldn't live a
life where I was feeling ashamedof myself at home and ashamed of
myself socially.
And it was affecting my health.
So it's kind of, it sort ofsnowballed into this whole big
thing of, who am I now?
(27:30):
What is this?
Is this who I am?
And then I started going throughthe process of, unraveling.
And I will say, the first time Icame across the alcohol
experiment, I knew what wouldhappen at the end of that book.
And I knew it meant stoppingalcohol, so I couldn't read it.
So my journey was a bit slowerthan yours, Barry.
I ended up reading quite a lotof what's called Quit Lit, which
(27:51):
is books about, stoppingdrinking.
I did dry Januaries every year,like you, I spent about five
years sort of, up to the pointwhere it was a, an end of, end
of day situation where I triedhypnotherapy.
I tried three, you know,moderation.
I tried all sorts of things, butfor me, for me, for my story, I
(28:12):
think it got to the point whereI needed a good jolly look at
things and a break.
And ultimately discovering thisnaked mind.
has put me here and alcohol overthere.
And the biggest thing for me wasI realized it was not me, but
there's nothing wrong with me,but I get to be the person that
I want to be.
I get to be the person that I'mproud of every day, turn up for
(28:35):
myself every day.
And I've put alcohol over therebecause that's not something I
need to have in my life.
Now, I'm not saying that foreverybody, it's going to be the
same too much for me.
It's different to what too muchfor, for other people, you know,
might be.
But for me, the methodologiesfreed me from, freed me from a
life that I didn't want to live.
(28:56):
Yeah,
Barry Condon (28:58):
Yeah, brilliant.
I mean, it's true.
And it's, it's not that, wethink that, that, you know,
that, that no one should beallowed to drink and there are
no rules.
It's what, what for me, at leastit, it may gave me a view.
Allowed me to see that there wasan alternative.
And I, I, I know anything aboutthat.
There was quick lit or, oranything.
I just thought it's AlcoholicsAnonymous and I could never see
(29:20):
myself walking into, you know, achurch basement, and, and, and
saying I'm an alcoholic.
'cause I didn't really feel likean alcoholic.
I, I, I drank too much.
But, but it, it wasn't, youknow, it wasn't what my idea was
of an alcoholic, you know, theon a park bench drinking out of
a brown paper bag, having losteverything.
I was functioning really well.
I, I had, you know, a goodcareer.
(29:41):
I had a lovely family and amortgage and a house and, and,
and, everything going for meother than, I would just, you
know, couldn't get a grip on, onmy drinking.
And, it was, it's just such ashame looking back that, that,
That I didn't know earlier thatthere were alternatives, that
there are other ways to look atit and, and, and that it can
feel like this, you know, that,that, that, that, yeah, it's
(30:02):
amazing.
I mean your, your story is, is,is I guess similar to my,
different but similar to mine,that it's that no huge extreme,
and yet at some point you switchand you're drinking to reward
yourself, to soothe yourself,to, just to, you know, giving it
that job, and, you know, eventhat sort of part of, of, of
culture that it's, you know,that's what you do when you're
(30:24):
stressed.
That's what you do.
You know, there's the, the sortof mummy wine culture, you know,
that, you know, you deserve adrink at the end of the day and,
and kids are hard work to have adrink and, and,
Justine Clark (30:35):
It's all true.
they are hard work.
Barry Condon (30:37):
they are
Justine Clark (30:38):
weren't, but we weren't given any, the thing is,
I, I, what this naked mind hasdone, For me, as it's given me
alternatives, I feel like we're,what's that, program where Jim
Carey was living in a bubble.
Everyone's in the whole,
Barry Condon (30:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Justine Clark (30:51):
in The, TV show.
Barry Condon (30:53):
Mm.
The Truman
Justine Clark (30:55):
the, we're all in this Truman show situation
where, you know, everybody hasto be drinking alcohol in order
to celebrate, commiserate, destress, whatever.
And that you have these momentswhere you go and detox or
refresh, but by and large, we'rein the system.
that we're constantly, you know,going to the watering hole,
(31:16):
whereas, You know, theopportunity for me to step
outside of the watering holescenario, outside of the Truman
Show and look in at my lifewhere I can safely get in a car
any time of the day or night.
So if my child needs me at threein the morning, I can get in a
car and go and get her.
And I get up every morning atsix or seven.
7 and, you know, I can meditateand, but not feel like I'm half
(31:41):
in it and half there and doingit because I have to, because I
should.
It's taken a lot of the shouldsout of my life.
I can now, you know, assessthings on their merits rather
than how am I going to balancegetting through to this point
before I, it's a glass of winetime.
Barry Condon (31:59):
Yeah.
And it's, it's, it's sodifficult to, to imagine from,
from, our old, the point of viewof our old selves.
That, that, that, that, that,that, that, that having the
drink felt like the only time ofrelief, that only time of fun,
the only time of actuallyGetting to relax and feeling
okay.
(32:20):
And so you think, well, how cannot doing that be the answer?
And, and the, the, the science,that I found so powerful in, in
this naked mind, where you, yourealize that it's, it's the
aftereffect every time of adrink that's actually putting
you in that sort of frail stateof, of, of, heightened stress
and lowered mood and low,lowered, susceptibility to
(32:42):
pleasure that, that means thatyou end up needing to, to, to,
to take something to, to bringyou back up again each time.
And so that becomes more andmore, attractive when you're
feeling, When, when life doesget tough, it, it then becomes
very quickly unbearable withoutit.
Justine Clark (33:00):
Look, the truth of the matter is.
I didn't stop drinking because Ididn't like drinking.
At all.
I stopped drinking because Icouldn't bear how awful I felt
the rest of the time.
Barry Condon (33:13):
Yeah.
And, and it's amazing how muchwe put up with, when you think
of what, you know, the, evenfrom the beginning, you know,
the hangovers, the throwing up,the, the, the, well, what we
don't realize is that it, youknow, when you think you've got
over your hangover after acouple of days, You're, you're
still actually, your body'sstill there preparing for the
next one because it thinks, Oh,well, I don't want to go through
(33:34):
that again.
I'm prepared.
And so it heightens its, itsstress levels so that you don't
get sedated too quickly and itheightens or it shuts down the,
the receptors for, for pleasure.
So it doesn't get overstimulatedand, and cause it likes, it
likes everything in balance and.
And alcohol just sort of throwsa grenade into your
neurochemistry and, and, and,and shakes everything all the
(33:55):
wrong way.
And, but yeah, we, we take thatas normal, that sort of, you
know, the, Oh, this is whatgrown up life is, you know, life
is, you know, mundane and, and,and stressful.
And, you know, we have to waitfor the weekend until we can
have a few drinks to have fun.
And that's what we're.
That's what everyone, you know,is, is led to believe and, and,
(34:17):
and experiences when you, whenyou're a regular drinker.
Justine Clark (34:20):
And I think the reason that I want to be a coach
is because I want to reach outto the people who are frightened
for themselves of admitting thatthey have a problem.
Because they don't realise thatthey don't have a problem, it's
alcohol that's the problem.
But I want to be there for themto be able to, say, look, my
(34:41):
story is not dissimilar toyours, I'm sure.
And there is another way and,and not only is there another
way, but, but it's, it's easyand it's liberating.
So, that's why we're heretelling our story.
Barry Condon (34:53):
100%, 100%, yeah, really well said.
Shall we, shall we wrap up?
Justine Clark (35:00):
Yeah, that's good.
Barry Condon (35:01):
And, we'll be back, in a, with a new episode,
very, very soon.
Justine Clark (35:05):
Lovely to speak with you always, Barry.
Barry Condon (35:07):
Yep, yep, see you soon.
Justine Clark (35:09):
Bye! Mhm.
Barry Condon (35:10):
Bye.
alcoholfreedomfinders.com
Welcome to the alcohol freedomfinders podcast with Justin
Clark and me Barry Condon.
In this episode, you'll hear howJustin and I to normal middle of
the road drinkers found ourfreedom from alcohol.
We'll also discuss how theperceived benefits of alcohol
are illusions, how alcohol isthe problem and not you.
And her life can be a bit likethe Truman show.
(00:22):
Let's dive in.
Justine Clark (00:24):
So Barry, I guess the best place for us to start
is at the beginning.
So if you can tell me, a littleabout, about your story and what
led you to becoming a coachultimately.
Barry Condon (00:37):
Sure.
Yeah.
I guess, my story is notuncommon, as a, as a English guy
growing up, son of Irishimmigrants.
So that the culture in Englandis very, alcohol centric.
The Irish, traditionally areknown rightly or wrongly, to
love a drink and, Yeah, that wasthe sort of culture I grew up
(00:58):
in.
lots of sports, lots of,celebrations, work hard, play
hard kind of, environment wherewe were pretty privileged.
You know, I went away to, to,to, to private school and, and
we were, you know, it was, a bitof a struggle to, to, to, to put
us through private school formy, for our parents.
So it was very much, you know,work hard, get everything out of
(01:18):
it.
You can play as much sports asyou can.
But.
There was always, you know, the,what I saw from, from, from my
parents and their friends and,and, and, and, you know, they
all, you know, Worked hard, butthey all, you know, after they
played a bit of sport, it wasalways have a drink, always, you
know, have a barbecue, have adrink, have a, you know,
everything was, centered arounddrink.
all, all the sort of downtimeand, Being the youngest of
(01:41):
three, I, my sister is sevenyears older than me, my brother
is nearly five years older thanme, so I was always the
youngest, and hated it, andwanted to be like them, grown
ups, and you know, I saw them,you know, growing up.
You know, drinking the old beerin the old glass of wine, you
know, when they were 15, 16,and, and, and I would be
whatever, you know, 10, 11 and,and, you know, that's what I
(02:03):
wanted to do.
And so when the firstopportunity came, you know,
sneaking drinks here and there.
You know, that's, that's what wedid.
And, and, and, and, and it wasnormal, you know, I didn't ever
drink more than, than, than thepeople around me.
And, you know, when I went away,to university, you know, I
didn't drink, you know, comparedto everybody else, I didn't feel
like I drink that much.
but you're looking back now, it,it, it, I didn't go to enough
(02:26):
lectures because I always hadhangovers and after two years, I
didn't get the exams I needed tostay in.
So it, it, it had a huge impact,you know, and, and back then I
looked at it thinking, Oh, I waslazy and I was useless and blah,
blah, blah.
And I blame myself.
But if I'm honest now, I cansort of see, well, you know, if
I hadn't been drinking, then Iwould, you know, I was quite
capable of, of, of, achieving,you know, what I needed to
(02:49):
achieve to, to, to get through.
So that was, you know, that,that, that, that was, where I
was when I was, a student.
So I got, I got, you know,basically thrown out of, of uni
after two years.
And, then went to the Alps, and,and worked there for, for,
nearly five years.
And, it Was also, you know, aculture of, of, every night is
(03:12):
Saturday night.
And, and I, and I loved it.
And, and, and, you know, I,again, I didn't drink as much
as, as, as some, I was always,You know, considered a bit of a
lightweight compared to, to, tothe guys that, that, that, were
bigger than me and, and, and,more experienced in, in, in, you
know, older and more experiencedand, and, and I was sort of
thought of, you know, that Iwould never become a problem
(03:35):
drinker because I could neverdrink that much.
And, but it, it, it sort of atsome point, I guess when I came
to the Netherlands, when, whenI'd met my brother, the Alps.
We spent a summer in, in Londonand then we went back and did
another season in the Alps andthen, ultimately ended up coming
to the Netherlands where we,where we now live.
(03:57):
And I've lived in the Alps for25 years.
And.
And over the years, I guess thereasons I drank began to shift
as you get older, you get moreresponsibilities, you, you have
children, you have, a job that,that's, maybe, gives you, more
things to stress about, amortgage.
(04:19):
And.
Your time is, time is taken upby different things
Justine Clark (04:24):
It's not Saturday night anymore every night, is
it?
But you're used to drinking as ameans of finishing the day, so I
guess you started, rather thandrinking in society, you started
drinking for yourself thenbecause you were used to that
being how a day is.
Barry Condon (04:40):
yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's right.
I think, I think, At a certainpoint when you've got
responsibilities and childrenand, and, and a career where
you, you know, you can't affordto go to the pub, every night
and you can't afford to turn upwith a hangover and you, to work
and you can't have a hangover,and be a good parent on a
Saturday morning, yeah, thingsshift, And, and, and many people
(05:03):
make that transition from sortof student to, to, to grown up
and, are able to, manage theirdrinking effectively and be much
more mindful.
but for me, it always sort offelt like, okay, well, if, if I
get a chance.
To drink, but I'm really goingto take it.
And, and so if we had, partiesor, you know, I joined a cricket
club and we would, you know, on,on Sundays, you know, we'd be,
(05:25):
drinking after the match and onWednesday nights we'd be
drinking, after practice.
And, yeah, I'd, I'd probably gofor it as much and if not more
than, than, than the most, but,I guess it was, it wasn't until
I.
moved from where I was.
We lived in the middle of theNetherlands for seven or eight
years.
And then, maybe 10 years ago or12 years ago, we moved to, to
(05:49):
the west.
And I didn't really knowanybody.
and and then suddenly lookingback, I realized that it became
less and less of a social thingand more of a thing that I just
sort of did.
And, Annette, my wife, was neverone to sort of to drink at home.
And I got more into drinking andinto, into cooking and I, you
know, I'd open a bottle of wineand, and drink, you know, most
(06:11):
of that while I was cooking.
And, and, and it just sort of.
just gradually crept up on me.
That, that I was drinking alittle bit more, at home, and
then, and then a lot more athome than, than I had done in
the past.
And I guess, yeah, the, the, thereason, why I drank was less to
have fun and be social and, and,and, and more just to sort of.
(06:32):
de stress and maybe numb out alittle bit.
And, and, and, and yeah, so, sothat was, looking back that,
that, that, that was a, a, a, aturning point and,
Justine Clark (06:43):
Can you also just, also just, speak to,
because I know that, at one, atsome point there's a shift where
actually you're not drinking somuch for the pleasure of
drinking at the end of it.
It's become a cycle of cravingsand withdrawal.
Did you hit that as well?
Barry Condon (06:58):
I did, I did.
And, and that, that, that, Iguess, once you sort of start,
once you start questioning, am Idrinking too much?
Is it a problem?
Then, Then it becomes a sort of,yeah, well, once you're aware of
it, then, then it almost startsfulfilling itself.
It, it becomes, a challenge totry and drink a little bit less,
(07:19):
be a bit more mindful, and thenit just becomes more and more
important, and harder, to, tostick to any, any of the kind of
goals that you, that you want tostick to.
And it's, it's incrediblyfrustrating, when you don't
understand why it is that withyour.
With your, you know, you, youmake these plans in the morning
and say to yourself, okay, todayI'm having a day off.
(07:43):
I'll have a drink on Friday.
But today is Wednesday.
I'm not having, I'm not drinkinganymore this week until Friday.
And then by the end of the day,before you've had much chance to
think of it, you know, you'veopened a bottle and you've
drunk, you know, half a glassand you're thinking, hang on a
minute, I swore I wasn't goingto drink and I you know, and now
(08:04):
I've broken it and now I'm anidiot and it's, it's it's yeah,
I know, it's incrediblyfrustrating and I tried, Yeah,
all sorts of, of, of ways to,to, to make promises to myself
and, to, set rules on how many Iwould drink a day and which days
(08:24):
I would drink on, and, when Iwould stop, and yeah, and, and,
and just, just systematicallyit, I, I would break all of
those rules.
Justine Clark (08:33):
So what was it then that after trying and
failing to moderate, what, whatwas the, the moment, if you've
got one, that made you realize
Barry Condon (08:42):
yeah, I guess.
I mean, we're talking now over aperiod of, of maybe, five years
that, that I, I mean, I stoppedsmoking in 2013 just after we
moved, to the West.
And, I also sort of startedtrying to become, healthier and,
and eat better and, and workout.
(09:03):
And I lost a lot of weight and,and, and everything was.
improved, physically.
And, but what that meant wasthat I was more often than not
drinking on an empty stomach.
I was lighter and, and even lessable to, to, to tolerate drink.
And it got to the point where,You know, I'd, I'd spend hours
in the kitchen making these sortof healthy, food and, you know,
(09:25):
but I'd be hoovering red wineand come to the dinner table,
you know, quite drunk and, youknow, I had two young teenage
kids who, who I was justbecoming more and more aware
that I was, I was setting a badexample for.
And it finally sort of came toa, a, a, a kind of rock bottom,
when, I, woke up at the kitchentable, as the kids and, and my
(09:48):
wife came in, in the back doorand it was, it was about one or
two in the morning, and I sortof, I lifted my head up and sort
of saw this pool of blood onthe, on the, on the kitchen
table.
And And sort of just wonder whatthe hell had been going on.
And I sort of, my mind flashedback to, oh yeah, we'd been at
this party.
Drunk a bottle of wine before wewent to the party.
(10:11):
I proceeded to Hoover everythingI could get my hands on while I
was there.
And eventually got, got senthome by my wife cause I was, you
know, barely able to stand up.
Stupidly, I, I, chose to ridemy, ride my bicycle, home, even
though, you know, as I said, Icould barely walk.
And I must have, at some point,come off my bike and, and, and
(10:31):
bang my head against, somethingand smash my glasses into my,
into my face and cut my, cutmyself.
in the end, yeah, the, the, the,the, the blood wasn't a big
deal, but it was just, you know,seeing, the faces of my kids
and, and, and, and my wife, youknow, I could just see that, you
know, she was just, her patiencewas at, at an end.
And, And I just sort of said tomyself there and then, you know,
(10:53):
okay, that's it.
You know, I've, I've struggled.
To try and, you know, moderateand, and, and make rules here
and there.
And I, I've just got to stop.
And, you know, I could just seethat, that the, yeah, I can
still see the, the, the look inthe, in the, in the children's
face, you know, that they werejust sort of like, Oh my gosh,
you know, you know, it's just,you know, the respect was just
(11:13):
disappearing and, and, you know,they were.
Like I said, you know, 14 and17, and it was just sort of such
a bad stage to be influencingthem with, with this is this,
this behavior was okay.
So yeah, I, I, I stopped justlike that.
And, up the following morningand thought, well, how do I make
this?
Okay.
How, how, how do I find, peacewith this, this, this decision
(11:34):
that, you know, how can it bethat it's, it's, you know, I,
I'd always looked at.
Yeah.
People who had to stop drinking,or people who did stop drinking
as people, you know, the, the,you know, you're an alcoholic,
you'll be miserable for the restof your life.
Wishing you were, able to drinkand, constantly, yeah, unable to
have fun.
And, and I.
(11:56):
Wasn't prepared to accept thatthat was going to be the rest of
my life.
And, and it, for whateverreason, that morning, it, it,
it, it came into my head and ithadn't, you know, even though
I'd used, the, the, the book byAlan Carr to stop smoking, I had
never sort of associated, youknow, stopping that addiction,
With, the same, you know, thatthe method that he has for, for,
(12:18):
for stopping smoking is to makeyou realize that the cigarette
is actually doing nothing foryou and it's all an illusion.
And the beliefs we have about,you know, that it'll make you,
more relaxed and it will makeyou concentrate and it'll make
you.
Less bored and, and, and allthese things that, that, that
people think they're gettingfrom a cigarette, are just the
(12:39):
addiction playing games in yourmind.
And, so I wondered, you know,does he have a book?
Did he ever write a book onalcohol?
And he did.
And it, it, the book was prettyclunky sort of copy of, of, of
the, the cigarette, the nicotinebook.
But it made me think, oh yeah,there is a way.
You can actually change yourbeliefs about, alcohol, and get
(13:00):
completely free and not feelthat you're missing out.
And quite quickly I found, thebook by, Annie Grace, her, her
book, this naked mind.
And, yeah, that, that opened up.
Yeah, everything forwardbecause, you know, she came
with, comes at it with, withscience, to, to, show you that
all the things we believe aboutalcohol are largely illusions.
(13:24):
And, and comes with a psychologywhere you can, over time,
deprogram the sort ofsubconscious thoughts we have
and beliefs that we have aboutalcohol and, and, and why we
want to drink.
You can unpick those, with, withthe techniques that she has.
And yeah, no, it was just, justlife changing for me and, yeah,
(13:47):
when, when, I got the, the, the,the email asking if I'd be
interested in, in, training tobe, to be a coach, we're in the
methodology.
The first time I saw it, I sortof, you know, it was very soon,
soon after I'd, soon after I'dstopped.
But then, you know, when I, whenI got, asked again, I guess it
(14:07):
was probably five years later.
I, I jumped at the chancebecause I just sort of realized
that this, what it had given tome and, and I wish I'd known and
been able to, realize that the,the, that, all the things that I
believed weren't actually true,wish I'd known that, you know,
in advance.
10 15 years earlier, or maybeeven before I even started.
(14:28):
Because yeah, it's, you know, Inever expected, that people who
didn't drink could actually befeel freer than the people who,
who, who do drink.
And, and, and that's, that'swhat it's, that's how I feel.
I just think, oh, wow.
You know, I, It's, it's justlike how I feel about
(14:49):
cigarettes, you know, God, no, Iwouldn't, I wouldn't smoke
anymore, you know, that, whywould I, you know, it did
nothing for me other than makeme want another one.
And, and, and it wasn'tactually, it was taking away
more than it was giving.
And, and ultimately that's how Inow look at, look at, at
alcohol.
You know, you get, you get, Thebrief highs, while you're
drinking and, but it's actuallywhat it does to you, in the
(15:11):
moments when you're notdrinking.
It just makes everything elsedull and, and less enjoyable
and, makes you anxious and, andyeah, all these things, you
know, I, I,
Justine Clark (15:22):
Barry, what I love, what I love about your
story is that it's a story of anormal guy growing up.
It's not a story of someone witha disease or a genetic disorder
or an allergy.
This is just how alcoholcumulatively over a long period
of time can stop being somethingthat you do in society to
(15:42):
something that you start doingfor yourself.
And then this naked mind as aprocess enables us to sort of
unpick those beliefs and as yousay, the same is stopping
smoking.
It gives you both the scienceand a new way of creating
beliefs that frees you in a waythat you're more free than
somebody who does drink alcohol.
Barry Condon (16:05):
yeah.
I mean, cause we're, we're, Imean, from a young age, we're,
we're at any age where we'remarked to, so intensely that,
alcohol is the, is the thing todo in every situation.
And it's very, it made veryaspirational.
It's made very cool.
And, and, and, and so, and it,and everyone's doing it, you
know, even now, what are, whatare the statistics?
(16:26):
87 percent in, in the Westernworld of people drink.
And, you know,
Justine Clark (16:31):
well look, Barry, that's brilliant.
You have given us a really goodsummary of your story.
And I can see why you're acoach, and I can see why you're
a brilliant coach.
Because you've got the science,the compassion, and, all the
belief.
Barry Condon (16:43):
Thank you.
If you're looking to take backcontrol of your drinking, why
don't you join our AlcoholFreedom Finders 30 day group
program.
It's a great place to start.
Because we approach it as anexperiment, rather than a
challenge.
Whereas, as well as getting agreat detox, you learn the
science and the psychology aboutwhy you're drunk in the first
place.
So whether you want to stopaltogether, or just become a
(17:04):
more mindful and moderatedrinker, why don't you give it a
crack?
Use the link in the show notesto sign up to our next 30 day
program, and you won't regretit.
Because no one ever woke up inthe morning and said, I wish I'd
had more to drink last night,did they?
Back to the episode.
(17:25):
so Justine.
let's, switch and, hear a littlebit about your backstory and,
and how, what your relationshipwas like with, with alcohol and,
and what led you to be, a coach.
Yeah.
Justine Clark (17:47):
we drink.
I'm a normal girl, normal lady,lived a normal life, and I
actually just got to a pointwhere I realised that I wasn't
happy with how much I wasdrinking.
That's the bottom line.
There's no kind of, you know,getting caught doing something
terrible or, any disastrousmoment.
(18:08):
But the truth is, my life wasn'tone I was liking living.
And I couldn't for the life ofme work out how it, how I got
there.
So looking back now, I can seehow I got there.
I was, came from a small townwhere.
Sport and drinking was somethingwe did every weekend.
From the age of 14, I was goingto the rugby club rooms and
(18:30):
drinking beer.
We were also drinking anddriving from a really young age
in New Zealand.
So that was, super dangerousand, but normalized.
So not only was alcoholnormalized, but drink driving
was normalized growing up.
It wasn't how much is too much,it was can I get away with it?
So that's scary in itselfreally.
(18:52):
I went to university and,although I'm a good girl and I
like to tune up to my lectures,I can safely say that a lot of
the lectures I was, notperforming at my best at because
I was hungover, so I probablydidn't enjoy my lectures as much
as I could of.
And yeah, I got through mydegree okay.
But, there was certainly a lotof drinking and just such
(19:13):
unhealthy drinking all aroundme, everywhere.
And I think that I probablyexperienced my first, without
knowing it at the time, my firstfeelings of feeling like an
outsider, or did I do somethingstupid, or why don't I fit in?
And this is all the day after,so we talk about anxiety now,
(19:33):
but it certainly wasn'tsomething we talked about then.
I, I can remember now, I canbring that sensation to mind, a
feeling that nobody really likedme.
And, and that drove me to sortof want to go out more and be
more fun and, and carefree.
And then I'd, I'd be sort ofconfused why I felt less liked.
Even though there was nothingexplicit there, I just sort of,
(19:55):
just felt the more I drank theless liked I was.
That's on reflection, how I feltabout university.
That's it.
I then went to drama school andthere was less alcohol involved.
So we don't live with my Nanafor a while.
And I remember going, Oh my goshthere's no wine or beer or
anything around, I actuallyrealized, I didn't realize I can
(20:15):
look at it now and go, even thenI'd started to normalize having
wine in the evening as part ofa, you know, de stressing or
it's the end of the day moment.
But things were sort ofseemingly fine.
I never for one minute thoughtthat I had a drinking problem or
that I was drinking too much.
I just thought it was normal.
(20:35):
And then it wasn't until, I hadwas flatting and living with
friends that I realized that Iwas, had moved away from beer
and was drinking more wine.
And I remember this now justDrinking, being able to start to
(20:56):
learn to drink a bottle of wine.
And sometimes overcooking it andgetting a bit sick.
And you know, maybe being sick.
Which isn't that clever orflash.
But not for one second did Ithink I had a problem.
Nor, at all.
I did go on a bit of a healthdrive when I was in my early
twenties.
Because my dad was gettingremarried.
So I did stop drinking.
(21:16):
I did this liver cleanse diet.
And that's it.
Did lots of exercise and I feltand looked amazing.
I was like, wow, this is what Ican look like.
This is what good can look like.
But even then I don't think Iequated alcohol as the reason
why I wasn't living my bestlife.
I just sort of thought somehow Ineed to fit these two things
together.
(21:36):
Somehow I needed to manage to beboth looking my best self and
also being able to be a partygirl.
So then I moved to the UK, whenI was in my twenties and it was
a tough time because I didn'tknow anybody.
I'd left my family, my friends,starting a career all over
again.
I'd gone from working in thefilm and television industry in
(21:57):
New Zealand where I was doingreally well to working in the
basement of my uncle's law firmfiling and au pairing.
It was really tough.
And at that point I was,Drinking by myself for the first
time, drinking beer, and yeah,really feeling almost like I was
drinking, not loneliness away,but I wasn't really in contact
(22:20):
with my feelings in that waythen I didn't sort of think
about myself in that way, but Iguess that's what I was doing.
It was sort of, numbing myselfto feelings, just numbing myself
to feelings, just wanting tohave a nice evening, you know?
And then I started working inthe city, and that was pretty
fun.
And once again, drinking everyday was normalised.
You go, you work all day, you goto the pub after work every day,
(22:42):
you drink your bottle of wine,and then you go home.
And you repeat, pretty much mostdays of the week.
All normal, right?
I'm a normal drinker.
Just normal, normal, normal.
Everything's just perfectly finehere.
Nothing to say.
Come from a family
Barry Condon (22:54):
amazing when you look back now and thinking that
that's, that's the middle of theroad.
That's, that's, that's, that's,what, Obviously in New Zealand
and in the UK and in Ireland andmuch of the world, much of the
Western world, that's normal,not unusual.
Justine Clark (23:09):
So we're already talking about, before we go too
far for both of us, family life,alcohol is involved.
Sporting life, alcohol'sinvolved, academic life,
alcohol's involved, and sociallife, you know, alcohol
Barry Condon (23:24):
Did we say work?
Yeah.
Work
Justine Clark (23:25):
work, work.
I forgot work.
Yeah.
And that's before, it gets intothe realm of self which is,
probably where I'll head nextbecause then comes marriage and
children and small children andI had no idea as an independent
woman how I would feel.
So all of a sudden beresponsible for these two small
(23:46):
creatures all of the time.
So actually not being able, evennot being able to go out,
feeling a little bit trappedprobably, that I couldn't go
out.
And you know, if, if the kidswere sick, I couldn't go to work
or couldn't go to the gym.
If it was half term, I couldn'tgo to the gym.
I didn't have many sort ofoutlets really for, for the, for
(24:07):
escape.
And, I started using alcohol asmy escape.
That connected in with thedepression of being a, I guess,
working in a, living in asociety where I was the one that
was at home with the kids andsort of feeling that the
struggle of that, I think thosetwo things combined and the
accumulation now of years ofdrinking habitually meant that I
(24:29):
had started drinking for myselfto make myself feel okay at the
end of the day and not
Barry Condon (24:36):
You give it, you give it another job to do.
And that, that you don't realizeit so much.
It's not conscious choice, butyeah.
When you, the more jobs you givealcohol to do, to celebrate, to,
to, to commiserate or just tosoothe or whatever it is.
Yeah.
The, the, the more jobs you giveit, the more, ingrained it
becomes.
Justine Clark (24:57):
And I think at that point I'd stopped having
hangovers, really.
I was able to drink, areasonable amount, you know, and
I was often drinking, Nick and Iwould drink, you know, share a
bottle of wine and maybe openthe second more often than not.
And, but drink a lot, drink alot more at parties.
But I think I probably hadalmost permanent hangovers.
(25:19):
low grade hangover and was doinga lot of exercise on top of the
hangover as well.
So really bad for your systemto, to play really party hard
and then still, try and trainand, and do everything else
besides.
So I, then I felt like I was ina bit of a spiral, like you're
talking about going, in themorning and today's not the day
I'm going to drink.
I'd go to the gym to start with,get all that done.
(25:41):
Cook healthy meal for me and thekids and my husband.
And then, but just really needsomething to lift me up, to make
me special, make the dayspecial, make, give myself
meaning.
So, yeah, enter wine and thenrepeat that cycle.
So it was getting into a littlecycle that I wasn't enjoying and
wasn't liking.
but it wasn't until I startedhaving things happen like, my
(26:03):
daughter started texting me alot when I was out when you're
coming home, mummy.
Like they were worried for mysafety.
This is like a, I think from theage of my daughter being nine or
ten, she just didn't like it.
Didn't like, didn't want to giveme a good night cuddle probably.
Didn't like the smell of me.
And I started, that startedreally impacting me as well.
So that combined with the sortof anxiety and then I got a
(26:27):
serious health condition aswell.
And I just thought, right, I'mSomething's got to give.
And let's not forget, I also hadthe moment with a bunch of
friends one night out where, Ican't really remember what
happened.
I'm guessing I must have saidsomething hurtful.
I know I said something hurtful.
In fact, I said somethinghurtful.
(26:47):
Something I would never say tosomebody in the cold light of
day.
Something I'm not proud of.
I wish I knew what it wasbecause I actually don't even
know what it was, but I knowdeep in myself that it would
have been something.
that they did not want to hearor didn't need to hear.
And that friend was kind enoughto tell me the next day that she
didn't want to be around meanymore if I was going to be
(27:09):
drinking.
And that was it.
That was like that sinkingfeeling in my whole body,
knowing that something had tochange because I couldn't live a
life where I was feeling ashamedof myself at home and ashamed of
myself socially.
And it was affecting my health.
So it's kind of, it sort ofsnowballed into this whole big
thing of, who am I now?
(27:30):
What is this?
Is this who I am?
And then I started going throughthe process of, unraveling.
And I will say, the first time Icame across the alcohol
experiment, I knew what wouldhappen at the end of that book.
And I knew it meant stoppingalcohol, so I couldn't read it.
So my journey was a bit slowerthan yours, Barry.
I ended up reading quite a lotof what's called Quit Lit, which
(27:51):
is books about, stoppingdrinking.
I did dry Januaries every year,like you, I spent about five
years sort of, up to the pointwhere it was a, an end of, end
of day situation where I triedhypnotherapy.
I tried three, you know,moderation.
I tried all sorts of things, butfor me, for me, for my story, I
(28:12):
think it got to the point whereI needed a good jolly look at
things and a break.
And ultimately discovering thisnaked mind.
has put me here and alcohol overthere.
And the biggest thing for me wasI realized it was not me, but
there's nothing wrong with me,but I get to be the person that
I want to be.
I get to be the person that I'mproud of every day, turn up for
(28:35):
myself every day.
And I've put alcohol over therebecause that's not something I
need to have in my life.
Now, I'm not saying that foreverybody, it's going to be the
same too much for me.
It's different to what too muchfor, for other people, you know,
might be.
But for me, the methodologiesfreed me from, freed me from a
life that I didn't want to live.
(28:56):
Yeah,
Barry Condon (28:58):
Yeah, brilliant.
I mean, it's true.
And it's, it's not that, wethink that, that, you know,
that, that no one should beallowed to drink and there are
no rules.
It's what, what for me, at leastit, it may gave me a view.
Allowed me to see that there wasan alternative.
And I, I, I know anything aboutthat.
There was quick lit or, oranything.
I just thought it's AlcoholicsAnonymous and I could never see
(29:20):
myself walking into, you know, achurch basement, and, and, and
saying I'm an alcoholic.
'cause I didn't really feel likean alcoholic.
I, I, I drank too much.
But, but it, it wasn't, youknow, it wasn't what my idea was
of an alcoholic, you know, theon a park bench drinking out of
a brown paper bag, having losteverything.
I was functioning really well.
I, I had, you know, a goodcareer.
(29:41):
I had a lovely family and amortgage and a house and, and,
and, everything going for meother than, I would just, you
know, couldn't get a grip on, onmy drinking.
And, it was, it's just such ashame looking back that, that,
That I didn't know earlier thatthere were alternatives, that
there are other ways to look atit and, and, and that it can
feel like this, you know, that,that, that, that, yeah, it's
(30:02):
amazing.
I mean your, your story is, is,is I guess similar to my,
different but similar to mine,that it's that no huge extreme,
and yet at some point you switchand you're drinking to reward
yourself, to soothe yourself,to, just to, you know, giving it
that job, and, you know, eventhat sort of part of, of, of
culture that it's, you know,that's what you do when you're
(30:24):
stressed.
That's what you do.
You know, there's the, the sortof mummy wine culture, you know,
that, you know, you deserve adrink at the end of the day and,
and kids are hard work to have adrink and, and,
Justine Clark (30:35):
It's all true.
they are hard work.
Barry Condon (30:37):
they are
Justine Clark (30:38):
weren't, but we weren't given any, the thing is,
I, I, what this naked mind hasdone, For me, as it's given me
alternatives, I feel like we're,what's that, program where Jim
Carey was living in a bubble.
Everyone's in the whole,
Barry Condon (30:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Justine Clark (30:51):
in The, TV show.
Barry Condon (30:53):
Mm.
The Truman
Justine Clark (30:55):
the, we're all in this Truman show situation
where, you know, everybody hasto be drinking alcohol in order
to celebrate, commiserate, destress, whatever.
And that you have these momentswhere you go and detox or
refresh, but by and large, we'rein the system.
that we're constantly, you know,going to the watering hole,
(31:16):
whereas, You know, theopportunity for me to step
outside of the watering holescenario, outside of the Truman
Show and look in at my lifewhere I can safely get in a car
any time of the day or night.
So if my child needs me at threein the morning, I can get in a
car and go and get her.
And I get up every morning atsix or seven.
7 and, you know, I can meditateand, but not feel like I'm half
(31:41):
in it and half there and doingit because I have to, because I
should.
It's taken a lot of the shouldsout of my life.
I can now, you know, assessthings on their merits rather
than how am I going to balancegetting through to this point
before I, it's a glass of winetime.
Barry Condon (31:59):
Yeah.
And it's, it's, it's sodifficult to, to imagine from,
from, our old, the point of viewof our old selves.
That, that, that, that, that,that, that, that having the
drink felt like the only time ofrelief, that only time of fun,
the only time of actuallyGetting to relax and feeling
okay.
(32:20):
And so you think, well, how cannot doing that be the answer?
And, and the, the, the science,that I found so powerful in, in
this naked mind, where you, yourealize that it's, it's the
aftereffect every time of adrink that's actually putting
you in that sort of frail stateof, of, of, heightened stress
and lowered mood and low,lowered, susceptibility to
(32:42):
pleasure that, that means thatyou end up needing to, to, to,
to take something to, to bringyou back up again each time.
And so that becomes more andmore, attractive when you're
feeling, When, when life doesget tough, it, it then becomes
very quickly unbearable withoutit.
Justine Clark (33:00):
Look, the truth of the matter is.
I didn't stop drinking because Ididn't like drinking.
At all.
I stopped drinking because Icouldn't bear how awful I felt
the rest of the time.
Barry Condon (33:13):
Yeah.
And, and it's amazing how muchwe put up with, when you think
of what, you know, the, evenfrom the beginning, you know,
the hangovers, the throwing up,the, the, the, well, what we
don't realize is that it, youknow, when you think you've got
over your hangover after acouple of days, You're, you're
still actually, your body'sstill there preparing for the
next one because it thinks, Oh,well, I don't want to go through
(33:34):
that again.
I'm prepared.
And so it heightens its, itsstress levels so that you don't
get sedated too quickly and itheightens or it shuts down the,
the receptors for, for pleasure.
So it doesn't get overstimulatedand, and cause it likes, it
likes everything in balance and.
And alcohol just sort of throwsa grenade into your
neurochemistry and, and, and,and shakes everything all the
(33:55):
wrong way.
And, but yeah, we, we take thatas normal, that sort of, you
know, the, Oh, this is whatgrown up life is, you know, life
is, you know, mundane and, and,and stressful.
And, you know, we have to waitfor the weekend until we can
have a few drinks to have fun.
And that's what we're.
That's what everyone, you know,is, is led to believe and, and,
(34:17):
and experiences when you, whenyou're a regular drinker.
Justine Clark (34:20):
And I think the reason that I want to be a coach
is because I want to reach outto the people who are frightened
for themselves of admitting thatthey have a problem.
Because they don't realise thatthey don't have a problem, it's
alcohol that's the problem.
But I want to be there for themto be able to, say, look, my
(34:41):
story is not dissimilar toyours, I'm sure.
And there is another way and,and not only is there another
way, but, but it's, it's easyand it's liberating.
So, that's why we're heretelling our story.
Barry Condon (34:53):
100%, 100%, yeah, really well said.
Shall we, shall we wrap up?
Justine Clark (35:00):
Yeah, that's good.
Barry Condon (35:01):
And, we'll be back, in a, with a new episode,
very, very soon.
Justine Clark (35:05):
Lovely to speak with you always, Barry.
Barry Condon (35:07):
Yep, yep, see you soon.
Justine Clark (35:09):
Bye! Mhm.
Barry Condon (35:10):
Bye.
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