April 16, 2025 • 36 mins
Discover how a visionary initiative in Muskeg Lake Cree Nation is redefining food security and community resilience. Join Steve Wigg as he shares the inspiring journey of turning farmland into a thriving food forest that blends Indigenous wisdom with contemporary science. This lush ecosystem produces abundant food, serves as a community hub, and offers invaluable lessons in sustainability, traditional knowledge, and climate adaptation.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast.
I'm your host, michelle Brass.
Here we dive into diverseperspectives on agriculture and
land management, blendingWestern science and farmer
expertise with Indigenousknowledge and wisdom.
Together, we can addresschallenges and opportunities
that enhance agriculturalpractices to support healthy
(00:29):
land, water and sky for futuregenerations.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey.
On today's episode, we're goingto be learning about the Muskeg
Lake Cree Nation's food forest.
We'll learn more about how itstarted, some of the challenges
faced along the way and whatothers can learn from their
experience.
Steve Wigg is a Food Securityand Climate Change Adaptation
(00:53):
Manager for Muskeg Lake CreeNation.
He's been working for thecommunity since 2017, and he
took the lead role in creatingthe food forest.
He's also the Muskeg Lakecoordinator for Bridge to Land,
water, sky, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Steve, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Michelle, good to behere.
So what is a food forest?
Food forest is the idea oftrying to integrate more food
into how a forest naturallygrows.
So instead of having rows ofsingle species trees or shrubs
producing fruit, you wouldintegrate it with more layers
and more biodiversity, so youmight have a ground cover layer,
even some roots, vines climbingup the trees, different shrubs
(01:33):
and even canopy trees, and youmight have more biodiversity in
warmer climates.
So ours here consists mostly ofapples for the canopy and some
pears we plan to put in, and wehave cherries for the shrubs,
hascaps, blueberries, saskatoons, and then we have grapes
growing up the fences and aroundour gazebos and different root
(01:53):
crops.
We're trying to get integratedas well.
So, yeah, trying to get all thedifferent layers that a natural
forest would have.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh wow.
So why did Muskeg Lake want tocreate a food forest in their
community?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, canadian Feed the Children was actually
funding with some money for foodsecurity.
Glenna Cayenne is a residentfrom Muskeg Lake.
She was coordinating threedifferent First Nation
communities on food security andthen they had a one-week-long
training program and I wasbrought in to talk about food
forests and permaculture, talkabout food forests and
(02:26):
permaculture, and by the end ofit Glenna said I want that let's
do something long term that'lllast, not just short cooking
classes and things like that.
Let's make something that'lllast into the future.
And so we went ahead with it.
We did a bit of a design, gotsome input from the community
and what kind of things to addinto it, because it doesn't have
to be just food productions whoalso became a kind of a
community space vision toreconnect people to the land.
As Harry LaFond likes to sayand it is really true Get the
(02:48):
kids out of the classroom intoanother space.
Yeah, reconnecting with theearth.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh, that's awesome.
I love that and it fits reallywell with one of the goals for
Bridge to Land Water Sky, whichis increasing food security and
sovereignty in local communities.
Why do you think that that issuch an important issue today?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting.
I mean, we're in the breadbasketof the world and you could say
we were food secure a handful ofdecades ago and then somehow
now we're not.
And the pandemic reallyhighlighted a lot of, I guess,
weaknesses in our global supplychains and the awareness is kind
of resurfacing that, yes, wecan still grow a lot of
(03:26):
commodity crops, we can stillhave a large agriculture
industry, but why not dedicatesome of the land and some of our
resources to creating foodsecurity closer to home, kind of
bringing back some of the wayswe use to do things, but maybe
with a bit more, bit morescience and awareness of caring
for the earth, combined withlocal food production, which
also fits with the Cree cultureof.
(03:47):
You know we are one with theearth, the soil, all the animals
.
We're all kind of family, so weshould take care of each other
and, yeah, this kind of fitsinto that works really well.
So if we have thousands ofacres of land, what's a few
acres to provide food for thecommunity and become less
reliant on the outside sources?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well and I imagine it fits in well with your role as
climate change adaptationcoordinator as well with looking
at the changes that we'reseeing when it comes to the
lands, the waters, foodproduction.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, the climate change coordinator kind of grew
out of the food security,because so much of the funding
is really tied together in a lotof the avenues, especially even
bridges into health, and it'skind of all over the place.
Now, as we realize, it willimpact every bit of our life and
food is a part of every aspectof our life, so it all really is
(04:35):
interconnected.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So when you were talking to Muskeg Lake about
this and you told me aboutGlenacan from Canadian Feed the
Children about this project, wasit difficult to get the idea
going or was this quite smooth?
There's a lot of communitiesthat might look at different
projects food sovereigntyprojects and sometimes not
everyone's always on board.
What was it like in thisparticular scenario?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, muskeg Lake, I mean the leadership overall has
been extremely supportive of theidea.
They see the importance of itand I think it was really
helpful, like our first plantingday.
We had like four differentschools show up and it was like
quite a great community eventand that was.
I mean, if the goal itself wasstrictly food alone, there might
(05:18):
be a more practical approach atleast for, like, immediate food
.
But this is a long-termcommitment.
So it's been nice to see, evengoing through elections and
still the commitment to keep itgoing has remained, because they
see the growth.
Yeah, and it did take some time.
You know, the first year itused to be a farm field, so
keeping the weeds down and thenit just looked like a bunch of
(05:39):
little sticks coming out of theground, you know, a foot or two
feet tall.
It did take a few years for itto kind of soak into people's
minds what the actual potentialis going to be.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Well, tell us how it started then.
How does one start a foodforest?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, it definitely depends on where you live.
So, speaking from the AspenParkland transition zone, we're
kind of just about into theboreal but we're also a bit
above the prairie, so it is kindof applicable to a lot of areas
in Saskatchewan.
But definitely observe the landfirst.
(06:13):
Try to find out what it wasused for in the past, if it had
been farmed on.
Converting farmland likemarginal farmland would be a
really good option.
If you're going into morenatural land, then of course you
got to consider more of thewild competition, the friends
that are going to be going afteryour nice little trees you
plant.
So, yeah, just knowing the landand the features of the land,
(06:35):
what kind of wildlife you'llhave to protect your trees from
the kind of conditions.
Sometimes we get really reallycold, windy winters here and not
all trees really want to be outin the middle of the cold,
windy prairies all winter long.
So, yeah, just knowing the land, knowing the history, finding
out the soil type, becausedepending on the soil might
(06:57):
influence what kind of trees youplant or at least how you plant
them, the kind of wateringneeds you'll need over time, and
then, yeah, weeds of course,like ours was on an old farm
field.
So as soon as those herbicidesstop getting applied, there's,
you know, generations of seedswaiting to emerge, so you got to
have a plan to deal with them.
If you're going organic, andeven if you're not, I mean
(07:18):
they're going to come backeventually, unless you want to
keep applying.
So ground cover figuring out aground cover is something I wish
we would have done sooner on,but once we got that established
, it took a couple years becausewe started in a really dry year
, I think 2020 or 21.
But once that got established,it choked out pretty much all
the weeds, so we just have theodd thistle coming up here and
(07:40):
there, but that made it a lotmore comfortable to work and
bring people in when they're notgetting stabbed by thistles all
the time.
And start small would beanother one.
Like, you can always expand butstart small, especially if you
don't know what kind of fundingyou're working with or the human
capacity you have.
Like it's great to have thebiggest vision and all these
(08:01):
ideas, but just make sure yougot the people that can really
make it happen and the fundingtoday for them.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Well and tell us about the funding.
So, for those who areinterested or hearing this and
think it would be great fortheir community, tell us about
the funding process and how thatworked for you.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, well, canadian Feed the Children has been the
main supporter before I came andI started 2017.
So they've been a reallyreliable source and it doesn't
cover anything by any means, butit definitely gets us like our
main supplies that we need,helps us run a few events and
can, with subsidies fromagriculture, agri-food, canada,
it'll help cover some staff aswell.
(08:35):
But those subsidies from aafcuh, really important.
Yes, youth employment skillsprogram you can only use them
for one year because the idea isyou give them agriculture
experience and they move on todo more, which is also nice.
We've had two of our employeesmove on to study agriculture or
land management.
(08:57):
Then there's other, yeah,funding from the federal
government.
But I really do encourage, ifany nation takes it on, to
commit some form of steadyfunding to make sure that the
staff can do the work and keepthings going without stressing
about the next source, becausethat's very hard to develop.
There's so many avenues and somany ways to go and you need
consistency.
(09:17):
You can't wait for the funds tocome in when your planting
dates are very specific andharvests are very specific.
So I do encourage any nation ifanyone's listening that at
least dedicate some funds forconsistent staff at the very
least Once things get going, theinitial planting it's not a lot
(09:38):
of financial input to just keepthings sustained.
But then, once you get a lot ofproduce, you're going to need
storage and processing.
So that's something you have toconsider for five to 10 years
down the line where you'reactually going to deal with all
this food, how you're going toprocess it.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right, so tell me a bit about starting it.
You said like in the first yearit was just a few.
You know it looked like a fewsticks in the ground.
How much planning went into?
Was it planned out ahead oftime or once you got the funding
in place, kind of like, saw howmuch you had and then planted
and pivoted?
Tell me a bit about how muchlike was planned out ahead of
(10:19):
time, before planting.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
There was a reasonable amount of planning
done ahead of time.
However, the field was justconverted.
So the year before, like when Iwas first on site, it wasn't
farmed and I, literally, onetime I came, the weeds were like
up to my chest.
It was pretty incredible.
So it was like, yes, I could gothere, yes, I could stick the
shovel in the ground and youknow, see that there was
(10:44):
different kinds of soil and Iwas able to talk to some of the
like, the previous farmer of thesite and some people that knew
some of the history, so that didhelp.
So then, once we got it cleaneddown, I spent some time trying
to consider the slope anddifferent aspects of it, but in
reality the funding determinedthe trees we got, and the trees
were all purchased from a localnursery that was closing down
(11:05):
that year.
So what we put in was, you know, what we got for the money.
So, yes, some planning and yes,like, considerations of
sunlight and aspect, because youdon't want to crowd trees too
much, but not as much as I wouldhave liked, for sure, but it's
all working out right?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
that's why I ask, because it's, it seems, like one
of those projects where youplan as much as you can, but
then things come up and youadapt as you go.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
For sure, and I mean not knowing like the long term
desires of the community in thespace.
Those kind of evolved too,because maybe no one's ever had
a space like that where youintegrate like a living park
that's also food producing, withcommunity events.
So how do you, you know, keepthe quality control of the food
while still having kids runaround and play games and come
(11:51):
out for school groups?
If I could say anything in theend like it is great, I think
it's perfect what we've done,but it will cause challenges
down the line for like sellingproduce, like quality control
measures, because it's sointegrated.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Right, and tell me about that.
Like the vision for thecommunity, it wasn't just
planting just for foodproduction.
It sounds like there was a lotto do with relationships to the
land a place to gather childrenrunning amongst the food forest?
Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, and that's been like some of the best successes
really.
The trees have survived for themost part, we haven't had much
kill.
And then the students coming in.
We try to integrate with ourlocal school which is grade 1 to
7, as much as possible.
The kids come in the spring tohelp with the seeding and then
the fall to help with harvest.
And then we work with otherprogramming through prevention
(12:41):
department, boys' group, girls'group, things like like that and
get them out as much aspossible.
And then community events we'vehad we host our own.
We try to do a spring and afall one at least, and then
other departments or groups inthe community will use it.
Like we have barbecue and likean outdoor kitchen space there
in a gazebo.
So they're just last year theystarted to and I loved it.
(13:02):
I got the call.
Like Steve, we just want tohave Father's Day barbecue in
the food forest.
I'm like, go for it.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Oh, wonderful.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
It's not just on us now.
Others are starting to realizethey can use the space, and that
is a wonderful thing.
But there is, I guess, anothersafety concern just how public
can you make it and how can youkeep?
You know, it's just like anypark, any system there's risks
of things happening.
So that's a learning curve aswe develop too.
(13:30):
Do we keep it open during theday or do we lock it at night?
But we want it to be a publicspace, and that would be
different for every communityand where it's located.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Right, so, and I imagine that's evolving over
time since the beginning.
So what makes a food forestdifferent from, say, just just a
garden like?
Just like you said you talked abit about at the very beginning
?
It's more than just a row of oftrees or items that you plant.
It sounds like there's a verypurposeful kind of relationship
(13:59):
building, or you're trying to,are you trying to, mimic, like
the ecosystem of an actualforest that naturally grows?
Explain that a bit more thatwould be the ideal.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Um, it is a bit more challenging in our zone or our
uh environment versus, like Ifirst got introduced to
permaculture in the tropics.
There's a lot more layers, alot more faster growth.
So, um, there is comparisons.
But, like you couldn't grow areally thriving apple tree in
the middle of a really denseforest, it might not get enough
(14:31):
sunlight, so you do have to makesome changes, I guess, to what
a natural ecosystem would looklike, but the goals would still
be similar, like you're tryingto get as much biodiversity as
possible, because a pest mightbe a pest, but it's also a food
to something else that'sbeneficial.
And if you can facilitate thenatural balance, then you
shouldn't need to apply allkinds of herbicides and
(14:53):
pesticides, and then that's also, I guess, the fertilizer.
Like the natural cycling ofnutrients.
You know, trees drop theirleaves, animals drop their
droppings and there's cyclesthat happen in nature that allow
for the nutrients to be takenin by the plants.
And actually that is one pointto consider is, sometimes these
systems are not as tidy as somewould like or what they expect
(15:14):
from a park, and so that is abit of a learning curve, like we
grow the ground cover, but it'sto.
It's to suppress the weeds, butit's also to fertilize, like
there's clover in.
So they're adding nitrogen tothe soil but we don't want to
chop it down right away.
There's all these pollinators,so we're letting it grow big and
it's not the nicest to walk onin a park kind of setting.
So there is a bit of a balancebetween creating more of a
(15:35):
natural system and one thatpeople can run around and enjoy
with their bare feet.
Treating the soil really wellis one of the main features of
it protecting that soil, nottilling it up like in a garden,
exposing it to the sun and theerosion, but trying to protect
it and encourage life in thesoil as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, and that's been a theme from a lot of the
guests that we've talked to onthis podcast already is the
importance of soil and thatrelationship and how to build
healthy soil and all thecomponents that go into that
right.
It's more than just one thing.
It's many differentrelationships and really
building the right environment,which depends on your local
(16:14):
environment.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's what's fun.
Like I'm not Cree, I'm settlerdescendant.
But when I first was told ortaught the term, like Wakotuin
and that kinship with everythingand how it goes beyond human to
human or family, like that'sjust that's kind of what I took
out of learning permaculture ina way, was that relationship and
everything has a role togetherand functions as a role together
(16:37):
and functions.
It's not necessarilycompetition.
It might be well you competewith your little brother for
more cookies, but you're stillsupporting each other.
It's still part of the family,right.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Well, Steve, tell me a little bit about how you came
into this work.
You've mentioned permacultureand some of your other
experiences.
What brought you here and wheredoes your passion come from?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, I grew up with a family of travelers and they
encouraged my parents,encouraged us to go travel and
discover ourselves before wecommitted to some kind of
profession or study.
And then I was always lookingfor volunteer opportunities but
none of it really made senseuntil I discovered that word,
permaculture, and then I addedthat on to searching for things
(17:18):
and then I discovered all thesedifferent projects around the
world just trying to make moresense of how we live on the land
and live with the land, and somuch of that is rooted in
indigenous ways of being andliving with the land.
So it kind of naturally broughtme to learn from different
indigenous cultures, like inVietnam and Thailand and then
over in Kenya, and I'd alwaysthought if I returned to Canada
(17:42):
it would be great, if I could,you know, somehow work with
First Nations there.
I wasn't very connected growingup, had a little bit of a
connection with some of my mom'sfriends, but not too much.
So then when I came back Istarted my little landscaping
company and just got called outto Muskeg and everything fell
into place a lot quicker than Iwould imagine.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And you've been there since 2017.
And that relationship seems tobe going well.
Is this something that you know?
Like?
You're starting projects thatare long term.
Like you said with this foodforest, it's not just a one or
two year project.
It's something that you'relaying the foundation for for
years to come.
What are your hopes?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well, I mean, when I came, I guess it was the same as
working internationally.
The hope was to work myself outof a job and kind of build
capacity up locally, Not to saythat I would want to leave.
It's a project for thecommunity by the community, so I
don't envision that I wouldnecessarily be the one forever.
And we did, just as of lastyear, found a really amazing
(18:41):
food security coordinator who'sa mother here within the
community and has experiencedpermaculture but also other
skills that come in handy whenrunning a department, like
computer skills and spreadsheetsand all that.
So very excited to see howthat's going to go.
And it allows me to branch intomore of the kind of climate
change work, because that's sobroad, even just from an
(19:16):
economic development standpoint,like what kind of businesses
and economies are going to besky comes in, because it is.
It is about agriculture, aboutgrowing food, but also, like our
land lease agreements, becausemost of our land is leased out
by farmers from off the reserve.
So what kind of controls can weput in place if we learn all
this information from the bridgeto land, water, sky, about how
(19:38):
we can not necessarily farm allthe marginal lands, increase
biodiversity, increase habitatfor wild meat which is food
security, increase wild berryproduction, which is food
security, and Still, you know,generate revenue from the farms,
protect the waters more?
That kind of that kind of realmreally interests me, so that's
kind of where I'm hoping tobranch into.
(19:59):
Kind of realm really interestsme, so that's kind of where I'm
hoping to branch into.
Maybe we can start growing thematerials to build our own homes
, store the carbon in our houses, things like that.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Right, right.
Well, there's so much potential, right?
It's so many challenges and howwe address them.
Tell me a bit about how thefood forest fits into the bigger
picture when it comes toIndigenous food security for
Muskeg Lake.
You know climate change willimpact food security, food
sovereignty, for many of ourcommunities.
(20:26):
How does this fit into thatbigger picture?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
For one.
I guess it is just like a hubwhere there'll be a lot of food
produced.
Like I did, a low estimate ifour apple trees survive, I think
we'll be having 20 tons ofapples coming out of there.
So there is just a lot of foodthat will be grown there.
As with the expansion ofagriculture over the past while
I imagine it's similar in manyFirst Nations More agriculture
(20:50):
means less traditional foodsources.
So I guess in a way we'remaking up for what has been
destroyed.
If there's less fruit in nature,then we can try to put it in a
place where we can actuallyguarantee we can invest it and
make sure it grows, Whereas ifit's out wild we might not have
as much influence based on ifthe climate changes too much or
(21:10):
too much drought or some otherimpacts.
So it is kind of a base.
Then again, that reconnectionto land like there's been.
There's been some policies putin place on indigenous people,
from the indian act toresidential schools, and that
have kind of taken some of thattraditional knowledge from being
commonplace to not ascommonplace.
So a place like the food forestand this department can kind of
(21:33):
help get, like harry says, helpreconnect people with the land
and rebuild those uh pastimesthat allowed for resilience and
a connection with the land.
And rebuild those past timesthat allowed for resilience and
a connection with the land andbeing with your family, being
outside, getting off the screen.
You know it's all tied intowellness.
Maybe it might not sound so funtending the garden but you know
we hope to make it moreenjoyable and something people
(21:55):
actually want to get back intoRight.
Momentum is growing.
We're getting more and morerequests to start gardens at
home and help out at the foodforest.
People want to learn.
Families want to learn Right.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Well, when you talk about health and wellness, it's
just one of those things.
When you're growing your ownfood or you're gathering your
own food, it's not just that thefood has those nutrients in
them, but it's in the act ofgathering them that creates that
wellness as well.
It's not just vitamins andminerals, although that's
important, you know, it's thatcommunity connection.
It's the soil again, gettingthat under your fingernails and
getting your hands in the dirt.
(22:28):
It's the satisfaction ofgrowing something local and
being able to see it through itswhole cycle, you know, and
appreciating even our teachingswhen it comes to the plant
nations and our animal relativesand how we're all so
interdependent.
And so I love hearing aboutthis project and the work of the
food forest, but also thelarger work of Bridge to Land,
(22:49):
Water, Sky, because it taps intoso many of these interconnected
issues that are so importanttoday.
So I just love hearing aboutthis everything that you've
shared with us.
So I just love hearing aboutthis everything that you've
shared with us.
I do want to go back a littlebit to the food forest,
specifically about some of thechallenges.
You did address a lot of them,but are there any specific
challenges that you had toovercome over the last several
(23:12):
years in establishing it.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, the biggest challenge is the ability to plan
long term and realizing thatthe most successful way to
implement food security is byworking with so many different
departments and programs.
And it's just a challenge Likethere's a lot of avenues for
funding through the healthdepartment and a lot of great
(23:34):
work like prenatal care,diabetes.
You know there's just so manygood ways that you could apply
food to help, but it's just,it's a lot of organization.
It's not just being out theregrowing the food.
Another big, big one would beprocessing, storage,
distribution.
Even though we have arelatively small community, it's
like how do you get the newsout there, what's ready when
(23:55):
it's ready, and if you don'thave enough for everyone, then
how does it?
You know, how do you fairlydistribute?
That's been a really bigchallenge.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
And how much?
How much food are you producing?
You mentioned, you know, 20tons of apples and you mentioned
a variety of different fruitsand foods that you're growing.
Is that increasing year overyear?
How much are you seeing, and isit something that can feed the
community to a certain extent?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, the fruit is finally starting to produce.
Two years ago we had like 130pounds of apples, and then last
year wasn't as much, which isfine.
Sometimes they take a break andthen this year we got around
200 or 300 pounds.
I can't remember that, I don'tactually have the numbers in
front of me.
But cherries we got our firstbig harvest this year.
(24:40):
Grapes our first big harvestthis year, so it was really
exciting.
Plants that take a while to getstable and you should not
harvest all your fruit once youfirst plant them.
That's a tip for people outthere.
You want to let their energy gointo the roots.
So even though you get excitedthose first years when the
apples come off, you should pickthem off when they're young, so
the tree puts its energy intothe roots and not into the fruit
(25:01):
before it's ready I didn't knowthat.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
That is a really good point.
I can imagine how exciting itwould be.
We left a couple.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I'm not gonna lie it was nice to see those apples
hanging off the tree.
But, um, our vegetable gardens,we've kind of shuffled around
locations for them and we neverreally had a big enough area to
get really close to foodsecurity.
So we kind of used ourvegetable produce in different
ways, like through the school orthrough I'll actually a lot
have gone to funerals to helpwith their meals for their
(25:31):
families when they come forwakes and just different
community programming, somelittle deliveries to elders.
But we've never, yeah, had ahuge enough area.
I mean a couple thousand poundsof potatoes, a few hundred
pounds of carrots, that kind ofyield.
But where we've got plans toexpand, we finally nailed down a
larger field that we can moveinto.
So we're gonna work on fixingup that soil, because it was
(25:55):
another farm field before, andthen move into there and get a
whole bunch more productiongoing right, I guess we've also
started some indoor growing.
We have aeroponics system.
Now we're just getting startedwith a thousand plants indoors
that'll go 365 days a year, sothat's pretty exciting wow,
that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And then you'll have all of this experience now and
knowledge to apply as you expandthe food forest and get that
plot of land ready.
I imagine.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And then Shayla having that full-time position
throughout the year.
This will be the first timehaving that full-time support.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
One thing I was curious about.
You mentioned about preservingand storage of food and sharing
the amounts that you are growingin the food forest when you're
distributing it, what'shappening right now?
When it comes time to harvest,is most of it being distributed
or is there a combination ofdistribution plus preserving
longer term?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Combination yeah, we have some community events in
the fall, so when we knowthere's a bunch of people coming
out we can get rid of a lot ofpotatoes and things like that.
Or when we have the elders'meetings, we'll maybe try to put
some of the fresh peas or beanson the table.
And what we can't get rid ofright away, we would process,
freeze, do something like that.
So we still have a lot of likeapples and rhubarb and different
(27:10):
frozen fruit to make pies anddifferent desserts.
But yeah, it's getting theseagain.
So all these different groups,they might do baking.
Do they know we've got theseapples there?
How do we keep thiscommunication up with all the
different organizations orlittle groups around muskeg lake
.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Right, you must be tired and busy.
It sounds like there's a lot ofwork with like, the planning,
the planting, um you know, thetending to it, the harvesting,
preserving, plus connecting withdifferent department areas,
community members and leadershipto coordinate all of this.
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, and I guess it's kind of new for everyone
too Like there's no one I couldjust ask and say how should we
do this Right?
We're kind of developing it aswe go, so yeah it can be a lot.
And then when you're trying toget funding from different
avenues too.
So my job is expanded as youfind oh a tree planting grant,
oh a wildfire proposal.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, right, yes is there anything that you wish you
had known, um, before starting?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
that would have made a difference yeah, again the
kind of the a bit more work orfocus on the long-term goals,
like even like that one, two,five, ten years, so you actually
a little more of like concreteactions to work towards, that
would be.
That would have been nice fromthe start.
We're still getting there and Irecognize how it's not easy,
(28:36):
especially if you say, hey,we're gonna have 20 tons of
apples, we need a building forit so, and they don't have one.
You know it's not easy,especially if you say, hey,
we're gonna have 20 tons ofapples, we need a building for
it so, and they don't have one.
You know it's uh right so yeah,surprise, yeah right um a bit
more on, like the local dietsand what people necessarily want
to eat all the time can growall the food, but if there's not
necessarily a demand for thatkind of food then it's harder to
(28:59):
get into people's bellies andcoming in.
I guess I'm not Indigenous.
I'd never worked for a FirstNation, so for me I was kind of
learning the structure of theband and all these different
departments and avenues as I wasgoing along, so having clearer.
But I recognize it's fluid andso much is based on funding and
things change all the as well.
(29:20):
So wonderful.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Well, it's a lot, it's a, it's a huge challenge,
and you've shared a lot of thechallenges.
What are what are the successes?
What are the things you're mostproud of or that you celebrate
the most?
With a food forest.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
A lot is to do with just the awareness of it.
Like we had 300 students comethrough visiting and some of
them did work, some just camefor tours, some helped us make
compost, some looked at soilpits and learned about soil,
some learned about water life inthe water.
So that outreach to different,not just our community but
surrounding communities andbringing in non-Indigenous kids
(29:55):
that have never been on areserve is pretty wonderful.
Non-indigenous kids that havenever been on a reserve is
pretty wonderful, integratingthese two worlds that live right
next to each other but in thepast sometimes not been so
integrated.
So that's really nice.
And then collaborations likewith University of Saskatchewan
and SAS Polytechnic and RedberryLake and all these different
NGOs and nonprofits gettingtheir support in these different
(30:18):
events we have or differentideas about how we can expand
into the future.
It's all really exciting.
It kind of feels likegroundbreaking stuff, even
though it's also kind of back tobasics at the same time.
But going to these differentconferences, meeting other
communities, I'm getting to knowall the other nations around
and their people.
They have doing similar workand we have a tight little team
(30:39):
of planning together, getting toknow all the other nations
around and their people.
They have doing similar workand we have a little tight
little team of planning togetherand seeing what other nations
are trying out this year.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
That's really nice to see the the momentum spreading
around further too and are younoticing a growing um kind of
awareness and interest andmovement towards becoming food
sovereign, to to thinking aboutfood security and these types of
projects for communities?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
definitely, definitely, yes.
I think just the hard thing isthat balance of like people were
food secure by hard work in thepast.
So to create something that'sjust the nation growing a bunch
of food it's like that's justthe nation growing a bunch of
food that's not the direction.
So how do you encouragecommunity engagement and get
people excited about it andenjoying it and having fun with
(31:28):
it, connecting over it, thatkind of rejuvenation that many
from an older generation wouldremember from the past, and I
think that's a big, big part ofit.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, well, that whole community's.
What Muskeg Lake has is thatthere is a vision there that
(32:05):
there is a desire to see thisfit into larger food security
initiatives and you've got thework of Bridge to Land Water Sky
as well, and it fits into thatgoal of food sovereignty.
It sounds like that would be anecessary component in order to
successfully establish a foodforest or a similar type project
in a community.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
And, like the hunters , don't have to come and pick
the fruit.
They can, you know, give us themeat for the meal too right.
So, there's a role for everyone.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Well, that's the best is when you can do barters and
exchanges.
You know a roast for some honey, or a bag of berries, or you
know whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
People are growing we have had communities like from
further north come down to visitand ask about starting food for
us there and I I didn't say no,you shouldn't, but I said it
might be more difficult, youmight have slower growth, you
might have lower yields, but hey, you guys have lots of fish and
we might have way too manyapples.
Maybe you know there's, yeah,barters trades, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
And those relationships again right, and I
mean and that goes back to alot of our old, like trade
relationships, when you look atIndigenous history and
communities, how we would havean abundance of one and go and
trade with other nations forwhat they were abundant in and
that what we didn't have.
And it seems like through thiswork there is a resurgence of
that, or at least thinking alongthose lines, if you have a lot
(33:25):
of fish.
We have a lot of apples.
Let's build this traderelationship.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, maybe we might have a food truck going around
the powwow circuit in a fewyears.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That would be wonderful.
That would be wonderful.
I think there's a lot of peoplewanting more, you know, healthy
options there as well.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, there is, yeah .
Speaker 1 (33:43):
For sure.
Is there any advice, Steve, youwould give to people and
communities that are thinking ofstarting a food forest that
they could learn from your?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
project at Muskeg Lake.
I mean you've given a lotalready, but I would say, come
and see it.
We're trying to think of waysto create tour days or field
days for communities to come see, because there's just so much
as you walk around there's somany little tidbits.
One of the biggest challengesif you're planning to start it
you've got creeping grasses likebrome grass.
That would make for a verychallenging site to start a food
(34:19):
forest on.
So if you could avoid that, I'dreally recommend it.
We even brought some in, justwith some wood chips we got for
mulch, and there was roots inthere and it's oh no, oh no,
yeah, uh, yeah, trying to tamethose weeds, getting a ground
cover going, it's kind of like.
So if there's like a healthywell, even if you're not sure of
(34:42):
all the ground cover mixes, butjust imagine a nice healthy,
long growing everywhere thenwhen you want to cut it out, put
in a garden, it's pretty easy.
You just kind of remove it andstart plant your tree or plant
your garden, whereas if it's awhole bunch of weeds and a whole
bunch of invasive kind ofplants and you're just trying to
do your thing in there, they'regonna win.
Um hands down, they're gonnawin.
(35:03):
So kind of.
I don't like the word tame, buttrying to tame the land a
little bit before you get somotivated to plant.
It's a lot easier to maintainand manage an open field than it
is with a whole bunch of treesscattered around it.
So if it means delaying theplanting by a year, spending a
whole year to work on that landand that soil first could be
(35:26):
really worth it.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Thank you so much for all of this.
Is there anything I haven'tasked you that you feel is
important or that you'd like toshare?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
I'd like you to talk to our new coordinator, Shaylin
McKay, for the next interview,because this has kind of been
about the past and how we gotthere, but I'm really excited to
see where she takes thisprogram well, there's so much
potential here.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm excited to speak with her as well, so that'd be
fantastic.
Thank you so much foreverything you've shared here,
uh, this afternoon, and uh, foreverything that, um, you know
all the the wins and thechallenges, um, and the vision.
Uh, I appreciate everythingyou've shared with us today.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
For sure it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Thanks, Steve.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
This is the Bridging Relations podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time.
Funding for this project hasbeen provided by Agriculture and
Agri-Food Canada through theAgricultural Climate Solutions
Living Labs program.
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast.
I'm your host, michelle Brass.
Here we dive into diverseperspectives on agriculture and
land management, blendingWestern science and farmer
expertise with Indigenousknowledge and wisdom.
Together, we can addresschallenges and opportunities
that enhance agriculturalpractices to support healthy
(00:29):
land, water and sky for futuregenerations.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey.
On today's episode, we're goingto be learning about the Muskeg
Lake Cree Nation's food forest.
We'll learn more about how itstarted, some of the challenges
faced along the way and whatothers can learn from their
experience.
Steve Wigg is a Food Securityand Climate Change Adaptation
(00:53):
Manager for Muskeg Lake CreeNation.
He's been working for thecommunity since 2017, and he
took the lead role in creatingthe food forest.
He's also the Muskeg Lakecoordinator for Bridge to Land,
water, sky, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Steve, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Michelle, good to behere.
So what is a food forest?
Food forest is the idea oftrying to integrate more food
into how a forest naturallygrows.
So instead of having rows ofsingle species trees or shrubs
producing fruit, you wouldintegrate it with more layers
and more biodiversity, so youmight have a ground cover layer,
even some roots, vines climbingup the trees, different shrubs
(01:33):
and even canopy trees, and youmight have more biodiversity in
warmer climates.
So ours here consists mostly ofapples for the canopy and some
pears we plan to put in, and wehave cherries for the shrubs,
hascaps, blueberries, saskatoons, and then we have grapes
growing up the fences and aroundour gazebos and different root
(01:53):
crops.
We're trying to get integratedas well.
So, yeah, trying to get all thedifferent layers that a natural
forest would have.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh wow.
So why did Muskeg Lake want tocreate a food forest in their
community?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, canadian Feed the Children was actually
funding with some money for foodsecurity.
Glenna Cayenne is a residentfrom Muskeg Lake.
She was coordinating threedifferent First Nation
communities on food security andthen they had a one-week-long
training program and I wasbrought in to talk about food
forests and permaculture, talkabout food forests and
(02:26):
permaculture, and by the end ofit Glenna said I want that let's
do something long term that'lllast, not just short cooking
classes and things like that.
Let's make something that'lllast into the future.
And so we went ahead with it.
We did a bit of a design, gotsome input from the community
and what kind of things to addinto it, because it doesn't have
to be just food productions whoalso became a kind of a
community space vision toreconnect people to the land.
As Harry LaFond likes to sayand it is really true Get the
(02:48):
kids out of the classroom intoanother space.
Yeah, reconnecting with theearth.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh, that's awesome.
I love that and it fits reallywell with one of the goals for
Bridge to Land Water Sky, whichis increasing food security and
sovereignty in local communities.
Why do you think that that issuch an important issue today?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting.
I mean, we're in the breadbasketof the world and you could say
we were food secure a handful ofdecades ago and then somehow
now we're not.
And the pandemic reallyhighlighted a lot of, I guess,
weaknesses in our global supplychains and the awareness is kind
of resurfacing that, yes, wecan still grow a lot of
(03:26):
commodity crops, we can stillhave a large agriculture
industry, but why not dedicatesome of the land and some of our
resources to creating foodsecurity closer to home, kind of
bringing back some of the wayswe use to do things, but maybe
with a bit more, bit morescience and awareness of caring
for the earth, combined withlocal food production, which
also fits with the Cree cultureof.
(03:47):
You know we are one with theearth, the soil, all the animals
.
We're all kind of family, so weshould take care of each other
and, yeah, this kind of fitsinto that works really well.
So if we have thousands ofacres of land, what's a few
acres to provide food for thecommunity and become less
reliant on the outside sources?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well and I imagine it fits in well with your role as
climate change adaptationcoordinator as well with looking
at the changes that we'reseeing when it comes to the
lands, the waters, foodproduction.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, the climate change coordinator kind of grew
out of the food security,because so much of the funding
is really tied together in a lotof the avenues, especially even
bridges into health, and it'skind of all over the place.
Now, as we realize, it willimpact every bit of our life and
food is a part of every aspectof our life, so it all really is
(04:35):
interconnected.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So when you were talking to Muskeg Lake about
this and you told me aboutGlenacan from Canadian Feed the
Children about this project, wasit difficult to get the idea
going or was this quite smooth?
There's a lot of communitiesthat might look at different
projects food sovereigntyprojects and sometimes not
everyone's always on board.
What was it like in thisparticular scenario?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, muskeg Lake, I mean the leadership overall has
been extremely supportive of theidea.
They see the importance of itand I think it was really
helpful, like our first plantingday.
We had like four differentschools show up and it was like
quite a great community eventand that was.
I mean, if the goal itself wasstrictly food alone, there might
(05:18):
be a more practical approach atleast for, like, immediate food
.
But this is a long-termcommitment.
So it's been nice to see, evengoing through elections and
still the commitment to keep itgoing has remained, because they
see the growth.
Yeah, and it did take some time.
You know, the first year itused to be a farm field, so
keeping the weeds down and thenit just looked like a bunch of
(05:39):
little sticks coming out of theground, you know, a foot or two
feet tall.
It did take a few years for itto kind of soak into people's
minds what the actual potentialis going to be.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Well, tell us how it started then.
How does one start a foodforest?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, it definitely depends on where you live.
So, speaking from the AspenParkland transition zone, we're
kind of just about into theboreal but we're also a bit
above the prairie, so it is kindof applicable to a lot of areas
in Saskatchewan.
But definitely observe the landfirst.
(06:13):
Try to find out what it wasused for in the past, if it had
been farmed on.
Converting farmland likemarginal farmland would be a
really good option.
If you're going into morenatural land, then of course you
got to consider more of thewild competition, the friends
that are going to be going afteryour nice little trees you
plant.
So, yeah, just knowing the landand the features of the land,
(06:35):
what kind of wildlife you'llhave to protect your trees from
the kind of conditions.
Sometimes we get really reallycold, windy winters here and not
all trees really want to be outin the middle of the cold,
windy prairies all winter long.
So, yeah, just knowing the land, knowing the history, finding
out the soil type, becausedepending on the soil might
(06:57):
influence what kind of trees youplant or at least how you plant
them, the kind of wateringneeds you'll need over time, and
then, yeah, weeds of course,like ours was on an old farm
field.
So as soon as those herbicidesstop getting applied, there's,
you know, generations of seedswaiting to emerge, so you got to
have a plan to deal with them.
If you're going organic, andeven if you're not, I mean
(07:18):
they're going to come backeventually, unless you want to
keep applying.
So ground cover figuring out aground cover is something I wish
we would have done sooner on,but once we got that established
, it took a couple years becausewe started in a really dry year
, I think 2020 or 21.
But once that got established,it choked out pretty much all
the weeds, so we just have theodd thistle coming up here and
(07:40):
there, but that made it a lotmore comfortable to work and
bring people in when they're notgetting stabbed by thistles all
the time.
And start small would beanother one.
Like, you can always expand butstart small, especially if you
don't know what kind of fundingyou're working with or the human
capacity you have.
Like it's great to have thebiggest vision and all these
(08:01):
ideas, but just make sure yougot the people that can really
make it happen and the fundingtoday for them.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Well and tell us about the funding.
So, for those who areinterested or hearing this and
think it would be great fortheir community, tell us about
the funding process and how thatworked for you.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, well, canadian Feed the Children has been the
main supporter before I came andI started 2017.
So they've been a reallyreliable source and it doesn't
cover anything by any means, butit definitely gets us like our
main supplies that we need,helps us run a few events and
can, with subsidies fromagriculture, agri-food, canada,
it'll help cover some staff aswell.
(08:35):
But those subsidies from aafcuh, really important.
Yes, youth employment skillsprogram you can only use them
for one year because the idea isyou give them agriculture
experience and they move on todo more, which is also nice.
We've had two of our employeesmove on to study agriculture or
land management.
(08:57):
Then there's other, yeah,funding from the federal
government.
But I really do encourage, ifany nation takes it on, to
commit some form of steadyfunding to make sure that the
staff can do the work and keepthings going without stressing
about the next source, becausethat's very hard to develop.
There's so many avenues and somany ways to go and you need
consistency.
(09:17):
You can't wait for the funds tocome in when your planting
dates are very specific andharvests are very specific.
So I do encourage any nation ifanyone's listening that at
least dedicate some funds forconsistent staff at the very
least Once things get going, theinitial planting it's not a lot
(09:38):
of financial input to just keepthings sustained.
But then, once you get a lot ofproduce, you're going to need
storage and processing.
So that's something you have toconsider for five to 10 years
down the line where you'reactually going to deal with all
this food, how you're going toprocess it.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right, so tell me a bit about starting it.
You said like in the first yearit was just a few.
You know it looked like a fewsticks in the ground.
How much planning went into?
Was it planned out ahead oftime or once you got the funding
in place, kind of like, saw howmuch you had and then planted
and pivoted?
Tell me a bit about how muchlike was planned out ahead of
(10:19):
time, before planting.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
There was a reasonable amount of planning
done ahead of time.
However, the field was justconverted.
So the year before, like when Iwas first on site, it wasn't
farmed and I, literally, onetime I came, the weeds were like
up to my chest.
It was pretty incredible.
So it was like, yes, I could gothere, yes, I could stick the
shovel in the ground and youknow, see that there was
(10:44):
different kinds of soil and Iwas able to talk to some of the
like, the previous farmer of thesite and some people that knew
some of the history, so that didhelp.
So then, once we got it cleaneddown, I spent some time trying
to consider the slope anddifferent aspects of it, but in
reality the funding determinedthe trees we got, and the trees
were all purchased from a localnursery that was closing down
(11:05):
that year.
So what we put in was, you know, what we got for the money.
So, yes, some planning and yes,like, considerations of
sunlight and aspect, because youdon't want to crowd trees too
much, but not as much as I wouldhave liked, for sure, but it's
all working out right?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
that's why I ask, because it's, it seems, like one
of those projects where youplan as much as you can, but
then things come up and youadapt as you go.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
For sure, and I mean not knowing like the long term
desires of the community in thespace.
Those kind of evolved too,because maybe no one's ever had
a space like that where youintegrate like a living park
that's also food producing, withcommunity events.
So how do you, you know, keepthe quality control of the food
while still having kids runaround and play games and come
(11:51):
out for school groups?
If I could say anything in theend like it is great, I think
it's perfect what we've done,but it will cause challenges
down the line for like sellingproduce, like quality control
measures, because it's sointegrated.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Right, and tell me about that.
Like the vision for thecommunity, it wasn't just
planting just for foodproduction.
It sounds like there was a lotto do with relationships to the
land a place to gather childrenrunning amongst the food forest?
Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, and that's been like some of the best successes
really.
The trees have survived for themost part, we haven't had much
kill.
And then the students coming in.
We try to integrate with ourlocal school which is grade 1 to
7, as much as possible.
The kids come in the spring tohelp with the seeding and then
the fall to help with harvest.
And then we work with otherprogramming through prevention
(12:41):
department, boys' group, girls'group, things like like that and
get them out as much aspossible.
And then community events we'vehad we host our own.
We try to do a spring and afall one at least, and then
other departments or groups inthe community will use it.
Like we have barbecue and likean outdoor kitchen space there
in a gazebo.
So they're just last year theystarted to and I loved it.
(13:02):
I got the call.
Like Steve, we just want tohave Father's Day barbecue in
the food forest.
I'm like, go for it.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Oh, wonderful.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
It's not just on us now.
Others are starting to realizethey can use the space, and that
is a wonderful thing.
But there is, I guess, anothersafety concern just how public
can you make it and how can youkeep?
You know, it's just like anypark, any system there's risks
of things happening.
So that's a learning curve aswe develop too.
(13:30):
Do we keep it open during theday or do we lock it at night?
But we want it to be a publicspace, and that would be
different for every communityand where it's located.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Right, so, and I imagine that's evolving over
time since the beginning.
So what makes a food forestdifferent from, say, just just a
garden like?
Just like you said you talked abit about at the very beginning
?
It's more than just a row of oftrees or items that you plant.
It sounds like there's a verypurposeful kind of relationship
(13:59):
building, or you're trying to,are you trying to, mimic, like
the ecosystem of an actualforest that naturally grows?
Explain that a bit more thatwould be the ideal.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Um, it is a bit more challenging in our zone or our
uh environment versus, like Ifirst got introduced to
permaculture in the tropics.
There's a lot more layers, alot more faster growth.
So, um, there is comparisons.
But, like you couldn't grow areally thriving apple tree in
the middle of a really denseforest, it might not get enough
(14:31):
sunlight, so you do have to makesome changes, I guess, to what
a natural ecosystem would looklike, but the goals would still
be similar, like you're tryingto get as much biodiversity as
possible, because a pest mightbe a pest, but it's also a food
to something else that'sbeneficial.
And if you can facilitate thenatural balance, then you
shouldn't need to apply allkinds of herbicides and
(14:53):
pesticides, and then that's also, I guess, the fertilizer.
Like the natural cycling ofnutrients.
You know, trees drop theirleaves, animals drop their
droppings and there's cyclesthat happen in nature that allow
for the nutrients to be takenin by the plants.
And actually that is one pointto consider is, sometimes these
systems are not as tidy as somewould like or what they expect
(15:14):
from a park, and so that is abit of a learning curve, like we
grow the ground cover, but it'sto.
It's to suppress the weeds, butit's also to fertilize, like
there's clover in.
So they're adding nitrogen tothe soil but we don't want to
chop it down right away.
There's all these pollinators,so we're letting it grow big and
it's not the nicest to walk onin a park kind of setting.
So there is a bit of a balancebetween creating more of a
(15:35):
natural system and one thatpeople can run around and enjoy
with their bare feet.
Treating the soil really wellis one of the main features of
it protecting that soil, nottilling it up like in a garden,
exposing it to the sun and theerosion, but trying to protect
it and encourage life in thesoil as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, and that's been a theme from a lot of the
guests that we've talked to onthis podcast already is the
importance of soil and thatrelationship and how to build
healthy soil and all thecomponents that go into that
right.
It's more than just one thing.
It's many differentrelationships and really
building the right environment,which depends on your local
(16:14):
environment.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's what's fun.
Like I'm not Cree, I'm settlerdescendant.
But when I first was told ortaught the term, like Wakotuin
and that kinship with everythingand how it goes beyond human to
human or family, like that'sjust that's kind of what I took
out of learning permaculture ina way, was that relationship and
everything has a role togetherand functions as a role together
(16:37):
and functions.
It's not necessarilycompetition.
It might be well you competewith your little brother for
more cookies, but you're stillsupporting each other.
It's still part of the family,right.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Well, Steve, tell me a little bit about how you came
into this work.
You've mentioned permacultureand some of your other
experiences.
What brought you here and wheredoes your passion come from?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, I grew up with a family of travelers and they
encouraged my parents,encouraged us to go travel and
discover ourselves before wecommitted to some kind of
profession or study.
And then I was always lookingfor volunteer opportunities but
none of it really made senseuntil I discovered that word,
permaculture, and then I addedthat on to searching for things
(17:18):
and then I discovered all thesedifferent projects around the
world just trying to make moresense of how we live on the land
and live with the land, and somuch of that is rooted in
indigenous ways of being andliving with the land.
So it kind of naturally broughtme to learn from different
indigenous cultures, like inVietnam and Thailand and then
over in Kenya, and I'd alwaysthought if I returned to Canada
(17:42):
it would be great, if I could,you know, somehow work with
First Nations there.
I wasn't very connected growingup, had a little bit of a
connection with some of my mom'sfriends, but not too much.
So then when I came back Istarted my little landscaping
company and just got called outto Muskeg and everything fell
into place a lot quicker than Iwould imagine.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And you've been there since 2017.
And that relationship seems tobe going well.
Is this something that you know?
Like?
You're starting projects thatare long term.
Like you said with this foodforest, it's not just a one or
two year project.
It's something that you'relaying the foundation for for
years to come.
What are your hopes?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well, I mean, when I came, I guess it was the same as
working internationally.
The hope was to work myself outof a job and kind of build
capacity up locally, Not to saythat I would want to leave.
It's a project for thecommunity by the community, so I
don't envision that I wouldnecessarily be the one forever.
And we did, just as of lastyear, found a really amazing
(18:41):
food security coordinator who'sa mother here within the
community and has experiencedpermaculture but also other
skills that come in handy whenrunning a department, like
computer skills and spreadsheetsand all that.
So very excited to see howthat's going to go.
And it allows me to branch intomore of the kind of climate
change work, because that's sobroad, even just from an
(19:16):
economic development standpoint,like what kind of businesses
and economies are going to besky comes in, because it is.
It is about agriculture, aboutgrowing food, but also, like our
land lease agreements, becausemost of our land is leased out
by farmers from off the reserve.
So what kind of controls can weput in place if we learn all
this information from the bridgeto land, water, sky, about how
(19:38):
we can not necessarily farm allthe marginal lands, increase
biodiversity, increase habitatfor wild meat which is food
security, increase wild berryproduction, which is food
security, and Still, you know,generate revenue from the farms,
protect the waters more?
That kind of that kind of realmreally interests me, so that's
kind of where I'm hoping tobranch into.
(19:59):
Kind of realm really interestsme, so that's kind of where I'm
hoping to branch into.
Maybe we can start growing thematerials to build our own homes
, store the carbon in our houses, things like that.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Right, right.
Well, there's so much potential, right?
It's so many challenges and howwe address them.
Tell me a bit about how thefood forest fits into the bigger
picture when it comes toIndigenous food security for
Muskeg Lake.
You know climate change willimpact food security, food
sovereignty, for many of ourcommunities.
(20:26):
How does this fit into thatbigger picture?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
For one.
I guess it is just like a hubwhere there'll be a lot of food
produced.
Like I did, a low estimate ifour apple trees survive, I think
we'll be having 20 tons ofapples coming out of there.
So there is just a lot of foodthat will be grown there.
As with the expansion ofagriculture over the past while
I imagine it's similar in manyFirst Nations More agriculture
(20:50):
means less traditional foodsources.
So I guess in a way we'remaking up for what has been
destroyed.
If there's less fruit in nature,then we can try to put it in a
place where we can actuallyguarantee we can invest it and
make sure it grows, Whereas ifit's out wild we might not have
as much influence based on ifthe climate changes too much or
(21:10):
too much drought or some otherimpacts.
So it is kind of a base.
Then again, that reconnectionto land like there's been.
There's been some policies putin place on indigenous people,
from the indian act toresidential schools, and that
have kind of taken some of thattraditional knowledge from being
commonplace to not ascommonplace.
So a place like the food forestand this department can kind of
(21:33):
help get, like harry says, helpreconnect people with the land
and rebuild those uh pastimesthat allowed for resilience and
a connection with the land.
And rebuild those past timesthat allowed for resilience and
a connection with the land andbeing with your family, being
outside, getting off the screen.
You know it's all tied intowellness.
Maybe it might not sound so funtending the garden but you know
we hope to make it moreenjoyable and something people
(21:55):
actually want to get back intoRight.
Momentum is growing.
We're getting more and morerequests to start gardens at
home and help out at the foodforest.
People want to learn.
Families want to learn Right.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Well, when you talk about health and wellness, it's
just one of those things.
When you're growing your ownfood or you're gathering your
own food, it's not just that thefood has those nutrients in
them, but it's in the act ofgathering them that creates that
wellness as well.
It's not just vitamins andminerals, although that's
important, you know, it's thatcommunity connection.
It's the soil again, gettingthat under your fingernails and
getting your hands in the dirt.
(22:28):
It's the satisfaction ofgrowing something local and
being able to see it through itswhole cycle, you know, and
appreciating even our teachingswhen it comes to the plant
nations and our animal relativesand how we're all so
interdependent.
And so I love hearing aboutthis project and the work of the
food forest, but also thelarger work of Bridge to Land,
(22:49):
Water, Sky, because it taps intoso many of these interconnected
issues that are so importanttoday.
So I just love hearing aboutthis everything that you've
shared with us.
So I just love hearing aboutthis everything that you've
shared with us.
I do want to go back a littlebit to the food forest,
specifically about some of thechallenges.
You did address a lot of them,but are there any specific
challenges that you had toovercome over the last several
(23:12):
years in establishing it.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, the biggest challenge is the ability to plan
long term and realizing thatthe most successful way to
implement food security is byworking with so many different
departments and programs.
And it's just a challenge Likethere's a lot of avenues for
funding through the healthdepartment and a lot of great
(23:34):
work like prenatal care,diabetes.
You know there's just so manygood ways that you could apply
food to help, but it's just,it's a lot of organization.
It's not just being out theregrowing the food.
Another big, big one would beprocessing, storage,
distribution.
Even though we have arelatively small community, it's
like how do you get the newsout there, what's ready when
(23:55):
it's ready, and if you don'thave enough for everyone, then
how does it?
You know, how do you fairlydistribute?
That's been a really bigchallenge.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
And how much?
How much food are you producing?
You mentioned, you know, 20tons of apples and you mentioned
a variety of different fruitsand foods that you're growing.
Is that increasing year overyear?
How much are you seeing, and isit something that can feed the
community to a certain extent?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, the fruit is finally starting to produce.
Two years ago we had like 130pounds of apples, and then last
year wasn't as much, which isfine.
Sometimes they take a break andthen this year we got around
200 or 300 pounds.
I can't remember that, I don'tactually have the numbers in
front of me.
But cherries we got our firstbig harvest this year.
(24:40):
Grapes our first big harvestthis year, so it was really
exciting.
Plants that take a while to getstable and you should not
harvest all your fruit once youfirst plant them.
That's a tip for people outthere.
You want to let their energy gointo the roots.
So even though you get excitedthose first years when the
apples come off, you should pickthem off when they're young, so
the tree puts its energy intothe roots and not into the fruit
(25:01):
before it's ready I didn't knowthat.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
That is a really good point.
I can imagine how exciting itwould be.
We left a couple.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I'm not gonna lie it was nice to see those apples
hanging off the tree.
But, um, our vegetable gardens,we've kind of shuffled around
locations for them and we neverreally had a big enough area to
get really close to foodsecurity.
So we kind of used ourvegetable produce in different
ways, like through the school orthrough I'll actually a lot
have gone to funerals to helpwith their meals for their
(25:31):
families when they come forwakes and just different
community programming, somelittle deliveries to elders.
But we've never, yeah, had ahuge enough area.
I mean a couple thousand poundsof potatoes, a few hundred
pounds of carrots, that kind ofyield.
But where we've got plans toexpand, we finally nailed down a
larger field that we can moveinto.
So we're gonna work on fixingup that soil, because it was
(25:55):
another farm field before, andthen move into there and get a
whole bunch more productiongoing right, I guess we've also
started some indoor growing.
We have aeroponics system.
Now we're just getting startedwith a thousand plants indoors
that'll go 365 days a year, sothat's pretty exciting wow,
that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And then you'll have all of this experience now and
knowledge to apply as you expandthe food forest and get that
plot of land ready.
I imagine.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And then Shayla having that full-time position
throughout the year.
This will be the first timehaving that full-time support.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
One thing I was curious about.
You mentioned about preservingand storage of food and sharing
the amounts that you are growingin the food forest when you're
distributing it, what'shappening right now?
When it comes time to harvest,is most of it being distributed
or is there a combination ofdistribution plus preserving
longer term?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Combination yeah, we have some community events in
the fall, so when we knowthere's a bunch of people coming
out we can get rid of a lot ofpotatoes and things like that.
Or when we have the elders'meetings, we'll maybe try to put
some of the fresh peas or beanson the table.
And what we can't get rid ofright away, we would process,
freeze, do something like that.
So we still have a lot of likeapples and rhubarb and different
(27:10):
frozen fruit to make pies anddifferent desserts.
But yeah, it's getting theseagain.
So all these different groups,they might do baking.
Do they know we've got theseapples there?
How do we keep thiscommunication up with all the
different organizations orlittle groups around muskeg lake
.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Right, you must be tired and busy.
It sounds like there's a lot ofwork with like, the planning,
the planting, um you know, thetending to it, the harvesting,
preserving, plus connecting withdifferent department areas,
community members and leadershipto coordinate all of this.
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, and I guess it's kind of new for everyone
too Like there's no one I couldjust ask and say how should we
do this Right?
We're kind of developing it aswe go, so yeah it can be a lot.
And then when you're trying toget funding from different
avenues too.
So my job is expanded as youfind oh a tree planting grant,
oh a wildfire proposal.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, right, yes is there anything that you wish you
had known, um, before starting?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
that would have made a difference yeah, again the
kind of the a bit more work orfocus on the long-term goals,
like even like that one, two,five, ten years, so you actually
a little more of like concreteactions to work towards, that
would be.
That would have been nice fromthe start.
We're still getting there and Irecognize how it's not easy,
(28:36):
especially if you say, hey,we're gonna have 20 tons of
apples, we need a building forit so, and they don't have one.
You know it's not easy,especially if you say, hey,
we're gonna have 20 tons ofapples, we need a building for
it so, and they don't have one.
You know it's uh right so yeah,surprise, yeah right um a bit
more on, like the local dietsand what people necessarily want
to eat all the time can growall the food, but if there's not
necessarily a demand for thatkind of food then it's harder to
(28:59):
get into people's bellies andcoming in.
I guess I'm not Indigenous.
I'd never worked for a FirstNation, so for me I was kind of
learning the structure of theband and all these different
departments and avenues as I wasgoing along, so having clearer.
But I recognize it's fluid andso much is based on funding and
things change all the as well.
(29:20):
So wonderful.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Well, it's a lot, it's a, it's a huge challenge,
and you've shared a lot of thechallenges.
What are what are the successes?
What are the things you're mostproud of or that you celebrate
the most?
With a food forest.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
A lot is to do with just the awareness of it.
Like we had 300 students comethrough visiting and some of
them did work, some just camefor tours, some helped us make
compost, some looked at soilpits and learned about soil,
some learned about water life inthe water.
So that outreach to different,not just our community but
surrounding communities andbringing in non-Indigenous kids
(29:55):
that have never been on areserve is pretty wonderful.
Non-indigenous kids that havenever been on a reserve is
pretty wonderful, integratingthese two worlds that live right
next to each other but in thepast sometimes not been so
integrated.
So that's really nice.
And then collaborations likewith University of Saskatchewan
and SAS Polytechnic and RedberryLake and all these different
NGOs and nonprofits gettingtheir support in these different
(30:18):
events we have or differentideas about how we can expand
into the future.
It's all really exciting.
It kind of feels likegroundbreaking stuff, even
though it's also kind of back tobasics at the same time.
But going to these differentconferences, meeting other
communities, I'm getting to knowall the other nations around
and their people.
They have doing similar workand we have a tight little team
(30:39):
of planning together, getting toknow all the other nations
around and their people.
They have doing similar workand we have a little tight
little team of planning togetherand seeing what other nations
are trying out this year.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
That's really nice to see the the momentum spreading
around further too and are younoticing a growing um kind of
awareness and interest andmovement towards becoming food
sovereign, to to thinking aboutfood security and these types of
projects for communities?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
definitely, definitely, yes.
I think just the hard thing isthat balance of like people were
food secure by hard work in thepast.
So to create something that'sjust the nation growing a bunch
of food it's like that's justthe nation growing a bunch of
food that's not the direction.
So how do you encouragecommunity engagement and get
people excited about it andenjoying it and having fun with
(31:28):
it, connecting over it, thatkind of rejuvenation that many
from an older generation wouldremember from the past, and I
think that's a big, big part ofit.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, well, that whole community's.
What Muskeg Lake has is thatthere is a vision there that
(32:05):
there is a desire to see thisfit into larger food security
initiatives and you've got thework of Bridge to Land Water Sky
as well, and it fits into thatgoal of food sovereignty.
It sounds like that would be anecessary component in order to
successfully establish a foodforest or a similar type project
in a community.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
And, like the hunters , don't have to come and pick
the fruit.
They can, you know, give us themeat for the meal too right.
So, there's a role for everyone.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Well, that's the best is when you can do barters and
exchanges.
You know a roast for some honey, or a bag of berries, or you
know whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
People are growing we have had communities like from
further north come down to visitand ask about starting food for
us there and I I didn't say no,you shouldn't, but I said it
might be more difficult, youmight have slower growth, you
might have lower yields, but hey, you guys have lots of fish and
we might have way too manyapples.
Maybe you know there's, yeah,barters trades, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
And those relationships again right, and I
mean and that goes back to alot of our old, like trade
relationships, when you look atIndigenous history and
communities, how we would havean abundance of one and go and
trade with other nations forwhat they were abundant in and
that what we didn't have.
And it seems like through thiswork there is a resurgence of
that, or at least thinking alongthose lines, if you have a lot
(33:25):
of fish.
We have a lot of apples.
Let's build this traderelationship.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, maybe we might have a food truck going around
the powwow circuit in a fewyears.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That would be wonderful.
That would be wonderful.
I think there's a lot of peoplewanting more, you know, healthy
options there as well.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, there is, yeah .
Speaker 1 (33:43):
For sure.
Is there any advice, Steve, youwould give to people and
communities that are thinking ofstarting a food forest that
they could learn from your?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
project at Muskeg Lake.
I mean you've given a lotalready, but I would say, come
and see it.
We're trying to think of waysto create tour days or field
days for communities to come see, because there's just so much
as you walk around there's somany little tidbits.
One of the biggest challengesif you're planning to start it
you've got creeping grasses likebrome grass.
That would make for a verychallenging site to start a food
(34:19):
forest on.
So if you could avoid that, I'dreally recommend it.
We even brought some in, justwith some wood chips we got for
mulch, and there was roots inthere and it's oh no, oh no,
yeah, uh, yeah, trying to tamethose weeds, getting a ground
cover going, it's kind of like.
So if there's like a healthywell, even if you're not sure of
(34:42):
all the ground cover mixes, butjust imagine a nice healthy,
long growing everywhere thenwhen you want to cut it out, put
in a garden, it's pretty easy.
You just kind of remove it andstart plant your tree or plant
your garden, whereas if it's awhole bunch of weeds and a whole
bunch of invasive kind ofplants and you're just trying to
do your thing in there, they'regonna win.
Um hands down, they're gonnawin.
(35:03):
So kind of.
I don't like the word tame, buttrying to tame the land a
little bit before you get somotivated to plant.
It's a lot easier to maintainand manage an open field than it
is with a whole bunch of treesscattered around it.
So if it means delaying theplanting by a year, spending a
whole year to work on that landand that soil first could be
(35:26):
really worth it.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Thank you so much for all of this.
Is there anything I haven'tasked you that you feel is
important or that you'd like toshare?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
I'd like you to talk to our new coordinator, Shaylin
McKay, for the next interview,because this has kind of been
about the past and how we gotthere, but I'm really excited to
see where she takes thisprogram well, there's so much
potential here.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm excited to speak with her as well, so that'd be
fantastic.
Thank you so much foreverything you've shared here,
uh, this afternoon, and uh, foreverything that, um, you know
all the the wins and thechallenges, um, and the vision.
Uh, I appreciate everythingyou've shared with us today.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
For sure it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Thanks, Steve.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
This is the Bridging Relations podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time.
Funding for this project hasbeen provided by Agriculture and
Agri-Food Canada through theAgricultural Climate Solutions
Living Labs program.
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