November 19, 2025 • 39 mins
We are kicking off Season 4 with a powerhouse conversation as Fabian sits down with Andrew McKie, Co-Founder and Portfolio Manager at Elston Asset Management!
With two decades of experience navigating markets, constructing portfolios, and guiding clients through every economic cycle, Andrew brings unmatched clarity to a world that often feels overly complicated.
In this episode, we unpack how monopolistic advantages, culture, and execution compound far beyond any short‑term chart. Andrew’s path from recession‑era credit collections to stockbroking and on to building a specialist managed accounts platform sets the stage for a masterclass in investing.
If you want a clearer way to weigh value versus growth, judge management by outcomes, whether you're just starting your wealth journey or looking to sharpen your strategy, Andrew’s insights give you the tools and perspective to make smarter, more confident investment decisions
Follow Andrew McKie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-mckie-cfa-99949b40/
Visit the Elston Asset Management website: https://www.elston.com.au/asset-management/elston-asset-management/
Enjoyed the episode? Follow Finance Friends Podcast on Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok for daily updates and more inspiring conversations. Got questions or ideas for future episodes? Send us a DM @financefriendspodcast!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Welcome back to Finance Friends.
I'm your host, Fabian, and thisis season four.
This season we're diving deepinto the world of investing.
Not just where to put yourmoney, but how to think like a
professional investor.
We are bringing youconversations with highly
intelligent, incrediblymotivated investors with weekly
(00:24):
episodes.
Make sure you stay tuned in.
Welcome back to Finance Friendsseason four.
Can't believe it.
To kick things off, we've gotAndrew McKee.
He's the co-founder and MD ofAlston Asset Management, one of
the leading Australianinvestment management firms
based out of Queensland.
(00:45):
They specialise in multi-assetportfolios via managed accounts
and also large cap and small capAussie equities.
Andrew is super insightful.
He started his career studyingeconomics before working the
family business, which is cardealerships, and then working as
a stockbroker, before herealized that he prefers to
(01:06):
manage money long term ratherthan focused on transactional
investment advice.
He shares his insights aroundhis investment philosophy,
talked a lot about monopolisticinvesting, as well as the
difference between growth andvalue investing.
Make sure you have a listen aswe kick things off because he is
(01:27):
a gem.
Andrew, welcome.
Baby inks for having me.
Good to have you in Melbourne.
Yes.
Just talking about crazy windyesterday and pollen in the air.
So if we have a coffin fithalfway through, please excuse
us.
SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
Yeah, thank you for the peppermint team, mate.
That was a nice touch.
Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Well, I I make sure I look after my guests.
They make it a special gift, aspecial um travel from Brisbane.
SPEAKER_03 (01:55):
Yeah, coming down to Melbourne for the good weather.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
And uh so have you always lived in Brisbane?
SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
Uh I was actually born in Townsville.
So yeah, so Queenslander throughand through us.
All your all your New SouthWales listeners just turn off
now, but um so yeah, Townsvilleand then then Brisbane mostly uh
when growing up, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:16):
Yeah, I spent a few, did a few trips to Townsville.
I was sure I was I was seeingsomeone in Townsville for a
while.
SPEAKER_03 (02:22):
Oh, yeah, okay, right.
Yeah, I realize it's not theplace for me.
Yeah, uh beautiful placenonetheless.
Yeah, you would have been thequality flying into Townsville,
weren't you?
Yeah, interesting.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, it's an interesting place,not so warm.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
So did you so you you went to high school in
Townsville?
SPEAKER_03 (02:38):
Is that right?
No, I went to I was like a babybasically there, and then we
moved to Brisbane when I wasprobably five or six.
Okay.
My parents were from uh NorthQueensland, so a little country
town called Serena, which isjust outside of Mackay.
Yep.
Um, so they sort of traveledaround a bit for work and things
and then moved to Brisbane.
Yeah.
And what did your parents do forwork?
SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
And the reason why I ask you is did that have an
influence on you and yourcareer?
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
Oh, I think it definitely did.
I mean, uh, not you know,salubrious background, you might
say.
So um both left school, I think,you know, sort of nine, grade
nine, grade ten.
So dad was uh apprentice motormechanic, mum worked at the
council there, and then um,yeah, just a good lesson in sort
of progress and opportunitythat's in Australia to, you
(03:22):
know, if you work hard andyou've got ability, you can sort
of go well.
So um, yeah, you went, you know,from um apprentice motor
mechanic to mechanics, so thensales, and then eventually ran
dealerships and then eventuallygot to buyer dealerships.
So it's in the um uh new new carum franchise dealership network,
so had few of those.
(03:43):
So um, so definitely that uhphilosophy of you know investing
in your career and um workinghard and you know the
opportunities will come.
Uh but also from you know abusiness point of view, he had a
good business, he looked afterthe team really well.
I think he understood uminherently that you know the the
business is really just acollection of people sort of
(04:05):
coming together, yeah, and theyou know you've got to look
after the team.
Um, you know, they look aftercustomers, and um you know if
you build a philosophy aroundthat you'll have probably a
pretty good business.
SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Yeah, I think that's obviously important.
Team and culture sort of drivesbusiness.
Yeah, exactly.
So at what point in your lifewas it during high school that
you started wanting to studybusiness or do finance?
Or was it sort of a laterthought in life?
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
Yeah, I wasn't sort of the best student.
I think probably um, you know,around the kitchen table,
learning a lot around, you know,business and managing uh people
and I guess uh the stresses ofbusiness, you know, from a young
age.
Um probably good at sort ofmath, you know, despite myself,
you know, was pretty good.
So then yeah, just got aninterest in that probably later
(04:58):
on in in high school and wentdown that sort of accounting
economics sort of route and thenum you know, probably last year
started studying and then got touni and just did economics at
uni.
I did like uh the broader sortof thinking around economics and
sort of the behavioural aspectsand also the cyclical nature of
(05:19):
uh yeah, the thought processesthat goes into that and the
consequences and so on.
And I think that's helped a lotin um you know investment career
as well, because it's uhobviously has a huge influence.
SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
Yeah, I think macro plays more important role than
than micro.
Yeah.
See, everyone has differentdifferent thoughts on that.
So then when you finisheduniversity, what did you do?
SPEAKER_03 (05:42):
Uh I came out in the pretty deep sort of recession of
the 90s, so wasn't a lot around,so scratching around.
Uh got a job with Westpac intheir graduate program.
Um, so had sort of a bit ofexperience through various
parts, but um the boom, boompart of the industry at that
time was credit collections,because obviously we're in
(06:02):
recession, so um I started sostarted you know ringing people
up, basically collecting moneyuh for the bank.
So um that was interesting.
Um, you know, progressed rightthrough to repossessing cars
when you were 21.
So um it was an interestingstuff.
I hope you were going to the gymback then.
No, I certainly wasn't.
So uh yeah, they'd I don't knowif I'd probably leave my actual
(06:22):
name, you know, when I wasrecording a message there.
So um, but yeah, that was a thatwas a good um I guess insight
into perhaps making badfinancial decisions.
Yeah.
Uh worked, you know, in evencredit approvals and back in the
day, you know, like a HarveyNorman, you know, an
interest-free loan, thenconverted to a 33% interest loan
(06:46):
if you didn't pay it off intime, so that sort of stuff.
So yeah, there was some goodfoundational parts of that.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
And how do you from that position, what can you talk
me through?
Let's just keep going throughyour career.
I want to know how do you how dolisteners all want to know how
do you go from being aneconomics student to possessing
cars to to leading, you know,one of one of the largest um,
you know, the massive investmentmanagement firm.
SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Yeah, um, I think um, you know, you go from there
to I think always do furtherstudy, so that was definitely
the case.
I did work in the familybusiness for a few years um
whilst also studying.
So I I went uh back and didgraduate diploma in um applied
finance with FinZier, and then Ialso did uh um a graduate
diploma in financial planningwith FinZier and whilst working
(07:34):
in the business, and that sortof also you know gives you a
foundation in um investmentmarkets as well as uh financial
planning, I guess, back in theday.
Um and then uh decided to leavethe family business that wasn't
sort of my go and um and workedin stockbroking.
So got a job with um uh one ofthe larger firms in in Brisbane
(07:55):
and um and that's sort of wherethe career and sort of equities
went from there.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Yeah, so you're a stockbroker because there's many
stockbroker or were you anequity analyst at a stockbroking
firm?
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
No, stockbroker.
So started on the sort of deskand then um yeah, just gradually
sort of learnt a trade fromthere.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
So what does a what does a stockbroker do back in
the what is it to 90s 2000s,yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:19):
Um look, it's you know, it's sell side basically,
so you know, reverses buy side,so just a very different um
philosophy, you might say, to aninvestment buy side person,
particularly longer term.
So, you know, ultimately thebusiness model is geared around
transactional, you know,turnover.
And so ideas and uh, you know,generating those ideas were
(08:44):
critical.
Um and I think although that wasa good foundation of
understanding businesses andunderstanding investors and
understanding markets and thingslike that, uh, probably didn't
really resonate with theconflicts there in terms of
perhaps long-term investingversus you know the the
short-term need from a businessmodel perspective of generating
turnover.
Yeah.
Um, but you know, you learn froma lot of great people as well.
(09:06):
It's a very well-establishedfirm, been around over a hundred
years.
So, you know, there was a lot ofhistory with that firm and um
and a lot of great knowledgeknowledge there as well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
So for our for our investors, uh listeners that
might not know, a stockbrokerwill get research internally or
research their own companiesthat might be listed in
Australia.
Yeah, then they'd call theirclients or email their clients
and say, hey, I've got anopportunity that we think this
company is going to go well.
Yeah.
Do you want to buy this companyand then we charge you will
charge a fee to make thattransaction.
SPEAKER_03 (09:36):
That's right.
I mean, most the two revenuestreams for most stockbroking
firms are um transactionalturnover, you know, so
brokerage.
Yeah.
And then the other one is um iscorporate finance.
So uh there's a there's arelated, they're they're related
in the sense that um a lot ofthe broke broking side is you
know seen as distribution fortheir corporate.
(09:57):
So they'll do you know,obviously capital raisings and
new IPOs and uh placements,might be equity and debt, um,
and they distribute that throughyou know their their broking
network, so both in retail andinstitutional.
Um, and they have anunderwriting fee as well.
So they're the two main revenuestreams for most broking firms,
still the case today.
(10:17):
Um, and uh yeah, and and it's anecessarily part of the
industry, you know, but um it'sjust whether or not that sits
with your broad up investmentphilosophy, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
And is the can you recall an IPO back in the day
that you're very excited aboutwhen you're working as a broker
and you brought to your clientsthat has been a success story
today?
SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
Oh look, I think one of the most interesting ones was
actually the ASXdemutualization.
So um back in the day, everystate had an exchange.
So they were all, you know, theNew South Wales Exchange and the
Queensland Exchange, and theymerged to become the ASX
Australian Stock Exchange.
They had members um who had aseat at the exchange, and they
(10:58):
would for that seat they wereable to, you know, do trading
and and so on on the exchange.
Um, so and it was a mutual, sothey demutualized, and um, and
so if you had a seat on theexchange, you got issued uh
shares in the float of the ASXper member.
I think back in the day it waslike 167,000 shares if you were
(11:21):
a member of the exchange backthen.
So, you know, what they aretoday, whatever there's$70 a
share, well$60 a share.
So, you know, they did very wellout of that.
But that was you know, that wasan interesting sort of process.
Um, and you know, a good letgood lesson there.
One of the sort of older heads,one of the partners sort of
there who who was a member ofthe exchange.
(11:43):
You know, I was a young persongoing, you know, do we buy
what's the target price?
You know, do it is it somethingwe should buy?
And he's just leant over to meand gone, it's a monopoly, just
buy it.
So I think that resonated fromuh quality of business over sort
of price of the stock.
So that you know, over the longterm a quality sort of business
(12:04):
monopolistic power, procingpower, competitive advantage
they shine through, whereas inthe short term you get a bit
obsessed with the immediateprice of the business itself.
So that was a good lesson.
SPEAKER_02 (12:15):
So have you taken that lesson to the way you
invest today and look forcompanies that have uh you know
monopoly in their market or youknow that creates pricing power?
SPEAKER_03 (12:27):
Yeah, I think Rupert Murdoch said it once once that
um you know monopolies are aterrible thing unless you own
one.
And so I think they're very likeit is a foundational part of
business.
You know, if you if you havepricing power and control of you
know the price of the productyou're selling, regardless of
what it is, um, usually you'vegot a higher return on capital
(12:50):
and better cash flows and morerobust sort of business.
And so those principles of whatmakes a good business, they may
not all be monopolies, but theycould be monopolistic in their
in their in the way that thatindustry is structured or the
way they've built theirbusiness.
So I think that goes to sort ofsecurity of your capital longer
term and more robustness of thatbusiness.
(13:11):
So one would be say, like aMichael Porter, who's Porter's
Five Forces, which actually goesthrough you know what are the
five forces of competitivestructures and it helps you to
sort of identify really goodbusinesses, um, control of their
suppliers or customers and soon, you know, the likelihood of
substitutes coming in, yeah,those sort of things.
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
Yeah, the barriers to entry, etc.
Yeah, and Australia, we're notwe're not big for pushing
competition.
SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
No, no.
SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
We we love to have individual or dual or four
banks, for example, that's it,you know, can control market
share.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Yeah, it's an interesting um global dynamic in
Australia that um and we're alarge cap, so we're ASX 100, and
one of the reasons we sort ofsay it's good in Australia is
you end up with these sort ofconcentrated market positions.
No one really knows why.
One of the reasons is thatperhaps um, you know, we have a
we have uh you know largegeographic sort of area, but um,
(14:09):
you know, reasonably smallpopulation versus the US, say
where you've got reasonablesized cities, um, and there's a
lot of them, that five to tenmillion.
And so they can have areasonable business start in one
of those cities and then growfrom there.
But uh perhaps with us, thatconstraint of geography doesn't
allow that to happen so much orso easily.
That's one of the reasons thatare out there.
(14:29):
But you name an industry, you'reprobably looking at a fairly,
like you've already said, youknow, duopoly cartel, monopoly
type structure, often in largecaps.
So um you're already sort ofpart ahead of the game.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Yeah, well, I guess the for them to get to ASX 100,
they've probably had somestraight hold over the
Australian market.
SPEAKER_03 (14:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
But it's just a uniqueAustralian thing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
So then from stockbroking, uh, how long were
you in that role for?
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
Uh so really started in that and then switched to um
more the wealth side probably in2008, and that's when we started
the business.
And uh from there was more westarted as more of a wealth
management business, so moretraditional planning, which is
the planning background that Ihad as well.
And then from there we went toreally um, we were a very early
(15:20):
adopter of managed accounts,yeah.
Uh, IMA, so individually managedaccounts, and also then SMA, so
separately managed accounts.
SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
So, what's the difference between the two for
our audience?
SPEAKER_03 (15:32):
The IMAs, if you looked at the three main
structures, you've got a unittrust, like managed fund, you've
got a SMA, which is essentiallya model portfolio, um, but it
de-unitizes the investment.
So you can have directportfolio, but there's one
model.
Yeah.
An IMA will still have typicallya model portfolio, but they're
(15:53):
individual customizableportfolios.
Whereas under an SMA, everyonegets the same model.
You know, they all get the sameportfolio, even though it's
direct ownership, which hasdistinct structural advantages
over unitized investment, um,cash flow management, tax
management, and so on.
But it's sort of like the nextlevel up in terms of tax
optimization and customisationis an IMA.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
And giving you we're one of the first businesses to
launch managed accounts, um, howhow did you why did you what
made you do that?
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
I think um, yeah, originally if we look back at
hub, net wealth, those platformsdevelopment, um, it was about
taking de-unitizing investmentsand how do we do that scalably?
You know, how do we manage adirect portfolio professionally?
Um, and you know, not have allyour money in a unit trust, have
it directly owned for all thetax advantages.
And they were sort of veryobsessed with that.
(16:48):
And uh we had a similar view.
We think that ultimatelyprovided um you know great
benefits to investors.
And uh, and so you know, we'd goalong, I'd go along to the
independent, you know, societyof managed account providers,
and they'd all be there and we'dbe there.
And um, yeah, back in the day itwas a bit of a cottage industry,
to be honest.
And um, we just thoughtultimately it goes well for
(17:10):
advisors if you're a goodadvisor and you you would be
conscious of tax and after-taxreturn management, structural
structural sort of discussionsuh for clients, you know, you're
trying to maximize after-taxreturns, minimize fees, all
those things.
Um, then that if you if you arelike that, then that has a
distinct structural advantage.
(17:31):
So that's why.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
And obviously operational efficiency, I would
imagine, because if you, youknow, when you're a stockbroker,
you'd have to place, you know,20 of your clients, you call
your clients, they want to, theyall want to buy the ASX, then
you'll have to do 20 calls, 20trades.
SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
Yeah, and the same with uh with financial planning
as well.
You know, if you if you reallysaw the explosion of uh manager
accounts that occurred post-RuleCommission, and the reason for
that is just the complianceburdens on a financial advisors.
So whether it be a stock or anindividual fund, if they had to
switch, there would be a arecord of advice required.
That's administration, perhaps aphone call, and so on.
(18:08):
Um, you know, the financialadvisor uh typically will run
out of steam at maybe you know,20 clients if they're ringing
each one.
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
So what you also find is that it led to um you
know inequ inequity.
You know, often it was thebiggest clients that get the
phone call, and the smallestclients got the last were last
to hear about anything, or thechange never happened because it
was just slow, um, you know,manual sort of processes for
financial planners.
And so there's an equity thingthere.
(18:39):
I think in all clients aregetting treated the same and get
the best execution um in a youknow sort of timely manner.
And uh, I think also what yousee in the financial planning
industry is that because of theadministrative burden, the
changes to the portfolio usuallyoccurred at the annual review.
(18:59):
So the best time of the year forFabian's portfolio to be
adjusted just happened to be theday that you did your annual
review with your financialadvisor, and nothing else
happened throughout the year.
That didn't really fly in themodern world, and I think um
modern investors expect morethan that um from their advisor.
They expected them to be alittle bit more proactive than
(19:20):
that, and I think that's anenabler as well.
So that's we sort of saw thatcoming and saw the advantages to
investors, advantages toadvisors, and we were lucky to
sort of come in at the back ofthat sort of um tailwind for the
industry.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
So you too.
When you started the business,how many partners were there?
And do they all come from theprevious stockbroking firm that
you were working at?
SPEAKER_03 (19:38):
Oh, it's a bit of a mix now because the two the two
main businesses we've got stillgot the wealth business, so we
still understand advisors and uhthe pressures for advisors.
I think there's symbioticrelationship there, there's a
lot of learnings, and thenthere's obviously the asset
management team as well, arealso equity holders.
So there's a bit of a mix ofboth.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
So can you maybe share a little bit of
information about the businessand the name of it, how big you
are, and um how many employeesand Elston is the is a business.
SPEAKER_03 (20:07):
So Elston Private Wealth, we look after about two
and a half billion um in thatbusiness, and that's uh private
individuals, typicallyself-funded is our market, maybe
not ultra high net worth, but umyou know average portfolio size
is around two million, and mostof that is IMA customizable
portfolios from a tax point ofview.
And then um, and then assetmanagement, so Elston Asset
(20:29):
Management, and we arespecialist managed account
providers, uh, mostlymulti-asset class.
Uh, we do also have Australianequities, both large cap, which
is the team that I'm in.
Um there's six in that team.
And then we also have emergingleaders, Aussie equities as
well, which is X100.
So um, yeah, so we cover thesort of range as a multi-asset
(20:52):
class team that do all the uh uhall the selections and due
diligence on managers, bothpassive and active managers
across the main asset classesoutside of equities, and then we
have you know equities team thatthat do that directly.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
Yeah, and what's your role within the fern?
SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
So I'm managing director of the overall group.
Uh so my role is more sstrategic.
Uh so where are we going?
We're doing that strategic cycleat the moment.
So that's a three-year cycle.
So I would get involved in that,um, trying to formulate you know
where we're going um in thebroad context, keeping strategy
pretty simple, um, and then justreally focusing on execution and
(21:30):
making sure the executive teamare focused on that execution,
culture, stakeholder thinking,that type of uh that sort of
thinking goes into uh strategyas well for our business.
So that's my role.
Um, but it's not a sort offull-time gig.
My day day job is in AussieEquities large cap team.
So there's four portfoliomanagers on one of one of the
(21:53):
four, and then we have a team ofanalysts as well uh that we work
with.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
So can you explain?
You've talked about monopolisticcharacters of uh characteristics
of a of a of a company.
That's obviously oneconsideration when you when you
look to pick stocks.
Can you share your investmentphilosophy or process with our
audience?
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
Look, I think one of the advantages of Elson is that
uh we do have four portfoliomanagers, we all get a vote and
we also have all differentviews.
And so I think that dilutes thepotential risks of having
biases.
You know, everyone's gotbehavioural biases and styles,
things like that.
So I think that's a good thing.
It rounds that out.
Uh for me personally, I'd bemore of a style agnostic person.
(22:37):
So I would look at businessesum, if you might say, on a
relative basis.
So to way to explain that, Iguess, is that every business
has a value.
It's just determining um thegrowth of that business and uh
the quality of that business towork out what that value should
be.
Um if you look at say multiples,I think people don't understand
(23:00):
multiples well.
Say if I pay 10 times PE for abusiness versus say 15 times PE
for the business, it's hard tosort of conceptually get that.
And why would you do that?
I think the best way to explainit is to inverse that in terms
of what is your return.
And people can relate to returnsa lot better.
(23:22):
So if you if you pay 10 timesearnings for a business, your
return is 10%.
You're gonna get 10% return backin terms of the profits that
you've purchased.
So it's easier to understandthat.
Now, if you pay 30 timesearnings for something, you get
three percent return on yourcapital.
So why would you do that?
Yeah why would you why would youwillingly get a lower return?
(23:46):
And so under understanding thatthere is a linkage between the
valuation and the growth and thequality of that business.
So you might pay 30 timesjustifiably if that say 3%
return is doubling every threeyears, yeah, versus the 10%
return might be static and notgrowth.
So you can only relate or valuesof businesses only are relatable
(24:12):
or relative to something else.
Yeah.
So growth, quality of thosebusinesses, and so on.
So that's that's sort of my viewis that um, you know, you can
have variety rather than beingsort of style, these are growth
type businesses, these are valuetype businesses.
No, it doesn't really matter.
They all have their ownvaluation.
What you need to look at is therelative context is what's the
(24:34):
growth of that business like?
Is that justified in terms ofits valuation?
Yeah, it's a different level ofthinking about it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
Yeah, because it's one thing, past growth is no
guarantee of future growth.
SPEAKER_03 (24:45):
Yeah.
As well.
And I think you know, that's whyum a high quality business
should should get a highermultiple because it is more
predictable.
Yeah.
You know, so um you don't knowwhat earnings are gonna be for
any business.
So you know, if you it's a bigguess, really.
Yeah.
You know, it's where glorifiedvalues at the end of the day, we
(25:06):
don't really know what's gonnahappen with markets.
You certainly don't know what'sgonna happen with businesses.
But as you get into thosestructures of businesses,
they're more predictable,therefore you have more
certainty, therefore, you canpay more for that business.
SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
Yeah.
So is there an example of a acompany that you have invested
in, I don't know, say the lastfive or ten years that's done
exceptionally well?
Yeah.
And can you maybe share a littlebit of insight into your your
thesis behind that investment?
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
Yeah, I think something like Macquarie Bank,
um, we've owned for you know 13,14 years in the in the
portfolio.
Um, probably bought it was$25 orsomething, it's$230 a share.
But um really why, I guess, isthat um it's the culture of that
business, it's the um sort offreedom within boundaries, uh,
(25:56):
risk framework, theentrepreneurial nature of that
business, and its ability toadapt over time and drive more
quality, um, then it'sgeographic expansion.
Yeah, you know, so um and theytend to go in niche.
So they might expand into Braziland they'll have a small team
that has a particular niche,might be in, I don't know,
derivatives or something, andthen they build relationships
(26:18):
from there, and that's how theyexpand the business
geographically.
So um, you know, if we look atit long term, their opportunity
set is enormous.
So if you're versus say adomestic Aussie bank selling
residential mortgages, um youknow, you're a pretty limited
sort of way they go.
Yeah, so um those I think that'sa uh a great business and great
(26:41):
example of uh why cultureenvironment is really critical
and strategy is really critical,longer term thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Um do you get to meet the management of these
businesses to get a feel for theculture?
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Like one of the one of the things that we try to
work through is that you knowevery every CEO tells you how
great their business is.
So you have to be a a bit of acynic.
Yeah.
And so you need to really besure.
And so one of the ways of beingsure is trying to test them out
on what they say they're gonnado versus what they actually
(27:16):
actually done.
So execution is way moreimportant than strategy.
So you can have a greatstrategy, they can talk about
their 10-page you know,PowerPoint deck of what they're
going to do, but if they don'texecute on it or they haven't
executed in the past, they'vegot no sort of management sort
of credibility.
So execution always trumps uhthe strategy, and so their
(27:38):
ability to execute over time isway more important.
So actually, historic versusforward-looking um you know,
execution.
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
It's interesting.
I when I did my MBA, I heard aum an uh interesting line that
said uh culture each strategyfor breakfast.
I don't know if you've heardthat before.
Yeah, yeah.
So you've just one thing havinga strategy, it's the other thing
you know, having the people tobe able to execute it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
Yeah, you can have and complex strategies over
simple strategies.
So, like a great example, Ithink, that's we've just added
Seek in the portfolio, it ismonopolistic in in Australia as
well, but um Seek has threestrategies.
You know, they want to takemarket share, so want to
increase their market share inplacements, um, they want to um
(28:21):
increase prices over time, andthey want to have operating
leverage, so discipline aroundtheir costs.
So they've got three strategies.
That's it.
The the the hard bit is execuexecuting on that strategy.
Well, so you want to increaseyour market share, but how do
you actually increase yourmarket share?
You know, that's not easy to do.
So then it's the the detail ofhow they actually go about
(28:44):
execution of that.
But simplicity is also critical.
If you've got a 10-pointstrategy plan and you know they
execute two out of the 10pointless, you better off have
three and execute on all three.
Yeah.
So, you know, a good example ofum simplicity of a strategy
execution.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Um it's also easy to have you, you know, followers on
board if they understand andknow the strategy and it's not
too complicated.
SPEAKER_03 (29:08):
Correct.
And if it changes every week, anew new strategy every week,
what's the you know, the teamgets really confused with that?
So, you know, you've got to sortof put the flag on the hill and
and go for it.
It gives people certainty andthey understand where they're
going.
And I think that that'simportant as well.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yeah.
And what about uh an investmentyou've made that haven't hasn't
gone right?
And what did you learn fromthat?
SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Oh, look, as fund managers, you get sort of there
is no ego because it just itgets beaten out of you very
quickly.
Um, you know, it is a race thathas no finish.
So um, you know, there's justjust name it.
You know, I could thousands ofthings I beat myself up about.
Yeah.
Now, it can be something you'vebought that's gone down, but it
(29:48):
equally can be something you'vesold that continues to go up.
And that's that's a painfulexperience as well.
So, you know, it's a big thing.
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
I sold a stock about six months ago.
Oh yeah.
And then um Rare earth is takeit off and I'll just 75% on the
table.
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
Yeah, it goes nowhere for 10 years and then
suddenly has three months bang.
But um so look, I I just thinkit's a constant learning, and
that's why it's such a greattrade to be in and profession to
be in.
And um, you know, I think it'syour humility comes along with
that because you just have somany errors along the way and
you beat yourself up so much.
I think Kerry Packer said itreally well.
(30:27):
If you could um be right 60% ofthe time, you'd end up ruling
the world.
You know, he would end up rulingthe world because you know the
the probabilities and thepercentages are just stacked a
little bit in your favour.
But it means you're gonna be 40%wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:42):
Now, in investment markets, you it's probably 55,
45 at best.
Yeah.
You know, so you gotta get usedto being wrong in in the
industry and um and you know,overcome that and learn from
that and then try and just getbetter over time.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
The thing is, if you invest a dollar in a business,
you can only lose one dollar,but that dollar could turn into
ten dollars if the business goestenfold.
SPEAKER_03 (31:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
So your upside's uncapped and your downsides
capped at your capital.
SPEAKER_03 (31:07):
That's right.
Yeah, and Macquarie's a goodexample,$25.
Anyway, along that journey,GFCs, there's been a long
journey along there.
COVID, um, there's always abroker report sell side
experience.
You know, there's a there's abroker report every day about
Macquarie, whether target price,sell it, buy it, whatever, you
know, you've got to get thetransaction going.
Um you almost need to ignorethat and just just flow through
(31:31):
with the lot longer-term qualityof that business.
So, you know, and if you youcould have sold it many times
over in that journey, you know,so um and and paid the price for
that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
Yep.
And the business that you're apart of, Alison, how would
someone invest in your in in thefunds?
So you have the AustralianEquity Large Cap Fund,
Australian Equity Um X100 oremergent companies, yeah.
And then you have a managed uhaccount option.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
So how would someone access that?
Look, most of our clients onasset management, we look after
about six billion there.
Most of our clients are actuallyfinancial advisors, which is why
we need to understand the adviceindustry really well, because a
managed account is a practicemanagement solution as much as
much as it is an investmentsolution.
So to access us, typically it'sthrough a financial advisor.
(32:22):
Now we're on, I think, most ofthe major platforms, you know,
eight or nine of the majorplatforms.
And uh and managed accounts areuh are typically multi-asset
class.
So going from conservativelyconstructed to right up to sort
of high growth, maybe pureAustralian equities.
Uh, and so you know, that'susually how you access, not to
(32:42):
say that you can't access usdirectly, you can access us
access us directly through theplatforms as well.
SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
You don't need a financial advisor, but that's
where you can set up like a netwealth account and say I want to
invest in the Alston Aussieequity fund.
SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
Yep, yeah.
Um, and you know, we're justextending that as well.
So for example, we've justlaunched income SMA.
So we're going from we'relooking more at the issues for
advisors where they've gotdifferent demographics to deal
with, you know, and um agingpopulation.
Yeah, so um income security, ummoving a lot of people, baby
(33:17):
boomers typically are moving nowinto that drawdown phase.
So cash flow matching, uh, sowe've built a specific model
variant for that uh that's trueto label in terms of income
generation, um, more certaintyof income, predictability of
income, both in terms of theequities component but the
non-Australian equitiescomponent as well.
And we're currently incubatingmore of a high growth version as
(33:40):
well, so high growth SMA.
So an advisor can, you know,have got a younger demographic
who's looking to accumulate youknow assets, they'll be say ASX
100, but the higher growthbusinesses, yeah.
Um, the combination of thatportfolio with the emerging
leaders as well, so they're sortof put together, and then the
(34:00):
exposures outside of Aussieequities are also growth type
managers as well.
So it's they're all true tolabel in terms of their
components and allows an advisorto bring their client through
that journey or target specificdemographics of client.
Um, and it can also be for tax.
So you could have a uh say uhthe growth will typically have
lower turnover, lowerrealizations.
(34:22):
So someone in a higher taxentity um would go into that, uh
they'll pay less tax on acapital gains tax point of view.
Um, equally the income versionmight have more turnover, um, so
more realizations, obviously,more income, more franking
credits, and so on.
Um, so someone who's got say acapital loss that they want to
absorb, you know, over timethrough realizing capital gains,
(34:43):
that would be so you can alsooverlay tax optimization at the
advisor level as well.
SPEAKER_02 (34:49):
So and also a lot of people that will need income are
probably you know investingthrough their super fund and in
pension phase.
SPEAKER_03 (34:55):
So franking credits, rebates tax-free at this point.
SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
Who knows what will change in the future.
That's right.
As governments uh put their handon the big pool.
SPEAKER_03 (35:03):
Yeah, yeah.
I was a shame I just sawrecently that Reese, um you
know, Reese Plumbing just did auh a buyback of their shares.
And uh they you know it's prettytightly held by the Wilson
family, so it's is not a lot ofshares around.
So they actually did it offmarket, so people just you know
submit their shares that theywant bought back and the company
buys them back.
(35:24):
But um prior to 2022, you coulddo that as a structured buyback
where the listed company couldbuy it back with say a smaller
capital component.
So in this case it was$13, theymight give you five dollars of
capital, and the rest would be afully frank dividend, yeah.
With a with the attachedfranking credits, it was a way
of distributing franking creditsout to uh to the owners, to the
(35:48):
to the shareholders.
Um, that's been stopped from2022.
I think it's a real shame.
It's still available for privatecompanies, but it's not
available for for listedcompanies.
And I think you know, inAustralia, those franking
credits are owned by theshareholders, that it's their
asset.
Yeah.
And you know, limiting theability to distribute them is I
(36:08):
think a real shame and um andand something I think that
should be changed.
I mean you think in a privatecompany that's how you do it.
You could buy back stock all daylong and do that and distribute
those out.
But yeah, there are there are atax-free, you know, risk-free
advantage for Aussie investors,and you know, the company's paid
the tax on their behalf and theydeserve to be able to receive
(36:30):
those.
So they made some particularcomments around that as well,
which was good.
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
And uh might just towards the end, and I know you
have to fly out.
So where do you see the themarket in the next sort of three
to six months?
Because it seems likeeverything's quite expensive
around at the moment.
Most asset assets are at atrecord highs.
SPEAKER_03 (36:49):
Yeah.
Look, um anybody tells you whatthe they think the market's they
know what the market's gonna dois you know, lying, basically.
So, you know, we don't knowwhat's going to happen with
markets.
I don't anyone can.
So um, but what we do know isthat there's certain things we
don't want to participate atthis stage, and so it's easy in
the Australia's Aussie equitiescontext to sort of avoid certain
(37:11):
areas.
And I think outside of thosecertain areas, there's a lot of
actually opportunity.
Um, and it's related to aparticular market dynamic at the
moment, which is momentum-baseduh trading.
So momentum is not fundamental.
It doesn't matter about what Iwas saying, you know, in terms
of multiples and growth and youknow, quality of business, it
doesn't matter.
(37:32):
That that's out the door.
It's very much charts.
Yep.
If the share price is going up,then you buy, and if it's going
down, you sell.
If it's on, if it's you know, 10times earnings, it can go to two
times earnings, if it's on 50times earnings and go to 100
times earnings, doesn't reallymatter.
So, um, so there's thosemomentum um driven uh uh
(37:52):
opportunities because if you area fundamentalist with a longer
term fundamentalist with along-term view, you presented
those opportunities all thetime.
You gifted these opportunities,um, and so we see a lot of these
sort of gifts at the moment.
Um, and when that changes, andthere's a change from being
purely momentum-based, who knowswhen that will be, but then
(38:14):
you'll you'll sort of reap therewards of that.
So we see a lot of opportunityout in some of those sort of
names.
SPEAKER_02 (38:20):
Yeah, awesome.
Thank you very much for comingin.
It's been a pleasure.
Yeah, good to know you over thelast few years.
And well, you're a client ofRever Recruitment, so thank you.
I've heard you present many atimes, and I'm sure our audience
will get a lot of insight fromour discussion today.
SPEAKER_03 (38:35):
Thanks a lot, I mean, I really appreciate the
invitation.
Cheers.
SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
Thanks for listening this week.
Stay tuned for our next episodeand keep up to date with us by
following the Finance Friendspodcast on Instagram and TikTok.
Plus, connect with us and ourguests over on our LinkedIn
page, all linked in the shownotes.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Disclaimer This podcast exists for informational
and entertainment purposes only.
The personal opinions of thespeaker and guests do not
represent the view of any otherparty.
If this recording containsreference to financial products,
that reference does notconstitute advice nor
recommendations and may not berelied upon.
Welcome back to Finance Friends.
I'm your host, Fabian, and thisis season four.
This season we're diving deepinto the world of investing.
Not just where to put yourmoney, but how to think like a
professional investor.
We are bringing youconversations with highly
intelligent, incrediblymotivated investors with weekly
(00:24):
episodes.
Make sure you stay tuned in.
Welcome back to Finance Friendsseason four.
Can't believe it.
To kick things off, we've gotAndrew McKee.
He's the co-founder and MD ofAlston Asset Management, one of
the leading Australianinvestment management firms
based out of Queensland.
(00:45):
They specialise in multi-assetportfolios via managed accounts
and also large cap and small capAussie equities.
Andrew is super insightful.
He started his career studyingeconomics before working the
family business, which is cardealerships, and then working as
a stockbroker, before herealized that he prefers to
(01:06):
manage money long term ratherthan focused on transactional
investment advice.
He shares his insights aroundhis investment philosophy,
talked a lot about monopolisticinvesting, as well as the
difference between growth andvalue investing.
Make sure you have a listen aswe kick things off because he is
(01:27):
a gem.
Andrew, welcome.
Baby inks for having me.
Good to have you in Melbourne.
Yes.
Just talking about crazy windyesterday and pollen in the air.
So if we have a coffin fithalfway through, please excuse
us.
SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
Yeah, thank you for the peppermint team, mate.
That was a nice touch.
Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Well, I I make sure I look after my guests.
They make it a special gift, aspecial um travel from Brisbane.
SPEAKER_03 (01:55):
Yeah, coming down to Melbourne for the good weather.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
And uh so have you always lived in Brisbane?
SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
Uh I was actually born in Townsville.
So yeah, so Queenslander throughand through us.
All your all your New SouthWales listeners just turn off
now, but um so yeah, Townsvilleand then then Brisbane mostly uh
when growing up, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:16):
Yeah, I spent a few, did a few trips to Townsville.
I was sure I was I was seeingsomeone in Townsville for a
while.
SPEAKER_03 (02:22):
Oh, yeah, okay, right.
Yeah, I realize it's not theplace for me.
Yeah, uh beautiful placenonetheless.
Yeah, you would have been thequality flying into Townsville,
weren't you?
Yeah, interesting.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, it's an interesting place,not so warm.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
So did you so you you went to high school in
Townsville?
SPEAKER_03 (02:38):
Is that right?
No, I went to I was like a babybasically there, and then we
moved to Brisbane when I wasprobably five or six.
Okay.
My parents were from uh NorthQueensland, so a little country
town called Serena, which isjust outside of Mackay.
Yep.
Um, so they sort of traveledaround a bit for work and things
and then moved to Brisbane.
Yeah.
And what did your parents do forwork?
SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
And the reason why I ask you is did that have an
influence on you and yourcareer?
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
Oh, I think it definitely did.
I mean, uh, not you know,salubrious background, you might
say.
So um both left school, I think,you know, sort of nine, grade
nine, grade ten.
So dad was uh apprentice motormechanic, mum worked at the
council there, and then um,yeah, just a good lesson in sort
of progress and opportunitythat's in Australia to, you
(03:22):
know, if you work hard andyou've got ability, you can sort
of go well.
So um, yeah, you went, you know,from um apprentice motor
mechanic to mechanics, so thensales, and then eventually ran
dealerships and then eventuallygot to buyer dealerships.
So it's in the um uh new new carum franchise dealership network,
so had few of those.
(03:43):
So um, so definitely that uhphilosophy of you know investing
in your career and um workinghard and you know the
opportunities will come.
Uh but also from you know abusiness point of view, he had a
good business, he looked afterthe team really well.
I think he understood uminherently that you know the the
business is really just acollection of people sort of
(04:05):
coming together, yeah, and theyou know you've got to look
after the team.
Um, you know, they look aftercustomers, and um you know if
you build a philosophy aroundthat you'll have probably a
pretty good business.
SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Yeah, I think that's obviously important.
Team and culture sort of drivesbusiness.
Yeah, exactly.
So at what point in your lifewas it during high school that
you started wanting to studybusiness or do finance?
Or was it sort of a laterthought in life?
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
Yeah, I wasn't sort of the best student.
I think probably um, you know,around the kitchen table,
learning a lot around, you know,business and managing uh people
and I guess uh the stresses ofbusiness, you know, from a young
age.
Um probably good at sort ofmath, you know, despite myself,
you know, was pretty good.
So then yeah, just got aninterest in that probably later
(04:58):
on in in high school and wentdown that sort of accounting
economics sort of route and thenum you know, probably last year
started studying and then got touni and just did economics at
uni.
I did like uh the broader sortof thinking around economics and
sort of the behavioural aspectsand also the cyclical nature of
(05:19):
uh yeah, the thought processesthat goes into that and the
consequences and so on.
And I think that's helped a lotin um you know investment career
as well, because it's uhobviously has a huge influence.
SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
Yeah, I think macro plays more important role than
than micro.
Yeah.
See, everyone has differentdifferent thoughts on that.
So then when you finisheduniversity, what did you do?
SPEAKER_03 (05:42):
Uh I came out in the pretty deep sort of recession of
the 90s, so wasn't a lot around,so scratching around.
Uh got a job with Westpac intheir graduate program.
Um, so had sort of a bit ofexperience through various
parts, but um the boom, boompart of the industry at that
time was credit collections,because obviously we're in
(06:02):
recession, so um I started sostarted you know ringing people
up, basically collecting moneyuh for the bank.
So um that was interesting.
Um, you know, progressed rightthrough to repossessing cars
when you were 21.
So um it was an interestingstuff.
I hope you were going to the gymback then.
No, I certainly wasn't.
So uh yeah, they'd I don't knowif I'd probably leave my actual
(06:22):
name, you know, when I wasrecording a message there.
So um, but yeah, that was a thatwas a good um I guess insight
into perhaps making badfinancial decisions.
Yeah.
Uh worked, you know, in evencredit approvals and back in the
day, you know, like a HarveyNorman, you know, an
interest-free loan, thenconverted to a 33% interest loan
(06:46):
if you didn't pay it off intime, so that sort of stuff.
So yeah, there was some goodfoundational parts of that.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
And how do you from that position, what can you talk
me through?
Let's just keep going throughyour career.
I want to know how do you how dolisteners all want to know how
do you go from being aneconomics student to possessing
cars to to leading, you know,one of one of the largest um,
you know, the massive investmentmanagement firm.
SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Yeah, um, I think um, you know, you go from there
to I think always do furtherstudy, so that was definitely
the case.
I did work in the familybusiness for a few years um
whilst also studying.
So I I went uh back and didgraduate diploma in um applied
finance with FinZier, and then Ialso did uh um a graduate
diploma in financial planningwith FinZier and whilst working
(07:34):
in the business, and that sortof also you know gives you a
foundation in um investmentmarkets as well as uh financial
planning, I guess, back in theday.
Um and then uh decided to leavethe family business that wasn't
sort of my go and um and workedin stockbroking.
So got a job with um uh one ofthe larger firms in in Brisbane
(07:55):
and um and that's sort of wherethe career and sort of equities
went from there.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Yeah, so you're a stockbroker because there's many
stockbroker or were you anequity analyst at a stockbroking
firm?
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
No, stockbroker.
So started on the sort of deskand then um yeah, just gradually
sort of learnt a trade fromthere.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
So what does a what does a stockbroker do back in
the what is it to 90s 2000s,yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:19):
Um look, it's you know, it's sell side basically,
so you know, reverses buy side,so just a very different um
philosophy, you might say, to aninvestment buy side person,
particularly longer term.
So, you know, ultimately thebusiness model is geared around
transactional, you know,turnover.
And so ideas and uh, you know,generating those ideas were
(08:44):
critical.
Um and I think although that wasa good foundation of
understanding businesses andunderstanding investors and
understanding markets and thingslike that, uh, probably didn't
really resonate with theconflicts there in terms of
perhaps long-term investingversus you know the the
short-term need from a businessmodel perspective of generating
turnover.
Yeah.
Um, but you know, you learn froma lot of great people as well.
(09:06):
It's a very well-establishedfirm, been around over a hundred
years.
So, you know, there was a lot ofhistory with that firm and um
and a lot of great knowledgeknowledge there as well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
So for our for our investors, uh listeners that
might not know, a stockbrokerwill get research internally or
research their own companiesthat might be listed in
Australia.
Yeah, then they'd call theirclients or email their clients
and say, hey, I've got anopportunity that we think this
company is going to go well.
Yeah.
Do you want to buy this companyand then we charge you will
charge a fee to make thattransaction.
SPEAKER_03 (09:36):
That's right.
I mean, most the two revenuestreams for most stockbroking
firms are um transactionalturnover, you know, so
brokerage.
Yeah.
And then the other one is um iscorporate finance.
So uh there's a there's arelated, they're they're related
in the sense that um a lot ofthe broke broking side is you
know seen as distribution fortheir corporate.
(09:57):
So they'll do you know,obviously capital raisings and
new IPOs and uh placements,might be equity and debt, um,
and they distribute that throughyou know their their broking
network, so both in retail andinstitutional.
Um, and they have anunderwriting fee as well.
So they're the two main revenuestreams for most broking firms,
still the case today.
(10:17):
Um, and uh yeah, and and it's anecessarily part of the
industry, you know, but um it'sjust whether or not that sits
with your broad up investmentphilosophy, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
And is the can you recall an IPO back in the day
that you're very excited aboutwhen you're working as a broker
and you brought to your clientsthat has been a success story
today?
SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
Oh look, I think one of the most interesting ones was
actually the ASXdemutualization.
So um back in the day, everystate had an exchange.
So they were all, you know, theNew South Wales Exchange and the
Queensland Exchange, and theymerged to become the ASX
Australian Stock Exchange.
They had members um who had aseat at the exchange, and they
(10:58):
would for that seat they wereable to, you know, do trading
and and so on on the exchange.
Um, so and it was a mutual, sothey demutualized, and um, and
so if you had a seat on theexchange, you got issued uh
shares in the float of the ASXper member.
I think back in the day it waslike 167,000 shares if you were
(11:21):
a member of the exchange backthen.
So, you know, what they aretoday, whatever there's$70 a
share, well$60 a share.
So, you know, they did very wellout of that.
But that was you know, that wasan interesting sort of process.
Um, and you know, a good letgood lesson there.
One of the sort of older heads,one of the partners sort of
there who who was a member ofthe exchange.
(11:43):
You know, I was a young persongoing, you know, do we buy
what's the target price?
You know, do it is it somethingwe should buy?
And he's just leant over to meand gone, it's a monopoly, just
buy it.
So I think that resonated fromuh quality of business over sort
of price of the stock.
So that you know, over the longterm a quality sort of business
(12:04):
monopolistic power, procingpower, competitive advantage
they shine through, whereas inthe short term you get a bit
obsessed with the immediateprice of the business itself.
So that was a good lesson.
SPEAKER_02 (12:15):
So have you taken that lesson to the way you
invest today and look forcompanies that have uh you know
monopoly in their market or youknow that creates pricing power?
SPEAKER_03 (12:27):
Yeah, I think Rupert Murdoch said it once once that
um you know monopolies are aterrible thing unless you own
one.
And so I think they're very likeit is a foundational part of
business.
You know, if you if you havepricing power and control of you
know the price of the productyou're selling, regardless of
what it is, um, usually you'vegot a higher return on capital
(12:50):
and better cash flows and morerobust sort of business.
And so those principles of whatmakes a good business, they may
not all be monopolies, but theycould be monopolistic in their
in their in the way that thatindustry is structured or the
way they've built theirbusiness.
So I think that goes to sort ofsecurity of your capital longer
term and more robustness of thatbusiness.
(13:11):
So one would be say, like aMichael Porter, who's Porter's
Five Forces, which actually goesthrough you know what are the
five forces of competitivestructures and it helps you to
sort of identify really goodbusinesses, um, control of their
suppliers or customers and soon, you know, the likelihood of
substitutes coming in, yeah,those sort of things.
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
Yeah, the barriers to entry, etc.
Yeah, and Australia, we're notwe're not big for pushing
competition.
SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
No, no.
SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
We we love to have individual or dual or four
banks, for example, that's it,you know, can control market
share.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Yeah, it's an interesting um global dynamic in
Australia that um and we're alarge cap, so we're ASX 100, and
one of the reasons we sort ofsay it's good in Australia is
you end up with these sort ofconcentrated market positions.
No one really knows why.
One of the reasons is thatperhaps um, you know, we have a
we have uh you know largegeographic sort of area, but um,
(14:09):
you know, reasonably smallpopulation versus the US, say
where you've got reasonablesized cities, um, and there's a
lot of them, that five to tenmillion.
And so they can have areasonable business start in one
of those cities and then growfrom there.
But uh perhaps with us, thatconstraint of geography doesn't
allow that to happen so much orso easily.
That's one of the reasons thatare out there.
(14:29):
But you name an industry, you'reprobably looking at a fairly,
like you've already said, youknow, duopoly cartel, monopoly
type structure, often in largecaps.
So um you're already sort ofpart ahead of the game.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Yeah, well, I guess the for them to get to ASX 100,
they've probably had somestraight hold over the
Australian market.
SPEAKER_03 (14:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
But it's just a uniqueAustralian thing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
So then from stockbroking, uh, how long were
you in that role for?
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
Uh so really started in that and then switched to um
more the wealth side probably in2008, and that's when we started
the business.
And uh from there was more westarted as more of a wealth
management business, so moretraditional planning, which is
the planning background that Ihad as well.
And then from there we went toreally um, we were a very early
(15:20):
adopter of managed accounts,yeah.
Uh, IMA, so individually managedaccounts, and also then SMA, so
separately managed accounts.
SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
So, what's the difference between the two for
our audience?
SPEAKER_03 (15:32):
The IMAs, if you looked at the three main
structures, you've got a unittrust, like managed fund, you've
got a SMA, which is essentiallya model portfolio, um, but it
de-unitizes the investment.
So you can have directportfolio, but there's one
model.
Yeah.
An IMA will still have typicallya model portfolio, but they're
(15:53):
individual customizableportfolios.
Whereas under an SMA, everyonegets the same model.
You know, they all get the sameportfolio, even though it's
direct ownership, which hasdistinct structural advantages
over unitized investment, um,cash flow management, tax
management, and so on.
But it's sort of like the nextlevel up in terms of tax
optimization and customisationis an IMA.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
And giving you we're one of the first businesses to
launch managed accounts, um, howhow did you why did you what
made you do that?
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
I think um, yeah, originally if we look back at
hub, net wealth, those platformsdevelopment, um, it was about
taking de-unitizing investmentsand how do we do that scalably?
You know, how do we manage adirect portfolio professionally?
Um, and you know, not have allyour money in a unit trust, have
it directly owned for all thetax advantages.
And they were sort of veryobsessed with that.
(16:48):
And uh we had a similar view.
We think that ultimatelyprovided um you know great
benefits to investors.
And uh, and so you know, we'd goalong, I'd go along to the
independent, you know, societyof managed account providers,
and they'd all be there and we'dbe there.
And um, yeah, back in the day itwas a bit of a cottage industry,
to be honest.
And um, we just thoughtultimately it goes well for
(17:10):
advisors if you're a goodadvisor and you you would be
conscious of tax and after-taxreturn management, structural
structural sort of discussionsuh for clients, you know, you're
trying to maximize after-taxreturns, minimize fees, all
those things.
Um, then that if you if you arelike that, then that has a
distinct structural advantage.
(17:31):
So that's why.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
And obviously operational efficiency, I would
imagine, because if you, youknow, when you're a stockbroker,
you'd have to place, you know,20 of your clients, you call
your clients, they want to, theyall want to buy the ASX, then
you'll have to do 20 calls, 20trades.
SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
Yeah, and the same with uh with financial planning
as well.
You know, if you if you reallysaw the explosion of uh manager
accounts that occurred post-RuleCommission, and the reason for
that is just the complianceburdens on a financial advisors.
So whether it be a stock or anindividual fund, if they had to
switch, there would be a arecord of advice required.
That's administration, perhaps aphone call, and so on.
(18:08):
Um, you know, the financialadvisor uh typically will run
out of steam at maybe you know,20 clients if they're ringing
each one.
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
So what you also find is that it led to um you
know inequ inequity.
You know, often it was thebiggest clients that get the
phone call, and the smallestclients got the last were last
to hear about anything, or thechange never happened because it
was just slow, um, you know,manual sort of processes for
financial planners.
And so there's an equity thingthere.
(18:39):
I think in all clients aregetting treated the same and get
the best execution um in a youknow sort of timely manner.
And uh, I think also what yousee in the financial planning
industry is that because of theadministrative burden, the
changes to the portfolio usuallyoccurred at the annual review.
(18:59):
So the best time of the year forFabian's portfolio to be
adjusted just happened to be theday that you did your annual
review with your financialadvisor, and nothing else
happened throughout the year.
That didn't really fly in themodern world, and I think um
modern investors expect morethan that um from their advisor.
They expected them to be alittle bit more proactive than
(19:20):
that, and I think that's anenabler as well.
So that's we sort of saw thatcoming and saw the advantages to
investors, advantages toadvisors, and we were lucky to
sort of come in at the back ofthat sort of um tailwind for the
industry.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
So you too.
When you started the business,how many partners were there?
And do they all come from theprevious stockbroking firm that
you were working at?
SPEAKER_03 (19:38):
Oh, it's a bit of a mix now because the two the two
main businesses we've got stillgot the wealth business, so we
still understand advisors and uhthe pressures for advisors.
I think there's symbioticrelationship there, there's a
lot of learnings, and thenthere's obviously the asset
management team as well, arealso equity holders.
So there's a bit of a mix ofboth.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
So can you maybe share a little bit of
information about the businessand the name of it, how big you
are, and um how many employeesand Elston is the is a business.
SPEAKER_03 (20:07):
So Elston Private Wealth, we look after about two
and a half billion um in thatbusiness, and that's uh private
individuals, typicallyself-funded is our market, maybe
not ultra high net worth, but umyou know average portfolio size
is around two million, and mostof that is IMA customizable
portfolios from a tax point ofview.
And then um, and then assetmanagement, so Elston Asset
(20:29):
Management, and we arespecialist managed account
providers, uh, mostlymulti-asset class.
Uh, we do also have Australianequities, both large cap, which
is the team that I'm in.
Um there's six in that team.
And then we also have emergingleaders, Aussie equities as
well, which is X100.
So um, yeah, so we cover thesort of range as a multi-asset
(20:52):
class team that do all the uh uhall the selections and due
diligence on managers, bothpassive and active managers
across the main asset classesoutside of equities, and then we
have you know equities team thatthat do that directly.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
Yeah, and what's your role within the fern?
SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
So I'm managing director of the overall group.
Uh so my role is more sstrategic.
Uh so where are we going?
We're doing that strategic cycleat the moment.
So that's a three-year cycle.
So I would get involved in that,um, trying to formulate you know
where we're going um in thebroad context, keeping strategy
pretty simple, um, and then justreally focusing on execution and
(21:30):
making sure the executive teamare focused on that execution,
culture, stakeholder thinking,that type of uh that sort of
thinking goes into uh strategyas well for our business.
So that's my role.
Um, but it's not a sort offull-time gig.
My day day job is in AussieEquities large cap team.
So there's four portfoliomanagers on one of one of the
(21:53):
four, and then we have a team ofanalysts as well uh that we work
with.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
So can you explain?
You've talked about monopolisticcharacters of uh characteristics
of a of a of a company.
That's obviously oneconsideration when you when you
look to pick stocks.
Can you share your investmentphilosophy or process with our
audience?
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
Look, I think one of the advantages of Elson is that
uh we do have four portfoliomanagers, we all get a vote and
we also have all differentviews.
And so I think that dilutes thepotential risks of having
biases.
You know, everyone's gotbehavioural biases and styles,
things like that.
So I think that's a good thing.
It rounds that out.
Uh for me personally, I'd bemore of a style agnostic person.
(22:37):
So I would look at businessesum, if you might say, on a
relative basis.
So to way to explain that, Iguess, is that every business
has a value.
It's just determining um thegrowth of that business and uh
the quality of that business towork out what that value should
be.
Um if you look at say multiples,I think people don't understand
(23:00):
multiples well.
Say if I pay 10 times PE for abusiness versus say 15 times PE
for the business, it's hard tosort of conceptually get that.
And why would you do that?
I think the best way to explainit is to inverse that in terms
of what is your return.
And people can relate to returnsa lot better.
(23:22):
So if you if you pay 10 timesearnings for a business, your
return is 10%.
You're gonna get 10% return backin terms of the profits that
you've purchased.
So it's easier to understandthat.
Now, if you pay 30 timesearnings for something, you get
three percent return on yourcapital.
So why would you do that?
Yeah why would you why would youwillingly get a lower return?
(23:46):
And so under understanding thatthere is a linkage between the
valuation and the growth and thequality of that business.
So you might pay 30 timesjustifiably if that say 3%
return is doubling every threeyears, yeah, versus the 10%
return might be static and notgrowth.
So you can only relate or valuesof businesses only are relatable
(24:12):
or relative to something else.
Yeah.
So growth, quality of thosebusinesses, and so on.
So that's that's sort of my viewis that um, you know, you can
have variety rather than beingsort of style, these are growth
type businesses, these are valuetype businesses.
No, it doesn't really matter.
They all have their ownvaluation.
What you need to look at is therelative context is what's the
(24:34):
growth of that business like?
Is that justified in terms ofits valuation?
Yeah, it's a different level ofthinking about it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
Yeah, because it's one thing, past growth is no
guarantee of future growth.
SPEAKER_03 (24:45):
Yeah.
As well.
And I think you know, that's whyum a high quality business
should should get a highermultiple because it is more
predictable.
Yeah.
You know, so um you don't knowwhat earnings are gonna be for
any business.
So you know, if you it's a bigguess, really.
Yeah.
You know, it's where glorifiedvalues at the end of the day, we
(25:06):
don't really know what's gonnahappen with markets.
You certainly don't know what'sgonna happen with businesses.
But as you get into thosestructures of businesses,
they're more predictable,therefore you have more
certainty, therefore, you canpay more for that business.
SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
Yeah.
So is there an example of a acompany that you have invested
in, I don't know, say the lastfive or ten years that's done
exceptionally well?
Yeah.
And can you maybe share a littlebit of insight into your your
thesis behind that investment?
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
Yeah, I think something like Macquarie Bank,
um, we've owned for you know 13,14 years in the in the
portfolio.
Um, probably bought it was$25 orsomething, it's$230 a share.
But um really why, I guess, isthat um it's the culture of that
business, it's the um sort offreedom within boundaries, uh,
(25:56):
risk framework, theentrepreneurial nature of that
business, and its ability toadapt over time and drive more
quality, um, then it'sgeographic expansion.
Yeah, you know, so um and theytend to go in niche.
So they might expand into Braziland they'll have a small team
that has a particular niche,might be in, I don't know,
derivatives or something, andthen they build relationships
(26:18):
from there, and that's how theyexpand the business
geographically.
So um, you know, if we look atit long term, their opportunity
set is enormous.
So if you're versus say adomestic Aussie bank selling
residential mortgages, um youknow, you're a pretty limited
sort of way they go.
Yeah, so um those I think that'sa uh a great business and great
(26:41):
example of uh why cultureenvironment is really critical
and strategy is really critical,longer term thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Um do you get to meet the management of these
businesses to get a feel for theculture?
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Like one of the one of the things that we try to
work through is that you knowevery every CEO tells you how
great their business is.
So you have to be a a bit of acynic.
Yeah.
And so you need to really besure.
And so one of the ways of beingsure is trying to test them out
on what they say they're gonnado versus what they actually
(27:16):
actually done.
So execution is way moreimportant than strategy.
So you can have a greatstrategy, they can talk about
their 10-page you know,PowerPoint deck of what they're
going to do, but if they don'texecute on it or they haven't
executed in the past, they'vegot no sort of management sort
of credibility.
So execution always trumps uhthe strategy, and so their
(27:38):
ability to execute over time isway more important.
So actually, historic versusforward-looking um you know,
execution.
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
It's interesting.
I when I did my MBA, I heard aum an uh interesting line that
said uh culture each strategyfor breakfast.
I don't know if you've heardthat before.
Yeah, yeah.
So you've just one thing havinga strategy, it's the other thing
you know, having the people tobe able to execute it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
Yeah, you can have and complex strategies over
simple strategies.
So, like a great example, Ithink, that's we've just added
Seek in the portfolio, it ismonopolistic in in Australia as
well, but um Seek has threestrategies.
You know, they want to takemarket share, so want to
increase their market share inplacements, um, they want to um
(28:21):
increase prices over time, andthey want to have operating
leverage, so discipline aroundtheir costs.
So they've got three strategies.
That's it.
The the the hard bit is execuexecuting on that strategy.
Well, so you want to increaseyour market share, but how do
you actually increase yourmarket share?
You know, that's not easy to do.
So then it's the the detail ofhow they actually go about
(28:44):
execution of that.
But simplicity is also critical.
If you've got a 10-pointstrategy plan and you know they
execute two out of the 10pointless, you better off have
three and execute on all three.
Yeah.
So, you know, a good example ofum simplicity of a strategy
execution.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Um it's also easy to have you, you know, followers on
board if they understand andknow the strategy and it's not
too complicated.
SPEAKER_03 (29:08):
Correct.
And if it changes every week, anew new strategy every week,
what's the you know, the teamgets really confused with that?
So, you know, you've got to sortof put the flag on the hill and
and go for it.
It gives people certainty andthey understand where they're
going.
And I think that that'simportant as well.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yeah.
And what about uh an investmentyou've made that haven't hasn't
gone right?
And what did you learn fromthat?
SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Oh, look, as fund managers, you get sort of there
is no ego because it just itgets beaten out of you very
quickly.
Um, you know, it is a race thathas no finish.
So um, you know, there's justjust name it.
You know, I could thousands ofthings I beat myself up about.
Yeah.
Now, it can be something you'vebought that's gone down, but it
(29:48):
equally can be something you'vesold that continues to go up.
And that's that's a painfulexperience as well.
So, you know, it's a big thing.
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
I sold a stock about six months ago.
Oh yeah.
And then um Rare earth is takeit off and I'll just 75% on the
table.
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
Yeah, it goes nowhere for 10 years and then
suddenly has three months bang.
But um so look, I I just thinkit's a constant learning, and
that's why it's such a greattrade to be in and profession to
be in.
And um, you know, I think it'syour humility comes along with
that because you just have somany errors along the way and
you beat yourself up so much.
I think Kerry Packer said itreally well.
(30:27):
If you could um be right 60% ofthe time, you'd end up ruling
the world.
You know, he would end up rulingthe world because you know the
the probabilities and thepercentages are just stacked a
little bit in your favour.
But it means you're gonna be 40%wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:42):
Now, in investment markets, you it's probably 55,
45 at best.
Yeah.
You know, so you gotta get usedto being wrong in in the
industry and um and you know,overcome that and learn from
that and then try and just getbetter over time.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
The thing is, if you invest a dollar in a business,
you can only lose one dollar,but that dollar could turn into
ten dollars if the business goestenfold.
SPEAKER_03 (31:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
So your upside's uncapped and your downsides
capped at your capital.
SPEAKER_03 (31:07):
That's right.
Yeah, and Macquarie's a goodexample,$25.
Anyway, along that journey,GFCs, there's been a long
journey along there.
COVID, um, there's always abroker report sell side
experience.
You know, there's a there's abroker report every day about
Macquarie, whether target price,sell it, buy it, whatever, you
know, you've got to get thetransaction going.
Um you almost need to ignorethat and just just flow through
(31:31):
with the lot longer-term qualityof that business.
So, you know, and if you youcould have sold it many times
over in that journey, you know,so um and and paid the price for
that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
Yep.
And the business that you're apart of, Alison, how would
someone invest in your in in thefunds?
So you have the AustralianEquity Large Cap Fund,
Australian Equity Um X100 oremergent companies, yeah.
And then you have a managed uhaccount option.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
So how would someone access that?
Look, most of our clients onasset management, we look after
about six billion there.
Most of our clients are actuallyfinancial advisors, which is why
we need to understand the adviceindustry really well, because a
managed account is a practicemanagement solution as much as
much as it is an investmentsolution.
So to access us, typically it'sthrough a financial advisor.
(32:22):
Now we're on, I think, most ofthe major platforms, you know,
eight or nine of the majorplatforms.
And uh and managed accounts areuh are typically multi-asset
class.
So going from conservativelyconstructed to right up to sort
of high growth, maybe pureAustralian equities.
Uh, and so you know, that'susually how you access, not to
(32:42):
say that you can't access usdirectly, you can access us
access us directly through theplatforms as well.
SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
You don't need a financial advisor, but that's
where you can set up like a netwealth account and say I want to
invest in the Alston Aussieequity fund.
SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
Yep, yeah.
Um, and you know, we're justextending that as well.
So for example, we've justlaunched income SMA.
So we're going from we'relooking more at the issues for
advisors where they've gotdifferent demographics to deal
with, you know, and um agingpopulation.
Yeah, so um income security, ummoving a lot of people, baby
(33:17):
boomers typically are moving nowinto that drawdown phase.
So cash flow matching, uh, sowe've built a specific model
variant for that uh that's trueto label in terms of income
generation, um, more certaintyof income, predictability of
income, both in terms of theequities component but the
non-Australian equitiescomponent as well.
And we're currently incubatingmore of a high growth version as
(33:40):
well, so high growth SMA.
So an advisor can, you know,have got a younger demographic
who's looking to accumulate youknow assets, they'll be say ASX
100, but the higher growthbusinesses, yeah.
Um, the combination of thatportfolio with the emerging
leaders as well, so they're sortof put together, and then the
(34:00):
exposures outside of Aussieequities are also growth type
managers as well.
So it's they're all true tolabel in terms of their
components and allows an advisorto bring their client through
that journey or target specificdemographics of client.
Um, and it can also be for tax.
So you could have a uh say uhthe growth will typically have
lower turnover, lowerrealizations.
(34:22):
So someone in a higher taxentity um would go into that, uh
they'll pay less tax on acapital gains tax point of view.
Um, equally the income versionmight have more turnover, um, so
more realizations, obviously,more income, more franking
credits, and so on.
Um, so someone who's got say acapital loss that they want to
absorb, you know, over timethrough realizing capital gains,
(34:43):
that would be so you can alsooverlay tax optimization at the
advisor level as well.
SPEAKER_02 (34:49):
So and also a lot of people that will need income are
probably you know investingthrough their super fund and in
pension phase.
SPEAKER_03 (34:55):
So franking credits, rebates tax-free at this point.
SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
Who knows what will change in the future.
That's right.
As governments uh put their handon the big pool.
SPEAKER_03 (35:03):
Yeah, yeah.
I was a shame I just sawrecently that Reese, um you
know, Reese Plumbing just did auh a buyback of their shares.
And uh they you know it's prettytightly held by the Wilson
family, so it's is not a lot ofshares around.
So they actually did it offmarket, so people just you know
submit their shares that theywant bought back and the company
buys them back.
(35:24):
But um prior to 2022, you coulddo that as a structured buyback
where the listed company couldbuy it back with say a smaller
capital component.
So in this case it was$13, theymight give you five dollars of
capital, and the rest would be afully frank dividend, yeah.
With a with the attachedfranking credits, it was a way
of distributing franking creditsout to uh to the owners, to the
(35:48):
to the shareholders.
Um, that's been stopped from2022.
I think it's a real shame.
It's still available for privatecompanies, but it's not
available for for listedcompanies.
And I think you know, inAustralia, those franking
credits are owned by theshareholders, that it's their
asset.
Yeah.
And you know, limiting theability to distribute them is I
(36:08):
think a real shame and um andand something I think that
should be changed.
I mean you think in a privatecompany that's how you do it.
You could buy back stock all daylong and do that and distribute
those out.
But yeah, there are there are atax-free, you know, risk-free
advantage for Aussie investors,and you know, the company's paid
the tax on their behalf and theydeserve to be able to receive
(36:30):
those.
So they made some particularcomments around that as well,
which was good.
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
And uh might just towards the end, and I know you
have to fly out.
So where do you see the themarket in the next sort of three
to six months?
Because it seems likeeverything's quite expensive
around at the moment.
Most asset assets are at atrecord highs.
SPEAKER_03 (36:49):
Yeah.
Look, um anybody tells you whatthe they think the market's they
know what the market's gonna dois you know, lying, basically.
So, you know, we don't knowwhat's going to happen with
markets.
I don't anyone can.
So um, but what we do know isthat there's certain things we
don't want to participate atthis stage, and so it's easy in
the Australia's Aussie equitiescontext to sort of avoid certain
(37:11):
areas.
And I think outside of thosecertain areas, there's a lot of
actually opportunity.
Um, and it's related to aparticular market dynamic at the
moment, which is momentum-baseduh trading.
So momentum is not fundamental.
It doesn't matter about what Iwas saying, you know, in terms
of multiples and growth and youknow, quality of business, it
doesn't matter.
(37:32):
That that's out the door.
It's very much charts.
Yep.
If the share price is going up,then you buy, and if it's going
down, you sell.
If it's on, if it's you know, 10times earnings, it can go to two
times earnings, if it's on 50times earnings and go to 100
times earnings, doesn't reallymatter.
So, um, so there's thosemomentum um driven uh uh
(37:52):
opportunities because if you area fundamentalist with a longer
term fundamentalist with along-term view, you presented
those opportunities all thetime.
You gifted these opportunities,um, and so we see a lot of these
sort of gifts at the moment.
Um, and when that changes, andthere's a change from being
purely momentum-based, who knowswhen that will be, but then
(38:14):
you'll you'll sort of reap therewards of that.
So we see a lot of opportunityout in some of those sort of
names.
SPEAKER_02 (38:20):
Yeah, awesome.
Thank you very much for comingin.
It's been a pleasure.
Yeah, good to know you over thelast few years.
And well, you're a client ofRever Recruitment, so thank you.
I've heard you present many atimes, and I'm sure our audience
will get a lot of insight fromour discussion today.
SPEAKER_03 (38:35):
Thanks a lot, I mean, I really appreciate the
invitation.
Cheers.
SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
Thanks for listening this week.
Stay tuned for our next episodeand keep up to date with us by
following the Finance Friendspodcast on Instagram and TikTok.
Plus, connect with us and ourguests over on our LinkedIn
page, all linked in the shownotes.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Disclaimer This podcast exists for informational
and entertainment purposes only.
The personal opinions of thespeaker and guests do not
represent the view of any otherparty.
If this recording containsreference to financial products,
that reference does notconstitute advice nor
recommendations and may not berelied upon.
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