October 19, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of Be The Church Podcast, Pastor Luke Bilberry sits down with Pastor Joel Wayne and Pastor Michael Rubino to unpack what it truly means to be a spiritual leader. Together, they challenge the modern view of leadership, contrasting cultural models with the biblical call to servant leadership.
Through honest reflection, practical examples, and even moments of vulnerability, they explore how Jesus’ model of discipleship transforms our understanding of influence, calling, and equipping others. Whether you lead in your church, home, or workplace, this conversation will inspire you to lead with humility, clarity, and a heart surrendered to Christ’s mission.
What you’ll learn:
- The difference between spiritual leadership and worldly leadership
- Why servant leadership is rooted in Scripture
- How failure shapes effective leaders
- How Jesus modeled spiritual leadership with His disciples
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joel Wayne (00:00):
God has raised up specific people to be certain
(00:02):
leaders, but God has then alsoraised up everybody to influence
others. It's a great commissionto empower them.
Michael Rubino (00:08):
When you read servant leadership literature,
they do everything but quote thescripture. I mean, they're just
paraphrasing biblicalprinciples.
Joel Wayne (00:14):
I've read before and said, wait. Is that John? Or
Mark?
Michael Rubino (00:18):
Is that In one of the gospels?
Joel Wayne (00:19):
Yeah.
Luke Bilberry (00:19):
Yeah. Welcome to Be The Church podcast, where we
are passionate about helpingequip local churches to raise up
spiritual leaders. It's it'swhat we're called to do to
advance the kingdom of God, andwe're grateful that we get to be
the church with you to do ittogether because God is on the
move all across the world andhis Kingdom is coming. It is
here. It's now.
It's about Jesus. And so we'regrateful that we get to have a
conversation about spiritualleadership. And so really glad
(00:42):
to have Pastor Joel and PastorMichael Rubino back with us to
chat about something that we areall very, very passionate about.
It is what we're giving all ofour time and energy and what we
feel called to right now is toraise up spiritual leaders and
to release them to do even morethan we could have ever imagined
for the sake of the kingdom allacross the world. And so I love
Pastor Joel, why don't you helpus define what is spiritual
(01:06):
leadership?
Joel Wayne (01:07):
I think you probably need to speak of what it's not
as well, and even what we'vemade leadership. Today,
leadership is, maybe you guysdisagree, but it seems to be
this word that is elevated abovewhere it should. God gives
everybody different roles,different responsibilities in
the kingdom of God. And nowtoday, everybody wants to be a
leader, right? To me, I thinkabout when someone says, and I
(01:31):
hear frequently, everybody canbe a leader.
I get what they're saying, I do,I Everybody has influence.
Everybody does have influence.Everybody can impact somebody
else. I get But not everybody isa leader's kind of saying, you
know, I laugh at this, there'sno such thing as a dumb
question. Yes, there is.
Put that down. There's some dumbquestions. And again, I get what
(01:51):
people are saying, but God hasraised up specific people to be
certain leaders, but God hasthen also raised up everybody to
influence others. It's a greatcommission to empower them. And
so when you look at spiritualleadership, how are we
encouraging, teaching,equipping, embracing for others
lead others, for disciples tolead disciples, to allow them to
(02:16):
emulate the teachings andpractices of Jesus Christ?
Yeah, Yeah. That, I mean, thatplays with discipleship, so is
spiritual leader discipleship.It is. It is. It is.
Is. What I say is spiritualleadership is actually born out
of, birth out of, it comes fromhealthy discipleship.
Luke Bilberry (02:35):
Right. You look at Jesus' model, and maybe,
Michael, you can unpack this alittle bit, like the biblical
model that Jesus would have doneto raise up spiritual leaders,
make disciples, maybe somethingfor you to kind of unpack for
us, but that's what he does, ishe, there's the disciples, but
we hear about a few differentones that he is called to
specific roles with even in hisgroup of disciples. Right? And
so there is this level ofspiritual leadership and
(02:57):
discipleship going hand in hand,but we spiritual leaders. So why
don't you kind of unpack alittle bit more?
What are some characteristics ofspiritual leadership and how do
you see Jesus doing that?
Michael Rubino (03:06):
Yeah, you know, what's great about this topic is
that the church co opted a lotof secular mindsets regarding
leadership over the past maybethirty years, only for the
secular world and the academicworld to co opt the biblical
version of leadership. So rightnow you can't go through a
bookstore without picking uptransformational leadership,
(03:28):
change leadership, leadership.Servant leadership. And when you
read servant literature, they doeverything but quote the
scripture. I mean, they're justparaphrasing biblical
principles.
Joel Wayne (03:37):
I've read that before and so wait. Is that
John? I've read that before. OrMark. Is it
Michael Rubino (03:41):
in one of the gospels?
Joel Wayne (03:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Rubino (03:42):
And so basically, this is going to
sound overly simplified, butsometimes the most profound
things are simple. Spiritualleadership is spiritual at its
foundation. So spiritual leadersaren't self serving, they're
self sacrificial. They don'tlead from the tower, they lead
(04:04):
by example from the front. Ithink these are some of the
things we're seeing now, whereasyou had this great leader
syndrome in the church wherepastors were untouchable and you
couldn't talk to them, theydidn't, God forbid, did any
actual work.
And I think we're deconstructingthat in a beautiful way. Because
when you see Jesus lead hisdisciples, he's side by side,
(04:26):
but not everyone, not everyone,he chose 12 primarily invested
in three, doesn't mean thepastor is responsible or a
leader can lead everyone. Butthey lead by serving and
modeling and doing, not simplyteaching.
Joel Wayne (04:41):
So let me go ahead and say that's part of the
reason our understanding ofspiritual leadership is
convoluted is because we believethat pastors are to be leading
everybody in the church. And sonow we don't have the people
sitting in the church actuallycarrying the responsibility that
they have. We're outsourcing it.We're outsourcing something that
every person is called to. Andyou know, we can speak about
(05:03):
that as well.
I think part of it is definingit for your congregation because
everybody's in a different partof that journey.
Luke Bilberry (05:10):
Right,
Joel Wayne (05:10):
right. Everybody's, so I look at spiritual
leadership, and according toScripture, you're going to go,
well, you serving? Right? I wantto know, in my church, I want to
know how many people areutilizing their area of
spiritual giftedness to serve. Iwant to know that.
I know how many people serveevery Sunday. I know if people
are coming more and more intothat group, you know, how many
(05:31):
are we adding? But then we wantto know if people are giving,
and then we want to know, arethey in any type of group? Like
we start to measure it, buteverybody's in a progression of
spiritual growth. Transformationis a continual process.
That's what is someone'sprocess, growth in becoming like
(05:53):
Jesus?
Luke Bilberry (05:54):
So maybe let me kind of unpack a few things or
have you guys unpack some datathat we're getting from Barna
says that 39% of Christians arenot engaged in any form of
discipleship. So have we made amistake, the system we've built,
have we made discipleship, thisidea of come intend on a Sunday
morning? And to what degree arewe, the church leaders, the
(06:17):
spiritual leaders, needing toredefine what discipleship looks
like? If we're spiritual leadersand we're going be held
responsible to the Lord Jesusfor his disciples, for making
the disciples, what are somethings that we may need to
retool and rethink? Like you'retalking about, we're going to
measure these things, we'regoing to look at these things.
But it seems like we have acrisis of 39% of people are
(06:37):
saying, I'm not involved in anyform. These are Christians
saying, I'm not informed in thediscipleship pathway or process.
Michael Rubino (06:42):
Well, we've made it a program. Like, there it is.
Like, we've made it a program,teach this course, talk about
this for a season, then move on.There is nothing deeper than
discipleship becausediscipleship doesn't have an
I've arrived moment. It's aprocess.
As we've said, if you've doneten weeks, you're a disciple. Or
(07:03):
if you do, like we were justtalking before we started
recording about different typesof people that are involved in
discipleship. But what the oneor two things we're doing is not
the totality. Like some areserving, some are teaching, some
are learning, right? Some aregood at giving, but there's a
kind of a totality of thesethings should all be happening
simultaneously.
(07:24):
And how to measure that'sdifficult, it's messy, which is
probably why we don't focus onit.
Joel Wayne (07:28):
Many people know Andy Murray, right? So let's go
to some things that he wroteabout decades ago. He often
spoke of complete surrender. Ifwe really want to go at just a,
hey, a follower, a disciple ofJesus, a spiritual leader is
going to have complete surrenderof everything. They're fine, and
we could all preach this, right?
Their finances and their timeand their energy, the way they
(07:49):
raise their kids, but that'sstill ambiguous in many regards.
We have to start, I think moreclearly defining as a leader for
the people that I am leading,this is what I'm asking you to
do that is biblically rooted andgrounded. And I'm asking you to
do this. And that's just part ofthe process. It may not be
(08:10):
everything,
Michael Rubino (08:11):
but it's And it can't be everything, right?
Joel Wayne (08:12):
I was just telling the story here, we've got a guy
who, newer to our ministry, andhere he is, and he steps in
every Sunday, he comes out at8AM, so we have hundreds of come
to 8AM to actually free upspaces for the other services to
follow, which is wonderful. Andthen he drives one of our
shuttles up and down the streetso that we can add additional
(08:33):
vehicles and cars, and then hebreaks down all the chairs so
that our worship venues here canbe used for students later in
the evening. That's servantleadership. That's a part of it.
Don't beat that down.
Celebrate that. Yes. And thenI've got another guy, was like,
Why more involved? He goes, Whatdo you mean? Well, he's here
(08:54):
every week for worship, but he'son the fourth rendition of
walking through something I didover three years ago, which is
challenging people to walkthrough the Gospel of John with
their employees or their peopleat work.
He's on the fourth round. Wow.
Michael Rubino (09:07):
Yeah,
Joel Wayne (09:07):
that's a win. Another He's It looks different,
but that's a win. And we need todefine what the biblical win is.
Luke Bilberry (09:16):
Yeah. I want to kind of circle back to that just
a little bit as we really kindof think about this idea of
taking the wall. What does itmean for us to go over the
obstacles as we drive down inthis? But spiritual leadership,
man, there's highs and lows inthe midst of everything. And
we're thinking about, likeEphesians four eleven tells us,
it's to equip the saints.
Our job as spiritual leaders isto equip the saints, the
disciples, for the work ofministry. And we get to do that.
(09:41):
And so as we're walking thatpath forward, we're going have
some wins and we're going tohave some failures. We're going
to misstep. I think it would behelpful for us, for you guys, to
maybe even share a moment ofvulnerability at a time that you
you were trying to lead in aGodward direction.
You were trying to be earnest inthat, but even you made a
misstep because we can learnfrom our failures. I think
(10:01):
that's one of the greatestteachers we have is failure,
right? Is we look at ourmistakes and go, Oh, okay, I now
know how to not do that again.When you think about spiritual
leadership, again, what isspiritual leadership? Sometimes
it's easy to find what it's not,and we can define it by looking
at our failures and doing.
Michael Rubino (10:17):
We learn much more from our failures than our
successes. At least that's mystory. And so I think probably
my biggest failure, and there'sprobably a handful, but I'll
just pick one out for the sakeof brevity, was through a season
as a leader where someone didnot do it as good as I thought I
could do it.
Luke Bilberry (10:35):
A little pride there, sir.
Michael Rubino (10:37):
100%, that I would not release it. And what I
was doing, number 100% pride, isI'm this talented in this many
areas, which was not true. Andpart of it was being overly
protective and not being willingto slow down to bring people
with me. So part of what I wasdoing was running over people to
reach new people.
Luke Bilberry (10:56):
So you weren't bringing, you weren't especially
leading.
Michael Rubino (10:59):
Was bringing no one along with me. So if you
look behind you and there'snobody following you, you're not
leading.
Joel Wayne (11:06):
Not a leader.
Michael Rubino (11:06):
And that was one of my big moments where I
recognized that I had notbrought anyone along with me on
this journey. And while somethings were going well, it
eventually all crumbled inwardbecause I didn't have a strong
enough foundation. So that wasmy failure.
Luke Bilberry (11:23):
There's a ton to learn in there. I appreciate it.
One, thanks for sharing thatvulnerability because I think
it's to a degree, everyone has acertain leadership capacity. And
if we're trying to create a newsystem of discipleship, a
spiritual leadership, if it'sall on us, then we're living
back into that program. Right?
We're living because I'm notraising up, we're not releasing
new leaders, We're not gettingnew ideas and new inputs from
the people that God has given usthis kaleidoscopic grace to make
(11:46):
this beautiful thing in ourcongregations and in our
communities.
Michael Rubino (11:48):
Right? Jesus sent out the seventy two two by
two. I'm pretty sure he couldhave done it better.
Luke Bilberry (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Rubino (11:54):
Pretty sure like he could have went, but that I
had to model myself after himmore.
Joel Wayne (11:59):
He sent
Luke Bilberry (12:00):
those guys out and he got the report back, you
know, and they worked with him.
Michael Rubino (12:03):
And he allowed them to fail.
Luke Bilberry (12:04):
Yeah, that's good. Well, what would you say,
Pastor Joel? What are kind ofsome of those spiritual
leadership moments where you'vestumbled and you've learned a
lot from?
Joel Wayne (12:10):
I remember at First Church, it's very similar to
yours, Michael. At First Church,I'm in lead pastor. Was 29, I
think when I went as a lead andI'm going, I didn't know what
was going on. Let's just behonest, you act all cool.
Michael Rubino (12:22):
Oh yeah, but you don't know, You're terrified.
Joel Wayne (12:25):
And I had nothing, nothing was I trained in by
seminary. Right. So I go
Luke Bilberry (12:33):
You probably had a good book collection,
Joel Wayne (12:34):
I did have a nice book collection.
Michael Rubino (12:36):
Systematic theology books
Joel Wayne (12:38):
are tight.
Michael Rubino (12:38):
Yeah. But leading people is
Joel Wayne (12:40):
a And little I had a realization one day of looking
around me and go, where arethey? And it was very similar to
you. And I recognized theyweren't there because I wasn't
worth following. And in thatmoment just was, and I speak
about it quickly because itkeeps me from getting overly
(13:00):
dramatic or tearful on itbecause I wasn't leading them
well. I wasn't providing theclarity for them to feel like
that they were actually winning,not for themselves, but just to
be like Jesus.
Like showing up at church isn'ta win for me, it's not. And so
even with leading staff, I hadto change that. So leading
(13:22):
people, leading staff, leadingmy home, it caused me, I was so
grateful for that because I hadtwo kids at the time, I have
more than that now, but I go, itcaused me to parent differently.
How could I know that I was agood parent? And so all of a
sudden I started differentexpectations for my children.
(13:43):
And I started to raise themwith, you're going to be a
leader of men strong and gentle.And I started to raise them with
certain scripture that they hadto know cause I wanted it to be
engraved on their heart. Well,same with lay leadership, same
with people at the church, I hadto start defining with clarity
what the expectations were. Andby the way, I found out in that
(14:04):
moment, I won as a leader, theywon as a follower, the church
won as the bride of Christ, andso God received glory.
Luke Bilberry (14:13):
Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. One of the
things this is not a I'm gonnacatch you off guard with this
question, so I apologize forthis. One of the things I've
noticed about your leadership,Pastor Joel, is that you have a
unique ability to see beyond theexterior for the people around
you. You have this unique Ibelieve it's a gift that God has
(14:33):
given you to see past people'sfailures and mistakes, and you
see them for who they can becomein Christ.
Can you unpack a little bit as aspiritual leadership? What does
that look like to call to thedepth of another person's soul
to step into the fullness thatGod has called them? Whether
it's understanding grace,whether it's having people that
are around you, like there'ssomething unique that I think
(14:53):
God has been doing to yourleadership that I think is worth
exploring.
Joel Wayne (14:59):
Yeah, no, one, thank you. It's very kind of you. I
look at it and go, I know thatthe majority of my life for a
while was defined by my failuresand by my weaknesses and by my
inadequacies, right? People comeup to me like, Hey, that was a
great pastor. Was a greatmessage, I great don't hear, I
(15:20):
say thank you, say the rightthing, I really am grateful that
they're being kind.
I don't hear it though in myheart. All I see, like you can't
critique me more personally thanI critique myself. So I think
that's Satan and a stronghold,honestly. But as a result, what
I do is I go, man, I thinkmajority of people are defined
(15:42):
by certain things. And if we canexamine, if you can look at
other people and go, man,they're defining their life
based on a lie.
They're defining their lifebased on things that are not
biblically God oriented truth,right? And help them redefine. I
don't know if there's a greatIsn't that what Jesus did? Yeah.
I'm not saying I'm anything likethat, but isn't that what Jesus
(16:06):
did?
Yeah. With Peter, even when hestarted to just think?
Michael Rubino (16:08):
It's a great example,
Joel Wayne (16:09):
And I go, if I can do that, just my job is not the
number of people, my job is todo that for whomever God has put
around me. If I can do that,I've lived a good life. And so
for me, it's a matter of helpingpeople go, man, I'm defining
this on loss, I'm defining thison being told that I wasn't good
(16:32):
enough in the past, I'm beingdefined by all these other
things. And if we could startlearning to be defined by the
truth of scripture, everythingchanges.
Luke Bilberry (16:41):
Yeah, you've said before in certain leadership
conversations that the callcalibrates everything.
Joel Wayne (16:48):
Yes.
Luke Bilberry (16:49):
And I think, Pastor Michael, what I'm seeing
from your church and what youguys are communicating is once
you guys have clarity oncalling, everything else lines
up in that every decision, everyaction step begins
Michael Rubino (16:59):
It to clarifies everything.
Luke Bilberry (17:01):
And so I'm wondering for us, when we think
about spiritual leadership,y'all can give me some feedback
on this, but what I'm hearingy'all say is that spiritual
leadership clearly knows whatGod has called them to and in
doing so, was going to make apathway for the other people to
follow behind.
Joel Wayne (17:16):
Yeah, because we say clarity breeds confidence. Yeah,
yeah. Clarity breeds confidence.There's this confidence, this
energy of, No, no, no, is whatGod has called you to. You don't
have to be defined by yourprevious failure, but you can be
defined by the other gifts thatyou have and the other people
around you.
And it gives you thisconfidence. And the church is
better all for it. And we see itover and over again, right?
Michael Rubino (17:35):
Oh, without a doubt. I think this is why when
you say spiritual leadership isbirthed or born out of
discipleship, if you jumpstraight to leadership and you
don't first hit discipleship,which gives you the spiritual
part of leadership, then youdefault to all these
Joel Wayne (17:52):
You're gonna make it about self.
Michael Rubino (17:54):
Right. You know, I'm gonna probably date myself,
but like, you know, all thisstuff came out of the Lee
Iacocca, great man, leadership,I'm in charge, like bold,
strong, you know, three piecesuit, make sure my tie is right.
Like, and we just defaulted tothat in the church because
there's a certain point inchurch history, if we're being
honest, we just stopped doingdiscipleship, at least here in
(18:16):
North America. And so wedefaulted, we said we don't need
discipleship because we havestrong leadership, We shook the
spiritual point So out of if youwant spiritual back in
leadership, you got to putdiscipleship back in the church.
That's foundational.
Luke Bilberry (18:32):
The discipleship is not just content absorption.
A life that's lived in step withJesus by the power of Holy
Spirit walking with you, thatdeep John 15 abiding aspect. So
why don't we kind of begin toland this plane with this
conversation again? Some of thestuff we have, these ideas we're
talking about, a lot of it'sunscripted. And as I'm hearing
(18:52):
you guys talk and just kind ofjust processing this, I'm
thinking about Peter.
I'm thinking about his journey,right? And he gets to this
moment in John 21. Jesus andPeter sitting on there and he
says, Hey, Peter, do you loveme? Right? And we know this Of
Joel Wayne (19:10):
course I love you.
Luke Bilberry (19:10):
And then feed my sheep, he gives them the next
step. Do you love me? Feed mysheep. Do you love me? Tend to
my sheep.
Michael Rubino (19:16):
Right?
Luke Bilberry (19:17):
What would you say in who we're talking to,
whoever's listening this ideaagain, what's that next step?
Because we've all had moments offailure. We've all had moments
of mistakes, but we all knowthat God is calling us to more
as a disciple. And for many ofus, that's that's what we're
here for is Be the Church is tosee more spiritual leaders
raised up to take the next tier,to lead the next group of
(19:37):
disciples. And then that wouldraise up another spiritual
leader who leads another groupof disciples.
Right? This is implantingchurches across the world. It's
in our current churches andrevitalization work here. But
what would you guys say tosomeone out there to help take a
next step?
Michael Rubino (19:52):
I'm gonna say something that might sound
counterintuitive, But if youwant to go on a journey of
spiritual leadership, you got tochoose the right spiritual
leaders to follow. Practice yourfollowership first. That sounds
counterintuitive, but you'llnever be a good leader if you
don't learn how to be a goodfollower.
Luke Bilberry (20:09):
Can you give me a little bit more on that? If I'm
looking for a good spiritualleader follow-up, give me a
couple like three boom boombooms.
Michael Rubino (20:16):
So I look at guys that I respect their
ministries, right? There's a fewkey guys that I will refer to
their ministries and there'speople in my local church. So
I'm just lay elders, lay people,who I just respect their walk
and I will just learn from themand with them, whether it
doesn't have to be Bibleteaching, it could be life
teaching, right? So I look bigpicture, people that I love what
(20:38):
they're doing and God's movingin their life. And then locally,
I find some people.
Luke Bilberry (20:42):
You're looking for the fruit of their life,
you're testing them, walking inmen and worthy of the gospel.
Michael Rubino (20:46):
And then I just try to sit and be humble and
just learn and that makes me abetter leader.
Luke Bilberry (20:50):
That's cool. What would you say,
Joel Wayne (20:51):
I'm going to say one share, share with one and then
sacrifice in one area. So what Imean by that is this, if
everybody would recognize, if weneed to share the gospel, our
love of Jesus with one person,you can just say, Hey, can I
tell you what God did in mylife? If you're not willing to
share with one person, eitheryou're learning about how little
he means to you, or maybe hemeans a lot. You can't be too
(21:14):
crass in this. And you'relearning how inadequate you are
to actually speak about them.
Yeah. It's one of the two. Soone, share with one. The other
piece is to sacrifice somethingand evaluate if it's actually
sacrifice. Evaluate if it like,what are you sacrificing in
terms of time, like where ithurts?
I think sacrifice almost alwayshurts, doesn't it?
Luke Bilberry (21:36):
It's like, it's inherent in the word, but we
Joel Wayne (21:37):
don't think about it.
Michael Rubino (21:38):
We don't think of it that way. But if you don't
want to sacrifice, you'll neverbe a spiritual leader. That's a
good word.
Joel Wayne (21:43):
So I go, if we can share with one person, if
everybody in our church sharedwith one person, either you're
gonna learn about one, what hemeans to you actually, or just
where you're inadequate and youcan learn how to share better.
So there's a both. Some peoplejust they're too insecure or
maybe they've just never doneit, but they love Jesus. So it's
gonna show you, does he meanenough to you or you just need
to be trained up in that.
Luke Bilberry (22:03):
Give some experience, stretch those
muscles.
Joel Wayne (22:05):
Yeah, and you can do it. You gotta
Luke Bilberry (22:07):
do it. Yeah, you guys, you got it, you got it, go
do it.
Joel Wayne (22:09):
Yeah, go do it. The other is the sacrifice. What's
one thing that you can trulysacrifice? And that may be the
dollar, but it also may be, man,my church needs somebody ten
hours a week right now. I don'tknow how I'm going to find it,
but I'm going to do it for thenext four months.
Sacrifice something in order tobetter do it. Because I think
(22:29):
those are Christ like traits.
Luke Bilberry (22:30):
It reminds me of like, you know, the pastor talks
about, you know, to bring asacrifice of praise, but we just
show up at Inflict sacrifice. InWestern context, sometimes we
just show up for church, theprogram, but what does it
actually mean
Joel Wayne (22:41):
to me? Stop labeling sacrifices and it's
Michael Rubino (22:45):
not quite the same thing.
Joel Wayne (22:46):
I had to go to service at 08:00. I'm like, so?
Luke Bilberry (22:50):
Yeah, exactly. And that feels like that could
be a whole conversation in andof itself. But here, want you,
we wanted to invite you to takethe wall today. So you hear that
from Pastor Joel, share with onesacrifice, one thing. We also
want you to click and we've gota PDF to help you think through,
are you a spiritual leader?
Here's some questions for you tothink about and to honestly
evaluate the sphere of influencethat you have and some steps
(23:10):
that you can take to be aspiritual leader. So we're
really excited to give you thisresource to equip you with that,
and we are blessed that we getto be the church with you. As
always, if we can do anythingfor you, we're here to serve you
because we're in this together.Let's go be the church.
God has raised up specific people to be certain
(00:02):
leaders, but God has then alsoraised up everybody to influence
others. It's a great commissionto empower them.
Michael Rubino (00:08):
When you read servant leadership literature,
they do everything but quote thescripture. I mean, they're just
paraphrasing biblicalprinciples.
Joel Wayne (00:14):
I've read before and said, wait. Is that John? Or
Mark?
Michael Rubino (00:18):
Is that In one of the gospels?
Joel Wayne (00:19):
Yeah.
Luke Bilberry (00:19):
Yeah. Welcome to Be The Church podcast, where we
are passionate about helpingequip local churches to raise up
spiritual leaders. It's it'swhat we're called to do to
advance the kingdom of God, andwe're grateful that we get to be
the church with you to do ittogether because God is on the
move all across the world andhis Kingdom is coming. It is
here. It's now.
It's about Jesus. And so we'regrateful that we get to have a
conversation about spiritualleadership. And so really glad
(00:42):
to have Pastor Joel and PastorMichael Rubino back with us to
chat about something that we areall very, very passionate about.
It is what we're giving all ofour time and energy and what we
feel called to right now is toraise up spiritual leaders and
to release them to do even morethan we could have ever imagined
for the sake of the kingdom allacross the world. And so I love
Pastor Joel, why don't you helpus define what is spiritual
(01:06):
leadership?
Joel Wayne (01:07):
I think you probably need to speak of what it's not
as well, and even what we'vemade leadership. Today,
leadership is, maybe you guysdisagree, but it seems to be
this word that is elevated abovewhere it should. God gives
everybody different roles,different responsibilities in
the kingdom of God. And nowtoday, everybody wants to be a
leader, right? To me, I thinkabout when someone says, and I
(01:31):
hear frequently, everybody canbe a leader.
I get what they're saying, I do,I Everybody has influence.
Everybody does have influence.Everybody can impact somebody
else. I get But not everybody isa leader's kind of saying, you
know, I laugh at this, there'sno such thing as a dumb
question. Yes, there is.
Put that down. There's some dumbquestions. And again, I get what
(01:51):
people are saying, but God hasraised up specific people to be
certain leaders, but God hasthen also raised up everybody to
influence others. It's a greatcommission to empower them. And
so when you look at spiritualleadership, how are we
encouraging, teaching,equipping, embracing for others
lead others, for disciples tolead disciples, to allow them to
(02:16):
emulate the teachings andpractices of Jesus Christ?
Yeah, Yeah. That, I mean, thatplays with discipleship, so is
spiritual leader discipleship.It is. It is. It is.
Is. What I say is spiritualleadership is actually born out
of, birth out of, it comes fromhealthy discipleship.
Luke Bilberry (02:35):
Right. You look at Jesus' model, and maybe,
Michael, you can unpack this alittle bit, like the biblical
model that Jesus would have doneto raise up spiritual leaders,
make disciples, maybe somethingfor you to kind of unpack for
us, but that's what he does, ishe, there's the disciples, but
we hear about a few differentones that he is called to
specific roles with even in hisgroup of disciples. Right? And
so there is this level ofspiritual leadership and
(02:57):
discipleship going hand in hand,but we spiritual leaders. So why
don't you kind of unpack alittle bit more?
What are some characteristics ofspiritual leadership and how do
you see Jesus doing that?
Michael Rubino (03:06):
Yeah, you know, what's great about this topic is
that the church co opted a lotof secular mindsets regarding
leadership over the past maybethirty years, only for the
secular world and the academicworld to co opt the biblical
version of leadership. So rightnow you can't go through a
bookstore without picking uptransformational leadership,
(03:28):
change leadership, leadership.Servant leadership. And when you
read servant literature, they doeverything but quote the
scripture. I mean, they're justparaphrasing biblical
principles.
Joel Wayne (03:37):
I've read that before and so wait. Is that
John? I've read that before. OrMark. Is it
Michael Rubino (03:41):
in one of the gospels?
Joel Wayne (03:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Rubino (03:42):
And so basically, this is going to
sound overly simplified, butsometimes the most profound
things are simple. Spiritualleadership is spiritual at its
foundation. So spiritual leadersaren't self serving, they're
self sacrificial. They don'tlead from the tower, they lead
(04:04):
by example from the front. Ithink these are some of the
things we're seeing now, whereasyou had this great leader
syndrome in the church wherepastors were untouchable and you
couldn't talk to them, theydidn't, God forbid, did any
actual work.
And I think we're deconstructingthat in a beautiful way. Because
when you see Jesus lead hisdisciples, he's side by side,
(04:26):
but not everyone, not everyone,he chose 12 primarily invested
in three, doesn't mean thepastor is responsible or a
leader can lead everyone. Butthey lead by serving and
modeling and doing, not simplyteaching.
Joel Wayne (04:41):
So let me go ahead and say that's part of the
reason our understanding ofspiritual leadership is
convoluted is because we believethat pastors are to be leading
everybody in the church. And sonow we don't have the people
sitting in the church actuallycarrying the responsibility that
they have. We're outsourcing it.We're outsourcing something that
every person is called to. Andyou know, we can speak about
(05:03):
that as well.
I think part of it is definingit for your congregation because
everybody's in a different partof that journey.
Luke Bilberry (05:10):
Right,
Joel Wayne (05:10):
right. Everybody's, so I look at spiritual
leadership, and according toScripture, you're going to go,
well, you serving? Right? I wantto know, in my church, I want to
know how many people areutilizing their area of
spiritual giftedness to serve. Iwant to know that.
I know how many people serveevery Sunday. I know if people
are coming more and more intothat group, you know, how many
(05:31):
are we adding? But then we wantto know if people are giving,
and then we want to know, arethey in any type of group? Like
we start to measure it, buteverybody's in a progression of
spiritual growth. Transformationis a continual process.
That's what is someone'sprocess, growth in becoming like
(05:53):
Jesus?
Luke Bilberry (05:54):
So maybe let me kind of unpack a few things or
have you guys unpack some datathat we're getting from Barna
says that 39% of Christians arenot engaged in any form of
discipleship. So have we made amistake, the system we've built,
have we made discipleship, thisidea of come intend on a Sunday
morning? And to what degree arewe, the church leaders, the
(06:17):
spiritual leaders, needing toredefine what discipleship looks
like? If we're spiritual leadersand we're going be held
responsible to the Lord Jesusfor his disciples, for making
the disciples, what are somethings that we may need to
retool and rethink? Like you'retalking about, we're going to
measure these things, we'regoing to look at these things.
But it seems like we have acrisis of 39% of people are
(06:37):
saying, I'm not involved in anyform. These are Christians
saying, I'm not informed in thediscipleship pathway or process.
Michael Rubino (06:42):
Well, we've made it a program. Like, there it is.
Like, we've made it a program,teach this course, talk about
this for a season, then move on.There is nothing deeper than
discipleship becausediscipleship doesn't have an
I've arrived moment. It's aprocess.
As we've said, if you've doneten weeks, you're a disciple. Or
(07:03):
if you do, like we were justtalking before we started
recording about different typesof people that are involved in
discipleship. But what the oneor two things we're doing is not
the totality. Like some areserving, some are teaching, some
are learning, right? Some aregood at giving, but there's a
kind of a totality of thesethings should all be happening
simultaneously.
(07:24):
And how to measure that'sdifficult, it's messy, which is
probably why we don't focus onit.
Joel Wayne (07:28):
Many people know Andy Murray, right? So let's go
to some things that he wroteabout decades ago. He often
spoke of complete surrender. Ifwe really want to go at just a,
hey, a follower, a disciple ofJesus, a spiritual leader is
going to have complete surrenderof everything. They're fine, and
we could all preach this, right?
Their finances and their timeand their energy, the way they
(07:49):
raise their kids, but that'sstill ambiguous in many regards.
We have to start, I think moreclearly defining as a leader for
the people that I am leading,this is what I'm asking you to
do that is biblically rooted andgrounded. And I'm asking you to
do this. And that's just part ofthe process. It may not be
(08:10):
everything,
Michael Rubino (08:11):
but it's And it can't be everything, right?
Joel Wayne (08:12):
I was just telling the story here, we've got a guy
who, newer to our ministry, andhere he is, and he steps in
every Sunday, he comes out at8AM, so we have hundreds of come
to 8AM to actually free upspaces for the other services to
follow, which is wonderful. Andthen he drives one of our
shuttles up and down the streetso that we can add additional
(08:33):
vehicles and cars, and then hebreaks down all the chairs so
that our worship venues here canbe used for students later in
the evening. That's servantleadership. That's a part of it.
Don't beat that down.
Celebrate that. Yes. And thenI've got another guy, was like,
Why more involved? He goes, Whatdo you mean? Well, he's here
(08:54):
every week for worship, but he'son the fourth rendition of
walking through something I didover three years ago, which is
challenging people to walkthrough the Gospel of John with
their employees or their peopleat work.
He's on the fourth round. Wow.
Michael Rubino (09:07):
Yeah,
Joel Wayne (09:07):
that's a win. Another He's It looks different,
but that's a win. And we need todefine what the biblical win is.
Luke Bilberry (09:16):
Yeah. I want to kind of circle back to that just
a little bit as we really kindof think about this idea of
taking the wall. What does itmean for us to go over the
obstacles as we drive down inthis? But spiritual leadership,
man, there's highs and lows inthe midst of everything. And
we're thinking about, likeEphesians four eleven tells us,
it's to equip the saints.
Our job as spiritual leaders isto equip the saints, the
disciples, for the work ofministry. And we get to do that.
(09:41):
And so as we're walking thatpath forward, we're going have
some wins and we're going tohave some failures. We're going
to misstep. I think it would behelpful for us, for you guys, to
maybe even share a moment ofvulnerability at a time that you
you were trying to lead in aGodward direction.
You were trying to be earnest inthat, but even you made a
misstep because we can learnfrom our failures. I think
(10:01):
that's one of the greatestteachers we have is failure,
right? Is we look at ourmistakes and go, Oh, okay, I now
know how to not do that again.When you think about spiritual
leadership, again, what isspiritual leadership? Sometimes
it's easy to find what it's not,and we can define it by looking
at our failures and doing.
Michael Rubino (10:17):
We learn much more from our failures than our
successes. At least that's mystory. And so I think probably
my biggest failure, and there'sprobably a handful, but I'll
just pick one out for the sakeof brevity, was through a season
as a leader where someone didnot do it as good as I thought I
could do it.
Luke Bilberry (10:35):
A little pride there, sir.
Michael Rubino (10:37):
100%, that I would not release it. And what I
was doing, number 100% pride, isI'm this talented in this many
areas, which was not true. Andpart of it was being overly
protective and not being willingto slow down to bring people
with me. So part of what I wasdoing was running over people to
reach new people.
Luke Bilberry (10:56):
So you weren't bringing, you weren't especially
leading.
Michael Rubino (10:59):
Was bringing no one along with me. So if you
look behind you and there'snobody following you, you're not
leading.
Joel Wayne (11:06):
Not a leader.
Michael Rubino (11:06):
And that was one of my big moments where I
recognized that I had notbrought anyone along with me on
this journey. And while somethings were going well, it
eventually all crumbled inwardbecause I didn't have a strong
enough foundation. So that wasmy failure.
Luke Bilberry (11:23):
There's a ton to learn in there. I appreciate it.
One, thanks for sharing thatvulnerability because I think
it's to a degree, everyone has acertain leadership capacity. And
if we're trying to create a newsystem of discipleship, a
spiritual leadership, if it'sall on us, then we're living
back into that program. Right?
We're living because I'm notraising up, we're not releasing
new leaders, We're not gettingnew ideas and new inputs from
the people that God has given usthis kaleidoscopic grace to make
(11:46):
this beautiful thing in ourcongregations and in our
communities.
Michael Rubino (11:48):
Right? Jesus sent out the seventy two two by
two. I'm pretty sure he couldhave done it better.
Luke Bilberry (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Rubino (11:54):
Pretty sure like he could have went, but that I
had to model myself after himmore.
Joel Wayne (11:59):
He sent
Luke Bilberry (12:00):
those guys out and he got the report back, you
know, and they worked with him.
Michael Rubino (12:03):
And he allowed them to fail.
Luke Bilberry (12:04):
Yeah, that's good. Well, what would you say,
Pastor Joel? What are kind ofsome of those spiritual
leadership moments where you'vestumbled and you've learned a
lot from?
Joel Wayne (12:10):
I remember at First Church, it's very similar to
yours, Michael. At First Church,I'm in lead pastor. Was 29, I
think when I went as a lead andI'm going, I didn't know what
was going on. Let's just behonest, you act all cool.
Michael Rubino (12:22):
Oh yeah, but you don't know, You're terrified.
Joel Wayne (12:25):
And I had nothing, nothing was I trained in by
seminary. Right. So I go
Luke Bilberry (12:33):
You probably had a good book collection,
Joel Wayne (12:34):
I did have a nice book collection.
Michael Rubino (12:36):
Systematic theology books
Joel Wayne (12:38):
are tight.
Michael Rubino (12:38):
Yeah. But leading people is
Joel Wayne (12:40):
a And little I had a realization one day of looking
around me and go, where arethey? And it was very similar to
you. And I recognized theyweren't there because I wasn't
worth following. And in thatmoment just was, and I speak
about it quickly because itkeeps me from getting overly
(13:00):
dramatic or tearful on itbecause I wasn't leading them
well. I wasn't providing theclarity for them to feel like
that they were actually winning,not for themselves, but just to
be like Jesus.
Like showing up at church isn'ta win for me, it's not. And so
even with leading staff, I hadto change that. So leading
(13:22):
people, leading staff, leadingmy home, it caused me, I was so
grateful for that because I hadtwo kids at the time, I have
more than that now, but I go, itcaused me to parent differently.
How could I know that I was agood parent? And so all of a
sudden I started differentexpectations for my children.
(13:43):
And I started to raise themwith, you're going to be a
leader of men strong and gentle.And I started to raise them with
certain scripture that they hadto know cause I wanted it to be
engraved on their heart. Well,same with lay leadership, same
with people at the church, I hadto start defining with clarity
what the expectations were. Andby the way, I found out in that
(14:04):
moment, I won as a leader, theywon as a follower, the church
won as the bride of Christ, andso God received glory.
Luke Bilberry (14:13):
Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. One of the
things this is not a I'm gonnacatch you off guard with this
question, so I apologize forthis. One of the things I've
noticed about your leadership,Pastor Joel, is that you have a
unique ability to see beyond theexterior for the people around
you. You have this unique Ibelieve it's a gift that God has
(14:33):
given you to see past people'sfailures and mistakes, and you
see them for who they can becomein Christ.
Can you unpack a little bit as aspiritual leadership? What does
that look like to call to thedepth of another person's soul
to step into the fullness thatGod has called them? Whether
it's understanding grace,whether it's having people that
are around you, like there'ssomething unique that I think
(14:53):
God has been doing to yourleadership that I think is worth
exploring.
Joel Wayne (14:59):
Yeah, no, one, thank you. It's very kind of you. I
look at it and go, I know thatthe majority of my life for a
while was defined by my failuresand by my weaknesses and by my
inadequacies, right? People comeup to me like, Hey, that was a
great pastor. Was a greatmessage, I great don't hear, I
(15:20):
say thank you, say the rightthing, I really am grateful that
they're being kind.
I don't hear it though in myheart. All I see, like you can't
critique me more personally thanI critique myself. So I think
that's Satan and a stronghold,honestly. But as a result, what
I do is I go, man, I thinkmajority of people are defined
(15:42):
by certain things. And if we canexamine, if you can look at
other people and go, man,they're defining their life
based on a lie.
They're defining their lifebased on things that are not
biblically God oriented truth,right? And help them redefine. I
don't know if there's a greatIsn't that what Jesus did? Yeah.
I'm not saying I'm anything likethat, but isn't that what Jesus
(16:06):
did?
Yeah. With Peter, even when hestarted to just think?
Michael Rubino (16:08):
It's a great example,
Joel Wayne (16:09):
And I go, if I can do that, just my job is not the
number of people, my job is todo that for whomever God has put
around me. If I can do that,I've lived a good life. And so
for me, it's a matter of helpingpeople go, man, I'm defining
this on loss, I'm defining thison being told that I wasn't good
(16:32):
enough in the past, I'm beingdefined by all these other
things. And if we could startlearning to be defined by the
truth of scripture, everythingchanges.
Luke Bilberry (16:41):
Yeah, you've said before in certain leadership
conversations that the callcalibrates everything.
Joel Wayne (16:48):
Yes.
Luke Bilberry (16:49):
And I think, Pastor Michael, what I'm seeing
from your church and what youguys are communicating is once
you guys have clarity oncalling, everything else lines
up in that every decision, everyaction step begins
Michael Rubino (16:59):
It to clarifies everything.
Luke Bilberry (17:01):
And so I'm wondering for us, when we think
about spiritual leadership,y'all can give me some feedback
on this, but what I'm hearingy'all say is that spiritual
leadership clearly knows whatGod has called them to and in
doing so, was going to make apathway for the other people to
follow behind.
Joel Wayne (17:16):
Yeah, because we say clarity breeds confidence. Yeah,
yeah. Clarity breeds confidence.There's this confidence, this
energy of, No, no, no, is whatGod has called you to. You don't
have to be defined by yourprevious failure, but you can be
defined by the other gifts thatyou have and the other people
around you.
And it gives you thisconfidence. And the church is
better all for it. And we see itover and over again, right?
Michael Rubino (17:35):
Oh, without a doubt. I think this is why when
you say spiritual leadership isbirthed or born out of
discipleship, if you jumpstraight to leadership and you
don't first hit discipleship,which gives you the spiritual
part of leadership, then youdefault to all these
Joel Wayne (17:52):
You're gonna make it about self.
Michael Rubino (17:54):
Right. You know, I'm gonna probably date myself,
but like, you know, all thisstuff came out of the Lee
Iacocca, great man, leadership,I'm in charge, like bold,
strong, you know, three piecesuit, make sure my tie is right.
Like, and we just defaulted tothat in the church because
there's a certain point inchurch history, if we're being
honest, we just stopped doingdiscipleship, at least here in
(18:16):
North America. And so wedefaulted, we said we don't need
discipleship because we havestrong leadership, We shook the
spiritual point So out of if youwant spiritual back in
leadership, you got to putdiscipleship back in the church.
That's foundational.
Luke Bilberry (18:32):
The discipleship is not just content absorption.
A life that's lived in step withJesus by the power of Holy
Spirit walking with you, thatdeep John 15 abiding aspect. So
why don't we kind of begin toland this plane with this
conversation again? Some of thestuff we have, these ideas we're
talking about, a lot of it'sunscripted. And as I'm hearing
(18:52):
you guys talk and just kind ofjust processing this, I'm
thinking about Peter.
I'm thinking about his journey,right? And he gets to this
moment in John 21. Jesus andPeter sitting on there and he
says, Hey, Peter, do you loveme? Right? And we know this Of
Joel Wayne (19:10):
course I love you.
Luke Bilberry (19:10):
And then feed my sheep, he gives them the next
step. Do you love me? Feed mysheep. Do you love me? Tend to
my sheep.
Michael Rubino (19:16):
Right?
Luke Bilberry (19:17):
What would you say in who we're talking to,
whoever's listening this ideaagain, what's that next step?
Because we've all had moments offailure. We've all had moments
of mistakes, but we all knowthat God is calling us to more
as a disciple. And for many ofus, that's that's what we're
here for is Be the Church is tosee more spiritual leaders
raised up to take the next tier,to lead the next group of
(19:37):
disciples. And then that wouldraise up another spiritual
leader who leads another groupof disciples.
Right? This is implantingchurches across the world. It's
in our current churches andrevitalization work here. But
what would you guys say tosomeone out there to help take a
next step?
Michael Rubino (19:52):
I'm gonna say something that might sound
counterintuitive, But if youwant to go on a journey of
spiritual leadership, you got tochoose the right spiritual
leaders to follow. Practice yourfollowership first. That sounds
counterintuitive, but you'llnever be a good leader if you
don't learn how to be a goodfollower.
Luke Bilberry (20:09):
Can you give me a little bit more on that? If I'm
looking for a good spiritualleader follow-up, give me a
couple like three boom boombooms.
Michael Rubino (20:16):
So I look at guys that I respect their
ministries, right? There's a fewkey guys that I will refer to
their ministries and there'speople in my local church. So
I'm just lay elders, lay people,who I just respect their walk
and I will just learn from themand with them, whether it
doesn't have to be Bibleteaching, it could be life
teaching, right? So I look bigpicture, people that I love what
(20:38):
they're doing and God's movingin their life. And then locally,
I find some people.
Luke Bilberry (20:42):
You're looking for the fruit of their life,
you're testing them, walking inmen and worthy of the gospel.
Michael Rubino (20:46):
And then I just try to sit and be humble and
just learn and that makes me abetter leader.
Luke Bilberry (20:50):
That's cool. What would you say,
Joel Wayne (20:51):
I'm going to say one share, share with one and then
sacrifice in one area. So what Imean by that is this, if
everybody would recognize, if weneed to share the gospel, our
love of Jesus with one person,you can just say, Hey, can I
tell you what God did in mylife? If you're not willing to
share with one person, eitheryou're learning about how little
he means to you, or maybe hemeans a lot. You can't be too
(21:14):
crass in this. And you'relearning how inadequate you are
to actually speak about them.
Yeah. It's one of the two. Soone, share with one. The other
piece is to sacrifice somethingand evaluate if it's actually
sacrifice. Evaluate if it like,what are you sacrificing in
terms of time, like where ithurts?
I think sacrifice almost alwayshurts, doesn't it?
Luke Bilberry (21:36):
It's like, it's inherent in the word, but we
Joel Wayne (21:37):
don't think about it.
Michael Rubino (21:38):
We don't think of it that way. But if you don't
want to sacrifice, you'll neverbe a spiritual leader. That's a
good word.
Joel Wayne (21:43):
So I go, if we can share with one person, if
everybody in our church sharedwith one person, either you're
gonna learn about one, what hemeans to you actually, or just
where you're inadequate and youcan learn how to share better.
So there's a both. Some peoplejust they're too insecure or
maybe they've just never doneit, but they love Jesus. So it's
gonna show you, does he meanenough to you or you just need
to be trained up in that.
Luke Bilberry (22:03):
Give some experience, stretch those
muscles.
Joel Wayne (22:05):
Yeah, and you can do it. You gotta
Luke Bilberry (22:07):
do it. Yeah, you guys, you got it, you got it, go
do it.
Joel Wayne (22:09):
Yeah, go do it. The other is the sacrifice. What's
one thing that you can trulysacrifice? And that may be the
dollar, but it also may be, man,my church needs somebody ten
hours a week right now. I don'tknow how I'm going to find it,
but I'm going to do it for thenext four months.
Sacrifice something in order tobetter do it. Because I think
(22:29):
those are Christ like traits.
Luke Bilberry (22:30):
It reminds me of like, you know, the pastor talks
about, you know, to bring asacrifice of praise, but we just
show up at Inflict sacrifice. InWestern context, sometimes we
just show up for church, theprogram, but what does it
actually mean
Joel Wayne (22:41):
to me? Stop labeling sacrifices and it's
Michael Rubino (22:45):
not quite the same thing.
Joel Wayne (22:46):
I had to go to service at 08:00. I'm like, so?
Luke Bilberry (22:50):
Yeah, exactly. And that feels like that could
be a whole conversation in andof itself. But here, want you,
we wanted to invite you to takethe wall today. So you hear that
from Pastor Joel, share with onesacrifice, one thing. We also
want you to click and we've gota PDF to help you think through,
are you a spiritual leader?
Here's some questions for you tothink about and to honestly
evaluate the sphere of influencethat you have and some steps
(23:10):
that you can take to be aspiritual leader. So we're
really excited to give you thisresource to equip you with that,
and we are blessed that we getto be the church with you. As
always, if we can do anythingfor you, we're here to serve you
because we're in this together.Let's go be the church.
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