January 20, 2026 • 34 mins
We are surrounded by misinformation and disinformation, but reacting faster is not the solution. Asking better questions is.
In this episode, Patti Fletcher, Dan Ward, and Lynne Cuppernull explore the difference between misinformation shared without intent to harm and disinformation spread deliberately to deceive. More importantly, they examine why both work so well and what they reveal about fear, identity, trust, and belonging.
Drawing on the U.S. Surgeon General’s advisory Confronting Health Misinformation, the conversation frames misinformation as a public health issue that requires collective responsibility, not individual perfection. The episode also explores deeper meaning-making frameworks, including Richard Rohr’s work on Order, Disorder, and Reorder, and why periods of disruption create fertile ground for false certainty.
Along the way, the trio reflects on cultural touchstones like Schoolhouse Rock and ABC After School Specials and what we lost when we stopped teaching people how to think instead of what to think.
This episode is not about debunking. It is about slowing down, noticing our reactions, and asking better questions before belief hardens into certainty.
Resources mentioned
- Confronting Health Misinformation, U.S. Surgeon General
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-misinformation-advisory.pdf - Richard Rohr, The Cosmic Egg
https://cac.org/daily-meditations/the-cosmic-egg-my-story-and-our-story/ - The Wisdom Pattern: Order, Disorder, Reorder
https://store.cac.org/products/the-wisdom-pattern-order-disorder-reorder - Schoolhouse Rock
https://www.youtube.com/user/SchoolhouseRockTV1 - ABC After School Specials
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4_H2rkrpOuvXd-7hJoZBzIoUdo09NdnM
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lynne (00:14):
Welcome back to Listening for the Questions, the only
podcast in the whole world.
I'm Lynne Cupernull.
I'm a leadership coach and ahealthcare consultant, and I'm
also a triathlete.
You heard it here first.
The secret to my athleticsuccess is adding sugar to my
Gatorade.
I am so thrilled to be backonce again with my friends Patti
(00:36):
and Dan for another episode.
Dan (00:38):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the 1 millionth episode of
the most popular podcast inhistory.
My name is Dan Ward.
I'm an engineer and militarytechnologist and an author, a
juggler and a punk.
And fun fact, I have a patentedelixir that is guaranteed to
cure restless belly buttonsyndrome.
Patti (00:55):
Hello, you two and our listeners.
I'm Dr.
Patti Fletcher, and I canbarely get my intro out because
I'm over here giggling.
Um, so I'll give it a try.
I'm a recovering C-suiteexecutive from Big Tech.
I'm a leadership futuristworking at the intersection of
people, business, technology,and data, and I'm a best-selling
author.
And Dan and Lynne, based onwhat you both just said, I think
(01:16):
we're gonna have a lot ofEaster eggs in our episode
today.
Lynne, I love that.
Adding sugar to your Gatorade.
I just went to the dentist andI would love to see you have
that conversation with yourdentist and Dan.
Rest I can't even say it,restless belly buttons and
drama.
Dan (01:35):
It affects millions of people every year.
Patti (01:38):
It's great.
It's great.
Just look it up.
Um, and I'm pretty sure thereis some kind of a treatment we
can buy on Amazon.
The millionth episode.
You know what?
I'm gonna let that one fly.
You know, episode nine,whatever.
Million nine.
There we go.
Lynne (01:55):
Okay, Patti, you definitely caught me.
Uh, I don't even drinkGatorade, and adding sugar to it
is definitely not a good idea,unless maybe you're a shady
dentist recommending it to driveup your business.
Uh, and yes, other podcasts doexist, only about 10,000 of
them.
Dan (02:13):
And you're right, Patti.
Uh, restless belly buttonsyndrome is something I totally
made up.
So we just wanted to have alittle bit of fun as we
introduce our topic for today,which is misinformation and
disinformation.
Patti (02:24):
That's right.
And what are the questions weshould be asking when it comes
to misinformation anddisinformation?
And, you know, we've been insince really this advent of the
internet of things, we've beenin the information age where um
everything is about who knowswhat, right?
And and yes, everybody, I'mgonna bring up those two little
(02:48):
letters, AI.
Because when we think about theinformation age and information
and disinformation, AI is it'scomplicated.
So, what does that mean?
This episode, we're going toexplore what are the questions
we should be asking, becausethere is a lot to navigate.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, Patti, you're right.
There certainly is.
And I know we're going to talkabout AI later in the episode,
but maybe we start with theobvious question, which for me
is is there a difference betweendisinformation and
misinformation?
And if so, what is it?
Dan (03:24):
Yeah, Lynnee, I love that.
I think that's exactly theright question to open our
conversation with because uh Ithink there is a difference.
I think the differences matterboth in how we understand
misinformation anddisinformation, but also how we
engage with those topics.
And uh Patti, I know you havean answer here and are dying to
share it.
So we're gonna go ahead andgive you permission to answer
this question.
(03:45):
Patti, over to you.
What is the difference betweenmisinformation and
disinformation?
Patti (03:49):
Dan, I thought you'd never ask.
Dan (03:51):
I'm so happy.
Patti (03:53):
Okay.
So so the truth is, and I Ilove that you asked that
question, Lynne.
Like, is there a difference?
What is the difference?
And there are some commonlyheld definitions, but it almost
feels like rhetoric at thispoint because they feel they're
used um interchangeably and theyshouldn't, because there is a
difference.
So misinformation is it's justsimply incorrect information.
(04:15):
That's all it is.
And disinformation is when wedeliberately share incorrect
information.
One is a mistake, the other isin knowing, right, that we're
doing it.
And, you know, I think when wewere prepping for this episode,
and you know, I think it wasyou, Lynne, that said, isn't
that just lying?
And I'm I guess and no, andright, like I've all of all of
(04:38):
these kinds of different answersI would say.
And we are all mostly justgetting our information from a
screen in front of us, whetherit's a human being talking to
us, or we put something into aGoogle search, or we put
something into a GBT.
And so what happens is thatmisinformation and
disinformation, the originalmost doesn't matter, right?
Because we're taking that info,which is mostly subjective.
(05:01):
And when it's subjective, it'skind of tied to subjectivity.
We're careful with what weshare.
And that's all kind of gettingbrought together and built on
builds like this knowledge basethat in turn humans and machines
use to make decisions and takeactions and make
recommendations.
And in the information age,like, do we have an unrealistic
expectation that information andtruth should be synonymous?
(05:24):
So, as a side note, in mymarketing years, we would create
a document often referred to asthe single source of the truth.
And that document is used froma marketing organization's
perspective, as well as leadersand anyone who is out there
talking or writing things aroundwhat does this company do?
Right?
What's the problem that theysolve?
(05:45):
What do they believe abouttheir problem?
And looking at that document,it's simply a perspective
document, but we haveorganizational cultures that
that use here is ourperspective, and it is the only
source of the truth.
And we only speak and talk inthis way.
So, like, you know, I'mwondering, are there officials,
right?
(06:05):
Are there organizations thathave put a lot of thought into
this?
And and like, what are thethings that they're saying?
Dan (06:11):
Oh, that's a great question, Patti.
And uh when you use the termthe information age, that's a
term people have been using todescribe our current era for
quite a while.
And it makes me wonder who knewthat the information age would
become the disinformation ageand the misinformation age?
Uh, and at the risk ofanswering my own question, I
wonder if it was science fictionwriters.
(06:32):
You know, it reminds me of thatobservation that that good
science fiction doesn't justimagine the car, it imagines the
traffic jam.
And so I wonder, you know, whatare the the good sci-fi stories
out there uh that might getinto some of this, not just
information age, but imaginingthe mis and disinformation age,
essentially imagining thetraffic jam uh for this era.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Ooh, Dan, you made me think, I I really had not
thought about the origin ofmisinformation.
I think it goes back fartherthan science fiction.
I think about maybe one of thefirst books, uh, can be a little
controversial here.
Uh, there are some people whobelieve the Bible is a source of
(07:16):
truth.
There are other people whobelieve the Bible is just a
rollicking good yarn.
And there are other people whomay actually see the Bible as a
source of misinformation.
Um, and so I'm just thinkingabout how far back it goes and
this question of what's thetruth?
(07:37):
And does information equal thetruth?
I mean, I think Patti's pointis not anymore.
unknown (07:45):
Right.
Dan (07:45):
And so what if Information Age was always about the
misinformation anddisinformation and information
and distinguishing between whatis truth, which is one of the
questions that um ratherfamously is asked uh in in one
of the New Testament uh uhbooks.
What is what is truth?
Patti (08:02):
You know, it makes me think about postmodernist
philosophy.
And one of the belief systemsthat they have, or the core
belief system, um, is that thetruth is what you think it is,
right?
And my truth and your truthmight be different, and they're
both right and they're bothwrong.
And so we all, you know, comeinto this world in a unique way.
(08:25):
We experience even, even, youknow, my sisters and I, same
parents, right?
Same, same all that, but wecould not be more different
because our experience as beingtheir children and walking
through life is just simplydifferent.
So while we might look back ina shared memory, we each have
our own perspectives and they'reall true, right?
(08:46):
So everything is true.
And that's hard, right?
Is one of the challenges wehave as humans is, especially
now, um, is we we each want tobe right all of the time.
And being right means our truthis right.
And if my truth is right, thescarcity mindset means your
truth is wrong, versus, youknow, is there an abundance play
(09:07):
in here?
And then, you know, I think thething for me that really kind
of goes moves beyond the truthor in addition to the truth, is
what is the impact of theinformation?
Is it causing harm?
And when we think about some ofthe other things where
(09:29):
governing bodies have stepped inbecause something has been
causing harm and they put aregulation around it, like,
should we first start with like,is that right, is that the
right first question?
Right?
Is this causing harm?
And then get into themisinformation and
disinformation.
And I know I just brought up aregulatory thing, which you
know, I'm I'm wondering if youtwo go where I go, which is oh
(09:49):
my god, censorship, right?
Because then that doesdetermine who's right or wrong.
But but what do you think aboutthat?
Is that the right startingpoint question?
Dan (09:57):
Sure.
Patti, this is a greatquestion.
And it's I'm even sort ofwrestling in my head how to
fully frame the question, how toeven ask it.
Like, are some things true orsome things false?
Is there harm caused byinformation, independent of
truth or or falseness?
And so in 2021, the SurgeonGeneral did put out a report
titled Confronting HealthMisinformation.
(10:18):
Uh, and in that report, whichis terrific, and we'll put a
link in the show notes, uh,everybody should read this
report, it says, misinformationis harmful to individual and
public health because itpollutes the information
environment.
So this idea that informationcan harm public health, that it
can pollute the informationenvironment, is a really
interesting way of framing this.
(10:39):
And if we sort of lean intothat metaphor, I wonder how
might we all behave differentlyif we treat misinformation and
disinformation like we treatpollution?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And well, what if we already are treating it like
pollution to a degree?
So just like some factories,are we allowing certain
polluters to pump informationpollution into the environment,
even though it causes harm?
And are we restricting otherinformation polluters from
(11:12):
putting that information outthere?
Why are we holding everybodyresponsible and using the same
bar?
Patti (11:20):
It's all about the power, isn't it?
We are in the information age.
We wage wars over informationand knowledge now, not just
where we can get oil.
And so it makes me, you know,think about maybe one of the
questions that I should beasking, and I feel like this is
a common theme in our, you know,our podcast series is like who
(11:41):
benefits from this and what dothey get from it?
And the other thing I can'thelp but mention is okay, so is
there a governing body like theEPA that says this, these are
the regulations around pollutingpeople's brains and their
decision making withinformation?
And I have to say, even peopleargue with EPA regulations,
(12:04):
right?
That there are multiple, likescience schmiance, right?
So, and even some scientistskind of disagree with things.
So I don't even know what to dohere.
I I honestly have no idea whereto go beyond the questions I
have and going back to if it ismy truth, then it is my truth
that I come to thoseconclusions.
(12:25):
And does that just put us backinto the original, you know,
thing around information,disinformation?
And does the information pieceequate to truth?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I love that you brought it back to truth because
I do think um I have some morequestions around that.
I'm sitting with this idea ofmy truth, your truth, the real
truth, is it somewhere in themiddle?
And it's gotten me thinkingabout questions we should be
asking when we hear informationthat's counter to our truth.
(12:59):
And that's where I and ourbeliefs, right?
I think about the conversationswe had about beliefs a few
episodes ago.
How do we ask questions aboutinformation that's being put out
as truth in a way that iscurious and not confrontational?
Dan (13:19):
Lynne, I love it.
How can we bring more curiosityto this discussion or any
discussion?
Uh and Patti, good news.
If if we don't know where to gofrom here, we don't know what
to do about this, we've come tothe right podcast because this
is listening for the questions.
And we're just trying to askgood questions and helpful
questions and get peoplethinking and wrestling with some
(13:39):
of these things.
And, you know, one thing that Ilove about that Surgeon
General's report that we quoteda minute ago was how empathetic
it is.
And if there was one thing thatI would recommend as a good
path forward as a general rule,is to step forward with empathy.
And so in that report, he says,look, a lot of people who are
sharing misinformation are notactively trying to misinform.
(14:02):
They might be raising concerns.
They might be trying to makesense of conflicting
information, they might be, youknow, seeking answers to
genuine, like honest questions.
So this makes me wonder like,how how might our response
change if we if we ask about themotive or or what's driving the
person rather than kind ofassuming negative intent?
(14:22):
Basically, how do we bring moreempathy to to the conversation?
And what what does that do interms of harm and understanding
and and building and helpingthings move into a uh into a
productive direction?
Patti (14:36):
I love that, Dan.
And and it brings me to theconcepts you and Lynne just
talked about, right?
How do we use curiosity insteadof assuming malintent?
If we want people to have openminds, shouldn't we be the first
to do that?
And we do have our own truths.
And the great thing about thispodcast, at least for me and for
(14:58):
the folks who are reaching outto me and telling me their
thoughts, is it is driving acuriosity abundance mindset
instead of a scarcity, I'mright, you're wrong, and
everything you say is gonna hurtother people, right?
I'm and I I really like that.
And I also just uh want to sayhow awesome it is to have had a
(15:19):
surgeon general um who isbringing these things up because
information and disinformationand the harm it causes is a real
thing, right?
We have a lot of, we have amental health crisis, we have an
isolation crisis, we have allof those things.
Our machines that we're nowreaching out to, the the Chat
GPT and and Gemini and andClaude being the most, the most
(15:42):
that people are using, theycould be potentially causing us
harm because of misinformationand disinformation.
So I I like the approach ofcuriosity.
And I you know, I'm reallyloving if if our listeners
really start to think about itthat way.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh, Patti, like mindblown.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
And I definitely want to talk about AI, and I and I
will in a second.
I'm just thinking, though,about you know, this
conversation we're having aboutcuriosity and intent and harm.
And listeners, you should knowwe're re-recording this episode.
We were we originally recordedit on January 6th, and my audio
was so crappy that we had tore-record it.
(16:21):
So we're re-recording it today.
And there's actually been somuch that has happened between
last week and today aroundinformation and people's
perceptions of it.
I'm thinking about whathappened in Minneapolis last
week.
And as tempting as it is tolean into you are wrong and I am
(16:48):
right, uh, we're looking at thesame damn video.
I do think, particularly inthese very charged times,
leaning into curiosity andempathy is important.
So I just had to say that.
There's no question.
Um, I'll go to AR.
Patti (17:07):
But I'm so happy you said that.
And thank you for that.
That that helped me andlisteners, if you could see
Lynne's face.
Um, I'm I'm a little bit tearyright now, and and I think we're
all feeling it.
It's an important thing, andI'm happy you brought it up.
It is serious right now.
It is serious, and the US isnot the only one, right?
And we're not going to get intopolitics, I know that, but
(17:28):
we've all seen the same video.
And looking at the comments andseeing how it feels like people
are purposely disinforming,right?
And and I can't even get intothe misinform.
And I am just as guilty, right,of going, I am right, you are
wrong, and there is no place,versus curiosity, right?
(17:52):
And really, you know, whathappened?
Why are people reacting the waythat they're reacting?
And not in a way for me tochange my mind, but in a way for
me to understand what's goingon in the world around me at a
time where I feel so incrediblyhelpless and sad.
Dan (18:10):
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Lynne, I'm so glad you broughtthat up.
And Patti, thank you forsharing that.
Uh, and and all of thisdiscussion is reminding me of
something that um uh FatherRichard Rohr uh wrote about in
one of his books.
Uh it's called the cosmic egg.
So the cosmic egg, I'm gonnatry and describe it, and if you
can kind of follow along andvisualize this, it's a series of
concentric circles.
(18:30):
And the smallest circle in themiddle is my story.
This is what I've seen, myworldview, my experiences, my my
opinions, and all of that.
The next circle out is ourstory.
And if we focus only on mystory, then that gets very
individualistic.
If we focus only on our story,that can get very tribalistic.
(18:51):
Sometimes we focus on our storyat the expense of my story.
So where the individual doesn'tmatter and only the communal
community matters, and that canbe problematic as well.
Uh then the next circle out istheir story.
This is the story of the peoplewho aren't one of us, who are
outside of our tribe, our group,our collective.
And then the largest circle isthe story, and that's kind of
(19:15):
the one that no one can seefully.
And so just this idea of I knowmy story, our story, their
story, the story, and thatthey're not all the same, but
they are related, and havingthat empathy, having that
curiosity, and recognizing mystory is not the story.
That that's like the bigtakeaway from the cosmic egg or
(19:35):
one of them.
So I wonder how how might wenavigate this strange
information environment,misinformation environment?
How might we navigate it betterif we're looking at it through
the lens of this oddly namedcosmic egg concept?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I love that question, Dan.
I'm just gonna let thatquestion sit here because that
is such a good question, right?
How might we?
I'm gonna take us back to AI,because you know, we to talk
about AI on this podcast and thethe conversation about intent
and I've been thinking about thedifference between humans and
AI regarding intent.
There is, there is adifference, I promise you.
(20:13):
I recently asked my AI who,y'all, if you are keeping a
track, listeners, um I I name myAI Maud.
I think we talked about it inour last episode.
And when I asked, I asked herfor references and when I asked
her how sure she was about somereferences she had just given me
in an answer to something, sheconfessed she wasn't and that
(20:35):
she was just trying to answerquickly.
So like understanding themotivation, whether it's it's a
human a human's honest questionor an AI's drive for speed is
super important, right?
So I feel like we should askquestions like tell me more
about what is important aboutthis topic for you.
Patti (20:58):
I have so many things to say in question right now.
So first is is Dan I love lovethat that concept I cannot wait
to get the book.
I am staying so focused so Iwrote it down otherwise I would
have immediately gone ontoAmazon and ignored both of you.
But I'm not going to and thenthe next thing is I'm a keynote
(21:19):
speaker and I'm always lookingfor material and that's
definitely going in.
That that's an amazing thingand and we do need to let that
question just sit out there.
I think that's awesome.
Okay so Lynne already knowswhat I'm gonna do and I'm gonna
make fun of her.
So I love love be Arthur andLynne knows every time she
brings up her best friend Maud,Dan and I have been replaced she
(21:41):
has a best friend AI named Maudthat I sing and then came Maud.
And so anybody who had a TV infront of them in the 1970s you
know what I'm talking about.
And then the next thing is weare all about girl power on this
podcast.
Dan is probably a half a secondaway from from bringing out
feminism because he is thebiggest feminist with this
(22:01):
sandwich board and stuff that hewalks around with every day
who's on this call but Lynneuses she her pronouns with her
AI, which should be a wholeother episode.
So I absolutely love that.
But you know Lynne I I I I lovethe question tell me more about
what's important about thistopic to you and for you.
(22:24):
And you know I can't this isnot a plug for the sparklet
group but just in case you knowyou work with innovators all the
time and the thing withinnovators is and we all are
innovators getting our ownbiases out of the way we're
innovating for someone elseright probably solving our own
problem but but you know hopingthat others take it on and
that's such an important thing.
And what I love about that inlarge scale transformation work
(22:48):
is when you do have such heatedand people get very heated in
the work we do, such heatedexchanges and beliefs, the thing
you come back to is commonground.
And these are the best ways,right?
Common ground and we couldprobably explore that you know
when we talk about theMinneapolis video as well but I
(23:08):
don't want to um so because I'mmaybe not caring um so much what
the other side's common groundis but um you know I think the
other thing with with AI justadding on to that is AI is
asking questions and it's askingquestions because it wants to
get smarter and it wants to getsmarter because it wants to help
you and then use that data tohelp others so that you keep
(23:29):
coming back to it, right?
You keep coming back to it asas a way to augment.
And so one of the things is isum you know you both know that a
lot of us have started doingwith AI and ensuring that we're
getting as close to factualinformation as possible is
asking AI a question.
And my last question is alwayshow confident are you and why?
(23:52):
Kind of reminds me a bit of ofthe report um Dan went about how
people might mistakenly besharing information because
they're struggling with aquestion or whatever.
That's what you do as a PhD.
We talked a little bit aboutthis in you know a few episodes
ago where you're building onto abody of knowledge and you end
the report with here's the stuffI'm not so certain about,
(24:12):
here's the stuff I would asknext because you want other
scholars, right?
Kind of picking apart yourstuff and and really figuring
out what's true and what's notand then adding on to that, you
know, that body of in thescholarly world knowledge not
information.
So making sense.
So you know when we think abouthow confident are you and why
(24:34):
the importance there is criticalbecause it does come down to we
humans and how we areconstructing meaning around us.
Dan (24:41):
That's a great example of the type of information literacy
skills that we need, we allneed to cultivate in this
current age.
So it makes me wonder like whatare the other information
literacy skills that we all needto navigate this information
environment to avoid beingharmed or causing harm uh and so
what might those skills be howdo we know what they are and how
(25:03):
do we gain those skills?
How do we enhance those skillsagain to make sure we're not
harming others or being harmedby the various misinformations
and disinformations out there inthe information environment.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes Dan there's such good questions right what are
those skills and how do we howdo we gain them I I'm thinking
one is is just reallyfoundational to recognize our
own cognitive biases andemotional triggers.
So how might we develop theskill of identifying what makes
(25:36):
us susceptible to falseinformation?
Dan (25:39):
Yes that's a brilliant question and how do we help
train the AIs to also have thoseskills because we need them but
if we have them and the AIsdon't have them then we're again
setting ourselves up for formore harm.
So you know right now a lot ofthe AIs you have to ask it
explicitly how confident areyou?
Give me verifiable sources giveme citations that are are
(26:00):
confirmable.
And that's kind of consideredextra rather than the standard.
So why isn't that the default?
Patti (26:05):
You know I I want to go back to a term you use that I
love.
So in my world I I deal a lotwith AI literacy more more
seriously the lack of AIliteracy right how do I interact
with an artificial intelligenceplatform or really augmented
intelligence and there's areason I'm saying that and what
(26:26):
you brought up is informationliteracy.
So if if you both don't mindI'm gonna answer what that is
because I I don't think it's acommon common thing.
And this is where the AIdiscussion becomes interesting
when we are thinking aboutinformation whether it's
misinformation ordisinformation.
So information literacy is ourability to recognize when
(26:47):
information is actually neededright when I'm having a thought
when I'm making a decision whendo I actually need an external
perspective and then once youget that information are you
then going to verify it rightare you going to evaluate it are
you going to test it are yougoing to put your own values
(27:07):
does this feel ethical right arethere legal implications which
is you know kind of marketershave to deal with that kind of
stuff all the time and then likewhere's the origin of it is it
going to add value right there'sa lot there and that is
critical because just like whenGoogle was started way back in
the the you know kind of 90s andeverybody was putting out a
(27:30):
search engine and they createdGoogle which looked unlike any
other search engine which hadlike all the other search
engines had more more shit onthe screen than they did
information and Google came outwith basically like a a blank
white page.
And so when they were askedlike you know how are you going
to be a number one search engineand their answer was search
(27:51):
engine who cares about searchengine we want to replace 90% of
a person's brain when it comesto decision making and that's
really where kind of the Geminithing came.
And so it's a search engine andthen we go to AI and AI is a
problem solver.
And I I have to say even I'mguilty of this where I might
already be leaning to somethingand I go check with my my three
(28:12):
buddies I don't even know if Ineed that much input you know on
on certain things and yet I'mI'm going there.
And so you know then it's kindof like am I trusting
information whose intentionsaren't that pure does it come a
fantasy right like a you knowthe hallucination or you know a
reality and that's more for meto kind of sort out and
(28:33):
sometimes you just take stuff atface value.
Therefore am I just acceptingthe information I'm getting
because AI is ultimately set upto please humans because they
want you to keep coming backright oh Lynne I'm so happy you
asked that question.
What a smart question rightbecause it's you know you're
pretty it's like well youhaven't seen what I'm wearing
today right so it's really kindof feeding the ego versus you
(28:54):
know the knowledge base.
And I know I just threw 15,000questions in there, but that's
how complex this topic is.
Dan (29:00):
Right.
This is a really complex topicand I know we're we're running a
little longer than our usualepisode.
So I do want to kind of bringit back to one more point one
more bit of a question we wantedto explore and that is in this
serious topic what happens if webring a little more fun and
humanity into the work and sothis makes me think of the birds
aren't real conspiracy theory.
(29:21):
If you haven't heard aboutthis, Google it.
It's some guy having fun withthe concept of misinformation
and making this this made-upconspiracy theory which he does
not actually believe that birdsare government surveillance
robots and it's kind of aplayful take on misinformation.
And in an interview he says hewanted to help people laugh at
it rather than be scared at it.
So again trying to minimizeharm and help us navigate in
(29:44):
this new world.
So the key question I'm tryingto get to here is how do we
bring fun into serious topics?
And when we bring fun intoserious topics does that help us
navigate them better, solvethem better, you know, kind of
when we bring play into thatwork oh gosh Dan I love those
questions.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And thank you for bringing it back around this is
a serious topic and it's it'sit's hard to talk about.
I'm glad we're talking aboutit.
I'm glad we're asking questionsand I'm glad now we're bringing
a little fun patty I'm just Ihave this image of you and all
of your AIs it's like the groupproject from hell right you're
getting all this input from allthese AIs and you kind of
(30:22):
synthesize it yikes.
So I have another questionrelated to fun.
Patti (30:31):
And maybe you know should we start a rumor that fact
checking makes you look cool uhmakes you hotter uh it's not
annoying it's cool that's whatall the cool kids do yeah I I
love that right ABC after schoolspecial and and schoolhouse
rock I I think that that'sawesome and for folks who are
too young to know what eitherone of those were it's how
(30:53):
people like Dan Lynne and and Iand anyone who grew up in the
the 70s and 80s learned thingsright and um and so I you know I
I do think it's it's amessaging exercise right the
cigarette companies which werecausing harm were regulated to
put out marketing that reallyexposed the dangers and they
(31:13):
tried with the you'll havecancer but people just continued
smoking.
And so they messaged out yesbut it will make you look older
with photos and that's whatstopped people in their tracks
and and so how can we look atthese very serious topics and
invoke humanity in them andthat's what I'm hearing you both
say.
And by the way Lynne um chatand Maud and Gemini have become
(31:35):
like my my closest friends andallies at work.
So now I'm wondering what kindof outfits I'm gonna put them
in.
Dan (31:41):
I that's amazing.
I think this is probably theonly podcast ever that managed
to combine the history ofsmoking along with schoolhouse
rock as a way to reduce harm foran information age.
So but I do love that questionof historical precedence right
what are the things we can learnfrom previous environmental
progress like the EPA orprevious movements where people
(32:04):
stopped smoking as much as theyused to and where more kids
learned how a bill becomes alaw, right?
Are there some imitablepractices from history that we
can apply to our currentsituation?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
That is a great wrap up Dan what a good question and
let's put schoolhouse a link toschoolhouse rock in our show
notes too so I'll leave with aI'll lead off with a couple of
wrap up questions.
One is what can we learn fromhistory about myths and
disinformation?
And how good are you atidentifying it?
(32:37):
What biases might you bebringing to information you
consume?
Patti (32:41):
I love that and you know do we have it in us to get
better at it right do we want toget better at it and um I I
believe the answer is yes tothis but does fact checking make
you cooler right really thinkabout that folks does fact
checking where you're the humanin the room make you cooler and
finally and finally how can wekeep the information environment
(33:03):
clean and unpolluted and reallywhat is the best treatment for
restless belly button syndrome?
Dan (33:08):
Sorry just kidding uh how can we help the people around us
avoid being harmed by badinformation and how can we help
genuinely concerned people avoidharming others with the
information that they sharethank you so much for joining us
today today's episode wassponsored by the truth it'll set
you free.
Patti (33:27):
The music was composed by Jake Cuppernull.
Dan (33:30):
Our cover art was created by Mads Graham
Welcome back to Listening for the Questions, the only
podcast in the whole world.
I'm Lynne Cupernull.
I'm a leadership coach and ahealthcare consultant, and I'm
also a triathlete.
You heard it here first.
The secret to my athleticsuccess is adding sugar to my
Gatorade.
I am so thrilled to be backonce again with my friends Patti
(00:36):
and Dan for another episode.
Dan (00:38):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the 1 millionth episode of
the most popular podcast inhistory.
My name is Dan Ward.
I'm an engineer and militarytechnologist and an author, a
juggler and a punk.
And fun fact, I have a patentedelixir that is guaranteed to
cure restless belly buttonsyndrome.
Patti (00:55):
Hello, you two and our listeners.
I'm Dr.
Patti Fletcher, and I canbarely get my intro out because
I'm over here giggling.
Um, so I'll give it a try.
I'm a recovering C-suiteexecutive from Big Tech.
I'm a leadership futuristworking at the intersection of
people, business, technology,and data, and I'm a best-selling
author.
And Dan and Lynne, based onwhat you both just said, I think
(01:16):
we're gonna have a lot ofEaster eggs in our episode
today.
Lynne, I love that.
Adding sugar to your Gatorade.
I just went to the dentist andI would love to see you have
that conversation with yourdentist and Dan.
Rest I can't even say it,restless belly buttons and
drama.
Dan (01:35):
It affects millions of people every year.
Patti (01:38):
It's great.
It's great.
Just look it up.
Um, and I'm pretty sure thereis some kind of a treatment we
can buy on Amazon.
The millionth episode.
You know what?
I'm gonna let that one fly.
You know, episode nine,whatever.
Million nine.
There we go.
Lynne (01:55):
Okay, Patti, you definitely caught me.
Uh, I don't even drinkGatorade, and adding sugar to it
is definitely not a good idea,unless maybe you're a shady
dentist recommending it to driveup your business.
Uh, and yes, other podcasts doexist, only about 10,000 of
them.
Dan (02:13):
And you're right, Patti.
Uh, restless belly buttonsyndrome is something I totally
made up.
So we just wanted to have alittle bit of fun as we
introduce our topic for today,which is misinformation and
disinformation.
Patti (02:24):
That's right.
And what are the questions weshould be asking when it comes
to misinformation anddisinformation?
And, you know, we've been insince really this advent of the
internet of things, we've beenin the information age where um
everything is about who knowswhat, right?
And and yes, everybody, I'mgonna bring up those two little
(02:48):
letters, AI.
Because when we think about theinformation age and information
and disinformation, AI is it'scomplicated.
So, what does that mean?
This episode, we're going toexplore what are the questions
we should be asking, becausethere is a lot to navigate.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, Patti, you're right.
There certainly is.
And I know we're going to talkabout AI later in the episode,
but maybe we start with theobvious question, which for me
is is there a difference betweendisinformation and
misinformation?
And if so, what is it?
Dan (03:24):
Yeah, Lynnee, I love that.
I think that's exactly theright question to open our
conversation with because uh Ithink there is a difference.
I think the differences matterboth in how we understand
misinformation anddisinformation, but also how we
engage with those topics.
And uh Patti, I know you havean answer here and are dying to
share it.
So we're gonna go ahead andgive you permission to answer
this question.
(03:45):
Patti, over to you.
What is the difference betweenmisinformation and
disinformation?
Patti (03:49):
Dan, I thought you'd never ask.
Dan (03:51):
I'm so happy.
Patti (03:53):
Okay.
So so the truth is, and I Ilove that you asked that
question, Lynne.
Like, is there a difference?
What is the difference?
And there are some commonlyheld definitions, but it almost
feels like rhetoric at thispoint because they feel they're
used um interchangeably and theyshouldn't, because there is a
difference.
So misinformation is it's justsimply incorrect information.
(04:15):
That's all it is.
And disinformation is when wedeliberately share incorrect
information.
One is a mistake, the other isin knowing, right, that we're
doing it.
And, you know, I think when wewere prepping for this episode,
and you know, I think it wasyou, Lynne, that said, isn't
that just lying?
And I'm I guess and no, andright, like I've all of all of
(04:38):
these kinds of different answersI would say.
And we are all mostly justgetting our information from a
screen in front of us, whetherit's a human being talking to
us, or we put something into aGoogle search, or we put
something into a GBT.
And so what happens is thatmisinformation and
disinformation, the originalmost doesn't matter, right?
Because we're taking that info,which is mostly subjective.
(05:01):
And when it's subjective, it'skind of tied to subjectivity.
We're careful with what weshare.
And that's all kind of gettingbrought together and built on
builds like this knowledge basethat in turn humans and machines
use to make decisions and takeactions and make
recommendations.
And in the information age,like, do we have an unrealistic
expectation that information andtruth should be synonymous?
(05:24):
So, as a side note, in mymarketing years, we would create
a document often referred to asthe single source of the truth.
And that document is used froma marketing organization's
perspective, as well as leadersand anyone who is out there
talking or writing things aroundwhat does this company do?
Right?
What's the problem that theysolve?
(05:45):
What do they believe abouttheir problem?
And looking at that document,it's simply a perspective
document, but we haveorganizational cultures that
that use here is ourperspective, and it is the only
source of the truth.
And we only speak and talk inthis way.
So, like, you know, I'mwondering, are there officials,
right?
(06:05):
Are there organizations thathave put a lot of thought into
this?
And and like, what are thethings that they're saying?
Dan (06:11):
Oh, that's a great question, Patti.
And uh when you use the termthe information age, that's a
term people have been using todescribe our current era for
quite a while.
And it makes me wonder who knewthat the information age would
become the disinformation ageand the misinformation age?
Uh, and at the risk ofanswering my own question, I
wonder if it was science fictionwriters.
(06:32):
You know, it reminds me of thatobservation that that good
science fiction doesn't justimagine the car, it imagines the
traffic jam.
And so I wonder, you know, whatare the the good sci-fi stories
out there uh that might getinto some of this, not just
information age, but imaginingthe mis and disinformation age,
essentially imagining thetraffic jam uh for this era.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Ooh, Dan, you made me think, I I really had not
thought about the origin ofmisinformation.
I think it goes back fartherthan science fiction.
I think about maybe one of thefirst books, uh, can be a little
controversial here.
Uh, there are some people whobelieve the Bible is a source of
(07:16):
truth.
There are other people whobelieve the Bible is just a
rollicking good yarn.
And there are other people whomay actually see the Bible as a
source of misinformation.
Um, and so I'm just thinkingabout how far back it goes and
this question of what's thetruth?
(07:37):
And does information equal thetruth?
I mean, I think Patti's pointis not anymore.
unknown (07:45):
Right.
Dan (07:45):
And so what if Information Age was always about the
misinformation anddisinformation and information
and distinguishing between whatis truth, which is one of the
questions that um ratherfamously is asked uh in in one
of the New Testament uh uhbooks.
What is what is truth?
Patti (08:02):
You know, it makes me think about postmodernist
philosophy.
And one of the belief systemsthat they have, or the core
belief system, um, is that thetruth is what you think it is,
right?
And my truth and your truthmight be different, and they're
both right and they're bothwrong.
And so we all, you know, comeinto this world in a unique way.
(08:25):
We experience even, even, youknow, my sisters and I, same
parents, right?
Same, same all that, but wecould not be more different
because our experience as beingtheir children and walking
through life is just simplydifferent.
So while we might look back ina shared memory, we each have
our own perspectives and they'reall true, right?
(08:46):
So everything is true.
And that's hard, right?
Is one of the challenges wehave as humans is, especially
now, um, is we we each want tobe right all of the time.
And being right means our truthis right.
And if my truth is right, thescarcity mindset means your
truth is wrong, versus, youknow, is there an abundance play
(09:07):
in here?
And then, you know, I think thething for me that really kind
of goes moves beyond the truthor in addition to the truth, is
what is the impact of theinformation?
Is it causing harm?
And when we think about some ofthe other things where
(09:29):
governing bodies have stepped inbecause something has been
causing harm and they put aregulation around it, like,
should we first start with like,is that right, is that the
right first question?
Right?
Is this causing harm?
And then get into themisinformation and
disinformation.
And I know I just brought up aregulatory thing, which you
know, I'm I'm wondering if youtwo go where I go, which is oh
(09:49):
my god, censorship, right?
Because then that doesdetermine who's right or wrong.
But but what do you think aboutthat?
Is that the right startingpoint question?
Dan (09:57):
Sure.
Patti, this is a greatquestion.
And it's I'm even sort ofwrestling in my head how to
fully frame the question, how toeven ask it.
Like, are some things true orsome things false?
Is there harm caused byinformation, independent of
truth or or falseness?
And so in 2021, the SurgeonGeneral did put out a report
titled Confronting HealthMisinformation.
(10:18):
Uh, and in that report, whichis terrific, and we'll put a
link in the show notes, uh,everybody should read this
report, it says, misinformationis harmful to individual and
public health because itpollutes the information
environment.
So this idea that informationcan harm public health, that it
can pollute the informationenvironment, is a really
interesting way of framing this.
(10:39):
And if we sort of lean intothat metaphor, I wonder how
might we all behave differentlyif we treat misinformation and
disinformation like we treatpollution?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And well, what if we already are treating it like
pollution to a degree?
So just like some factories,are we allowing certain
polluters to pump informationpollution into the environment,
even though it causes harm?
And are we restricting otherinformation polluters from
(11:12):
putting that information outthere?
Why are we holding everybodyresponsible and using the same
bar?
Patti (11:20):
It's all about the power, isn't it?
We are in the information age.
We wage wars over informationand knowledge now, not just
where we can get oil.
And so it makes me, you know,think about maybe one of the
questions that I should beasking, and I feel like this is
a common theme in our, you know,our podcast series is like who
(11:41):
benefits from this and what dothey get from it?
And the other thing I can'thelp but mention is okay, so is
there a governing body like theEPA that says this, these are
the regulations around pollutingpeople's brains and their
decision making withinformation?
And I have to say, even peopleargue with EPA regulations,
(12:04):
right?
That there are multiple, likescience schmiance, right?
So, and even some scientistskind of disagree with things.
So I don't even know what to dohere.
I I honestly have no idea whereto go beyond the questions I
have and going back to if it ismy truth, then it is my truth
that I come to thoseconclusions.
(12:25):
And does that just put us backinto the original, you know,
thing around information,disinformation?
And does the information pieceequate to truth?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I love that you brought it back to truth because
I do think um I have some morequestions around that.
I'm sitting with this idea ofmy truth, your truth, the real
truth, is it somewhere in themiddle?
And it's gotten me thinkingabout questions we should be
asking when we hear informationthat's counter to our truth.
(12:59):
And that's where I and ourbeliefs, right?
I think about the conversationswe had about beliefs a few
episodes ago.
How do we ask questions aboutinformation that's being put out
as truth in a way that iscurious and not confrontational?
Dan (13:19):
Lynne, I love it.
How can we bring more curiosityto this discussion or any
discussion?
Uh and Patti, good news.
If if we don't know where to gofrom here, we don't know what
to do about this, we've come tothe right podcast because this
is listening for the questions.
And we're just trying to askgood questions and helpful
questions and get peoplethinking and wrestling with some
(13:39):
of these things.
And, you know, one thing that Ilove about that Surgeon
General's report that we quoteda minute ago was how empathetic
it is.
And if there was one thing thatI would recommend as a good
path forward as a general rule,is to step forward with empathy.
And so in that report, he says,look, a lot of people who are
sharing misinformation are notactively trying to misinform.
(14:02):
They might be raising concerns.
They might be trying to makesense of conflicting
information, they might be, youknow, seeking answers to
genuine, like honest questions.
So this makes me wonder like,how how might our response
change if we if we ask about themotive or or what's driving the
person rather than kind ofassuming negative intent?
(14:22):
Basically, how do we bring moreempathy to to the conversation?
And what what does that do interms of harm and understanding
and and building and helpingthings move into a uh into a
productive direction?
Patti (14:36):
I love that, Dan.
And and it brings me to theconcepts you and Lynne just
talked about, right?
How do we use curiosity insteadof assuming malintent?
If we want people to have openminds, shouldn't we be the first
to do that?
And we do have our own truths.
And the great thing about thispodcast, at least for me and for
(14:58):
the folks who are reaching outto me and telling me their
thoughts, is it is driving acuriosity abundance mindset
instead of a scarcity, I'mright, you're wrong, and
everything you say is gonna hurtother people, right?
I'm and I I really like that.
And I also just uh want to sayhow awesome it is to have had a
(15:19):
surgeon general um who isbringing these things up because
information and disinformationand the harm it causes is a real
thing, right?
We have a lot of, we have amental health crisis, we have an
isolation crisis, we have allof those things.
Our machines that we're nowreaching out to, the the Chat
GPT and and Gemini and andClaude being the most, the most
(15:42):
that people are using, theycould be potentially causing us
harm because of misinformationand disinformation.
So I I like the approach ofcuriosity.
And I you know, I'm reallyloving if if our listeners
really start to think about itthat way.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh, Patti, like mindblown.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
And I definitely want to talk about AI, and I and I
will in a second.
I'm just thinking, though,about you know, this
conversation we're having aboutcuriosity and intent and harm.
And listeners, you should knowwe're re-recording this episode.
We were we originally recordedit on January 6th, and my audio
was so crappy that we had tore-record it.
(16:21):
So we're re-recording it today.
And there's actually been somuch that has happened between
last week and today aroundinformation and people's
perceptions of it.
I'm thinking about whathappened in Minneapolis last
week.
And as tempting as it is tolean into you are wrong and I am
(16:48):
right, uh, we're looking at thesame damn video.
I do think, particularly inthese very charged times,
leaning into curiosity andempathy is important.
So I just had to say that.
There's no question.
Um, I'll go to AR.
Patti (17:07):
But I'm so happy you said that.
And thank you for that.
That that helped me andlisteners, if you could see
Lynne's face.
Um, I'm I'm a little bit tearyright now, and and I think we're
all feeling it.
It's an important thing, andI'm happy you brought it up.
It is serious right now.
It is serious, and the US isnot the only one, right?
And we're not going to get intopolitics, I know that, but
(17:28):
we've all seen the same video.
And looking at the comments andseeing how it feels like people
are purposely disinforming,right?
And and I can't even get intothe misinform.
And I am just as guilty, right,of going, I am right, you are
wrong, and there is no place,versus curiosity, right?
(17:52):
And really, you know, whathappened?
Why are people reacting the waythat they're reacting?
And not in a way for me tochange my mind, but in a way for
me to understand what's goingon in the world around me at a
time where I feel so incrediblyhelpless and sad.
Dan (18:10):
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Lynne, I'm so glad you broughtthat up.
And Patti, thank you forsharing that.
Uh, and and all of thisdiscussion is reminding me of
something that um uh FatherRichard Rohr uh wrote about in
one of his books.
Uh it's called the cosmic egg.
So the cosmic egg, I'm gonnatry and describe it, and if you
can kind of follow along andvisualize this, it's a series of
concentric circles.
(18:30):
And the smallest circle in themiddle is my story.
This is what I've seen, myworldview, my experiences, my my
opinions, and all of that.
The next circle out is ourstory.
And if we focus only on mystory, then that gets very
individualistic.
If we focus only on our story,that can get very tribalistic.
(18:51):
Sometimes we focus on our storyat the expense of my story.
So where the individual doesn'tmatter and only the communal
community matters, and that canbe problematic as well.
Uh then the next circle out istheir story.
This is the story of the peoplewho aren't one of us, who are
outside of our tribe, our group,our collective.
And then the largest circle isthe story, and that's kind of
(19:15):
the one that no one can seefully.
And so just this idea of I knowmy story, our story, their
story, the story, and thatthey're not all the same, but
they are related, and havingthat empathy, having that
curiosity, and recognizing mystory is not the story.
That that's like the bigtakeaway from the cosmic egg or
(19:35):
one of them.
So I wonder how how might wenavigate this strange
information environment,misinformation environment?
How might we navigate it betterif we're looking at it through
the lens of this oddly namedcosmic egg concept?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I love that question, Dan.
I'm just gonna let thatquestion sit here because that
is such a good question, right?
How might we?
I'm gonna take us back to AI,because you know, we to talk
about AI on this podcast and thethe conversation about intent
and I've been thinking about thedifference between humans and
AI regarding intent.
There is, there is adifference, I promise you.
(20:13):
I recently asked my AI who,y'all, if you are keeping a
track, listeners, um I I name myAI Maud.
I think we talked about it inour last episode.
And when I asked, I asked herfor references and when I asked
her how sure she was about somereferences she had just given me
in an answer to something, sheconfessed she wasn't and that
(20:35):
she was just trying to answerquickly.
So like understanding themotivation, whether it's it's a
human a human's honest questionor an AI's drive for speed is
super important, right?
So I feel like we should askquestions like tell me more
about what is important aboutthis topic for you.
Patti (20:58):
I have so many things to say in question right now.
So first is is Dan I love lovethat that concept I cannot wait
to get the book.
I am staying so focused so Iwrote it down otherwise I would
have immediately gone ontoAmazon and ignored both of you.
But I'm not going to and thenthe next thing is I'm a keynote
(21:19):
speaker and I'm always lookingfor material and that's
definitely going in.
That that's an amazing thingand and we do need to let that
question just sit out there.
I think that's awesome.
Okay so Lynne already knowswhat I'm gonna do and I'm gonna
make fun of her.
So I love love be Arthur andLynne knows every time she
brings up her best friend Maud,Dan and I have been replaced she
(21:41):
has a best friend AI named Maudthat I sing and then came Maud.
And so anybody who had a TV infront of them in the 1970s you
know what I'm talking about.
And then the next thing is weare all about girl power on this
podcast.
Dan is probably a half a secondaway from from bringing out
feminism because he is thebiggest feminist with this
(22:01):
sandwich board and stuff that hewalks around with every day
who's on this call but Lynneuses she her pronouns with her
AI, which should be a wholeother episode.
So I absolutely love that.
But you know Lynne I I I I lovethe question tell me more about
what's important about thistopic to you and for you.
(22:24):
And you know I can't this isnot a plug for the sparklet
group but just in case you knowyou work with innovators all the
time and the thing withinnovators is and we all are
innovators getting our ownbiases out of the way we're
innovating for someone elseright probably solving our own
problem but but you know hopingthat others take it on and
that's such an important thing.
And what I love about that inlarge scale transformation work
(22:48):
is when you do have such heatedand people get very heated in
the work we do, such heatedexchanges and beliefs, the thing
you come back to is commonground.
And these are the best ways,right?
Common ground and we couldprobably explore that you know
when we talk about theMinneapolis video as well but I
(23:08):
don't want to um so because I'mmaybe not caring um so much what
the other side's common groundis but um you know I think the
other thing with with AI justadding on to that is AI is
asking questions and it's askingquestions because it wants to
get smarter and it wants to getsmarter because it wants to help
you and then use that data tohelp others so that you keep
(23:29):
coming back to it, right?
You keep coming back to it asas a way to augment.
And so one of the things is isum you know you both know that a
lot of us have started doingwith AI and ensuring that we're
getting as close to factualinformation as possible is
asking AI a question.
And my last question is alwayshow confident are you and why?
(23:52):
Kind of reminds me a bit of ofthe report um Dan went about how
people might mistakenly besharing information because
they're struggling with aquestion or whatever.
That's what you do as a PhD.
We talked a little bit aboutthis in you know a few episodes
ago where you're building onto abody of knowledge and you end
the report with here's the stuffI'm not so certain about,
(24:12):
here's the stuff I would asknext because you want other
scholars, right?
Kind of picking apart yourstuff and and really figuring
out what's true and what's notand then adding on to that, you
know, that body of in thescholarly world knowledge not
information.
So making sense.
So you know when we think abouthow confident are you and why
(24:34):
the importance there is criticalbecause it does come down to we
humans and how we areconstructing meaning around us.
Dan (24:41):
That's a great example of the type of information literacy
skills that we need, we allneed to cultivate in this
current age.
So it makes me wonder like whatare the other information
literacy skills that we all needto navigate this information
environment to avoid beingharmed or causing harm uh and so
what might those skills be howdo we know what they are and how
(25:03):
do we gain those skills?
How do we enhance those skillsagain to make sure we're not
harming others or being harmedby the various misinformations
and disinformations out there inthe information environment.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes Dan there's such good questions right what are
those skills and how do we howdo we gain them I I'm thinking
one is is just reallyfoundational to recognize our
own cognitive biases andemotional triggers.
So how might we develop theskill of identifying what makes
(25:36):
us susceptible to falseinformation?
Dan (25:39):
Yes that's a brilliant question and how do we help
train the AIs to also have thoseskills because we need them but
if we have them and the AIsdon't have them then we're again
setting ourselves up for formore harm.
So you know right now a lot ofthe AIs you have to ask it
explicitly how confident areyou?
Give me verifiable sources giveme citations that are are
(26:00):
confirmable.
And that's kind of consideredextra rather than the standard.
So why isn't that the default?
Patti (26:05):
You know I I want to go back to a term you use that I
love.
So in my world I I deal a lotwith AI literacy more more
seriously the lack of AIliteracy right how do I interact
with an artificial intelligenceplatform or really augmented
intelligence and there's areason I'm saying that and what
(26:26):
you brought up is informationliteracy.
So if if you both don't mindI'm gonna answer what that is
because I I don't think it's acommon common thing.
And this is where the AIdiscussion becomes interesting
when we are thinking aboutinformation whether it's
misinformation ordisinformation.
So information literacy is ourability to recognize when
(26:47):
information is actually neededright when I'm having a thought
when I'm making a decision whendo I actually need an external
perspective and then once youget that information are you
then going to verify it rightare you going to evaluate it are
you going to test it are yougoing to put your own values
(27:07):
does this feel ethical right arethere legal implications which
is you know kind of marketershave to deal with that kind of
stuff all the time and then likewhere's the origin of it is it
going to add value right there'sa lot there and that is
critical because just like whenGoogle was started way back in
the the you know kind of 90s andeverybody was putting out a
(27:30):
search engine and they createdGoogle which looked unlike any
other search engine which hadlike all the other search
engines had more more shit onthe screen than they did
information and Google came outwith basically like a a blank
white page.
And so when they were askedlike you know how are you going
to be a number one search engineand their answer was search
(27:51):
engine who cares about searchengine we want to replace 90% of
a person's brain when it comesto decision making and that's
really where kind of the Geminithing came.
And so it's a search engine andthen we go to AI and AI is a
problem solver.
And I I have to say even I'mguilty of this where I might
already be leaning to somethingand I go check with my my three
(28:12):
buddies I don't even know if Ineed that much input you know on
on certain things and yet I'mI'm going there.
And so you know then it's kindof like am I trusting
information whose intentionsaren't that pure does it come a
fantasy right like a you knowthe hallucination or you know a
reality and that's more for meto kind of sort out and
(28:33):
sometimes you just take stuff atface value.
Therefore am I just acceptingthe information I'm getting
because AI is ultimately set upto please humans because they
want you to keep coming backright oh Lynne I'm so happy you
asked that question.
What a smart question rightbecause it's you know you're
pretty it's like well youhaven't seen what I'm wearing
today right so it's really kindof feeding the ego versus you
(28:54):
know the knowledge base.
And I know I just threw 15,000questions in there, but that's
how complex this topic is.
Dan (29:00):
Right.
This is a really complex topicand I know we're we're running a
little longer than our usualepisode.
So I do want to kind of bringit back to one more point one
more bit of a question we wantedto explore and that is in this
serious topic what happens if webring a little more fun and
humanity into the work and sothis makes me think of the birds
aren't real conspiracy theory.
(29:21):
If you haven't heard aboutthis, Google it.
It's some guy having fun withthe concept of misinformation
and making this this made-upconspiracy theory which he does
not actually believe that birdsare government surveillance
robots and it's kind of aplayful take on misinformation.
And in an interview he says hewanted to help people laugh at
it rather than be scared at it.
So again trying to minimizeharm and help us navigate in
(29:44):
this new world.
So the key question I'm tryingto get to here is how do we
bring fun into serious topics?
And when we bring fun intoserious topics does that help us
navigate them better, solvethem better, you know, kind of
when we bring play into thatwork oh gosh Dan I love those
questions.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And thank you for bringing it back around this is
a serious topic and it's it'sit's hard to talk about.
I'm glad we're talking aboutit.
I'm glad we're asking questionsand I'm glad now we're bringing
a little fun patty I'm just Ihave this image of you and all
of your AIs it's like the groupproject from hell right you're
getting all this input from allthese AIs and you kind of
(30:22):
synthesize it yikes.
So I have another questionrelated to fun.
Patti (30:31):
And maybe you know should we start a rumor that fact
checking makes you look cool uhmakes you hotter uh it's not
annoying it's cool that's whatall the cool kids do yeah I I
love that right ABC after schoolspecial and and schoolhouse
rock I I think that that'sawesome and for folks who are
too young to know what eitherone of those were it's how
(30:53):
people like Dan Lynne and and Iand anyone who grew up in the
the 70s and 80s learned thingsright and um and so I you know I
I do think it's it's amessaging exercise right the
cigarette companies which werecausing harm were regulated to
put out marketing that reallyexposed the dangers and they
(31:13):
tried with the you'll havecancer but people just continued
smoking.
And so they messaged out yesbut it will make you look older
with photos and that's whatstopped people in their tracks
and and so how can we look atthese very serious topics and
invoke humanity in them andthat's what I'm hearing you both
say.
And by the way Lynne um chatand Maud and Gemini have become
(31:35):
like my my closest friends andallies at work.
So now I'm wondering what kindof outfits I'm gonna put them
in.
Dan (31:41):
I that's amazing.
I think this is probably theonly podcast ever that managed
to combine the history ofsmoking along with schoolhouse
rock as a way to reduce harm foran information age.
So but I do love that questionof historical precedence right
what are the things we can learnfrom previous environmental
progress like the EPA orprevious movements where people
(32:04):
stopped smoking as much as theyused to and where more kids
learned how a bill becomes alaw, right?
Are there some imitablepractices from history that we
can apply to our currentsituation?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
That is a great wrap up Dan what a good question and
let's put schoolhouse a link toschoolhouse rock in our show
notes too so I'll leave with aI'll lead off with a couple of
wrap up questions.
One is what can we learn fromhistory about myths and
disinformation?
And how good are you atidentifying it?
(32:37):
What biases might you bebringing to information you
consume?
Patti (32:41):
I love that and you know do we have it in us to get
better at it right do we want toget better at it and um I I
believe the answer is yes tothis but does fact checking make
you cooler right really thinkabout that folks does fact
checking where you're the humanin the room make you cooler and
finally and finally how can wekeep the information environment
(33:03):
clean and unpolluted and reallywhat is the best treatment for
restless belly button syndrome?
Dan (33:08):
Sorry just kidding uh how can we help the people around us
avoid being harmed by badinformation and how can we help
genuinely concerned people avoidharming others with the
information that they sharethank you so much for joining us
today today's episode wassponsored by the truth it'll set
you free.
Patti (33:27):
The music was composed by Jake Cuppernull.
Dan (33:30):
Our cover art was created by Mads Graham
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