"Secret of the Ooze" at 35: Were Critics in the 90s Wrong about "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II?"

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Ever wondered what critics had to say about your favorite films
when they first hit theaters? That's what we're taking a look
at today with a new series from Meet Your Double Feature that
we're calling What Did Critics Think?
For our first episode in the series, we're going to take a
look back at an old childhood favorite to see what critics had
to say about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, The Secret of
the Use when it first hit theaters back in March of 1991.

(00:32):
Hello and welcome to Meet Your Double feature.
My name is Thomas, joined as always by my brother Frank.
Frank, how's it going? I'm.
Excited to talk about some turtles man.
Some turtles. 4. Turtles in particular. 4 turtles
no more. We're not talking about the girl
one. I will.
If you want me to he. Loves he's not in the movie, but

(00:53):
I mean, that is its own can of worms.
Anyway, yes, we're kicking things off here.
We're in our offseason from our regular meet you double feature
content and once again, just trying out a new format just to
see, you know, stretch our legs a bit.
Talk about movies you and I haveseen prior to recording episodes
about them. I would say Secret of the Use,
maybe a movie I've seen more than any other movie in my life.

(01:16):
Yeah, yeah. I think possibly the same.
For me, like a lot of people, and maybe it's different now,
but like especially in the age where you had like a home video
collection, a lot of kids would just have one movie that they
watched over and over again fromlike a certain age range.
And for us growing up in the 90s, I would say Secret of the
Use was your main one. And then I also ended up
watching it a lot. And then I also watched a ton of

(01:38):
the Mighty Morphin Power Rangersmovie.
So like those two were just on constantly.
And even as an adult, I'll put Secret to the Use on every now
and again because I like it. It's a fun movie.
Yeah, we watched those on VHS, and if you don't know what Avhs
is, get out of here. Get out of here.

(02:00):
Not welcome. No, of course.
Yeah. So that was like our routine
watch as kids. And we we just know those movies
by heart. We can quote them front to back.
And what I thought was interesting was that for the
second year in a row, they've shown one of the live action
Turtles movies from the 90s at movie theaters as part of one of
those like Fathom Events screenings.

(02:21):
Because I think this year, 2026,was the 35th anniversary of
Secret of the Use. So I went to see that back in
March. Were you did you go as well or
did you miss that one? No, I didn't.
I didn't. I didn't see either of them in
theaters, but that was really cool because I don't think they
originally were going to releasesecret reviews as well.
I think it was the first one didso well financially that they're

(02:41):
like, OK, I guess we'll do secret reviews too.
Yeah, we're in an era of profitable theatrical re
releases, which I don't mind at all.
I think it's super fun. I also got to see the Star Wars
prequels in theaters again. I like it as a trend.
But what I thought was interesting coming back from
watching Secret of the Use, was I took a look at critic reviews
because obviously it's a family movie from the 90s.

(03:03):
It's like an action comedy. I know that it was not highly
regarded, even scored lower thanthe previous live action Ninja
Turtles film from 1990. But I wanted to look at like
what actual film critics were saying about it week of, you
know, like what was like the capital D discourse about Secret
of the Use just in America when it was released.

(03:24):
Because I imagine it, it must have been so different than how
people would look at it now whenit's like a film with a long
legacy and impressions have kindof morphed over time.
Like at this certain point, thiswas just a movie you could go
see at the theater. And I thought it'd be funny to
look at like, what were people saying about it?
And honestly, the findings are shocking to me.
Very. Bizarre takes the findings, it's

(03:48):
like we've done the research, it's the results will shock you.
They will shock you. I have done more research for
this than usual because rather than just watching the movie, I
went and I sourced. I think I read through probably
like a dozen or so reviews from like larger, mostly newspaper
offerings in 1991. And I looked at a couple that

(04:08):
are like newer reviews from likewebsites and fan sites in the 20
tens. And then of course, you and I
have our own opinions, which we'll get into.
But overall, there was just likea broad narrative around this
sequel, specifically Secret of the Use, where people were
talking about a movie that was not what was released, if that

(04:28):
makes sense. Like, they had all these
expectations going in that they just ignored what was actually
happening and criticized it overthings that I think were
entirely unfair. So I want to revisit that today
and sort of interweave it with our own perspectives on the
movie, you know, 30 years on. Wow, that that's a long time.
That's a long time ago that thatmovie came out.

(04:50):
Yeah, I know, right? It doesn't feel like everything
in the 90s feels like it's perpetually 10 years ago to me.
Yeah, it is. It is.
Don't. It is until otherwise, Yeah,
these other years don't count. So the biggest thing that set me
off, I'll just I'll get into this, I guess.
Do you want no box office? You want no box office numbers
first. Tell me the.
Box office. Let's look at that box of

(05:13):
offices or whatever that is, whatever that means.
So part of the deal was that theoriginal TMNT movie from 1990,
the first live action feature film that the Turtles appeared
in, did way better than I think people were expecting.
It was a massive release. I have written down here that it
was like the ninth highest grossing film of 1990.

(05:34):
And because it was distributed by New Line Cinema, it's
technically hailed as at the time the highest grossing
independent film release up until that year.
I think it's been beaten since then, but at the time it was
like a record setting independent film release because
it was not distributed by a hugestudio.
So Massive hit more than people I think were even expecting.
Although it does make sense because Turtle Mania was like a

(05:56):
whole thing at the time. Oh, I was there.
I was there for Turtle Mania. I was a part.
Of I was there 3000 years ago, what were you saying?
You said you started it. Yeah.
That's the first one I told everybody.
Here's the word of mouth. You're like pretty good this
one. Cool, but rude actually.

(06:18):
Interesting. Interesting.
So yeah, I think the first film did like $200 million worldwide
and that's a 1990 money. So quite successful 19. 90
money. It was funny looking.
It was orange. It's funny, it was weird, had
Homer Simpson on it and then thesequel came out like a year

(06:39):
later. I always thought this movie was
from 1992, but it was a 91. Came out almost exactly a year
later and still did quite well, although not as big as the first
one. I think I wrote it down
78,000,000 for the second film, so still a big success.
Not as much as the first one, but in addition to box office,
people had had time to ruminate on this first movie being such a
big hit. And I honestly think it like

(07:01):
poisoned the will of like critical discourse around Secret
of the Use 'cause people just came out swinging, they were
ready to not like the movie. Yeah.
I wonder if this is like, I think there was a documentary
about this recently. But also in the 90s, there was
this weird thing where, like, everyone wanted to like, hate
Barney. Do you remember this?
Yes, you were even part of that,I remember you saying.

(07:22):
Well, hang on, I didn't. Start that one.
I was like, turtles good, Barneybad.
We're at 11. Yeah, now I know exactly what
you mean. It was like people really
souring on I just cause was it just that they saw Barney all
over the place and so they just got tired of him?
I don't know. I don't.
Yeah. Maybe it was a it was a backlash

(07:42):
to the success or popularity of something that maybe they didn't
understand because it was aimed at younger audiences.
I couldn't tell you. I maybe got to watch the
documentary. Yeah, yeah.
It's definitely worth investigating because I think
it's a similar phenomenon. I mean, the Ninja Turtles, just
broadly speaking, I know that they were a huge hit by the 90s
because they started as a comic book, which had like kind of a

(08:04):
cult following. And then there was the really
popular like NES game and the hugely popular 80s to 90s
cartoon. That was probably what like
really ballooned their popularity and got them
Greenland for a live action film.
So turtles are everywhere. Turtle mania was like a concept.
It was like a real commercial thing.
Yeah, I think I remember the animated series too after the

(08:26):
first movie came out. Like in the intro to the show
which has that like iconic catchy theme song they like
started splicing in clips of thelive action Ninja Turtles into
the animated shows intro which Ialways thought was super neat.
It is neat. It was very much like a shared
moment in time because I think the way I often hear it's

(08:47):
surmised is that the Turtles like pushed so hard into
merchandising and spin offs thatthey like kind of overstayed
their welcome. And then that's why there was a
bit of a drop off. But it was still at its peak in
91. And I honestly think that like
the two things that stand out from reading like a dozen or
more professional film critics reviews of the movie in the
weekend where it came out, there's 2 problems that they had

(09:10):
going in. First, there was some sort of
hubbub going in that the Turtlespromoted violence to children.
That was the big one. And the second one that I'll get
into later is that I think people were concerned that
turtle mania wouldn't end and they were trying to, like,
torpedo it so they didn't have to go see another one.

(09:30):
It's just going to be like this forever, just turtles all the
time. They were like, Oh my God, the
Turtle cinematic universe is going to go on for 20 years
because that's how they talk about it.
But I want to start on the violence one because to me as
someone who watched both movies a lot as a kid, it's an insane
take that the first Turtles movie was fine and the second

(09:51):
one is too violent. Like Frank.
You can explain this to the people if they haven't seen it.
What is the main difference between the tones of the 1st and
2nd Turtles movie? Well, I mean, just in regards to
the violence. I remember they because this was
the thing in the animated seriestoo.
It was really strange. They like Michelangelo, his

(10:13):
signature weapon is the nunchucks, but they took those
away from him in the cartoon andgave him like a grappling hook.
I think because they were like nunchucks, too dangerous, even
though one of the other characters literally has swords.
So I don't know how that makes any sense.
But then it was the same case for the second film where there
there was like a specific note to turn down the violence.

(10:37):
And so I think they almost neveruse their actual weapons on
people in the second movie. They still do a lot of like
martial arts maneuvers, but it'sa little more wacky.
Like the whole opening sequence.They're using like other props
and stuff to kind of like fend off the bad guys.
But I I don't think they, I don't know if it's not at all or

(11:00):
just a lot less, But that was like a note from the first movie
heading into the second one was yes, violence bad Barney, bad
violence bad Barney, bad turtles.
Good. Yes.
To me that's always been the biggest difference.
The original 1990 Turtles film Ithink shocked certain audiences
who'd only ever seen the cartoonbecause it carried in some of

(11:22):
the more like noir comic book influence from the original
like. Oh, the source material is dark.
It's a dark, dark comic series, Yeah.
Yeah, it's like Batman. Like the whole thing is it's
like a joke. It's like Batman, but they're
like giant mutant walking, talking turtles, you know, And
the first movie, like carried insome of that, like self
seriousness and actually is likekind of genuinely dramatic,

(11:45):
which is what a lot of people like about that one.
Whereas the second movie much more heavily embraces like the
cartoon's comedic tone. The turtles are like sillier.
They're having more fun. And to your point, like Leo
still has his two Cortana blades, but he never hits
anybody with them. He'll just like throw them into
the ceiling and then kick him inthe head.
Yeah, yeah. So that's what you and I think

(12:06):
and I think is what anybody looking back on the series would
say now. But going into the release of
Secret of the Use, even professional famous film critic
Roger Ebert, for example, just does not care.
He doesn't care what's in the movie.
He's he's already decided that they're too violent.
Like if you go back and you readthe reviews on his website for
the first Turtles film in 1990, he mentions that there is

(12:28):
concerns about violence, but he says quote and the violence is
fairly routine as these things go, stylized and not very
graphic. That's his description of the
first movie. His entire review of Secret of
the Use is about how horribly upsetting and violent it is.
The second movie. The second one, he's he.
He goes off on Secret of the use.

(12:49):
He gave it one star and he genuinely says that the turtles
are like contributing to like the moral rot of America's
youth. He thinks they're like sinister
creatures. These big green.
I can't believe Barney did this.He made this.
Movie Barney would take this, but like right away I'm like

(13:10):
Ebert is one of the most like well known film critics.
He wrote for the Chicago Sun Times, local celebrity in
Chicago. People respect his opinion not
'cause they always agreed with him, but because they respected
like his. You could kind of gauge things
based on your knowledge of how he viewed films.
And I just thought right off thebat, like his review secretly
used is just like petulant. He's so angry that it exists and

(13:32):
has been convinced by what was probably a year or more of
public conversation that these films were promoting violence,
even though he watched the firstone and thought it was fine.
Well, I mean, as we brought up before, he watches Inferman
weekly. He just can't stop thinking
about Inferman. And that is just that did come

(13:53):
out when we talked about. Inferman that's true.
It's just shaped his whole perception of of violence.
It's just he just doesn't understand anymore.
I I can't believe this though. I, I don't know, like, did he
forget he saw the first movie? Did he forget he's seen any
other movies? Why did he think that the second
film was so violent? Because it's not.

(14:15):
It's bizarre. It's so much less so.
It's overtly comedic and takes away any sort of like, dangerous
aspects like in the first film. Like there's threats of physical
violence, April O'neil's apartment burns down, like
Raphael almost dies and they have to like nurse him back to
health. Nothing remotely that serious
happens in the second film, but he just was adamant that the

(14:36):
turtles, like as characters werebad for America.
Like let me see if I can find another good quote here.
First off, Ebert thinks that theturtles come from the NES game
because he says here quote. All that differentiates them in
the Nintendo game that gave themtheir berth is their weapons.
It's as if the whole sum of a character's personality is

(14:59):
expressed by the way he does violence.
The turtles are an example of the hazard of individuality.
What does that even mean? Hazard of whoa, hang on now he's
getting like into some, I don't even know, philosophical
manifesto type stuff here. Yes, he's pissed.

(15:19):
He was so mad at this movie to the point where it just clouded
any real conversation about what's actually happening in it.
It's like he could have written that review before he watched
it, you know? Yeah, I do like that, he says.
The Nintendo game that they camefrom, like they came to life
from this Nintendo game and madetheir own movie like.
And like, we have to put a stop to him.

(15:40):
A small boy told me that Barney's responsible for this.
Yeah, I can't keep getting away.Maybe he played the Nintendo
game because it's notoriously difficult and he was like.
He did. He did actually, if you go back
to read his first review. I don't have a quote about it,
but he mentions that he tried playing the NES game and
couldn't get past level 2 and I'm like now I know.
No, see, OK, I see the order of events now.

(16:01):
He saw the first movie. He was like, that was all right,
I'm going to go play the the source material.
Obviously this Nintendo game. And then it was too hard.
And he's like, if you ever make a sequel to this movie, I'm
going to use I'm going to throw throw my weight around as Roger
Ebert. Roger E is going to come in and
he's going to sink this. Movie.
He's going to nunchuck this movie.
Give it one star. And then surrender my nunchucks

(16:23):
to the police because I'm not a bad person.
This seems like it was at the peak of like when the media was
obsessed with talking about like, video games are bad,
they're too violent. That's what's causing all the
violence, not all the actual real problems in the country,
but video games are the. Problem pretty much.
I just was so stunned by that review alone because Ebert's

(16:45):
someone who, again, I don't agree with his perspective on
everything and he's reviewed like 10,000 movies, so of course
he's going to have a bad take every now and again.
But right away I'm like, that's one of the reviews that gets
totalled into the films like Rotten Tomatoes score, you know
what I mean? And all of a sudden you're like,
well, what was everyone else say?
Like, did anybody engage with this film in a more like sincere
way? How long has Rotten Tomatoes

(17:07):
been around? That's a great question.
I don't know how long it's been around, but it does
retroactively pull critical reviews from when the movies
were made. Oh interesting.
OK because that's how I found this actually.
I think I went through either Metacritic or RT and just would
like link back to published reviews.
I actually had to go through a whole rigmarole to find the Gene
Siskel review in the Chicago Tribune because it wasn't like

(17:28):
widely accessible. I think I had to like sign up
for the Tribune and now they won't stop emailing me just
because I wanted to find an article from 1991.
What? Oh Siskel of Siskel and Ebert
his his partner. In in his own poem in Cry Yeah,
Ebert with your nunchucks. And So what did Siskel?
Say, I was going to say, I thinkI had that further down.

(17:51):
Let's see what Gene Siskel said.So in the Sun Times, March 22nd,
1991, the weekend the movie cameout, Siskel also gave Turtles to
one star. And his review was like, not as
scathing. He just seemingly found the
movie boring. Although he did reiterate the
point that, like parents were concerned about violence and he
can understand why. So he didn't rebuke that either.

(18:13):
He was like, no, the movie is super violent.
And the more I read, the more I realized that in my eyes, the
reason secret of the use is lessviolent is because they don't
stab people or use like blades and the ramifications of the
violence are less severe. But I think what these people
are seeing in 91 was the martialarts itself as like less of a

(18:34):
choreography and more of just like really violent action.
Because, you know, this was before, like, the Jackie Chan
films had like really made theirway over and martial arts was
still kind of just like a niche genre of film making that was
mostly international. So I honestly think people like
Siskel just saw them doing like karate kicks and were like, Oh
my God. This is so horrendous.
Yeah, it's like he kicked that man in the head.

(18:57):
He can't do that. He can't do that.
That foot ninja is dead. He could have been
rehabilitated, but now he's beenkicked to death by a giant.
Turtle, we're supposed to send that man to jail and go through
the courts, not kick him in the head.
I mean, probably, probably a fairpoint.

(19:18):
They're just like, what's all this Kung Fu business and why is
that rat teaching him this? I gotta get these rats out of
the. Streets teaching our kids Kung
Fu. Yeah, you see your child
learning from a rat, and he's like, oh, no.
I will say Siskel also highlights the other aspect of

(19:38):
this where he First off, he calls the movie depressing.
He he yes, because the violence he thinks that the turtles
resorting to what you and I would see as a dance like action
sequence of like karate and acrobatics is them just like
beating the hell out of somebody.
He doesn't like the comedy he likes.

(19:59):
He said it's occasionally the comedy lands, but mostly
doesn't. And then he mentions that even
though he hated this movie, he laments that it will probably
become a long running film franchise.
So that's the other angle. He's like, I got to end things
here or else we're going to be seeing Ninja Turtles for the
rest of my life. Correct the timeline, although
you know what they're totally right because turtles much like

(20:24):
like Pokémon, you know, there was a pokey mania turtle mania.
They had their peak and then forsure dips from that, but never
really went away. And now of both had somewhat
major resurgences. And that's always been kind of
interesting to me because I havefriends around my age who have
like kids now and like their kids are like super into like

(20:49):
Pokémon and Ninja Turtles. And I'm like, that's the same
thing I grew up on. Like the stuff just never went
away. Like.
But, you know, I mean, it's, it's like, obviously the parents
are the ones showing these kids this.
And, you know, they're, this is what I was into and, you know,
we're going to watch this. But those properties have
persisted. There's been so many iterations
of the Ninja Turtles. I'm almost positive there's a

(21:12):
Ninja Turtles TV show airing right now.
Oh, they just greenlit a baby turtle show.
Did you see that? I definitely did not.
What does that? Mean they did like baby puppet
babies but it's literally calledlike teenage baby Ninja Turtles
or something. Teenage baby mutant Ninja
Turtles. They just keep mixing the words
up. Are they actually?
It would be awesome if they wereactual Muppets.

(21:33):
Oh no, no, no. It's, it's a lazy cartoon like
CG thing. But if they were Muppets, yeah,
that'd be awesome. That would be great because the
characters in these live action films, they're stuntmen in
suits, but then they also have like animatronic heads that were
made by the Jim Henson Company. Yeah, that's really awesome.
Yeah. Because they made the 2010

(21:54):
Turtles movies where they all looked like giant Optimus
Primes. Those turtles were scary, that
was. Scary ugly.
Hideous. That was the strangest iteration
of those characters I've ever seen like and then there was two
of those movies and I frankly, that was off putting to me.
They need to be kind of cute still while they're beating

(22:15):
people's heads in and and sending.
Well, at their hospital, sendingthose poor poor foot ninjas to
the hospital. It is kind of funny because the
turtles are teenagers, but also those foot ninjas are teenagers
as well. That's like a whole plot beat,
especially in the first film, isthat the Foot Clan is being
essentially supported by all these disaffected teens who are
being turned to a life of crime and then folded in to become

(22:36):
ninjas. Yeah.
Why are these critics not mad about that?
They're they're more mad that the kids are going to turn into
turtles. Like that's.
Yeah, they're going. To turn into Barneys and
Turtles, that's what I mean. If you watched either of these
films, I would say even going back to the first one, which
Ebert didn't care about at all. He he literally said like this
is about as good as a Turtles movie as you could make.
He was totally fine with it. And in that one, the entire

(22:57):
point of the film is to contrastSplinter, who's like a good
father figure to these young boys, with Shredder, who is a
nefarious father figure that uses that like, desire for
approval from these young kids to make them literally go do
crime. And it's like about parenting
and like, how to kind of deal with the inherent boundless
energy of, like, teenage boys and like, trying to steer them

(23:19):
in the right direction. But then everybody saw it was
just like, leave the foot alone.Stop picking them.
Yeah, Siskel saw that, and he's like, clearly the rat is just
better at teaching violence to the turtles than than the other
guy, so there. Was a thing in the Ebert review
that was like kids who like these movies.
This isn't a quote, but it's like a paraphrasing Run the risk

(23:39):
of growing up to star in videos of police brutality like people.
He thought that I was going to leave the theatre after watching
it. Or maybe you because you would
have been the right age to go see it.
Go leave the theatre and then just like punch the nearest guy
you see on the street and then just shout cowabunga and then.
I mean, I did do that a few times, but like mind your

(24:00):
business, Siskel, like. Just so aggressive.
It's just so like heightened thevitriol against what was a
fairly banal kids movie. It wasn't everybody, though.
I will say I have other reviews sourced of people who definitely
saw the change that they were making.
Let me pull one up. So there was a review from

(24:22):
Michael Sauter in Entertainment Weekly published looks like a
couple months later, maybe he gave the film AC Plus.
And he I just kind of have like bullet points about his
thoughts. Noted that the film did
intentionally tone down the violence and that the second
movie he phrased it as like, this is one that you can safely
leave to, you know, babysit yourkids at home.

(24:45):
Like he was essentially like, can this just come out on VHS so
that I could put it on to distract my child.
But he also knows he. It's OK to just leave.
Leave your kids at home unsupervised.
Just make sure Ninja Turtles 2 is on.
Not the first one, not. The first one, what do you mean
jokes that it's like an electronic babysitter, But
again, it feeds into the other thing where they're like I think
he mentions. Can the next one just come out

(25:05):
straight to video so I don't have to see it?
That's the whole angle. They're like, we know that the
kids will love Ninja Turtles until the day they die.
It'll last 100 lifetimes, but I'm sick of it and there's only
been two of them. Yeah, it's just the 90's, the
90's, the 90's, the 90's. The 90s were a time where there

(25:30):
was like unprecedented levels ofmarketing towards kids, I think.
True, it was I I think this was new I I think I could be wrong,
but I don't believe there was any time prior or really maybe
as much since where there was somuch media aimed at kids so much

(25:52):
of like toys and movies and action figures.
And it was like, there was just a realization that there was a
lot of money to be made there off like what kids were
interested in. And it seems like these are
people that are struggling to deal with that.
I mean, I genuinely, I think that maybe it was part of the
reason people are mad at Barney.People are mad at the turtles or

(26:15):
Pokémon or whatever it may have been because it it was sort of
unprecedented prior to this. Yeah.
As as a kid growing up in the 90s, it was awesome.
I'm like, yeah, give me all thisstuff.
All this stuff exactly, but I can see it being a like endless
conveyor belt of kids asking forthings from you that you don't
want to spend money on. Like, pointless tie insurance
and toys and Happy Meals and allthat stuff.

(26:37):
So yeah, it's like a cultural context for about when the movie
came out that manages to make its way into what are supposed
to be fairly straightforward, just reviews of what that movie
is. Yeah, I also think your point
about the martial arts not beingsomething that these critics
would have been familiar with atthe time probably did play a big
part too. Just genuinely not being able to

(27:01):
discriminate between the types of violence and the
characterization of how like martial arts was used to teach
these rebellious teenagers discipline.
Because that's kind of part of the the theming of the movie.
It's actually funny to to kind of bring it back to that idea
again. So Siskel or not Siskel Ebert

(27:21):
wrote for the Chicago Sun Times.There's also a review from a
different critic about the same movie, Dave Care.
Same day, because again, newspapers used to have a lot of
movie content in them. There was like three articles
about this movie in the same issue.
It was like 2 reviews. And then there was one about how
you could go see the stunt performers.
Like if you went to see the filmat a local specific theater in
Chicago, like some of the stunt actors were there doing like

(27:43):
martial arts demonstrations. Oh that's awesome.
Wait, can we go? When is this?
Missed it by about 35 years and two months.
Dang, next time. Close, but Dave care from the
sun times actually was very glowing about secret views.

(28:05):
Ironically almost too much. He he like glazes it too hard.
Gave it a three out of four and was the only person that I found
a review from who's who mentioned any sort of
familiarity with like Japanese and Hong Kong martial arts
films. And I think that immediately
helps understand like what we'resaying that if you're used to
that as a genre, the turtles movies don't seem hyper violent.

(28:27):
They just seem like they have choreography again, almost like
a dance. Because he mentions even
specifically, I think Golden Harvest produced these films,
which are the same company that produced all those like classic
Jackie Chan movies in Hong Kong.Oh, that's neat.
I didn't know that. Exactly.
There's a connecting thread there.
And at the end of his review, care even like says like, I hope

(28:47):
the success of these films convinces Golden Harvest to
release some of these Jackie Chan movies, for example, like
in the US And that's exactly what would happen.
Wow, so he was a real 1. He saw the potential here.
He's a real one, but again, he might be like 2 ride or die for
this movie because he tries to explain that the like metaphors

(29:08):
in the story in the second one are on par with classic Disney.
In what way does he elaborate onthat?
Or is he just like Cinderella equals Michelangelo?
The end. Says that they both tackle
metaphors about like how children deal with adolescence.
I have a quote here where he says that Secret of the Use
shows the turtles quote sitting on a powder keg of nervous,

(29:31):
antsy energy that could be turned toward either anarchy or
idealism, which is accurate. That is what the movies are
about. But he then compares it to like
classic 90. I I wouldn't say this goes
anywhere near like Lion King, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Although that wasn't out yet, so
he wouldn't have been talking about that.
He'd been talking about probablyAlex Cinderella.
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't think he's that

(29:53):
far off base. He's just talking about the
thematic content of the movie. I suppose.
It's maybe high praise, but. It is high praise, but I just
think that proves our point. Someone who's familiar with
martial arts action as a conceptwould not be so put off by the
violence quote UN quote in the movie.
So where these movies met? Or I guess the second one

(30:14):
specifically with almost universally negative reviews
outside. As far as I could tell, this one
real one. Yeah, this one real guy mostly
mixed to negative. I think the first film, if you
looked right now I don't have itin front of me, the Rotten
Tomatoes from critics is higher.And I feel like the reaction to
that seems almost like people are surprised that it was almost

(30:35):
like a real movie. You know what I mean?
That like had characters and drama and what actually even
kind of works on an adult, like as a dramatic story just mixed
in with all this silly comedy. And the second one, I think just
people were just tired of it. They didn't like that the
turtles are still around. Where's the, I found it even
funnier quote from Janet Maslin,who was writing for the New York

(30:55):
Times, who was like very harsh towards the movie.
And she said, quote, if the Turtles insist on remaining a
mainstream box office attraction, at least they've now
had the decency to make a mainstream movie.
So again, they don't like that first one, and they make them
very apprehensive about the other one.
They're like, stop making me feel things about these

(31:16):
disgusting turtles. I like that they keep blaming it
on like the turtles themselves too.
Like these video game charactershave to come to life and start
filming their lives documentary style in two films.
At least they made a good one this time.
What did she say? She's saying that again that
they toned down the violence andup to the comedy and made it
safer for children like that is a lot of the concern is people

(31:39):
took young kids to see the firstone and were shocked that it was
not as carefree as the cartoon. Man, forget them kids.
That's. The thing like kids like it.
Yeah, yeah, they like it. They like it, they like it.
Never mind, they like it. They like it.

(32:01):
Vanilla Ice was the was. What did they have to say about
Vanilla Ice in the second? The one I'm surprised about
South, for anyone who maybe hasn't seen Secret of These in a
while, the way that movie ends is they're fighting these other
mutated monsters, Toca and Razar.
They accidentally spill over into a nightclub that exists on
a dirty dock outside where people are fishing because for

(32:22):
some reason that's where people want to go dancing.
And Vanilla Ice is performing his own music on stage and he
sees the turtles and improvises an entire song and dance with
his backup dancers in four seconds about the turtles.
I don't even think he communicates with them.
I think they just know the choreography is just in their,
it's in their soul. It's it's in their soul.

(32:42):
It's a great shot actually, where he's like nodding along
because the same backing beat isplaying and then him and the
dancers leap into the choreography all at once.
And it's like cool and fun. And that's where he sings the Go
ninja go ninja Go, which is verymuch a lasting part of this
movie. Not one critic talked about how
surreal and insane that is that in the context of the story,

(33:02):
Vanilla Ice is just like an omnipotent rapper who can just
come up with verses about anything and knows a lot about
the Turtles already. They're like, that's how video
games work, OK? These characters, they came to
life from a Super Nintendo game,made their own movie.
They have an omnipotent rapper. We've all been through this
before. It's Disney.
It's Disney. It's Cinderella.
The rat is teaching them about pizza.

(33:25):
Teaching them about pizza, pizzais OK, pizza is OK.
No concerns about the kids diet.They're just like, listen, the
violence, that's one thing. Eating pizza all the time, go
for it. That's that's.
Great, too. That's the best part of the
secret of the use is the openingmontage of every single person
in New York City eating pizza outside.

(33:45):
That's what I'm saying. It's like so fun that.
Pizza has looks delicious by theway that they're eating.
I don't know who made that. I want some The production value
of both of these movies is actually quite high.
They're like the cinematography that there's tons of night
cinematography in New York City.It looks great.

(34:07):
There's there's whole sets that they've built, like the
underground train set that the turtles go to live in in that
second movie looks amazing. It's shot really well.
It has this really hazy look. There's a ton of props, a ton of
detail, like to sell that kind of classic, like 90s clutter

(34:29):
that all the kids movies had. Yes, yes, there is really
strong, competent filmmaking happening in both of those
movies. The first one is honestly, as
you mentioned earlier, dramatic in an interesting way.
The second one leads a little bit more into the comedic fun
side, but is also just supremelyentertaining.

(34:51):
Yeah, Bodacious. It's bodacious.
It's radical. Yeah, that's my thing with all
of this. It's like I'm not surprised when
I go online and I see that both films, I think the first one's
OK, but the second film has likea 40% or something critic score.
But then I look at what the critics are saying and I'm like,
no, you're all wrong. Most of you have very odd qualms

(35:13):
about this and are not really giving credit to what the movie
does well, because I think both of these are just straight up
good films and unless you reallyhate the overall bit with the
turtles talking like silly surfer dudes, like there's so
much to like about them. Which they don't even lean too
heavily into that. I would say the the turtles

(35:35):
individually are characterized very well in those films too.
You know their personalities. I would say even better in the
second one because they do a good job of showing the
individual qualities but having them all still act like 4
brothers who get along. Like they all kind of
participate in the silliness in a more like even way.

(35:56):
And just honestly to bring it back around to like American
martial arts films, because that's a genre that's not, you
know, outside of like a lot of maybe John Claude Van Damme
movies or like Canon films, not a lot in that catalog.
A lot of like traditional martial arts films will come
from like China mostly. And like the action choreography

(36:22):
is great in these movies too. It's one of the better ones in
that regard as well. So I think that's that's worth
noting too. The movie, yeah, the action in
the movies holds up great. Some very, very impressive stunt
work. And the second one even elevates
Ernie Reyes, who was a stunt actor in the first film and
makes him Keno, who's like the Turtles new friend in this one.
So they even acknowledge like how crucial that is to the

(36:44):
storytelling here. And then they let him show off
just as himself. Yeah, totally.
Yeah, it's amazing. This was a note actually.
I had this I I took notes watching the movie after I was
done. Outside of this context about
the critics response, it feels to me watching it like Keno was
originally written as a different type of character who
did not himself know martial arts.
Because if you look at like his first couple of scenes, he

(37:07):
really specifically has this kind of like a like New Yorkie
guy quality to how he like what he's saying and like how he's
interacting with other characters that slowly like
gives way to. I'm a very disciplined martial
artist. Like his first line of dialogue
strikes me because it's so bizarre.
He's a pizza delivery guy. He's going to deliver a pizza to
April O'Neil. He's about to meet the turtles,

(37:28):
but he gets on his little moped and he looks at these two women
on the corner and he's like, which one of you ladies wants to
ride with me tonight? And then they say no.
And he, like, fat shames them asa joke where he's just like,
they're like, dream on, dweeb. And he says, yeah, but when I
do, I'll dream of something a little thinner.
And then just laughs and drives away.
And I'm like, that's crazy for this character.
Given the rest of the movie, it seems so different at the

(37:49):
beginning. Yeah.
But then the very next scene that's I think that's
intentionally done because then the very next scene is he shows
up, he sees those guys robbing the place and they're just like,
oh, let's beat up this pizza guy.
And then he starts busting out some sweet Kung Fu moves on him.
And he's like, did I mention I know martial arts?
So it's like, I think, an intentional subversion of the

(38:10):
type of character you expect himto be.
Yeah, I guess maybe the other way to put it is I like that he
has multiple layers because he also kind of like there's a
scene where he knows that the turtles live in April's
apartment and he's trying to prove it, where he kind of like
muscles his way to get into where it like she is so we can
look for him. And even that like he's being
very kind of like prodding and like a little rude.

(38:31):
And I'm like, that's kind of funny to me that this small,
like somewhat meek character whothen shows all these martial
arts moves. Also it's like a little bit of a
bully. Like that's such a funny like
extra bit of flair on a a relatively minor role.
He, he's featured in a lot of that movie.
He's not the POV character. Obviously it's not called Kino,

(38:51):
the secret of the use, but. Why not?
Could have been, but he plays a great role.
He's in a significant amount of the movie and his character is a
lot of fun, especially because Ithink he was just kind of
created for that film. I don't think he exists in any
other Turtles Canon, although that would be a fun character to
bring back. Like if they did like a modern

(39:11):
cartoon in like Keno showed up, that would be pretty great.
That would be pretty good, yeah.Especially, he essentially takes
on the role that in other Turtles media is filmed by Casey
Jones, who's just like another human friend of the Turtles who
can fight with them. Because Casey's in the first
film and then comes back in the third one.
But for this one, they were likeKeno.
And I do respect it because it'sfunny.
Yeah, no, Keno's great. Keno's great.

(39:33):
And he, I think as you mentioned, he was one of the he
was one of the turtles. He was one of the stunt
performers in the first movie. And then, yeah, just got bumped
up, bumped up the card on this one.
Bumped up the card. OK, I have one more recurring
narrative about the critic reviews of Secret of the Use
that I found odd. This is a smaller one, but a
multiple people said in their reviews they wanted to highlight

(39:57):
that the actress for April O'Neil changed in between the
1st and the second movie from Judith Hogue to Paige Turco got
recast. And I will say right off the
bat, I read, I don't know how ifthis is confirmed, but it's I
saw it in multiple places that the reason Judith Hogue was not
even asked to return. As April in the second film is
that she had trouble with the producers in the first one

(40:20):
because she would like give thema hard time about like the
filming conditions for the stuntperformers.
Like she was essentially advocating for the other like
performers on the production andabout like some of the shortcuts
being taken by the by the like film makers themselves.
And so they just like blackmailed her and didn't let
her back for the next one, whichI'm like, that's what April
O'Neil would do. Yeah, yeah.

(40:41):
Action News reporter April O'Neil that's IA 100% believe
that that's true. I wonder who who revealed that
Did she say that after the fact?I.
Don't think she confirmed it. I'm annoyed because it's in.
I have so many notes on this andI don't remember where I wrote
the details of that part down, but I'm fairly certain that's

(41:02):
been reported in multiple places.
Is that she was not asked to return because she wrote people
the wrong way by essentially doing what the character April
O'deal would do. Or just like a good person or
somebody who. Is a.
Professional and has is familiarwith the standards of how our
production should be run and they're like, you know what,
don't bother coming back next time, said the.

(41:25):
Discovery producer. That was a bummer.
I'm like I liked I like both of them.
I think like in isolation, both the people who play April do a
good job. And I do like that they update
April's presentation in the second film because story wise,
in the first one, she's is againat odds with her news producers
and then at the end gets promoted and they make a whole
thing about how like you're the highest paid newscaster in town,

(41:46):
April. And so in the second movie, like
her costuming changes, her apartment's a lot nicer.
It like makes sense that the character has progressed.
But what I found weird is that multiple people went out of
their way to highlight that theylike the new actress better who
plays April because she's prettier in their eyes.
Oh my gosh, I'm like what the heck, What a weird thing to say.

(42:08):
Like, yeah, that's, I mean, thatsays more about the people
critiquing these movies than anything else.
That that's that's. What I mean, like, it's such a
90s thing again, Like, you wouldnot see that presented that way
now, Like, where's the one there's an article from?
OK, so Janet Maslin, again, the New York Times columnist, has a

(42:29):
quote where she says, like everything else in the second
installment, April looks better largely because she's played by
a different actress and makes noattempt to resemble her earlier
counterpart. And then, like, at least two
other ones specifically say, like, pretty actress Paige Turko
takes over as April. And I was like, First off,
they're both Hollywood actresses.
They're both pretty. Like, what a weird thing to say.

(42:51):
Also it honestly think I think it's just 'cause she dresses in
like fancy business attire in the second one.
Yeah, I mean that just I feel like that just kind of devalues
your previous argument if your critics saying well, this is bad
because of violence and not for kids or whatever, but also this
actress is hotter, I guess like I.

(43:12):
Just was so like dismissive and rude to both people involved.
I also thought it was interesting because, again, part
of my conspiratorial angle on this is that critics were
affronted that the first film made them feel something because
it was like kind of a real moviethat was a little bit genuinely
dramatic. And I also think that they
didn't like the first actress because she had genuine on

(43:35):
screen chemistry with Casey Jones in the first film.
Like there's like an actual sexual tension between those two
characters in that movie and I think.
An intense sexual tension between.
Casey Jones. I think that's what they were
mad about. I think they were like, I went
to see the Turtles movie and then April O'Neil made me feel
things and now I'm mad. And so then they recast her and

(43:56):
they were like, good. I didn't like her anyway.
Yeah, yeah, that. I mean, Oh my gosh, those scenes
at the farmhouse between, Yeah, Elias Coteus and Judith Hoag.
It's great. It's like an enemies to lovers
trope from like a like somebody's fan fiction.
Yes, it's good. And it's another layer to that
first movie that feels sort of like authentic.

(44:16):
The second movie is intentionally silly and like
much more specifically for children.
But the first time just kind of has everything.
And I think that's what I like about it so much.
Like it's a watchable movie for fans of the Turtles themselves
or fans of martial arts or just fans of 90s cinema.
It just works. Yeah, I've always kind of
thought like the second movie. I've seen a lot more and is more

(44:40):
fun or funny in some ways, but the first movie is a better
film. It's just really solid.
I do appreciate the second one though.
Like, I was seeing it at a theatre, which I'd never done,
and multiple times the movie gotlike a legit laugh, like out of
the audience, even though I'm sure a lot of them had seen it
before. Like there's a bit where RAF
gets captured by the by the Shredder and the other turtles

(45:02):
are like sneaking into the junkyard to find him.
And they keep commenting on like, oh, there's nobody here.
They're like, oh, it's quiet. Yeah, a little too quiet, and
they do it a couple times. And then when they see RAF, they
go, it's RAF, and then Mikey goes, yeah, a little too RAF.
And that kind of like a legit big laugh from everybody in the
room. And I'm like, it's because it's
funny. It's a funny movie.
Because it's funny. Yeah.
Yeah. So yeah, the April O'Neil thing.

(45:23):
Bizarre. I think the only person who
spoke highly of the original wasa staff writer for the
Washington Post named Donna Britt.
Her article was interesting, it was written as if she was having
a conversation about the movie with her young son who went and
saw it with her. I don't believe that.
Like I think she just summarizedit, but it's written almost as

(45:43):
dialogue. OK, that's interesting.
So she was complimentary of Judith Hogue as April O'Neil
she. Was and I think was probably the
only person to both acknowledge that the second movie did dumb
things down but also look at like what was lost in doing so.
This is probably the longest quote I have, but I thought it
was really interesting. So she says, quote.

(46:05):
The first film was more mystical, darker, with more
allusions to Eastern religion. It spent more time encouraging
kids to be patient and to find strength within themselves.
Director Michael Pressman made the sequel brighter, sunnier,
much more like a traditional kids cartoon.
Parents will like that there's no cursing.
I do miss Hogue, who brought some much needed female energy
to a baby macho movie. But the second TMNT has enough

(46:27):
jokes aimed at adults to make for a relatively painless outing
for parents forced to take theirkids to see it.
And I'm like, that is the most accurate assessment of the movie
out of anybody here. Yeah, totally.
I mean, I don't what was the actress's name in secret of the
use secret? Of the use, I think it was Paige

(46:47):
Turko. I don't mind Paige Turko as
April O'Neil. I've much preferred Judith Elko
personally. Between the two of them, she's
way better. She's way better.
And as you mentioned too, the chemistry between between her
and Elias Koteas is honestly some of the best on screen
chemistry I've ever seen it. It's amazing.
It's. Surprisingly good for such a
like side aspect of that story. And again, you're talking about

(47:11):
POV characters. April gets to be APOV character
through parts of the first film,whereas in the second one she's
relatively minor. Like she kind of falls out of
the story in the second. She's she's totally sidelined.
Yeah, absolutely. She barely does anything in that
movie. So yeah, I thought that part was
really interesting. When I went in, I knew there'd
be conversations about the violence in the film, about how
like prevalent the turtles were.That's that through line about

(47:33):
April was really stood out to mebecause again, I feel like it
highlighted a little bit of hypocrisy and a little bit of
what made people seemingly uncomfortable with that first
movie was that they were just like, oh gosh, it's a real
movie. And they weren't.
They weren't emotionally ready for Teenage Mutant Ninja
Turtles. Because they're a bunch of
babies. OK, they're a bunch of babies.
Exactly, that's my. You know.

(47:54):
This video is going to be 5 seconds.
I'm going to cut it down to they're a bunch of babies.
They're burbers. There you go.
Before we before we wrap up, just for comparison's sake, I
was like, well, I know what you and I think about the film.
It's awesome. And we've talked about a lot of
the reasons why both the first film and Secret of the Use.
I think they're almost like a good compliment because it

(48:16):
captures both versions of the turtles.
You know, like from their different appearances over the
years. The wait what the first movie
does? Or both movies.
I'm saying that between the 1990film and the sequel Secret of
the Use, we kind of get to see the full scope of how the
Turtles can be performed. Like you see both.

(48:37):
They're more like authentic, serious, like dramatic qualities
and the more overtly comedic, like cartoon side.
And so I don't think that we that either movie should be more
like the other. I like that they're kind of
different. Oh, me too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. What I thought was interesting
because I was like, you know, Frank and I like it.
What what is like common perception now because I think a
lot of time, a lot of the time now, obviously both movies just

(48:57):
came back out in theaters again.People like them, people who are
fans of the Turtles would want to see them again.
And so I just looked up a randomwebsite blog review from 2016,
long after the fact from a website called Cinema Crazed.
It was written by Felix Vasquez and Felix actually had a good
point where I'll get I'll read aquote quote.
Much to the shock of everyone involved. 1990s TMNT movie was a

(49:21):
film for all ages that took violence seriously and depicted
actual consequences to actions and decisions.
And I was like, that's a that's a good point.
The first movie is it not almostbetter for children to show
violence is something that is consequential and not completely
harmless and silly like the second one does.
Like that kind of topples the argument from a lot of the

(49:42):
concerned people as well. Yeah, that's that's completely
valid takedown, I would say. I, I mean, as I said before too,
it's just that era where, I don't know, it was like the
media was trying to blame violence on anything, but any of
the real causes trying to pin iton this is what's corrupting our

(50:05):
youth. And I, and I honestly think it
was just in unfamiliarity with what their kids were being
exposed to. And it kind of ties into what I
was saying about like, friends Iknow that have kids now, they
can show their kids Ninja Turtles and know exactly what it
is. They grew up on the same thing
where it's like our parents had no idea what that was because

(50:26):
they had been exposed to completely different things
through various forms of media. Yeah, it's more of like a a
curation at that point where like you always know that
turtles is safe for children, Pokémon is safe for the
children, whereas if it's a new they're like Bluey.
What's his agenda? Yeah, who is this guy?
He's Australian. I don't like that.
I don't like it. Down under where?
Bluey? Down under where?

(50:48):
Down under what? It's a league with the big Dino.
I know it. Barney's out there.
Barney. There's a Barney movie.
The first Barney movie is not bad.
I'll say it. All right, that's some character
growth because I think you, you were on the Barney hate train
for a time. I don't think I was was.
On the Barney hate. Train.

(51:09):
Our mom has said that you at onepoint really didn't like Barney.
Well, I mean it's what all the other kids was doing.
I was just watching shows and and hitting people so.
People with my nunchuck. Oh, man.
All right. That's that's what I got.
That's my research project. This is what critics said about
Secret of the Use when it was new in theaters.
I think it differs dramatically from how people view the film

(51:31):
now, and I think that many of these complaints would never be
made nowadays, especially with regards to the violence, because
like those Michael Bay Ninja Turtles movies were way worse
about it, as is most things. Mm hmm.
Mm hmm. Gosh, those Michael Bay movies
are so I was like upset when those came out because I was

(51:53):
just, I was like, I don't, I don't want people that think
this is what Ninja Turtles is. It's supposed to be guys in
suits doing martial arts, not these giant weird freaky
monsters things. Yeah, I didn't like that either.
I think there was also the gosh,what's the one from a couple
years ago? It's like Turtles Unleashed or
Mutant Unleashed. What was it?

(52:14):
Got ice cubes in it the animated.
One, people seem to like that one, I haven't seen it, but
that. One that one was.
Pretty well received. I think it it did a good job of
modernizing the turtles where like again, a lot of the
language of the turtles in the 90s was like almost like surfer
slang. Whereas the newer Turtles film
was like, well, the Turtles are kind of hip hop heads and we're

(52:34):
going to lean into that. I'm OK with that though, because
it's, you know, it's a differentera of teenagers.
I mean surf culture stuff was bigger in the 90s than it is
now. Exactly.
Nobody's on ironically saying things are bodacious except for
me. You do save a lot.
I've been meaning to tell you. You got to stop.
You got to stop. It's too much.

(52:55):
Things are not bodacious, they are in.
Fact not they're actually very unbodacious currently.
Couldn't be less bodacious than they are right now.
Bodacious levels are at an all time low.
Radical hasn't been seen in years.
Hasn't been seen in years. We don't even know what happened
to him. Where is he?

(53:16):
Love it. All right.
Well, I'd say that's pretty mucha.
Wrap. Oh, cowabunga, cowabunga.
All right. Cowabunga Yeah, OK, we'll just,
I'll just layer it four times a second.
Hey, let's, let's get it on through.
Let's get the real 1. Then I'll I'll duplicate both of
us and we'll see how it. Sounds.

(53:37):
Oh, OK, yeah. Cowabunga.
Oh, no, no, I'm sorry.

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