June 26, 2025 • 37 mins
He needs absolutely no introduction...
A two-time Brownlow Medallist, premiership captain, and one of the greatest to ever play the game, AFL legend, Chris Judd, kicks off our exclusive third season: From the Field to Finance.
Judd's transition from AFL superstar to successful portfolio manager and Founder of the Cerutty Macro Fund, reveals striking parallels between elite sport and financial markets. He shares his strategic thinking and competitive drive to investment management that made him a football legend.
In this episode, Judd shares what it was like stepping away from the game, the identity shift that followed, and how he carved out a new path in the world of finance. From leadership on the field to decision-making under pressure, he offers rare insight into what it takes to succeed in both arenas.
Whether you’re a sports fan, finance enthusiast, or just curious about what reinvention and success really looks like — this one’s not to be missed.
Visit the Cerutty Macro Fund website today: https://ceruttymacrofund.com.au/
Enjoyed the episode? Follow Finance Friends Podcast on Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok for daily updates and more inspiring conversations. Got questions or ideas for future episodes? Send us a DM @financefriendspodcast!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Finance Friends podcast.
And today we have the wonderfulChris Judd, a two-time Brandylo
medalist, premiership captain,all-australian, multiple times
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Thanks, Fabian.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Looking forward to having achat.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Well, thank you for coming on.
So today I want to talk aboutyour career.
That not only as a footballer,as most people know, but also as
a investment manager, becausethat's what you do today.
So what's the name of yourcompany?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So I'm the founder of the Serity Macro Fund.
So we've been in investmentmarkets in different forms since
retiring from footy about 10years ago and then founded that
about a bit over a year and ahalf ago now.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Maybe just give us a quick overview.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, so we're macro-themed investors, so we
only invest in equities andwe're long only.
And whilst most funds reallyhave a bottom-up focus, we start
with top-down dynamics inmarkets and look for secular
themes that we like and pay alot of attention to liquidity
metrics and then go throughbottom-up analysis then.
(01:09):
So it's how I investedprivately before the fund and I
guess you know from a macro sideof things, that's really around
stories and is almost a way ofviewing the world and explaining
what's going on in the world.
So I've always been fascinatedby macroeconomics and that's
really the part of the marketthat excites me the most.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And at what age did you become interested in
financial markets?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I bought my first shares when I was 16.
I got some money for the AISfor an academy that I was a part
of and looked at the old manand said what's the deal with
that?
And he said I don't know.
And so we walked down to thenews agency and got a share
magazine and we bought sharesand it was a toss-up between AWA
(01:56):
, which was a small OEMmanufacturer, or Woolworths
actually, and we went with AWA,which fortuitously got bought
out.
It wasn't a great company andwe got out of jail, I suspect,
on that one, but certainlyWoolworths would have been a
good buy and hold from what'sthat 26 years ago?
Yeah, but that was it.
I didn't grow up in a financialfamily at all.
(02:17):
My parents, whilst Clever, hadzero interest in markets or
finance.
My grandfather, my dad's dad,liked his stocks.
So I'm not sure if the passionskipped a generation or what
happened.
But I think, being naturallycompetitive by nature, there's
an attraction particularly tolisted equities where there's a
(02:39):
real scoreboard every day, andI'm not the sort of investor
that says the scoreboard's wrong.
That's the scoreboard, and thenyou work out if you won or not
based on what you hold, andthere's something about that
accountability that I reallyenjoy.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And is that stemmed as a child?
You talk about always beingcompetitive, having that
competitive nature.
Was that when you were?
Do you have any siblings?
Did you have a competitivenature or just playing footy
growing up?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You know I think that's a personality type and
you know I score incredibly lowon agreeability.
So I'm you know, naturally I'malways have the urge to take the
other side of someone's view,which can be an annoying trait
when you live with someone.
(03:31):
But as an investor, I thinkthat's a useful characteristic,
because if you believedeverything a CEO told you when
you meet with them, you'd beinvesting in every single
company that you ever met with.
So I think that high level ofdisagreeability and
competitiveness, whilst annoyingin some instances in life, is
useful for both professionalsport and investing, because any
(03:54):
time you invest, you'reessentially saying the market's
wrong.
You know how arrogant is that.
You're saying that the pricethat the market has given this
asset is incorrect and I'm rightbecause of X, y, z.
So it's.
You know I think it's a reallytough career path for people
that are highly agreeable,because how do you make that
(04:16):
call each day?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, and it's interesting because a lot of
portfolio managers are quiteunique and maybe aren't easily,
like you said, agreeable, butthey look beyond maybe a
friendship or a sales pitch tounderstand the company more
deeply and invest accordingly.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, I mean there's plenty of careers in finance
that work if you're agreeable.
You know wealth management,asset allocation things like
that, but picking individualstock names yeah, we know wealth
management, asset allocation,things like that.
But picking individual stocknames, yeah, I think it's suited
to those personality traitsbecause, like I said, you're
making the decision each daythat the market's wrong and the
price they're allocating tothose things, yep.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
And what skills did you learn as a?
If you take a step back, so youwere drafted to West Coast as
an 18-year-old, so were yourbiggest learnings early on in
your career as a footballer?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
then we can help to understand how that's
transitioned to being asuccessful portfolio manager
yeah, look, I think, um, in twoof the lessons learned and
there's sort of thousands, uh,that probably resonate with
investing One that springs tomind is you know to take notice,
(05:30):
or the importance of when afootball club or a company's
culture is aligned with theircompetitive advantage.
So often it's easy to think inlife that culture's got to look
a certain way.
So an example in the real worldwould be if you met an
accounting firm and theircompetitive advantage, they said
(05:51):
, was trust and reliability andcompliance, and everyone is
walking around with purple hairand drinking booze at lunchtime
and there's bring your dog towork day and loud music blaring
the office.
That would be a misalignment ofculture and competitive
advantage.
That exact same culture wasalive at an advertising agency
(06:12):
whose competitive advantage wascoming up with ideas that no one
else has thought of andthinking outside the box.
There may be good alignmentthere and that's something I
look for in companies today andthat's something that resonates
with my football career.
You know, particularly from theWest Coast days, where the
competitive advantage of thatteam and why that team was able
to disrupt if you like, usingfinance vernacular the Brisbane
(06:35):
Lions teams that were muchheavier and stronger than
everyone else was just throughimmense running power, and it
was probably the first team toreally value both running and
being light, which has nowbecome a real focus of midfield
groups across the competition.
Since, and culturally, it wasjust an expectation that when
you come to pre-season on dayone, you'd be running near
(06:57):
personal best times on beeptests and various other running
tests that were implemented, andthere was never a point where
you know a management coach or apsychologist said we've got to
have our culture aligned withour competitive advantage.
It just naturally evolved butit became a very powerful thing,
and so that's something I thinkyou can take from both sport
(07:18):
and investing.
And the other thing I think isjust the rewards.
The big rewards in both sportand investing go to people
prepared to do somethingdifferent.
They're also the major losses,unfortunately, and you weigh up
the cost benefits of doing that.
In sport, because it's sobinary.
(07:39):
I think it makes more sense totake more risk and do something
different, because followingbest practice has a habit of
getting you sort of top four atbest, but not the whole way to
victory.
Business is a little bitdifferent.
If I run a listed supermarketbusiness, there can be two,
(07:59):
three successful supermarkets.
So following best practice maymake more sense.
So you need to be clear on whatgame you're playing, but
certainly the major rewards,whether it's in sport or
investing, go to those that dosomething different first.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, and I guess it depends on what part of the
business cycle you're at as well.
You know, if you are a newcomer, you want to disrupt, but if
you're maybe a mature businesslike a Coles or Woolworths,
you've got to do properly.
Maybe you don't need to do toomuch disrupting.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, that's right, but it still means the major
awards will go to those doingsomething different.
It doesn't mean it's right foreveryone, but, yeah, you're not
seeing a lot of 10, 20xcompanies that are just
following the path of someoneelse.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
At what age were you when you realised that you are
ready for that transition out ofprofessional sport into
financial services?
Is there a certain point inyour life that you thought, wow,
this is probably getting closeto that time.
Or were you preparing for thatthroughout your career?
I realised when I snapped myACL I was ready for a transition
(09:03):
out of AFL, your career I?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
realised when I snapped my ACL, I was ready for
a transition out of AFL.
And then look, my initialthoughts was I'd become a either
buy a small operating companyor or start a company, you know,
a traditional sort of operatingbusiness, a small business,
largely because theentrepreneurs I admired the most
at that stage of my life.
(09:25):
That's what they did and andthat should have been a huge
mistake, which I was reallyfortunate I didn't end up doing.
I um, and it would have been ahuge mistake because I love.
I love ideas and exploringideas at depth.
I don't love managing largeamounts of people and dealing
with a lot of HR issues, sofunds management is a great
business to found for someonelike that, because you do spend
(09:48):
most of your days thinking aboutideas.
You know my staff consists ofone analyst and a lady in
administration, but the lion'sshare of my time is spent
exploring concepts, which isboth what I'm good at and what I
really enjoy.
So, yeah, that's how it pannedout.
I was lucky enough to get a jobas an analyst post that injury
(10:09):
at a venture capital fund, whichwas a really good experience,
and I learnt a lot, and that wasmy first foray into sort of the
corporate world.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So were you still playing professional sport at
that point?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, that was about a couple of months post-career.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Okay, and did you do any study while you were at
university?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I didn't complete anything.
I did a media andcommunications course that I
didn't complete, and I startedan MBA and didn't complete that
either.
So I'd done a little bit ofstudy, but I had been investing
privately at a reasonablysophisticated level for well
since my sort of mid-20s.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Can you share an example of an investment you did
as a private investor?
Because I'd imagine as aprofessional sports person
that's in the public eye, you'dprobably get a lot of people
trying to pitch investment ideasto you.
How do you navigate that?
Do you have an advisor?
Do you navigate it on your own?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah.
So I did it all myself because,I mean, I executed through
brokers but I sort of didn'thave a wealth manager or someone
holding my hand, because Iwanted to be I didn't want to be
dependent on other peoplepost-football and wanted to
develop those skills myself,which I'm really glad I did at
the time.
That meant I made a heap ofcrappy investments in my early
(11:28):
20s and I was lucky enough tomeet the founder of Euros in my
sort of mid-20s.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Which are a broking firm out of WA, which are a
broking firm out of WA.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So I was in Melbourne at the time, but he really took
me under his wing and reallytaught me how to invest in small
and micro cap companies, andwhat that means is really
learning how to sell.
You know it's really easy to tobuy listed equities.
(11:55):
It's really challenging to sell, so to start to develop a bit
of framework around that wasuseful.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
So just when you talk about sell, what do you mean by
that?
Can you be deeper?
So sell equities as in ifyou're the company, no, no.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So like when I make a decision to buy $100 worth of a
stock that's easy.
What's hard is when to sellthat stock, because it might've
ripped three times and you'reconvinced it's going to be the
next Fortescue, or it might'vebe down 30% and the competitive
part of you wants to get tobreak even before you sell.
I mean that's a wholepsychological event that you
(12:33):
need to align with the type ofinvestor you are and you want to
be and what's actuallyhappening within that company.
So that's the real skill set inequities and particularly in
small cap equities.
You know, if I look at propertyinvesting, you know,
particularly pre all thedifferent taxes the government
particularly Victoria slapped on.
(12:54):
But for me property the skillis in the buying.
If you buy property really well, there's really been no reason
to sell it.
You know you can leverageagainst it if it goes berserk
and use that cash somewhere else.
Traditionally, if you're boughta good property small and
micro-cap equities aren't likethat If you, you know, even if
(13:17):
you buy well, the skill is inthe selling.
So that's really what I learnedin my 20s and I guess my style
of investing then was almostakin to a VC investor's
mentality where I think thissmaller microcap company can do
X, y, z and then get re-ratedand then that might be in a
liquidity event when I wouldsell Yep, as opposed to a VC
(13:41):
company where they will say thisSeries A opportunity, they can
do X, y, z, re-rate, and thenwe'll raise a new Series B round
.
So it was that sort of mindset,but always enlisted equities
and always place a huge premiumon liquidity.
Yep listed equities and alwaysplace a huge premium on
liquidity.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, because obviously VC they'll invest
early days, not more seedinvestments, more concepts, so
that the business is generallyrunning and then you know, look
to whether you say exit throughanother raise or through an IPO
or a share trade sale.
So talk me through your timebeing an analyst within a
(14:21):
venture capital firm.
What did your job involve?
What was the day-to-day?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So I was the first point of call for all the
companies that were wantingcapital from that VC fund.
So I was the initial screeningpoint, if you like.
So I saw every company thatcame in the door and then would
do, I guess, some reasonablybasic analysis and then
recommend to the portfoliomanager if he should commit time
(14:47):
to more extensive DD.
So it was a good grounding infinance and a good ability to
see lots of different businesses, but also a good ability to
learn.
I don't like VC investing, andparticularly in Australia where
the addressable markets arequite small.
It was almost a premium onbeing a liquid, which I always
(15:11):
struggled to get my head around.
I was looking at plenty oflisted companies at the same
time that were trading much morecheaply, yet you could get in
and out of them, you know,whenever you wanted it at some
level, depending on buyinginterest.
So it just didn't.
It sort of didn't work for thetype of investing that sort of
(15:35):
and that's the other thing withinvesting is you can make it
however you want.
Whatever your personality traitis, there's a style of investing
that suits you.
You know people sort of assumeif you're an investor you have
to be X, y Z.
But you know, if you're a mathgenius, you might be building
algorithms.
(15:55):
If you're a macro guy, youmight like stories.
If you're a you know value guy,you might be building
algorithms.
If you're a macro guy, youmight like stories.
If you're a value guy, youmight be obsessed with bottom-up
analysis.
If you're a you went to Scotchyou might like bonds, I don't
know.
Whatever your background is,there's a type of investing
that's for you and that's one ofthe.
That's sort of somesimilarities to AFL as well.
(16:17):
There's generally a spot foryou for most body shapes at some
level in AFL.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So what are your biggest learnings from AFL that
you've been able to move intobeing a successful portfolio
manager?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Look, I think being attracted to discomfort is one.
So you know, in professionalsport it's fairly easy to work
out what people don't want to dobecause it's uncomfortable, and
then when those things thatpeople don't want to do are
efficacious for performance,that's where you should zero in.
(16:53):
So, for example, you knowpeople lying on a massage table
is useful for performance.
It can loosen up the lower back, it can get rid of a tight
hammy, but it's pretty relaxingto do so.
There's no competitive edge indoing it.
You know, when you compare thatto acupuncture needles, which
(17:16):
might be more uncomfortable buteven better outcome physically,
you know it's to always be onthe lookout for things which
people don't want to do, thatcan help performance.
I mean, social media is anotherone.
Like if you had to do a quizfor which professional athletes
are on social media, it would be99% yeah.
(17:37):
Yet those same athletes wear atorrent of abuse from you know
all sorts of nuffies online whothey've never met, and I think
there's very few.
there'd be a couple of differentpersonality types where it
might help their performance,but very few Yet everyone's on
it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Because it gives you a short-term dopamine hit and it
provides comfort and, you know,if you're single, it might be a
good way to meet people.
X, y, z, so they're the sortsof things that often
high-performing athletes areattracted to, things that are
uncomfortable, that others don'twant to do.
That help performance and it'sa long-winded way of getting to.
How does that apply toinvestment markets?
(18:15):
You know so as a portfolio, youknow that investors hate
volatility, so there's a strongdesire for portfolio managers to
try and smooth out results eachmonth where they can, but over
the long term that hurtsperformance.
It might assist in the shortterm in getting fun in the door,
(18:37):
but one of the things we'reattracted to is to try and
embrace that volatility insteadof smoothing it out with a
shorter-term focus, because wethink that has the potential to
improve outcomes for ourinvestors in the long run.
So they're the sorts of things.
So a bit of a contrarianapproach a little bit, I think,
(18:58):
just acknowledging what the painpoints are and if those pain
points are in conflict with thelonger-term outcome, you want be
attracted to go through thepain in the short term.
I think that correlates betweenboth professional sport and
investing.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, and you were a leader at West Coast and also at
Carlton officially the captainDid you have.
Sorry, maybe if you can shareyour leadership traits that you
learnt at whilst playingfootball and how has that
(19:36):
transferred to leading?
You mentioned you've got oneanalyst, but obviously leading a
business and an admin personand has that, and also maybe
talking to external investorsthat invest in your fund, have
those leadership traits playedout and helped you to be
successful in your current role?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think you want the incentives to be aligned, to be
aligned, and I think one of mylearnings, particularly later in
my time as a captain, that youknow, if you want to build
intrinsic motivation, extrinsicdrivers are the worst thing you
can do.
So, for instance, there was atime at Carlton where we would
(20:18):
punish people if they were lateor sloppy with extra training,
and I think that's really thewrong way to look at things.
You know, on the one hand, tosay that you want people that
are intrinsically driven to wantto achieve, but then
subconsciously telling them thatthe training is a punishment is
(20:40):
sort of in conflict.
So to just be really clear onthe different messages that
you're sending and to have thoseincentives aligned, I think is
really important, yeah, butthere's look, I think there's
some of the lessons.
I think the other thing is justto be the leader.
(21:02):
That you are, not the leaderthat you think the picture in
the textbook says you should be,is a really important learning
as well, because there's lots ofdifferent ways to lead, and
people will be more attracted tofollow someone when they feel
they're following an actualhuman, as opposed to someone
who's robotic or is trying toimitate a textbook view of what
(21:24):
leadership should be.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, so your culture within your current firm?
Is that something that you'vebeen able to?
You obviously talk aboutauthenticity so authentic and
maybe, if you could share whatis your culture, is it
challenging the status quo ofthe CEOs to make sure that you
(21:46):
are allocating your investmentsto the right company?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I think culturally, yeah, being authentic is really
important.
I want to create a funenvironment for our staff, Like
I've never had to sit down withmy analyst and say you've got to
be back in the office five daysa week.
Like he's in the office fivedays a week, as am I, you know,
because I think it's a goodenvironment to be in and one
(22:12):
that's enjoyable.
And then, internally, I want usto feel particularly fussy
about the things we invest in.
So the metaphor we will use isyou know, we should imagine
we're the best looking girl inthe world at a bar and we're
(22:32):
single.
And why would you settle, ifthat was you, for a guy with bad
breath or a pot belly or a shitsense of humour, um, or a bald
guy?
That's a joke, fabian.
I'm not far off, mate.
Don't worry, I'm not far off.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Everyone knows, bald guys are a great catch.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
That's why my brothers keep telling me to
shave it off, but you know, ifwe meet with management and they
say they're going to dosomething and it hasn't been
done or there's something wedon't like.
You know there's been a coupleof instances in the fund where
we've given them the benefit ofthat and we just want to be
fussier than that and and to cutit, and you might cut it and
miss out on something.
That's fine.
We just, in terms ofprobabilities, if we have that
(23:16):
mindset of being the fussiestperson in the bar, because our
capital can invest anywhere, wecan invest in any company we
want and actually anywhere inthe world, not just australia.
So we just shouldn't settle onmanagement teams that we're not
certain on it doesn't meanthey're bad people, but if we're
just not completely 100%confident in it, we should be
fussy enough to look elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
You want to have that high conviction in what you
invest in.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, because our capital is unconstrained.
It's so often it's easy to lookat the portfolio and go well,
if we sell that we'll miss outand it might go up and it might.
But if there's, you know, somehalf red flags you've already
seen, history will tell us we'rebetter off cutting it and just
moving to something that's ahigher probability of going up.
It doesn't mean the thing youcut won't go up, but we just
(24:00):
want to stack the odds in ourfavour.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And, like you said, you're unconstrained, I assume
you're.
Are you benchmark aware orbenchmark unaware?
Or are you benchmark aware orbenchmark unaware?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
We're measured against the Aussie Small Lords
Accumulation Index, so the smalllisted companies in Australia,
and that's our focus.
But we do have the ability toinvest in large cap stocks and
we do have the ability to investoverseas.
So it's a really broad mandate.
But we are measured against theASX Smalls because that's where
our focus is.
But we also acknowledge we'reliving in a world where weird
(24:30):
things happen.
You know we had a stage wherewe were locked in our homes for
two or three years.
Not long ago we had a periodwhere there was $18 trillion
worth of negative yielding debt.
So we just want to have thatbroad mandate because if there
is something really strangehappening, we want that freedom
to be able to invest insomething that we think can
(24:51):
benefit from it.
We don't want to be constrainedby synthetic rules we've
created for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, and I guess that's with a lot of equity
funds.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
They are constrained Big time and that's hard, that's
a much easier fund to marketbecause an allocator say right,
you'll sit neatly in our smallsbucket, you'll sit in our large
cap bucket, you'll sit in ourglobal bucket.
From an allocator's perspective, we almost fit more in an
alternative strategy becausewe're not neatly just small caps
, even though that's where ourbias sits.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, and do you go out and meet the CEOs it sounds
like of the companies?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, particularly in any small company, we do.
You know some of the larger capcompanies we won't get
one-on-ones with, but you knowearning season and stuff.
We're sitting on those calls aswell and, yeah, that's a big
part of the advantage you knowwe would.
There's always someone on theother side of a trade.
We would like to think that alot of the time with us it's a
(25:49):
mum or dad that's working fulltime, doesn't have the ability
to meet management, can getoverly emotional, both to the
upside and the downside, andthat's why small cap stocks can
be so appealing, because thereare often times where they're,
when they're under-researched ornot researched at all, without
a lot of other institutionalinvestors there yet.
(26:10):
So in an ideal world, that'swhere we play, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And what advice would you give yourself as a
21-year-old still playing atWest Coast?
I believe, yeah.
How old are you when youtransitioned to Carlton?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I was 23 or 24.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, let's say 23 or 24, just transition to Carlton.
What advice would you givesomeone that might be in a
similar situation to you 23, attheir peak of their sports
profession to where you aretoday what to start thinking
about for their transition totheir next career?
Or is it too early to startthinking about that?
(26:48):
Is it 100% all about being thebest professional athlete you
can be?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I would have said there's going to be some weird
Japanese guy called SatoshiNakamoto and listen to what he's
saying early no, what would Ihave said?
You know, I wouldn't havelistened anyway at that age.
You know what?
I wouldn't have listened anywayat that age.
but um, no, look I think mostthings they look externally like
(27:17):
they're about knowing moreabout you know a topic or
knowing more about somethingelse.
Most of these things are moreabout knowing yourself.
You know sports a big one forthat and I think investing's a
big one for that, and I thinkinvesting is a big one for that.
The challenge is more aroundreally knowing yourself what
your skills are and what yourpsychology is like and what
you're suited to.
And I think if you know that,then you better.
(27:39):
You'll be able to better workout what game you're playing,
because everyone in listedequities is playing a different
game.
You need to know what your gameis.
Are you a short-term trader,are you a swing trader, are you
a long-term value guy?
And once you know your skills,what game you're playing, you're
sort of half a chance.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
What have been the biggest learnings for you
transitioning into portfoliomanagement?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I'm wrapped.
I did it because I was aprivate investor before starting
this, so my analyst was alreadyworking for me pre the fund.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, so just investing your own money.
My own capital in listedequities and then you employed
someone to help you do researchfor that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And so that was going really well.
And I would talk to people.
They would ask what I was doingand I'd say I was a private
investor and it sort of lookedlike I was unemployed.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Some people would maybe call it like a family
office.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, like the large Jewish families would laugh if I
said what I was doing wasrunning a family office, but the
workflow would look similar.
So that's what I was doing andthat was going well, but there
was just there just wasn't quiteenough pressure for it to be as
meaningful as I would like it.
And I also was aware that themost enjoyment I'd had investing
(28:57):
was when I was investingalongside a group of people and
we'd have a winner and you couldring up and you know, sort of
celebrate it and that's what youcan miss as a private investor.
You know, football is a higherpressure environment than most
people would think.
You know to perform your taskin front of 80,000 people,
(29:23):
100,000 people live, and thenhave I don't know a million
people watching on the screenjudging your every move.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
In the papers during the week.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
In the papers you make an error, then you're
wearing it on Monday night andsocial media and a bad day in
the AFL isn't your portfoliodown 2%, it's being driven to
hospital with an injury thatyou're then going to be wearing
for the rest of your life.
You know, like I remember I metwith a big wealth group when I
(29:56):
started the fund and they saidyou know you're going to have
some bad days.
Like how are you going to copewith a bad day when the market's
crashing and it's like, well,you know, bad day in the old job
is you're being driven tohospital with a traumatic brain
injury.
Or, you know, your leg snappedin half, like I think.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I'll be all right.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Relative bad days, not so bad, yeah, like we'll be
okay, and so, yeah, I think thatsort of perspective has been
useful as well.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
No, that's good.
So you've obviouslysuccessfully transitioned to
your current position.
What advice would you give forsomeone that is maybe nearing
the end of their professionalsports and maybe looking to
transition but doesn't know whatto transition to?
Now we've seen, unfortunately,people that are professional
(30:47):
sports people people I've spokento.
Now we've seen, unfortunately,people that are professional
sports people people I've spokento maybe feel like they lack a
bit of purpose.
So what advice would you giveto people that are nearing the
end of their career, whether itbe forced because of injury or
maybe because their performanceis not the level it needs to be
to continue on and get an extrayear's contract?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, I think it's good to get going with something
while you're still playingfootball, because people really
be much more inclined to help atthat stage of your career.
And then I think it's importantthey're doing something they're
suited to.
So to not just do somethingbecause their parents said they
should do it or because peoplethey look up to that's what
(31:27):
they're good at.
To actually understand whatyou're skilled at more so than
what you like, because if you'regood at something, you're going
to end up liking it.
I think that's really important.
I don't think people often havea clear understanding of what
their actual skills are.
And then that idea of actuallystarting your own thing to not
(31:49):
go too early at that becausethat's hard Like start your own
business, start your own fund,whatever it is.
I just think you want to reallybe ready for that, because if
you rush in too early and you'renot certain that's what you
really like or that's whatyou're good at, you know you're
pot committed then and you'vegot to find a way to make it
work.
So get going early.
Know what you're pot committedthen, and you've got to find a
(32:11):
way to make it work.
So get going early, know whatyou're good at.
I think guys that have extendedbreaks after their footy career
can be challenging.
You know, they have six monthsoff to travel and that turns
into a year and that turns into18 months.
I think that's a bit dangerous.
So to sort of get going and toalso be give yourself a bit of
(32:32):
patience, you're not going toknow.
So the idea that the firstthing you're going to do after
footy is going to be right, it'snot how it works.
You know a really goodtransition.
You've been mucking around forthree years trying lots of
different things and theneventually it becomes clear no,
this is what I'm suited to, thisis what I'm good at, this is
what I'm interested in.
Don't expect that's going tohappen after six months, but you
(32:54):
need to get going early so youcan start drawing the line
through different things and getcloser to be doing what you
should be doing.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
And I guess it's okay if you try something and it
doesn't work out.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Big time.
So I mean, that's the challengefooty players have, because
they've often got a high profileand people being what they are,
there'll be plenty of peoplerooting for them to fail.
If someone without a profiletries a new venture and it
doesn't work out, no one outsideof their immediate friends
group knows.
You've just got to get overthat potential ego cost and just
(33:29):
get going and try things, andif it doesn't work out, who
cares?
Um, because the alternative isto not try anything.
And then you're 20 years downthe track and you you're bitter
and twisted at those that thathad a crack.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, so, and is there any?
Do you have a mentor currently,or someone a couple of people
that have influenced your career?
Someone you've looked up ofpeople that have influenced your
career, someone you've lookedup to that's helped shape your
career both as a footballer butalso as a finance professional?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
No, like I've got lots of people I speak to,
truckloads that I speak to andlearn off, and lucky enough to
mix with a lot of smart peoplefrom different walks of life but
I don't have a formalisedmentor or anything.
Different walks of life but Idon't have a formalised mentor
or anything, but they'recertainly different friends or
people I lean on for lots ofdifferent life lessons.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, and if people want to invest alongside you
co-invest, can they do that?
Yeah, absolutely, we're onlyopen to wholesale investors.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
They can go to our website, seredymacrofundcomau.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
We'll share that on our socials as well.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
And they can find our monthly reports, which gives
you a bit of a feel of how wethink about investing and how
we've done, and they can followperformance and reports there
and if it's something for them,they can get in touch.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Well, thank you.
It's been a pleasure having youon the field and also off the
field, which continues to grow,so we look forward to keeping an
eye on the fund and thank youagain.
Thanks, fabian, cheers.
Thanks, chris, really enjoyedthat, cheers.
Thank you All good to you now.
(35:00):
That was really great.
We stopped recording that one.
Welcome to Finance Friends podcast.
And today we have the wonderfulChris Judd, a two-time Brandylo
medalist, premiership captain,all-australian, multiple times
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Thanks, Fabian.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Looking forward to having achat.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Well, thank you for coming on.
So today I want to talk aboutyour career.
That not only as a footballer,as most people know, but also as
a investment manager, becausethat's what you do today.
So what's the name of yourcompany?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So I'm the founder of the Serity Macro Fund.
So we've been in investmentmarkets in different forms since
retiring from footy about 10years ago and then founded that
about a bit over a year and ahalf ago now.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Maybe just give us a quick overview.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, so we're macro-themed investors, so we
only invest in equities andwe're long only.
And whilst most funds reallyhave a bottom-up focus, we start
with top-down dynamics inmarkets and look for secular
themes that we like and pay alot of attention to liquidity
metrics and then go throughbottom-up analysis then.
(01:09):
So it's how I investedprivately before the fund and I
guess you know from a macro sideof things, that's really around
stories and is almost a way ofviewing the world and explaining
what's going on in the world.
So I've always been fascinatedby macroeconomics and that's
really the part of the marketthat excites me the most.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And at what age did you become interested in
financial markets?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I bought my first shares when I was 16.
I got some money for the AISfor an academy that I was a part
of and looked at the old manand said what's the deal with
that?
And he said I don't know.
And so we walked down to thenews agency and got a share
magazine and we bought sharesand it was a toss-up between AWA
(01:56):
, which was a small OEMmanufacturer, or Woolworths
actually, and we went with AWA,which fortuitously got bought
out.
It wasn't a great company andwe got out of jail, I suspect,
on that one, but certainlyWoolworths would have been a
good buy and hold from what'sthat 26 years ago?
Yeah, but that was it.
I didn't grow up in a financialfamily at all.
(02:17):
My parents, whilst Clever, hadzero interest in markets or
finance.
My grandfather, my dad's dad,liked his stocks.
So I'm not sure if the passionskipped a generation or what
happened.
But I think, being naturallycompetitive by nature, there's
an attraction particularly tolisted equities where there's a
(02:39):
real scoreboard every day, andI'm not the sort of investor
that says the scoreboard's wrong.
That's the scoreboard, and thenyou work out if you won or not
based on what you hold, andthere's something about that
accountability that I reallyenjoy.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And is that stemmed as a child?
You talk about always beingcompetitive, having that
competitive nature.
Was that when you were?
Do you have any siblings?
Did you have a competitivenature or just playing footy
growing up?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You know I think that's a personality type and
you know I score incredibly lowon agreeability.
So I'm you know, naturally I'malways have the urge to take the
other side of someone's view,which can be an annoying trait
when you live with someone.
(03:31):
But as an investor, I thinkthat's a useful characteristic,
because if you believedeverything a CEO told you when
you meet with them, you'd beinvesting in every single
company that you ever met with.
So I think that high level ofdisagreeability and
competitiveness, whilst annoyingin some instances in life, is
useful for both professionalsport and investing, because any
(03:54):
time you invest, you'reessentially saying the market's
wrong.
You know how arrogant is that.
You're saying that the pricethat the market has given this
asset is incorrect and I'm rightbecause of X, y, z.
So it's.
You know I think it's a reallytough career path for people
that are highly agreeable,because how do you make that
(04:16):
call each day?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, and it's interesting because a lot of
portfolio managers are quiteunique and maybe aren't easily,
like you said, agreeable, butthey look beyond maybe a
friendship or a sales pitch tounderstand the company more
deeply and invest accordingly.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, I mean there's plenty of careers in finance
that work if you're agreeable.
You know wealth management,asset allocation things like
that, but picking individualstock names yeah, we know wealth
management, asset allocation,things like that.
But picking individual stocknames, yeah, I think it's suited
to those personality traitsbecause, like I said, you're
making the decision each daythat the market's wrong and the
price they're allocating tothose things, yep.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
And what skills did you learn as a?
If you take a step back, so youwere drafted to West Coast as
an 18-year-old, so were yourbiggest learnings early on in
your career as a footballer?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
then we can help to understand how that's
transitioned to being asuccessful portfolio manager
yeah, look, I think, um, in twoof the lessons learned and
there's sort of thousands, uh,that probably resonate with
investing One that springs tomind is you know to take notice,
(05:30):
or the importance of when afootball club or a company's
culture is aligned with theircompetitive advantage.
So often it's easy to think inlife that culture's got to look
a certain way.
So an example in the real worldwould be if you met an
accounting firm and theircompetitive advantage, they said
(05:51):
, was trust and reliability andcompliance, and everyone is
walking around with purple hairand drinking booze at lunchtime
and there's bring your dog towork day and loud music blaring
the office.
That would be a misalignment ofculture and competitive
advantage.
That exact same culture wasalive at an advertising agency
(06:12):
whose competitive advantage wascoming up with ideas that no one
else has thought of andthinking outside the box.
There may be good alignmentthere and that's something I
look for in companies today andthat's something that resonates
with my football career.
You know, particularly from theWest Coast days, where the
competitive advantage of thatteam and why that team was able
to disrupt if you like, usingfinance vernacular the Brisbane
(06:35):
Lions teams that were muchheavier and stronger than
everyone else was just throughimmense running power, and it
was probably the first team toreally value both running and
being light, which has nowbecome a real focus of midfield
groups across the competition.
Since, and culturally, it wasjust an expectation that when
you come to pre-season on dayone, you'd be running near
(06:57):
personal best times on beeptests and various other running
tests that were implemented, andthere was never a point where
you know a management coach or apsychologist said we've got to
have our culture aligned withour competitive advantage.
It just naturally evolved butit became a very powerful thing,
and so that's something I thinkyou can take from both sport
(07:18):
and investing.
And the other thing I think isjust the rewards.
The big rewards in both sportand investing go to people
prepared to do somethingdifferent.
They're also the major losses,unfortunately, and you weigh up
the cost benefits of doing that.
In sport, because it's sobinary.
(07:39):
I think it makes more sense totake more risk and do something
different, because followingbest practice has a habit of
getting you sort of top four atbest, but not the whole way to
victory.
Business is a little bitdifferent.
If I run a listed supermarketbusiness, there can be two,
(07:59):
three successful supermarkets.
So following best practice maymake more sense.
So you need to be clear on whatgame you're playing, but
certainly the major rewards,whether it's in sport or
investing, go to those that dosomething different first.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, and I guess it depends on what part of the
business cycle you're at as well.
You know, if you are a newcomer, you want to disrupt, but if
you're maybe a mature businesslike a Coles or Woolworths,
you've got to do properly.
Maybe you don't need to do toomuch disrupting.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, that's right, but it still means the major
awards will go to those doingsomething different.
It doesn't mean it's right foreveryone, but, yeah, you're not
seeing a lot of 10, 20xcompanies that are just
following the path of someoneelse.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
At what age were you when you realised that you are
ready for that transition out ofprofessional sport into
financial services?
Is there a certain point inyour life that you thought, wow,
this is probably getting closeto that time.
Or were you preparing for thatthroughout your career?
I realised when I snapped myACL I was ready for a transition
(09:03):
out of AFL, your career I?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
realised when I snapped my ACL, I was ready for
a transition out of AFL.
And then look, my initialthoughts was I'd become a either
buy a small operating companyor or start a company, you know,
a traditional sort of operatingbusiness, a small business,
largely because theentrepreneurs I admired the most
at that stage of my life.
(09:25):
That's what they did and andthat should have been a huge
mistake, which I was reallyfortunate I didn't end up doing.
I um, and it would have been ahuge mistake because I love.
I love ideas and exploringideas at depth.
I don't love managing largeamounts of people and dealing
with a lot of HR issues, sofunds management is a great
business to found for someonelike that, because you do spend
(09:48):
most of your days thinking aboutideas.
You know my staff consists ofone analyst and a lady in
administration, but the lion'sshare of my time is spent
exploring concepts, which isboth what I'm good at and what I
really enjoy.
So, yeah, that's how it pannedout.
I was lucky enough to get a jobas an analyst post that injury
(10:09):
at a venture capital fund, whichwas a really good experience,
and I learnt a lot, and that wasmy first foray into sort of the
corporate world.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So were you still playing professional sport at
that point?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, that was about a couple of months post-career.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Okay, and did you do any study while you were at
university?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I didn't complete anything.
I did a media andcommunications course that I
didn't complete, and I startedan MBA and didn't complete that
either.
So I'd done a little bit ofstudy, but I had been investing
privately at a reasonablysophisticated level for well
since my sort of mid-20s.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Can you share an example of an investment you did
as a private investor?
Because I'd imagine as aprofessional sports person
that's in the public eye, you'dprobably get a lot of people
trying to pitch investment ideasto you.
How do you navigate that?
Do you have an advisor?
Do you navigate it on your own?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah.
So I did it all myself because,I mean, I executed through
brokers but I sort of didn'thave a wealth manager or someone
holding my hand, because Iwanted to be I didn't want to be
dependent on other peoplepost-football and wanted to
develop those skills myself,which I'm really glad I did at
the time.
That meant I made a heap ofcrappy investments in my early
(11:28):
20s and I was lucky enough tomeet the founder of Euros in my
sort of mid-20s.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Which are a broking firm out of WA, which are a
broking firm out of WA.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So I was in Melbourne at the time, but he really took
me under his wing and reallytaught me how to invest in small
and micro cap companies, andwhat that means is really
learning how to sell.
You know it's really easy to tobuy listed equities.
(11:55):
It's really challenging to sell, so to start to develop a bit
of framework around that wasuseful.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
So just when you talk about sell, what do you mean by
that?
Can you be deeper?
So sell equities as in ifyou're the company, no, no.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So like when I make a decision to buy $100 worth of a
stock that's easy.
What's hard is when to sellthat stock, because it might've
ripped three times and you'reconvinced it's going to be the
next Fortescue, or it might'vebe down 30% and the competitive
part of you wants to get tobreak even before you sell.
I mean that's a wholepsychological event that you
(12:33):
need to align with the type ofinvestor you are and you want to
be and what's actuallyhappening within that company.
So that's the real skill set inequities and particularly in
small cap equities.
You know, if I look at propertyinvesting, you know,
particularly pre all thedifferent taxes the government
particularly Victoria slapped on.
(12:54):
But for me property the skillis in the buying.
If you buy property really well, there's really been no reason
to sell it.
You know you can leverageagainst it if it goes berserk
and use that cash somewhere else.
Traditionally, if you're boughta good property small and
micro-cap equities aren't likethat If you, you know, even if
(13:17):
you buy well, the skill is inthe selling.
So that's really what I learnedin my 20s and I guess my style
of investing then was almostakin to a VC investor's
mentality where I think thissmaller microcap company can do
X, y, z and then get re-ratedand then that might be in a
liquidity event when I wouldsell Yep, as opposed to a VC
(13:41):
company where they will say thisSeries A opportunity, they can
do X, y, z, re-rate, and thenwe'll raise a new Series B round
.
So it was that sort of mindset,but always enlisted equities
and always place a huge premiumon liquidity.
Yep listed equities and alwaysplace a huge premium on
liquidity.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, because obviously VC they'll invest
early days, not more seedinvestments, more concepts, so
that the business is generallyrunning and then you know, look
to whether you say exit throughanother raise or through an IPO
or a share trade sale.
So talk me through your timebeing an analyst within a
(14:21):
venture capital firm.
What did your job involve?
What was the day-to-day?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So I was the first point of call for all the
companies that were wantingcapital from that VC fund.
So I was the initial screeningpoint, if you like.
So I saw every company thatcame in the door and then would
do, I guess, some reasonablybasic analysis and then
recommend to the portfoliomanager if he should commit time
(14:47):
to more extensive DD.
So it was a good grounding infinance and a good ability to
see lots of different businesses, but also a good ability to
learn.
I don't like VC investing, andparticularly in Australia where
the addressable markets arequite small.
It was almost a premium onbeing a liquid, which I always
(15:11):
struggled to get my head around.
I was looking at plenty oflisted companies at the same
time that were trading much morecheaply, yet you could get in
and out of them, you know,whenever you wanted it at some
level, depending on buyinginterest.
So it just didn't.
It sort of didn't work for thetype of investing that sort of
(15:35):
and that's the other thing withinvesting is you can make it
however you want.
Whatever your personality traitis, there's a style of investing
that suits you.
You know people sort of assumeif you're an investor you have
to be X, y Z.
But you know, if you're a mathgenius, you might be building
algorithms.
(15:55):
If you're a macro guy, youmight like stories.
If you're a you know value guy,you might be building
algorithms.
If you're a macro guy, youmight like stories.
If you're a value guy, youmight be obsessed with bottom-up
analysis.
If you're a you went to Scotchyou might like bonds, I don't
know.
Whatever your background is,there's a type of investing
that's for you and that's one ofthe.
That's sort of somesimilarities to AFL as well.
(16:17):
There's generally a spot foryou for most body shapes at some
level in AFL.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So what are your biggest learnings from AFL that
you've been able to move intobeing a successful portfolio
manager?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Look, I think being attracted to discomfort is one.
So you know, in professionalsport it's fairly easy to work
out what people don't want to dobecause it's uncomfortable, and
then when those things thatpeople don't want to do are
efficacious for performance,that's where you should zero in.
(16:53):
So, for example, you knowpeople lying on a massage table
is useful for performance.
It can loosen up the lower back, it can get rid of a tight
hammy, but it's pretty relaxingto do so.
There's no competitive edge indoing it.
You know, when you compare thatto acupuncture needles, which
(17:16):
might be more uncomfortable buteven better outcome physically,
you know it's to always be onthe lookout for things which
people don't want to do, thatcan help performance.
I mean, social media is anotherone.
Like if you had to do a quizfor which professional athletes
are on social media, it would be99% yeah.
(17:37):
Yet those same athletes wear atorrent of abuse from you know
all sorts of nuffies online whothey've never met, and I think
there's very few.
there'd be a couple of differentpersonality types where it
might help their performance,but very few Yet everyone's on
it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Because it gives you a short-term dopamine hit and it
provides comfort and, you know,if you're single, it might be a
good way to meet people.
X, y, z, so they're the sortsof things that often
high-performing athletes areattracted to, things that are
uncomfortable, that others don'twant to do.
That help performance and it'sa long-winded way of getting to.
How does that apply toinvestment markets?
(18:15):
You know so as a portfolio, youknow that investors hate
volatility, so there's a strongdesire for portfolio managers to
try and smooth out results eachmonth where they can, but over
the long term that hurtsperformance.
It might assist in the shortterm in getting fun in the door,
(18:37):
but one of the things we'reattracted to is to try and
embrace that volatility insteadof smoothing it out with a
shorter-term focus, because wethink that has the potential to
improve outcomes for ourinvestors in the long run.
So they're the sorts of things.
So a bit of a contrarianapproach a little bit, I think,
(18:58):
just acknowledging what the painpoints are and if those pain
points are in conflict with thelonger-term outcome, you want be
attracted to go through thepain in the short term.
I think that correlates betweenboth professional sport and
investing.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, and you were a leader at West Coast and also at
Carlton officially the captainDid you have.
Sorry, maybe if you can shareyour leadership traits that you
learnt at whilst playingfootball and how has that
(19:36):
transferred to leading?
You mentioned you've got oneanalyst, but obviously leading a
business and an admin personand has that, and also maybe
talking to external investorsthat invest in your fund, have
those leadership traits playedout and helped you to be
successful in your current role?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think you want the incentives to be aligned, to be
aligned, and I think one of mylearnings, particularly later in
my time as a captain, that youknow, if you want to build
intrinsic motivation, extrinsicdrivers are the worst thing you
can do.
So, for instance, there was atime at Carlton where we would
(20:18):
punish people if they were lateor sloppy with extra training,
and I think that's really thewrong way to look at things.
You know, on the one hand, tosay that you want people that
are intrinsically driven to wantto achieve, but then
subconsciously telling them thatthe training is a punishment is
(20:40):
sort of in conflict.
So to just be really clear onthe different messages that
you're sending and to have thoseincentives aligned, I think is
really important, yeah, butthere's look, I think there's
some of the lessons.
I think the other thing is justto be the leader.
(21:02):
That you are, not the leaderthat you think the picture in
the textbook says you should be,is a really important learning
as well, because there's lots ofdifferent ways to lead, and
people will be more attracted tofollow someone when they feel
they're following an actualhuman, as opposed to someone
who's robotic or is trying toimitate a textbook view of what
(21:24):
leadership should be.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, so your culture within your current firm?
Is that something that you'vebeen able to?
You obviously talk aboutauthenticity so authentic and
maybe, if you could share whatis your culture, is it
challenging the status quo ofthe CEOs to make sure that you
(21:46):
are allocating your investmentsto the right company?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I think culturally, yeah, being authentic is really
important.
I want to create a funenvironment for our staff, Like
I've never had to sit down withmy analyst and say you've got to
be back in the office five daysa week.
Like he's in the office fivedays a week, as am I, you know,
because I think it's a goodenvironment to be in and one
(22:12):
that's enjoyable.
And then, internally, I want usto feel particularly fussy
about the things we invest in.
So the metaphor we will use isyou know, we should imagine
we're the best looking girl inthe world at a bar and we're
(22:32):
single.
And why would you settle, ifthat was you, for a guy with bad
breath or a pot belly or a shitsense of humour, um, or a bald
guy?
That's a joke, fabian.
I'm not far off, mate.
Don't worry, I'm not far off.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Everyone knows, bald guys are a great catch.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
That's why my brothers keep telling me to
shave it off, but you know, ifwe meet with management and they
say they're going to dosomething and it hasn't been
done or there's something wedon't like.
You know there's been a coupleof instances in the fund where
we've given them the benefit ofthat and we just want to be
fussier than that and and to cutit, and you might cut it and
miss out on something.
That's fine.
We just, in terms ofprobabilities, if we have that
(23:16):
mindset of being the fussiestperson in the bar, because our
capital can invest anywhere, wecan invest in any company we
want and actually anywhere inthe world, not just australia.
So we just shouldn't settle onmanagement teams that we're not
certain on it doesn't meanthey're bad people, but if we're
just not completely 100%confident in it, we should be
fussy enough to look elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
You want to have that high conviction in what you
invest in.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, because our capital is unconstrained.
It's so often it's easy to lookat the portfolio and go well,
if we sell that we'll miss outand it might go up and it might.
But if there's, you know, somehalf red flags you've already
seen, history will tell us we'rebetter off cutting it and just
moving to something that's ahigher probability of going up.
It doesn't mean the thing youcut won't go up, but we just
(24:00):
want to stack the odds in ourfavour.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And, like you said, you're unconstrained, I assume
you're.
Are you benchmark aware orbenchmark unaware?
Or are you benchmark aware orbenchmark unaware?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
We're measured against the Aussie Small Lords
Accumulation Index, so the smalllisted companies in Australia,
and that's our focus.
But we do have the ability toinvest in large cap stocks and
we do have the ability to investoverseas.
So it's a really broad mandate.
But we are measured against theASX Smalls because that's where
our focus is.
But we also acknowledge we'reliving in a world where weird
(24:30):
things happen.
You know we had a stage wherewe were locked in our homes for
two or three years.
Not long ago we had a periodwhere there was $18 trillion
worth of negative yielding debt.
So we just want to have thatbroad mandate because if there
is something really strangehappening, we want that freedom
to be able to invest insomething that we think can
(24:51):
benefit from it.
We don't want to be constrainedby synthetic rules we've
created for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, and I guess that's with a lot of equity
funds.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
They are constrained Big time and that's hard, that's
a much easier fund to marketbecause an allocator say right,
you'll sit neatly in our smallsbucket, you'll sit in our large
cap bucket, you'll sit in ourglobal bucket.
From an allocator's perspective, we almost fit more in an
alternative strategy becausewe're not neatly just small caps
, even though that's where ourbias sits.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, and do you go out and meet the CEOs it sounds
like of the companies?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, particularly in any small company, we do.
You know some of the larger capcompanies we won't get
one-on-ones with, but you knowearning season and stuff.
We're sitting on those calls aswell and, yeah, that's a big
part of the advantage you knowwe would.
There's always someone on theother side of a trade.
We would like to think that alot of the time with us it's a
(25:49):
mum or dad that's working fulltime, doesn't have the ability
to meet management, can getoverly emotional, both to the
upside and the downside, andthat's why small cap stocks can
be so appealing, because thereare often times where they're,
when they're under-researched ornot researched at all, without
a lot of other institutionalinvestors there yet.
(26:10):
So in an ideal world, that'swhere we play, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And what advice would you give yourself as a
21-year-old still playing atWest Coast?
I believe, yeah.
How old are you when youtransitioned to Carlton?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I was 23 or 24.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, let's say 23 or 24, just transition to Carlton.
What advice would you givesomeone that might be in a
similar situation to you 23, attheir peak of their sports
profession to where you aretoday what to start thinking
about for their transition totheir next career?
Or is it too early to startthinking about that?
(26:48):
Is it 100% all about being thebest professional athlete you
can be?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I would have said there's going to be some weird
Japanese guy called SatoshiNakamoto and listen to what he's
saying early no, what would Ihave said?
You know, I wouldn't havelistened anyway at that age.
You know what?
I wouldn't have listened anywayat that age.
but um, no, look I think mostthings they look externally like
(27:17):
they're about knowing moreabout you know a topic or
knowing more about somethingelse.
Most of these things are moreabout knowing yourself.
You know sports a big one forthat and I think investing's a
big one for that, and I thinkinvesting is a big one for that.
The challenge is more aroundreally knowing yourself what
your skills are and what yourpsychology is like and what
you're suited to.
And I think if you know that,then you better.
(27:39):
You'll be able to better workout what game you're playing,
because everyone in listedequities is playing a different
game.
You need to know what your gameis.
Are you a short-term trader,are you a swing trader, are you
a long-term value guy?
And once you know your skills,what game you're playing, you're
sort of half a chance.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
What have been the biggest learnings for you
transitioning into portfoliomanagement?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I'm wrapped.
I did it because I was aprivate investor before starting
this, so my analyst was alreadyworking for me pre the fund.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, so just investing your own money.
My own capital in listedequities and then you employed
someone to help you do researchfor that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And so that was going really well.
And I would talk to people.
They would ask what I was doingand I'd say I was a private
investor and it sort of lookedlike I was unemployed.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Some people would maybe call it like a family
office.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, like the large Jewish families would laugh if I
said what I was doing wasrunning a family office, but the
workflow would look similar.
So that's what I was doing andthat was going well, but there
was just there just wasn't quiteenough pressure for it to be as
meaningful as I would like it.
And I also was aware that themost enjoyment I'd had investing
(28:57):
was when I was investingalongside a group of people and
we'd have a winner and you couldring up and you know, sort of
celebrate it and that's what youcan miss as a private investor.
You know, football is a higherpressure environment than most
people would think.
You know to perform your taskin front of 80,000 people,
(29:23):
100,000 people live, and thenhave I don't know a million
people watching on the screenjudging your every move.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
In the papers during the week.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
In the papers you make an error, then you're
wearing it on Monday night andsocial media and a bad day in
the AFL isn't your portfoliodown 2%, it's being driven to
hospital with an injury thatyou're then going to be wearing
for the rest of your life.
You know, like I remember I metwith a big wealth group when I
(29:56):
started the fund and they saidyou know you're going to have
some bad days.
Like how are you going to copewith a bad day when the market's
crashing and it's like, well,you know, bad day in the old job
is you're being driven tohospital with a traumatic brain
injury.
Or, you know, your leg snappedin half, like I think.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I'll be all right.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Relative bad days, not so bad, yeah, like we'll be
okay, and so, yeah, I think thatsort of perspective has been
useful as well.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
No, that's good.
So you've obviouslysuccessfully transitioned to
your current position.
What advice would you give forsomeone that is maybe nearing
the end of their professionalsports and maybe looking to
transition but doesn't know whatto transition to?
Now we've seen, unfortunately,people that are professional
(30:47):
sports people people I've spokento.
Now we've seen, unfortunately,people that are professional
sports people people I've spokento maybe feel like they lack a
bit of purpose.
So what advice would you giveto people that are nearing the
end of their career, whether itbe forced because of injury or
maybe because their performanceis not the level it needs to be
to continue on and get an extrayear's contract?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, I think it's good to get going with something
while you're still playingfootball, because people really
be much more inclined to help atthat stage of your career.
And then I think it's importantthey're doing something they're
suited to.
So to not just do somethingbecause their parents said they
should do it or because peoplethey look up to that's what
(31:27):
they're good at.
To actually understand whatyou're skilled at more so than
what you like, because if you'regood at something, you're going
to end up liking it.
I think that's really important.
I don't think people often havea clear understanding of what
their actual skills are.
And then that idea of actuallystarting your own thing to not
(31:49):
go too early at that becausethat's hard Like start your own
business, start your own fund,whatever it is.
I just think you want to reallybe ready for that, because if
you rush in too early and you'renot certain that's what you
really like or that's whatyou're good at, you know you're
pot committed then and you'vegot to find a way to make it
work.
So get going early.
Know what you're pot committedthen, and you've got to find a
(32:11):
way to make it work.
So get going early, know whatyou're good at.
I think guys that have extendedbreaks after their footy career
can be challenging.
You know, they have six monthsoff to travel and that turns
into a year and that turns into18 months.
I think that's a bit dangerous.
So to sort of get going and toalso be give yourself a bit of
(32:32):
patience, you're not going toknow.
So the idea that the firstthing you're going to do after
footy is going to be right, it'snot how it works.
You know a really goodtransition.
You've been mucking around forthree years trying lots of
different things and theneventually it becomes clear no,
this is what I'm suited to, thisis what I'm good at, this is
what I'm interested in.
Don't expect that's going tohappen after six months, but you
(32:54):
need to get going early so youcan start drawing the line
through different things and getcloser to be doing what you
should be doing.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
And I guess it's okay if you try something and it
doesn't work out.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Big time.
So I mean, that's the challengefooty players have, because
they've often got a high profileand people being what they are,
there'll be plenty of peoplerooting for them to fail.
If someone without a profiletries a new venture and it
doesn't work out, no one outsideof their immediate friends
group knows.
You've just got to get overthat potential ego cost and just
(33:29):
get going and try things, andif it doesn't work out, who
cares?
Um, because the alternative isto not try anything.
And then you're 20 years downthe track and you you're bitter
and twisted at those that thathad a crack.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, so, and is there any?
Do you have a mentor currently,or someone a couple of people
that have influenced your career?
Someone you've looked up ofpeople that have influenced your
career, someone you've lookedup to that's helped shape your
career both as a footballer butalso as a finance professional?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
No, like I've got lots of people I speak to,
truckloads that I speak to andlearn off, and lucky enough to
mix with a lot of smart peoplefrom different walks of life but
I don't have a formalisedmentor or anything.
Different walks of life but Idon't have a formalised mentor
or anything, but they'recertainly different friends or
people I lean on for lots ofdifferent life lessons.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, and if people want to invest alongside you
co-invest, can they do that?
Yeah, absolutely, we're onlyopen to wholesale investors.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
They can go to our website, seredymacrofundcomau.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
We'll share that on our socials as well.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
And they can find our monthly reports, which gives
you a bit of a feel of how wethink about investing and how
we've done, and they can followperformance and reports there
and if it's something for them,they can get in touch.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Well, thank you.
It's been a pleasure having youon the field and also off the
field, which continues to grow,so we look forward to keeping an
eye on the fund and thank youagain.
Thanks, fabian, cheers.
Thanks, chris, really enjoyedthat, cheers.
Thank you All good to you now.
(35:00):
That was really great.
We stopped recording that one.
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