March 31, 2025 • 42 mins
Join a powerful conversation with Harry Lafond, a respected elder from Muskeg Lake Cree Nation, as he shares the profound Cree worldview of Wâhkôhtowin—building relationships with all living things—and contrasts it with modern agricultural practices that threaten traditional food sources and ecosystems. Reflecting on cultural losses like vanished berry bushes and ecological damage, Harry offers hope through community-driven initiatives including Muskeg Lake’s food forest and the Bridge to Land Water Sky Living Lab. This dialogue bridges Indigenous knowledge and modern science, fostering collaboration and sustainable farming practices that nurture the land for generations to come.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast.
I'm your host, Michelle Brass.
Here we dive into diverseperspectives on agriculture and
land management, blendingWestern science and farmer
expertise with Indigenousknowledge and wisdom.
Together, we can addresschallenges and opportunities
that enhance agriculturalpractices to support healthy
(00:29):
land, water and sky for futuregenerations.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey.
On today's episode, we're goingto discuss the importance of
stewarding land under a Cree orNehia worldview, especially when
it comes to protecting localfood and medicinal plants.
Joining us for thisconversation is Harry Lafond.
(00:51):
He's a member of Muskeg LakeCree Nation and has devoted much
of his life to his community.
He served as chief for 10 yearsand was also director of
education.
Over the years, his focus hasbeen working with people in
reconciliation-type work.
Recently, he's had growingconcerns about current farming
practices that are out ofalignment with the Cree
(01:11):
worldview and the impact thatthat can have on his community
and lands, and that's what we'llbe discussing today.
Hello, Harry, and welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's been a beautiful day.
After a terrific deep freeze,we're ready now.
We're starting to get thoseitchy feelings for the gardening
season.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Exactly.
I couldn't agree more.
I was outside yesterday walkingvery carefully on the ice,
because all the melting snow andthen the freezing is still here
, but I could hear birds andthere's just this kind of
emerging from our dens allwinter.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So, Harry, tell me about yourself before we dig
into this deeper conversationabout the lands and worldview.
Share a little bit more aboutwho you are and what drives your
work and your passion.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I grew up where I'm living now, where my
parents settled there about 100years ago, and I came back to
live there to help them to havea quality of life in their last
years with us, and so it's avery special place in my heart.
(02:29):
It always has been, because theland, my dad's pasture, the
creek that runs to the north ofus, the berry bushes on the
south border of the reserve,they all hold stories and
memories of who we are as afamily.
You know, when we sit down withmy sisters and my brothers,
(02:51):
there's a lot of stories thatcome out of the land,
experiences we had, you know,with animals like horses and
cows and gophers, and it was avery, very alive world when we
were growing up, and so Ireturned there and I continued
to nurture those feelings and topay attention to my neighbors.
(03:15):
Sometimes it's a white tail, orthis winter it's been a little
red fox that's kind of adoptedmy leftovers.
It's been a little red foxthat's kind of adopted my
leftovers, and so that's whatmakes me really feel secure and
rooted, and my family most of myfamily, where I live home, it's
(03:36):
their home, even though they'veall been somewhere else for the
last 50, 60 years.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know they've lived in other places, in other
cities, but going home andcoming to my yard and getting
reconnected, oh, wow, that's sobeautiful and I just love the
imagery and the connection andrelationship that you would
build over years in that sameplace, because in my experience
(04:04):
and it's limited because I grewup in the city, I did live on
reserve for about 10 years whenyou're in the same place but
over many seasons it changes.
It's the same place, yet it'snever the same because it's
constantly changing throughoutthe winter you mentioned, you
know, white-tailed deer.
This year it was a fox.
There's always differentvisitors.
(04:26):
The landscape changes.
Tell me a little bit about that, about, maybe, the experience
especially for those who aredisconnected from the land for
various reasons what that's liketo have that deeper
relationship to a land, a pieceof land, over time.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
The relationship is characterized by many different
feelings and almost like thereis a spiritual element to it,
you know, and like the wholebeing, my whole being as a human
being is affected by watchingthe turn of events over the last
70 years on land that I live on.
(05:04):
What started out as land whereanimals lived eventually became
a wheat field and canola field,and in the process of becoming a
canola field, the berry busheson the south side of our reserve
boundary began to die and so weno longer pick berries there.
It's not safe.
(05:27):
So there is a sense of hurt, Iguess, that I sense for the land
because it gifted us for somany years.
It gifted my family with foodat a time when we were very poor
but didn't know it because wehad lots of berries.
Very poor but didn't know itbecause we had lots of berries.
(05:52):
We always had food, you know.
So that gives me joy, thatgives me a sense of thankfulness
, you know, to the creator, tothe land, the trees and those
animals.
But also, I think, in the lastfew years I've begun to worry a
lot.
I've become very concerned, andit's primarily because there
(06:13):
are people around us, not in thecommunity of Muskeg as such.
But the people, our neighborson the outside have a very
different connection to the landand some of the practices they
are bringing into their farmingoperations.
We're starting to see theimpact on our land.
(06:33):
The south bushes of oursouthern lake are dying.
Every year more bush areabecomes just dead wood, you know
.
So lately I've been worried alot about what's going to happen
to our land over there if wedon't come to some kind of an
understanding.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So what are some of the practices that you're seeing
that are causing concern withthe impacts that they might be
having?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Initially the on-the-ground spraying, we
always felt that it was havingsome kind of an impact and we
were very careful not to put ourgardens where they would be
touched by the drift of thespray during the summer months,
and so we were able to sort ofwork out a solution, you know,
(07:21):
to keep our gardens clean andthe food clean, you know by
location.
But more recently, looking very, very much a dangerous,
all-encompassing impact thatwe're facing, and that's aerial
spraying.
I think, initially, the firstfew summers that we had aerial
spraying in there, immediatelythe people in the heavily
(07:43):
settled areas began to complainabout residue on their vehicles,
on their houses, on themselves,and so we tried to address that
with the farmers.
Well, they no longer spray onreserve land as such, the banned
land, but we do have CPs and wehave little control over those.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Can you remind people what CPs are?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Claims of possession.
That was introduced after theSecond World War as a way of
rewarding the veterans forenlisting and defending Canada
and unfortunately in oursituation, the federal
government decided that theywould give the Indigenous
veterans Indigenous land whichwas already theirs.
(08:29):
So it's kind of a really weirdway of dealing with veterans.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Exactly right, and these are those certificates of
possession where they'd havethat little bit of land that is,
quote privately owned but it'sbanned land, or community nation
land.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That's right.
Yeah, it's been a point ofcontention right from the day it
started.
There's been a tension whenevertheir conversation comes up
about land and CPs and bannedland and that.
So we're a long ways fromresolving that issue in our
community.
I think one of the things thathas come up you know from
(09:09):
eyewitness accounts andespecially on the south side of
the reserve is that, know, theymay think they've shut off the
spray, but there's stuff comingoff those plains and that's
(09:36):
what's causing the bushes tobegin to die, and right next to
the bushes is our lake.
So if they're poisoning thelake, then the pelicans who live
there will no longer be able tolive there, and the geese and
the ducks and all the waterbirds that are part of our
community.
Really.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Well, you know, I hear you talk about this, and
especially in terms of aerialspraying and the winds and and
how wind impacts that and theinterconnectedness of land.
So even if we're talking aboutreserve land, you know privately
held land, cp land, it's landthat's all interconnected and
impacted.
(10:15):
It's not like rooms in a housewhere you have these walls and
doors and things that you canclose out and have these sealed
areas.
It's just not so.
What our neighbours do, what wedo as humans impacts.
You know, our neighbours, ouranimal relatives, the waters,
it's all interconnected.
And so I hear you expressingconcern about current farming
(10:39):
practices, aerial spraying.
I'm always wondering how do wereconcile or how do we work
alongside one another when thereare these different worldviews
on how to interact and managethe land with these different
practices and impacts?
You know this is something thathistorically we've been at odds
since contact, since treatysigning.
(10:59):
It's really these two differentworldviews coming together on
how to use, interact, live onand share the land.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, I think the way we're addressing the issue
starting this year is we'regoing the way of the Western
mind, which is, if you have aconcern, get the data you know,
collect the data, get hardevidence of what is happening
here.
So Muskeg has signed apartnership agreement with
(11:30):
Polytechnic to begin to measurethe air quality and the land
quality in the community and tobegin sort of a major look at
the changes that are occurringfrom year to year and using that
, we hope to be able to use thatdata to have more realistic
conversation with the farmersBecause really, from our
(11:53):
perspective and looking outwardsto these farmers, the driving
motivation for them ismaximizing their profit.
So, without being disrespectful, once we have sufficient data,
once we have sufficient data, wecan, I think, offer out our
hand of dialogue.
You know, come and talk to us,explain to us why you need to
(12:17):
farm that way, and we'll showyou what your farming is doing
to us and to our land and to ourfood source and to the wild
animals that live on our landthat we appreciate and need to
be there, you know, to give usthat holistic community.
That's part of our worldview asCree people.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Harry, can you share a little bit about that?
What is your worldview as Creepeople?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
It's based on the foundational Cree law of
Wahkohtuin.
Wahkohtuin is that.
It sounds like it's very simple, you know making relations, but
when you begin to unpack it,you find that Wahkohtuin is like
a giant tree with a bunch ofbranches on it.
(13:07):
Akotowin touches justeverything in the way the people
see themselves, see theirneighbors, see the land, the
animals and all of creation,everything that the creator has
put here to create a world whereeverything has a place, it has
(13:29):
a function, has a place andthere is an interconnectedness
and interdependence that exists,that is very strong and
necessary for survival.
And so Huacotuan, then, isreally we're only beginning to
unpack it in my community assort of almost like our
constitutional belief statement.
(13:51):
You know, this is us.
We believe in the power ofWakotu and to hold us together
and to strengthen us so that wecan pass that strength on to our
children and grandchildren.
You know we want to teach themhow to be relational in their
approach to life and lessindividualistic and less looking
(14:11):
at the world as a giantcommodity for them to take apart
and eventually destroy.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I find it interesting .
So using the word commodityright, these are discussions
I've had with people inIndigenous food sovereignty
movements, people who areconcerned about farming, farmers
and living in Treaty 4 andTreaty 6 territories where, of
course, farming is such asignificant part of the economy.
(14:39):
And so this idea of commodifying, when you look at it through
Indigenous worldviews Creeworldview, sota worldviews that
it's like putting a price tag onour relatives right, putting a
price tag on the relatives right, putting a price tag on the
animals, on the plants and themedicines, the land itself.
And so I always wonder how, incurrent society, to share, how
(14:59):
do we build bridges with ourfarmers, people who are in food
production, how do we have theseconversations?
Have you had experience havingconversations about?
You know, the worldview wherewe look, where some people look
at it as a commodity, as youknow, how can we increase yields
and how can we increase ourprofit margin and, you know, and
(15:20):
trying to feed their familiesand trying to do all of this
work.
Yet we've got these very realconcerns.
I'm always wondering how do weever possibly reconcile these
two different worldviews when itcomes to how we live on the
land, particularly when it comesto food, food production, local
food, food growing, medicinalplants, all the different types
of food, whether they'recultivated or, you know, grown
(15:42):
wild.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Well, in terms of conversations, my second oldest
brother was a was a farmer andhe was a totally colonized
farmer and he and I had someinteresting conversations over
the years about treatment of theland around my mom and dad's
(16:04):
house, you know, and and thetrees and the berry bushes that
he enjoyed so much when berrieswere converted into pie.
But what I've been doing in thelast couple of years is just
looking outside of our communityto see what's happening out
(16:25):
there.
Are all farmers like this, youknow, like our neighbors?
Are all farmers like this, youknow, like our neighbors?
Or are there people who haverealized how they're doing their
farming is counterproductive?
And, interestingly, I ranacross two examples and I've
(16:50):
been trying to get my communityto bring those two parties into
our community to have them tellus why they changed the way they
did farming.
One is a young farmer fromHumboldt.
After the hockey team had thatmajor, major accident you know
the Broncos he was impacted bythat event very directly and it
(17:13):
kind of spun him into areflection about the importance
of life and the importance ofhow we treat life.
And he was interviewed on CBC Ibelieve it was, that's where I
heard it.
Eventually he changed the wayhe did farming to pay honor to
the land that he was on and tochange the crops that he was
(17:37):
growing and the rotations, andhe did all kinds of interesting
things to help the land to stayhealthy and to keep offering its
gifts to him as an occupantthere.
That was one example.
The other example was in westernSaskatchewan.
This one was a little bit moredifferent in the sense that it
(18:02):
was a big operation and theyoung couple that were farming
very deliberately chose to farmin such a way as to respect the
land that they were on.
You know it was a young familyand they were teaching their
kids that you have to farm in afriendly way with the land that
you live on to make sure that itcontinues and, through the next
(18:25):
generations, to do what it wascreated to do, which is help
human beings to live.
So you know, if there are two,there's probably more.
You know, and it's a questionof if we can get enough of those
people into the same room.
Their voice will become reallymeaningful and significant.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yes, I agree with you , there's more than two and
there's many people that I'vespoken to that are really
concerned about farmingpractices, conventional methods
and the impact that it has onthe land.
And I've been really fascinatedto see in recent years, you
know, an interest inregenerative farming, a farming
that really looks atunderstanding how to build
(19:07):
healthy soil, understanding therelationship between animals and
plants on the land and therelationship that they have
together and how things differwhen you separate out species
that are meant to be together.
And I'm not trying to bedismissive of very real concerns
when it comes to larger scalefarming, when it comes to pest
(19:27):
control and all of these reallyreal concerns.
But I am also very fascinatedand encouraged when there are
people having theseconversations right, and I think
you're right getting them intoa room and discussing these and
trying to find some common place, because I know so many farmers
do care about the land and thewaters.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know it's where they live too, so there's also
another trend and this I'venoticed just in the last three
years, and I think the peoplewho make the machinery need to
be held accountable for the kindof machinery that they're
making and the demands they'reputting on farmers to farm in
(20:07):
ways that are harmful.
And that is the drive to takedown every tree and dry every
slough.
It's just amazing how manypiles of brush I saw yesterday
driving from North Balfour backto Muskeg.
You know that whole areabetween Muskeg and North Balfour
(20:28):
used to be beautiful fieldswith lots of little knolls of
trees and sloughs.
They're all knocked down,they're gone and the sloughs are
gone, and so do farmers knowthat every time you dry up a
slough you affect the moisturecontent underneath.
(20:51):
You're actually making yourland drier than it would have
been if you allowed thosesloughs to do their work, Never
mind the animals, the wildanimals that have been displaced
.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, even when you think 10, 20, 50 years ago and
beyond, the habitats that havebeen destroyed to make room for
large farmland and then theselittle bits that are left, yeah,
it's concerning.
So I know I came to visit,actually, muskeg Lake a couple
of years ago, was there for acouple of days and driving out
there one morning I passed somefarmland where the sloughs and
(21:28):
the trees were being bulldozeddown large machinery backhoes,
and that was early in themorning and by the end of the
day, when I was done, after afull day driving back, it was
buried.
It was completely flat and itwas so fast.
And I've talked to otherfarmers who have concerns about
that and my understanding isthat there's a lot of policy in
(21:50):
place that encourages that typeof destruction.
And so, yeah, I think thatthese are very big conversations
and necessary conversations,because it took hours to bury
that habitat.
But what is the long-termimpact?
How do we ever recover fromthat?
And I think about those berrybushes that you were just
talking about, you know and whatwe can be losing.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Interestingly, you know, what used to be Muskeg
Lakeland is now owned by farmerson the east side of the reserve
, you know, after 1919 surrender, and that farmer has leveled
every bush and created a vastopen field.
(22:33):
And I'm waiting for that firstwindstorm that comes from the
west over the hills and we'regoing to be seeing a lot of big
dust storms in the long run.
We've seen it before, we'veexperienced it and I think
that's the kind of conversationsthat need to be had, you know,
to remember what has happened inthe past when the land has been
(22:59):
mistreated and it reacts in away, you know, to deliver the
message that this is notacceptable.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I love that phrase that it reacts.
You know because it does, andsome of the conversations I've
had with other elders andknowledge keepers around farming
or even issues when it comes to, say, climate change and what's
been happening worldwide andlocally, it's often referred to
as this is a response.
(23:28):
Right, it's the land reacting.
It's a consequence of breakingnatural laws and the original
instructions that we were givenon how to live in relationship
with the lands and the animalsand the waters, and so I love
that phrase.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
One of my casual reading practices is archaeology
magazines.
I don't know why, but I likeold bones, I guess.
Anyway, so I've been readingour archaeology magazines for
years and I really find itfascinating that we should
actually teach archaeology tothe kids, because there have
(24:05):
been so many civilizations allover the world that have
disappeared directly because ofthe way they treated the land,
you know, whether it's in Peruor in Mexico or in Africa.
You know, and we could learn somuch about respect for the land
(24:28):
if we would pay attention towhat our ancestors had to live
through, you know, as aconsequence of how they farmed
and, in many cases, cut down theforests.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I couldn't agree more .
Looking at that historically,yeah, exactly.
One question I have for you iswhat are your thoughts on, say,
the work that is happening atBridge to Land Water Sky, you
know, looking at differentfarming practices that leads to
healthy waters, healthy land,healthy air that benefits people
, that benefits, you know, theecosystems?
(25:05):
Do you have any thoughts onlooking at doing things in a
different way that mightincorporate more that worldview
that is respectful of all lifeand the impact that our
decisions have?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
It's a breath of fresh air.
We've been waiting a long timefor something to change in the
way the land is treated in ourcommunities, and I think we're
doing interesting things andgenerating interesting
conversations, and it's already.
I think we're doing interestingthings and generating
interesting conversations, andit's already.
I think helping the children torealize land is important for
them.
You know they're getting it inthe school, they're getting it
(25:42):
in land-based education andthey're getting it when they get
out there and they pick apples.
You know, for themselves, fortheir community, it's all
interrelated and it delivers areally positive message.
I think we have to broaden ourconversation.
(26:02):
Right now it's Muskeg,missedawasis, but we need to
broaden because some of whatwe're talking about and some of
what we're trying to changeflows through our neighbors,
like the lakes in Muskeg are fedby streams and by lakes that
are not on reserve land, andthen they're flowing through
(26:25):
farmers' fields and so what theydo on their farms is flowing
into our community and to ourlakes in the long run, and then
it flows through and keeps goingto the river.
You know our lake empties intothe North Saskatchewan River and
so we're.
You know I guess there's acertain amount of being
(26:48):
complicit, you know, with thepractice by damaging the North
Saskatchewan River, you know, asit flows through our land into
that river.
So you know, I like what we'redoing, I'm really positive and
my family really are verysupportive and we try to make
(27:11):
sure the people who are on thefront lines of those projects
know that we appreciate whatthey're doing.
And if we can volunteer, we doand we sit down and we talk and
we feel that we have to be theones to create that community
(27:31):
inclusion feeling for especiallythe people who are not from the
reserve, who are working withus on this, we have to make them
feel like, yeah, we need you,we appreciate you and keep
providing us with the leadershipthat you have now.
But, like I said, we need tokeep pushing the boundaries of
(27:54):
our influence, you know actively.
Unfortunately, you know ourcolonized minds have made us
waiters.
We wait for most of the time.
We're waiting for government,and so it's been.
Another one of our subtleinitiatives here in Muskeg is to
say what are you waiting for?
(28:16):
Why are you waiting?
You can do it yourself.
You don't need some guy fromOttawa to agree that what you're
doing is good.
You, as a community memberdecide.
So we're trying to foster thatthinking, you know, so that we
don't become waiters and we canget right to it Plant a tree if
(28:36):
you need to plant a tree.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Well, and speaking of planting a tree, tell me about
your food forest on Muskeg Lake.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, that was a miracle and you know it just
needed that one person, you know, who'd come into the community
and spout off ideas that nobodyhad ever heard before in Muskeg
Lake.
But he didn't stop there, hejust did little things and they
(29:06):
caught on, and next thing, youknow, we had an orchard, and
next thing, you know, we had a.
We had an orchard, and I thinkit's changed attitudes in the
community about food.
It used to be that in a, youknow, right from the beginning,
when we settled in that land, itwas a really strong ethic of
(29:27):
growing your own food, you know,mat Matsi.
So, you know, put life intoyourself, you know, by what you
do.
And so gardening took hold,small-scale farms, like my mom
had three cows, I think, at onetime.
We all milked, we had chickensand we had horses and pigs and
(29:48):
big gardens.
We had horses and pigs and biggardens and we knew how to
preserve and keep those potatoesfirm until May, june, you know,
and then we'd plant them again.
That was the way people livedup until 1960.
Then social services stepped inand killed all of that.
(30:10):
And so, you know, from the 60s,70s and 80s they were the odd
person that was, you know, stilltrying to do that, but it
wasn't a way of life anymore.
And so now we're beginning torealize.
You know, with this orchard andthe vegetables that we grow
every summer and the huntingthat goes on, you know there's a
(30:34):
revival of hunting among theyoung people, and it's not just
the men, it's the women as well.
You know, teaching the youngwomen how to be respectful Cree
hunters.
The attitude towards Matsisoenis to emerge, you know, as a way
of thinking, and if we canmaintain it, I have a real
(30:58):
positive feeling that a lot ofgood is going to come out of
these initial projects.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You know that first apple tree that the kids planted
I just I love hearing about thefood forest on Muskeg Lake and
how it started and how it'sevolved, and just the community
involvement.
And then how do we, you know,make sure that the food that
we're growing actually ispreserved for consumption down
(31:27):
the road, and all of theseskills that need to be learned
in response to it, right?
So, when it comes to theworldview a Cree worldview in
food production, you know likethe landscape has been altered
so dramatically over the lasthundred years that we don't have
the habitats that we used to.
When it comes to our ownIndigenous food systems, when it
(31:51):
comes to our own Indigenousfood systems, do you have a
sense that, in fusing farmingand building relationships with
the farming community, andsharing these worldviews on how
to live in relationship with allthe different aspects will have
a positive impact?
That there is a desire to learnto do things in a different way
?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I think so.
I was at a strategy meetinghere on self-government and the
lands people were talking.
The first time I hear landspeople saying you know, when the
lease is done, maybe we canlook at how we're using this
land.
Maybe there's a better way thanjust leasing it to some farmer
(32:32):
who is going to make a pile ofmoney.
Give us our little share.
Maybe there is a way for us to.
And I think that thinking isgrowing and I really think that
the next generation of youngleaders in our community have a
very different idea, because thecurrent, like my generation,
(32:54):
were impacted by the farmingpractices of our neighbors when
they got combines.
We got combines.
There was no really creativeprocess occurring inside the
community to take a look at.
Is this the best way?
Cutting all those Saskatoonbushes?
(33:15):
Is that the best thing weshould be doing?
You know that, asking thosetypes of questions, but now
those questions are being asked.
You know how much can we getfrom those Saskatoon bushes in
the pasture, you know?
And if we treat them properly,how will they impact us as a
(33:37):
food source?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
It just reminds me so much of that teaching that when
we look after the land, itlooks after us or when we look
after the animals, they lookafter us, and with the plant
nations and all of thoserelationships.
I feel encouraged too with thediscussions that I've had with
people on this podcast, withpeople in kind of the health and
wellness community that arereally interested in food
(34:02):
practices, food productionpractices and the impact on
healthy ecosystems.
I do feel encouraged.
Yet it is all happening withinTreaty 4 and Treaty 6
territories where every day Idrive by and I see these vast
areas that are completely atodds with that worldview.
So it does help to have theseconversations and to see you
know the pockets of people thatare planting trees and making
(34:26):
plans for the future and how wecan move forward with this.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And you know it really does make a difference
when you work with the children.
I'm a teacher, so you know I'vehad some really positive
experiences with children and itreally does make a difference
when you take the children outand you sit them down on the
ground and you talk about theland and how it feels and what
(34:51):
it gives and how they need toacknowledge and acknowledge it
in a concrete way, you know,learning how to offer gifts to
that land.
The impact I've seen adifference.
I think that's part of whywe're facing a different
attitude with the lands, people,because these are the people
(35:12):
that were children when we firsttook over the elementary school
in our community and we changedtone of the instruction, you
know, to make them aware thatthey're Cree people and I, being
a Cree person, meant you needto know how you fit and how the
(35:32):
land takes care of you.
Part of that was part of thecurriculum, has been ever since.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
That's wonderful.
That's such a good example ofhow, when we understand who we
are and our teachings and thenwhen we make decisions for our
community and for the lands,it's infused with that and to go
against what conventionally ishappening all around us
off-reserve and in neighboringcommunities.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, I think since the late 1970s, as part of our
healing process, the resurgenceor the revival of Cree
ceremonies.
Those Cree ceremonies are soconnected to the land.
You know when you have a pipeceremony, sitting on the grass
(36:20):
is so much more connecting tothe pulse of that land.
You know you can't avoid it.
It touches you and impacts youas you sit there that prayer
takes on a different tonealtogether.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Harry, thank you so much for sharing all of these
stories and anecdotes andteachings and experiences with
us.
Is there something that you'dreally like to get across?
As far as you know, buildingthese relationships, building
bridges and trying to halt someof the more harmful practices
that are impacting our lands.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
You know, what I really desire for is for our
neighbors to feel a sense ofsecurity that we mean them no
harm.
We want to be good neighbors.
I've been practicing thatpersonally.
Just you know my own way ofdoing things, by inviting groups
(37:19):
onto the reserve and justtaking them around and
introducing them and lettingthem see Muskeg is a good place,
we're good people and we'resmart, we know lots of stuff.
Deal with that sense of fearthat our neighbors have of us
(37:40):
and then we can talk that ourneighbors have of us.
And then we can talk.
You know, once we can starttalking, then there's no holding
us back from finding a way tolive together.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Oh, I couldn't agree more with that.
I have a friend who has a lotof concerns and lives on a farm
and, you know, invited the localMLA out to walk the coulee and
just have a conversation.
They were completely at oddspolitically with decisions that
were being made that impact theland and it's so easy to just
lash out or just not attemptthose conversations because
(38:16):
you're so far on the spectrum.
But she invited him and theywent for a walk and they didn't.
You know, they don't see eye toeye, but it was again about
being human to human, walkingthe land, having a conversation,
trying to understand eachother's worldview, point of view
, try to see where there is somespace for even just dialogue,
(38:36):
even just respectful dialogue onissues in which they disagree.
And I do think it's importantthat we practice those skills as
well, right when we're talking,because people are threatened
with their livelihood and it'sreal concerns.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, we always make a treaty day.
Treaty day is we always inviteour neighbors to come and be
part of treaty day and we treatthem like real special guests.
Invite our neighbors to comeand be part of Treaty Day and we
treat them like real specialguests.
You know, and some of them youcan just see their nervous
(39:17):
twitch, but usually by the endof the day you know they've
realized.
You know, what am I afraid of?
There's nothing.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
These are people that want to be friends.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yes, exactly you just have to keep plugging away at
that thinking.
Confrontation, anger don'tusually lead to dialogue.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Exactly.
Well, I think this is such afitting conversation for our
podcast.
It's called bridging relationsand and we're really looking to,
um, yeah, how can we, how canwe find some common ground?
How can we have thesediscussions, um, that are
different ways of of existingand being on the land and food
production, and um, there's somany interesting people that
(40:02):
we've talked to that havedifferent perspectives, and so
the conversations have.
I've learned so much, and I'velearned so much from you today,
harry.
Is there anything else that Ihaven't asked you that you feel
is important to share?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
No, I don't think so.
I think this has been a goodconversation and I want to thank
you for that.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Thank you so much, harry, and I just wanted to end
by um, really acknowledging yourthe saskatoon berry bushes, uh,
that you brought up and how,and you said like, uh, we didn't
know we were poor because wewere rich in berries and I'm
finding now.
Uh, because of everything we'vetalked about, I do a lot of food
gathering, as much as I can, uhwith with where I'm at in my
knowledge journey.
(40:41):
But Saskatoon's, you know,aren't always easy, or
somebody's you know been to thebush before I've gotten there,
and so they're not.
I'm not always getting themwhen I want, and that's the
thing.
When you're not growing, youknow, or cultivating them when
you're gathering in the wild.
There's all of these differentvariables and wild Saskatoon's
are my absolute favorite foodand I didn't get out this past
(41:02):
summer to collect my own, and afriend of mine dropped off six
large bags of wild Saskatoons asa gift and that was the richest
, most valued gift that.
I've received in a long time,and every time I take a bag of
that frozen Saskatoon bag out ofmy freezer for, you know, my
(41:23):
breakfast or whatever I alwaysthink of that person and I just
have such gratitude.
But so I I really resonate withthe richness in berries.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
You know, we're supposed to be the sharing
culture.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So we tease the old ladies back home?
Yeah, we tell them.
When we ask you where theberries are, where are the
raspberries, and all you do isyou kind of twitch your nose in
a direction, right, I?
Speaker 1 (41:52):
know, twitch their nose.
They don't even point theirlips because they don't want to
be too specific.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
No, not even the lips Right.
I know Over there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
It's funny, I love our people that way Over there
somewhere.
It's funny, I love our peoplethat way.
Harry, thank you so much forsharing and for being with me
this afternoon to have thisconversation.
I really enjoyed it and allthat you had to share.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, and keep doing the good work.
That's very important.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Thank you, thank you, same to you, thank you, take
care.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Thank you.
Same to you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Take care.
This is the Bridging RelationsPodcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time.
Funding for this project hasbeen provided by Agriculture and
Agri-Food Canada through theAgricultural Climate Solutions
(42:42):
Living Labs Program.
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast.
I'm your host, Michelle Brass.
Here we dive into diverseperspectives on agriculture and
land management, blendingWestern science and farmer
expertise with Indigenousknowledge and wisdom.
Together, we can addresschallenges and opportunities
that enhance agriculturalpractices to support healthy
(00:29):
land, water and sky for futuregenerations.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey.
On today's episode, we're goingto discuss the importance of
stewarding land under a Cree orNehia worldview, especially when
it comes to protecting localfood and medicinal plants.
Joining us for thisconversation is Harry Lafond.
(00:51):
He's a member of Muskeg LakeCree Nation and has devoted much
of his life to his community.
He served as chief for 10 yearsand was also director of
education.
Over the years, his focus hasbeen working with people in
reconciliation-type work.
Recently, he's had growingconcerns about current farming
practices that are out ofalignment with the Cree
(01:11):
worldview and the impact thatthat can have on his community
and lands, and that's what we'llbe discussing today.
Hello, Harry, and welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's been a beautiful day.
After a terrific deep freeze,we're ready now.
We're starting to get thoseitchy feelings for the gardening
season.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Exactly.
I couldn't agree more.
I was outside yesterday walkingvery carefully on the ice,
because all the melting snow andthen the freezing is still here
, but I could hear birds andthere's just this kind of
emerging from our dens allwinter.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So, Harry, tell me about yourself before we dig
into this deeper conversationabout the lands and worldview.
Share a little bit more aboutwho you are and what drives your
work and your passion.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I grew up where I'm living now, where my
parents settled there about 100years ago, and I came back to
live there to help them to havea quality of life in their last
years with us, and so it's avery special place in my heart.
(02:29):
It always has been, because theland, my dad's pasture, the
creek that runs to the north ofus, the berry bushes on the
south border of the reserve,they all hold stories and
memories of who we are as afamily.
You know, when we sit down withmy sisters and my brothers,
(02:51):
there's a lot of stories thatcome out of the land,
experiences we had, you know,with animals like horses and
cows and gophers, and it was avery, very alive world when we
were growing up, and so Ireturned there and I continued
to nurture those feelings and topay attention to my neighbors.
(03:15):
Sometimes it's a white tail, orthis winter it's been a little
red fox that's kind of adoptedmy leftovers.
It's been a little red foxthat's kind of adopted my
leftovers, and so that's whatmakes me really feel secure and
rooted, and my family most of myfamily, where I live home, it's
(03:36):
their home, even though they'veall been somewhere else for the
last 50, 60 years.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know they've lived in other places, in other
cities, but going home andcoming to my yard and getting
reconnected, oh, wow, that's sobeautiful and I just love the
imagery and the connection andrelationship that you would
build over years in that sameplace, because in my experience
(04:04):
and it's limited because I grewup in the city, I did live on
reserve for about 10 years whenyou're in the same place but
over many seasons it changes.
It's the same place, yet it'snever the same because it's
constantly changing throughoutthe winter you mentioned, you
know, white-tailed deer.
This year it was a fox.
There's always differentvisitors.
(04:26):
The landscape changes.
Tell me a little bit about that, about, maybe, the experience
especially for those who aredisconnected from the land for
various reasons what that's liketo have that deeper
relationship to a land, a pieceof land, over time.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
The relationship is characterized by many different
feelings and almost like thereis a spiritual element to it,
you know, and like the wholebeing, my whole being as a human
being is affected by watchingthe turn of events over the last
70 years on land that I live on.
(05:04):
What started out as land whereanimals lived eventually became
a wheat field and canola field,and in the process of becoming a
canola field, the berry busheson the south side of our reserve
boundary began to die and so weno longer pick berries there.
It's not safe.
(05:27):
So there is a sense of hurt, Iguess, that I sense for the land
because it gifted us for somany years.
It gifted my family with foodat a time when we were very poor
but didn't know it because wehad lots of berries.
Very poor but didn't know itbecause we had lots of berries.
(05:52):
We always had food, you know.
So that gives me joy, thatgives me a sense of thankfulness
, you know, to the creator, tothe land, the trees and those
animals.
But also, I think, in the lastfew years I've begun to worry a
lot.
I've become very concerned, andit's primarily because there
(06:13):
are people around us, not in thecommunity of Muskeg as such.
But the people, our neighborson the outside have a very
different connection to the landand some of the practices they
are bringing into their farmingoperations.
We're starting to see theimpact on our land.
(06:33):
The south bushes of oursouthern lake are dying.
Every year more bush areabecomes just dead wood, you know
.
So lately I've been worried alot about what's going to happen
to our land over there if wedon't come to some kind of an
understanding.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So what are some of the practices that you're seeing
that are causing concern withthe impacts that they might be
having?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Initially the on-the-ground spraying, we
always felt that it was havingsome kind of an impact and we
were very careful not to put ourgardens where they would be
touched by the drift of thespray during the summer months,
and so we were able to sort ofwork out a solution, you know,
(07:21):
to keep our gardens clean andthe food clean, you know by
location.
But more recently, looking very, very much a dangerous,
all-encompassing impact thatwe're facing, and that's aerial
spraying.
I think, initially, the firstfew summers that we had aerial
spraying in there, immediatelythe people in the heavily
(07:43):
settled areas began to complainabout residue on their vehicles,
on their houses, on themselves,and so we tried to address that
with the farmers.
Well, they no longer spray onreserve land as such, the banned
land, but we do have CPs and wehave little control over those.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Can you remind people what CPs are?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Claims of possession.
That was introduced after theSecond World War as a way of
rewarding the veterans forenlisting and defending Canada
and unfortunately in oursituation, the federal
government decided that theywould give the Indigenous
veterans Indigenous land whichwas already theirs.
(08:29):
So it's kind of a really weirdway of dealing with veterans.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Exactly right, and these are those certificates of
possession where they'd havethat little bit of land that is,
quote privately owned but it'sbanned land, or community nation
land.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That's right.
Yeah, it's been a point ofcontention right from the day it
started.
There's been a tension whenevertheir conversation comes up
about land and CPs and bannedland and that.
So we're a long ways fromresolving that issue in our
community.
I think one of the things thathas come up you know from
(09:09):
eyewitness accounts andespecially on the south side of
the reserve is that, know, theymay think they've shut off the
spray, but there's stuff comingoff those plains and that's
(09:36):
what's causing the bushes tobegin to die, and right next to
the bushes is our lake.
So if they're poisoning thelake, then the pelicans who live
there will no longer be able tolive there, and the geese and
the ducks and all the waterbirds that are part of our
community.
Really.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Well, you know, I hear you talk about this, and
especially in terms of aerialspraying and the winds and and
how wind impacts that and theinterconnectedness of land.
So even if we're talking aboutreserve land, you know privately
held land, cp land, it's landthat's all interconnected and
impacted.
(10:15):
It's not like rooms in a housewhere you have these walls and
doors and things that you canclose out and have these sealed
areas.
It's just not so.
What our neighbours do, what wedo as humans impacts.
You know, our neighbours, ouranimal relatives, the waters,
it's all interconnected.
And so I hear you expressingconcern about current farming
(10:39):
practices, aerial spraying.
I'm always wondering how do wereconcile or how do we work
alongside one another when thereare these different worldviews
on how to interact and managethe land with these different
practices and impacts?
You know this is something thathistorically we've been at odds
since contact, since treatysigning.
(10:59):
It's really these two differentworldviews coming together on
how to use, interact, live onand share the land.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, I think the way we're addressing the issue
starting this year is we'regoing the way of the Western
mind, which is, if you have aconcern, get the data you know,
collect the data, get hardevidence of what is happening
here.
So Muskeg has signed apartnership agreement with
(11:30):
Polytechnic to begin to measurethe air quality and the land
quality in the community and tobegin sort of a major look at
the changes that are occurringfrom year to year and using that
, we hope to be able to use thatdata to have more realistic
conversation with the farmersBecause really, from our
(11:53):
perspective and looking outwardsto these farmers, the driving
motivation for them ismaximizing their profit.
So, without being disrespectful, once we have sufficient data,
once we have sufficient data, wecan, I think, offer out our
hand of dialogue.
You know, come and talk to us,explain to us why you need to
(12:17):
farm that way, and we'll showyou what your farming is doing
to us and to our land and to ourfood source and to the wild
animals that live on our landthat we appreciate and need to
be there, you know, to give usthat holistic community.
That's part of our worldview asCree people.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Harry, can you share a little bit about that?
What is your worldview as Creepeople?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
It's based on the foundational Cree law of
Wahkohtuin.
Wahkohtuin is that.
It sounds like it's very simple, you know making relations, but
when you begin to unpack it,you find that Wahkohtuin is like
a giant tree with a bunch ofbranches on it.
(13:07):
Akotowin touches justeverything in the way the people
see themselves, see theirneighbors, see the land, the
animals and all of creation,everything that the creator has
put here to create a world whereeverything has a place, it has
(13:29):
a function, has a place andthere is an interconnectedness
and interdependence that exists,that is very strong and
necessary for survival.
And so Huacotuan, then, isreally we're only beginning to
unpack it in my community assort of almost like our
constitutional belief statement.
(13:51):
You know, this is us.
We believe in the power ofWakotu and to hold us together
and to strengthen us so that wecan pass that strength on to our
children and grandchildren.
You know we want to teach themhow to be relational in their
approach to life and lessindividualistic and less looking
(14:11):
at the world as a giantcommodity for them to take apart
and eventually destroy.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I find it interesting .
So using the word commodityright, these are discussions
I've had with people inIndigenous food sovereignty
movements, people who areconcerned about farming, farmers
and living in Treaty 4 andTreaty 6 territories where, of
course, farming is such asignificant part of the economy.
(14:39):
And so this idea of commodifying, when you look at it through
Indigenous worldviews Creeworldview, sota worldviews that
it's like putting a price tag onour relatives right, putting a
price tag on the relatives right, putting a price tag on the
animals, on the plants and themedicines, the land itself.
And so I always wonder how, incurrent society, to share, how
(14:59):
do we build bridges with ourfarmers, people who are in food
production, how do we have theseconversations?
Have you had experience havingconversations about?
You know, the worldview wherewe look, where some people look
at it as a commodity, as youknow, how can we increase yields
and how can we increase ourprofit margin and, you know, and
(15:20):
trying to feed their familiesand trying to do all of this
work.
Yet we've got these very realconcerns.
I'm always wondering how do weever possibly reconcile these
two different worldviews when itcomes to how we live on the
land, particularly when it comesto food, food production, local
food, food growing, medicinalplants, all the different types
of food, whether they'recultivated or, you know, grown
(15:42):
wild.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Well, in terms of conversations, my second oldest
brother was a was a farmer andhe was a totally colonized
farmer and he and I had someinteresting conversations over
the years about treatment of theland around my mom and dad's
(16:04):
house, you know, and and thetrees and the berry bushes that
he enjoyed so much when berrieswere converted into pie.
But what I've been doing in thelast couple of years is just
looking outside of our communityto see what's happening out
(16:25):
there.
Are all farmers like this, youknow, like our neighbors?
Are all farmers like this, youknow, like our neighbors?
Or are there people who haverealized how they're doing their
farming is counterproductive?
And, interestingly, I ranacross two examples and I've
(16:50):
been trying to get my communityto bring those two parties into
our community to have them tellus why they changed the way they
did farming.
One is a young farmer fromHumboldt.
After the hockey team had thatmajor, major accident you know
the Broncos he was impacted bythat event very directly and it
(17:13):
kind of spun him into areflection about the importance
of life and the importance ofhow we treat life.
And he was interviewed on CBC Ibelieve it was, that's where I
heard it.
Eventually he changed the wayhe did farming to pay honor to
the land that he was on and tochange the crops that he was
(17:37):
growing and the rotations, andhe did all kinds of interesting
things to help the land to stayhealthy and to keep offering its
gifts to him as an occupantthere.
That was one example.
The other example was in westernSaskatchewan.
This one was a little bit moredifferent in the sense that it
(18:02):
was a big operation and theyoung couple that were farming
very deliberately chose to farmin such a way as to respect the
land that they were on.
You know it was a young familyand they were teaching their
kids that you have to farm in afriendly way with the land that
you live on to make sure that itcontinues and, through the next
(18:25):
generations, to do what it wascreated to do, which is help
human beings to live.
So you know, if there are two,there's probably more.
You know, and it's a questionof if we can get enough of those
people into the same room.
Their voice will become reallymeaningful and significant.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yes, I agree with you , there's more than two and
there's many people that I'vespoken to that are really
concerned about farmingpractices, conventional methods
and the impact that it has onthe land.
And I've been really fascinatedto see in recent years, you
know, an interest inregenerative farming, a farming
that really looks atunderstanding how to build
(19:07):
healthy soil, understanding therelationship between animals and
plants on the land and therelationship that they have
together and how things differwhen you separate out species
that are meant to be together.
And I'm not trying to bedismissive of very real concerns
when it comes to larger scalefarming, when it comes to pest
(19:27):
control and all of these reallyreal concerns.
But I am also very fascinatedand encouraged when there are
people having theseconversations right, and I think
you're right getting them intoa room and discussing these and
trying to find some common place, because I know so many farmers
do care about the land and thewaters.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know it's where they live too, so there's also
another trend and this I'venoticed just in the last three
years, and I think the peoplewho make the machinery need to
be held accountable for the kindof machinery that they're
making and the demands they'reputting on farmers to farm in
(20:07):
ways that are harmful.
And that is the drive to takedown every tree and dry every
slough.
It's just amazing how manypiles of brush I saw yesterday
driving from North Balfour backto Muskeg.
You know that whole areabetween Muskeg and North Balfour
(20:28):
used to be beautiful fieldswith lots of little knolls of
trees and sloughs.
They're all knocked down,they're gone and the sloughs are
gone, and so do farmers knowthat every time you dry up a
slough you affect the moisturecontent underneath.
(20:51):
You're actually making yourland drier than it would have
been if you allowed thosesloughs to do their work, Never
mind the animals, the wildanimals that have been displaced
.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, even when you think 10, 20, 50 years ago and
beyond, the habitats that havebeen destroyed to make room for
large farmland and then theselittle bits that are left, yeah,
it's concerning.
So I know I came to visit,actually, muskeg Lake a couple
of years ago, was there for acouple of days and driving out
there one morning I passed somefarmland where the sloughs and
(21:28):
the trees were being bulldozeddown large machinery backhoes,
and that was early in themorning and by the end of the
day, when I was done, after afull day driving back, it was
buried.
It was completely flat and itwas so fast.
And I've talked to otherfarmers who have concerns about
that and my understanding isthat there's a lot of policy in
(21:50):
place that encourages that typeof destruction.
And so, yeah, I think thatthese are very big conversations
and necessary conversations,because it took hours to bury
that habitat.
But what is the long-termimpact?
How do we ever recover fromthat?
And I think about those berrybushes that you were just
talking about, you know and whatwe can be losing.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Interestingly, you know, what used to be Muskeg
Lakeland is now owned by farmerson the east side of the reserve
, you know, after 1919 surrender, and that farmer has leveled
every bush and created a vastopen field.
(22:33):
And I'm waiting for that firstwindstorm that comes from the
west over the hills and we'regoing to be seeing a lot of big
dust storms in the long run.
We've seen it before, we'veexperienced it and I think
that's the kind of conversationsthat need to be had, you know,
to remember what has happened inthe past when the land has been
(22:59):
mistreated and it reacts in away, you know, to deliver the
message that this is notacceptable.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I love that phrase that it reacts.
You know because it does, andsome of the conversations I've
had with other elders andknowledge keepers around farming
or even issues when it comes to, say, climate change and what's
been happening worldwide andlocally, it's often referred to
as this is a response.
(23:28):
Right, it's the land reacting.
It's a consequence of breakingnatural laws and the original
instructions that we were givenon how to live in relationship
with the lands and the animalsand the waters, and so I love
that phrase.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
One of my casual reading practices is archaeology
magazines.
I don't know why, but I likeold bones, I guess.
Anyway, so I've been readingour archaeology magazines for
years and I really find itfascinating that we should
actually teach archaeology tothe kids, because there have
(24:05):
been so many civilizations allover the world that have
disappeared directly because ofthe way they treated the land,
you know, whether it's in Peruor in Mexico or in Africa.
You know, and we could learn somuch about respect for the land
(24:28):
if we would pay attention towhat our ancestors had to live
through, you know, as aconsequence of how they farmed
and, in many cases, cut down theforests.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I couldn't agree more .
Looking at that historically,yeah, exactly.
One question I have for you iswhat are your thoughts on, say,
the work that is happening atBridge to Land Water Sky, you
know, looking at differentfarming practices that leads to
healthy waters, healthy land,healthy air that benefits people
, that benefits, you know, theecosystems?
(25:05):
Do you have any thoughts onlooking at doing things in a
different way that mightincorporate more that worldview
that is respectful of all lifeand the impact that our
decisions have?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
It's a breath of fresh air.
We've been waiting a long timefor something to change in the
way the land is treated in ourcommunities, and I think we're
doing interesting things andgenerating interesting
conversations, and it's already.
I think we're doing interestingthings and generating
interesting conversations, andit's already.
I think helping the children torealize land is important for
them.
You know they're getting it inthe school, they're getting it
(25:42):
in land-based education andthey're getting it when they get
out there and they pick apples.
You know, for themselves, fortheir community, it's all
interrelated and it delivers areally positive message.
I think we have to broaden ourconversation.
(26:02):
Right now it's Muskeg,missedawasis, but we need to
broaden because some of whatwe're talking about and some of
what we're trying to changeflows through our neighbors,
like the lakes in Muskeg are fedby streams and by lakes that
are not on reserve land, andthen they're flowing through
(26:25):
farmers' fields and so what theydo on their farms is flowing
into our community and to ourlakes in the long run, and then
it flows through and keeps goingto the river.
You know our lake empties intothe North Saskatchewan River and
so we're.
You know I guess there's acertain amount of being
(26:48):
complicit, you know, with thepractice by damaging the North
Saskatchewan River, you know, asit flows through our land into
that river.
So you know, I like what we'redoing, I'm really positive and
my family really are verysupportive and we try to make
(27:11):
sure the people who are on thefront lines of those projects
know that we appreciate whatthey're doing.
And if we can volunteer, we doand we sit down and we talk and
we feel that we have to be theones to create that community
(27:31):
inclusion feeling for especiallythe people who are not from the
reserve, who are working withus on this, we have to make them
feel like, yeah, we need you,we appreciate you and keep
providing us with the leadershipthat you have now.
But, like I said, we need tokeep pushing the boundaries of
(27:54):
our influence, you know actively.
Unfortunately, you know ourcolonized minds have made us
waiters.
We wait for most of the time.
We're waiting for government,and so it's been.
Another one of our subtleinitiatives here in Muskeg is to
say what are you waiting for?
(28:16):
Why are you waiting?
You can do it yourself.
You don't need some guy fromOttawa to agree that what you're
doing is good.
You, as a community memberdecide.
So we're trying to foster thatthinking, you know, so that we
don't become waiters and we canget right to it Plant a tree if
(28:36):
you need to plant a tree.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Well, and speaking of planting a tree, tell me about
your food forest on Muskeg Lake.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, that was a miracle and you know it just
needed that one person, you know, who'd come into the community
and spout off ideas that nobodyhad ever heard before in Muskeg
Lake.
But he didn't stop there, hejust did little things and they
(29:06):
caught on, and next thing, youknow, we had an orchard, and
next thing, you know, we had a.
We had an orchard, and I thinkit's changed attitudes in the
community about food.
It used to be that in a, youknow, right from the beginning,
when we settled in that land, itwas a really strong ethic of
(29:27):
growing your own food, you know,mat Matsi.
So, you know, put life intoyourself, you know, by what you
do.
And so gardening took hold,small-scale farms, like my mom
had three cows, I think, at onetime.
We all milked, we had chickensand we had horses and pigs and
(29:48):
big gardens.
We had horses and pigs and biggardens and we knew how to
preserve and keep those potatoesfirm until May, june, you know,
and then we'd plant them again.
That was the way people livedup until 1960.
Then social services stepped inand killed all of that.
(30:10):
And so, you know, from the 60s,70s and 80s they were the odd
person that was, you know, stilltrying to do that, but it
wasn't a way of life anymore.
And so now we're beginning torealize.
You know, with this orchard andthe vegetables that we grow
every summer and the huntingthat goes on, you know there's a
(30:34):
revival of hunting among theyoung people, and it's not just
the men, it's the women as well.
You know, teaching the youngwomen how to be respectful Cree
hunters.
The attitude towards Matsisoenis to emerge, you know, as a way
of thinking, and if we canmaintain it, I have a real
(30:58):
positive feeling that a lot ofgood is going to come out of
these initial projects.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You know that first apple tree that the kids planted
I just I love hearing about thefood forest on Muskeg Lake and
how it started and how it'sevolved, and just the community
involvement.
And then how do we, you know,make sure that the food that
we're growing actually ispreserved for consumption down
(31:27):
the road, and all of theseskills that need to be learned
in response to it, right?
So, when it comes to theworldview a Cree worldview in
food production, you know likethe landscape has been altered
so dramatically over the lasthundred years that we don't have
the habitats that we used to.
When it comes to our ownIndigenous food systems, when it
(31:51):
comes to our own Indigenousfood systems, do you have a
sense that, in fusing farmingand building relationships with
the farming community, andsharing these worldviews on how
to live in relationship with allthe different aspects will have
a positive impact?
That there is a desire to learnto do things in a different way
?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I think so.
I was at a strategy meetinghere on self-government and the
lands people were talking.
The first time I hear landspeople saying you know, when the
lease is done, maybe we canlook at how we're using this
land.
Maybe there's a better way thanjust leasing it to some farmer
(32:32):
who is going to make a pile ofmoney.
Give us our little share.
Maybe there is a way for us to.
And I think that thinking isgrowing and I really think that
the next generation of youngleaders in our community have a
very different idea, because thecurrent, like my generation,
(32:54):
were impacted by the farmingpractices of our neighbors when
they got combines.
We got combines.
There was no really creativeprocess occurring inside the
community to take a look at.
Is this the best way?
Cutting all those Saskatoonbushes?
(33:15):
Is that the best thing weshould be doing?
You know that, asking thosetypes of questions, but now
those questions are being asked.
You know how much can we getfrom those Saskatoon bushes in
the pasture, you know?
And if we treat them properly,how will they impact us as a
(33:37):
food source?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
It just reminds me so much of that teaching that when
we look after the land, itlooks after us or when we look
after the animals, they lookafter us, and with the plant
nations and all of thoserelationships.
I feel encouraged too with thediscussions that I've had with
people on this podcast, withpeople in kind of the health and
wellness community that arereally interested in food
(34:02):
practices, food productionpractices and the impact on
healthy ecosystems.
I do feel encouraged.
Yet it is all happening withinTreaty 4 and Treaty 6
territories where every day Idrive by and I see these vast
areas that are completely atodds with that worldview.
So it does help to have theseconversations and to see you
know the pockets of people thatare planting trees and making
(34:26):
plans for the future and how wecan move forward with this.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And you know it really does make a difference
when you work with the children.
I'm a teacher, so you know I'vehad some really positive
experiences with children and itreally does make a difference
when you take the children outand you sit them down on the
ground and you talk about theland and how it feels and what
(34:51):
it gives and how they need toacknowledge and acknowledge it
in a concrete way, you know,learning how to offer gifts to
that land.
The impact I've seen adifference.
I think that's part of whywe're facing a different
attitude with the lands, people,because these are the people
(35:12):
that were children when we firsttook over the elementary school
in our community and we changedtone of the instruction, you
know, to make them aware thatthey're Cree people and I, being
a Cree person, meant you needto know how you fit and how the
(35:32):
land takes care of you.
Part of that was part of thecurriculum, has been ever since.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
That's wonderful.
That's such a good example ofhow, when we understand who we
are and our teachings and thenwhen we make decisions for our
community and for the lands,it's infused with that and to go
against what conventionally ishappening all around us
off-reserve and in neighboringcommunities.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, I think since the late 1970s, as part of our
healing process, the resurgenceor the revival of Cree
ceremonies.
Those Cree ceremonies are soconnected to the land.
You know when you have a pipeceremony, sitting on the grass
(36:20):
is so much more connecting tothe pulse of that land.
You know you can't avoid it.
It touches you and impacts youas you sit there that prayer
takes on a different tonealtogether.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Harry, thank you so much for sharing all of these
stories and anecdotes andteachings and experiences with
us.
Is there something that you'dreally like to get across?
As far as you know, buildingthese relationships, building
bridges and trying to halt someof the more harmful practices
that are impacting our lands.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
You know, what I really desire for is for our
neighbors to feel a sense ofsecurity that we mean them no
harm.
We want to be good neighbors.
I've been practicing thatpersonally.
Just you know my own way ofdoing things, by inviting groups
(37:19):
onto the reserve and justtaking them around and
introducing them and lettingthem see Muskeg is a good place,
we're good people and we'resmart, we know lots of stuff.
Deal with that sense of fearthat our neighbors have of us
(37:40):
and then we can talk that ourneighbors have of us.
And then we can talk.
You know, once we can starttalking, then there's no holding
us back from finding a way tolive together.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Oh, I couldn't agree more with that.
I have a friend who has a lotof concerns and lives on a farm
and, you know, invited the localMLA out to walk the coulee and
just have a conversation.
They were completely at oddspolitically with decisions that
were being made that impact theland and it's so easy to just
lash out or just not attemptthose conversations because
(38:16):
you're so far on the spectrum.
But she invited him and theywent for a walk and they didn't.
You know, they don't see eye toeye, but it was again about
being human to human, walkingthe land, having a conversation,
trying to understand eachother's worldview, point of view
, try to see where there is somespace for even just dialogue,
(38:36):
even just respectful dialogue onissues in which they disagree.
And I do think it's importantthat we practice those skills as
well, right when we're talking,because people are threatened
with their livelihood and it'sreal concerns.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, we always make a treaty day.
Treaty day is we always inviteour neighbors to come and be
part of treaty day and we treatthem like real special guests.
Invite our neighbors to comeand be part of Treaty Day and we
treat them like real specialguests.
You know, and some of them youcan just see their nervous
(39:17):
twitch, but usually by the endof the day you know they've
realized.
You know, what am I afraid of?
There's nothing.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
These are people that want to be friends.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yes, exactly you just have to keep plugging away at
that thinking.
Confrontation, anger don'tusually lead to dialogue.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Exactly.
Well, I think this is such afitting conversation for our
podcast.
It's called bridging relationsand and we're really looking to,
um, yeah, how can we, how canwe find some common ground?
How can we have thesediscussions, um, that are
different ways of of existingand being on the land and food
production, and um, there's somany interesting people that
(40:02):
we've talked to that havedifferent perspectives, and so
the conversations have.
I've learned so much, and I'velearned so much from you today,
harry.
Is there anything else that Ihaven't asked you that you feel
is important to share?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
No, I don't think so.
I think this has been a goodconversation and I want to thank
you for that.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Thank you so much, harry, and I just wanted to end
by um, really acknowledging yourthe saskatoon berry bushes, uh,
that you brought up and how,and you said like, uh, we didn't
know we were poor because wewere rich in berries and I'm
finding now.
Uh, because of everything we'vetalked about, I do a lot of food
gathering, as much as I can, uhwith with where I'm at in my
knowledge journey.
(40:41):
But Saskatoon's, you know,aren't always easy, or
somebody's you know been to thebush before I've gotten there,
and so they're not.
I'm not always getting themwhen I want, and that's the
thing.
When you're not growing, youknow, or cultivating them when
you're gathering in the wild.
There's all of these differentvariables and wild Saskatoon's
are my absolute favorite foodand I didn't get out this past
(41:02):
summer to collect my own, and afriend of mine dropped off six
large bags of wild Saskatoons asa gift and that was the richest
, most valued gift that.
I've received in a long time,and every time I take a bag of
that frozen Saskatoon bag out ofmy freezer for, you know, my
(41:23):
breakfast or whatever I alwaysthink of that person and I just
have such gratitude.
But so I I really resonate withthe richness in berries.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
You know, we're supposed to be the sharing
culture.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So we tease the old ladies back home?
Yeah, we tell them.
When we ask you where theberries are, where are the
raspberries, and all you do isyou kind of twitch your nose in
a direction, right, I?
Speaker 1 (41:52):
know, twitch their nose.
They don't even point theirlips because they don't want to
be too specific.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
No, not even the lips Right.
I know Over there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
It's funny, I love our people that way Over there
somewhere.
It's funny, I love our peoplethat way.
Harry, thank you so much forsharing and for being with me
this afternoon to have thisconversation.
I really enjoyed it and allthat you had to share.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, and keep doing the good work.
That's very important.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Thank you, thank you, same to you, thank you, take
care.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Thank you.
Same to you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Take care.
This is the Bridging RelationsPodcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time.
Funding for this project hasbeen provided by Agriculture and
Agri-Food Canada through theAgricultural Climate Solutions
(42:42):
Living Labs Program.
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