March 17, 2026 • 29 mins
Loneliness is everywhere, and most of us are pretending it is not.
In this episode of Listening for the Questions, Patti Fletcher, Dan Ward, and Lynne Cuppernull take on a topic that is deeply personal, widely shared, and still difficult to talk about. This conversation is not about being alone. It is about disconnection from others, from community, and sometimes from ourselves. It is about the quiet ways loneliness shows up even in full rooms, busy lives, and successful careers.
Together, they explore why loneliness is rising even as we are more connected than ever. They look at the difference between solitude, isolation, and loneliness. They examine how cultural expectations, especially around gender, shape who experiences loneliness and who feels allowed to admit it. They also discuss how loneliness often hides behind productivity, independence, and the appearance of having everything together.
The conversation moves beyond the individual and into the systems around us. What happens when community structures weaken. What happens when relationships become transactional. What happens when independence is valued more than interdependence. These are not abstract ideas. They shape how we live and how we connect.
As always, this is not an episode focused on solving the problem. It is about asking better questions. Loneliness is not a personal failure. It is a human signal.
This episode invites you to notice where loneliness may be present in your life, how you respond to it, and what might change if we approached connection with more honesty, intention, and care.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Candace Pert: Genius, Greed, and Madness in the World of Science by Pamela Ryckman https://www.amazon.com/Candace-Pert-Genius-Madness-Science/dp/0306831465
Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation. U.S. Surgeon General’s Advisory on the Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf
Health Benefits of Hugs
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-health-benefits-of-hugging-202202162693
Psychology Today. Male Loneliness
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/loneliness
Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
Baby monkey bonding with stuffed animal
https://people.com/baby-monkey-at-zoo-goes-viral-for-having-stuffed-animal-as-friend-11908504
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lynne (00:14):
Hello and welcome back to Listening for the Questions.
I'm Lane Cuppernal.
And once upon a time, I was anextrovert on the Myers-Briggs
type indicator.
But as I've aged, I havedefinitely slid into more of a
preference for introversion.
I love spending time with cozygroups of people I've known for
a long time.
(00:34):
Hello to my dish bags if you'relistening.
Dan (00:37):
Hey everybody, Dan Ward here.
I'm an engineer and a militarytechnologist.
I'm also an author, a juggler,and a punk, and I am a big
extrovert.
I love being with big crowds ofpeople, and I love making new
friends.
Patti (00:50):
And I'm Dr.
Patty Fletcher, and I can't stopgiggling just for folks to know.
Lynn said dish bag, not theother DB.
So I am the comic on this show.
I'm also a recovering C-suiteexecutive from Big Tech,
leadership futurist working atthe intersection of people,
business, technology, data.
(01:11):
I am a best-selling author.
And like Lynn, and folks whoknow me might be surprised, I
went from being an extrovert onMyers Briggs to being an
introvert, but I think I'm anextroverted introvert, and I
probably have been all along.
I love being around people andI'm exhausted at the end of the
day, except for when I spendtime with Dan, my favorite
(01:32):
extrovert.
I am so happy to be here with mytwo very good friends, um, Dan
and Lynn, who make me feelalways welcome in a little less
alone.
Lynne (01:42):
Patty has named it.
Today we are gonna talk about areally important topic.
We're gonna ask the questionsthat we should be listening for
about loneliness.
And as usual, we like to set thestage with some foundational
questions.
Uh so when we talk aboutloneliness, maybe we should ask
is there a difference betweenloneliness, solitude, and being
(02:07):
alone?
Patti (02:08):
Lynn, I love that.
And you know, I they sit hereand go, and does it matter,
right?
Does understanding thedifferences help us know how to
work through these things?
Dan (02:21):
Oh, I love where you're going with this.
So what do you think?
Should should we answer some ofthose questions?
Maybe, maybe just a little bit?
Lynne (02:27):
Yes, yes.
You know, we love to, wesecretly love to answer some of
the questions, or maybe not sosecretly.
Um, so yes, I think we should.
There's a really good reportthat the former U.S.
Surgeon General, Vivek uhMurphy, put out in 2023 that
talks about a lonelinessepidemic.
(02:47):
Uh, and it's in our show notesuh for those of you who want to
find it.
And in it he says loneliness ismore than a bad feeling.
It's about social disconnectionthat actually makes people feel
less healthy.
Patti (03:03):
Yeah, you know, this report, I couldn't get enough of
it.
I earmarked it, I, you know, Iread it, I thought about a few
things.
One, I'm gonna bring thefeminism lens in here.
There is a woman, Candace Purt,um, when she was at the NIH, and
my friend Pamela Reichman wrotethe book, uh biography on her,
so check it out.
But Candace, back in I think theearly 70s, late 60s, when she
(03:24):
was at the NIH, was the one whooriginated the uh understanding
and concept that there is adirect link between mental
health and physical health.
And um, you know, that was kindof poo-pooed, and now we all
know that.
And this report is right on,right?
And like with people with backpain, you know, supposedly it's
90%, you know, mental and 10%physical.
So when this report came out, Iwas the chief marketing officer
(03:48):
at a technology company thatfocused in on health and
well-being at work, total healthand well-being at work.
And, you know, I saw all themental health challenges.
This was post-COVID, right?
And the things kind of comingthrough that were helping with
people.
And, you know, one thing that Ifound so interesting in this
report that directly related tonot only mental health issues,
(04:09):
but an increase in kind ofphysical health issues that I
was seeing through the system isthat that report said the impact
of loneliness is equivalent tosmoking 15 cigarettes a day,
right?
And it has a greater impact onphysical health than obesity and
physical inactivity, the twothings we've been talking about
(04:32):
in this country in the US for,you know, at least 20 years.
What do you guys think aboutthat?
Dan (04:37):
That is so amazing.
I mean, what if the solution toso many of the physical health
problems in the world?
What if the solution to that isis social connections, is is
addressing the loneliness aspectof it.
And, you know, I love in thisreport, I love that the subtitle
is an advisory on the healingeffects of social connection and
community.
(04:58):
As an extrovert, I think thatsubtitle is amazing, but just as
a human, I think it's amazing.
The healing effects of socialconnection.
So I find myself asking, like,how does social connection
improve my cardiovascularhealth?
Because apparently it does.
How does social connectionreduce my risk of stroke?
And if I'm not lonely, does thismean I can spend less time on
(05:19):
the treadmill now?
Lynne (05:21):
Well, Dan, should probably keep running.
Uh, because physical activity,the legit physical activity,
also improves your health.
And it makes me wonder if socialconnections improve our health,
what might we do to increase oursocial connections?
I mean, kind of like what's theexercise move we make to um
(05:45):
increase our social connections?
I mean, one thing that comes tomind is could you combine them,
go for a run or a walk with afriend?
Uh, that makes us physicallyless lonely and healthier,
maybe.
Patti (06:02):
Yeah, I love that, Lynn.
And I'm thinking about, youknow, my mom always used to say,
right, like everything's betterafter a walk.
And, you know, I feel that inand I think about like when I'm
happiest walking, absolutely,right?
I combine business meetings withwith walking.
I love walking with friends, butdoes it always have to be with
the human, right?
You both know how much I love myWinnie, right?
(06:22):
My four-legged baby, who I mayas well have birthed her, right?
Like I that's just just you knowhow I feel about her.
And when I'm with her, she is mybest friend, right?
And and I feel, I know I makeher feel whole, and I know she
does too.
And so I'm wondering, like, whatwould this report say, right?
About like can the same impactof physical the endorphin, you
(06:42):
know, activities, fresh air,it's when I do my best thinking
and meditating.
Um, and if it's with someone,right?
If that's, you know, and I knowwe'll talk about loneliness and
and you know, is that the sameas being alone?
You know, the other thing, Lynn,when I was listening to you and
listening to you, Dan, is likewhen I think about loneliness,
like I feel a physical impact inmy body, right?
(07:04):
And so, like, is is it um adjustand emotional, or am I the only
one who has a physical reactionto loneliness, which means my
body is probably working harderinternally, right?
Which then the aches, the pains,all of that stuff.
And when we do feel it, where dowe carry it?
I think that is one of thephysical kind of components that
(07:27):
could make you not feel wellphysically.
Dan (07:30):
Yeah, I love that question about where do we feel the
lonely?
Where do we carry it in ourbodies?
Uh, and and that questionreminds me of some research that
shows hugs reduce pain andanxiety and depression.
I mean, consensual hugs, ofcourse.
That's an important thing to bespecific about, for sure.
But if we can measure the healthbenefits of hugs, it does make
me wonder about the equivalence.
(07:51):
Like how many hugs equals amile?
And I promise I'm not trying toget out of my time on the
treadmill.
And and do dog hugs count?
Do dog hugs count?
I love that.
Lynne (08:02):
So I I'm thinking about dogs, and I'm sorry for the cat
lovers listening out there, butI'm thinking about our dogs part
of the antidote to loneliness.
Uh, and at first I thought,well, but they don't really
increase social connection,except for they do.
I mean, how many times are youout walking your dog and you
(08:23):
stop to talk to another dogperson and their dog, your dog
is friends with their dog?
And it's it's like this wholeconnection.
I don't know if I have aquestion in there or more just
that I want to point out thatsocial connection maybe doesn't
have to just be human.
Dan (08:37):
Oh, Lynn, I haven't thought about this experience in a long
time.
But when I was in Afghanistan,uh, there was a day where I got
to meet a dog.
It was a it was a bomb-sniffingdog, a working dog who was off
duty and just wandering aroundthe compound.
And I remember what anemotional, physical experience
that was.
This was the happiest dog in thecamp, or this dog was the
(08:59):
happiest troop in the camp, andjust delighted to like wander
around and get petted.
And it boosted my mood for fordays.
I remember writing home.
I got to see a dog today, I gotto pet a dog today.
So, yes, I think dogs have ahuge um impact on our mental
health, our loneliness, ourphysical health.
Patti (09:19):
I don't know if you've been following this little
monkey in Japan.
And so, this little monkey, Iforgot the kind that it is, and
it its mother rejected it.
And then the other littlemonkeys in the in the zoo um
were rejecting it.
And so it was alone, it wasreally lonely.
So the staff gave it this bigstuffed um orange monkey stuffed
(09:40):
animal that the little monkeywould drag around.
And in like it was so hard tolook at these videos and see
this little baby monkey, like,you know, just essentially
getting literally pushed out ofthis social thing, had
absolutely no friends, no one totake care of.
Eventually, right?
It's starting to make friends,they're starting like, but the
(10:02):
sad face and just literally thedepression.
And you know, when we just movedthis past June, my dog, who grew
up in the same house, had herbest friend who is her wife next
door.
That's right, came from justbefore this episode.
Like, they these dogs reallymissed each other, right?
And you know, we know that thereare multiple dogs in the
household, and and one, youknow, is no longer with us.
(10:24):
And so, like the lonelinessepidemic, think about that for
animals during post-COVID, whenall these folks that was a surge
in dogs, and you know, again,I'm sure cats feel this too, but
dogs were or you know, monkeys,right?
Where it's not just a humanthing, right?
For pack kind of animals orsocial animals, it is for all of
(10:48):
us, right?
And so it goes back to my doggets anxiety because she's
lonely, right?
We get anxiety because we'relonely.
And yet, if someone were to askme, How am I, what do you think
I would say to them?
I'm fine.
Exactly.
You'd say fine.
My dog is like, I'm sad, right?
And there's no like trying tomake it okay for me.
(11:10):
Are we contributing to our ownloneliness?
And maybe we should talk aboutloneliness, isolation, you know,
being alone and thosedifferences.
We but are we contributing toour own loneliness because we
don't want to burden others, wedon't want to talk about it,
kind of like the questions we'vebeen avoiding, right?
Like from the last episode.
But like I know I just asked 15different questions in there,
(11:32):
but let's talk about that.
Dan (11:34):
And Patty, asking 15 questions at once, you've come
to the right podcast.
Patti (11:39):
I want some damn answers.
Lynne (11:42):
Well, Patty, so just I'm just gonna home in on a present.
Patti (11:47):
Yes.
Lynne (11:47):
The question around, you know, if you were to ask me how
I was feeling, we all knew youwould say fine.
Um what are we what are wepreventing other people from
doing for us by answering thatquestion with fine?
Dan (12:05):
What are we preventing other people from doing for us
by answering that questiondishonestly, really?
Yeah, I'm just sitting with thatquestion too.
And how can we bring morehonesty into our answers?
Maybe the question is this wouldwe be less lonely if there was
less stigma around loneliness?
Patti (12:25):
Oh if we stopped pretending, right?
Because we felt like we had to.
I can't believe we're not pastthat yet.
Why are we not past that yet?
Lynne (12:37):
I feel like the place where we're the most not past
it, if that makes sense, is inthe workplace, where we don't
talk about loneliness at all.
And yet CEOs are some of theloneliest people I know.
What might change if leadersadmitted to being lonely?
Dan (13:01):
I mean, there's even the saying, it's it's a cliche, it's
lonely at the top.
We've all heard that, a lot ofus have said it, but do we
really acknowledge it and feelit and mean it?
It's lonely at the top, but westill, if somebody says they're
lonely, we act as if it's liketheir fault for being lonely.
Patti (13:19):
You know, it's it's it's interesting.
So, so a few thoughts on that.
I remember, you know, coachingand being a leader, right?
I've been a leader most of mycareer and most of my life, and
um not a manager, a leader.
And one thing I've always beenvery adamant about is I am not
your therapist.
(13:39):
I'm not your mother, right?
When someone works for me.
And so they they bring all theirstuff to work.
And you I did in veryintentionally, although very
human and supportive, it was notgoing to be a relationship where
I was going to pretend to beanyone's therapist, right?
So my job is to sweep the debrisout of the way.
And so, you know, I'm sittinghere going, have I contributed
(14:01):
to loneliness?
The thing about leadership, Ihave been in the C-suite.
I do sit at boards.
It is lonely at the top.
And if we think about Maslow'shierarchy, you know, survival is
at the bottom, and at the verytop is self-actualization.
I think about it as a mountainand not a pyramid.
And so what happens when youclimb the mountain?
Less oxygen, less peopleconditioned, less oxygen, less
(14:24):
people conditioned until you getto the top.
And so part of the challengewith the loneliness piece there,
and I'm wondering, is it becauseso few of us were there?
Is it because as leaders, if itdoesn't look like I know what
I'm doing and I can't handle it,and especially women, I'm not
going to open my kimono thatfar, right?
(14:45):
But mostly when I think aboutthe loneliness, I had nobody I
could really talk to who hadbeen down this path before.
And luckily, I started joiningorganizations with women who
were, you know, a few years oror beyond that ahead of me.
So I was finally able to get,you get what I'm going through,
(15:05):
right?
You were, you had mom who areteenagers, you were taking care
of your mother, you know, whohad Alzheimer's, you were, you
were navigating this, you had todeal with the board on that, you
had to go deal with the SEC onthat.
And so you are dealing withmajor complexities and also, you
know, other people's money,right, as investors and people's
jobs.
(15:26):
And, you know, part of me isjust going, that's just part of
the job.
And but then I'm listening toyou, Lynn, and going, but does
it have to be?
Right.
And there are performancecoaches out there, there's a
whole industry out there that'strying to serve this need for
people, but it's aboutperformance, not about humanity.
It's about fueling me aroundthings like loneliness and
(15:48):
physical health so that I canperform optimally.
It is lonely at the top.
And is that just kind of theprice you pay to be at the top?
Dan (15:59):
Yeah, I love that, Patty.
So much to unpack there.
You know, we say it's lonely atthe top, and the question that
comes to my mind is does it haveto be?
Like, does it have to be lonelyat the top?
Do we've just sort of assumedthat and we've accepted that, or
are there alternatives, likemany of which you just
described?
And then if we think of youknow, the leader's role in an
organization is to set the tonefor the organization.
(16:20):
Now I'm wondering, do lonelyleaders build lonely
organizations?
And if the leader was lesslonely, would the organization
as a whole be healthier?
Lynne (16:29):
Yes, Dan, you've got me thinking, is loneliness just one
person, right?
Is loneliness solitary?
Or is there such a thing ascollective loneliness?
And and does and what does itlook like?
How do you know that a team oran organization is experiencing
(16:51):
collective loneliness?
Dan (16:54):
Collective loneliness, I love that phrase.
Patti (16:56):
Collective loneliness.
I just wrote that down.
I have my pencil, I'm gonna putit in pen.
You know, and but for me, thenit keeps going back to but
therefore, what is the role ofthe workplace?
Right.
And so we had talked a fewepisodes ago about it being kind
of the last safe haven where wecan talk about things, right?
And that's true.
However, um, I might get fired,I might get let go, I might have
(17:18):
to fire you, I might have to letgo.
Work is changing sofundamentally that kind of
full-time employment, you know,is is probably gonna be for the
very few, right?
And instead it's project level,so you're not always working
permanently, like that's adifferent kind of leadership
that's gonna be required there.
And so part of me is do wecontinue investing in that,
knowing that that's gonna changeand how do we roll with the
(17:41):
punches?
And so one of the conversationswe had was um ChatGPT released
in a report around how peopleare using the number one use
case for Chat GPT from its usersis mental health related.
It's basically therapy.
But has this helped us or hurtus in terms of connection?
(18:02):
Where are you guys thinking?
What are the questions we shouldbe asking when it comes to how
AI can help us solve thisproblem?
Not for everybody, but forourselves.
Lynne (18:11):
Well, and Patty, I think I want to go back to the the
question you asked, which is isAI helping with loneliness or is
it making it worse?
And we should just challenge ourown biases as we listen to that
question.
Because I know in my head I hadan answer.
Uh, and I think that we justshouldn't assume we know the
(18:34):
answer to that question or orthat the answer is obvious.
Dan (18:39):
Right, or that there is an answer.
What if what if there's morethan one answer to that
question?
And speaking of questions, andI'm going to get super meta
here, especially for thispodcast, what do we primarily do
with AI as we ask it questions?
But I wonder does the practiceof asking questions make us less
lonely?
Particularly asking otherhumans, you know, there's an
(19:01):
opportunity to kind of buildsocial connections.
So, can asking questions help usbuild social connections with AI
or with humans?
And does that then make us lesslonely?
And then really, what kind ofquestions should we be asking
and to whom, if we want to usequestions as that exercise to
get back to what Lynn was askingearlier, if questions can serve
(19:23):
as the exercise to build socialconnections, what questions
whom, when, what how do weactually put that into practice?
Patti (19:31):
You know, it's interesting as I'm listening to
you and thinking how we startedthe conversation around
introverts and extroverts andextroverted introverts.
Are introverts more likely to belonely or feel isolated or no,
because that's not how they'refueled, versus an extrovert who
might feel lonely or isolatedbecause they're not among the
(19:53):
people.
And, you know, therefore, youknow, Dan and Lynn, you're
right.
There is no one answer.
There are multiple answers.
But can we talk of this kind ofgo back to personality types?
Because I think that'simportant.
And I do want to go down thepath of the difference between
loneliness, isolation, and kindof how that's feeling for you
all.
Because I think that's reallythe guts of what this is.
Dan (20:14):
Yeah, so there's a great lyric in a song uh by the band
Dawes where he says, the onlytime I'm lonely is when others
are around.
He's probably an introvert andhe feels isolated in this larger
group.
And so, yeah, this idea of beingalone, being alone isn't doesn't
correlate with being lonely.
(20:34):
Loneliness is when he's in a bigcrowd and feels socially
disconnected from all thesepeople.
So, yeah, the only time I'mlonely is when other others are
around is just uh a fascinatinginsight into into his own
psyche, and I think probably alot of people have that
experience as well.
Lynne (20:52):
Yeah, Dan, I think I think you're on to something
there.
This idea that loneliness is itmore about the absence of social
connection than it is aboutphysically being alone, right?
We we can choose to be alone,but the absence of social
connection is something thatmaybe we we want it and we're
(21:16):
not choosing not to have it.
Dan (21:18):
Yeah, and as an extrovert, I love my alone time.
I really do.
And my time with peoplerecharges me and regenerates me,
but that alone time is also animportant thing.
And I don't feel lonely when I'mby myself, except for when I do,
right?
Patti (21:34):
Yeah.
And I I want to bring in, andyou know, again, I'm gonna do
this before Dan gets to, andthat's feminism.
We often have to contort who weare to fit into a system not
meant for us, right?
So not be our most authenticselves in a world that says, be
authentic.
And so when I think about thetimes I've been most lonely, I
(21:54):
have been surrounded by people,but I was not able to be who I
was.
And it didn't matter if theyaccepted that version of me or
didn't, right?
If I'm able to just be myself,I'm in flow and I'm not lonely,
right?
And what I've noticed is whenI'm feeling those kinds of
inauthentic challenges or thingsdon't feel aligned, that's when
(22:16):
I self-isolate.
But does that resonate with youtoo, you know, in terms of the
loneliness factor and yourauthenticity?
Lynne (22:26):
Yes.
And I think what you're kind ofcoming to is this question of
like whose loneliness are wetalking about?
How does loneliness show updifferently based on gender?
I mean, Patty, you talked aboutgender.
Um how does it show updifferently depending on age?
(22:47):
Culture.
I think some cultures are uhmore effective at social
connection than the Americanculture is.
Uh, so how does it show updifferently?
Dan (23:00):
And and I want to put a pin in that just for a moment and
jump back to something Pattysaid.
I wonder what if loneliness isabout being socially
disconnected from ourselvesalmost more than being socially
disconnected from people aroundus?
Are we maybe less lonely when weare most free to be our
authentic selves?
I wonder if that freedom to beauthentic and to be fully who
(23:23):
you are is sort of the key tothose social connections that
that sort of prevent the theharmful effects of loneliness.
Patti (23:33):
Yeah, I mean it's the basic human need, right?
Feeling seen, feeling heard,feeling understood, feeling
embraced, right?
Or at least accepted.
And how could I ever feel thatway if I'm not just being me,
right?
And is not just being me kind ofgoing back to, you know, the
lying to ourselves, or like, howare we getting in our own way by
(23:55):
saying I'm fine?
Is it not giving others thechance because I've been so
conditioned to believe, youknow, I'm too loud, I'm too
this, I'm too that.
And those things might be true,you guys.
Um, but but but right, someoneout there is gonna love it.
But but I do, I wonder, it'slike this vicious cycle.
Shouldn't those be the thingswe're really talking about?
(24:16):
And by the way, that's part ofthe leadership isolation as
well, because you have to, youare told, and you kind of do,
have to put this persona outthere, you know, so people have
confidence in you.
And isn't it interesting we lookat leaders in tough situations?
And it's only okay for men to bevulnerable and be seen as a
strength, but if a woman does,she's weak.
And so, you know, those were alot of the things that I had to
(24:38):
face, right?
And that my counterparts did.
Dan (24:40):
Yeah.
So so let's talk aboutconditioning, like you
mentioned.
You know, a lot of us Gen Xers,we had a lot of practice being
alone by being latchkey kids aswe were growing up.
And and now a lot of people areshocked that we're fine being
alone.
So, what is the Gen X experienceof loneliness like now compared
with the Gen X experience ofbeing lonely when we were kids?
Lynne (25:00):
I'm thinking about loneliness and the left out,
right?
So I feel like they're cousinsbeing left out of something.
And remember, you you knew youwere being left out if um there
were like 20 bikes at somebody'shouse outside their house on the
lawn, and your bike was not withtheir bikes.
(25:20):
And and I feel like now it'ssocial media, right?
If everyone sees that onInstagram or or probably Snap,
or I don't even know what peopleare using uh that are young, uh,
but they see that everyone issomewhere and you're not there.
Is that is that a part ofloneliness?
Is this um not being included?
Patti (25:39):
FOMO, right?
It just does it at scale and andinstantly.
And isn't it interesting thatit's not just teenagers, right?
I have women my own age going,but we're part of this friend
group, and I just saw that theyall went to St.
Lucia and I'm not in thosephotos.
And the whole group has thewhole, do we post photos or
don't we post photos?
And do we right?
(26:00):
Like it's it is crazy how ittaps into those teenage angst
kinds of I'm being left out.
And Dan, I love you brought upGen X because I'm proud about
many things.
I'm proud of the year I wasborn, I'm proud of being a
Scorpio, I'm proud of being awoman, I'm proud of being Gen X,
right?
Oh, and then our median.
Um, and so, so like those thingsare awesome.
And we really were raised in theschool of hard knocks, right?
(26:22):
Our parents, like we all jokenow, right, had to have that,
you know, it's 10 o'clock, doyou know where your kids are
thing?
Because they didn't realize theyhad children.
And so, like, you know, we'rejust you were out in the
morning, it didn't come backuntil nighttime, right?
And it didn't matter you were inthe woods.
I think because we did have tofigure so much out on our own.
And so I'm wondering now with myown parenting, where I tried to
(26:44):
make things, I wasn't ahelicopter mom, but the times I
did step in, I don't know if Igave my daughters the
opportunity to develop healthycoping mechanisms where they
would have to figure stuff outon their own, or they were bored
and had to figure it out ontheir own.
And, you know, is our generationcontributing to the Gen Z and
Gen Alpha generations aroundthey are far more lonely and yet
(27:08):
they have access to so many morepeople we never had access to
because we didn't have the tech.
Lynne (27:14):
Well, I think I know what maybe one of our future topics
is going to be, which is whatare the questions we should be
asking about generationaldifferences?
Uh, because we could we could begoing on and on today.
And I'm sad to say that that isour time for today.
We really hoped that you enjoyedthis time to be together and
(27:35):
that you're thinking about thequestions you can ask about
loneliness.
Um, how are you sociallydisconnected from yourself?
And maybe within your team oryour organization, just ask
somebody to meet for coffee.
Patti (27:52):
I love that.
Lynn, I hope you go to coffeewith me.
So thanks for listening to ourpod, everyone.
And we really do hope that youwill take some time in the next
few days to get together withthe people in your life you want
to be surrounded by.
Dan (28:10):
And I just want to say thanks to both of you, Patty and
Lynn, for spending this timetogether with me.
I feel more socially connectedwith you both.
And that is lovely, and I'm sureis a boost to my cardiac health.
So today's episode was sponsoredby the U.S.
Surgeon General.
Okay, not really, but that'd becool, right?
Uh, we do hope though you'llread that advisory on the
healing effects of socialconnections.
The link is in the show notes.
Patti (28:32):
Our music was composed by Jake Cuppernal.
Lynne (28:35):
Our cover art was created by Matt Graham.
Hello and welcome back to Listening for the Questions.
I'm Lane Cuppernal.
And once upon a time, I was anextrovert on the Myers-Briggs
type indicator.
But as I've aged, I havedefinitely slid into more of a
preference for introversion.
I love spending time with cozygroups of people I've known for
a long time.
(00:34):
Hello to my dish bags if you'relistening.
Dan (00:37):
Hey everybody, Dan Ward here.
I'm an engineer and a militarytechnologist.
I'm also an author, a juggler,and a punk, and I am a big
extrovert.
I love being with big crowds ofpeople, and I love making new
friends.
Patti (00:50):
And I'm Dr.
Patty Fletcher, and I can't stopgiggling just for folks to know.
Lynn said dish bag, not theother DB.
So I am the comic on this show.
I'm also a recovering C-suiteexecutive from Big Tech,
leadership futurist working atthe intersection of people,
business, technology, data.
(01:11):
I am a best-selling author.
And like Lynn, and folks whoknow me might be surprised, I
went from being an extrovert onMyers Briggs to being an
introvert, but I think I'm anextroverted introvert, and I
probably have been all along.
I love being around people andI'm exhausted at the end of the
day, except for when I spendtime with Dan, my favorite
(01:32):
extrovert.
I am so happy to be here with mytwo very good friends, um, Dan
and Lynn, who make me feelalways welcome in a little less
alone.
Lynne (01:42):
Patty has named it.
Today we are gonna talk about areally important topic.
We're gonna ask the questionsthat we should be listening for
about loneliness.
And as usual, we like to set thestage with some foundational
questions.
Uh so when we talk aboutloneliness, maybe we should ask
is there a difference betweenloneliness, solitude, and being
(02:07):
alone?
Patti (02:08):
Lynn, I love that.
And you know, I they sit hereand go, and does it matter,
right?
Does understanding thedifferences help us know how to
work through these things?
Dan (02:21):
Oh, I love where you're going with this.
So what do you think?
Should should we answer some ofthose questions?
Maybe, maybe just a little bit?
Lynne (02:27):
Yes, yes.
You know, we love to, wesecretly love to answer some of
the questions, or maybe not sosecretly.
Um, so yes, I think we should.
There's a really good reportthat the former U.S.
Surgeon General, Vivek uhMurphy, put out in 2023 that
talks about a lonelinessepidemic.
(02:47):
Uh, and it's in our show notesuh for those of you who want to
find it.
And in it he says loneliness ismore than a bad feeling.
It's about social disconnectionthat actually makes people feel
less healthy.
Patti (03:03):
Yeah, you know, this report, I couldn't get enough of
it.
I earmarked it, I, you know, Iread it, I thought about a few
things.
One, I'm gonna bring thefeminism lens in here.
There is a woman, Candace Purt,um, when she was at the NIH, and
my friend Pamela Reichman wrotethe book, uh biography on her,
so check it out.
But Candace, back in I think theearly 70s, late 60s, when she
(03:24):
was at the NIH, was the one whooriginated the uh understanding
and concept that there is adirect link between mental
health and physical health.
And um, you know, that was kindof poo-pooed, and now we all
know that.
And this report is right on,right?
And like with people with backpain, you know, supposedly it's
90%, you know, mental and 10%physical.
So when this report came out, Iwas the chief marketing officer
(03:48):
at a technology company thatfocused in on health and
well-being at work, total healthand well-being at work.
And, you know, I saw all themental health challenges.
This was post-COVID, right?
And the things kind of comingthrough that were helping with
people.
And, you know, one thing that Ifound so interesting in this
report that directly related tonot only mental health issues,
(04:09):
but an increase in kind ofphysical health issues that I
was seeing through the system isthat that report said the impact
of loneliness is equivalent tosmoking 15 cigarettes a day,
right?
And it has a greater impact onphysical health than obesity and
physical inactivity, the twothings we've been talking about
(04:32):
in this country in the US for,you know, at least 20 years.
What do you guys think aboutthat?
Dan (04:37):
That is so amazing.
I mean, what if the solution toso many of the physical health
problems in the world?
What if the solution to that isis social connections, is is
addressing the loneliness aspectof it.
And, you know, I love in thisreport, I love that the subtitle
is an advisory on the healingeffects of social connection and
community.
(04:58):
As an extrovert, I think thatsubtitle is amazing, but just as
a human, I think it's amazing.
The healing effects of socialconnection.
So I find myself asking, like,how does social connection
improve my cardiovascularhealth?
Because apparently it does.
How does social connectionreduce my risk of stroke?
And if I'm not lonely, does thismean I can spend less time on
(05:19):
the treadmill now?
Lynne (05:21):
Well, Dan, should probably keep running.
Uh, because physical activity,the legit physical activity,
also improves your health.
And it makes me wonder if socialconnections improve our health,
what might we do to increase oursocial connections?
I mean, kind of like what's theexercise move we make to um
(05:45):
increase our social connections?
I mean, one thing that comes tomind is could you combine them,
go for a run or a walk with afriend?
Uh, that makes us physicallyless lonely and healthier,
maybe.
Patti (06:02):
Yeah, I love that, Lynn.
And I'm thinking about, youknow, my mom always used to say,
right, like everything's betterafter a walk.
And, you know, I feel that inand I think about like when I'm
happiest walking, absolutely,right?
I combine business meetings withwith walking.
I love walking with friends, butdoes it always have to be with
the human, right?
You both know how much I love myWinnie, right?
(06:22):
My four-legged baby, who I mayas well have birthed her, right?
Like I that's just just you knowhow I feel about her.
And when I'm with her, she is mybest friend, right?
And and I feel, I know I makeher feel whole, and I know she
does too.
And so I'm wondering, like, whatwould this report say, right?
About like can the same impactof physical the endorphin, you
(06:42):
know, activities, fresh air,it's when I do my best thinking
and meditating.
Um, and if it's with someone,right?
If that's, you know, and I knowwe'll talk about loneliness and
and you know, is that the sameas being alone?
You know, the other thing, Lynn,when I was listening to you and
listening to you, Dan, is likewhen I think about loneliness,
like I feel a physical impact inmy body, right?
(07:04):
And so, like, is is it um adjustand emotional, or am I the only
one who has a physical reactionto loneliness, which means my
body is probably working harderinternally, right?
Which then the aches, the pains,all of that stuff.
And when we do feel it, where dowe carry it?
I think that is one of thephysical kind of components that
(07:27):
could make you not feel wellphysically.
Dan (07:30):
Yeah, I love that question about where do we feel the
lonely?
Where do we carry it in ourbodies?
Uh, and and that questionreminds me of some research that
shows hugs reduce pain andanxiety and depression.
I mean, consensual hugs, ofcourse.
That's an important thing to bespecific about, for sure.
But if we can measure the healthbenefits of hugs, it does make
me wonder about the equivalence.
(07:51):
Like how many hugs equals amile?
And I promise I'm not trying toget out of my time on the
treadmill.
And and do dog hugs count?
Do dog hugs count?
I love that.
Lynne (08:02):
So I I'm thinking about dogs, and I'm sorry for the cat
lovers listening out there, butI'm thinking about our dogs part
of the antidote to loneliness.
Uh, and at first I thought,well, but they don't really
increase social connection,except for they do.
I mean, how many times are youout walking your dog and you
(08:23):
stop to talk to another dogperson and their dog, your dog
is friends with their dog?
And it's it's like this wholeconnection.
I don't know if I have aquestion in there or more just
that I want to point out thatsocial connection maybe doesn't
have to just be human.
Dan (08:37):
Oh, Lynn, I haven't thought about this experience in a long
time.
But when I was in Afghanistan,uh, there was a day where I got
to meet a dog.
It was a it was a bomb-sniffingdog, a working dog who was off
duty and just wandering aroundthe compound.
And I remember what anemotional, physical experience
that was.
This was the happiest dog in thecamp, or this dog was the
(08:59):
happiest troop in the camp, andjust delighted to like wander
around and get petted.
And it boosted my mood for fordays.
I remember writing home.
I got to see a dog today, I gotto pet a dog today.
So, yes, I think dogs have ahuge um impact on our mental
health, our loneliness, ourphysical health.
Patti (09:19):
I don't know if you've been following this little
monkey in Japan.
And so, this little monkey, Iforgot the kind that it is, and
it its mother rejected it.
And then the other littlemonkeys in the in the zoo um
were rejecting it.
And so it was alone, it wasreally lonely.
So the staff gave it this bigstuffed um orange monkey stuffed
(09:40):
animal that the little monkeywould drag around.
And in like it was so hard tolook at these videos and see
this little baby monkey, like,you know, just essentially
getting literally pushed out ofthis social thing, had
absolutely no friends, no one totake care of.
Eventually, right?
It's starting to make friends,they're starting like, but the
(10:02):
sad face and just literally thedepression.
And you know, when we just movedthis past June, my dog, who grew
up in the same house, had herbest friend who is her wife next
door.
That's right, came from justbefore this episode.
Like, they these dogs reallymissed each other, right?
And you know, we know that thereare multiple dogs in the
household, and and one, youknow, is no longer with us.
(10:24):
And so, like the lonelinessepidemic, think about that for
animals during post-COVID, whenall these folks that was a surge
in dogs, and you know, again,I'm sure cats feel this too, but
dogs were or you know, monkeys,right?
Where it's not just a humanthing, right?
For pack kind of animals orsocial animals, it is for all of
(10:48):
us, right?
And so it goes back to my doggets anxiety because she's
lonely, right?
We get anxiety because we'relonely.
And yet, if someone were to askme, How am I, what do you think
I would say to them?
I'm fine.
Exactly.
You'd say fine.
My dog is like, I'm sad, right?
And there's no like trying tomake it okay for me.
(11:10):
Are we contributing to our ownloneliness?
And maybe we should talk aboutloneliness, isolation, you know,
being alone and thosedifferences.
We but are we contributing toour own loneliness because we
don't want to burden others, wedon't want to talk about it,
kind of like the questions we'vebeen avoiding, right?
Like from the last episode.
But like I know I just asked 15different questions in there,
(11:32):
but let's talk about that.
Dan (11:34):
And Patty, asking 15 questions at once, you've come
to the right podcast.
Patti (11:39):
I want some damn answers.
Lynne (11:42):
Well, Patty, so just I'm just gonna home in on a present.
Patti (11:47):
Yes.
Lynne (11:47):
The question around, you know, if you were to ask me how
I was feeling, we all knew youwould say fine.
Um what are we what are wepreventing other people from
doing for us by answering thatquestion with fine?
Dan (12:05):
What are we preventing other people from doing for us
by answering that questiondishonestly, really?
Yeah, I'm just sitting with thatquestion too.
And how can we bring morehonesty into our answers?
Maybe the question is this wouldwe be less lonely if there was
less stigma around loneliness?
Patti (12:25):
Oh if we stopped pretending, right?
Because we felt like we had to.
I can't believe we're not pastthat yet.
Why are we not past that yet?
Lynne (12:37):
I feel like the place where we're the most not past
it, if that makes sense, is inthe workplace, where we don't
talk about loneliness at all.
And yet CEOs are some of theloneliest people I know.
What might change if leadersadmitted to being lonely?
Dan (13:01):
I mean, there's even the saying, it's it's a cliche, it's
lonely at the top.
We've all heard that, a lot ofus have said it, but do we
really acknowledge it and feelit and mean it?
It's lonely at the top, but westill, if somebody says they're
lonely, we act as if it's liketheir fault for being lonely.
Patti (13:19):
You know, it's it's it's interesting.
So, so a few thoughts on that.
I remember, you know, coachingand being a leader, right?
I've been a leader most of mycareer and most of my life, and
um not a manager, a leader.
And one thing I've always beenvery adamant about is I am not
your therapist.
(13:39):
I'm not your mother, right?
When someone works for me.
And so they they bring all theirstuff to work.
And you I did in veryintentionally, although very
human and supportive, it was notgoing to be a relationship where
I was going to pretend to beanyone's therapist, right?
So my job is to sweep the debrisout of the way.
And so, you know, I'm sittinghere going, have I contributed
(14:01):
to loneliness?
The thing about leadership, Ihave been in the C-suite.
I do sit at boards.
It is lonely at the top.
And if we think about Maslow'shierarchy, you know, survival is
at the bottom, and at the verytop is self-actualization.
I think about it as a mountainand not a pyramid.
And so what happens when youclimb the mountain?
Less oxygen, less peopleconditioned, less oxygen, less
(14:24):
people conditioned until you getto the top.
And so part of the challengewith the loneliness piece there,
and I'm wondering, is it becauseso few of us were there?
Is it because as leaders, if itdoesn't look like I know what
I'm doing and I can't handle it,and especially women, I'm not
going to open my kimono thatfar, right?
(14:45):
But mostly when I think aboutthe loneliness, I had nobody I
could really talk to who hadbeen down this path before.
And luckily, I started joiningorganizations with women who
were, you know, a few years oror beyond that ahead of me.
So I was finally able to get,you get what I'm going through,
(15:05):
right?
You were, you had mom who areteenagers, you were taking care
of your mother, you know, whohad Alzheimer's, you were, you
were navigating this, you had todeal with the board on that, you
had to go deal with the SEC onthat.
And so you are dealing withmajor complexities and also, you
know, other people's money,right, as investors and people's
jobs.
(15:26):
And, you know, part of me isjust going, that's just part of
the job.
And but then I'm listening toyou, Lynn, and going, but does
it have to be?
Right.
And there are performancecoaches out there, there's a
whole industry out there that'strying to serve this need for
people, but it's aboutperformance, not about humanity.
It's about fueling me aroundthings like loneliness and
(15:48):
physical health so that I canperform optimally.
It is lonely at the top.
And is that just kind of theprice you pay to be at the top?
Dan (15:59):
Yeah, I love that, Patty.
So much to unpack there.
You know, we say it's lonely atthe top, and the question that
comes to my mind is does it haveto be?
Like, does it have to be lonelyat the top?
Do we've just sort of assumedthat and we've accepted that, or
are there alternatives, likemany of which you just
described?
And then if we think of youknow, the leader's role in an
organization is to set the tonefor the organization.
(16:20):
Now I'm wondering, do lonelyleaders build lonely
organizations?
And if the leader was lesslonely, would the organization
as a whole be healthier?
Lynne (16:29):
Yes, Dan, you've got me thinking, is loneliness just one
person, right?
Is loneliness solitary?
Or is there such a thing ascollective loneliness?
And and does and what does itlook like?
How do you know that a team oran organization is experiencing
(16:51):
collective loneliness?
Dan (16:54):
Collective loneliness, I love that phrase.
Patti (16:56):
Collective loneliness.
I just wrote that down.
I have my pencil, I'm gonna putit in pen.
You know, and but for me, thenit keeps going back to but
therefore, what is the role ofthe workplace?
Right.
And so we had talked a fewepisodes ago about it being kind
of the last safe haven where wecan talk about things, right?
And that's true.
However, um, I might get fired,I might get let go, I might have
(17:18):
to fire you, I might have to letgo.
Work is changing sofundamentally that kind of
full-time employment, you know,is is probably gonna be for the
very few, right?
And instead it's project level,so you're not always working
permanently, like that's adifferent kind of leadership
that's gonna be required there.
And so part of me is do wecontinue investing in that,
knowing that that's gonna changeand how do we roll with the
(17:41):
punches?
And so one of the conversationswe had was um ChatGPT released
in a report around how peopleare using the number one use
case for Chat GPT from its usersis mental health related.
It's basically therapy.
But has this helped us or hurtus in terms of connection?
(18:02):
Where are you guys thinking?
What are the questions we shouldbe asking when it comes to how
AI can help us solve thisproblem?
Not for everybody, but forourselves.
Lynne (18:11):
Well, and Patty, I think I want to go back to the the
question you asked, which is isAI helping with loneliness or is
it making it worse?
And we should just challenge ourown biases as we listen to that
question.
Because I know in my head I hadan answer.
Uh, and I think that we justshouldn't assume we know the
(18:34):
answer to that question or orthat the answer is obvious.
Dan (18:39):
Right, or that there is an answer.
What if what if there's morethan one answer to that
question?
And speaking of questions, andI'm going to get super meta
here, especially for thispodcast, what do we primarily do
with AI as we ask it questions?
But I wonder does the practiceof asking questions make us less
lonely?
Particularly asking otherhumans, you know, there's an
(19:01):
opportunity to kind of buildsocial connections.
So, can asking questions help usbuild social connections with AI
or with humans?
And does that then make us lesslonely?
And then really, what kind ofquestions should we be asking
and to whom, if we want to usequestions as that exercise to
get back to what Lynn was askingearlier, if questions can serve
(19:23):
as the exercise to build socialconnections, what questions
whom, when, what how do weactually put that into practice?
Patti (19:31):
You know, it's interesting as I'm listening to
you and thinking how we startedthe conversation around
introverts and extroverts andextroverted introverts.
Are introverts more likely to belonely or feel isolated or no,
because that's not how they'refueled, versus an extrovert who
might feel lonely or isolatedbecause they're not among the
(19:53):
people.
And, you know, therefore, youknow, Dan and Lynn, you're
right.
There is no one answer.
There are multiple answers.
But can we talk of this kind ofgo back to personality types?
Because I think that'simportant.
And I do want to go down thepath of the difference between
loneliness, isolation, and kindof how that's feeling for you
all.
Because I think that's reallythe guts of what this is.
Dan (20:14):
Yeah, so there's a great lyric in a song uh by the band
Dawes where he says, the onlytime I'm lonely is when others
are around.
He's probably an introvert andhe feels isolated in this larger
group.
And so, yeah, this idea of beingalone, being alone isn't doesn't
correlate with being lonely.
(20:34):
Loneliness is when he's in a bigcrowd and feels socially
disconnected from all thesepeople.
So, yeah, the only time I'mlonely is when other others are
around is just uh a fascinatinginsight into into his own
psyche, and I think probably alot of people have that
experience as well.
Lynne (20:52):
Yeah, Dan, I think I think you're on to something
there.
This idea that loneliness is itmore about the absence of social
connection than it is aboutphysically being alone, right?
We we can choose to be alone,but the absence of social
connection is something thatmaybe we we want it and we're
(21:16):
not choosing not to have it.
Dan (21:18):
Yeah, and as an extrovert, I love my alone time.
I really do.
And my time with peoplerecharges me and regenerates me,
but that alone time is also animportant thing.
And I don't feel lonely when I'mby myself, except for when I do,
right?
Patti (21:34):
Yeah.
And I I want to bring in, andyou know, again, I'm gonna do
this before Dan gets to, andthat's feminism.
We often have to contort who weare to fit into a system not
meant for us, right?
So not be our most authenticselves in a world that says, be
authentic.
And so when I think about thetimes I've been most lonely, I
(21:54):
have been surrounded by people,but I was not able to be who I
was.
And it didn't matter if theyaccepted that version of me or
didn't, right?
If I'm able to just be myself,I'm in flow and I'm not lonely,
right?
And what I've noticed is whenI'm feeling those kinds of
inauthentic challenges or thingsdon't feel aligned, that's when
(22:16):
I self-isolate.
But does that resonate with youtoo, you know, in terms of the
loneliness factor and yourauthenticity?
Lynne (22:26):
Yes.
And I think what you're kind ofcoming to is this question of
like whose loneliness are wetalking about?
How does loneliness show updifferently based on gender?
I mean, Patty, you talked aboutgender.
Um how does it show updifferently depending on age?
(22:47):
Culture.
I think some cultures are uhmore effective at social
connection than the Americanculture is.
Uh, so how does it show updifferently?
Dan (23:00):
And and I want to put a pin in that just for a moment and
jump back to something Pattysaid.
I wonder what if loneliness isabout being socially
disconnected from ourselvesalmost more than being socially
disconnected from people aroundus?
Are we maybe less lonely when weare most free to be our
authentic selves?
I wonder if that freedom to beauthentic and to be fully who
(23:23):
you are is sort of the key tothose social connections that
that sort of prevent the theharmful effects of loneliness.
Patti (23:33):
Yeah, I mean it's the basic human need, right?
Feeling seen, feeling heard,feeling understood, feeling
embraced, right?
Or at least accepted.
And how could I ever feel thatway if I'm not just being me,
right?
And is not just being me kind ofgoing back to, you know, the
lying to ourselves, or like, howare we getting in our own way by
(23:55):
saying I'm fine?
Is it not giving others thechance because I've been so
conditioned to believe, youknow, I'm too loud, I'm too
this, I'm too that.
And those things might be true,you guys.
Um, but but but right, someoneout there is gonna love it.
But but I do, I wonder, it'slike this vicious cycle.
Shouldn't those be the thingswe're really talking about?
(24:16):
And by the way, that's part ofthe leadership isolation as
well, because you have to, youare told, and you kind of do,
have to put this persona outthere, you know, so people have
confidence in you.
And isn't it interesting we lookat leaders in tough situations?
And it's only okay for men to bevulnerable and be seen as a
strength, but if a woman does,she's weak.
And so, you know, those were alot of the things that I had to
(24:38):
face, right?
And that my counterparts did.
Dan (24:40):
Yeah.
So so let's talk aboutconditioning, like you
mentioned.
You know, a lot of us Gen Xers,we had a lot of practice being
alone by being latchkey kids aswe were growing up.
And and now a lot of people areshocked that we're fine being
alone.
So, what is the Gen X experienceof loneliness like now compared
with the Gen X experience ofbeing lonely when we were kids?
Lynne (25:00):
I'm thinking about loneliness and the left out,
right?
So I feel like they're cousinsbeing left out of something.
And remember, you you knew youwere being left out if um there
were like 20 bikes at somebody'shouse outside their house on the
lawn, and your bike was not withtheir bikes.
(25:20):
And and I feel like now it'ssocial media, right?
If everyone sees that onInstagram or or probably Snap,
or I don't even know what peopleare using uh that are young, uh,
but they see that everyone issomewhere and you're not there.
Is that is that a part ofloneliness?
Is this um not being included?
Patti (25:39):
FOMO, right?
It just does it at scale and andinstantly.
And isn't it interesting thatit's not just teenagers, right?
I have women my own age going,but we're part of this friend
group, and I just saw that theyall went to St.
Lucia and I'm not in thosephotos.
And the whole group has thewhole, do we post photos or
don't we post photos?
And do we right?
(26:00):
Like it's it is crazy how ittaps into those teenage angst
kinds of I'm being left out.
And Dan, I love you brought upGen X because I'm proud about
many things.
I'm proud of the year I wasborn, I'm proud of being a
Scorpio, I'm proud of being awoman, I'm proud of being Gen X,
right?
Oh, and then our median.
Um, and so, so like those thingsare awesome.
And we really were raised in theschool of hard knocks, right?
(26:22):
Our parents, like we all jokenow, right, had to have that,
you know, it's 10 o'clock, doyou know where your kids are
thing?
Because they didn't realize theyhad children.
And so, like, you know, we'rejust you were out in the
morning, it didn't come backuntil nighttime, right?
And it didn't matter you were inthe woods.
I think because we did have tofigure so much out on our own.
And so I'm wondering now with myown parenting, where I tried to
(26:44):
make things, I wasn't ahelicopter mom, but the times I
did step in, I don't know if Igave my daughters the
opportunity to develop healthycoping mechanisms where they
would have to figure stuff outon their own, or they were bored
and had to figure it out ontheir own.
And, you know, is our generationcontributing to the Gen Z and
Gen Alpha generations aroundthey are far more lonely and yet
(27:08):
they have access to so many morepeople we never had access to
because we didn't have the tech.
Lynne (27:14):
Well, I think I know what maybe one of our future topics
is going to be, which is whatare the questions we should be
asking about generationaldifferences?
Uh, because we could we could begoing on and on today.
And I'm sad to say that that isour time for today.
We really hoped that you enjoyedthis time to be together and
(27:35):
that you're thinking about thequestions you can ask about
loneliness.
Um, how are you sociallydisconnected from yourself?
And maybe within your team oryour organization, just ask
somebody to meet for coffee.
Patti (27:52):
I love that.
Lynn, I hope you go to coffeewith me.
So thanks for listening to ourpod, everyone.
And we really do hope that youwill take some time in the next
few days to get together withthe people in your life you want
to be surrounded by.
Dan (28:10):
And I just want to say thanks to both of you, Patty and
Lynn, for spending this timetogether with me.
I feel more socially connectedwith you both.
And that is lovely, and I'm sureis a boost to my cardiac health.
So today's episode was sponsoredby the U.S.
Surgeon General.
Okay, not really, but that'd becool, right?
Uh, we do hope though you'llread that advisory on the
healing effects of socialconnections.
The link is in the show notes.
Patti (28:32):
Our music was composed by Jake Cuppernal.
Lynne (28:35):
Our cover art was created by Matt Graham.
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