July 9, 2025 • 30 mins
Title:
Supervision Lies, Noncompetes, and 1099 Scams: Red Flags New Therapists Need to Know
Description:
Tired of being told you're not "supervisor material"? Burned out by unethical leadership and broken promises? This episode of Burnout & Bullshit is your unfiltered look at the red flags no one warned you about in grad school.
Host Kayla Schubert-Wirth, LCSW, sits down with Samantha Willi, LPCC-S, a licensed therapist and group practice owner in Ohio, to unpack the shady side of community mental health and private practice—including:
✅ Being denied supervision training with the excuse, “You’ll never be a supervisor.”
✅ Getting forced to stay late in pitch-black buildings—because “the schedule matters more.”
✅ Learning how many group practices misuse the 1099 contractor label (and why it’s a legal mess).
If you're a therapist navigating burnout, toxic work environments, or the confusing world of W2 vs. 1099 roles, this episode is a must-listen.
Key Topics:
- Therapist burnout and ethical supervision
- Noncompete clauses and legal red flags in private practice
- What every early-career therapist should know about contractor roles (1099 vs W2)
- How to advocate for yourself and build a values-driven career in mental health
- Creating safe, affirming, and authentic workplaces for therapists and clients
About the Guest:
Samantha Willi, LPCC-S, is the owner of CLE Counseling and Wellness Center, where she leads with transparency and authenticity. She supervises interns and licensed clinicians, fights against unethical systems, and helps build sustainable careers in the mental health field.
Website: counselinginthecle.com
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Burned out by broken systems? Let’s build a practice that actually works for you.
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This podcast includes personal opinions and experiences shared by guests and anonymous contributors. All identifying details may be changed to protect confidentiality. These stories are intended for educational and storytelling purposes and are not meant to defame, accuse, or harm any person or organization. Any resemblance to real persons or entities is purely coincidental.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MS (00:00):
Awesome .
Hello, Sam.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday on Burnout and Bullshit
Yay, Thank you for having me.
Yeah, I also just learned aboutSam that, like me, she is a
chaos creator in local Facebookgroups my favorite pastime,
actually so I was very excitedwhen I hear that I'm always like
yes, another one.
So welcome, so right.
(00:21):
I kind of just like gettingdown to it immediately.
So, like you know what's astory from your career that
still pisses you off.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (00:28):
So in when I was at community agency
you know you had to do your timethere and spend however much
time getting shit on all thethings I had the option to do an
EMDR training, which I decidedI wanted to do and at the same
time was the third part.
So in Ohio I know it'sdifferent.
(00:50):
I think in Pennsylvania andOhio you have to do, we have to
have so many hours ofsupervision training in order to
be able to apply to get oursupervision endorsement.
So during that time the EMDRtraining overlapped with the
same my, the prepaid supervisiontraining, and I had been like,
hey, like this is, is there's?
You know, it's like a $50difference.
If I have to split this up andpick a different day, is there
any way that maybe, like I coulduse like one of my
(01:12):
reimbursements for this?
And I was told no, because Iwould never be a supervisor.
So there was no point in megoing to the supervision
training because I would neverbe a supervisor.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (01:21):
Damn no, let's just like like, fuck
you, sam.
You, sam, like no, you're nevergoing to be a supervisor.
Now, I always think this is afun question too.
When I hear this fuckingbullshit, it's like what do you
do right now, sam?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (01:33):
so started a whole internship
program at our practice, took ondependently licensed clinicians
, initially started supervisingpretty much from the time I left
the community agency, startedsupervising and then started our
internship program and havebeen supervising interns
independently licensedclinicians for six years now
seven years.
I'm gonna say mic drop,motherfuckers and, to be fair,
(01:56):
the agency I used to be, I usedto work at, got shut down, is no
longer in business and now shewas forced to retire and is like
living some life off the gridor some shit like that.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (02:05):
Fuck , okay.
So this is just going to like.
Okay, this perfect save way.
So like what unethical or liketoxic behavior did you?
Fucking witness, and she'slaughing already.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (02:13):
So so my number one while I was there.
So we got a lot of boardfunding.
The county we were in hadsignificant amounts of money
coming in from the board andthere was all sorts of like.
You need to document thatyou're seeing this person from
this time to this time becausethe board's paying for it, even
if you're driving during thattime, especially when it came to
seeing kids in schools, thatwas like the go-to like no, like
(02:34):
, you have to see this moneystill and it has to be
documented this way.
I mean, it doesn't matterwhether or not it was
face-to-face time, but literallyI think it was my first within
my first year there the personwho was my direct supervisor was
telling a client that shedidn't believe in bisexuality.
It didn't exist, it's not real.
You either like one or theother at the end, that's all.
(02:56):
That's the.
Those are the only options.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (02:57):
A supervisor.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (02:59):
Correct Yep, yep, yep, and school lived,
lived and died on that hill.
Yep, yep, yep, and lived anddied on that hill.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (03:04):
Like how the fuck, I feel like
there's so many layers here.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (03:08):
Jesus Christ, yeah, I know I mentioned
before too like there was atime so during one of our power
outages, all of the supervisorswere out of the building.
So on Tuesdays and Thursdays wewould work until 8 pm, and so
it was on one of those days, allthe supervisors were gone.
It was getting dark, there wasno sign that the power was going
(03:29):
to be coming back on, and sothe receptionists were freaking
out, everybody's freaking out.
So I was, I think, the longestterm person there and I was like
, well, why don't we just calllike the last clients of the
night and kind of work our wayback and start canceling some
people?
Because, like the seven o'clockpeople, it's going to be too
dark, like it's not going to besafe to see these people?
And the case managementsupervisor showed up in the mid,
(03:54):
like towards the end, like alittle bit later, and got super
heated all upset.
Why would you do that?
Like we need to see thesepeople either way.
And I was like, and I don'tunderstand, it's going to be
literally dark in this building.
It's ohio, like in the middleof winter.
It's going to be dark, it'sdark at like 4 30 yeah.
So I was like there were no,like how the building was set up
(04:18):
, like the offices may have beenable to be light for a while,
but like the hallways were verylong and very dark.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (04:24):
I'm like there's there's literally
no way to do this and let meguess this place marketed
themselves as a trauma informedagency so at that point, yes,
but is part of a hospital.
They were part of a hospitalsystem so like do they just
expect you to, like I don't know?
Like have a fucking candleburning or like use your phone
as the flashlight, like in themiddle of fucking woods, and do
therapy?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (04:44):
like and this apparently was not the last
time, because some of thepeople that work for me now have
also worked there um, and thoseinstances happened afterwards
and they were forced to stay inthe dark damn like how is that a
safe be legal?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (05:01):
see , I need a lawyer.
Like, yeah, is this like aplace to that?
So this is the place that shutdown and this was.
I'm very I'm guessing a lot oflike pre-licensed internship
folks would probably like theywould pull them and it would
just be even more of aclusterfuck yeah, and, and so we
.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (05:19):
When I first started there and even,
like, I guess, towards the end,so it was the highest paying
agency because it was part of ahospital system in the county,
but clearly so we ended up withpeople who stayed a little bit
longer, but still, almosteverybody was still pre-licensed
.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (05:33):
What were you getting paid then?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (05:34):
Sorry, I'm just like throwing you right
on the spot, so I started at, Ithink it was like either 1750
or 1775 an hour, which is like afun story that I tell all of my
clinicians when they come andstart for me, and I was like I
got it.
However, this is where westarted and even for now, like I
think averaging still in thearea for us for independently
(05:55):
licensed you know, supervisorpositions is still, I think,
like $60,000.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (06:00):
My and that just makes me laugh I
never did the breakdown of that.
I'm just kind of scared toright now to do it because it's
probably less than that.
But my first job out of gradschool with a license so I'm
social work, so we can get likean LSW here in PA was $28,000.
And I thought I was hot shit.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (06:16):
Like yeah , I think ours.
I think ours ended up beinglike $35,000 or $36,000.
Damn girl, you are richcompared to me.
Yeah, again, they paid the mostin the entire area, so all the
other offers I had weresomewhere in like the high 20s
low 30s?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (06:32):
And were you also, like you said
you were, driving around forschools?
Was that for that too?
Right, yeah, did you have to dolike the mileage reimbursement
I did?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (06:39):
Yeah, so they had was.
I started in one schooldistrict and then somehow ended
up like moving around multipleand at one point I was going to
two school districts within oneday.
So I would spend like the firstfour hours at one school school
district, drive like 25 minutesto the other school district,
(06:59):
stay there for half for likefour hours, drive 25, 30 minutes
back to the office and thenstay at the office until 8pm.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (07:06):
Jesus Christ and like how sustainable
was that?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (07:10):
So I really enjoyed the school stuff.
Come you know, now that I knowthat I really need a lot of
diversity in my day, makes sensethat I really enjoyed it, but
not very.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (07:25):
I feel so called out right now
when you just said that I waslike fuck, that's why I would do
so good when I was going tolike eight schools and running
around like a fucking psychopath, Like okay, thanks, Sam, A
click moment.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (07:37):
Yeah, it took a while and I was like,
well, this makes a lot of senseas to why things were really
like.
I enjoyed seeing the differentage ranges and different you
know different settings and likeinteracting with all these
different teachers and stuff.
And then I was like, oh, got it.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (07:52):
Well now I that just happened,
literally just not even likefucking, like this.
I was like, oh, fuck, okay,cool, okay, well then, tim my
therapist, we will process thatlater.
Thank you, we'll just add thatto the target plan for EMDR.
Tim my therapist, we willprocess that later.
Thank you, we'll just add thatto the target plan for EMDR.
Okay, so when, like, did youthen go into private practice
like on your own, or what wasthat kind of shift like?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (08:12):
So I transitioned to working
part-time while still working atthe agency.
So I had a Monday throughThursday, typical like schedule
and I would work one Friday amonth there.
Well, the other Fridays andthen Saturdays I would pick up
working at a different privatepractice to like kind of get a
feel for things and see in themidst of me trying to figure out
how to do like insurancecredentialing and all of the
(08:33):
other backend by myself, and Iwas there for like a year and a
half ish or so and was slowlyworking on mine.
And then COVID was like theperfect opportunity to just
transition everybody over tomines.
Yeah, what?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (08:46):
so ?
What is something to like?
Did grads wow?
Words are really hard sometimes.
What's a hill?
I feel like you have a couplehills, like many of us do, that
you will die on and fight for.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (08:57):
She's like smiling and like shaking
her head right now she's likewhere do?
I start Mm-hmm.
So.
So, like I said on like thebeing the chaos leader, my
number one so, like we did start, I was a 1099 at a practice and
when I started, mine started asa 1099 practice and we're there
, for we were there for a while,but my goal was always to be
able to figure out how to do themost I could for the people
(09:20):
coming in.
I love everybody that works forme very, very much.
I think they're great and Iwant them to be able to have
like a sustainable life.
So trying to be able to offerhealth insurance was, like my
number one goal.
Like this is something that'ssuper important.
We all really need it.
Like, how can we make thisobtainable?
And so that was like the finalshift.
We finally made the shift overthanks to I would say, thanks to
(09:42):
Katie May and Stabilize andScale had all of the things in
place to be able to do that.
And then, as that's kind ofhappened, looking at what what
places offer is 1099s oh mydog's here I'm hitting his tail
but 1099s versus W2s places, andyou want to talk a little bit
(10:03):
about that.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (10:04):
Feel like I know I feel before we
got started too.
She like went off on 1099 andw2, so and I feel like this is
important because a lot ofpeople listening don't fucking
understand this yeah.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (10:13):
So and really like I think my go-to for
everyone in trying to explainit is that being a 1099 means
that the business has zeroresponsibility for you.
It makes no difference.
Like I have friends who aresupervisors at 1099 practices
and like they supervise otherlike supervisees who are also
1099.
So I was like I just want youto know like this business is
(10:36):
taking zero responsibility andthey're any liability.
Like you are directlysupervising them and they do not
.
Like they are not part of thisat all and that's, I think, the
main key.
Like they don't have to pay thetaxes, they don't have to hold
any liability for you.
Like you are no workman's compif you get hurt there, you're
hot and you're supposed to beworking as your own business
(10:56):
under that, and that, I think,is the key part.
That doesn't exist.
We've had people like it aroundhere, um, who are like offering
free trainings to people thatare working for them as teens,
or like sign-on bonuses, orwe're doing, oh my gosh, uh,
we're paying for all of yourmarketing and we're paying for
all of these things, and I'mlike that's, that is not I'm
giving you a computer.
(11:17):
If you're a 1099, you cannotgive 1099 fucking anything yeah,
um, and I said one of the oneswas like an emdr trainer who,
like, is training all of their,all of their 1099s for free and
then providing free consultationand doing all these things,
which I mean maybe you can finda way around.
But, like, realistically, ifyou're offering that as a perk,
(11:39):
that's not what that is like.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (11:41):
There are no perks for 1099s not and
that, and that sounds cold, butthat's the truth, though, and I
think I don't know who I wastalking to it may have been an
accountant or a lawyer orsomething and he was like the
best way to think about a 1099is you hire a plumber.
The plumber comes to the housewith all of their supplies, they
don't need any guidance, theycan do their job and they
(12:02):
fucking leave.
And that's I think too.
When I think about that, it'slike oh yeah, like a true 1099
is they have all of theirsupplies, meaning, too, they
don't need hours to beindependently licensed.
They have everything they need.
They leave and they come.
They leave and they come.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (12:16):
Yeah, and the idea of having like I've
seen a lot lately who are likewe're hiring employees, no,
you're not.
You literally just said you'rehiring a 1099 and 1099 is not an
employee, or like offeringfull-time positions.
Well, you can't dictate whatthat looks like.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (12:34):
Hold on.
I think we really need to saythis right, If you are a 1099,
they cannot dictate yourschedule.
They cannot say you need toattend a staff meeting.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (12:44):
Yeah, there are no.
They literally cannot doanything.
They can suggest things, solike if they prefer that you
document in a certain way, andthey're like, hey, this is
because of this insuranceregulation.
They can suggest that, but theycan't force you to do anything,
a note saying your notes haveto be done.
(13:04):
A real, a real sticky situation,isn't that Uh-huh?
Especially when we're talkingabout insurance that have the
requirements on how quicklythose notes need to be done.
It puts you in a really weirdposition when you're like, well,
like you're not going to beable to get paid for this
service that you're providingbecause you're not following the
insurance guidelines, which arealso my guidelines.
But I can't tell you what to do.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (13:27):
I just feel like to me it's so
messy Having a 1099,.
I had a group practice for asmall amount of time and I just
was like I'm putting everyone W2because that's just less
anxiety for me.
And I think too is like I wasjust like, oh, it's so nice Now
I don't have to worry about allthis extra bullshit.
And there's so many fuckingpractices.
And you and I too, and I wishwe had it recorded when we first
(13:47):
came on and we started talkingabout when people in Facebook
groups were like, oh, we'rehiring.
And you said to you're like 10and nine or W2.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, I dothat shit.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (13:56):
Yes, and I will.
Like I said I because I want tobe the one stirring the pot
always and don't want to be theone getting kicked out, you know
.
But I will.
Now that you can commentanonymously, the whole world can
know I comment anonymously onevery single one of those posts.
When they're doing or sayingsomething that does not meet
that criteria, I am alwayscommenting 1099 or W-2 and
(14:19):
sharing a cute little image ifthey say 1099, but they're
calling people employees, alwaysposting a cute little image of
the difference between 10s andw's twos well, I just comment
myself.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (14:30):
I should probably start being
anonymous more, but I feel likethey'd be like bitch.
This is kayla maybe.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (14:35):
Well, now they're all gonna know it's me.
But it's fine, it doesn'tmatter, they're not no, no, I
think I've created enough,enough other little like chaos
minions around here who are allgoing to do the same thing
Because they all know because Ihave no nothing to hide, and
what those look like.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (14:51):
So and I think that's the thing
too.
Is that nothing to hide?
Right?
Like talking with you?
Right, I'm friends with KatieMae?
Right, there's nothing to hide?
Right?
We're kind of like, hey, hereit is.
And I think those are thepractices too, that like, when
you start to ask questions andthey start to like get real
defensive and weird and just tointerview, like they're hiding
something, people they're hidingalways like and we, I mean we
(15:13):
have a pretty like.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (15:14):
So we are commission-based still, because
I want to give some autonomy tomy staff still.
That's one of my goals.
So if they want to work, ourminimum is 24.
If they want to work 24, theycan work 24.
If they want to, if they feelthe capacity like and can do
more, they can do more.
Whatever they need, but to beable to offer that ability for
also what their financialsituation is and I mean we are
(15:34):
we have standards of what thatlooks like.
I will talk to all of themabout all of it.
I can come up with what, like,the average is for any given
time, based on what ourdemographics are like.
There's there.
There is nothing.
There is nothing to hide behind, because I can give you all of
that information and we can havea real conversation about it.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (15:55):
Boom , I love it.
No, I'm here for it.
No, cause I want moretherapists.
Right, granted, if you're ingrad school, right, if you're a
pre-licensed therapist, ifyou're in community mental
health and coming into thisfield or in a toxic practice
like I, I want people to havetheir brains just start like
turning a little bit right orknowing like oh, sam's in ohio,
(16:15):
maybe if I like reach out to samon facebook people, she will
definitely respond to you.
I can just tell already likeshe will respond to you.
I think anyone who's been onthe podcast if reach out to them
, they will literally likerespond to you.
But like ask people like hey,do you know about this practice?
Like I need help with this andwe all have so much random
information in our brains.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (16:33):
And we're just like here you go.
Yeah Well, and one of the otherthings like, as I know, I
mentioned like we've had somepeople leave because they don't
want the W-2 structure and theywould rather be a contractor
somewhere.
Fine, that's fine, but like oneof my go-tos for them is always
like let me know if there areplaces like that you're looking
at, because I do know a lot ofpeople and if I think something
is shady, I'll tell yousomething shady and I'd rather
(16:54):
like, even if you're not here, Istill want what's best for you.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (16:57):
So yep, yeah, I feel like I'm that
person in in the area, I thinkjust last week, four people that
I never talked to reached outto me and they're like hey, you
know anything about thesepractices?
And I'm like I don't.
And I literally said I do not.
But give me a couple hours andI will reach out to some people
and let me find out.
I reached out to like four orfive people.
I got stuff.
I was like here you go.
And she was like, oh, myfucking God, thank you so much,
(17:26):
because we're just like we needto leave this place and this
like cycle just continues andcontinues.
A fucking chaos.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (17:30):
Yeah, no, and and I think we've had a
couple of us at the practice towho are like longer term
clinicians have like gone fromlike community agency to
community agency to see ifthings were better and like
that's still kind of shitty.
And going from like privatepractice private practice and
that's still kind of shitty.
(17:50):
And going from like privatepractice private practice and
that's still kind of shitty andlike what I mean, some of the
big ones in the area are notgreat places either.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (17:54):
Um , even if they're claiming to be
the same for our area folks Iknow there's a lot of you
listening.
Wait, I have a question, sam,because I just like wrote it
down and my brain went therewhat are your thoughts on
non-competes?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (18:04):
Uh, I think that it's really silly.
So even even before, like oursingular one that I had was like
just don't, don't, don't openup in the suite next to us, like
that's it.
Like you can stay in ourbuilding, just like, go to a
different floor, I don't care.
I feel like that just makesthings a little less confusing.
Outside of that, like I don'tgive a shit, like, do whatever
you want to do.
I also fully believe in clientautonomy.
(18:27):
They can follow you whereverthey want to go, anytime Makes
no difference.
I think the there's some someblack and white thinking on what
that looks like for people,sometimes business wise but I
(18:49):
mean I they can do whatever theywant to do.
If, if you build a relationshipwith someone, why would you
want to leave that person?
Exactly why, yeah, why wouldyou want to leave?
Yeah, and and if they're?
If I mean I picked where mypractice is based on the
location and like conveniencefor clients.
So I'm not.
I wouldn't be surprised if youdid the same again.
Just like, go down the hall, goupstairs.
I mean our entire, our entire.
(19:09):
Like there's four officebuildings that are right there
and they're all full of therapyoffices like therapists,
psychologists, like you name it,they're all in the building.
So, like I don't care, you canstill be here, please be here I.
We just did a.
I put together a therapistmeetup a couple weeks ago at our
office and we had people fromour building, from the building
next door, like all sorts oftherapists come together because
(19:30):
I think, again, we'redefinitely way more powerful as
a whole than individually andthere's more than enough clients
for everybody to be okay.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (19:39):
So and I think that's the that's
the weird part too is becausesince, since starting this
podcast, I've had so many peoplereach out to me, Not just
locally but like throughout thestates, and the amount of
lawsuits that people have beentelling me about blow my fucking
mind.
Like I talked to someonerecently where she had to pay
$1,500 for a lawsuit because ofa private practice owner, what
(20:04):
Like to leave a practice,practice.
There was someone else I talkedto.
They had, um, I'm pretty surethey were a w-2 employee and in
their contract the only time tobreak it was in a two-week
window to break your contract.
That's fucking nuts.
That's fucking nuts.
Sam just did the like you knowwhen dog do the huh, like to the
side, look like looking at me,like wait what the fuck did you
just say I can't even, I don'teven know what to say about that
(20:27):
.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (20:28):
Yeah, I well.
And here, like as a businessowner, why am I going to spend
money that I could be help likeputting towards my staff on
fighting something?
That's really fucking silly?
Like, if you're not happy here,please go.
Exactly Like I're not happyhere, please go, Exactly Right.
Like I don't need you.
I mean, no, that sounds realshitty, but like I don't need
(20:48):
you to be here.
Like you can go and do whateveryou want to do.
It's fine.
So I'm definitely not spendingany money to try and keep you
here so that way you can bemiserable here.
Like what?
The?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (20:58):
fuck , oh yeah, like this, like I I
said, the stories that peoplemessage me daily, it is like,
and I'm always like wait, what?
Like every time I'm like waitwhat, what?
And they like it's just neverfucking ending.
And I would really love, like Isaid, I need to find a lawyer
because there's like I wouldlove to expose these assholes.
I really fucking would see.
I see sam's like brain rightnow.
(21:19):
She's like huh like right, likehow the fuck do you expose this
?
Because that's the thing islike these things are going to
keep happening.
Why?
Because they prey on newtherapists, right.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (21:32):
They prey on people who's been in
community mental health andwanting to leave and they're
showing them this quote-unquotebetter life, right, and it's not
better and I think because Iknow one of the things I had was
like the bullshit that comesfrom like the programs and all
of these, like universities andstuff, but I think like this is
like this is an instilled beliefthat comes from that point like
of just like we're gonna dowhatever we want to do, because
(21:55):
like we are better, like we'reahead of wherever you are in
your career, and I feel likethat really is like that is just
continuously seen time aftertime I know my brain's like how
the fuck I know I was like Ireally need to get a lawyer so I
can figure out.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW (22:09):
Anyone knows a lawyer who could
potentially help me take downsome fucking assholes?
Please mess, because there's.
And, like I said, in this dustit's not, it's not just in where
I live, in the lehigh valleyright people think of kayla.
She's stirring the pot, she'sdoing this.
No, sam's in fucking ohio, it'sliterally everywhere, it's
everywhere like come on, peoplegrow the fuck up assholes.
(22:30):
I'm all fired up this morning.
I don't know why.
That's okay, yeah, happyfucking.
I don't know what date iswednesday.
When it's wednesday, I guess,yeah, what?
Let me ask you this is thereany other bullshit that you
think that needs to be likeburned to the ground in this
field?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (22:45):
So I, the other live and die hill, is
that programs are garbage, theidea that people students have
to try and find their owninternships or that they need to
work at community agencies fortheir internships.
I mean, I think there are a lotof professors that are bullshit
or professors who work atpractices that prey on students
to bring them to their practice.
Especially, there is a practiceowner in our area who does that
(23:10):
.
But yeah, I mean, I think thatthose are like the other things
that I just don't like.
One of one of my therapists wastold by their professor that
because they were working andgoing to school, that they
couldn't possibly provide anyvalue to their clients.
Also said that EMDR is like youknow, it's cool, but she did
(23:31):
the training and she justdoesn't think that it's like
beneficial to clients in any way.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (23:35):
Cool , you know bottom up approach.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (23:38):
Yeah, no, not beneficial.
Who was the head of thedepartment who we had our
meeting for the quarter or forthe semester?
Hung up on us during our calland then I scheduled a call to
chat about what the fuck wasgoing on.
And then hung up on me duringour call Because she didn't like
(23:58):
what I had to say about theprogram, which was that very
clearly like.
We have lots of clinicians whohave gone through this program
here and all of them havereported similar things about
like things being overlooked orcomments being made or you know,
just like not necessarilyfeeling safe within the program.
And when that comment came out,she was like, well, that's not
anything that I've heard of.
(24:18):
I was like, well, I'm tellingyou, based on the people that
I've worked with and like acouple of years of experience
through your program, like thisis what I'm hearing.
And she was like, well, that'snot anything that I've ever
heard about before.
Bye, and like hung up.
And I was like, oh well, okthen I guess.
So thanks for not giving a shitabout any of these people who
are paying you money to come toyour school Also sounds like she
(24:44):
needs some like slow BLS tohelp regulate her nervous system
as well.
You know good possibility, butyou know EMDR doesn't.
It's just, it just doesn't work.
It doesn't do anything ever.
But I was like, I don't know, Iwould have been as a professor,
wouldn't you be like, yeah,that's so cool that you, as an
intern, are going to go learnthis really cool modality that
is like evidence-based and doesreally good things.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (25:02):
no , we're just gonna shit on it
instead so many people do somany people do assholes.
I'm right, I know.
Is there any advice that youwould give your younger self?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (25:15):
oh, probably so.
I've always been pretty feistyand it would probably be to like
, instead of trying to like, fitinto the mold, to just be the
feisty me and do whatever I wasgoing to do all along.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (25:29):
I feel that, and I feel like so
many people listening need tohear that, and I think that's
been the theme with everyfucking person who's been coming
on is just like you have to bea hellraiser yeah, and, like I
said, I've listened quite a fewof them now and like the like,
the tattoos and the hair color.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (25:47):
Like I worked for a hospital system so
that was like nope, you couldhave one pair of earrings and
you couldn't have any facialpiercings and your hair had to
be a natural color and you everytattoo had to be covered up.
So anytime people from from themain main campus would come to
us like I would need to knowahead of time.
So that way my hair was alwayslike on like the more um, red
(26:07):
version of you know redhead.
So I would have to like adjustmy hair and make sure that, like
I had socks and I had shoes andI had a sweater and like that,
everything, everything was to atee.
For when they showed up forthese meetings that way I like
checked the box of what, what Iwas supposed to be looking like
and in my head I'm like, but I'mliterally working with kids and
(26:29):
going to schools and likegetting on the ground and
playing, like doing all thesethings.
Who cares?
You love that shit.
Yeah, that's what I was like II don't know, but like I'm
pretty sure this child doesn'tcare whether or not my hair is
blonde or brown or purple or redor blue or green, they don't
care.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (26:48):
They don't care.
And I hear, and I feel that somuch because I usually have fun
hair too.
I just don't have fun hair fora little bit now, since having a
baby.
It's going to change, though Ipromise it will be fun for the
teen conference.
I promise you that.
And I had purple hair when Iworked in a school, like bright,
fucking purple.
And the one teacher was like oh, do you want to go see the
therapist?
And he was like no, not seeingthat bitch.
(27:10):
And she was like do you want togo see the one with the purple
hair?
I was the same one.
She didn't realize he's likeyeah, I'll go see her.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (27:17):
Like how about that connection being real
, yeah, may actually get yousomewhere, and so, and that's
like, really, since that point,that's been since starting in
the practice, like I, we havevery few stipulations on what
we're going to do.
I got into a Facebook argumentwith Facebook argument and I
think maybe the the exchangeabout what people are wearing at
(27:37):
the office and like whether ornot sports attire is appropriate
, and I'm like, well, like I'min Cleveland, I'm a Cavs fan.
Like our office is allCleveland, all Cleveland sports.
Like that's just who we are.
So I'm like, yeah, you canguarantee all winter I am
showing up in some kind of Cavshoodie and some leggings, like
that's what it's going to be.
And they were like, oh, I can'tbelieve that.
(27:58):
Like, that's like, why?
Like what if someone isoffended by what you're wearing?
And I was like, well, likewe're literally CLE counseling.
Like if they don't likeCleveland and they're offended
by something Cleveland related,they're in the wrong fucking
office.
Like I shouldn't be here anyway.
Yeah, like then they're goingto walk into our waiting room
and they're also going to beoffended.
(28:18):
Like, again, not the place forthem, right?
So so, and that's been like ourpolicy since then.
Like I don't care what yourhair looks like I don't care.
I just don't.
I don't care.
I don't care about any of thethings.
I will almost always be in sometype of sweatshirt or like
T-shirt, leggings or capris, andprobably barefoot, walking
around the office, and that'sjust what it's going to be, so I
(28:40):
don't expect anything more ofanyone else.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (28:43):
And right, and I think too right,
that's just being, it's beingyourself, it's being comfortable
, and we know, right, like as atrauma therapist, right, that's
also showing safety, that peoplecan be themselves, and it's
amazing, when people feelcomfortable and safe in their
environments, the beauty ofhealing, that can fucking happen
for therapists too.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (29:01):
And absolutely and I think that
that's like as we're like one ofmy interns right now I love her
very much and she has been,she's been working at one of the
hospital systems as a nurse andlike feeling how she feels,
like she needs to show up thereand like in our supervision and
the things and she's like I knowthis isn't very professional I
was like, have you fucking metus?
Like we are, but also like thisis still a safe space for you
(29:24):
to show up and be you and like Idon't care, like if you need
something from me that's notrelated to clients, also let me
know, because this is this isyour space too.
Like this is a safe space forthem.
This is a safe space for youlike I.
Why can we not all, like youcan show up as a human?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (29:43):
why can't we be friends right right
like?
That's what I feel like come onlike jesus.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (29:48):
We can.
We can all show upauthentically like.
That is one of our like maingoals is to show up
authentically in every capacity.
That's what like from the ripwhen we're interviewing people
for internships, like I'm goingto say fuck a lot.
So like if that's not you, thisis probably not our place.
If you're going to be offended,probably not the place for you.
That's just how pretty muchevery meeting, every supervision
(30:10):
, every interaction we have,that's probably how it's going
to go and too right.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (30:12):
And I think when I say this too, I
feel like I probably got somepanties in a bunch by saying
this to people right, we're notcursing at you, we're not saying
fuck you, we're saying oh, oh,fuck shit, like we're talking
about something.
I think that's the difference,too, when people hear oh, we're
cursing, no, I'm not cursing atfucking clients, right, like
it's just in our language, andhow we're interacting with
people, like, oh, yeah, that wasreally fucked up.
Yeah, people.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (30:33):
Mm-hmm, god damn it, but it hits all.
Awesome .
Hello, Sam.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday on Burnout and Bullshit
Yay, Thank you for having me.
Yeah, I also just learned aboutSam that, like me, she is a
chaos creator in local Facebookgroups my favorite pastime,
actually so I was very excitedwhen I hear that I'm always like
yes, another one.
So welcome, so right.
(00:21):
I kind of just like gettingdown to it immediately.
So, like you know what's astory from your career that
still pisses you off.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (00:28):
So in when I was at community agency
you know you had to do your timethere and spend however much
time getting shit on all thethings I had the option to do an
EMDR training, which I decidedI wanted to do and at the same
time was the third part.
So in Ohio I know it'sdifferent.
(00:50):
I think in Pennsylvania andOhio you have to do, we have to
have so many hours ofsupervision training in order to
be able to apply to get oursupervision endorsement.
So during that time the EMDRtraining overlapped with the
same my, the prepaid supervisiontraining, and I had been like,
hey, like this is, is there's?
You know, it's like a $50difference.
If I have to split this up andpick a different day, is there
any way that maybe, like I coulduse like one of my
(01:12):
reimbursements for this?
And I was told no, because Iwould never be a supervisor.
So there was no point in megoing to the supervision
training because I would neverbe a supervisor.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (01:21):
Damn no, let's just like like, fuck
you, sam.
You, sam, like no, you're nevergoing to be a supervisor.
Now, I always think this is afun question too.
When I hear this fuckingbullshit, it's like what do you
do right now, sam?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (01:33):
so started a whole internship
program at our practice, took ondependently licensed clinicians
, initially started supervisingpretty much from the time I left
the community agency, startedsupervising and then started our
internship program and havebeen supervising interns
independently licensedclinicians for six years now
seven years.
I'm gonna say mic drop,motherfuckers and, to be fair,
(01:56):
the agency I used to be, I usedto work at, got shut down, is no
longer in business and now shewas forced to retire and is like
living some life off the gridor some shit like that.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (02:05):
Fuck , okay.
So this is just going to like.
Okay, this perfect save way.
So like what unethical or liketoxic behavior did you?
Fucking witness, and she'slaughing already.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (02:13):
So so my number one while I was there.
So we got a lot of boardfunding.
The county we were in hadsignificant amounts of money
coming in from the board andthere was all sorts of like.
You need to document thatyou're seeing this person from
this time to this time becausethe board's paying for it, even
if you're driving during thattime, especially when it came to
seeing kids in schools, thatwas like the go-to like no, like
(02:34):
, you have to see this moneystill and it has to be
documented this way.
I mean, it doesn't matterwhether or not it was
face-to-face time, but literallyI think it was my first within
my first year there the personwho was my direct supervisor was
telling a client that shedidn't believe in bisexuality.
It didn't exist, it's not real.
You either like one or theother at the end, that's all.
(02:56):
That's the.
Those are the only options.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (02:57):
A supervisor.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (02:59):
Correct Yep, yep, yep, and school lived,
lived and died on that hill.
Yep, yep, yep, and lived anddied on that hill.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (03:04):
Like how the fuck, I feel like
there's so many layers here.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (03:08):
Jesus Christ, yeah, I know I mentioned
before too like there was atime so during one of our power
outages, all of the supervisorswere out of the building.
So on Tuesdays and Thursdays wewould work until 8 pm, and so
it was on one of those days, allthe supervisors were gone.
It was getting dark, there wasno sign that the power was going
(03:29):
to be coming back on, and sothe receptionists were freaking
out, everybody's freaking out.
So I was, I think, the longestterm person there and I was like
, well, why don't we just calllike the last clients of the
night and kind of work our wayback and start canceling some
people?
Because, like the seven o'clockpeople, it's going to be too
dark, like it's not going to besafe to see these people?
And the case managementsupervisor showed up in the mid,
(03:54):
like towards the end, like alittle bit later, and got super
heated all upset.
Why would you do that?
Like we need to see thesepeople either way.
And I was like, and I don'tunderstand, it's going to be
literally dark in this building.
It's ohio, like in the middleof winter.
It's going to be dark, it'sdark at like 4 30 yeah.
So I was like there were no,like how the building was set up
(04:18):
, like the offices may have beenable to be light for a while,
but like the hallways were verylong and very dark.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (04:24):
I'm like there's there's literally
no way to do this and let meguess this place marketed
themselves as a trauma informedagency so at that point, yes,
but is part of a hospital.
They were part of a hospitalsystem so like do they just
expect you to, like I don't know?
Like have a fucking candleburning or like use your phone
as the flashlight, like in themiddle of fucking woods, and do
therapy?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (04:44):
like and this apparently was not the last
time, because some of thepeople that work for me now have
also worked there um, and thoseinstances happened afterwards
and they were forced to stay inthe dark damn like how is that a
safe be legal?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (05:01):
see , I need a lawyer.
Like, yeah, is this like aplace to that?
So this is the place that shutdown and this was.
I'm very I'm guessing a lot oflike pre-licensed internship
folks would probably like theywould pull them and it would
just be even more of aclusterfuck yeah, and, and so we
.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (05:19):
When I first started there and even,
like, I guess, towards the end,so it was the highest paying
agency because it was part of ahospital system in the county,
but clearly so we ended up withpeople who stayed a little bit
longer, but still, almosteverybody was still pre-licensed
.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (05:33):
What were you getting paid then?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (05:34):
Sorry, I'm just like throwing you right
on the spot, so I started at, Ithink it was like either 1750
or 1775 an hour, which is like afun story that I tell all of my
clinicians when they come andstart for me, and I was like I
got it.
However, this is where westarted and even for now, like I
think averaging still in thearea for us for independently
(05:55):
licensed you know, supervisorpositions is still, I think,
like $60,000.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (06:00):
My and that just makes me laugh I
never did the breakdown of that.
I'm just kind of scared toright now to do it because it's
probably less than that.
But my first job out of gradschool with a license so I'm
social work, so we can get likean LSW here in PA was $28,000.
And I thought I was hot shit.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (06:16):
Like yeah , I think ours.
I think ours ended up beinglike $35,000 or $36,000.
Damn girl, you are richcompared to me.
Yeah, again, they paid the mostin the entire area, so all the
other offers I had weresomewhere in like the high 20s
low 30s?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (06:32):
And were you also, like you said
you were, driving around forschools?
Was that for that too?
Right, yeah, did you have to dolike the mileage reimbursement
I did?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (06:39):
Yeah, so they had was.
I started in one schooldistrict and then somehow ended
up like moving around multipleand at one point I was going to
two school districts within oneday.
So I would spend like the firstfour hours at one school school
district, drive like 25 minutesto the other school district,
(06:59):
stay there for half for likefour hours, drive 25, 30 minutes
back to the office and thenstay at the office until 8pm.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (07:06):
Jesus Christ and like how sustainable
was that?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (07:10):
So I really enjoyed the school stuff.
Come you know, now that I knowthat I really need a lot of
diversity in my day, makes sensethat I really enjoyed it, but
not very.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (07:25):
I feel so called out right now
when you just said that I waslike fuck, that's why I would do
so good when I was going tolike eight schools and running
around like a fucking psychopath, Like okay, thanks, Sam, A
click moment.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (07:37):
Yeah, it took a while and I was like,
well, this makes a lot of senseas to why things were really
like.
I enjoyed seeing the differentage ranges and different you
know different settings and likeinteracting with all these
different teachers and stuff.
And then I was like, oh, got it.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (07:52):
Well now I that just happened,
literally just not even likefucking, like this.
I was like, oh, fuck, okay,cool, okay, well then, tim my
therapist, we will process thatlater.
Thank you, we'll just add thatto the target plan for EMDR.
Tim my therapist, we willprocess that later.
Thank you, we'll just add thatto the target plan for EMDR.
Okay, so when, like, did youthen go into private practice
like on your own, or what wasthat kind of shift like?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (08:12):
So I transitioned to working
part-time while still working atthe agency.
So I had a Monday throughThursday, typical like schedule
and I would work one Friday amonth there.
Well, the other Fridays andthen Saturdays I would pick up
working at a different privatepractice to like kind of get a
feel for things and see in themidst of me trying to figure out
how to do like insurancecredentialing and all of the
(08:33):
other backend by myself, and Iwas there for like a year and a
half ish or so and was slowlyworking on mine.
And then COVID was like theperfect opportunity to just
transition everybody over tomines.
Yeah, what?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (08:46):
so ?
What is something to like?
Did grads wow?
Words are really hard sometimes.
What's a hill?
I feel like you have a couplehills, like many of us do, that
you will die on and fight for.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (08:57):
She's like smiling and like shaking
her head right now she's likewhere do?
I start Mm-hmm.
So.
So, like I said on like thebeing the chaos leader, my
number one so, like we did start, I was a 1099 at a practice and
when I started, mine started asa 1099 practice and we're there
, for we were there for a while,but my goal was always to be
able to figure out how to do themost I could for the people
(09:20):
coming in.
I love everybody that works forme very, very much.
I think they're great and Iwant them to be able to have
like a sustainable life.
So trying to be able to offerhealth insurance was, like my
number one goal.
Like this is something that'ssuper important.
We all really need it.
Like, how can we make thisobtainable?
And so that was like the finalshift.
We finally made the shift overthanks to I would say, thanks to
(09:42):
Katie May and Stabilize andScale had all of the things in
place to be able to do that.
And then, as that's kind ofhappened, looking at what what
places offer is 1099s oh mydog's here I'm hitting his tail
but 1099s versus W2s places, andyou want to talk a little bit
(10:03):
about that.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (10:04):
Feel like I know I feel before we
got started too.
She like went off on 1099 andw2, so and I feel like this is
important because a lot ofpeople listening don't fucking
understand this yeah.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (10:13):
So and really like I think my go-to for
everyone in trying to explainit is that being a 1099 means
that the business has zeroresponsibility for you.
It makes no difference.
Like I have friends who aresupervisors at 1099 practices
and like they supervise otherlike supervisees who are also
1099.
So I was like I just want youto know like this business is
(10:36):
taking zero responsibility andthey're any liability.
Like you are directlysupervising them and they do not
.
Like they are not part of thisat all and that's, I think, the
main key.
Like they don't have to pay thetaxes, they don't have to hold
any liability for you.
Like you are no workman's compif you get hurt there, you're
hot and you're supposed to beworking as your own business
(10:56):
under that, and that, I think,is the key part.
That doesn't exist.
We've had people like it aroundhere, um, who are like offering
free trainings to people thatare working for them as teens,
or like sign-on bonuses, orwe're doing, oh my gosh, uh,
we're paying for all of yourmarketing and we're paying for
all of these things, and I'mlike that's, that is not I'm
giving you a computer.
(11:17):
If you're a 1099, you cannotgive 1099 fucking anything yeah,
um, and I said one of the oneswas like an emdr trainer who,
like, is training all of their,all of their 1099s for free and
then providing free consultationand doing all these things,
which I mean maybe you can finda way around.
But, like, realistically, ifyou're offering that as a perk,
(11:39):
that's not what that is like.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (11:41):
There are no perks for 1099s not and
that, and that sounds cold, butthat's the truth, though, and I
think I don't know who I wastalking to it may have been an
accountant or a lawyer orsomething and he was like the
best way to think about a 1099is you hire a plumber.
The plumber comes to the housewith all of their supplies, they
don't need any guidance, theycan do their job and they
(12:02):
fucking leave.
And that's I think too.
When I think about that, it'slike oh yeah, like a true 1099
is they have all of theirsupplies, meaning, too, they
don't need hours to beindependently licensed.
They have everything they need.
They leave and they come.
They leave and they come.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (12:16):
Yeah, and the idea of having like I've
seen a lot lately who are likewe're hiring employees, no,
you're not.
You literally just said you'rehiring a 1099 and 1099 is not an
employee, or like offeringfull-time positions.
Well, you can't dictate whatthat looks like.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (12:34):
Hold on.
I think we really need to saythis right, If you are a 1099,
they cannot dictate yourschedule.
They cannot say you need toattend a staff meeting.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (12:44):
Yeah, there are no.
They literally cannot doanything.
They can suggest things, solike if they prefer that you
document in a certain way, andthey're like, hey, this is
because of this insuranceregulation.
They can suggest that, but theycan't force you to do anything,
a note saying your notes haveto be done.
(13:04):
A real, a real sticky situation,isn't that Uh-huh?
Especially when we're talkingabout insurance that have the
requirements on how quicklythose notes need to be done.
It puts you in a really weirdposition when you're like, well,
like you're not going to beable to get paid for this
service that you're providingbecause you're not following the
insurance guidelines, which arealso my guidelines.
But I can't tell you what to do.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (13:27):
I just feel like to me it's so
messy Having a 1099,.
I had a group practice for asmall amount of time and I just
was like I'm putting everyone W2because that's just less
anxiety for me.
And I think too is like I wasjust like, oh, it's so nice Now
I don't have to worry about allthis extra bullshit.
And there's so many fuckingpractices.
And you and I too, and I wishwe had it recorded when we first
(13:47):
came on and we started talkingabout when people in Facebook
groups were like, oh, we'rehiring.
And you said to you're like 10and nine or W2.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, I dothat shit.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (13:56):
Yes, and I will.
Like I said I because I want tobe the one stirring the pot
always and don't want to be theone getting kicked out, you know
.
But I will.
Now that you can commentanonymously, the whole world can
know I comment anonymously onevery single one of those posts.
When they're doing or sayingsomething that does not meet
that criteria, I am alwayscommenting 1099 or W-2 and
(14:19):
sharing a cute little image ifthey say 1099, but they're
calling people employees, alwaysposting a cute little image of
the difference between 10s andw's twos well, I just comment
myself.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (14:30):
I should probably start being
anonymous more, but I feel likethey'd be like bitch.
This is kayla maybe.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (14:35):
Well, now they're all gonna know it's me.
But it's fine, it doesn'tmatter, they're not no, no, I
think I've created enough,enough other little like chaos
minions around here who are allgoing to do the same thing
Because they all know because Ihave no nothing to hide, and
what those look like.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (14:51):
So and I think that's the thing
too.
Is that nothing to hide?
Right?
Like talking with you?
Right, I'm friends with KatieMae?
Right, there's nothing to hide?
Right?
We're kind of like, hey, hereit is.
And I think those are thepractices too, that like, when
you start to ask questions andthey start to like get real
defensive and weird and just tointerview, like they're hiding
something, people they're hidingalways like and we, I mean we
(15:13):
have a pretty like.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (15:14):
So we are commission-based still, because
I want to give some autonomy tomy staff still.
That's one of my goals.
So if they want to work, ourminimum is 24.
If they want to work 24, theycan work 24.
If they want to, if they feelthe capacity like and can do
more, they can do more.
Whatever they need, but to beable to offer that ability for
also what their financialsituation is and I mean we are
(15:34):
we have standards of what thatlooks like.
I will talk to all of themabout all of it.
I can come up with what, like,the average is for any given
time, based on what ourdemographics are like.
There's there.
There is nothing.
There is nothing to hide behind, because I can give you all of
that information and we can havea real conversation about it.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (15:55):
Boom , I love it.
No, I'm here for it.
No, cause I want moretherapists.
Right, granted, if you're ingrad school, right, if you're a
pre-licensed therapist, ifyou're in community mental
health and coming into thisfield or in a toxic practice
like I, I want people to havetheir brains just start like
turning a little bit right orknowing like oh, sam's in ohio,
(16:15):
maybe if I like reach out to samon facebook people, she will
definitely respond to you.
I can just tell already likeshe will respond to you.
I think anyone who's been onthe podcast if reach out to them
, they will literally likerespond to you.
But like ask people like hey,do you know about this practice?
Like I need help with this andwe all have so much random
information in our brains.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (16:33):
And we're just like here you go.
Yeah Well, and one of the otherthings like, as I know, I
mentioned like we've had somepeople leave because they don't
want the W-2 structure and theywould rather be a contractor
somewhere.
Fine, that's fine, but like oneof my go-tos for them is always
like let me know if there areplaces like that you're looking
at, because I do know a lot ofpeople and if I think something
is shady, I'll tell yousomething shady and I'd rather
(16:54):
like, even if you're not here, Istill want what's best for you.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (16:57):
So yep, yeah, I feel like I'm that
person in in the area, I thinkjust last week, four people that
I never talked to reached outto me and they're like hey, you
know anything about thesepractices?
And I'm like I don't.
And I literally said I do not.
But give me a couple hours andI will reach out to some people
and let me find out.
I reached out to like four orfive people.
I got stuff.
I was like here you go.
And she was like, oh, myfucking God, thank you so much,
(17:26):
because we're just like we needto leave this place and this
like cycle just continues andcontinues.
A fucking chaos.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (17:30):
Yeah, no, and and I think we've had a
couple of us at the practice towho are like longer term
clinicians have like gone fromlike community agency to
community agency to see ifthings were better and like
that's still kind of shitty.
And going from like privatepractice private practice and
that's still kind of shitty.
(17:50):
And going from like privatepractice private practice and
that's still kind of shitty andlike what I mean, some of the
big ones in the area are notgreat places either.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (17:54):
Um , even if they're claiming to be
the same for our area folks Iknow there's a lot of you
listening.
Wait, I have a question, sam,because I just like wrote it
down and my brain went therewhat are your thoughts on
non-competes?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (18:04):
Uh, I think that it's really silly.
So even even before, like oursingular one that I had was like
just don't, don't, don't openup in the suite next to us, like
that's it.
Like you can stay in ourbuilding, just like, go to a
different floor, I don't care.
I feel like that just makesthings a little less confusing.
Outside of that, like I don'tgive a shit, like, do whatever
you want to do.
I also fully believe in clientautonomy.
(18:27):
They can follow you whereverthey want to go, anytime Makes
no difference.
I think the there's some someblack and white thinking on what
that looks like for people,sometimes business wise but I
(18:49):
mean I they can do whatever theywant to do.
If, if you build a relationshipwith someone, why would you
want to leave that person?
Exactly why, yeah, why wouldyou want to leave?
Yeah, and and if they're?
If I mean I picked where mypractice is based on the
location and like conveniencefor clients.
So I'm not.
I wouldn't be surprised if youdid the same again.
Just like, go down the hall, goupstairs.
I mean our entire, our entire.
(19:09):
Like there's four officebuildings that are right there
and they're all full of therapyoffices like therapists,
psychologists, like you name it,they're all in the building.
So, like I don't care, you canstill be here, please be here I.
We just did a.
I put together a therapistmeetup a couple weeks ago at our
office and we had people fromour building, from the building
next door, like all sorts oftherapists come together because
(19:30):
I think, again, we'redefinitely way more powerful as
a whole than individually andthere's more than enough clients
for everybody to be okay.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (19:39):
So and I think that's the that's
the weird part too is becausesince, since starting this
podcast, I've had so many peoplereach out to me, Not just
locally but like throughout thestates, and the amount of
lawsuits that people have beentelling me about blow my fucking
mind.
Like I talked to someonerecently where she had to pay
$1,500 for a lawsuit because ofa private practice owner, what
(20:04):
Like to leave a practice,practice.
There was someone else I talkedto.
They had, um, I'm pretty surethey were a w-2 employee and in
their contract the only time tobreak it was in a two-week
window to break your contract.
That's fucking nuts.
That's fucking nuts.
Sam just did the like you knowwhen dog do the huh, like to the
side, look like looking at me,like wait what the fuck did you
just say I can't even, I don'teven know what to say about that
(20:27):
.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (20:28):
Yeah, I well.
And here, like as a businessowner, why am I going to spend
money that I could be help likeputting towards my staff on
fighting something?
That's really fucking silly?
Like, if you're not happy here,please go.
Exactly Like I're not happyhere, please go, Exactly Right.
Like I don't need you.
I mean, no, that sounds realshitty, but like I don't need
(20:48):
you to be here.
Like you can go and do whateveryou want to do.
It's fine.
So I'm definitely not spendingany money to try and keep you
here so that way you can bemiserable here.
Like what?
The?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (20:58):
fuck , oh yeah, like this, like I I
said, the stories that peoplemessage me daily, it is like,
and I'm always like wait, what?
Like every time I'm like waitwhat, what?
And they like it's just neverfucking ending.
And I would really love, like Isaid, I need to find a lawyer
because there's like I wouldlove to expose these assholes.
I really fucking would see.
I see sam's like brain rightnow.
(21:19):
She's like huh like right, likehow the fuck do you expose this
?
Because that's the thing islike these things are going to
keep happening.
Why?
Because they prey on newtherapists, right.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (21:32):
They prey on people who's been in
community mental health andwanting to leave and they're
showing them this quote-unquotebetter life, right, and it's not
better and I think because Iknow one of the things I had was
like the bullshit that comesfrom like the programs and all
of these, like universities andstuff, but I think like this is
like this is an instilled beliefthat comes from that point like
of just like we're gonna dowhatever we want to do, because
(21:55):
like we are better, like we'reahead of wherever you are in
your career, and I feel likethat really is like that is just
continuously seen time aftertime I know my brain's like how
the fuck I know I was like Ireally need to get a lawyer so I
can figure out.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW (22:09):
Anyone knows a lawyer who could
potentially help me take downsome fucking assholes?
Please mess, because there's.
And, like I said, in this dustit's not, it's not just in where
I live, in the lehigh valleyright people think of kayla.
She's stirring the pot, she'sdoing this.
No, sam's in fucking ohio, it'sliterally everywhere, it's
everywhere like come on, peoplegrow the fuck up assholes.
(22:30):
I'm all fired up this morning.
I don't know why.
That's okay, yeah, happyfucking.
I don't know what date iswednesday.
When it's wednesday, I guess,yeah, what?
Let me ask you this is thereany other bullshit that you
think that needs to be likeburned to the ground in this
field?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (22:45):
So I, the other live and die hill, is
that programs are garbage, theidea that people students have
to try and find their owninternships or that they need to
work at community agencies fortheir internships.
I mean, I think there are a lotof professors that are bullshit
or professors who work atpractices that prey on students
to bring them to their practice.
Especially, there is a practiceowner in our area who does that
(23:10):
.
But yeah, I mean, I think thatthose are like the other things
that I just don't like.
One of one of my therapists wastold by their professor that
because they were working andgoing to school, that they
couldn't possibly provide anyvalue to their clients.
Also said that EMDR is like youknow, it's cool, but she did
(23:31):
the training and she justdoesn't think that it's like
beneficial to clients in any way.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (23:35):
Cool , you know bottom up approach.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (23:38):
Yeah, no, not beneficial.
Who was the head of thedepartment who we had our
meeting for the quarter or forthe semester?
Hung up on us during our calland then I scheduled a call to
chat about what the fuck wasgoing on.
And then hung up on me duringour call Because she didn't like
(23:58):
what I had to say about theprogram, which was that very
clearly like.
We have lots of clinicians whohave gone through this program
here and all of them havereported similar things about
like things being overlooked orcomments being made or you know,
just like not necessarilyfeeling safe within the program.
And when that comment came out,she was like, well, that's not
anything that I've heard of.
(24:18):
I was like, well, I'm tellingyou, based on the people that
I've worked with and like acouple of years of experience
through your program, like thisis what I'm hearing.
And she was like, well, that'snot anything that I've ever
heard about before.
Bye, and like hung up.
And I was like, oh well, okthen I guess.
So thanks for not giving a shitabout any of these people who
are paying you money to come toyour school Also sounds like she
(24:44):
needs some like slow BLS tohelp regulate her nervous system
as well.
You know good possibility, butyou know EMDR doesn't.
It's just, it just doesn't work.
It doesn't do anything ever.
But I was like, I don't know, Iwould have been as a professor,
wouldn't you be like, yeah,that's so cool that you, as an
intern, are going to go learnthis really cool modality that
is like evidence-based and doesreally good things.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LC (25:02):
no , we're just gonna shit on it
instead so many people do somany people do assholes.
I'm right, I know.
Is there any advice that youwould give your younger self?
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (25:15):
oh, probably so.
I've always been pretty feistyand it would probably be to like
, instead of trying to like, fitinto the mold, to just be the
feisty me and do whatever I wasgoing to do all along.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, LCS (25:29):
I feel that, and I feel like so
many people listening need tohear that, and I think that's
been the theme with everyfucking person who's been coming
on is just like you have to bea hellraiser yeah, and, like I
said, I've listened quite a fewof them now and like the like,
the tattoos and the hair color.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (25:47):
Like I worked for a hospital system so
that was like nope, you couldhave one pair of earrings and
you couldn't have any facialpiercings and your hair had to
be a natural color and you everytattoo had to be covered up.
So anytime people from from themain main campus would come to
us like I would need to knowahead of time.
So that way my hair was alwayslike on like the more um, red
(26:07):
version of you know redhead.
So I would have to like adjustmy hair and make sure that, like
I had socks and I had shoes andI had a sweater and like that,
everything, everything was to atee.
For when they showed up forthese meetings that way I like
checked the box of what, what Iwas supposed to be looking like
and in my head I'm like, but I'mliterally working with kids and
(26:29):
going to schools and likegetting on the ground and
playing, like doing all thesethings.
Who cares?
You love that shit.
Yeah, that's what I was like II don't know, but like I'm
pretty sure this child doesn'tcare whether or not my hair is
blonde or brown or purple or redor blue or green, they don't
care.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, (26:48):
They don't care.
And I hear, and I feel that somuch because I usually have fun
hair too.
I just don't have fun hair fora little bit now, since having a
baby.
It's going to change, though Ipromise it will be fun for the
teen conference.
I promise you that.
And I had purple hair when Iworked in a school, like bright,
fucking purple.
And the one teacher was like oh, do you want to go see the
therapist?
And he was like no, not seeingthat bitch.
(27:10):
And she was like do you want togo see the one with the purple
hair?
I was the same one.
She didn't realize he's likeyeah, I'll go see her.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (27:17):
Like how about that connection being real
, yeah, may actually get yousomewhere, and so, and that's
like, really, since that point,that's been since starting in
the practice, like I, we havevery few stipulations on what
we're going to do.
I got into a Facebook argumentwith Facebook argument and I
think maybe the the exchangeabout what people are wearing at
(27:37):
the office and like whether ornot sports attire is appropriate
, and I'm like, well, like I'min Cleveland, I'm a Cavs fan.
Like our office is allCleveland, all Cleveland sports.
Like that's just who we are.
So I'm like, yeah, you canguarantee all winter I am
showing up in some kind of Cavshoodie and some leggings, like
that's what it's going to be.
And they were like, oh, I can'tbelieve that.
(27:58):
Like, that's like, why?
Like what if someone isoffended by what you're wearing?
And I was like, well, likewe're literally CLE counseling.
Like if they don't likeCleveland and they're offended
by something Cleveland related,they're in the wrong fucking
office.
Like I shouldn't be here anyway.
Yeah, like then they're goingto walk into our waiting room
and they're also going to beoffended.
(28:18):
Like, again, not the place forthem, right?
So so, and that's been like ourpolicy since then.
Like I don't care what yourhair looks like I don't care.
I just don't.
I don't care.
I don't care about any of thethings.
I will almost always be in sometype of sweatshirt or like
T-shirt, leggings or capris, andprobably barefoot, walking
around the office, and that'sjust what it's going to be, so I
(28:40):
don't expect anything more ofanyone else.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (28:43):
And right, and I think too right,
that's just being, it's beingyourself, it's being comfortable
, and we know, right, like as atrauma therapist, right, that's
also showing safety, that peoplecan be themselves, and it's
amazing, when people feelcomfortable and safe in their
environments, the beauty ofhealing, that can fucking happen
for therapists too.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (29:01):
And absolutely and I think that
that's like as we're like one ofmy interns right now I love her
very much and she has been,she's been working at one of the
hospital systems as a nurse andlike feeling how she feels,
like she needs to show up thereand like in our supervision and
the things and she's like I knowthis isn't very professional I
was like, have you fucking metus?
Like we are, but also like thisis still a safe space for you
(29:24):
to show up and be you and like Idon't care, like if you need
something from me that's notrelated to clients, also let me
know, because this is this isyour space too.
Like this is a safe space forthem.
This is a safe space for youlike I.
Why can we not all, like youcan show up as a human?
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (29:43):
why can't we be friends right right
like?
That's what I feel like come onlike jesus.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (29:48):
We can.
We can all show upauthentically like.
That is one of our like maingoals is to show up
authentically in every capacity.
That's what like from the ripwhen we're interviewing people
for internships, like I'm goingto say fuck a lot.
So like if that's not you, thisis probably not our place.
If you're going to be offended,probably not the place for you.
That's just how pretty muchevery meeting, every supervision
(30:10):
, every interaction we have,that's probably how it's going
to go and too right.
Kayla Schubert Wirth MSW, L (30:12):
And I think when I say this too, I
feel like I probably got somepanties in a bunch by saying
this to people right, we're notcursing at you, we're not saying
fuck you, we're saying oh, oh,fuck shit, like we're talking
about something.
I think that's the difference,too, when people hear oh, we're
cursing, no, I'm not cursing atfucking clients, right, like
it's just in our language, andhow we're interacting with
people, like, oh, yeah, that wasreally fucked up.
Yeah, people.
Samantha Willi LPCC-S (30:33):
Mm-hmm, god damn it, but it hits all.
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