November 15, 2024 • 32 mins
Jose and Laurel talk about their most difficult hurdle in creating---marketing! If you've ever poured your heart into a project, then released it into the world to the sound of crickets, you know our pain. So much "how to launch" advice assumes you've already cultivated an audience of hundreds (or thousands), but how do you get them? We also discuss why our VR videos take so long to make. (And if you're wondering why we keep switching between saying we have a team of four vs. five, it's because there are four of us creating new content. Our fifth team member helps us upload our finished content and does research for us, both of which we appreciate very much!)
Join us on our journey!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey Laurel, I don't feel like working today. Then let's talk. Alright so welcome
(00:09):
everyone to our episode one of our podcast which I think it's probably
going to be called I don't feel like working today. Always true. This is Jose
and right in front of me is Laurel. How you guys doing? Alright so this is you
(00:32):
know you guys are figuring it out with us you know because we are two creative
people. We're married and we've been working on our own animation studio for
a little while and in addition to that Laurel is also a writer and she's
working on some novels. I used to want to write novels too so that's another
(00:55):
long story for another time but right now I've been focusing more on movies
and Laurel's been helping. Actually we've been doing a lot of that together
and we wear all the hats. In our animation studio we actually have two
more people that are or three more people that are helping us. Yes because
(01:18):
there's a couple of hats that were just too many hats. Yes let's talk and today
we have two topics Laurel is going to talk about marketing a little bit. We're
gonna discuss it and I am going to be speaking about the reality of the fact
(01:40):
that sometimes you spend more time fixing things than actually doing things
and I'll explain what that is after we talk about marketing. Well yeah I'm sure
many creative people have had this experience but our current endeavors are
(02:03):
not our first foray into trying to put something creative out into the world.
Yes and let me frame this as we are still trying to figure things out so
this is you know think of this podcast not necessarily as this is how to do
(02:25):
something but more like we are trying to figure it out and you can you know feel
our pain and try to figure it out with us you know so let's try to figure
things out together. You know unless you're listening to this about three
years from now and maybe we've already made it and then there's an episode but
(02:48):
although you better listen to all the episodes because for all you know this
isn't how we did it it's later. So Laurel one thing and I as soon as you said you
know this happens to a lot of us or this happens to us I started feeling the pain
(03:09):
and I and I think I know what you're talking about but maybe you can
elaborate like what usually happens when we finish something you know. Yeah I mean
we've had it a couple of times we've each finished books before we've
finished a full-length live-action movie before and you know before that we had a
(03:35):
our own business creating add-ons for a programming language and you create
something and you're so excited about it and you feel so good about what you've
done you've put in the work and you've done the homework and you and you put
it out there and there's just crickets. Yes yes this is usually what happens
(03:59):
like we spend a lot of time I don't know if even it's getting our hopes up or what
but it's like we are working we are so focused on the actual project and we are
like you know let's say it's our live-action we have completed a feature
film a live-action right now we're doing an animation for VR Laurel has written
(04:25):
three novels that are out in the world and we are so focused on on that that
is and then we say okay we're gonna release this thing into the world and
out it comes and you know we try our best to do social media and you know
(04:50):
whatever but it's like nothing you know. It's it's interesting because this last
time we were like okay we we need to figure out what we're doing and so I
actually am in business school now I'm part of why I'm in there is because I
(05:13):
wanted to learn something about marketing and and I picked the program
that I chose at Eastern Michigan University because they have a program
that's focused on engineers not engineers on entrepreneurs and on small
businesses and they have a great digital marketing class and you know going
(05:34):
through a lot of this stuff I just realized that you know you still you
have to have that initial momentum trying to get off the starting block is
the hardest point some of the things that I learned were you know that well
the social media isn't going to turn into sales for the most part I mean a
(05:59):
little bit what it does do is it gives you a voice and a lot of the people who
will help you you know whether it's venture capitalists or people giving
loans or whatever they want to know that you have a voice and so that social
media will give you access to people with money but in terms of generating
(06:21):
sales it's people who want your newsletters weirdly it's the people who
want the text the the stuff in their inbox those are the people who are
actually more committed to your actual project okay but the problem with that
(06:42):
is how do you get them well I don't know we're working on that's that's the part
that's really hard because you know we try to post and and part of the problem
too could be that we are not good at posting regularly at any of these would
(07:04):
that be fair to say I mean no that is completely for disand some of it has to
do with the type of content we do that it's we can't put out these animations
weekly right let's let's let's back up a little bit and give an example so you
know Laura and I sometimes say yes you know we know that in order to build an
(07:27):
audience in on YouTube for example we have to have content regularly and we
also know that content such as animation on YouTube is really hard to begin with
because I feel like a lot of people who go to YouTube go to for you how-to
videos gaming videos product reviews that kind of thing is really good in
(07:55):
fact I've heard of youtubers who are like tired you know get tired after a few
years of doing the product reviews and try to branch out and do something else
and sooner or later they seem to come back to to product reviews because hey
that's it that's why people go to YouTube so it's hard to begin with to
(08:17):
say okay we're gonna do an animation animation content but let's let's back
up and say you know we go and say okay let's try to make a short animation
every week we're gonna release in the short animation every week well just to
spoiler alert the first one took us three weeks and it's not like this is
(08:43):
the first animation we try to make we have been trying to make animations for
two years already you know this is two and a half years that we have been
working on the process of making animations trying to make it more
efficient but with you know there's there's four people in our team and
(09:05):
trying to get an animation there's a reason that when you go watch a Disney
movie the credits take nearly half as long as the show because it takes a lot
of people to do a good animation and even throwing something out fast knowing
that it's not gonna be perfect you know it's it's hard to get a one-minute
(09:28):
animation done in three weeks it's it's hard to do that and because we're also
trying to you know launch an actual product we can't spend all of our time
doing that content right besides day jobs and family and everything else
right and you know and this is one of the reasons for this podcast that
(09:50):
hopefully we're not the only ones in this in the same situation if you are in
the same situation we'd love to connect with you and talk about these things
because yeah you know you're trying your best to to produce content so that
people will more people will follow you with the idea that eventually when you
(10:11):
release something big like a novel or you know a longer movie or whatever
people will actually watch it you know right and so taking back the you know
talking about our short movie first of all let's clarify that we're not just
doing animation so part of the complicated part is that we're trying to
do VR animation and so the idea is that when you put on like what when we
(10:38):
release something to YouTube you can actually look around by moving your
device and seeing the animation from any angle that you choose and honestly
that's one of the reasons that even though we know YouTube most people
don't go to it for the animations it is one of the few platforms that lets you
(11:04):
do 3d 360 virtual reality animation that's right and even like if we wanted
to make tik-tok videos or anything else you can't right now go around with your
phone and and look around in 360 3d on tik-tok you know or even Instagram I
(11:25):
tried uploading our video to Instagram it doesn't do that you know so Facebook
does it to some extent but not as easily as YouTube YouTube is really the main
platform that supports this functionality so we have the video part
and the audio part and I think this goes a little bit into my topic but you know
(11:49):
you have to figure out first of all the technical aspects of it right because
you know maybe you can tell them a little bit about like how we record the
thing to begin with like let's forget even the process of us recording the
animation which is another big topic but now we want to output this animation as
(12:12):
a 360 video yeah actually I think you do more but the unreal camera yeah oh with
the cameras yeah I thought you're talking about the sound but yeah it's
both right you have to so unreal if you're familiar with it at all as a game
(12:34):
engine and so it's it's a 3d environment animated environment so in one sense
that's easy you just create your 3d characters or in our case we either
purchase them or are one of the people on our team is an artist because that is
one of the things neither of us can do and and the and our other team member
(12:58):
is a specialist in unreal engine and so we put our characters in there and we
animate them and and we use it's a process we use iClone to kind of get it
started and then we move it to unreal engine and and then you want to output
(13:19):
it so in unreal engine it is a 3d environment that your characters in but
trying to output it as a 3d 360 video is hard so we've tried a couple of
different plugins and the one we're using now does pretty well but it's this
(13:39):
process where you have to find the plugins and then you have to find the
settings that work best for the plug-in and if there's anything that you figure
out when you're when you're trying to do these VR videos is resolution it's a to
get anything worth looking at yeah it's just you need more resolution than
(13:59):
exists in the world yes so we're trying to do at least 4k per eye I think it is
it's an 8k by 8k all right the resolution and that in itself takes a
long time to render you know not only did we have to figure out how to output
this but it takes a long time to render and it renders twice and it renders
(14:25):
twice go ahead yeah because first you have to render it out of unreal engine
into basically these 3d 360 frames but then you have to pull those into we use
Premiere Pro and and then create a movie with it and render it back out as the
actual movie that you can upload into YouTube right and then in addition to
(14:50):
that we have to worry about audio and audio needs to be immersive we're
thinking that hoping that people will put on VR headsets to watch our videos
that's one possibility but it's not required that's we're trying to make it
so that you can do either or you know like and so but if you do put on the
(15:15):
headset there in that world through YouTube you're still getting what it's
called ambisonic sound so being able to identify the direction where the sound
is coming from is important and that's another topic for another thing because
we're still trying to figure that out yeah there's it's interesting because
(15:39):
there's processes for doing it live and there's processes for doing it digitally
and none of them are perfect right and so to summarize we write we have to
write a script we have to perform the characters we have to record you know
and and there's a whole thing for that and that takes at least and we're
talking about maybe a one to two minute animation you know there is motion
(16:05):
capture there's facial capture there's all that stuff that's just to record it
then there is the transferring into the unreal engine then there is the putting
together of the sequence in unreal engine then there's the outputting of
the things from unreal engine into stills that get combined and premiere
(16:26):
there's the recording of the sound that gets translated into a 5.1 surround
sound mix and then turn into an ambisonic yeah no right it's 7.14
because we also need anyway yeah and there is all that stuff and by then it's
been three weeks right yeah by then it's been three weeks and and we're talking
(16:50):
about for you know a less than one minute video and not only that but then
there is the oh but hold on now I don't really quite like the angle or the way
that we put the camera in this animation because people are not gonna be able to
see the phases that well so we have to work on that yeah it's it has
(17:12):
interesting complications that doing live movies didn't have for instance you
can't just look at it on your screen and say oh yes I framed that shot well
because it just they don't update fast enough for you to really watch it and
(17:33):
get a feel for it on your computer you have to wait through you get to the
whole process and stick it on your headset or on your phone or your tablet
and once it's processed and and it takes a long time for YouTube to get it up to
a resolution you know because even when it first shows up on YouTube it's there
in SD which for yeah it looks like awful and and then you have to wait for it to
(17:59):
get to at least the 4k before you can even tell if it's gonna work and at that
point you're like oh you know what we're so far away yeah you can't see the
character well enough or we need more lighting in this area and then you have
your back at scratch and you've lost two days just seeing if that one worked and
(18:23):
the bottom line too is you know you've spent three weeks and then you worry
about the thumbnails the title all that stuff on YouTube and then you release
the video and this is what we're talking about nobody sees it nobody nobody
sees it because you're starting out and you know I think right now as of this
(18:45):
podcast which I guess what's today September 19th we say September 19th as
of September 19th 2024 our users our subscribers on our animation channel are
83 or something like that and so you do your best to go okay well I'm going to
(19:06):
you know part of you says I am NOT gonna let this video die I will do whatever
yes so that it could people can see it and you know you message all your
friends you text you know you put stuff on on Facebook where we have a few more
friends than our subscribers we family we you know our people are also promoting
(19:32):
the video and still you know you have almost you know five people see the
video or whatever you'll get like a hundred people saying congratulations
and that's great and you'll get three more subscribers right you have the the
likes on Facebook you know which people sometimes just hit like and then later
(19:59):
on you see them in real life and ask them hey how'd you like that video and
they're like what what video you know but you hit like I saw you and you know
and it's not like we don't do that either sometimes you read something from
a friend and you just want them to know that hey you know that's great
congratulations but you don't have time or interest in whatever it is they're
(20:25):
doing even though you know you care about them so yeah so for the videos we
are boosting them as they go out and that has been more effective because the
algorithms do a better job of finding people interested in our content than
(20:46):
our just general friend group so let me ask you something and this is we haven't
figured this out yet but we are we do this and and we can go through the
process of your novel as well all right which is a huge amount of work and you
know we might have a whole podcast on that but are we sometimes hurting
(21:16):
ourselves by saying we're not gonna market things that are not finished like
are we you know because I think about like Disney for example and I think
Disney used to have a better marketing than they do now you know and maybe it's
just I'm not aware of you know what they're doing now and stuff like that
(21:41):
but it used to feel like yeah it was ubiquitous I mean if Disney was coming
out with a movie which they were every year you started hearing about it the
year before yes I totally agree with that you started hearing the year before
and there would be like sometimes just a still with the date and you know
(22:03):
coming whatever there would be like a short little thing there would be
interviews with the talent they had hired you know I mean they'd start doing
trailers so early that half the time the stuff in the trailers wouldn't end up
yeah would even be part of the movie and you thought okay by the time and you
(22:24):
know they were I remember when Toy Story 4 was coming out people were talking
about how nice Keanu Reeves was as a person right and I realized oh my gosh
(22:45):
you know they're talking about Keanu because he's in the movie you know and
and Disney you know saw that one of their great assets for their movie was
they happened to have hired this actor who is one of the nicest people on earth
right and so they started promoting that so people would think oh Keanu's great
and he's in this movie I felt they were such geniuses in marketing that people
(23:09):
were talking at work you know about how nice of an actor Keanu was not even in
relation to him being in Toy Story 4 it's like he was like some type of you
know Jedi mind tricks marketing stuff that we were like oh yeah oh and by the
way oh that's right he happens to be in Toy Story 4 that seems like a cool movie
(23:33):
I should go see that we're talking about people that don't even have kids or
watch animation or anything like that I would hear them at work talking about
you know oh yeah you know I'll probably go see Toy Story 4 and it was it's just
incredible they are like they were such a powerful marketing machine
(23:58):
you're right and that may be you know maybe they're trying to do their own
but but but I feel like Laura and I are so focused and we love the actual
projects that we're working on that you know we just don't have the art of
(24:20):
saying okay well if we're gonna release this novel next year we have to start
talking about it right now like and I don't know how you do that like yeah and
I think you know there's a little bit of a catch-22 because you need content
(24:42):
first in order to promote content but you have to start promoting your content
early before it's available in order to build up enough interest at launch to
catch the interest of the algorithms and really have a catch-on and so you know
this multi-year build-up is I think an unavoidable part of the process but we
(25:09):
need to find ways to short-circuit or find a shortcut because we don't want to
be you know 107 years old by the time everything catches on do you feel too
like there is a little bit of I think they call it imposter syndrome or
(25:35):
something where where you feel like you know let's say we're gonna make an
animated movie and you know our animated movie let's say we did the marketing
like you know Disney in the back of our minds we're thinking yeah but this is
only a two-minute movie and so if I spend you know six months doing the the
(26:01):
marketing of Disney and it comes out people are not going they're gonna be
like oh this is six hours of promotion over the past six months for a movie
that took me two minutes to watch and you know it's not Toy Story 4 you know
like you know as good as we want our animations to be we're not gonna be
(26:26):
starting out at that level we don't have the team that they had starting out but
I wonder if that happens with everything including you know your novels and stuff
like that where you're like well you know we could like say coming soon blah
blah blah and all the posters and all the I think there is something to that
(26:47):
but there is also you know people have a healthy skepticism there are so many
people who are much better at hype than they are at content that you know you
don't want to be the kid with the $600 shoes who can't play basketball and so I
(27:09):
you know that is part of the process too and so actually one of the reasons we're
doing this podcast is because it is something that we can put out on a
regular basis that isn't going to prevent us from spending time on making
our content that gives people an idea of who we are and you know what sort of
(27:31):
things that we're making before they see it and and that way if we're only
putting out a new video once a month then that's okay because if they have any
interest in it they can still hear from us you know every day and I feel like
(27:54):
there's a lot of things that as creative people who are trying to make a business
out of it we have to deal with that hopefully other people you know face
the same things and maybe if we build a community we can all try to figure this
out together because you know they are people who just do it for fun but there
(28:20):
are people like us who are actually trying to make a business out of it who
are trying to like you know wouldn't it be great you know it's funny because I
hear people well if they were my you know sometimes people say if it were my
job I don't think I would enjoy it anymore and we're thinking the opposite
like are you kidding me if this were my job I would be like so happy because
(28:42):
this is what I love to do I love to you know entertain people create people you
know things tell stories and all that stuff so if we got a chance to do it
full-time that would be wonderful that's what we're trying to do so and I think
actually your idea is valid because one of the things that I I found one of the
(29:10):
authors that I love right now is you know I mean she has some great books and
she's definitely had enough success that it's her day job now but she's not like
a big name you know in a big publishing house she's indie in a small publishing
house and where she promotes is through a collection of indie authors where they
(29:39):
they share so basically and I'm still looking into it but it what it looks
like is you know you find other authors who have books that are like yours so
that you're the people who like your books will like theirs and vice versa
and you say okay well let's send out a promotion to all of the people in our
(30:03):
email lists and so you know maybe I've got okay well right now I've got like
five but let's say let's say I have 20 and and let's say someone else has you
know 25 and someone else has 80 well I mean already you know between the three
of you it's increasing your list and it's increasing the list of the most
(30:25):
likely people to do it because it is people who have said I am interested in
buying you know science fiction ebooks by indie authors I have to say that you
know I used to belong to a writers group a long time ago it was an awesome group
(30:47):
but I'm not trying to write anymore so I'm not part of that group I'm doing you
know we're doing movie stuff now but out of all my friends all the people I've
been involved with they are by far the most supportive people with any creative
endeavor that we have and I think it's because they are on the same you know
(31:08):
they're trying to do the same thing like people who are trying to do the same
thing in this market usually are the most supportive you know about you know
encouraging you to do it sharing stuff that you've done with other people all
that stuff so I think you know if if nothing else if we could build some
(31:31):
community and make some friends you know out of the podcast I think that would be
wonderful and we would love to you know connect and and see what you know
support each other and all that so yeah I agree I think the people that we met
also doing you know like the 48-hour film projects when we're doing that oh
(31:53):
yeah those people also you know you root for each other because you know the
struggles that you all have trying to create and and get your creations out
into the world I know so let's you know clarify that even though we've been
trying to seriously do animations in VR for two and a half maybe three years we
(32:18):
have actually been at trying to create things for a long long time probably
fair to say around 30 years of us trying to yeah but you were writing short
stories that were getting into online publications before our daughter was
(32:40):
born so that was 30 years ago yeah wow all right well I think we're gonna cut
it here because it's been over half hour and so we can keep it in around half
hour so and thanks for tuning in and see you next time all right
Hey Laurel, I don't feel like working today. Then let's talk. Alright so welcome
(00:09):
everyone to our episode one of our podcast which I think it's probably
going to be called I don't feel like working today. Always true. This is Jose
and right in front of me is Laurel. How you guys doing? Alright so this is you
(00:32):
know you guys are figuring it out with us you know because we are two creative
people. We're married and we've been working on our own animation studio for
a little while and in addition to that Laurel is also a writer and she's
working on some novels. I used to want to write novels too so that's another
(00:55):
long story for another time but right now I've been focusing more on movies
and Laurel's been helping. Actually we've been doing a lot of that together
and we wear all the hats. In our animation studio we actually have two
more people that are or three more people that are helping us. Yes because
(01:18):
there's a couple of hats that were just too many hats. Yes let's talk and today
we have two topics Laurel is going to talk about marketing a little bit. We're
gonna discuss it and I am going to be speaking about the reality of the fact
(01:40):
that sometimes you spend more time fixing things than actually doing things
and I'll explain what that is after we talk about marketing. Well yeah I'm sure
many creative people have had this experience but our current endeavors are
(02:03):
not our first foray into trying to put something creative out into the world.
Yes and let me frame this as we are still trying to figure things out so
this is you know think of this podcast not necessarily as this is how to do
(02:25):
something but more like we are trying to figure it out and you can you know feel
our pain and try to figure it out with us you know so let's try to figure
things out together. You know unless you're listening to this about three
years from now and maybe we've already made it and then there's an episode but
(02:48):
although you better listen to all the episodes because for all you know this
isn't how we did it it's later. So Laurel one thing and I as soon as you said you
know this happens to a lot of us or this happens to us I started feeling the pain
(03:09):
and I and I think I know what you're talking about but maybe you can
elaborate like what usually happens when we finish something you know. Yeah I mean
we've had it a couple of times we've each finished books before we've
finished a full-length live-action movie before and you know before that we had a
(03:35):
our own business creating add-ons for a programming language and you create
something and you're so excited about it and you feel so good about what you've
done you've put in the work and you've done the homework and you and you put
it out there and there's just crickets. Yes yes this is usually what happens
(03:59):
like we spend a lot of time I don't know if even it's getting our hopes up or what
but it's like we are working we are so focused on the actual project and we are
like you know let's say it's our live-action we have completed a feature
film a live-action right now we're doing an animation for VR Laurel has written
(04:25):
three novels that are out in the world and we are so focused on on that that
is and then we say okay we're gonna release this thing into the world and
out it comes and you know we try our best to do social media and you know
(04:50):
whatever but it's like nothing you know. It's it's interesting because this last
time we were like okay we we need to figure out what we're doing and so I
actually am in business school now I'm part of why I'm in there is because I
(05:13):
wanted to learn something about marketing and and I picked the program
that I chose at Eastern Michigan University because they have a program
that's focused on engineers not engineers on entrepreneurs and on small
businesses and they have a great digital marketing class and you know going
(05:34):
through a lot of this stuff I just realized that you know you still you
have to have that initial momentum trying to get off the starting block is
the hardest point some of the things that I learned were you know that well
the social media isn't going to turn into sales for the most part I mean a
(05:59):
little bit what it does do is it gives you a voice and a lot of the people who
will help you you know whether it's venture capitalists or people giving
loans or whatever they want to know that you have a voice and so that social
media will give you access to people with money but in terms of generating
(06:21):
sales it's people who want your newsletters weirdly it's the people who
want the text the the stuff in their inbox those are the people who are
actually more committed to your actual project okay but the problem with that
(06:42):
is how do you get them well I don't know we're working on that's that's the part
that's really hard because you know we try to post and and part of the problem
too could be that we are not good at posting regularly at any of these would
(07:04):
that be fair to say I mean no that is completely for disand some of it has to
do with the type of content we do that it's we can't put out these animations
weekly right let's let's let's back up a little bit and give an example so you
know Laura and I sometimes say yes you know we know that in order to build an
(07:27):
audience in on YouTube for example we have to have content regularly and we
also know that content such as animation on YouTube is really hard to begin with
because I feel like a lot of people who go to YouTube go to for you how-to
videos gaming videos product reviews that kind of thing is really good in
(07:55):
fact I've heard of youtubers who are like tired you know get tired after a few
years of doing the product reviews and try to branch out and do something else
and sooner or later they seem to come back to to product reviews because hey
that's it that's why people go to YouTube so it's hard to begin with to
(08:17):
say okay we're gonna do an animation animation content but let's let's back
up and say you know we go and say okay let's try to make a short animation
every week we're gonna release in the short animation every week well just to
spoiler alert the first one took us three weeks and it's not like this is
(08:43):
the first animation we try to make we have been trying to make animations for
two years already you know this is two and a half years that we have been
working on the process of making animations trying to make it more
efficient but with you know there's there's four people in our team and
(09:05):
trying to get an animation there's a reason that when you go watch a Disney
movie the credits take nearly half as long as the show because it takes a lot
of people to do a good animation and even throwing something out fast knowing
that it's not gonna be perfect you know it's it's hard to get a one-minute
(09:28):
animation done in three weeks it's it's hard to do that and because we're also
trying to you know launch an actual product we can't spend all of our time
doing that content right besides day jobs and family and everything else
right and you know and this is one of the reasons for this podcast that
(09:50):
hopefully we're not the only ones in this in the same situation if you are in
the same situation we'd love to connect with you and talk about these things
because yeah you know you're trying your best to to produce content so that
people will more people will follow you with the idea that eventually when you
(10:11):
release something big like a novel or you know a longer movie or whatever
people will actually watch it you know right and so taking back the you know
talking about our short movie first of all let's clarify that we're not just
doing animation so part of the complicated part is that we're trying to
do VR animation and so the idea is that when you put on like what when we
(10:38):
release something to YouTube you can actually look around by moving your
device and seeing the animation from any angle that you choose and honestly
that's one of the reasons that even though we know YouTube most people
don't go to it for the animations it is one of the few platforms that lets you
(11:04):
do 3d 360 virtual reality animation that's right and even like if we wanted
to make tik-tok videos or anything else you can't right now go around with your
phone and and look around in 360 3d on tik-tok you know or even Instagram I
(11:25):
tried uploading our video to Instagram it doesn't do that you know so Facebook
does it to some extent but not as easily as YouTube YouTube is really the main
platform that supports this functionality so we have the video part
and the audio part and I think this goes a little bit into my topic but you know
(11:49):
you have to figure out first of all the technical aspects of it right because
you know maybe you can tell them a little bit about like how we record the
thing to begin with like let's forget even the process of us recording the
animation which is another big topic but now we want to output this animation as
(12:12):
a 360 video yeah actually I think you do more but the unreal camera yeah oh with
the cameras yeah I thought you're talking about the sound but yeah it's
both right you have to so unreal if you're familiar with it at all as a game
(12:34):
engine and so it's it's a 3d environment animated environment so in one sense
that's easy you just create your 3d characters or in our case we either
purchase them or are one of the people on our team is an artist because that is
one of the things neither of us can do and and the and our other team member
(12:58):
is a specialist in unreal engine and so we put our characters in there and we
animate them and and we use it's a process we use iClone to kind of get it
started and then we move it to unreal engine and and then you want to output
(13:19):
it so in unreal engine it is a 3d environment that your characters in but
trying to output it as a 3d 360 video is hard so we've tried a couple of
different plugins and the one we're using now does pretty well but it's this
(13:39):
process where you have to find the plugins and then you have to find the
settings that work best for the plug-in and if there's anything that you figure
out when you're when you're trying to do these VR videos is resolution it's a to
get anything worth looking at yeah it's just you need more resolution than
(13:59):
exists in the world yes so we're trying to do at least 4k per eye I think it is
it's an 8k by 8k all right the resolution and that in itself takes a
long time to render you know not only did we have to figure out how to output
this but it takes a long time to render and it renders twice and it renders
(14:25):
twice go ahead yeah because first you have to render it out of unreal engine
into basically these 3d 360 frames but then you have to pull those into we use
Premiere Pro and and then create a movie with it and render it back out as the
actual movie that you can upload into YouTube right and then in addition to
(14:50):
that we have to worry about audio and audio needs to be immersive we're
thinking that hoping that people will put on VR headsets to watch our videos
that's one possibility but it's not required that's we're trying to make it
so that you can do either or you know like and so but if you do put on the
(15:15):
headset there in that world through YouTube you're still getting what it's
called ambisonic sound so being able to identify the direction where the sound
is coming from is important and that's another topic for another thing because
we're still trying to figure that out yeah there's it's interesting because
(15:39):
there's processes for doing it live and there's processes for doing it digitally
and none of them are perfect right and so to summarize we write we have to
write a script we have to perform the characters we have to record you know
and and there's a whole thing for that and that takes at least and we're
talking about maybe a one to two minute animation you know there is motion
(16:05):
capture there's facial capture there's all that stuff that's just to record it
then there is the transferring into the unreal engine then there is the putting
together of the sequence in unreal engine then there's the outputting of
the things from unreal engine into stills that get combined and premiere
(16:26):
there's the recording of the sound that gets translated into a 5.1 surround
sound mix and then turn into an ambisonic yeah no right it's 7.14
because we also need anyway yeah and there is all that stuff and by then it's
been three weeks right yeah by then it's been three weeks and and we're talking
(16:50):
about for you know a less than one minute video and not only that but then
there is the oh but hold on now I don't really quite like the angle or the way
that we put the camera in this animation because people are not gonna be able to
see the phases that well so we have to work on that yeah it's it has
(17:12):
interesting complications that doing live movies didn't have for instance you
can't just look at it on your screen and say oh yes I framed that shot well
because it just they don't update fast enough for you to really watch it and
(17:33):
get a feel for it on your computer you have to wait through you get to the
whole process and stick it on your headset or on your phone or your tablet
and once it's processed and and it takes a long time for YouTube to get it up to
a resolution you know because even when it first shows up on YouTube it's there
in SD which for yeah it looks like awful and and then you have to wait for it to
(17:59):
get to at least the 4k before you can even tell if it's gonna work and at that
point you're like oh you know what we're so far away yeah you can't see the
character well enough or we need more lighting in this area and then you have
your back at scratch and you've lost two days just seeing if that one worked and
(18:23):
the bottom line too is you know you've spent three weeks and then you worry
about the thumbnails the title all that stuff on YouTube and then you release
the video and this is what we're talking about nobody sees it nobody nobody
sees it because you're starting out and you know I think right now as of this
(18:45):
podcast which I guess what's today September 19th we say September 19th as
of September 19th 2024 our users our subscribers on our animation channel are
83 or something like that and so you do your best to go okay well I'm going to
(19:06):
you know part of you says I am NOT gonna let this video die I will do whatever
yes so that it could people can see it and you know you message all your
friends you text you know you put stuff on on Facebook where we have a few more
friends than our subscribers we family we you know our people are also promoting
(19:32):
the video and still you know you have almost you know five people see the
video or whatever you'll get like a hundred people saying congratulations
and that's great and you'll get three more subscribers right you have the the
likes on Facebook you know which people sometimes just hit like and then later
(19:59):
on you see them in real life and ask them hey how'd you like that video and
they're like what what video you know but you hit like I saw you and you know
and it's not like we don't do that either sometimes you read something from
a friend and you just want them to know that hey you know that's great
congratulations but you don't have time or interest in whatever it is they're
(20:25):
doing even though you know you care about them so yeah so for the videos we
are boosting them as they go out and that has been more effective because the
algorithms do a better job of finding people interested in our content than
(20:46):
our just general friend group so let me ask you something and this is we haven't
figured this out yet but we are we do this and and we can go through the
process of your novel as well all right which is a huge amount of work and you
know we might have a whole podcast on that but are we sometimes hurting
(21:16):
ourselves by saying we're not gonna market things that are not finished like
are we you know because I think about like Disney for example and I think
Disney used to have a better marketing than they do now you know and maybe it's
just I'm not aware of you know what they're doing now and stuff like that
(21:41):
but it used to feel like yeah it was ubiquitous I mean if Disney was coming
out with a movie which they were every year you started hearing about it the
year before yes I totally agree with that you started hearing the year before
and there would be like sometimes just a still with the date and you know
(22:03):
coming whatever there would be like a short little thing there would be
interviews with the talent they had hired you know I mean they'd start doing
trailers so early that half the time the stuff in the trailers wouldn't end up
yeah would even be part of the movie and you thought okay by the time and you
(22:24):
know they were I remember when Toy Story 4 was coming out people were talking
about how nice Keanu Reeves was as a person right and I realized oh my gosh
(22:45):
you know they're talking about Keanu because he's in the movie you know and
and Disney you know saw that one of their great assets for their movie was
they happened to have hired this actor who is one of the nicest people on earth
right and so they started promoting that so people would think oh Keanu's great
and he's in this movie I felt they were such geniuses in marketing that people
(23:09):
were talking at work you know about how nice of an actor Keanu was not even in
relation to him being in Toy Story 4 it's like he was like some type of you
know Jedi mind tricks marketing stuff that we were like oh yeah oh and by the
way oh that's right he happens to be in Toy Story 4 that seems like a cool movie
(23:33):
I should go see that we're talking about people that don't even have kids or
watch animation or anything like that I would hear them at work talking about
you know oh yeah you know I'll probably go see Toy Story 4 and it was it's just
incredible they are like they were such a powerful marketing machine
(23:58):
you're right and that may be you know maybe they're trying to do their own
but but but I feel like Laura and I are so focused and we love the actual
projects that we're working on that you know we just don't have the art of
(24:20):
saying okay well if we're gonna release this novel next year we have to start
talking about it right now like and I don't know how you do that like yeah and
I think you know there's a little bit of a catch-22 because you need content
(24:42):
first in order to promote content but you have to start promoting your content
early before it's available in order to build up enough interest at launch to
catch the interest of the algorithms and really have a catch-on and so you know
this multi-year build-up is I think an unavoidable part of the process but we
(25:09):
need to find ways to short-circuit or find a shortcut because we don't want to
be you know 107 years old by the time everything catches on do you feel too
like there is a little bit of I think they call it imposter syndrome or
(25:35):
something where where you feel like you know let's say we're gonna make an
animated movie and you know our animated movie let's say we did the marketing
like you know Disney in the back of our minds we're thinking yeah but this is
only a two-minute movie and so if I spend you know six months doing the the
(26:01):
marketing of Disney and it comes out people are not going they're gonna be
like oh this is six hours of promotion over the past six months for a movie
that took me two minutes to watch and you know it's not Toy Story 4 you know
like you know as good as we want our animations to be we're not gonna be
(26:26):
starting out at that level we don't have the team that they had starting out but
I wonder if that happens with everything including you know your novels and stuff
like that where you're like well you know we could like say coming soon blah
blah blah and all the posters and all the I think there is something to that
(26:47):
but there is also you know people have a healthy skepticism there are so many
people who are much better at hype than they are at content that you know you
don't want to be the kid with the $600 shoes who can't play basketball and so I
(27:09):
you know that is part of the process too and so actually one of the reasons we're
doing this podcast is because it is something that we can put out on a
regular basis that isn't going to prevent us from spending time on making
our content that gives people an idea of who we are and you know what sort of
(27:31):
things that we're making before they see it and and that way if we're only
putting out a new video once a month then that's okay because if they have any
interest in it they can still hear from us you know every day and I feel like
(27:54):
there's a lot of things that as creative people who are trying to make a business
out of it we have to deal with that hopefully other people you know face
the same things and maybe if we build a community we can all try to figure this
out together because you know they are people who just do it for fun but there
(28:20):
are people like us who are actually trying to make a business out of it who
are trying to like you know wouldn't it be great you know it's funny because I
hear people well if they were my you know sometimes people say if it were my
job I don't think I would enjoy it anymore and we're thinking the opposite
like are you kidding me if this were my job I would be like so happy because
(28:42):
this is what I love to do I love to you know entertain people create people you
know things tell stories and all that stuff so if we got a chance to do it
full-time that would be wonderful that's what we're trying to do so and I think
actually your idea is valid because one of the things that I I found one of the
(29:10):
authors that I love right now is you know I mean she has some great books and
she's definitely had enough success that it's her day job now but she's not like
a big name you know in a big publishing house she's indie in a small publishing
house and where she promotes is through a collection of indie authors where they
(29:39):
they share so basically and I'm still looking into it but it what it looks
like is you know you find other authors who have books that are like yours so
that you're the people who like your books will like theirs and vice versa
and you say okay well let's send out a promotion to all of the people in our
(30:03):
email lists and so you know maybe I've got okay well right now I've got like
five but let's say let's say I have 20 and and let's say someone else has you
know 25 and someone else has 80 well I mean already you know between the three
of you it's increasing your list and it's increasing the list of the most
(30:25):
likely people to do it because it is people who have said I am interested in
buying you know science fiction ebooks by indie authors I have to say that you
know I used to belong to a writers group a long time ago it was an awesome group
(30:47):
but I'm not trying to write anymore so I'm not part of that group I'm doing you
know we're doing movie stuff now but out of all my friends all the people I've
been involved with they are by far the most supportive people with any creative
endeavor that we have and I think it's because they are on the same you know
(31:08):
they're trying to do the same thing like people who are trying to do the same
thing in this market usually are the most supportive you know about you know
encouraging you to do it sharing stuff that you've done with other people all
that stuff so I think you know if if nothing else if we could build some
(31:31):
community and make some friends you know out of the podcast I think that would be
wonderful and we would love to you know connect and and see what you know
support each other and all that so yeah I agree I think the people that we met
also doing you know like the 48-hour film projects when we're doing that oh
(31:53):
yeah those people also you know you root for each other because you know the
struggles that you all have trying to create and and get your creations out
into the world I know so let's you know clarify that even though we've been
trying to seriously do animations in VR for two and a half maybe three years we
(32:18):
have actually been at trying to create things for a long long time probably
fair to say around 30 years of us trying to yeah but you were writing short
stories that were getting into online publications before our daughter was
(32:40):
born so that was 30 years ago yeah wow all right well I think we're gonna cut
it here because it's been over half hour and so we can keep it in around half
hour so and thanks for tuning in and see you next time all right
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