April 14, 2026 • 32 mins
Show me the money. Go ahead, say it out loud. Feels good, doesn't it? Now ask yourself why you hesitated.
That hesitation is exactly where this episode starts.
Dr. Patti Fletcher, Lynne Cuppernull, and Dan Ward go well past the balance sheet on this one. Because it turns out when you pull the thread on money, you don't end up talking about money for very long. You end up talking about fear, safety, power, and value. The working-class kid whose mother paid CCD tuition in installments while the teacher announced it to the whole first-grade class. The Armenian genocide and everything it stripped away, not just wealth but everything, passed down generation to generation in ways most of us never stop to examine. The women working three shifts, two of them unpaid, and getting brunch on Mother's Day once a year as compensation.
The questions get uncomfortable fast: Why is it easier for women to ask for money on someone else's behalf than for themselves? Who gets called ambitious for wanting more, and who gets called greedy for the exact same ask? Does money buy happiness, or is it just a proxy for the things we are actually afraid to name? And when the richest man in the world says money can't buy happiness, what exactly is he asking you to believe?
Also: Maud weighs in. Humans invented money. So why does it feel like money has power over humans rather than the other way around?
That one will stay with you.
Listening for the Questions is available wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe, leave a review, and bring a question.
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS POD EPISODE:
High Income Improves Evaluation of Life But Not Emotional Well-being, Daniel Kahneman & Angus Deaton, 2010
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnjennings/2024/02/12/money-buys-happiness-after-all/
AI Boom is driving the economy, NYT Nov 2025
Billie Eilish asking “why are you a billionaire?” https://youtube.com/shorts/BB_buANeTS4?si=tlSfGneqKBJn3M6d
Listening for the Questions is where curiosity is our compass.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Patti (00:14):
Hello and welcome back to Listening for the Questions.
I'm Dr.
Patty Fletcher.
I'm a recovering C-suiteexecutive from Big Tech, a
leadership futurist working atthe intersection of people,
business, technology, and data,a best-selling author, and the
granddaughter of genocidesurvivors.
Today's episode is a topic thattouches on all of that: the
(00:36):
tech, the people, the books, andthe emotions we hold inherent
and pass down to the nextgeneration.
Dan (00:43):
Hey everybody, my name is Dan Ward.
I'm an engineer and a militarytechnologist.
I'm also an author, a juggler,and a punk.
And I spent most of myprofessional career in the
military and working at anonprofit.
And yes, even in those spaces,we spent a lot of time talking
about today's topic.
Lynne (00:58):
And I'm Lane Cuppernall.
I'm a leadership coach and ahealthcare consultant.
I'm also a triathlete.
And as a triathlete, I know howto do hard things.
And that includes talking abouttoday's topic.
Like Dan, I've spent most of myprofessional career in nonprofit
organizations.
But that doesn't mean we didn'ttalk about what we're going to
(01:18):
talk about today, whichdrumroll, that was a big
buildup, is money.
And specifically, what are thequestions we should ask when we
talk about money?
Dan (01:29):
Sometimes we start these podcasts by defining our terms,
like what is the differencebetween loneliness and being
alone?
Or what even is misinformation?
And I don't think we need to dothat today, right?
Because everybody knows whatmoney is, probably.
So the first question I want toask is: why do so many people
find it so hard to talk aboutmoney?
(01:50):
What is it about money thatmakes it such a fraught topic to
ask questions about?
Patti (01:55):
Let me be a little selfish here and go back to
Jerry Maguire and shout it,shout it from the rooftops.
Show me the money, people.
So look, I always want to knowhow do I get more money?
And what I'm really bad at andhave been asking since, you
know, I really thought aboutmoney is how do I stop going
(02:17):
from being someone who thinksabout only earning money to
being someone who thinks abouthow that money can grow, whether
I'm in the room or not?
Lynne (02:25):
Ooh, Patty, I love that question.
I was about to take a diversiondown that road.
But I actually want to connectthe dots between the questions
that Dan asked and the questionsyou just asked, which is, you
know, why is it hard for somepeople to admit they're
interested in having more money?
Why do some of us get sosqueamish about it and feel
(02:47):
hesitant to say things like,show me the money?
Dan (02:51):
I love that we're leaning into the Jerry Maguire thing.
So squeamishness about money isa real thing.
And it gets me thinking abouthow I prepared for today's
episode.
I literally went back ontoYouTube and I re-watched the
show me the money scene fromJerry Maguire like three or four
times.
And on probably the fourth timewatching it, I noticed something
I had overlooked the firstcouple times.
(03:13):
So for those who haven't seenthe movie, Cuba Gooding Jr.'s
character is on the phone withJerry Maguire, played by Tom
Cruise, and he says, This is afamily motto, and then the
famous line, show me the money.
And then, then it getsinteresting because here's what
I didn't notice before.
He asks Jerry a great question.
He says, Show me the money.
And then he says, Doesn't itmake you feel good just to say
(03:34):
that?
And I mean, wow, talk about aquestion we should ask when we
talk about money.
Doesn't it feel good just to saythat?
Patti (03:42):
Oh, Dan.
Okay, I'm gonna steal yourthunder and I'm gonna bring up a
topic you usually bring up,which is gender, right?
So I have to admit that you'rehelping me see that scene in a
such a different lens that I'membarrassed I didn't see it
before.
Because how does it feel from agender perspective?
(04:05):
It feels squeamish.
Let's bring that word back in,right?
It's really, and you know, youfolks who are listening cannot
see Lynn nodding her head,right?
We're both bobbleheading herebecause we as women, aren't we
conditioned, right?
And then I get asked to dothings for free all the time, to
go on stages, to, to take my owntime, to share my 25 years of
(04:28):
earned, like, you know, schoolof hard knock sharings for free.
And I have just started to go,I'll do one of those a quarter,
but you gotta show me the money.
And I have to tell you, as longas I've been in business and
it's a lot easier for me to getmoney for someone or something
else, it's really hard for me todo it myself.
(04:51):
And I'm sitting here listeningto you, Dan, and listening,
remembering that interaction,and go, why is that so hard for
me?
Lynne (04:57):
Yeah, Patty, I'm right there with you.
So much so that I rewrote showme the money to be something
else.
I was like, how about we saymake it rain?
And then I thought, no one knowswhat that means.
Like, what?
Where's the money in make itrain?
That just sounds like I'm gonnaneed an umbrella.
(05:17):
So it's a really good question.
Why is women, at least you andme, right?
N of two, feel squeamish aboutsaying show me the money, about
saying it out loud.
And you know what?
When they say it out loud, showme the money, it does feel good.
So, what would happen if womenstarted saying, show me the
(05:42):
money more often?
What if we didn't give somethingaway for free, even once a
quarter?
Dan (05:48):
Yeah, I think and in that movie, it was even in the
context of two men talking toeach other, it was still sort of
a countercultural moment wherehe said, show me the money and
was was open about it, wasexplicit and clear about it.
Uh, but I do agree that that thesentiment matters more than the
specific words.
If make it rain, which I thinkis from a different movie, uh,
or some other phrase worksbetter, great.
(06:09):
I I think this concept of beingwilling to express the interest
uh in getting paid for the workthat we do, I think is an
important one.
But it makes me think about theconcept of uh unpaid labor and
the concept of seeing moneyversus not seeing the money for
the work that we do.
(06:30):
So I'm including like raising afamily and everything that goes
in that unpaid labor category,all kind of the important work
that creates value but doesn'tlead to an invoice that results
in a paycheck.
So, why do we tend to treat thatwork as less important just
because it doesn't includeshowing anybody any money,
right?
So, how can we learn to see itdifferently, maybe, is the
(06:52):
question here.
Both the unpaid work we do, theunpaid work that other people
do, and is there a way that wecould honor that work even if it
never earns a penny?
Lynne (07:02):
Yes.
I mean, I'm just yes.
I guess I'm stuck with wantingto try and answer that question,
Dan, even though I know that'snot the point of this podcast.
How might we?
How might we like truly honorthat unpaid work?
And and I think probably the onethat comes to mind the most is
women, well, people, often it'swomen, people who stay home with
(07:25):
children.
Um, and that is an unpaid laborjob.
And actually, even if you go andmake money during the day, then
you're home working your secondshift or your third shift, not
getting paid.
Uh, and you know, going tobrunch on Mother's Day once a
year does not count as showingme the money.
(07:46):
So I think it's a really goodquestion and one that, you know,
we're not going to answer, butwould love to have more people
think about.
Patti (07:54):
Yeah, I agree.
I think, you know, when I thinkabout that, and I know we need
to move on for topics, but it'sso important is does money and
being paid money equate tovalue?
And when we go to, you know,like in my world, it's premium
pricing, right?
You know, and and there if youare paying a premium, it's
(08:16):
because that thing is perceivedto have more value to the person
like who is receiving it.
And so when I think about that,Lynn, right, when I think about
the three shifts that womenwork, right?
The maintenance of thehousehold, you know, their day,
their day job, and then thatthey are constantly having to do
more, learn more, right?
To just be in the room.
And yet we are continuing to beunderpaid, which brings me to
(08:41):
the next topic, if we can jumpin.
And so much of our podcast comesback to happiness, right?
And if I don't feel valued, Idon't feel happy.
And we are, we do think a lotand we're told a lot about and
asked the question does moneybuy happiness?
And the the rich guy in theworld, we all know who he is.
(09:04):
He just, you know, offered topay TSA, um, TSA employees who
aren't getting who aren'tgetting paid.
That, you know, can't can'thappen.
But it was interesting, Lynn.
I think it was you who told methat, you know, he doesn't
believe money can buy happiness.
And that's the richest man inthe world who said that, who
likes money.
(09:24):
Of course, I want to go, great,transfer the money out of your
bank account and send it to me.
Let's see how happy you are.
But it also reminds me of 25years of doing gender equity
work of all of the maleexecutives who have looked
across, I talked about in mybook, Disruptors, looked across
the table to me and said, Well,it's an only 5% differential,
that's not bad.
And my response is great, thengive me your 5%.
(09:45):
How happy are you now?
Right.
So, you know, I I thinkseriously though, when we think
about does money buy happiness,that's probably not the right
question.
But there's a guy, um, DanKahneman, um, and he published
some research.
Now, take take just keep in mindthis was back in 2010, but he
(10:07):
said that people um make acertain amount of money, and
after that amount of money, ityou you can't buy more
happiness, right?
So his threshold was 75k.
I don't know what that would bein today's world, 150.
I don't know the inflationrates, right?
But he's saying if you made overthat baseline, probably of being
able to have a home and youknow, not worry paycheck to
(10:28):
paycheck, that it won't increaseyour happiness if you go over
that, right?
And so my question is, is thattrue?
Right?
Like, did he get that right?
Dan (10:39):
Yeah, it's such an interesting question.
And I love that somebody youknow back in 2010 did some
research and did somecalculations and says, you know,
if you're below this threshold,more money does make you
happier, or and beyond thatthreshold, more money doesn't
make you happier.
And uh their research has beenanalyzed and debated, as as all
research tends to be.
But that gets me wondering like,if you're just a miserable
(11:00):
person to start with, doeshaving money make you less
miserable?
And really, I think what I'masking is whether money gets to
the underlying things that makeus unhappy.
Like if I can't afford food,that would make me sad.
And so having money would makeme happier, yes.
But if I don't have friends,that would also make me sad, and
more money wouldn't necessarilyfix that, above or below that
(11:22):
$75,000 threshold that DanielKahneman found out.
Uh like if I suddenly won thelottery, I don't think I would
suddenly have a lot more realfriends, would I?
Lynne (11:31):
Not real friends.
Patty and I would still be yourfriends.
Dan (11:37):
For sure.
I will share my lottery winningswith you both.
Lynne (11:40):
It is fascinating that so many discussions about money are
actually discussions abouthappiness like we've just been
having, or they becomediscussions about happiness.
Now, why is that?
And and how does this enoughidea factor in as well?
What is enough money?
What is enough happiness?
Can you have too much happiness?
(12:03):
Like, can you have too muchmoney?
And I think this conversation isalso making me think, maybe just
because of the enough, aboutwhen I worked with multiple
community-based health plans whoserved people getting health
care via Medicaid.
One of the things the Medicaidmembers told us over and over
again was that yes, food trucks,food banks, prescriptions for
(12:27):
fruit, all of the things thatthe health plans were trying to
help people eat healthier onfixed incomes, those were nice.
But the real issue was poverty.
And wasn't that what we shouldbe getting working on?
And so it got me thinking aboutwhat it truly means to lead
generously, have an open mindabout what people actually need
(12:50):
in the context of money.
Dan (12:52):
Yeah, so you're right.
I think maybe one of thequestions we should be asking
here when we talk about money iswhether we're really talking
about money or whether we'retalking about something else,
something that's related, thatmoney's a proxy for.
Patti (13:06):
I I love this.
Um, this podcast episode is whatare the questions we should be
asking about money?
And I'm hearing you two andgoing, wait a minute, is that
really what we're focused on?
Right.
And that's so unique with thisepisode and the episode that we
did about disinformation andmisinformation, where we're
like, wait a minute, are wetalking about information?
Are we talking about truth?
Right?
Are those two things separate orare they the same?
(13:29):
And so it just makes me wonderwith money, like, are we really
talking about money?
Because then you use the termhappiness, right?
As much, if not more, than youuse the term money.
I found myself doing that,right?
In value.
And Dan, the same with you.
So, like, what is it?
Just following your Medicaidexample and you know, other
(13:50):
examples that you guys haveshared, what is it about money
that makes it stand in for otherthings?
Lynne (13:58):
Yes, yes.
Essentially, what is money aproxy for?
Like, what does it represent?
What is it a stand-in for?
And what if we talked aboutthose things, the real things,
like fear, safety rather thanmoney?
Dan (14:17):
Right.
Fear, safety, poverty.
I think poverty is a differenttopic than money.
I think they are related.
And so to go back to the JerryMaguire thing, the phrase show
me the money in that scene, Ithink it was really about
respect, right?
He might as well have beensaying, show me the respect.
It was about confidence.
I'm showing you my confidence.
It was maybe about security.
And so maybe it was onlyperipherally about money, kind
(14:38):
of as a proxy, like you weresaying.
So now I'm wondering, was myopening question incorrect when
I said, hey, we all know whatmoney is, right?
Because maybe we don't.
What if what if money isn'tmoney?
Lynne (14:52):
Well, it wouldn't be listening for the questions if
we didn't get a little meta.
So I love that, Dan.
And again, you know, we've we'vesort of really talked about this
Jerry McGuire example.
Uh, but the other thing youpointed out that Cuba Gooding
Jr.
says is this is a family thing.
Uh, and this is a family saying.
(15:12):
And so I want to pivot a littlebit on that and ask you two and
our listeners are, you know,what are your earliest memories
that involve money?
Like, when was the first timeyou became aware that money was
a thing?
When did we learn that money isor is not something we are
(15:32):
supposed to have?
I'm I'm guessing that you didnot have Cuba Gooding Jr.
as your father, teaching youthat thing from the get-go.
But maybe I'm wrong.
Patti (15:40):
Whatever your concept of money and your feelings about
it, not your thoughts, yourfeelings, which then lead to
your thoughts.
Like, where did that conceptcome from?
Right.
And to your point, Lynn.
Like, as a kid, like, let'sreally think about question,
what did you believe about moneywhen you were a child?
And were the where did thoseconcepts come from?
(16:00):
And as I'm listening to you,Lynn, I'm going, wait a minute,
nature versus nurture, right?
So we're conditioned to believethings based on the environments
that we were formed in, right?
Those formative years.
And then what reinforced thosethings moving forward?
And it's it's so interesting.
And like, do you know anybodywho doesn't have judgment when
(16:24):
it comes around money, right?
Like doesn't have a feeling, youknow, or you know, like uh who
has it and who doesn't have itkind of opinion.
So like when we look at certainworking class backgrounds,
people with money are nottrusted, right?
They've done something bad.
Um, certain backgrounds, like inthe world we're living in now,
people with money get a blankcheck literally for everything
(16:46):
because they're seen as better.
But like it's not necessarilywhat people are thinking, Lynn
and Dan, when I listen to you,it's why and the how they got
there in the first place.
And my next question is, and canit change?
Dan (16:59):
Oh, yes.
This has me trying to rememberlike, what were some of the
first things that I did to earnmoney?
Earn like my own money, not anallowance from my parents.
And then that makes me think: when was the first time you (17:08):
undefined
became aware of economicinequality?
Whether it was like an awarenessthat some people have more than
than you and your family, orawareness that some people have
less than you and your family.
When do we become aware of that?
And how did that feel?
Either to be on either side ofthat more or less.
(17:29):
And how does that then affectour decisions and our attitudes
and our actions when it comes tomoney?
Lynne (17:36):
Yeah, I definitely remember becoming aware of that
inequality pretty early age,both in terms of having more and
having less.
And I not to minimize this, butI can distinctly remember, you
know, guess jeans and wantingguest jeans.
And my mom's like, no way, thoseare so expensive.
(17:57):
Why would we spend the money onthat?
And but that was a thing, right?
And that was kind of a markerabout for everyone to see who
had more and who had less.
Um which makes me even start tothink more about economic
inequality.
Like, oh, why is it a thing?
Why does it exist?
Why do we tolerate it?
(18:19):
I think that's a question a lotof people have been asking for a
long time, and we don't have ananswer.
Dan (18:24):
Yeah, and you might have heard uh Billie Eilish recently
asked a room full of ratherwealthy people if you're a
billionaire, why are you abillionaire?
I think it's a great question,and I'm pretty sure that means
she listens to our show.
Lynne (18:37):
Well, if she doesn't yet, she will be now.
Hi, Billy Eilish.
Dan (18:41):
Thanks for listening.
Lynne (18:44):
I do think I know at least part of the answer around
this conversation we've beenhaving with inequality and
money.
It relates to power.
Uh, money maybe doesn't buyhappiness, as we've talked
about, but it does appear to buypower.
Uh, maybe one day we can alsoask questions about whether a
universal basic income programwill ever actually be a thing.
Patti (19:06):
Yeah, for sure.
And and I'm with you, Lynn,right?
When I think about there's areason why if a law is broken or
something happens, it's alwaysfollow the money.
There is a reason why the WorldEconomic Forum focuses in on
always follow the money, becausewhere there's money that equates
to power.
And does power equal happiness?
Now, these are all reallyinteresting combos, right?
(19:27):
For another, another episode.
But you know, just in kind ofwrapping this up around the
origins and thinking about ourmoney origins and how we talked
about money growing up, do thosestill hold true for you today,
right?
So how you were taught to thinkand feel and talk about money is
that reflect, and for me, I'mgonna tell you it's not.
And I can ask myself why, andand I know why, right?
(19:51):
What I grew up with at veryworking class, I too remember
very early on being called out,like my, you know, you have to
pay for CCD.
My mother had to pay ininstallments and the teacher
telling everybody in the firstgrade about that.
And it was awful.
Yeah, it was awful.
And so it was really this, like,oh, you know, this this feeling.
So when I think about am Idifferent and how I talk about
(20:15):
it, and I ask myself why, I haveto ask myself, do I think and
talk about money differently?
Because I now am presented withdifferent viewpoints on money
because I have more of it and Ihave more access.
And yes, that access gives mepower.
And then the other thing that Iam thinking about is who I talk
(20:36):
to about money.
Because we didn't, you know, youkeep that stuff inside your
house, right?
You don't talk about money, andyet I'm finding myself talking
pretty freely about money andpretty freely about having it
and not having it, and you know,you know, the universal pay and
all of that stuff.
Whereas in my upbringing, I didnot.
And so, you know, I have to ask,is it because I have had
(20:58):
exposure based on the goodfortune of the career and then
the people I get access to whowere raised differently on the
topic of money?
Dan (21:08):
Yeah.
So speaking of differences, uh,Patty, I know you already
started us on the gender andequity questions early on, but
I've got a few to add uh on thetopic of gender and differences
as well.
So, first, do men and women askdifferent questions about money?
And then are we told differentthings about money?
And then if we're askingdifferent questions and being
told different things, do menand women then land in different
(21:31):
places when they're thinking andplanning about money?
Lynne (21:35):
Yeah, maybe I'm not sure if men and women ask different
questions about money.
Although for anybody who everplayed a mother against a
father, there's probablydifferent beliefs about money.
Um, I do think it goes back tothe environment in which people
grew up talking about money.
Many Gen Xers, like we all are,the three of us, likely grew up
(21:58):
with parents who Grown up in theshadow of the Great Depression,
which probably really impactedhow they related to money.
Um, and I do think, just gettingback to the women-men question
that you asked, Dan, I thinkwomen historically have
negotiated about moneydifferently than men.
It's why there are so manysalary negotiate negotiation
(22:21):
programs for women, which makesme wonder you know, what did we
learn about money from watchingthe women in our family?
And who gets called ambitiousfor wanting more money?
And who gets called greedy?
Patti (22:37):
Oh, God, I love these questions, which of course I
think about more, you know,demographic changes, right?
So, like, what about people fromdifferent socioeconomic
backgrounds and circumstances,and you know, people who started
with nothing at all and earnedtheir money like I did, versus
people who inherited theirwealth, right?
(22:58):
Did they think differently, talkdifferently, feel differently
about money?
And what about the people whoexperienced the extreme loss of
money?
Right.
I know in my own experience andwhat's been handed down
generation to generation of mygrandmother, my grandfather,
their families having everythingtaken away from them, not just
(23:20):
money, of course, but everythingtaken away from them in 1915
with the Armenian genocide.
And, you know, listening as weprep for this and listening to
you talk and go, I can't thinkof one part of how I feel and
thought about money that was notinformed by that.
And quite frankly, my fear ofmoney.
(23:42):
And so, like, I just I thesethere are so many questions we
should be asking.
And that is for me, just atakeaway from me is wow, really
wow.
Dan (23:53):
Right.
The fear of money.
Why is money scary in somecases?
And I think there's also thisexpectation, maybe building on
some of that fear, particularlyin America, there's an
expectation that we'll make moremoney than our parents.
And there's an expectation thatevery family is just on the same
upward trajectory indefinitelyand infinitely.
Why do so many of us seem tothink that?
(24:13):
Is that a reasonableexpectation?
How many families actually doexperience that and have that
happen?
And then what happens when thetrajectory reverses?
Back to your fear question,Matty.
Patti (24:24):
Yeah, it's it's true.
And now let's bring in anotherelement of fear because you know
I'm going to, and that's goingto be all about our two favorite
letters, AI, right?
And we know because we believeit, we've seen it, we've read
it, read it, including that NewYork Times article last
November, which I know many ofus have cited, including me,
(24:45):
that the AI boom is driving theeconomy.
What happens if it falters?
And many of us have said, notif, when it falters.
So maybe the question I, youknow, should start asking myself
or we should start thinkingabout is what's the relationship
between AI and money?
Lynne (25:08):
I love that question.
And I'm I'm really curious aboutyou know why AI is responsible
for so much economic growthright now.
Is it sustainable?
Is it real?
I mean, you think about so manybooms and what tends to follow
them, right?
Bust.
Uh, so is this AI boomsustainable and real?
(25:33):
And why is it happening?
Dan (25:35):
Yeah, you know, I think a lot of the investment that I'm
seeing is in infrastructureright now, so building big data
centers.
And whenever I read about that,I always wonder how many people
remember the telecom bubble thatburst around 2000, 2001.
So there's all these companiesmaking massive investments in
fiber optics and saying, oh, theinternet changes everything, the
old rules don't apply anymore.
(25:55):
We can just continue buildingthis indefinitely and the
economics will work outeventually.
And then it all collapsed.
So, what are the lessons that weshould be learning from that
era?
And more importantly, what arethe implications if we don't
learn them?
Lynne (26:10):
I'm just gonna pause so people can ponder that question.
We're not gonna answer it, butit's a biggie Dan.
So I knew we were gonna talkabout AI, because we always talk
about AI on this show.
And so I asked my AI, youlong-term listeners know I call
her Maud, uh, about what are thequestions that I should be
(26:31):
asking about money?
And she asked, humans inventedmoney.
So, why does it feel like moneyhas power over humans rather
than the other way around?
Such a good question.
She also asked, What wouldchange if everyone knew exactly
(26:52):
what everyone else earned?
I love this question.
And this is an area where I dothink generations are different.
Patti (26:59):
I I'm gonna sit with that question that humans invented
money, so why does it feel likemoney has power over humans
rather than the other wayaround?
Darn you, Maud.
I mean, that is absolutelybrilliant.
And I do want to just put in alittle plug.
So I was part of a group ofpeople in uh the state of
(27:20):
Massachusetts that got a billpassed um a few years ago that
makes it legal for employees toshare how much they make with
each other and talk about takingaway power from the employer
when that happens, right?
So it's so interesting, andwe're not doing that enough.
(27:40):
And it's also very interestingto me as I was going through
that process and asking myself,why are some people embarrassed
by the money that they make ifthey are doing a comparable job
to someone else making moremoney?
Why is that guilt sitting withthem versus with the HR
department?
Um, so you know, let's talkabout this a little bit more of
a macro perspective, right?
(28:01):
So when it comes to the impactsof gross domestic product,
right?
The the money we make inside ofthe lines of where we live and
gross national, right?
Like what the things that we canexport out of a country, how it
impacts us as individuals.
When we think about that, likeshould the question be like we
(28:21):
talked about before, likefollowing the money and like
what that represents when we do,right?
Is it power?
Is it dominance?
Is it freedom?
I think we can all answer thesequestions, right?
But we really do need to beasking them.
We can point at other people andsay, we believe this is what it
means to them, greed, power,blah, blah, blah.
But we should be pointing atourselves as well.
(28:44):
And what does that mean, right?
People who may be good peopleare looking at a$50,000, you
know, bonus to sign up for ice.
What does that tell you?
Right?
People would rather not beunemployed, they'd rather have
money in the bank, they'd ratherput food on the table, but at
what cost, right?
And, you know, as I'm thinkingthrough this, I'm realizing how
(29:05):
hard it is for me to askquestions about money without
assuming human emotion to itsmeaning, like ice, right?
And what brings us back tosquare one, like is this
question is just a more personalrun, is like, what is the role
money plays in my life and Lynn?
Going back to what Maud askedyou, am I allowing that to have
(29:27):
power over me versus me havepower over it?
And that might be the centralquestion.
I really think that's important.
Dan (29:34):
Yeah, well, I love it.
And you know, I'm struck thatwhen we talk about people's
personal financial situations,we often use terms like doing
well or in the comparative doingbetter than.
Like if someone's making a lotof money, we don't say they're
doing well financially, we justsay they're doing well.
And people fill in financiallyas if those two just
automatically go together.
I think that language choicereally highlights how central
(29:57):
money is to our view of successand happiness and all of that.
And that makes me wonder whatwould happen if we changed our
language around money andbroadened our understanding of
well-being.
And then despite this entireconversation, why do I still
want to jump up and shout, showme the money?
Patti (30:13):
I'm gonna answer that because you didn't let me answer
a question today.
Um, I think it's because itfeels good, Dan.
Like looking at you and Lynn andeven myself when we have said
show me the money, we're allsmiling when we do it.
Like it's joy-inducing for somereason.
And Lynn, you know, it kind ofreminds me of what your response
was in the beginning.
(30:33):
Like, it just feels good.
Why does it feel good, right?
And who gets to feel good aboutthat?
So I love it.
Lynne (30:38):
And I love it too.
And I'm sad, but that's our timefor today.
What a great set of questions weask today about money.
Like, what is enough?
What is enough money, happiness,power?
What is enough AI?
And what questions should I beasking about my origin story and
(30:59):
how it is impacting me now?
Patti (31:02):
I'm not embarrassed to say that my takeaway here comes
from Lynn's best friend, Maud.
And that is really me wonderingwhat is the role money plays in
my life?
And am I allowing money to havepower over me versus me having
power over money?
Dan (31:18):
I think my big takeaway is the question
talking about when we talk aboutmoney?
I think it's possible to havetoo much money.
I don't think it's possible tohave too much happiness.
And so that's that's where I'mgoing for.
Show me the money, but onlyenough to maintain happiness.
And beyond that, I want to giveit away.
Patti (31:37):
Dan, that's why you're such a good guy.
Dan (31:39):
So thanks for listening, folks.
Today's episode was sponsored byhappiness because when we're
talking about money, isn't thatwhat we're really talking about?
Patti (31:46):
Our music was composed by Jake Cuprinol.
Our cover art was created byMatt.
Hello and welcome back to Listening for the Questions.
I'm Dr.
Patty Fletcher.
I'm a recovering C-suiteexecutive from Big Tech, a
leadership futurist working atthe intersection of people,
business, technology, and data,a best-selling author, and the
granddaughter of genocidesurvivors.
Today's episode is a topic thattouches on all of that: the
(00:36):
tech, the people, the books, andthe emotions we hold inherent
and pass down to the nextgeneration.
Dan (00:43):
Hey everybody, my name is Dan Ward.
I'm an engineer and a militarytechnologist.
I'm also an author, a juggler,and a punk.
And I spent most of myprofessional career in the
military and working at anonprofit.
And yes, even in those spaces,we spent a lot of time talking
about today's topic.
Lynne (00:58):
And I'm Lane Cuppernall.
I'm a leadership coach and ahealthcare consultant.
I'm also a triathlete.
And as a triathlete, I know howto do hard things.
And that includes talking abouttoday's topic.
Like Dan, I've spent most of myprofessional career in nonprofit
organizations.
But that doesn't mean we didn'ttalk about what we're going to
(01:18):
talk about today, whichdrumroll, that was a big
buildup, is money.
And specifically, what are thequestions we should ask when we
talk about money?
Dan (01:29):
Sometimes we start these podcasts by defining our terms,
like what is the differencebetween loneliness and being
alone?
Or what even is misinformation?
And I don't think we need to dothat today, right?
Because everybody knows whatmoney is, probably.
So the first question I want toask is: why do so many people
find it so hard to talk aboutmoney?
(01:50):
What is it about money thatmakes it such a fraught topic to
ask questions about?
Patti (01:55):
Let me be a little selfish here and go back to
Jerry Maguire and shout it,shout it from the rooftops.
Show me the money, people.
So look, I always want to knowhow do I get more money?
And what I'm really bad at andhave been asking since, you
know, I really thought aboutmoney is how do I stop going
(02:17):
from being someone who thinksabout only earning money to
being someone who thinks abouthow that money can grow, whether
I'm in the room or not?
Lynne (02:25):
Ooh, Patty, I love that question.
I was about to take a diversiondown that road.
But I actually want to connectthe dots between the questions
that Dan asked and the questionsyou just asked, which is, you
know, why is it hard for somepeople to admit they're
interested in having more money?
Why do some of us get sosqueamish about it and feel
(02:47):
hesitant to say things like,show me the money?
Dan (02:51):
I love that we're leaning into the Jerry Maguire thing.
So squeamishness about money isa real thing.
And it gets me thinking abouthow I prepared for today's
episode.
I literally went back ontoYouTube and I re-watched the
show me the money scene fromJerry Maguire like three or four
times.
And on probably the fourth timewatching it, I noticed something
I had overlooked the firstcouple times.
(03:13):
So for those who haven't seenthe movie, Cuba Gooding Jr.'s
character is on the phone withJerry Maguire, played by Tom
Cruise, and he says, This is afamily motto, and then the
famous line, show me the money.
And then, then it getsinteresting because here's what
I didn't notice before.
He asks Jerry a great question.
He says, Show me the money.
And then he says, Doesn't itmake you feel good just to say
(03:34):
that?
And I mean, wow, talk about aquestion we should ask when we
talk about money.
Doesn't it feel good just to saythat?
Patti (03:42):
Oh, Dan.
Okay, I'm gonna steal yourthunder and I'm gonna bring up a
topic you usually bring up,which is gender, right?
So I have to admit that you'rehelping me see that scene in a
such a different lens that I'membarrassed I didn't see it
before.
Because how does it feel from agender perspective?
(04:05):
It feels squeamish.
Let's bring that word back in,right?
It's really, and you know, youfolks who are listening cannot
see Lynn nodding her head,right?
We're both bobbleheading herebecause we as women, aren't we
conditioned, right?
And then I get asked to dothings for free all the time, to
go on stages, to, to take my owntime, to share my 25 years of
(04:28):
earned, like, you know, schoolof hard knock sharings for free.
And I have just started to go,I'll do one of those a quarter,
but you gotta show me the money.
And I have to tell you, as longas I've been in business and
it's a lot easier for me to getmoney for someone or something
else, it's really hard for me todo it myself.
(04:51):
And I'm sitting here listeningto you, Dan, and listening,
remembering that interaction,and go, why is that so hard for
me?
Lynne (04:57):
Yeah, Patty, I'm right there with you.
So much so that I rewrote showme the money to be something
else.
I was like, how about we saymake it rain?
And then I thought, no one knowswhat that means.
Like, what?
Where's the money in make itrain?
That just sounds like I'm gonnaneed an umbrella.
(05:17):
So it's a really good question.
Why is women, at least you andme, right?
N of two, feel squeamish aboutsaying show me the money, about
saying it out loud.
And you know what?
When they say it out loud, showme the money, it does feel good.
So, what would happen if womenstarted saying, show me the
(05:42):
money more often?
What if we didn't give somethingaway for free, even once a
quarter?
Dan (05:48):
Yeah, I think and in that movie, it was even in the
context of two men talking toeach other, it was still sort of
a countercultural moment wherehe said, show me the money and
was was open about it, wasexplicit and clear about it.
Uh, but I do agree that that thesentiment matters more than the
specific words.
If make it rain, which I thinkis from a different movie, uh,
or some other phrase worksbetter, great.
(06:09):
I I think this concept of beingwilling to express the interest
uh in getting paid for the workthat we do, I think is an
important one.
But it makes me think about theconcept of uh unpaid labor and
the concept of seeing moneyversus not seeing the money for
the work that we do.
(06:30):
So I'm including like raising afamily and everything that goes
in that unpaid labor category,all kind of the important work
that creates value but doesn'tlead to an invoice that results
in a paycheck.
So, why do we tend to treat thatwork as less important just
because it doesn't includeshowing anybody any money,
right?
So, how can we learn to see itdifferently, maybe, is the
(06:52):
question here.
Both the unpaid work we do, theunpaid work that other people
do, and is there a way that wecould honor that work even if it
never earns a penny?
Lynne (07:02):
Yes.
I mean, I'm just yes.
I guess I'm stuck with wantingto try and answer that question,
Dan, even though I know that'snot the point of this podcast.
How might we?
How might we like truly honorthat unpaid work?
And and I think probably the onethat comes to mind the most is
women, well, people, often it'swomen, people who stay home with
(07:25):
children.
Um, and that is an unpaid laborjob.
And actually, even if you go andmake money during the day, then
you're home working your secondshift or your third shift, not
getting paid.
Uh, and you know, going tobrunch on Mother's Day once a
year does not count as showingme the money.
(07:46):
So I think it's a really goodquestion and one that, you know,
we're not going to answer, butwould love to have more people
think about.
Patti (07:54):
Yeah, I agree.
I think, you know, when I thinkabout that, and I know we need
to move on for topics, but it'sso important is does money and
being paid money equate tovalue?
And when we go to, you know,like in my world, it's premium
pricing, right?
You know, and and there if youare paying a premium, it's
(08:16):
because that thing is perceivedto have more value to the person
like who is receiving it.
And so when I think about that,Lynn, right, when I think about
the three shifts that womenwork, right?
The maintenance of thehousehold, you know, their day,
their day job, and then thatthey are constantly having to do
more, learn more, right?
To just be in the room.
And yet we are continuing to beunderpaid, which brings me to
(08:41):
the next topic, if we can jumpin.
And so much of our podcast comesback to happiness, right?
And if I don't feel valued, Idon't feel happy.
And we are, we do think a lotand we're told a lot about and
asked the question does moneybuy happiness?
And the the rich guy in theworld, we all know who he is.
(09:04):
He just, you know, offered topay TSA, um, TSA employees who
aren't getting who aren'tgetting paid.
That, you know, can't can'thappen.
But it was interesting, Lynn.
I think it was you who told methat, you know, he doesn't
believe money can buy happiness.
And that's the richest man inthe world who said that, who
likes money.
(09:24):
Of course, I want to go, great,transfer the money out of your
bank account and send it to me.
Let's see how happy you are.
But it also reminds me of 25years of doing gender equity
work of all of the maleexecutives who have looked
across, I talked about in mybook, Disruptors, looked across
the table to me and said, Well,it's an only 5% differential,
that's not bad.
And my response is great, thengive me your 5%.
(09:45):
How happy are you now?
Right.
So, you know, I I thinkseriously though, when we think
about does money buy happiness,that's probably not the right
question.
But there's a guy, um, DanKahneman, um, and he published
some research.
Now, take take just keep in mindthis was back in 2010, but he
(10:07):
said that people um make acertain amount of money, and
after that amount of money, ityou you can't buy more
happiness, right?
So his threshold was 75k.
I don't know what that would bein today's world, 150.
I don't know the inflationrates, right?
But he's saying if you made overthat baseline, probably of being
able to have a home and youknow, not worry paycheck to
(10:28):
paycheck, that it won't increaseyour happiness if you go over
that, right?
And so my question is, is thattrue?
Right?
Like, did he get that right?
Dan (10:39):
Yeah, it's such an interesting question.
And I love that somebody youknow back in 2010 did some
research and did somecalculations and says, you know,
if you're below this threshold,more money does make you
happier, or and beyond thatthreshold, more money doesn't
make you happier.
And uh their research has beenanalyzed and debated, as as all
research tends to be.
But that gets me wondering like,if you're just a miserable
(11:00):
person to start with, doeshaving money make you less
miserable?
And really, I think what I'masking is whether money gets to
the underlying things that makeus unhappy.
Like if I can't afford food,that would make me sad.
And so having money would makeme happier, yes.
But if I don't have friends,that would also make me sad, and
more money wouldn't necessarilyfix that, above or below that
(11:22):
$75,000 threshold that DanielKahneman found out.
Uh like if I suddenly won thelottery, I don't think I would
suddenly have a lot more realfriends, would I?
Lynne (11:31):
Not real friends.
Patty and I would still be yourfriends.
Dan (11:37):
For sure.
I will share my lottery winningswith you both.
Lynne (11:40):
It is fascinating that so many discussions about money are
actually discussions abouthappiness like we've just been
having, or they becomediscussions about happiness.
Now, why is that?
And and how does this enoughidea factor in as well?
What is enough money?
What is enough happiness?
Can you have too much happiness?
(12:03):
Like, can you have too muchmoney?
And I think this conversation isalso making me think, maybe just
because of the enough, aboutwhen I worked with multiple
community-based health plans whoserved people getting health
care via Medicaid.
One of the things the Medicaidmembers told us over and over
again was that yes, food trucks,food banks, prescriptions for
(12:27):
fruit, all of the things thatthe health plans were trying to
help people eat healthier onfixed incomes, those were nice.
But the real issue was poverty.
And wasn't that what we shouldbe getting working on?
And so it got me thinking aboutwhat it truly means to lead
generously, have an open mindabout what people actually need
(12:50):
in the context of money.
Dan (12:52):
Yeah, so you're right.
I think maybe one of thequestions we should be asking
here when we talk about money iswhether we're really talking
about money or whether we'retalking about something else,
something that's related, thatmoney's a proxy for.
Patti (13:06):
I I love this.
Um, this podcast episode is whatare the questions we should be
asking about money?
And I'm hearing you two andgoing, wait a minute, is that
really what we're focused on?
Right.
And that's so unique with thisepisode and the episode that we
did about disinformation andmisinformation, where we're
like, wait a minute, are wetalking about information?
Are we talking about truth?
Right?
Are those two things separate orare they the same?
(13:29):
And so it just makes me wonderwith money, like, are we really
talking about money?
Because then you use the termhappiness, right?
As much, if not more, than youuse the term money.
I found myself doing that,right?
In value.
And Dan, the same with you.
So, like, what is it?
Just following your Medicaidexample and you know, other
(13:50):
examples that you guys haveshared, what is it about money
that makes it stand in for otherthings?
Lynne (13:58):
Yes, yes.
Essentially, what is money aproxy for?
Like, what does it represent?
What is it a stand-in for?
And what if we talked aboutthose things, the real things,
like fear, safety rather thanmoney?
Dan (14:17):
Right.
Fear, safety, poverty.
I think poverty is a differenttopic than money.
I think they are related.
And so to go back to the JerryMaguire thing, the phrase show
me the money in that scene, Ithink it was really about
respect, right?
He might as well have beensaying, show me the respect.
It was about confidence.
I'm showing you my confidence.
It was maybe about security.
And so maybe it was onlyperipherally about money, kind
(14:38):
of as a proxy, like you weresaying.
So now I'm wondering, was myopening question incorrect when
I said, hey, we all know whatmoney is, right?
Because maybe we don't.
What if what if money isn'tmoney?
Lynne (14:52):
Well, it wouldn't be listening for the questions if
we didn't get a little meta.
So I love that, Dan.
And again, you know, we've we'vesort of really talked about this
Jerry McGuire example.
Uh, but the other thing youpointed out that Cuba Gooding
Jr.
says is this is a family thing.
Uh, and this is a family saying.
(15:12):
And so I want to pivot a littlebit on that and ask you two and
our listeners are, you know,what are your earliest memories
that involve money?
Like, when was the first timeyou became aware that money was
a thing?
When did we learn that money isor is not something we are
(15:32):
supposed to have?
I'm I'm guessing that you didnot have Cuba Gooding Jr.
as your father, teaching youthat thing from the get-go.
But maybe I'm wrong.
Patti (15:40):
Whatever your concept of money and your feelings about
it, not your thoughts, yourfeelings, which then lead to
your thoughts.
Like, where did that conceptcome from?
Right.
And to your point, Lynn.
Like, as a kid, like, let'sreally think about question,
what did you believe about moneywhen you were a child?
And were the where did thoseconcepts come from?
(16:00):
And as I'm listening to you,Lynn, I'm going, wait a minute,
nature versus nurture, right?
So we're conditioned to believethings based on the environments
that we were formed in, right?
Those formative years.
And then what reinforced thosethings moving forward?
And it's it's so interesting.
And like, do you know anybodywho doesn't have judgment when
(16:24):
it comes around money, right?
Like doesn't have a feeling, youknow, or you know, like uh who
has it and who doesn't have itkind of opinion.
So like when we look at certainworking class backgrounds,
people with money are nottrusted, right?
They've done something bad.
Um, certain backgrounds, like inthe world we're living in now,
people with money get a blankcheck literally for everything
(16:46):
because they're seen as better.
But like it's not necessarilywhat people are thinking, Lynn
and Dan, when I listen to you,it's why and the how they got
there in the first place.
And my next question is, and canit change?
Dan (16:59):
Oh, yes.
This has me trying to rememberlike, what were some of the
first things that I did to earnmoney?
Earn like my own money, not anallowance from my parents.
And then that makes me think: when was the first time you (17:08):
undefined
became aware of economicinequality?
Whether it was like an awarenessthat some people have more than
than you and your family, orawareness that some people have
less than you and your family.
When do we become aware of that?
And how did that feel?
Either to be on either side ofthat more or less.
(17:29):
And how does that then affectour decisions and our attitudes
and our actions when it comes tomoney?
Lynne (17:36):
Yeah, I definitely remember becoming aware of that
inequality pretty early age,both in terms of having more and
having less.
And I not to minimize this, butI can distinctly remember, you
know, guess jeans and wantingguest jeans.
And my mom's like, no way, thoseare so expensive.
(17:57):
Why would we spend the money onthat?
And but that was a thing, right?
And that was kind of a markerabout for everyone to see who
had more and who had less.
Um which makes me even start tothink more about economic
inequality.
Like, oh, why is it a thing?
Why does it exist?
Why do we tolerate it?
(18:19):
I think that's a question a lotof people have been asking for a
long time, and we don't have ananswer.
Dan (18:24):
Yeah, and you might have heard uh Billie Eilish recently
asked a room full of ratherwealthy people if you're a
billionaire, why are you abillionaire?
I think it's a great question,and I'm pretty sure that means
she listens to our show.
Lynne (18:37):
Well, if she doesn't yet, she will be now.
Hi, Billy Eilish.
Dan (18:41):
Thanks for listening.
Lynne (18:44):
I do think I know at least part of the answer around
this conversation we've beenhaving with inequality and
money.
It relates to power.
Uh, money maybe doesn't buyhappiness, as we've talked
about, but it does appear to buypower.
Uh, maybe one day we can alsoask questions about whether a
universal basic income programwill ever actually be a thing.
Patti (19:06):
Yeah, for sure.
And and I'm with you, Lynn,right?
When I think about there's areason why if a law is broken or
something happens, it's alwaysfollow the money.
There is a reason why the WorldEconomic Forum focuses in on
always follow the money, becausewhere there's money that equates
to power.
And does power equal happiness?
Now, these are all reallyinteresting combos, right?
(19:27):
For another, another episode.
But you know, just in kind ofwrapping this up around the
origins and thinking about ourmoney origins and how we talked
about money growing up, do thosestill hold true for you today,
right?
So how you were taught to thinkand feel and talk about money is
that reflect, and for me, I'mgonna tell you it's not.
And I can ask myself why, andand I know why, right?
(19:51):
What I grew up with at veryworking class, I too remember
very early on being called out,like my, you know, you have to
pay for CCD.
My mother had to pay ininstallments and the teacher
telling everybody in the firstgrade about that.
And it was awful.
Yeah, it was awful.
And so it was really this, like,oh, you know, this this feeling.
So when I think about am Idifferent and how I talk about
(20:15):
it, and I ask myself why, I haveto ask myself, do I think and
talk about money differently?
Because I now am presented withdifferent viewpoints on money
because I have more of it and Ihave more access.
And yes, that access gives mepower.
And then the other thing that Iam thinking about is who I talk
(20:36):
to about money.
Because we didn't, you know, youkeep that stuff inside your
house, right?
You don't talk about money, andyet I'm finding myself talking
pretty freely about money andpretty freely about having it
and not having it, and you know,you know, the universal pay and
all of that stuff.
Whereas in my upbringing, I didnot.
And so, you know, I have to ask,is it because I have had
(20:58):
exposure based on the goodfortune of the career and then
the people I get access to whowere raised differently on the
topic of money?
Dan (21:08):
Yeah.
So speaking of differences, uh,Patty, I know you already
started us on the gender andequity questions early on, but
I've got a few to add uh on thetopic of gender and differences
as well.
So, first, do men and women askdifferent questions about money?
And then are we told differentthings about money?
And then if we're askingdifferent questions and being
told different things, do menand women then land in different
(21:31):
places when they're thinking andplanning about money?
Lynne (21:35):
Yeah, maybe I'm not sure if men and women ask different
questions about money.
Although for anybody who everplayed a mother against a
father, there's probablydifferent beliefs about money.
Um, I do think it goes back tothe environment in which people
grew up talking about money.
Many Gen Xers, like we all are,the three of us, likely grew up
(21:58):
with parents who Grown up in theshadow of the Great Depression,
which probably really impactedhow they related to money.
Um, and I do think, just gettingback to the women-men question
that you asked, Dan, I thinkwomen historically have
negotiated about moneydifferently than men.
It's why there are so manysalary negotiate negotiation
(22:21):
programs for women, which makesme wonder you know, what did we
learn about money from watchingthe women in our family?
And who gets called ambitiousfor wanting more money?
And who gets called greedy?
Patti (22:37):
Oh, God, I love these questions, which of course I
think about more, you know,demographic changes, right?
So, like, what about people fromdifferent socioeconomic
backgrounds and circumstances,and you know, people who started
with nothing at all and earnedtheir money like I did, versus
people who inherited theirwealth, right?
(22:58):
Did they think differently, talkdifferently, feel differently
about money?
And what about the people whoexperienced the extreme loss of
money?
Right.
I know in my own experience andwhat's been handed down
generation to generation of mygrandmother, my grandfather,
their families having everythingtaken away from them, not just
(23:20):
money, of course, but everythingtaken away from them in 1915
with the Armenian genocide.
And, you know, listening as weprep for this and listening to
you talk and go, I can't thinkof one part of how I feel and
thought about money that was notinformed by that.
And quite frankly, my fear ofmoney.
(23:42):
And so, like, I just I thesethere are so many questions we
should be asking.
And that is for me, just atakeaway from me is wow, really
wow.
Dan (23:53):
Right.
The fear of money.
Why is money scary in somecases?
And I think there's also thisexpectation, maybe building on
some of that fear, particularlyin America, there's an
expectation that we'll make moremoney than our parents.
And there's an expectation thatevery family is just on the same
upward trajectory indefinitelyand infinitely.
Why do so many of us seem tothink that?
(24:13):
Is that a reasonableexpectation?
How many families actually doexperience that and have that
happen?
And then what happens when thetrajectory reverses?
Back to your fear question,Matty.
Patti (24:24):
Yeah, it's it's true.
And now let's bring in anotherelement of fear because you know
I'm going to, and that's goingto be all about our two favorite
letters, AI, right?
And we know because we believeit, we've seen it, we've read
it, read it, including that NewYork Times article last
November, which I know many ofus have cited, including me,
(24:45):
that the AI boom is driving theeconomy.
What happens if it falters?
And many of us have said, notif, when it falters.
So maybe the question I, youknow, should start asking myself
or we should start thinkingabout is what's the relationship
between AI and money?
Lynne (25:08):
I love that question.
And I'm I'm really curious aboutyou know why AI is responsible
for so much economic growthright now.
Is it sustainable?
Is it real?
I mean, you think about so manybooms and what tends to follow
them, right?
Bust.
Uh, so is this AI boomsustainable and real?
(25:33):
And why is it happening?
Dan (25:35):
Yeah, you know, I think a lot of the investment that I'm
seeing is in infrastructureright now, so building big data
centers.
And whenever I read about that,I always wonder how many people
remember the telecom bubble thatburst around 2000, 2001.
So there's all these companiesmaking massive investments in
fiber optics and saying, oh, theinternet changes everything, the
old rules don't apply anymore.
(25:55):
We can just continue buildingthis indefinitely and the
economics will work outeventually.
And then it all collapsed.
So, what are the lessons that weshould be learning from that
era?
And more importantly, what arethe implications if we don't
learn them?
Lynne (26:10):
I'm just gonna pause so people can ponder that question.
We're not gonna answer it, butit's a biggie Dan.
So I knew we were gonna talkabout AI, because we always talk
about AI on this show.
And so I asked my AI, youlong-term listeners know I call
her Maud, uh, about what are thequestions that I should be
(26:31):
asking about money?
And she asked, humans inventedmoney.
So, why does it feel like moneyhas power over humans rather
than the other way around?
Such a good question.
She also asked, What wouldchange if everyone knew exactly
(26:52):
what everyone else earned?
I love this question.
And this is an area where I dothink generations are different.
Patti (26:59):
I I'm gonna sit with that question that humans invented
money, so why does it feel likemoney has power over humans
rather than the other wayaround?
Darn you, Maud.
I mean, that is absolutelybrilliant.
And I do want to just put in alittle plug.
So I was part of a group ofpeople in uh the state of
(27:20):
Massachusetts that got a billpassed um a few years ago that
makes it legal for employees toshare how much they make with
each other and talk about takingaway power from the employer
when that happens, right?
So it's so interesting, andwe're not doing that enough.
(27:40):
And it's also very interestingto me as I was going through
that process and asking myself,why are some people embarrassed
by the money that they make ifthey are doing a comparable job
to someone else making moremoney?
Why is that guilt sitting withthem versus with the HR
department?
Um, so you know, let's talkabout this a little bit more of
a macro perspective, right?
(28:01):
So when it comes to the impactsof gross domestic product,
right?
The the money we make inside ofthe lines of where we live and
gross national, right?
Like what the things that we canexport out of a country, how it
impacts us as individuals.
When we think about that, likeshould the question be like we
(28:21):
talked about before, likefollowing the money and like
what that represents when we do,right?
Is it power?
Is it dominance?
Is it freedom?
I think we can all answer thesequestions, right?
But we really do need to beasking them.
We can point at other people andsay, we believe this is what it
means to them, greed, power,blah, blah, blah.
But we should be pointing atourselves as well.
(28:44):
And what does that mean, right?
People who may be good peopleare looking at a$50,000, you
know, bonus to sign up for ice.
What does that tell you?
Right?
People would rather not beunemployed, they'd rather have
money in the bank, they'd ratherput food on the table, but at
what cost, right?
And, you know, as I'm thinkingthrough this, I'm realizing how
(29:05):
hard it is for me to askquestions about money without
assuming human emotion to itsmeaning, like ice, right?
And what brings us back tosquare one, like is this
question is just a more personalrun, is like, what is the role
money plays in my life and Lynn?
Going back to what Maud askedyou, am I allowing that to have
(29:27):
power over me versus me havepower over it?
And that might be the centralquestion.
I really think that's important.
Dan (29:34):
Yeah, well, I love it.
And you know, I'm struck thatwhen we talk about people's
personal financial situations,we often use terms like doing
well or in the comparative doingbetter than.
Like if someone's making a lotof money, we don't say they're
doing well financially, we justsay they're doing well.
And people fill in financiallyas if those two just
automatically go together.
I think that language choicereally highlights how central
(29:57):
money is to our view of successand happiness and all of that.
And that makes me wonder whatwould happen if we changed our
language around money andbroadened our understanding of
well-being.
And then despite this entireconversation, why do I still
want to jump up and shout, showme the money?
Patti (30:13):
I'm gonna answer that because you didn't let me answer
a question today.
Um, I think it's because itfeels good, Dan.
Like looking at you and Lynn andeven myself when we have said
show me the money, we're allsmiling when we do it.
Like it's joy-inducing for somereason.
And Lynn, you know, it kind ofreminds me of what your response
was in the beginning.
(30:33):
Like, it just feels good.
Why does it feel good, right?
And who gets to feel good aboutthat?
So I love it.
Lynne (30:38):
And I love it too.
And I'm sad, but that's our timefor today.
What a great set of questions weask today about money.
Like, what is enough?
What is enough money, happiness,power?
What is enough AI?
And what questions should I beasking about my origin story and
(30:59):
how it is impacting me now?
Patti (31:02):
I'm not embarrassed to say that my takeaway here comes
from Lynn's best friend, Maud.
And that is really me wonderingwhat is the role money plays in
my life?
And am I allowing money to havepower over me versus me having
power over money?
Dan (31:18):
I think my big takeaway is the question
talking about when we talk aboutmoney?
I think it's possible to havetoo much money.
I don't think it's possible tohave too much happiness.
And so that's that's where I'mgoing for.
Show me the money, but onlyenough to maintain happiness.
And beyond that, I want to giveit away.
Patti (31:37):
Dan, that's why you're such a good guy.
Dan (31:39):
So thanks for listening, folks.
Today's episode was sponsored byhappiness because when we're
talking about money, isn't thatwhat we're really talking about?
Patti (31:46):
Our music was composed by Jake Cuprinol.
Our cover art was created byMatt.
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