Guest: Cindi Miller MA, LMHC (she/her)
Host: Kayla Schubert-Wirth, MSW, LCSW (she/her)
Therapists are often punished for being good at their work through increased responsibilities with decreased support. When you're the "go-to" clinician, expect to handle everything solo while leadership tells you to just be grateful for the opportunity.
• Working in residential treatment facilities and group practices with unrealistic expectations
• Being thrown into high-acuity situations with zero training or preparation
• Having seven different supervisors in four months, each with conflicting expectations
• Complete lack of safety protocols, including being left alone with a client who pulled a knife
• The double standard of being told to have "intrinsic motivation" while receiving no feedback
• Experiencing burnout from constantly being left to "figure it out" without proper resources
• Showing up authentically with clients despite system pressures to conform
• Finding your path forward might mean leaving toxic workplaces, even without a perfect alternative
If you've ever felt like speaking up made you difficult, if being the go-to therapist has left you drowning in responsibilities and gaslighting, or if you're tired of being told to be grateful for unsafe, unsupported, unpaid work, you're not the problem, the system is.
Resources & Links:
🔹 Cindi's Instagram: @sportsfoodandmentalhealth
🔹 Work with Kayla:
Burned out by broken systems? Build a practice that honors you.
👉 gritandgracepsychotherapy.com
💼 Ready to leave burnout and bullshit behind for good?
If you're a therapist stuck in someone else's version of success and craving a business that actually feels like yours, Kayla offers bold, honest business coaching to help you unlearn the rules and build your private practice on your own terms.
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This podcast includes personal opinions and experiences shared by guests and anonymous contributors. All identifying details may be changed to protect confidentiality. These stories are intended for educational and storytelling purposes and are not meant to defame, accuse, or harm any person or organization. Any resemblance to real persons or entities is purely coincidental.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (00:00):
This episode is for every therapist
who's ever been told you're sogood, we don't need to support
you.
Also known as here's more work,no backup and a smile would be
great too.
Welcome to Burnout and Bullshit.
Real Stories from the MentalHealth Field.
I'm your host, kaylaSchubert-Worth, licensed
clinical social worker, andreaapproved consultant and trainer,
(00:20):
chaos maker and someone who'sofficially done playing nice
with toxic systems.
Today I'm talking with CindyMiller, licensed mental health
counselor, former D1 athlete andcoach, international speaker
and therapist, who's beenthrough some absolute bullshit
in this field.
We're talking seven supervisorsin four months, unpaid
opportunities and being throwninto high acuity roles with no
(00:44):
training, no support and nopanic button.
She was once left completelyalone during an intake while a
client pulled out a knife in theadmin's response.
He's probably just sad becauseapparently, safety is optional
when you're good at your job.
If you've ever been overworked,undervalued or expected to hold
an entire caseload togetherwith flipper hands and a fake
(01:06):
smile, this one's for you.
Cue the chaos You're going tofeel way too seen.
How did you get in this field?
Like what even kind of, madeyou be like?
I want to come into thiswonderful field of therapy and
mental health and psychology.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (01:19):
I had a much different perception of
what it was, that's for sure.
He took AP psychology in highschool and was like I'm going to
be a therapist, I'm going to bea counselor.
So from high school and I stillgo back and talk to my high
school class, the AP psych class, every year and tell them kind
of what I do, and, speaking tothis podcast, like I'm very
unfiltered, like I don't reallydo that because I don't want to,
(01:40):
or I tell them this because Idon't want to, or I tell them
this because I don't want to,and like the students are like
I've been voted two years in arow Favorite speaker, favorite
guest speaker there.
But love the class, lovepsychology, undergrad degree in
it.
Also loved coaching.
So I coached volleyball aftergraduating, all through college
too, I was like a club coach foryounger kids, and then I went
straight into college coachingand about five years into that
(02:01):
and that's not doing any kind ofcounseling with college
athletes, Nothing nothing,nothing, and really it is.
My life has kind of like I fallinto what I should do next, like
I feel very confident that likeuniverse has got me in, that,
like I was going to be agraduate assistant for a college
program and get my master's incounseling and the assistant
(02:24):
coach quit like two monthsbefore season and I had already
applied.
I had already applied for theyou know that position, and they
were like, do you want the job?
And I was like full-time job,school for two more years?
Sure, I'll take a full-time job, like great.
And so that's how I got into.
It was, my intention was not toforego, but it just kind of
fell into my lap.
Then I stayed in it because Iam a recovering people pleaser,
(02:46):
and I stayed in it because Ididn't want to ruffle feathers,
I didn't want to leave theathletes, I didn't want to.
You know all of the above.
And then, about five years in,I was coming back from a
recruiting trip where I was justexhausted from all things like
problems that were still goingon where I was, and I was 700
miles away on a recruiting tripand I was still getting texts
from players and all this stuffand I was like there is nowhere
(03:08):
for these athletes to go Becausethey have therapists that don't
get them, that don't have hoursthat can suit athletes, that
tell them just to quit and thatjust doesn't work for athletes
all the time.
Like you can hate it, yeah,like, yeah, like.
So there's this like piece oflike yeah, if you want these
pains, problems, issues to goaway, you could quit or you can
(03:30):
learn to deal with them becauseyou love the sport, right?
So anyway, they had therapiststhat were just not supportive of
the athletic realm.
They would come into my officeand just tell me about their
relationship problems, theirfriendship problems, their
academic problems, their familystuff at home, and I was like
I'm ill-equipped, I want to bethis for you and I feel like I
can't say the right thing.
(03:51):
So, fast forward, I went into myboss's office, said I'm
quitting, I'm going back toschool.
So, on the flip side, I becamea graduate assistant on the back
end of my coaching career andcontinued working with the team
while getting my master's.
And so that is the how I cameto be into the field and why I
said like it's not really what Ithought is because I thought it
was like sunshine and rainbows.
(04:11):
Nobody tells you about thepaperwork, the logistics, the
red tape, the inner fightingbetween therapists that, like
you know, I started myinternship and I'm like, does
everybody hate each other?
And they're like, no, it's likesuper passive, aggressive, and I
was like I kind of am pickingup on this, talking about human
design.
I'm projector, I feel all thethings I can, I can pick up on
some shit pretty quick, and sothat was the piece that I
(04:32):
thought I was just going to likego into private practice and
become this like eating disorderand athlete specific therapist
and there's just definitely beensome like hoops that I've
jumped through to get to thatpoint because they kind of force
that on you or tell you likethat you shouldn't or can't or
need to.
What's the phrase like makeyour dues or earn your key right
(04:57):
, all of those phrasing.
So yeah, so I definitely gotinto.
I have a specialty inaddictions, um, just based out
of I graduated at East Carolinaand that they offered that, and
so I worked with substance useand some of my practicums and um
and then I took a lot ofco-occurring in cause.
I really want to specialize ineating disorders because they're
(05:19):
higher likelihood in athletesand so I would do co-occurring.
I'd get the folks that came totreatment with both a substance
use and an eating disorder issue.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (05:29):
So it was a lot, and my EMDR brain
, too, is going guys, that'salso how I think about things.
So much is like these negativebeliefs and it's like I need to
be perfect as this.
And then working with theseathletes too, and then seeing it
for the eating disorder, right,and I need to be perfect.
And then also seeing it in thesport and then like where did
they learn this?
From family of origin, likethis is high acuity also for a
brand new therapist to come andbe like how do I navigate this?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (05:52):
Yes, yes , I.
Every so often I get like youknow, I'm all about like time
hop and social media memories,like I think, like I love seeing
what 12 years ago, cindy had tosay.
Other people are like shamedabout it.
I'm like I love it, when was myhead at?
And every so often I get like Ihave the screenshot of texting
my sister I'm getting in, I'mgetting my first client tomorrow
(06:14):
, like as a baby intern.
And then in that same day itwas like, oh, you're actually
getting three by the end ofFriday and I was like, ok, great
.
At that point I'm like, yes, myown clients, this is exciting.
And three clients as an internwho was also working part time
as like a tech at the place Iwas at with no real like hey,
this is how you work withclients one on one experience,
(06:37):
because I had just been doinggroup therapy prior to that was
I was just really like thrown tothe wolves.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (sh (06:44):
That's what happens to me.
My like first day of theinternship.
She literally goes here you go,and I said what's that?
She goes your clients and Isaid what am I supposed to do?
She goes in-home family therapyhere, call them by.
And I was like, okay, huh, like, cool, like, and this is why,
like, how do we expect peoplejust to like, expect us what to
(07:06):
do and like do it?
Well, you can't, and especiallybeing someone like you know
that like people, please, areperfectionist.
It's like there is no like whatdo you mean?
Just go, do it.
It's like when they say writethe paper, and you're like on
what?
And they're like your owninterpretation.
It's like you're grading thisbitch, what do you want?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (07:22):
tell me what.
I got into an argument with aformer boss over me asking I was
like I just want some feedbackfrom you.
I want you to tell me if I'mdoing a good job.
And she was like Cindy, I needyou to have intrinsic motivation
.
And I was like I'm likethinking, bitch, you pay my
salary.
Like I need to know if youthink I'm doing a good job, like
I think I'm doing a good job,but like I need you to also tell
(07:44):
me that so that I know I'm notgonna get fired.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (07:46):
Or you know that's kind of
important too, and I heard yousay to like coming, like jumping
through hoops.
What are some like fun, likehoop stories, that, like jumping
through these hoops of likedifferent experiences in the
field, one of the first ones wasI worked in residential.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (08:02):
My first job was in a residential
facility.
Was I worked in residential?
My first job was in aresidential facility?
Yeah, because they will hireany fresh out of grad school,
and it happened to be where Idid my internship, where that's
kind of the shit show alsotranspired as well.
But for that specific hoop, forthe first like two weeks I
started seeing this client andlike two weeks down the road,
someone one of the like highermanagement comes in there like
(08:22):
Cindy, how many days does thisclient have?
Two weeks down the road, someoneone of the like higher
management comes and they'relike Cindy, how many days does
this client have?
Like did you getpreauthorization?
And I was like what's that?
And they were like we're notgoing to get paid for this.
You didn't call their insurance.
And I was like who was supposedto tell me that?
And like people were genuinelyangry at me and I was like you
(08:43):
didn't tell me this is my firstjob, I didn't know that I had to
call insurance.
What is pre-authorization rightlike?
Because I I've never also evenfrom like an injury standpoint,
I've never been in a situationwhere I've had to wait on
medical pre-authorization I havethe appointment, I have the
medicine, whatever.
I have the medicine, whateverright.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (09:02):
You didn't ask me.
Your parents are taking care ofthat shit.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (09:06):
I never had to deal with any
pre-authorization.
It didn't exist for any of myissues, any of my things that I
experienced.
So I remember that being likeand I had to call and like, beg
this nurse on the phone, beg,beg, and kind of go back to
these two weeks.
Well, why didn't you callbefore my answer?
Because I was not about tothrow myself under the bus,
(09:27):
because no one told me I neededto and I'm new here.
I was just like this is why.
That's why and I wouldconstantly like why didn't you
have that information?
Because our intake persondidn't ask it.
I can't tell you what, like Istarted.
That was probably one of thebest pieces of advice I could
get from my supervisor at thattime was like reminding me that
I'm the expert of like what,once I did start to like know
(09:49):
what I was doing to talk toinsurance companies, like I am
sassy if I talk to insurancecompanies at this point because
their entire job is to say noand so I have to like really
assert some dominance if youwill, yes, to be like no, I know
more than you.
You are a nurse of kids and I'mworking with an adult's mental
(10:10):
health.
That doesn't even make sense.
So that was one of the hoopsthat I had to learn of having to
navigate, just being expectedto know what the hell you're
doing At all times.
At at all times, as though gradschool teaches you anything but
the like sitting and talking.
Like the skills, like there'snot any of the, it's not even
(10:30):
like business to start your ownbusiness.
It's like the insuranceauthorizations, the approvals,
the intake paperwork that, likethat's wasn't talked about in my
grad school program, wasn'tmine either.
Like what is that?
Yeah, right, it was all learnon the, but that would be fine
if the learn on the fly wasn'tlike condemned or told that you
were like being a failure.
(10:51):
I was like, if you're like well, yeah, that makes sense.
You didn't know that.
Here's what to do.
Moving forward, cool, great, Ican take feedback, but it's when
you have like the flair of youdidn't do this.
Why would you not do that?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (11:03):
I'm like because I didn't know the
flair of you didn't do this.
Why would you not do that?
I'm like, because I didn't knowI had to to me in my internship
internship, mind you, uh-huh,and internship, master's level
internship and we would have togive out it was in home.
Who lets interns do in-homefamily therapy alone?
Let's just also say that.
And we had like a massiveassessment packet.
Why?
Because you're gonna non-profitor residential.
It's a massive fucking packetwith all this fucking
(11:24):
information and and you havewhat?
45 minutes an hour sometimes todo this thing, maybe?
Yeah, and I'm like doing it.
I got all this stuff.
I get back to the office andthank God my supervisor wasn't
there.
She was awful and I realized onthe PHQ-9, one of the questions
it asked about suicide, and theclient checked like sometimes,
like sometimes, and I was like,oh my god, what the fuck do I do
?
Like I'm back at the office,like what do I do?
(11:45):
And I went to the supervisorwho was there and he was so, so
kind.
He's like Kayla, you know,let's just like sit down, we're
gonna, we're gonna help you callthe client and we're just gonna
.
You know like this happened.
Just don't do this again.
He's like, but I have to call,you know, your supervisor, just
to see also do what she wants.
And he called her and sheliterally was screaming over the
phone that I could hear herword for word screaming how dare
I not know what the fuck I'mdoing?
(12:06):
How dare I do this, how dare Ido that like?
And I was just like what thelike?
I am brand new like how, like,how are we supposed to know what
the fuck to do in thesesituations?
and you're fucking screaming atme like I now.
Until this day I will nevergive any phq-9s, anythings,
anything over anywhere, exceptin person.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (12:26):
because of that experience and that was
12 years ago- yeah, yeah, andthat's, I think, a lot of the
times.
Those are the situations whereyou're just again supposed to
know, and so one of the storiesthat I told you before we got on
is that I had literally sevensupervisors in less than four
months.
I think is what it was, andwhat, in regards to what we're
talking about, is that everysupervisor had a different
(12:48):
expectation and every supervisorhad different availability and
every supervisor had differentpaperwork and every supervisor
had different methods.
So I was going from one that waslike, wow, yeah, like that was
very person centered, cindy,great job.
To like the next supervisor aweek later, that was like
actually you need to, you knowyou need to cognitive and
behavioral that a little bitmore.
(13:09):
And then to the next one that'slike you know, dbt therapist,
and the next one like it was anadjustment that, like hindsight,
I can always look for silverlining, that it did give me a
hell of a lot of like experienceand different perspectives.
But it was the reason I had somany supervisors was because of
the exact reason everything'sgoing to shit in the mental
health world right now, anywayis because it got.
(13:31):
It was a personal, small ownedbusiness that was bought out and
the people that came in werelike you need to do it this way,
you need it this way.
Everybody's quitting.
So I had literally like I hadthe therapist clinical director
who interviewed me for myinternship was my first.
She literally just disappeared.
They fired her without tellingme like I like showing up for
(13:52):
supervision right, probably likeyes, yes.
And I'm like, oh, she's outtoday.
And then, like later that day,we got like a mass email that
was like she's no longer with us.
And I'm like, okay, what now?
What do I do?
Right, like she was mysupervisor, she, you know.
So then they put me withsomeone else for a temporary
time who, because I was still aschool intern at that time, I
(14:12):
didn't need a like fullsupervision contract, so I'm
pretty sure it was like a LMHCA,you know person that was just
has been working for a littlebit.
Put you with her.
They had a new clinicaldirector who I absolutely adored
.
I was like, yes, this is it.
This is why I like what I do.
(14:32):
This is great.
She blew some whistles and gotfired and I did not know because
she was not allowed to talk toany because there was like a
legal battle going on.
So I literally was like, um,but can I get my hours?
Please, can I get my liketimesheet?
And she was like um,unfortunately, I cannot like do
(14:53):
anything related to this job atthis time.
Like here's my personal email.
Um, you can no longer use thisemail.
Uh.
So I was like okay, but like,can you just sign this, like
cause you were my supervisor.
Like this is this, is like anold thing.
So that was my third and soafter she left, I was given.
This is when I finally the newclinical director above the
(15:18):
clinical director, kind of likemanager of sorts said I'm sorry
that the previous ownerspromised you a job, but we're
not going to give you a job.
You're going to have to apply.
So I'm applying to everywhereelse, other locations.
I'm like fine bitch, I won'twork here.
And I was like, because shedidn't promise me one, she said
if you do a good job, we will belooking for a therapist.
(15:39):
Well, a month goes by and saidadministrator is like wow, cindy
.
Like actually a lot of thetimes we only see like you're
either good in the chair oryou're good on paper and like
you have both.
And so we want to offer you ajob.
And I was like if everyonecould see cindy right now it's
(16:00):
just the like I was there.
So, yeah, like I was like shitCause I kind of told her that
like in the beginning I was likeno, I'm actually, I want to
work here.
I have like intention to youcan check all my stuff.
So then they tried to offer meas a master's level now
clinician with my license.
They tried to not hire me as atherapist and hire me as a
(16:24):
behavioral tech manager.
And they told me it lookedreally good on my resume to have
managerial experience.
I was like I've been in chargeof teams for the last 10 years.
I think I've got managerialexperience and I don't really
give a shit.
I plan to work for myself oneday.
I don't need managerialexperience.
And so I had another facilitiesperson reach out to me like I
(16:49):
know that sounds like adowngrade, but like it'd be good
for your managerial experience.
And I was like, can you affordto live off of $14 an hour with
your master's degree?
Like, even if you could afford,would you be okay with that?
She did not respond Because Iwas like you can't respond to
that, like you know, withoutsaying like you're right, that's
(17:11):
fucking crazy.
So I got another supervisor whowas, and that was the first one
.
I had to get through the NorthCarolina system, like have the
actual contract, because now I'mactually graduated from the
internship.
I ended up taking the job.
I did say you think I'm good,then you can pay me more money
then.
And they obliged, I wasprobably this was seven years
(17:32):
ago.
I was probably one of thehigher paid therapists because I
asked and said I mean I can gowork somewhere else and trying
to think so the other one.
And then she left.
She took another job.
So I got assigned another onewho again I liked, but she was
so overwhelmed that never hadtime for me.
And finally, I think that's six.
(17:54):
My seventh one was I went to theadministration and I said this
is absurd and the paperwork toget a supervisor in North
Carolina is extensive.
Like you have to have it signedbefore you can even work one
hour, like it has to be into thesystem, like they're very
thorough with their supervision.
And so I I then asked, I said Iwant an out of out of uh
(18:15):
practice supervisor and I wantyou all to pay for it.
And I think that that's morethan okay.
Because I've had seven.
I've now had six and like, likeif I can have one, I can get my
life, my full license, sooner.
Which is better for you, like.
I tried to like put it all onlike how it was better for them
and they were like, yeah, sure,okay, I'm like great, okay,
awesome.
So that's my seventh and mylast supervisor in North
(18:38):
Carolina which was in withinlike yeah, less than I think
four or five months of mefinishing my internship and
starting my career.
I just started to see the like,turnover and the chaos and how
everybody is like constantlyfighting and if they're not like
they're lying about it, likethey're just being
passive-aggressive.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (18:58):
So that was pretty, but I think
also, pretty insane too is likehearing how much you had to use
your voice and assert yourselfas being right.
A new in.
Was this your internship orfirst job?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (19:11):
oh, okay , so this was the, this was the
layover.
Yeah, right, and you know you'renot supposed to like make like
any noise as an intern and asyour first job, like I think
that's also really important forpeople listening to yours like
it's okay to fucking speak yes,it's actually required because
they kind of expect you to justtake what they give you and I
reckon, like every time I ask,they might like scoff, but they
(19:33):
came and I wasn't asking like Iwas still kind of timid on like
how much I could ask for likewith like salary or that sort of
thing.
But like and I also was 28years old when this was
happening, with life experienceand established of like checking
in on my people pleasing andyou know all of that Whereas
like a 22 year old, fresh out oflike I guess it's underground,
(19:56):
so 24 year old, fresh out oflike, you've been doing school
and you haven't kind of like hadthat life experience yet.
Like I would probably probablybe like burnout and doing
something different if I wasn'table to speak up for myself, and
I think that that's ultimatelysometimes gives me a bad rap.
Cindy's always complaining,cindy's always, you know,
speaking up, but luckily I do itfor other people too, um, which
(20:18):
feels really nice for, like,the people who can't speak up.
I definitely had that same job.
I worked at it for like a yearand a half and I feel like I
worked seven jobs Like I feellike I cause I was just moved
all around.
I worked at a partialhospitalization like location.
I worked at an adultresidential.
I worked at a teen residential,which I really loved because
I'm like still in my like, Iwant all the experience Like so
(20:38):
you want to switch me Cool,great.
But I helped start a PHP programwith this as like a year in
therapist like was creatingpolicies and procedures prior to
AI being a big deal, so veryextensive.
And I start very extensive andI start.
(21:04):
We started it.
We got people in and it wasquickly recognized that my from
eight to 430 because it waseating disorder still.
So I ate lunch.
So I did not have you, don'thave a break at all.
You know, on a lunch break youeat with them like there's
nothing.
So I was working a full 40hours a week and now people
hearing that like yeah,everybody does.
No, no, no, every hour wasspoken for of those 40 hours.
(21:24):
I was definitely working longerthan that with like notes and
paperwork and time to get fromlocation to location.
But what I noticed is thatbecause I was good at my job,
the less help I was receiving.
I think this is the thing too,yep.
So I was like, well, you don'tneed an extra tech, cindy, like
you've got it, or the techyou've got is so experienced
You're okay, or we need to pullthe dietician over, so it's just
(21:47):
going to be you today, butyou've got it, and at the
beginning I'm like that feelsnice, I'm good at my job, right?
Everybody likes that feedbackuntil you realize that it's a
manipulation technique toconvince you to do more with
less right.
This is why really, really goodclinicians burn out and speak
up, and this is why not greatclinicians who don't give a shit
(22:10):
can stay in a job for 30 yearsbecause they're doing the bare
minimum and getting away with it, because no one's going to call
them on it or they're going togive them help or they're going
to you know whatever they need,whereas the people who are like
left to their own devicesbecause they are independent and
can figure things out, are likefuck this, like this is, this
is not okay, which I did say toone of the directors in a
(22:32):
meeting.
I said it feels like you'repunishing me because I'm good at
my job and I can remember allof my supervisors have like I'm
not a quiet person and all mysupervisors have had like the
softest voices and I'm likemaybe it was a good balance.
I don't know, but I remember herbeing like are you hearing the
language that you're using,cindy?
Like punished, and I was likeyeah, yeah, yeah, I know exactly
(22:56):
.
I picked that word veryintentionally there's no other
word that fits here.
Like I am being punished withless staff, less time, less
everything because I'm good atmy job.
Like send me a tech so I can berelieved of my duties, so I can
take a pee break withoutworrying that one of my clients
is going to run away or throwtheir food on the ground or hurt
themselves.
Like I could never leave, ever.
(23:17):
I had no space to do anything,so that was also interesting.
This is when I started to thesupervisor that I had was
wonderful and started reallytalking about like Cindy, how
much longer are you gonna?
You know, keep up with?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (23:28):
like , keep dealing with this because
it will just keep on like yousaid, it will just.
And, depending on whatever jobyou go to, I had I would leave
job every year, year and a halfbecause of that same bullshit,
and you can only do it for solong.
And I would constantly say likeI'm drowning, like I would be
fine, I would get the new joband I'd be like I'm here, and
then they would realize I canfucking do it all, and then I
(23:48):
would just feel like I was justconstantly like in the middle of
the fucking ocean, like barelykeeping it up and all of a
sudden a wave coming andcrashing over me and just
constant.
And they would just laugh at mewhen I would say this and they'd
be like you're not fuckinghearing me, like no one can
sustain us.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (24:02):
This is, this is unrealistic yeah, no, I
had a our administration likeadministrative assistant, front
desk person who is a doll.
I adore her, like it's great,but we had many like battles.
She would come in and be likedo we have time for another
intake?
I'm like I don't know, do we?
I don't Do you, because shewould try to gent, because she
(24:25):
knew I was overwhelmed.
So she was trying to be like,do we have some time?
And I'm like no, we don't.
I said you can look at mycalendar.
I highlight it.
You can see every hour is taken.
I cannot, you know.
Okay, well, maybe so, and socan do it.
And then I would get a calllike an hour later.
That's like, hey, we're sendingsomeone over for two hours so
you can do the assessment.
(24:46):
Like, so you can just sendsomebody over whenever you need
something, but not when I asklike heard, got it?
Yeah, luckily I had an outbecause I was definitely still
in my place of like wanting tomake a name for myself, wanting
to, like, you know, stick it out.
I didn't have an idea of what Iwanted to do quite yet.
After that.
I was not feeling ready to gointo private practice.
(25:06):
And then I had a family healthissue.
My uncle got really, reallysick and I was really close with
him and he also looks exactlylike my dad.
They are like two years apartbut like very, they looked very
similar and and so when he diedI was like I'm moving back, like
it's happening, I'm going tomove back to Indiana.
(25:27):
So I was in North Carolina, Iwas like I'm moving back to
Indiana to be closer to family.
Well, that worked out likeperfect timing, because then I
could quit with like a reason, avalid reason, not just because
I hate it here, which isunfortunate, because I think I
(25:47):
was getting close to being ableto say that, like you know.
But I I put in a four monthnotice.
That was required Because assoon as, like, I went home to
visit, I came back and I waslike I'm going to quit and
giving you a heads up becauseI'm going to move.
So, like, please, don't fire me, because I'm going to move,
like I need the job, it's notbecause I'm like going to the
competitor or whatever.
On my last day of work theystill had not replaced my
position.
I have no idea who they hired.
Like there was zero overlap andI was the only primary
(26:10):
therapist at this location Foreating disorders, for eating
disorders, I for eating the highacuity yeah, high acuity and I
was the only therapist and theywere just like disjointed.
I was hearing horror storiesafter I left that I was like I
can't hear this because, likeI'm a mandated reporter, like it
was like the shit that fellthrough the cracks, the like all
the things I also had.
(26:31):
I was doing an intake at thislocation by myself.
No one else was there.
I think the dietician went tothe grocery store as she needed
to do, but then the front deskperson hopped out for a second.
I was the only one with twopeople in the kitchen and I was
doing an intake and intake'sprivate.
So my door is shut right, justpeople chilling.
I was doing the intake, askingall the questions that are on
(26:53):
there, and one of the questionsis, like you know, around
suicidality, homicidality, likeare you risk to yourself others?
Da, da, da, da, do you have anyweapons?
And to which he grabbed hisknife out of his pocket, opened
it, brandished it and said, yeah, this one.
And I was like, okay, can youput that down, please, can you
(27:15):
put that away now?
Like can we leave that in yourtruck from moving forward?
Like is that going to be okay?
And he was like I just wantedyou to know that it was there,
but yeah, sure I can leave it,like.
So he was kind of totally chill,um, but I was completely alone.
So I called said administrationwho told me that I was crazy
(27:35):
and being for being punished forsaying that.
And I said, yeah, so he justpulled his knife out.
He's hurting.
I bet he was just trying tolike assert some confidence and,
like you know, he's probablyreally insecure.
And I said I don't want to hearhis psychological background
right now when I'm telling you Iwas alone, like because all of
those things might be true and Iwas just completely alone If he
(27:57):
would have attacked me.
No one would have found me forhours.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (sh (28:00):
Should we also just talk about the fun
trainings we get in protectingourself in residential setting?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (28:06):
Which is really like not at all.
Like at this point it's likedon't touch them, but like try
your best.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (28:10):
They would call it so fun fact, I
did like karate as a young kidbut like our karate was like MMA
.
So like you know, arm bars,headlocks, like everything is
the shit I can still do and Istill go to karate.
And they would tell us to useour flipper hands and I would be
like what do you mean a flipperhand?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (28:30):
They're like you know if a client's
coming at you and attacking you.
You do use your flipper handsBecause if they're open, you're
going to touch theminappropriately, and that's what
you're worried about whenyou're being attacked.
Yeah yeah, flipper hands, no Ididn't?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/her (28:40):
I never got that training, yeah,
and I just remember being likeyeah.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (28:44):
But ours was my training at this place
was non-violence, so ours waslast resort touching.
Even if you're being attacked,I'm just supposed to be like,
attack me like it was, like, useyour words.
Basically is the witch.
So in this situation, and thisperson like was a kind human.
I worked with them for a couplemore months, like, but he also
(29:05):
was terminally ill, had nothingto lose, like that's the other
piece that I was like you'resaying, oh, he's just so sad and
hurting.
My other side is like I wasleft alone with someone who has
absolutely nothing to lose, likeyou know, um, and and so from
that point, they also told me,so at that point we had moved to
a shared wall, but like theother side was like a methadone
(29:28):
clinic, like a substance useclinic in, or like day treatment
, and the supervisor said nexttime, go grab Barry, I don't
remember his name.
Go grab Barry if you're feelingscared.
I'm like I was in a closedoffice.
How was I supposed to go grabBarry?
Like he's in a differentbuilding.
Yes, it's attached.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (29:52):
But like it's in a, I'd have to go
out three doors four doors,including my office.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (29:54):
Wait a minute, can you chase me outside
with the knife?
Yeah, so then people can see meand I can scream and like, yeah
, like her answer was to call,and it also pissed me off
because it was the man.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (30:03):
And I'm like.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (30:03):
I don't.
That's a whole other thing.
I'm like this man is like halfmy size, Like the man who I was
supposed to call for help, andI'm like I don't want to call
him for help, Like I want tocall like other people for help.
So I had asked for like anemergency button.
If you're going to leave mealone, I would at least like an
emergency button.
And that was around threemonths left of my job and it
never got there.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (30:24):
Well , they'd also going to replace
you.
I was going to be like how areyou going to get an emergency
button if they didn't replaceyou?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (30:28):
Yep, they never replaced me until I
was gone.
Gone, I also had.
You know, I always see peopleleaving jobs and having like
parties, like, oh, we're goingto miss you.
I've never had one and I'm like, am I that hated?
Or do I leave abruptly, or Ihave an idea.
Is it just not?
We're going to have a party oflike yay, we're going to miss
(30:51):
you so much.
A little like, you know,because I think I see that I'm
like, oh, my coworkers, and likeI literally left my job because
no one was working with.
Like bye to my patients, bye toeveryone that I don't know,
Because, yes, and I was like,wait, I've never had that and
(31:11):
I'm like, but I always have kindof tapered out I gave a four
month long, like it's so long.
I was like I'm leaving at thistime and it was, yeah, it was
insane because they didn't stopanything.
They didn't I even this isanother funny story so, because
it was a shit shit show show.
Um, I had stopped working atadolescent Adolescent was a shit
show.
I had stopped working atAdolescent Adolescent was a shit
(31:33):
show.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (31:34):
They were getting complaints all the
time.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (31:36):
Always a shit show.
You've got so many more.
You've got like the CPSinvolved and the state involved.
Like I get it, why it feelsmore stressful, like I get all
of the reasons why and whythey're there.
But I got a frantic call fromsaid supervisor who has like
treated me like shit and allthis stuff.
Can you please go to the teens?
We're being audited today andyou're the only person who has
(31:57):
access to like XYZ files andlike saw these patients and I
say, yeah, I'll go, sure, I'llsave the day.
That's my.
I like to do that.
I like I'll save your complex.
Sure, I'll save the day.
The woman is like this is herthird or fourth time.
She knows me.
Hey, cindy, like cause she'scome so many times and because I
was leaving, because I was nolonger working there and because
my give a damn had completelybusted every time, she had a
(32:19):
question that I would normallybe like oh, that's probably in
there.
I'm like I don't know.
They must've not done it.
I don't know.
I don't work here anymore.
Why didn't they sign thattreatment plan?
I don't know, because it wasn'tme I would have signed my
treatment plan.
You've seen mine.
You know they're signed because, again.
She's seen me, she knows me atthis point because there's so
(32:40):
many, so said supervisor sendsout a mass email because emails
are tangible.
Thank you so much to Cindy forher help.
Today Text me and says she'sgoing to give me a starbucks
gift card.
Ask me if I received it.
You never got a help button.
There was never, so I got anemail.
I got.
I got an email that went out toeveryone after I was already
(33:02):
leaving, like thanks, cool, likethanks for helping cindy,
you're welcome.
Also, like good luck, because Iwas.
I just didn't lie, I didn't goout of my way to protect anybody
because I was like, why would I?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (33:15):
you wouldn't do that.
I think that's the thing islike, that you like people are
supervisors in these agencies orprivate, toxic, private
practices.
They expect like because I'm incharge, you're going to no like
fuck around, find out uh-huh,yeah, like cause.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (33:30):
We're also like cause there's there's
a the power dynamic, but a lotof the times it's a who knows
who is to like who's in theupper management or you know,
like these sorts of things.
Not because you're better, notbecause you're older and wise,
like you're my peer, like I'veactually seen more clients
face-to-face than you have.
You got out of face-to to faceclient work.
Like as soon as someone offeredyou a manager job, right, like
(33:52):
yeah, and they expect, I think,just compliance.
And and then get reallyfrustrated with like questioning
.
I'm a questions person.
I used to get in trouble withit in sports.
Like I'd be like, well, why amI doing this?
Why, why are we doing thisdrill?
And once they realized that Iactually was genuinely curious
and not just trying to be asmart ass and get out of things
like postpone practice by askingquestions, it started to help.
(34:14):
Right, because I'm like, no, Igenuinely want to know why this
is helpful.
Oh, it's because of this, thisand this.
Cool, I'll do the hard drill,no problem, I just need to know
why.
Like I don't want to be doingsomething for no reason.
I think a lot of yeah, liketoxic group practice owners,
upper management, they justreally expect it.
Because I said so and like wealso know that that's not okay
(34:35):
to say to kids, because they'rehumans Like why do we think it's
okay to say to employees LikeI'm going to question and I'm
going to push back and there isa reason why I work for myself.
Now I do contract with a coupleof group practices, but I still
work for myself.
And one of the reasons yes, Iwill contract with you and I'm
making my own schedule and I'mmaking my own rules and and like
cool, great, the agreement isthere from the jump and it also
(34:55):
sounds like a true 1099 contract, or not?
some bullshit that a lot ofpeople do also like having the
expectations like and that'swhere, again, I was very clear,
which is good for them too,because they also don't want to
be crossing you know theboundaries.
If they're a good practiceowner, they don't want to be
crossing that boundary either,and so you know it works out for
both parties in that.
(35:16):
But also, like I know and thattook me a long time I'm like why
do I hate all of my bosses?
Why do I build resentmenttowards all of my like upper
management, anybody that I haveto, like you know, report to,
and at first I was like becausethey're all horrible people,
which may be true.
But also, like I know thatabout myself, like I could still
be working in like a groupdynamic, a residential, a
(35:38):
partial hospitalization, but Iwould constantly be resentful.
And some people like being toldwhat to do, and not a like
demeaning way, but like do this,this and this this week?
Cool, I love that.
The most direction I have isplease get your fucking notes
done, cindy.
Like that's about the most thatI have right.
Like that's you know before wecan do it please.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/her (35:55):
I know it's like do you want to
get paid?
Can we get?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (35:57):
paid.
I know that one is in because Ihave ADHD.
I need that motivation.
If you tell me it needs to bedone, cool got it Also like a
bitch to your notes.
I'm like I thought I did them.
Oh, that was last Friday.
I'm like, oh, I really thoughtI did them.
So it's one of those thingsthat I think like finding your
area and knowing like I think alot of people go into private
(36:19):
practice who are extroverts andhate it, and I think there's
like I'm an introvert, I workfrom home.
I love every second of it, Likedon't you get lonely?
Nope, because I have the energythen to go see friends after
hours or I set my own hours or Ican go on a walk in the middle
(36:39):
of the day, or that works for me.
But I'm an introvert and I likemy alone time where you know I
think finding your the best fitfor you might be jumping into a
group practice right away, likethat.
Coming back to the beginning,where we talked about like how
there's these rules of like earnyour, keep you know, like get
your, get your feet wet.
There's a comparison to sportsthat I see a lot like when I
work in the club circuit.
So younger kids, they alwaysthrow like the least experienced
(37:02):
coach.
So like the young college kidwith the itty bitties, like the
10, 11 year olds, and thatannoys me because that's where
they learn their bad habits ortheir good habits.
Like that needs to be the topcoaches in the league in the
area coaching the youngins rightwhen they're seniors.
Like give that to anybody theyneed to.
They either work hard or theydon't.
They either want to go furtheror they don't.
(37:22):
Right, like.
I see that same thing in thetherapy realm too, of like the
expectation of throwing theinterns and the fresh out of
grad school counselors to thehighest acuity, the in-home, the
you know highest amounts oftrauma, the like that's the
expectation.
And a lot of therapists I seein these Facebook groups that
are like well, I had to do it.
(37:42):
And I'm like are we still there?
Like are we still at the?
Like I went through it, so youshould have to too.
Like I suffered, so you shouldhave to too.
And like the answer yes, we arestill there.
And that really sucks because Iit's not even like don't be mean
to the new therapist, it's alsolike it's really not fair to
the patients to the clients likeand and I hear that a lot of
(38:03):
like when clients come to me andthey're like well, I had a
therapist that was like at auniversity, but they were only
there for a semester, so I get anew one and then the one had to
have the instructor in becauseshe was so nervous to have
therapy.
Like you know, like I'm like,this is what people's first
experiences of therapy is.
It's no wonder there's such abad like.
It's no wonder that people arelike therapy fucking sucks.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (38:25):
Like there are people out there a
new client and I had.
They asked me, they cursed andthey go oh my god, I'm so sorry,
I'm out of curse.
And I'm like, yeah, you canfucking curse.
They're like oh, my pasttherapist scolded me for cursing
.
I said no, I don't care whatthe fuck we say in here let's go
.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (38:42):
I know I'm like I'm actually if you
want to scold me for not like wearen't a good fit but you can
tell me and I'll like tone itdown a little bit, like or if
that's all you can hear, likeI'll tone it down but like I'm
not gonna tell you how you showup, like that's insane.
I think that that is is one ofmy things, my favorite things
too, I think.
Uh, your last one that youposted about like you need to
cover up your tattoos or yourhey.
(39:04):
So I started my tattoo like Istarted my tattoos as like
hidden places, like where youknow I can always cover them if
I need, because at the time,jobs care about that.
And I started my sleeve and Iwas like if anyone cares about
my tattoos, I don't want to workfor them.
Like I just made that.
Like I was like that's not agood place for me.
Or if people come to me and myhair's pink or purple this time,
(39:24):
or a different color, andthey're like whoa, then you're
not the client for me and that'sokay.
Like I don't, you know, butpeople do like see my tattoos or
see my purple hair and they'relike hell, yeah, that's the
therapist for me.
Cool, great, awesome.
I talk all the time about likeyour presentation, is your
business card right, how youshow up as your business card of
(39:45):
, like who you see, really likea lot of the times.
But yeah, there's a lot ofcrazy stories of so many of and
I feel like my therapyexperience in the beginning,
like I, sometimes I'm like howare those people that like I was
thrilled, like they were thrownto the intern, like I'm like
how are they doing?
Did they go back to right?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (40:04):
like showing up authentically with
clients.
Sometimes that's, that's thefirst fucking step and granted,
you didn't know like how to Now,probably going in, you'd be
like, okay, I would do this,this, this, this, we could do
this right.
But I think, showing up trulyas yourself, being like, hey,
what the fuck's going on?
How are you today, like thatbreakfast, fucking sucked right.
There's that connection.
There we're clients, we thriveconnection.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (40:35):
And if you can't do that, like yeah, I
will tell you, but like, that'sjust like, I think, a huge piece
of this that we forget aboutfor sure.
And that's where you know allthe people who have become
therapists because they weretold they were good at it, like
yes, that's true sometimes, andsometimes it's because you were
a mediator in a toxic familysystem and you became good at it
.
Not that it was like a naturalthing for you, but a I
definitely like, feel that thatlike being human, showing up as
as yourself, is most of theconnection.
(40:56):
That's how I start.
Any new clients now is likethis is me, this is you,
anything goes.
If I don't have thick enoughskin for what you have to bring
to me, that I will tell you.
You know, because I just I justtook someone on who said their
last therapist was an intern andno, showed them.
They client emailed and said hey, I thought we were supposed to
(41:17):
meet, and the intern respondedwith your stuff is just too much
for me.
It was triggering and and I waslike so then the client has not
seen somebody in like fiveyears, 10 years, because like,
oh, my, too much for even atherapist.
Yes, like and I'm like I am sosorry you had that experience.
It's not a bad thing for thatintern to say that, but like to
(41:39):
no show and then email and tolike it then be read in the tone
that the client wanted to readthat like you're so fucked up.
I can't work with you.
Where the intern might havebeen like this is a lot.
I'm new.
I'm so sorry.
I can't serve you in the bestway.
That may be the intention, butif you can't express that, then
they're going to create thestory that they were and then it
stopped this person from havingtherapy for years and some of
(42:01):
the stories of that I've hadstories like that too, and I'm
just like wait a minute.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (42:05):
The therapist said what I'm like no
, we don't say that.
And they're like, oh really.
And I was like, no, they'relike, well, I wasn't the only
one who said that.
And I was like, oh God, and Ifeel like I'm almost like having
to like rehash therapist stuff.
I'd be like, no, that's notappropriate.
Let me tell you why this isn'tappropriate and it's just wild.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (42:30):
What toxic system right now stay out
of the therapist facebook groups.
They say to go in fornetworking, but all it is is
drama, bullshit and will makeyou hate your job like, make you
think that you should be hatingyour job like, and in them.
I do not see them anymore.
I think I've hit them all, orremoved the notifications or
whatever.
Yeah, I was for a while andrealized that I am done arguing
(42:52):
with strangers.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (42:53):
This is my local area, so I know who
I'm playing.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (42:55):
You know they are.
Yeah, you know who they are.
We actually had a big fallingout separation during COVID
because there was a Christiantherapist here locally who was
threatening to turn our licensein because we were supporting
the protest no hate in our stateabout support of the
marginalized and she was likeyou're pushing your agenda on on
(43:16):
on your patients and she likewrote an article for some like
right wing that got posted andlike it was so anyway, we
separated.
So now I'm in a very healthylocal facebook group because
before I got threatened to shewas going to report me to the
board.
For I was like because I wastelling her how awful she was,
basically, and for likedefamation.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (43:36):
If I hear the fucking term
defamation one more time, I'myou see how fast I'm gonna like
yeah yeah, yes.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (43:44):
So be very wary if not get out of
Facebook groups, becausetherapists I think are are in
two categories they're eitherworking on themselves or they
aren't, and they are expressingtheir wounds to other therapists
because you can't do it to yourclients.
Some people do, but like yougot to take it out somewhere and
they do it to other therapists.
And not everything's unethical.
(44:04):
And you know, I see all thetime like I did every single one
of my like presentations forone of my grad school classes on
how to, how to toe the lineethically.
So I did one on like shockingIf you've picked anything up
about me I like ride the line, Ifollow rules that make sense
and I hate rules that don't.
So I did an entire paper onbartering and you put can I
(44:26):
barter with a patient?
No, dual, dual relationshipCannot do it.
I'm like, actually the code ofethics says depending on what it
is, where it is, how it goes,all the things I'm like it's not
a cut and dry, it's not blackand white.
That to you.
What else would I say to a newtherapist or someone that needs
to get out is even if the nextplace isn't the best, at least
(44:46):
get to a new place to breathe.
If you're in a really shittytoxic, like you might hear, oh,
this place is just as bad.
You're at least going to getthe honeymoon period, so get out
and change.
I think you said like every yearand a half, like you were kind
of getting to that point and Itell this to clients.
I tell this people in my lifeif it is not good for your
mental health, change it.
Like don't wait until it's sobad that you're miserable or
(45:08):
hurting or have a autoimmunediagnosis to then leave your job
.
Like if it doesn't feel good,start looking right away.
And then also like your timewith your client is the real
thing about therapy.
And if that feels really good,like ignore all the other shit
on the outside.
Yeah, I'm like a big of likeyou're in your own lane.
There's a lot of people in thetherapy world who will tell you
(45:28):
exactly how you're supposed todo it, and there's no right way.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (45:34):
If you ever felt like speaking up
made you difficult, if being thego-to therapist has left you
drowning in responsibilities andgaslighting, or if you're tired
of being told to be gratefulfor unsafe, unsupported, unpaid
work, you're not the problem,the system is.
Big thanks to Cindy for keepingit real and naming the shit so
many of us have lived through.
(45:54):
If this episode hit you in thegut, tag a friend, share it to
your stories or leave a review.
It helps more burned out, bighearted therapists find their
way back to themselves.
You can learn more about Cindyin the show notes.
Work with me or apply to be aguest on the show.
As always, take no shit andtake care of your nervous system
.
See you next week.
This episode is for every therapist
who's ever been told you're sogood, we don't need to support
you.
Also known as here's more work,no backup and a smile would be
great too.
Welcome to Burnout and Bullshit.
Real Stories from the MentalHealth Field.
I'm your host, kaylaSchubert-Worth, licensed
clinical social worker, andreaapproved consultant and trainer,
(00:20):
chaos maker and someone who'sofficially done playing nice
with toxic systems.
Today I'm talking with CindyMiller, licensed mental health
counselor, former D1 athlete andcoach, international speaker
and therapist, who's beenthrough some absolute bullshit
in this field.
We're talking seven supervisorsin four months, unpaid
opportunities and being throwninto high acuity roles with no
(00:44):
training, no support and nopanic button.
She was once left completelyalone during an intake while a
client pulled out a knife in theadmin's response.
He's probably just sad becauseapparently, safety is optional
when you're good at your job.
If you've ever been overworked,undervalued or expected to hold
an entire caseload togetherwith flipper hands and a fake
(01:06):
smile, this one's for you.
Cue the chaos You're going tofeel way too seen.
How did you get in this field?
Like what even kind of, madeyou be like?
I want to come into thiswonderful field of therapy and
mental health and psychology.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (01:19):
I had a much different perception of
what it was, that's for sure.
He took AP psychology in highschool and was like I'm going to
be a therapist, I'm going to bea counselor.
So from high school and I stillgo back and talk to my high
school class, the AP psych class, every year and tell them kind
of what I do, and, speaking tothis podcast, like I'm very
unfiltered, like I don't reallydo that because I don't want to,
(01:40):
or I tell them this because Idon't want to, or I tell them
this because I don't want to,and like the students are like
I've been voted two years in arow Favorite speaker, favorite
guest speaker there.
But love the class, lovepsychology, undergrad degree in
it.
Also loved coaching.
So I coached volleyball aftergraduating, all through college
too, I was like a club coach foryounger kids, and then I went
straight into college coachingand about five years into that
(02:01):
and that's not doing any kind ofcounseling with college
athletes, Nothing nothing,nothing, and really it is.
My life has kind of like I fallinto what I should do next, like
I feel very confident that likeuniverse has got me in, that,
like I was going to be agraduate assistant for a college
program and get my master's incounseling and the assistant
(02:24):
coach quit like two monthsbefore season and I had already
applied.
I had already applied for theyou know that position, and they
were like, do you want the job?
And I was like full-time job,school for two more years?
Sure, I'll take a full-time job, like great.
And so that's how I got into.
It was, my intention was not toforego, but it just kind of
fell into my lap.
Then I stayed in it because Iam a recovering people pleaser,
(02:46):
and I stayed in it because Ididn't want to ruffle feathers,
I didn't want to leave theathletes, I didn't want to.
You know all of the above.
And then, about five years in,I was coming back from a
recruiting trip where I was justexhausted from all things like
problems that were still goingon where I was, and I was 700
miles away on a recruiting tripand I was still getting texts
from players and all this stuffand I was like there is nowhere
(03:08):
for these athletes to go Becausethey have therapists that don't
get them, that don't have hoursthat can suit athletes, that
tell them just to quit and thatjust doesn't work for athletes
all the time.
Like you can hate it, yeah,like, yeah, like.
So there's this like piece oflike yeah, if you want these
pains, problems, issues to goaway, you could quit or you can
(03:30):
learn to deal with them becauseyou love the sport, right?
So anyway, they had therapiststhat were just not supportive of
the athletic realm.
They would come into my officeand just tell me about their
relationship problems, theirfriendship problems, their
academic problems, their familystuff at home, and I was like
I'm ill-equipped, I want to bethis for you and I feel like I
can't say the right thing.
(03:51):
So, fast forward, I went into myboss's office, said I'm
quitting, I'm going back toschool.
So, on the flip side, I becamea graduate assistant on the back
end of my coaching career andcontinued working with the team
while getting my master's.
And so that is the how I cameto be into the field and why I
said like it's not really what Ithought is because I thought it
was like sunshine and rainbows.
(04:11):
Nobody tells you about thepaperwork, the logistics, the
red tape, the inner fightingbetween therapists that, like
you know, I started myinternship and I'm like, does
everybody hate each other?
And they're like, no, it's likesuper passive, aggressive, and I
was like I kind of am pickingup on this, talking about human
design.
I'm projector, I feel all thethings I can, I can pick up on
some shit pretty quick, and sothat was the piece that I
(04:32):
thought I was just going to likego into private practice and
become this like eating disorderand athlete specific therapist
and there's just definitely beensome like hoops that I've
jumped through to get to thatpoint because they kind of force
that on you or tell you likethat you shouldn't or can't or
need to.
What's the phrase like makeyour dues or earn your key right
(04:57):
, all of those phrasing.
So yeah, so I definitely gotinto.
I have a specialty inaddictions, um, just based out
of I graduated at East Carolinaand that they offered that, and
so I worked with substance useand some of my practicums and um
and then I took a lot ofco-occurring in cause.
I really want to specialize ineating disorders because they're
(05:19):
higher likelihood in athletesand so I would do co-occurring.
I'd get the folks that came totreatment with both a substance
use and an eating disorder issue.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (05:29):
So it was a lot, and my EMDR brain
, too, is going guys, that'salso how I think about things.
So much is like these negativebeliefs and it's like I need to
be perfect as this.
And then working with theseathletes too, and then seeing it
for the eating disorder, right,and I need to be perfect.
And then also seeing it in thesport and then like where did
they learn this?
From family of origin, likethis is high acuity also for a
brand new therapist to come andbe like how do I navigate this?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (05:52):
Yes, yes , I.
Every so often I get like youknow, I'm all about like time
hop and social media memories,like I think, like I love seeing
what 12 years ago, cindy had tosay.
Other people are like shamedabout it.
I'm like I love it, when was myhead at?
And every so often I get like Ihave the screenshot of texting
my sister I'm getting in, I'mgetting my first client tomorrow
(06:14):
, like as a baby intern.
And then in that same day itwas like, oh, you're actually
getting three by the end ofFriday and I was like, ok, great
.
At that point I'm like, yes, myown clients, this is exciting.
And three clients as an internwho was also working part time
as like a tech at the place Iwas at with no real like hey,
this is how you work withclients one on one experience,
(06:37):
because I had just been doinggroup therapy prior to that was
I was just really like thrown tothe wolves.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (sh (06:44):
That's what happens to me.
My like first day of theinternship.
She literally goes here you go,and I said what's that?
She goes your clients and Isaid what am I supposed to do?
She goes in-home family therapyhere, call them by.
And I was like, okay, huh, like, cool, like, and this is why,
like, how do we expect peoplejust to like, expect us what to
(07:06):
do and like do it?
Well, you can't, and especiallybeing someone like you know
that like people, please, areperfectionist.
It's like there is no like whatdo you mean?
Just go, do it.
It's like when they say writethe paper, and you're like on
what?
And they're like your owninterpretation.
It's like you're grading thisbitch, what do you want?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (07:22):
tell me what.
I got into an argument with aformer boss over me asking I was
like I just want some feedbackfrom you.
I want you to tell me if I'mdoing a good job.
And she was like Cindy, I needyou to have intrinsic motivation
.
And I was like I'm likethinking, bitch, you pay my
salary.
Like I need to know if youthink I'm doing a good job, like
I think I'm doing a good job,but like I need you to also tell
(07:44):
me that so that I know I'm notgonna get fired.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (07:46):
Or you know that's kind of
important too, and I heard yousay to like coming, like jumping
through hoops.
What are some like fun, likehoop stories, that, like jumping
through these hoops of likedifferent experiences in the
field, one of the first ones wasI worked in residential.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (08:02):
My first job was in a residential
facility.
Was I worked in residential?
My first job was in aresidential facility?
Yeah, because they will hireany fresh out of grad school,
and it happened to be where Idid my internship, where that's
kind of the shit show alsotranspired as well.
But for that specific hoop, forthe first like two weeks I
started seeing this client andlike two weeks down the road,
someone one of the like highermanagement comes in there like
(08:22):
Cindy, how many days does thisclient have?
Two weeks down the road, someoneone of the like higher
management comes and they'relike Cindy, how many days does
this client have?
Like did you getpreauthorization?
And I was like what's that?
And they were like we're notgoing to get paid for this.
You didn't call their insurance.
And I was like who was supposedto tell me that?
And like people were genuinelyangry at me and I was like you
(08:43):
didn't tell me this is my firstjob, I didn't know that I had to
call insurance.
What is pre-authorization rightlike?
Because I I've never also evenfrom like an injury standpoint,
I've never been in a situationwhere I've had to wait on
medical pre-authorization I havethe appointment, I have the
medicine, whatever.
I have the medicine, whateverright.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (09:02):
You didn't ask me.
Your parents are taking care ofthat shit.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (09:06):
I never had to deal with any
pre-authorization.
It didn't exist for any of myissues, any of my things that I
experienced.
So I remember that being likeand I had to call and like, beg
this nurse on the phone, beg,beg, and kind of go back to
these two weeks.
Well, why didn't you callbefore my answer?
Because I was not about tothrow myself under the bus,
(09:27):
because no one told me I neededto and I'm new here.
I was just like this is why.
That's why and I wouldconstantly like why didn't you
have that information?
Because our intake persondidn't ask it.
I can't tell you what, like Istarted.
That was probably one of thebest pieces of advice I could
get from my supervisor at thattime was like reminding me that
I'm the expert of like what,once I did start to like know
(09:49):
what I was doing to talk toinsurance companies, like I am
sassy if I talk to insurancecompanies at this point because
their entire job is to say noand so I have to like really
assert some dominance if youwill, yes, to be like no, I know
more than you.
You are a nurse of kids and I'mworking with an adult's mental
(10:10):
health.
That doesn't even make sense.
So that was one of the hoopsthat I had to learn of having to
navigate, just being expectedto know what the hell you're
doing At all times.
At at all times, as though gradschool teaches you anything but
the like sitting and talking.
Like the skills, like there'snot any of the, it's not even
(10:30):
like business to start your ownbusiness.
It's like the insuranceauthorizations, the approvals,
the intake paperwork that, likethat's wasn't talked about in my
grad school program, wasn'tmine either.
Like what is that?
Yeah, right, it was all learnon the, but that would be fine
if the learn on the fly wasn'tlike condemned or told that you
were like being a failure.
(10:51):
I was like, if you're like well, yeah, that makes sense.
You didn't know that.
Here's what to do.
Moving forward, cool, great, Ican take feedback, but it's when
you have like the flair of youdidn't do this.
Why would you not do that?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (11:03):
I'm like because I didn't know the
flair of you didn't do this.
Why would you not do that?
I'm like, because I didn't knowI had to to me in my internship
internship, mind you, uh-huh,and internship, master's level
internship and we would have togive out it was in home.
Who lets interns do in-homefamily therapy alone?
Let's just also say that.
And we had like a massiveassessment packet.
Why?
Because you're gonna non-profitor residential.
It's a massive fucking packetwith all this fucking
(11:24):
information and and you havewhat?
45 minutes an hour sometimes todo this thing, maybe?
Yeah, and I'm like doing it.
I got all this stuff.
I get back to the office andthank God my supervisor wasn't
there.
She was awful and I realized onthe PHQ-9, one of the questions
it asked about suicide, and theclient checked like sometimes,
like sometimes, and I was like,oh my god, what the fuck do I do
?
Like I'm back at the office,like what do I do?
(11:45):
And I went to the supervisorwho was there and he was so, so
kind.
He's like Kayla, you know,let's just like sit down, we're
gonna, we're gonna help you callthe client and we're just gonna
.
You know like this happened.
Just don't do this again.
He's like, but I have to call,you know, your supervisor, just
to see also do what she wants.
And he called her and sheliterally was screaming over the
phone that I could hear herword for word screaming how dare
I not know what the fuck I'mdoing?
(12:06):
How dare I do this, how dare Ido that like?
And I was just like what thelike?
I am brand new like how, like,how are we supposed to know what
the fuck to do in thesesituations?
and you're fucking screaming atme like I now.
Until this day I will nevergive any phq-9s, anythings,
anything over anywhere, exceptin person.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (12:26):
because of that experience and that was
12 years ago- yeah, yeah, andthat's, I think, a lot of the
times.
Those are the situations whereyou're just again supposed to
know, and so one of the storiesthat I told you before we got on
is that I had literally sevensupervisors in less than four
months.
I think is what it was, andwhat, in regards to what we're
talking about, is that everysupervisor had a different
(12:48):
expectation and every supervisorhad different availability and
every supervisor had differentpaperwork and every supervisor
had different methods.
So I was going from one that waslike, wow, yeah, like that was
very person centered, cindy,great job.
To like the next supervisor aweek later, that was like
actually you need to, you knowyou need to cognitive and
behavioral that a little bitmore.
(13:09):
And then to the next one that'slike you know, dbt therapist,
and the next one like it was anadjustment that, like hindsight,
I can always look for silverlining, that it did give me a
hell of a lot of like experienceand different perspectives.
But it was the reason I had somany supervisors was because of
the exact reason everything'sgoing to shit in the mental
health world right now, anywayis because it got.
(13:31):
It was a personal, small ownedbusiness that was bought out and
the people that came in werelike you need to do it this way,
you need it this way.
Everybody's quitting.
So I had literally like I hadthe therapist clinical director
who interviewed me for myinternship was my first.
She literally just disappeared.
They fired her without tellingme like I like showing up for
(13:52):
supervision right, probably likeyes, yes.
And I'm like, oh, she's outtoday.
And then, like later that day,we got like a mass email that
was like she's no longer with us.
And I'm like, okay, what now?
What do I do?
Right, like she was mysupervisor, she, you know.
So then they put me withsomeone else for a temporary
time who, because I was still aschool intern at that time, I
(14:12):
didn't need a like fullsupervision contract, so I'm
pretty sure it was like a LMHCA,you know person that was just
has been working for a littlebit.
Put you with her.
They had a new clinicaldirector who I absolutely adored
.
I was like, yes, this is it.
This is why I like what I do.
(14:32):
This is great.
She blew some whistles and gotfired and I did not know because
she was not allowed to talk toany because there was like a
legal battle going on.
So I literally was like, um,but can I get my hours?
Please, can I get my liketimesheet?
And she was like um,unfortunately, I cannot like do
(14:53):
anything related to this job atthis time.
Like here's my personal email.
Um, you can no longer use thisemail.
Uh.
So I was like okay, but like,can you just sign this, like
cause you were my supervisor.
Like this is this, is like anold thing.
So that was my third and soafter she left, I was given.
This is when I finally the newclinical director above the
(15:18):
clinical director, kind of likemanager of sorts said I'm sorry
that the previous ownerspromised you a job, but we're
not going to give you a job.
You're going to have to apply.
So I'm applying to everywhereelse, other locations.
I'm like fine bitch, I won'twork here.
And I was like, because shedidn't promise me one, she said
if you do a good job, we will belooking for a therapist.
(15:39):
Well, a month goes by and saidadministrator is like wow, cindy
.
Like actually a lot of thetimes we only see like you're
either good in the chair oryou're good on paper and like
you have both.
And so we want to offer you ajob.
And I was like if everyonecould see cindy right now it's
(16:00):
just the like I was there.
So, yeah, like I was like shitCause I kind of told her that
like in the beginning I was likeno, I'm actually, I want to
work here.
I have like intention to youcan check all my stuff.
So then they tried to offer meas a master's level now
clinician with my license.
They tried to not hire me as atherapist and hire me as a
(16:24):
behavioral tech manager.
And they told me it lookedreally good on my resume to have
managerial experience.
I was like I've been in chargeof teams for the last 10 years.
I think I've got managerialexperience and I don't really
give a shit.
I plan to work for myself oneday.
I don't need managerialexperience.
And so I had another facilitiesperson reach out to me like I
(16:49):
know that sounds like adowngrade, but like it'd be good
for your managerial experience.
And I was like, can you affordto live off of $14 an hour with
your master's degree?
Like, even if you could afford,would you be okay with that?
She did not respond Because Iwas like you can't respond to
that, like you know, withoutsaying like you're right, that's
(17:11):
fucking crazy.
So I got another supervisor whowas, and that was the first one
.
I had to get through the NorthCarolina system, like have the
actual contract, because now I'mactually graduated from the
internship.
I ended up taking the job.
I did say you think I'm good,then you can pay me more money
then.
And they obliged, I wasprobably this was seven years
(17:32):
ago.
I was probably one of thehigher paid therapists because I
asked and said I mean I can gowork somewhere else and trying
to think so the other one.
And then she left.
She took another job.
So I got assigned another onewho again I liked, but she was
so overwhelmed that never hadtime for me.
And finally, I think that's six.
(17:54):
My seventh one was I went to theadministration and I said this
is absurd and the paperwork toget a supervisor in North
Carolina is extensive.
Like you have to have it signedbefore you can even work one
hour, like it has to be into thesystem, like they're very
thorough with their supervision.
And so I I then asked, I said Iwant an out of out of uh
(18:15):
practice supervisor and I wantyou all to pay for it.
And I think that that's morethan okay.
Because I've had seven.
I've now had six and like, likeif I can have one, I can get my
life, my full license, sooner.
Which is better for you, like.
I tried to like put it all onlike how it was better for them
and they were like, yeah, sure,okay, I'm like great, okay,
awesome.
So that's my seventh and mylast supervisor in North
(18:38):
Carolina which was in withinlike yeah, less than I think
four or five months of mefinishing my internship and
starting my career.
I just started to see the like,turnover and the chaos and how
everybody is like constantlyfighting and if they're not like
they're lying about it, likethey're just being
passive-aggressive.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (18:58):
So that was pretty, but I think
also, pretty insane too is likehearing how much you had to use
your voice and assert yourselfas being right.
A new in.
Was this your internship orfirst job?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (19:11):
oh, okay , so this was the, this was the
layover.
Yeah, right, and you know you'renot supposed to like make like
any noise as an intern and asyour first job, like I think
that's also really important forpeople listening to yours like
it's okay to fucking speak yes,it's actually required because
they kind of expect you to justtake what they give you and I
reckon, like every time I ask,they might like scoff, but they
(19:33):
came and I wasn't asking like Iwas still kind of timid on like
how much I could ask for likewith like salary or that sort of
thing.
But like and I also was 28years old when this was
happening, with life experienceand established of like checking
in on my people pleasing andyou know all of that Whereas
like a 22 year old, fresh out oflike I guess it's underground,
(19:56):
so 24 year old, fresh out oflike, you've been doing school
and you haven't kind of like hadthat life experience yet.
Like I would probably probablybe like burnout and doing
something different if I wasn'table to speak up for myself, and
I think that that's ultimatelysometimes gives me a bad rap.
Cindy's always complaining,cindy's always, you know,
speaking up, but luckily I do itfor other people too, um, which
(20:18):
feels really nice for, like,the people who can't speak up.
I definitely had that same job.
I worked at it for like a yearand a half and I feel like I
worked seven jobs Like I feellike I cause I was just moved
all around.
I worked at a partialhospitalization like location.
I worked at an adultresidential.
I worked at a teen residential,which I really loved because
I'm like still in my like, Iwant all the experience Like so
(20:38):
you want to switch me Cool,great.
But I helped start a PHP programwith this as like a year in
therapist like was creatingpolicies and procedures prior to
AI being a big deal, so veryextensive.
And I start very extensive andI start.
(21:04):
We started it.
We got people in and it wasquickly recognized that my from
eight to 430 because it waseating disorder still.
So I ate lunch.
So I did not have you, don'thave a break at all.
You know, on a lunch break youeat with them like there's
nothing.
So I was working a full 40hours a week and now people
hearing that like yeah,everybody does.
No, no, no, every hour wasspoken for of those 40 hours.
(21:24):
I was definitely working longerthan that with like notes and
paperwork and time to get fromlocation to location.
But what I noticed is thatbecause I was good at my job,
the less help I was receiving.
I think this is the thing too,yep.
So I was like, well, you don'tneed an extra tech, cindy, like
you've got it, or the techyou've got is so experienced
You're okay, or we need to pullthe dietician over, so it's just
(21:47):
going to be you today, butyou've got it, and at the
beginning I'm like that feelsnice, I'm good at my job, right?
Everybody likes that feedbackuntil you realize that it's a
manipulation technique toconvince you to do more with
less right.
This is why really, really goodclinicians burn out and speak
up, and this is why not greatclinicians who don't give a shit
(22:10):
can stay in a job for 30 yearsbecause they're doing the bare
minimum and getting away with it, because no one's going to call
them on it or they're going togive them help or they're going
to you know whatever they need,whereas the people who are like
left to their own devicesbecause they are independent and
can figure things out, are likefuck this, like this is, this
is not okay, which I did say toone of the directors in a
(22:32):
meeting.
I said it feels like you'repunishing me because I'm good at
my job and I can remember allof my supervisors have like I'm
not a quiet person and all mysupervisors have had like the
softest voices and I'm likemaybe it was a good balance.
I don't know, but I remember herbeing like are you hearing the
language that you're using,cindy?
Like punished, and I was likeyeah, yeah, yeah, I know exactly
(22:56):
.
I picked that word veryintentionally there's no other
word that fits here.
Like I am being punished withless staff, less time, less
everything because I'm good atmy job.
Like send me a tech so I can berelieved of my duties, so I can
take a pee break withoutworrying that one of my clients
is going to run away or throwtheir food on the ground or hurt
themselves.
Like I could never leave, ever.
(23:17):
I had no space to do anything,so that was also interesting.
This is when I started to thesupervisor that I had was
wonderful and started reallytalking about like Cindy, how
much longer are you gonna?
You know, keep up with?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (23:28):
like , keep dealing with this because
it will just keep on like yousaid, it will just.
And, depending on whatever jobyou go to, I had I would leave
job every year, year and a halfbecause of that same bullshit,
and you can only do it for solong.
And I would constantly say likeI'm drowning, like I would be
fine, I would get the new joband I'd be like I'm here, and
then they would realize I canfucking do it all, and then I
(23:48):
would just feel like I was justconstantly like in the middle of
the fucking ocean, like barelykeeping it up and all of a
sudden a wave coming andcrashing over me and just
constant.
And they would just laugh at mewhen I would say this and they'd
be like you're not fuckinghearing me, like no one can
sustain us.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (24:02):
This is, this is unrealistic yeah, no, I
had a our administration likeadministrative assistant, front
desk person who is a doll.
I adore her, like it's great,but we had many like battles.
She would come in and be likedo we have time for another
intake?
I'm like I don't know, do we?
I don't Do you, because shewould try to gent, because she
(24:25):
knew I was overwhelmed.
So she was trying to be like,do we have some time?
And I'm like no, we don't.
I said you can look at mycalendar.
I highlight it.
You can see every hour is taken.
I cannot, you know.
Okay, well, maybe so, and socan do it.
And then I would get a calllike an hour later.
That's like, hey, we're sendingsomeone over for two hours so
you can do the assessment.
(24:46):
Like, so you can just sendsomebody over whenever you need
something, but not when I asklike heard, got it?
Yeah, luckily I had an outbecause I was definitely still
in my place of like wanting tomake a name for myself, wanting
to, like, you know, stick it out.
I didn't have an idea of what Iwanted to do quite yet.
After that.
I was not feeling ready to gointo private practice.
(25:06):
And then I had a family healthissue.
My uncle got really, reallysick and I was really close with
him and he also looks exactlylike my dad.
They are like two years apartbut like very, they looked very
similar and and so when he diedI was like I'm moving back, like
it's happening, I'm going tomove back to Indiana.
(25:27):
So I was in North Carolina, Iwas like I'm moving back to
Indiana to be closer to family.
Well, that worked out likeperfect timing, because then I
could quit with like a reason, avalid reason, not just because
I hate it here, which isunfortunate, because I think I
(25:47):
was getting close to being ableto say that, like you know.
But I I put in a four monthnotice.
That was required Because assoon as, like, I went home to
visit, I came back and I waslike I'm going to quit and
giving you a heads up becauseI'm going to move.
So, like, please, don't fire me, because I'm going to move,
like I need the job, it's notbecause I'm like going to the
competitor or whatever.
On my last day of work theystill had not replaced my
position.
I have no idea who they hired.
Like there was zero overlap andI was the only primary
(26:10):
therapist at this location Foreating disorders, for eating
disorders, I for eating the highacuity yeah, high acuity and I
was the only therapist and theywere just like disjointed.
I was hearing horror storiesafter I left that I was like I
can't hear this because, likeI'm a mandated reporter, like it
was like the shit that fellthrough the cracks, the like all
the things I also had.
(26:31):
I was doing an intake at thislocation by myself.
No one else was there.
I think the dietician went tothe grocery store as she needed
to do, but then the front deskperson hopped out for a second.
I was the only one with twopeople in the kitchen and I was
doing an intake and intake'sprivate.
So my door is shut right, justpeople chilling.
I was doing the intake, askingall the questions that are on
(26:53):
there, and one of the questionsis, like you know, around
suicidality, homicidality, likeare you risk to yourself others?
Da, da, da, da, do you have anyweapons?
And to which he grabbed hisknife out of his pocket, opened
it, brandished it and said, yeah, this one.
And I was like, okay, can youput that down, please, can you
(27:15):
put that away now?
Like can we leave that in yourtruck from moving forward?
Like is that going to be okay?
And he was like I just wantedyou to know that it was there,
but yeah, sure I can leave it,like.
So he was kind of totally chill,um, but I was completely alone.
So I called said administrationwho told me that I was crazy
(27:35):
and being for being punished forsaying that.
And I said, yeah, so he justpulled his knife out.
He's hurting.
I bet he was just trying tolike assert some confidence and,
like you know, he's probablyreally insecure.
And I said I don't want to hearhis psychological background
right now when I'm telling you Iwas alone, like because all of
those things might be true and Iwas just completely alone If he
(27:57):
would have attacked me.
No one would have found me forhours.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (sh (28:00):
Should we also just talk about the fun
trainings we get in protectingourself in residential setting?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (28:06):
Which is really like not at all.
Like at this point it's likedon't touch them, but like try
your best.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (28:10):
They would call it so fun fact, I
did like karate as a young kidbut like our karate was like MMA
.
So like you know, arm bars,headlocks, like everything is
the shit I can still do and Istill go to karate.
And they would tell us to useour flipper hands and I would be
like what do you mean a flipperhand?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (28:30):
They're like you know if a client's
coming at you and attacking you.
You do use your flipper handsBecause if they're open, you're
going to touch theminappropriately, and that's what
you're worried about whenyou're being attacked.
Yeah yeah, flipper hands, no Ididn't?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/her (28:40):
I never got that training, yeah,
and I just remember being likeyeah.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (28:44):
But ours was my training at this place
was non-violence, so ours waslast resort touching.
Even if you're being attacked,I'm just supposed to be like,
attack me like it was, like, useyour words.
Basically is the witch.
So in this situation, and thisperson like was a kind human.
I worked with them for a couplemore months, like, but he also
(29:05):
was terminally ill, had nothingto lose, like that's the other
piece that I was like you'resaying, oh, he's just so sad and
hurting.
My other side is like I wasleft alone with someone who has
absolutely nothing to lose, likeyou know, um, and and so from
that point, they also told me,so at that point we had moved to
a shared wall, but like theother side was like a methadone
(29:28):
clinic, like a substance useclinic in, or like day treatment
, and the supervisor said nexttime, go grab Barry, I don't
remember his name.
Go grab Barry if you're feelingscared.
I'm like I was in a closedoffice.
How was I supposed to go grabBarry?
Like he's in a differentbuilding.
Yes, it's attached.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (29:52):
But like it's in a, I'd have to go
out three doors four doors,including my office.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (29:54):
Wait a minute, can you chase me outside
with the knife?
Yeah, so then people can see meand I can scream and like, yeah
, like her answer was to call,and it also pissed me off
because it was the man.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (30:03):
And I'm like.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (30:03):
I don't.
That's a whole other thing.
I'm like this man is like halfmy size, Like the man who I was
supposed to call for help, andI'm like I don't want to call
him for help, Like I want tocall like other people for help.
So I had asked for like anemergency button.
If you're going to leave mealone, I would at least like an
emergency button.
And that was around threemonths left of my job and it
never got there.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (30:24):
Well , they'd also going to replace
you.
I was going to be like how areyou going to get an emergency
button if they didn't replaceyou?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (30:28):
Yep, they never replaced me until I
was gone.
Gone, I also had.
You know, I always see peopleleaving jobs and having like
parties, like, oh, we're goingto miss you.
I've never had one and I'm like, am I that hated?
Or do I leave abruptly, or Ihave an idea.
Is it just not?
We're going to have a party oflike yay, we're going to miss
(30:51):
you so much.
A little like, you know,because I think I see that I'm
like, oh, my coworkers, and likeI literally left my job because
no one was working with.
Like bye to my patients, bye toeveryone that I don't know,
Because, yes, and I was like,wait, I've never had that and
(31:11):
I'm like, but I always have kindof tapered out I gave a four
month long, like it's so long.
I was like I'm leaving at thistime and it was, yeah, it was
insane because they didn't stopanything.
They didn't I even this isanother funny story so, because
it was a shit shit show show.
Um, I had stopped working atadolescent Adolescent was a shit
show.
I had stopped working atAdolescent Adolescent was a shit
(31:33):
show.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (31:34):
They were getting complaints all the
time.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (31:36):
Always a shit show.
You've got so many more.
You've got like the CPSinvolved and the state involved.
Like I get it, why it feelsmore stressful, like I get all
of the reasons why and whythey're there.
But I got a frantic call fromsaid supervisor who has like
treated me like shit and allthis stuff.
Can you please go to the teens?
We're being audited today andyou're the only person who has
(31:57):
access to like XYZ files andlike saw these patients and I
say, yeah, I'll go, sure, I'llsave the day.
That's my.
I like to do that.
I like I'll save your complex.
Sure, I'll save the day.
The woman is like this is herthird or fourth time.
She knows me.
Hey, cindy, like cause she'scome so many times and because I
was leaving, because I was nolonger working there and because
my give a damn had completelybusted every time, she had a
(32:19):
question that I would normallybe like oh, that's probably in
there.
I'm like I don't know.
They must've not done it.
I don't know.
I don't work here anymore.
Why didn't they sign thattreatment plan?
I don't know, because it wasn'tme I would have signed my
treatment plan.
You've seen mine.
You know they're signed because, again.
She's seen me, she knows me atthis point because there's so
(32:40):
many, so said supervisor sendsout a mass email because emails
are tangible.
Thank you so much to Cindy forher help.
Today Text me and says she'sgoing to give me a starbucks
gift card.
Ask me if I received it.
You never got a help button.
There was never, so I got anemail.
I got.
I got an email that went out toeveryone after I was already
(33:02):
leaving, like thanks, cool, likethanks for helping cindy,
you're welcome.
Also, like good luck, because Iwas.
I just didn't lie, I didn't goout of my way to protect anybody
because I was like, why would I?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (33:15):
you wouldn't do that.
I think that's the thing islike, that you like people are
supervisors in these agencies orprivate, toxic, private
practices.
They expect like because I'm incharge, you're going to no like
fuck around, find out uh-huh,yeah, like cause.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (33:30):
We're also like cause there's there's
a the power dynamic, but a lotof the times it's a who knows
who is to like who's in theupper management or you know,
like these sorts of things.
Not because you're better, notbecause you're older and wise,
like you're my peer, like I'veactually seen more clients
face-to-face than you have.
You got out of face-to to faceclient work.
Like as soon as someone offeredyou a manager job, right, like
(33:52):
yeah, and they expect, I think,just compliance.
And and then get reallyfrustrated with like questioning
.
I'm a questions person.
I used to get in trouble withit in sports.
Like I'd be like, well, why amI doing this?
Why, why are we doing thisdrill?
And once they realized that Iactually was genuinely curious
and not just trying to be asmart ass and get out of things
like postpone practice by askingquestions, it started to help.
(34:14):
Right, because I'm like, no, Igenuinely want to know why this
is helpful.
Oh, it's because of this, thisand this.
Cool, I'll do the hard drill,no problem, I just need to know
why.
Like I don't want to be doingsomething for no reason.
I think a lot of yeah, liketoxic group practice owners,
upper management, they justreally expect it.
Because I said so and like wealso know that that's not okay
(34:35):
to say to kids, because they'rehumans Like why do we think it's
okay to say to employees LikeI'm going to question and I'm
going to push back and there isa reason why I work for myself.
Now I do contract with a coupleof group practices, but I still
work for myself.
And one of the reasons yes, Iwill contract with you and I'm
making my own schedule and I'mmaking my own rules and and like
cool, great, the agreement isthere from the jump and it also
(34:55):
sounds like a true 1099 contract, or not?
some bullshit that a lot ofpeople do also like having the
expectations like and that'swhere, again, I was very clear,
which is good for them too,because they also don't want to
be crossing you know theboundaries.
If they're a good practiceowner, they don't want to be
crossing that boundary either,and so you know it works out for
both parties in that.
(35:16):
But also, like I know and thattook me a long time I'm like why
do I hate all of my bosses?
Why do I build resentmenttowards all of my like upper
management, anybody that I haveto, like you know, report to,
and at first I was like becausethey're all horrible people,
which may be true.
But also, like I know thatabout myself, like I could still
be working in like a groupdynamic, a residential, a
(35:38):
partial hospitalization, but Iwould constantly be resentful.
And some people like being toldwhat to do, and not a like
demeaning way, but like do this,this and this this week?
Cool, I love that.
The most direction I have isplease get your fucking notes
done, cindy.
Like that's about the most thatI have right.
Like that's you know before wecan do it please.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/her (35:55):
I know it's like do you want to
get paid?
Can we get?
Cindi Miller (she/her) (35:57):
paid.
I know that one is in because Ihave ADHD.
I need that motivation.
If you tell me it needs to bedone, cool got it Also like a
bitch to your notes.
I'm like I thought I did them.
Oh, that was last Friday.
I'm like, oh, I really thoughtI did them.
So it's one of those thingsthat I think like finding your
area and knowing like I think alot of people go into private
(36:19):
practice who are extroverts andhate it, and I think there's
like I'm an introvert, I workfrom home.
I love every second of it, Likedon't you get lonely?
Nope, because I have the energythen to go see friends after
hours or I set my own hours or Ican go on a walk in the middle
(36:39):
of the day, or that works for me.
But I'm an introvert and I likemy alone time where you know I
think finding your the best fitfor you might be jumping into a
group practice right away, likethat.
Coming back to the beginning,where we talked about like how
there's these rules of like earnyour, keep you know, like get
your, get your feet wet.
There's a comparison to sportsthat I see a lot like when I
work in the club circuit.
So younger kids, they alwaysthrow like the least experienced
(37:02):
coach.
So like the young college kidwith the itty bitties, like the
10, 11 year olds, and thatannoys me because that's where
they learn their bad habits ortheir good habits.
Like that needs to be the topcoaches in the league in the
area coaching the youngins rightwhen they're seniors.
Like give that to anybody theyneed to.
They either work hard or theydon't.
They either want to go furtheror they don't.
(37:22):
Right, like.
I see that same thing in thetherapy realm too, of like the
expectation of throwing theinterns and the fresh out of
grad school counselors to thehighest acuity, the in-home, the
you know highest amounts oftrauma, the like that's the
expectation.
And a lot of therapists I seein these Facebook groups that
are like well, I had to do it.
(37:42):
And I'm like are we still there?
Like are we still at the?
Like I went through it, so youshould have to too.
Like I suffered, so you shouldhave to too.
And like the answer yes, we arestill there.
And that really sucks because Iit's not even like don't be mean
to the new therapist, it's alsolike it's really not fair to
the patients to the clients likeand and I hear that a lot of
(38:03):
like when clients come to me andthey're like well, I had a
therapist that was like at auniversity, but they were only
there for a semester, so I get anew one and then the one had to
have the instructor in becauseshe was so nervous to have
therapy.
Like you know, like I'm like,this is what people's first
experiences of therapy is.
It's no wonder there's such abad like.
It's no wonder that people arelike therapy fucking sucks.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (38:25):
Like there are people out there a
new client and I had.
They asked me, they cursed andthey go oh my god, I'm so sorry,
I'm out of curse.
And I'm like, yeah, you canfucking curse.
They're like oh, my pasttherapist scolded me for cursing
.
I said no, I don't care whatthe fuck we say in here let's go
.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (38:42):
I know I'm like I'm actually if you
want to scold me for not like wearen't a good fit but you can
tell me and I'll like tone itdown a little bit, like or if
that's all you can hear, likeI'll tone it down but like I'm
not gonna tell you how you showup, like that's insane.
I think that that is is one ofmy things, my favorite things
too, I think.
Uh, your last one that youposted about like you need to
cover up your tattoos or yourhey.
(39:04):
So I started my tattoo like Istarted my tattoos as like
hidden places, like where youknow I can always cover them if
I need, because at the time,jobs care about that.
And I started my sleeve and Iwas like if anyone cares about
my tattoos, I don't want to workfor them.
Like I just made that.
Like I was like that's not agood place for me.
Or if people come to me and myhair's pink or purple this time,
(39:24):
or a different color, andthey're like whoa, then you're
not the client for me and that'sokay.
Like I don't, you know, butpeople do like see my tattoos or
see my purple hair and they'relike hell, yeah, that's the
therapist for me.
Cool, great, awesome.
I talk all the time about likeyour presentation, is your
business card right, how youshow up as your business card of
(39:45):
, like who you see, really likea lot of the times.
But yeah, there's a lot ofcrazy stories of so many of and
I feel like my therapyexperience in the beginning,
like I, sometimes I'm like howare those people that like I was
thrilled, like they were thrownto the intern, like I'm like
how are they doing?
Did they go back to right?
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (40:04):
like showing up authentically with
clients.
Sometimes that's, that's thefirst fucking step and granted,
you didn't know like how to Now,probably going in, you'd be
like, okay, I would do this,this, this, this, we could do
this right.
But I think, showing up trulyas yourself, being like, hey,
what the fuck's going on?
How are you today, like thatbreakfast, fucking sucked right.
There's that connection.
There we're clients, we thriveconnection.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (40:35):
And if you can't do that, like yeah, I
will tell you, but like, that'sjust like, I think, a huge piece
of this that we forget aboutfor sure.
And that's where you know allthe people who have become
therapists because they weretold they were good at it, like
yes, that's true sometimes, andsometimes it's because you were
a mediator in a toxic familysystem and you became good at it
.
Not that it was like a naturalthing for you, but a I
definitely like, feel that thatlike being human, showing up as
as yourself, is most of theconnection.
(40:56):
That's how I start.
Any new clients now is likethis is me, this is you,
anything goes.
If I don't have thick enoughskin for what you have to bring
to me, that I will tell you.
You know, because I just I justtook someone on who said their
last therapist was an intern andno, showed them.
They client emailed and said hey, I thought we were supposed to
(41:17):
meet, and the intern respondedwith your stuff is just too much
for me.
It was triggering and and I waslike so then the client has not
seen somebody in like fiveyears, 10 years, because like,
oh, my, too much for even atherapist.
Yes, like and I'm like I am sosorry you had that experience.
It's not a bad thing for thatintern to say that, but like to
(41:39):
no show and then email and tolike it then be read in the tone
that the client wanted to readthat like you're so fucked up.
I can't work with you.
Where the intern might havebeen like this is a lot.
I'm new.
I'm so sorry.
I can't serve you in the bestway.
That may be the intention, butif you can't express that, then
they're going to create thestory that they were and then it
stopped this person from havingtherapy for years and some of
(42:01):
the stories of that I've hadstories like that too, and I'm
just like wait a minute.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/h (42:05):
The therapist said what I'm like no
, we don't say that.
And they're like, oh really.
And I was like, no, they'relike, well, I wasn't the only
one who said that.
And I was like, oh God, and Ifeel like I'm almost like having
to like rehash therapist stuff.
I'd be like, no, that's notappropriate.
Let me tell you why this isn'tappropriate and it's just wild.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (42:30):
What toxic system right now stay out
of the therapist facebook groups.
They say to go in fornetworking, but all it is is
drama, bullshit and will makeyou hate your job like, make you
think that you should be hatingyour job like, and in them.
I do not see them anymore.
I think I've hit them all, orremoved the notifications or
whatever.
Yeah, I was for a while andrealized that I am done arguing
(42:52):
with strangers.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/ (42:53):
This is my local area, so I know who
I'm playing.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (42:55):
You know they are.
Yeah, you know who they are.
We actually had a big fallingout separation during COVID
because there was a Christiantherapist here locally who was
threatening to turn our licensein because we were supporting
the protest no hate in our stateabout support of the
marginalized and she was likeyou're pushing your agenda on on
(43:16):
on your patients and she likewrote an article for some like
right wing that got posted andlike it was so anyway, we
separated.
So now I'm in a very healthylocal facebook group because
before I got threatened to shewas going to report me to the
board.
For I was like because I wastelling her how awful she was,
basically, and for likedefamation.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (43:36):
If I hear the fucking term
defamation one more time, I'myou see how fast I'm gonna like
yeah yeah, yes.
Cindi Miller (she/her) (43:44):
So be very wary if not get out of
Facebook groups, becausetherapists I think are are in
two categories they're eitherworking on themselves or they
aren't, and they are expressingtheir wounds to other therapists
because you can't do it to yourclients.
Some people do, but like yougot to take it out somewhere and
they do it to other therapists.
And not everything's unethical.
(44:04):
And you know, I see all thetime like I did every single one
of my like presentations forone of my grad school classes on
how to, how to toe the lineethically.
So I did one on like shockingIf you've picked anything up
about me I like ride the line, Ifollow rules that make sense
and I hate rules that don't.
So I did an entire paper onbartering and you put can I
(44:26):
barter with a patient?
No, dual, dual relationshipCannot do it.
I'm like, actually the code ofethics says depending on what it
is, where it is, how it goes,all the things I'm like it's not
a cut and dry, it's not blackand white.
That to you.
What else would I say to a newtherapist or someone that needs
to get out is even if the nextplace isn't the best, at least
(44:46):
get to a new place to breathe.
If you're in a really shittytoxic, like you might hear, oh,
this place is just as bad.
You're at least going to getthe honeymoon period, so get out
and change.
I think you said like every yearand a half, like you were kind
of getting to that point and Itell this to clients.
I tell this people in my lifeif it is not good for your
mental health, change it.
Like don't wait until it's sobad that you're miserable or
(45:08):
hurting or have a autoimmunediagnosis to then leave your job
.
Like if it doesn't feel good,start looking right away.
And then also like your timewith your client is the real
thing about therapy.
And if that feels really good,like ignore all the other shit
on the outside.
Yeah, I'm like a big of likeyou're in your own lane.
There's a lot of people in thetherapy world who will tell you
(45:28):
exactly how you're supposed todo it, and there's no right way.
Kayla Schubert Wirth (she/he (45:34):
If you ever felt like speaking up
made you difficult, if being thego-to therapist has left you
drowning in responsibilities andgaslighting, or if you're tired
of being told to be gratefulfor unsafe, unsupported, unpaid
work, you're not the problem,the system is.
Big thanks to Cindy for keepingit real and naming the shit so
many of us have lived through.
(45:54):
If this episode hit you in thegut, tag a friend, share it to
your stories or leave a review.
It helps more burned out, bighearted therapists find their
way back to themselves.
You can learn more about Cindyin the show notes.
Work with me or apply to be aguest on the show.
As always, take no shit andtake care of your nervous system
.
See you next week.
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