March 5, 2025 • 53 mins
Advertising can feel like a guessing game, but the right strategy makes all the difference. In this episode, we sit down with Warren Palley of Palley Advertising, the mastermind behind Cape Cod Gutter Monkeys’ radio success and a key player in helping American Gutter Monkeys franchisees expand their reach.
Warren Palley, of Palley Advertising shares how businesses can find their niche in traditional advertising, why radio still delivers results, and how working with the right advertising partners can make all the difference. From choosing the best stations to negotiating ad placements and maximizing your budget, this episode is packed with insights on making advertising work smarter—not harder.
Listen in and learn how to turn your marketing from an expense into an investment that keeps the phone ringing!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:02):
For small business owners , advertising can feel like a
gamble, an expense that may ormay not pay off, but listen to
how Dennis Siggins of the CapeCod Gutter Monkeys thinks of it.
Dennis (00:11):
One of my lifelong philosophies on advertising, and
especially for the upstartbusiness, for the rookie, is
advertising is expensive only ifit doesn't make the phone ring.
Chris (00:23):
Hello and welcome to Monkey Business Radio, episode
10, advertising your SmallBusiness.
Today we're diving into theworld of traditional advertising
with a true expert who has beeninstrumental in building the
Cape Cod gutter monkey brand.
He's now helping Americangutter monkey franchises do the
same.
Warren Pally, founder of PallyAdvertising, has decades of
experience in traditional media,specializing in radio, tv and
(00:45):
print advertising, crafting theradio campaigns that have made
Bobby Downspout a household nameon Cape Cod.
His expertise in radioadvertising has helped American
Gutter Monkey franchises connectwith their communities, drive
business and grow their brands.
From securing the best adplacements to making the most of
value-added opportunities,warren shares how businesses can
maximize every dollar and standout in a crowded market.
(01:07):
We have a great show, so grab acup of coffee, sit back, relax
and welcome to Monkey BusinessRadio.
Hello Warren, welcome to theshow.
Warren (01:20):
Good afternoon everybody .
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Chris (01:23):
Yeah, we're really excited to have you here.
I always ask this question toget started.
How did you get mixed up withthe gutter monkeys?
Warren (01:30):
Well, we were all in jail.
No, that's a different storyfor a different day.
Well, I've had an advertisingagency since 1982.
I started in Worcester.
I've had an advertising agencysince 1982.
I started in Worcester.
I grew the company over theyears.
At one point we had about 18people working with us all over
(01:52):
New England.
We handled advertising all overNew England.
And then, about 2008, we boughta house on the Cape and decided
to start finding some businessdown here and I was lucky enough
to meet our senior accountexecutive, laurie Oteri.
I was working for Cape CodBroadcasting down here and she
(02:13):
was calling on us and I used tosay to her I always thought she
was good from the moment we metand I said if you ever want to
take a trip over to the darkside and you want to come to
work for us, let me know.
And about a year and a half,two years later she finally said
to me do you still want me?
And I said yeah, absolutely.
And Laurie's been one of thebest additions we've had at
(02:35):
Pally Advertising in many yearsand she's really grown the cake
business and she went over andbrought a sheet cake on the
first anniversary of the GutterMonkeys to.
Dennis (02:47):
Dennis' house.
She actually gave me a house atthe time.
Warren (02:49):
The office was still at home, yeah, I mean, it's the
personal touch that still worksand a lot of people don't do it
anymore, but it still does workand it got Dennis' attention.
Dennis (03:00):
It sure did yeah.
Warren (03:01):
And next, thing, I know we are working with the Gutter
Monkeys and their franchisees onall their radio.
Yeah, wow.
Chris (03:07):
Yeah, so it started with a sheet cake.
Pretty impressive, it startedwith a sheet cake exactly.
It's been 10 years now, 10years of advertising 11.
Dennis (03:15):
Actually, we're halfway through our 11th year, wow.
But the truth of the matter is,at the time I think we were on
we, the Cape Cod Gutter Monkeyswe're one location.
At the time we were on fourradio stations, all the four
iHearts, and when that is thecase there's a half a dozen
(03:36):
other radio stations on the Cape, they start calling you up
because they want to get you toadvertise on their radio station
and I was hearing from this oneand that one and we really were
happy with what we had.
If Lori, who was working for CCBMedia at the time and they own
and operate four stations if shehad sent me an email, picked up
(03:58):
the phone and called, Iprobably would have clicked
through or delete, delete,delete, you know.
But we came back to the shopwhich at the time was the garage
next to my house and my wifewas the office manager at the
time which we were running outof one of the extra bedrooms in
the house, and she said a prettyyoung girl came by and dropped
(04:20):
off a big sheet cake for us andI think we probably had five of
us Andy, me and three people inthe field and Barbara in the
office and it was acongratulations or one-year
anniversary cake and that got myattention and I called her back
.
Chris (04:37):
What a great old-school move, yeah, and a day of age of
cell phones and emails andtexting people back and forth.
It's that little personal touch, that kind of turned the tide,
even something as simple as ahandwritten note.
Warren (04:50):
Thank you for your time.
It was great to meet you.
When was the last time youreceived a handwritten note?
Thank you.
Note in the mail.
Yeah, it's going to get yourattention because you just don't
see them anymore.
Dennis (05:01):
Yeah, and, by the way, as we move forward with this
podcast today, remember that asheet cake which has been around
since, you know, for hundredsof years.
That was the contact the sheetcake, and we're kind of going to
bounce around and talk aboutsome marketing strategies, I
think, today.
I don't know, chris, but wedon't really script it too much
here.
But, yeah, just just keep thatin mind, just the oldest fashion
(05:25):
type of a thing.
Chris (05:26):
Yeah, we keep seeing this over and over again.
We keep talking aboutinnovation, how innovative this
company is and how innovativethe people we work with are, but
a lot of times it's these oldschool things that are now where
the real innovation is.
The actual riding a car andsaying thank you can blame you.
A lot of business that'sinnovative.
Warren (05:46):
Well, what I learned too .
You know what I learned, chris,from Laurie.
And coming down to the Cape ingeneral, the Cape is a different
world unto itself when it comesto marketing down here than it
does.
Chris (05:53):
And I'm not.
What am I?
An hour?
Warren (05:54):
and a half away from Worcester, where our office is
totally different.
I never, when I came down hereand saw that the gutter monkeys
were running 60-secondcommercials, I hadn't done a
60-second commercial off Cape in15, 20 years because we had
gotten away with it.
And we were doing 30s, we weredoing 10s and 15s Wow, but no
(06:16):
60s.
And I said what's going on here?
I don't understand.
People were still advertisingin the newspaper at the time,
and so forth.
Because it's different and notto correct you, but there's
probably closer to 14 radiostations on the Cape In the
Worcester area.
There's five, wow, yeah, that'sincredible.
So it's got its own marketing.
(06:37):
You have to learn the ear.
You got to what do they say?
You got to read the room?
Well, this is the room.
The Cape Cod room is differentOne in.
Chris (06:44):
Rome One in Rome.
Yeah, we've talked about thatin past podcasts too.
The demographics on the CapeTrends, higher trends, a little
bit wealthier, and people arestill listening to AM FM radio.
Also, you go to the beach, takeyour radio.
There's other factors, so youmust have seen a lot of changes
then.
I mean 42 years of business.
Oh my gosh, it's got to beincredible the landscape has
(07:05):
changed so much over these years.
Warren (07:07):
You know you talk about we call a sheet cake innovation.
It's not.
It's really not.
It's just going back to.
What used to work is nowinnovative because you don't see
it anymore, but there's so manythings that we used to do.
What I try to tell people isour job hasn't changed.
We have to get the company thatwe deal with our clients' names
(07:31):
out there to people.
Chris (07:36):
The tools have changed.
Warren (07:37):
That's what's different.
There's still auditory, there'sstill visual and so forth.
The tools have changed.
It's not newspaper anymore,it's not even direct mail
anymore, it's not 60-second adsoff Cape anyways.
But it's different and you haveto keep up with those
(07:58):
quote-unquote innovations.
Just the tools have changed,but we still need the essence of
getting a message to a customer.
Chris (08:02):
Yeah, and some of your customers probably are coming
off of their old ways ofadvertising as well.
I mean, you were talking abouta story, I think it was about
Yellow Pages.
It was so fascinating.
Warren (08:11):
When I started, Yellow Pages was one of the biggest
line item expenses for acompany's marketing.
Chris (08:19):
It's unimaginable nowadays.
Warren (08:21):
It could have been, depending upon how many
locations you had, you couldeasily be spending $5,000 a
month back then.
Nowadays, it could have been,depending upon how many
locations you had, you couldeasily be spending 5 000 a month
back then, back then.
Yeah, well, uh on on the yellowpages.
The biggest uh thing that I Ihad to do over the first few
years in business was talkpeople out of it.
They didn't.
They were, they weren't buyingit because it worked so much as
(08:41):
if they were fearful.
The reps of the yellow pageswould make them fearful that
they were going to lose aposition.
If you don't buy that full pagead, your competitor is going to
get that full page ad and he'sgoing to be seen before you.
It's impossible.
It's impossible to open up thatold yellow page book or phone
book to an exact page where yourad is.
You still had to flip back andforth and I showed them this,
(09:04):
which they sit there with theirmouths open, and then they'd
sign the Yellow Pages contractagain finally.
But that money was better spentin those days in radio,
television and so forthbillboard.
We do a lot of outdoor as well.
So and then the signal that itwas over, that the days were
over, is when the is when thetelephone company would deliver
(09:28):
those books to an officebuilding and they'd be just
shrink-wrapped.
Chris (09:34):
A hundred.
Warren (09:35):
Maybe there's a hundred books.
Chris (09:36):
I remember that you see them in the stairwells.
Warren (09:38):
You see them in the stairwells and they never moved.
Nobody ever took them out.
They ended up going to berecycled eventually, and that's
what finally said to me.
That's enough.
And then we got all our clientsout of there eventually.
Dennis (09:52):
I had a former employee who became a client.
He started his own business.
This is back in 05, 06, 07.
And he was in the roofingbusiness.
He's a Vermonter and he wasgoing to open up a roofing
company, which he did.
And he told me he was going torely heavily on yellow pages.
(10:12):
And I said don't do that.
And I had a completelydifferent marketing program for
my roofing company in NewHampshire.
I still subcontracted a lot ofsmall jobs to him because he was
a small roofing company, wemuch bigger one and and we we
remained close, we remainedbuddies over the years.
And at one point he said ah,denny, he says you were wrong.
(10:33):
He said my phone is ringing offthe hook.
I said, yeah, that's theproblem.
And a couple months later hegoes damn, that phone won't stop
ringing and they're low ballers, no one's interested in paying,
yeah, in paying the going ratefor a roof.
These are bottom feeders, theseare tire kickers.
He said I got to get thatnumber out of it, but it's stuck
there.
He's stuck for another year andnot only didn't work for him,
(10:57):
it was almost a nuisance.
That's right.
Yeah, it's time.
Warren (11:03):
And I mentioned to the point I mentioned before, chris,
about our job, hasn't changed.
Well, there is a new YellowPages.
It didn't go away.
There's a new Yellow Pages,it's called your website.
Chris (11:13):
Yeah.
Warren (11:13):
How many people use your website?
Go to your website just to geta phone number?
Dennis (11:18):
Or a search engine.
Yeah, a search engine, or asearch engine.
The Yellow Pages was a searchengine before the internet.
Right, exactly, right, Exactly,made out of paper.
Warren (11:26):
Yeah, exactly, exactly so.
If you look at your websiteresults, if you go into the back
end and look at your GoogleAnalytics, you're going to see
that the majority of your hitsto your website are probably 30
seconds or less.
Yeah, and that's mainly becausepeople get the phone number and
they get it and they're out ofhere.
Chris (11:40):
That's what they want.
So you're finding you're havingthe same conversation with
people today you were havingwith the Yellow Pitch crowd, the
digital sort of I want to be onInstagram or Facebook instead
of doing a more traditional adparticularly with the radio.
Warren (11:55):
You're 100% right.
We have developed and changedover the last 15 years more than
I did in the first 30 years ofmy business the last 10 years
and so it changes, and itchanges every single day.
The algorithms change withGoogle and so forth.
It's hard to keep up with, butit is a digital world.
(12:17):
I understand that.
But, as I said to you,gentlemen, before, when we were
prepping, 92% of all Americansstill listen to terrestrial
radio.
Yeah, it's incredible.
Yeah, you can say whatever youwant.
You can say you know.
And the biggest, when we tellthem we're going to a new client
, the biggest problem we havewith a new client is telling
them don't buy media that youyourself digest or ingest and so
(12:43):
forth, because you like it, anddon't not buy something because
you don't like it.
I don't care what you like, youdon't like, I gotta know what
your customer identify yourtarget market.
The target market absolutely,you know if it's country radio
and you hate country radio andyou stay away from it.
But yet country radio is whatyour your.
Chris (13:00):
Your market is listen to you, buy country radio yeah,
it's very simple and since this,you know, this market down here
in the Cape is probably aging.
I think it's like 55 is prettymuch the age I think average age
or something like that.
It's almost.
There's one number here I waslooking at it's 85% of those
people in the age of 65 andolder listen to AM FM radio.
(13:20):
Yeah, so that's a huge number85%.
I wish this stunned me.
But again, that's why probablythe Bobby Downspout that whole
advertising campaign is sosuccessful down here on the Cape
.
Warren (13:32):
Oh, it's phenomenal, and it goes against my thinking of
60-second ads.
Bobby Downspout is 60 seconds.
Bobby Downspout could betwo-minute ads if we wanted to,
because they're enjoyable,they're fun to listen to and
memorable.
Dennis (13:46):
We wanted to tell a story.
Each time it's hard to.
We're not advertising our nameand our phone number.
We're trying to tell a storyand it takes 60 seconds to tell
the story, I believe.
Let me tell you that we talkedabout products radio, it's TV,
it's digital but service is huge.
The reason so, warren, I thinkyou and I met in about 2019.
(14:11):
It was pre-COVID.
I had a problem.
I was struggling with theiHeartRadio the four iHeart
stations down here and they usedto be locally owned.
It was Quantum Radio up untilabout 10 years ago and those
four stations were bought out byiheart media and my rep at the
time was johnny cool.
He's the voice, he's the onethat says no monkeys were harmed
(14:33):
in the making of thiscommercial.
Chris (14:34):
I was wondering how he came into the.
Dennis (14:35):
That's his voice, okay he used to work for quantum cool
, then johnny cool we call himthat because of the cool 102
radio station we were on.
And Johnny lost a little bit ofpower when iHeart bought the
company because it went frombeing locally owned to now owned
by a national chain of 958 orsome large number of radio
(14:58):
stations and I wasn't gettingthe slotting times.
I wasn't getting my morningdrive, my evening drive.
They were running my ads,sometimes at 8, 10 at night,
sometimes at 2 or 3 in themorning.
And at this point Lori andWarren said let me fix that for
you.
And so they didn't change theproduct.
(15:21):
The product is still radio.
What it was was service.
And Warren fixed it.
He not only fixed it with theiHeart stations.
At that point I said let mejust turn all of my radio
advertising over to you and yourteam.
I still make the ads, I stillgo to the radio stations, I
(15:42):
still talk to all the DJs andthe recording people, then the
studio managers.
I still know all those people.
What Warren does is a number ofthings.
Number one, first of all, hegives me some insight.
Oh, you're opening a new God ofMonkey franchise up on the
South Shore or up on Southeast,they'll recommend some radio
stations for me.
(16:02):
Now I still research it.
I want to make sure that it's atarget market.
But after that, what PallyAdvertising does for me is they
help with the placement, makesure I get my morning drive and
my evening drive and any otherslotting times.
They also help me get somebonus slots which I never knew
was available.
Yeah, that's key.
So I would say I mean I reviewprobably once a month my radio
(16:27):
ads at the end of the month, myradio ads at the end of the
month, and I think that umLaurie and Warren are probably
responsible for getting me about20% additional ads from what
I'm paying for.
And and we always sign one yearcontracts.
So in my company we want to letthe radio stations know that
(16:48):
we're on board for another yearwe're not coming in for a month
or two to see if it works knowthat we're on board for another
year, we're not coming in for amonth or two to see if it works.
And when I have that amount ofpower that we're bringing, and
then I have Pally Advertisingworking alongside of us.
It's just we get so much morebang for the buck.
Warren (17:03):
He gets to be the good cop, he gets to go to the
station, get the car.
Chris (17:08):
Be the Bobby Downspout Be .
Warren (17:09):
Bobby Downspout.
They love him, they hug him,and then we go beat up the
stations for rate.
We get a good rate and then weget the bonuses.
But on top of that too, as yousaid today is, it's not enough
to buy a commercial anymore.
You have to have added value,and that added value might be a
news sponsorship or a trafficsponsorship or a weather
(17:31):
sponsorship in this particularcase.
Uh, then you know the uh.
This weather is being broughtto you by the uh cape cod gutter
, monkeys, and we don't pay forthat but again, it's just
mentions and mentions, because Ithink the last study I saw said
that a potential new customerhas to be exposed, has to be hit
3.2 times either.
Chris (17:52):
I agree with that.
I've touched on those numbers acouple of times in the podcast.
Warren (17:54):
Yeah, you've either got to hear it, see it on digital,
see it, drive by it on abillboard.
See it on trucks.
Chris (18:00):
We talk about our panel trucks.
How many hits do you get?
Warren (18:02):
a day on a panel truck, thousands and thousands of hits.
Dennis (18:05):
Yeah, the other day we were making some radio
commercials up on the SouthShore.
So we were making some radiocommercials up on the South
Shore so I was visiting WATD inMarshfield and then we headed
down and we met up with thefolks at WPLM in Plymouth and
(18:27):
when I get back home it wasactually yesterday and earlier
today there's some backgroundmusic that they didn't have.
So I called up the folks overat Codcom down here in Hyannis
and they all communicate, theyknow each other, and so my
friends at Codcom sent thenecessary background music up to
WATD in Marshfield so that youknow that would be the type of
(18:48):
commercial that we wanted toreplicate.
And there's a lot ofcooperation within the industry.
And what Warren does and histeam is they make sure that
everybody knows what everybody's.
They keep everybody on the samepage, at least in my world, and
it's really a smooth transition.
And there's some truth to whatwhat he says is I go make the
(19:09):
ads and we have coffeeafterwards and we hang out and
we talk and it's very fun.
And he and his team I don'tknow what they do, but they get
me free ads, they get me freeplacement, they get me good
placements.
They really do take care of theend of business.
That to me would be verydifficult.
Chris (19:25):
Yeah, that's one of the questions I was going to have is
like if I was a small businessguy coming to you today, you
know, why would I spend?
I've got all these ways of.
I can hire a fiver or somethingof $10 an hour to write digital
ads for me and do all thisstuff.
Why would I come to atraditional company like you?
You guys have already answeredthat question here.
This is almost paying for yoursleep to the advertising company
(19:45):
.
Warren (19:45):
Well, Dennis is smart enough to know his time is worth
money and his time is not worthsitting negotiating rates and
checking invoices to see whattime.
Sure, yeah, it's better off toto to give it to somebody like
us who are going to.
We, we have a manager in thebusiness office who looks over
(20:07):
all the invoices and makes surethat what was ordered ran and it
ran at the right time, and ifit isn't, then there's going to
be either a credit or additionalspots coming the next month.
A new client that we talked to.
It's no different discussiontoday than it was 43 years ago
when we started.
Chris, that discussion is okay.
What are your needs?
What do you feel your needs are?
The biggest mistake that theseclients make is they spread
(20:31):
their budgets way too thin.
Chris (20:33):
Yeah, they go to that.
Warren (20:34):
X amount, whatever that budget is, whether it's $5,000 a
month or $50,000 a month, theywant everything.
They want digital, they wantbillboards, they want this.
And then what happens ifthey're not using us?
They do it on their own.
They do it for two or threemonths and all of a sudden it's
not getting the results and theyfreak and they cut.
Oh, radio doesn't work becauseI tried it for three months.
Dennis (20:56):
I've heard that so many times.
I tried that last month.
I tried that last month.
It didn't work.
Warren (21:01):
Then you find out they were on the wrong station.
Identify who your client, whoyour customer is.
You have to identify.
They think well, it's everybody.
No, it isn't.
Even Cape Cod gutter monkeys.
It's not.
Everybody is not your potentialcustomer.
No, absolutely not.
You've got to have a home,you've got to have gutters on
that home, yeah right.
So now you're getting narrowerand narrower and so forth and
(21:24):
we're able to go in and find outwho those people are and where
they live.
It's really not much different.
We deal with multi-generationalfamily companies.
That was our niche over theyears Worcester, now down to the
Cape, companies like EagleLeasing out of South Grove.
Chris (21:42):
I know those guys Drive by them all the time.
Warren (21:44):
Yeah, we're dealing with the second generation,
southwick Zoo.
We're dealing with the thirdgeneration, nesh.
Yeah, wow and so neshoba,neshoba valley ski area.
Chris (21:54):
Neshoba valley ski area.
Yeah, are you those commercials?
Those are good jingles too theystick in your brain.
Second, the second uh, secondgeneration we're dealing with
there um all the furniturecompanies in worcester like, uh,
rodman's, you mentionedrodman's, yeah yeah, we dealt.
Warren (22:09):
That was one of my first clients many, many years ago.
They had great commercials.
Chris (22:13):
They had classic commercials.
Warren (22:15):
They were not using radio when I joined WTAG Radio
at the time, coming out ofSyracuse, and I came up with a
concept at the time to put BarryRotman.
The concept was we will goanywhere to furnish or carpet
your home.
Yeah, so we hadry on the moon,we had barry at valley forge, we
(22:35):
had.
We had him in the desert, wehad him everywhere, we had him
on the titanic.
What a great concept, wow.
And you know, it's radio, it'stheater of the mind right, just
like you guys yeah, bobby,downspout, it's not.
It's no different than it was 43years that's so cool.
What a great idea and, and theyloved it.
They ate it up and they becameone of the largest radio users
(22:57):
at the time.
Chris (22:58):
This is probably pre-Jordan's Furniture too right
.
Warren (23:00):
Yes, it was.
Chris (23:01):
Yeah, so Jordan's Furniture kind of picked up on
this.
It seems like all the furniturecompanies had great commercials
.
They were all kind of competingeach other, but along the same
lines of that commercial.
Warren (23:09):
What we try to find, chris, is you have to identify.
We call it the USP, your uniqueselling proposition.
What is it that you offer,service-wise or product-wise,
that your competition doesn'thave, or they have it, but they
don't market it?
And the biggest example of thatthat I learned years ago was
(23:31):
Folgers Coffee, you remember?
Chris (23:33):
Mrs Olson Sure.
Warren (23:34):
You remember Mrs Olson, right, yeah?
And the neighbor would say MrsOlson, why is Folgers Coffee so
good?
And she would say because it'smountain grown.
Yeah, wow, what a concept.
All coffee is mountain grown.
Dennis (23:47):
Sure.
Warren (23:47):
But nobody else jumped on that.
Dennis (23:50):
Until Juan Valdez did Until Juan Valdez.
Warren (23:53):
And Folgers even had that little mountain logo.
Sure, yeah, sure, on the keyMountain grown.
Chris (23:58):
That was like the.
Was it Lucky Strikes, thecigarettes Roasted.
Toasted tobacco Toasted tobaccoToasted tobacco Wow, they got
toasted tobacco.
That must make it a reallygreat cigarette, yeah they're
all toasted great cigarettes.
They're all toasted.
They all had to go through theoven, that's exactly right, it's
(24:18):
crazy.
Warren (24:18):
So once you can get somebody to identify that,
that's step two.
After you've found out who yourcustomer is, and so forth, and
then being trusted trust peoplelike ourselves enough to say,
okay, you guys put somethingtogether.
Come back to me, and anytime wemake a presentation to a client
, we always had two ideasminimum.
And they say, well, why two?
If you're coming to me withyour best idea, why are there
(24:38):
two?
Well, because 99% of the timeyou're going to hear after you
make your first presentation iswhat else you got, and I go, oh,
okay, well, we happen to havethis one.
We have this presentation aswell, and so it's a lot of fun,
though that's the good thingabout this is, I've always,
always, enjoyed it.
Chris (24:57):
Yeah, you mentioned trust there just a minute ago.
I'm wondering if this BobbyDownspout, one of the reasons
why it's so popular in the Capeis because, again, with more of
an elderly crowd or more elderlyradio audience.
Maybe that's a big part of it,because Bobby Downspout reminds
me of a lot of those furniturecommercials and he is sort of
this trustful guy, the guy youcan believe in.
He's going to show up on timeand do your gutters.
(25:18):
He's like your next doorneighbor, kind of like the
quirky next door neighbor sortof guy.
So probably plays a lot intothat ad.
Warren (25:24):
If you hear enough of the Bobby Downspout ads, you
actually it's the informationthat he's giving you not just
you, but your guest on thecommercial, whoever that might
be.
That information makes youtrust what they're saying.
And so, but then it's comingfrom quote unquote, a reliable
source.
Nobody has any idea what BobbyDon Spout looks like.
(25:45):
He could be tall, he could beshort.
Nobody has.
They don't care, they trustwhat they're hearing.
Chris (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, they know him .
You know him because they'veheard him in the past.
They know him.
He's like your next-doorneighbor.
He's that guy in the radio adsyou used to hear way back when.
Warren (26:00):
It's consistency.
Chris (26:01):
That's the other thing that's really interesting.
Warren (26:04):
Staying with it.
As I said to you before, wehave a client that runs
something for a month or two andsays, oh, I ran that radio and
it didn't work.
You didn't stay with it.
You have to let it take holdthose seeds got to grow, and so
forth, and give it a chance.
You have to do it.
Chris (26:23):
Yeah, that's interesting.
You said that because if you gothrough all the Bobby Don's
about once, which I actuallyhave been going through quite a
bit of them yeah, they're prettyconsistent from today and the
original ones.
They haven't really changedthat much.
Warren (26:34):
They're informational One of my rules.
Dennis (26:38):
So I always introduce myself as Bobby Downspout here
with the South Shore GutterMonkeys, and then we go forward
and I'll usually I try tomention in this case South Shore
Gutter Monkeys five times andthe phone number once or twice.
It's easy to do, it doesn'tsound repetitive if you
(26:58):
carefully script your ad.
Chris (27:01):
That's crazy.
I've never noticed that before.
Dennis (27:03):
Five and two I have to go back and look at that,
because here's what happens.
You'll often hear BobbyDownspout say so.
Call the South Shore GutterMonkeys at 508-477-9100 or visit
us atSouthShoreGutterMonkeyscom.
That's two mentions, rightthere.
Right, exactly, and all youhave to do is you hit it at the
beginning, you hit it twice atthe end and once or twice in the
(27:25):
middle, and we do itconsistently, and you're
delivering your main message.
We are all things gutters,gutter cleaning, gutter installs
, repairs and maintenances andyou're also directing them.
You're branding the name.
It takes a long time, though,and we're still growing year
(27:49):
after year.
Our gross sales is growing allthe time, and we're still
growing year after year.
Our gross sales is growing allthe time, which indicates that
there's always new people whoare looking for our services,
and we spend the same dollaramount every month.
I don't increase it in thewinter.
I don't increase it or decreaseit in the summer or the fall.
I never play games with that.
(28:09):
It's the same.
It's called branding.
We're not advertising.
We're not advertising, we'renot marketing.
We're branding so that we'reliving in your brain rent-free
all the time is the goal when wego through good economic times,
advertising is looked at by ourclients as an investment.
Warren (28:27):
When we hit rough times and, believe me, you're not sure
, as we're sitting here, I thinkin the 43 years I've been
through three or four reallygood recessions it's the first
thing to get cut is advertisingwhy?
Well, it's a line item, it's anexpense.
It's no longer an investment.
It's become an expense that wecan do without and we can cut it
(28:48):
because I said well, are youstill in business?
Are you still selling X, y, z?
Well, yeah, we're just notselling as much.
So why would you cut it out?
Why would you?
Dennis (28:59):
There's still people out there.
Warren (29:00):
The world didn't come to a stop.
You have to keep the wheelschurning on the train.
Maybe the train's going alittle bit slower and maybe it
doesn't go as far as it used to,but you don't take the train
off the track.
You just don't do that, andthat's one of the biggest.
So every eight to 10 years Ihave to go through this with
clients.
Chris (29:21):
COVID was a big one.
Dennis, you've got aninteresting story about COVID,
how you just came across theradio ads that were so much
cheaper during COVID and youjust took advantage of that.
Dennis (29:26):
Well, what happened was.
It was somewhere around March15th or March 23rd of 20.
I was over at CODCOM.
I was meeting with Lori Lori,she's one of my favorite radio
people and we had just cut a fewcommercials.
And Trevor, one of my coworkers, t-bone we call him T-Bone and
(29:47):
I were coming downstairs becausehe's one of the straight guys
that I have in the commercials.
And we're coming downstairs andTim, who is the general manager
of CODCOM, which is four radiostations.
It has since been purchased.
It's still called CODCOM, butthe LLC, I think, is Coxwain
Media.
(30:08):
So we were coming downstairs,the governor had just issued a
shutdown of the state and Tim,the general manager, said hey,
dan, you want to sit in on ameeting we're having?
And I said sure.
And it was all the importantpeople within that organization
and they were talking about whatjust happened and they lost all
(30:29):
of their auto dealerships andall of the restaurants, because
April is when the restaurants onCape Cod really kick it into
gear.
And I think Tim said he hadjust lost 72% of his potential
advertising.
And I remember I said somethingreally stupid at that meeting.
I said no, no, no, no, no.
(30:49):
These are going to be some hardtimes we've got coming up.
This is when you double down onyour advertising.
And then Tim said somethinglike yeah, I think everybody
should know that.
So I was back here in the officewe weren't in this building yet
, we were still in the oldbuilding and my accountant, my
banker, a lot of people weresaying there's some PPP loans
(31:11):
out there, all kinds of COVIDmoney being given out, and I
don't like to take a governmentmoney.
That because I know there's astring attached to it on the
other end and maybe two, threeyears from now there's going to
be recall.
So I said to my wife Babs Isaid you give it 30 minutes.
If it takes more than 30minutes to figure out all the
(31:32):
compliance and fill out the form, we're not doing it.
Meanwhile, I think we were onabout 10 radio stations at the
time and I called each of thestation managers and I said
something like I want to pick upa bunch of your vacant spots.
You need some revenue.
I could probably use some moreadvertising.
So they cut me some really gooddeals on and Warren and I were
(31:57):
doing business at the time.
They threw me a lot ofadvertising slots at a fraction
of the price because they neededto fill that void.
So we signed a one-year contract, I think, with an extension.
So I basically got a muchlarger footprint for two years
(32:19):
at a time when we didn't knowwhat was coming.
But it was easy to fit it inthe budget.
We got it and, honestly, weboomed during COVID and the next
year were huge years for us.
We did not have a down yearduring COVID and that, to me,
just was, I think, a gooddecision.
And we never did take the PPmoney, the PPP money and I
(32:41):
remember talking to so many ofmy associates and friends in the
business world post-covid wherethey're trying to wrap that
whole thing up and and do theyhave to repay it?
Warren (32:50):
and if they do, you know and they were going through
that and we didn't have to spendtime or effort on that I don't
think people realize that theautomotive you talked about, the
automotive marketing that gotcut, yeah still hasn't rebounded
totally yet and I don't know ifit ever will with the
automotive.
But people don't realize withradio and TV companies that
automotive is anywhere from 25%to 30% of their revenue.
Dennis (33:13):
Wow.
Warren (33:13):
Yeah, wow, and it's year-round.
It's year-round and a lot of ithasn't come back.
I think maybe 10% has come back.
Dennis (33:21):
I know the folks over at Marty's Trucks up in Kingston,
plymouth, kingston I think, exit9 up there and then we also buy
all of our service trucks overat Falmouth Toyota.
It's actually in Bourne now,but I know those guys real well.
And, yeah, the auto industry,especially the trucks industry,
(33:43):
it's not the same anymore.
It takes longer to get them andI talked to these folks and I
see what they're going through.
Covid really changed theirindustry.
It didn't change mine.
We're in the home serviceindustry.
It was a little bump in the road, a hurdle and a wrench, and we
got through it and everythingseems to be back.
You know, on a normal level,except aluminum.
(34:05):
Pre-covid was always 88 to 92cents a pound.
Now I'm I'm paying 380 a pound,think about 90 cents.
And it was level at 90 centsfor a long time, yeah, like four
or five, six years in a row,and now it's at 380, 3, 375, 380
a pound.
So when there's talk abouttariffs and possible increase in
(34:27):
aluminum, it could happen.
But we had to go up a littlebit in our prices, not a lot,
but we did and we moved forward.
Chris (34:34):
So it seems like a good idea to have someone like an
advertising group, like you, inyour back pocket.
In times like that.
It's almost like having a CFP.
We were talking about CFPs lastweek.
Right, when the market takes acrash, you need someone like a
CFP your financial advisor youcan go to and he'll say we've
been through this before, don'tworry about it, this is how we
handle it.
There's a lot of opportunityhere, sort of the same thing
with advertising companies.
(34:55):
If I got you, I can business 42years to say, hey, wait a
minute, I've seen this before,here's your opportunities you
can take advantage of thoseAbsolutely, because, look,
there's less clutter, if youthink about it A radio station,
digital billboards, tv.
Warren (35:15):
There's less of your gutter cleaning companies
advertising.
There's less car dealersadvertising.
The ones that do advertisestick out.
Yeah sure you're not competingagainst.
You know, five minutes lateranother commercial from another
uh competitor or or so forth.
So you really do stick outduring that time period and it's
again.
It takes, it's a podcast.
(35:37):
I can say it takes balls to beable to stick with it and spend
that and sign that check everymonth for the advertising.
During tough times it reallydoes.
But Dennis stuck by it andstayed with it and it paid
dividends.
Chris (35:49):
It's the same thing sticking in the market, not
ripping all your money out ofthe market when the market
crashes.
Right, exactly Because you'rewith someone that knows seen it
before they've been through it,they can tell you all the war
stories and kind of get throughit.
Dennis (36:00):
Yeah, you'll often hear me talk about your inner circle.
You know, and everybody who'sin business, for example, needs
an accountant.
You need a banker, you know youneed a financial planner.
You need an attorney, you needa marketing consultant.
These are people that should bein your loop before you need
them, right Right, so that whenyou need them, they know your
(36:25):
platform, they have your history.
And remember too, chris Warren,any one of us you are the
average of the five people thatyou are closest to in any world,
in your business world or inyour personal world.
I try to surround myself withpeople that are smarter than me
(36:47):
and people that have skill setsthat I don't have, and when you
do that, it makes me we all riseto tide together.
That's why you want to havepeople like Warren and his whole
team, and we're going throughsome interesting stuff right now
.
It's so great to have thesepeople here because they know my
history.
Yeah, sure you know.
(37:08):
We don't have to explain thebackstory.
It's just a quick phone calland boom, we're moving forward.
Chris (37:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
How do you guys see sort ofyour relationship going forward?
I know things are changingstill.
I mean, the baby boomers areaging out and things like that.
Do you see, this is going to besort of probably a gradual
change, but do you anticipateany sort of changes coming up
near term?
Warren (37:29):
Well, we've been working on.
You know this as well.
We've got to get BobbyDownspout further out there and
in a different area.
You can't buy any more radiothan you're buying on Cape Cod.
For the franchisees it'sanother story.
But I know we've been workingon some animation and so forth
(37:53):
to get Bobby Downspout out therein front of people, whether
it's through cable buying RedSox, bruins, celtics games on
Nessun and that type of thing,or digitally sending out, even
on the website, having BobbyDownspout come out and say hello
to you once you click into thewebsite on the homepage so
giving a quick 15-second.
Hi, I'm Bobby Downspout.
You've heard of me.
Now you get to.
You know, aren't I agood-looking guy, that type of
(38:17):
thing.
So I see there's more therethat we've got planned and so
forth.
As far as the tools you that'sobviously digital is is, uh,
invaluable.
We, we've got to be there.
There's going to be youngerhomeowners starting to use your
services and they're going to bethe as they get older and buy,
buy homes and so forth.
They've already been throughthe digital training.
(38:39):
They understand it more thanthe 60 yearyear-old of five
years ago versus the 60-year-oldfive years from now are going
to be two different people.
Chris (38:47):
Sure yeah a little bit different.
That's going to be tricky too,because I know in the digital
market just since I've beenworking on it and that's not my
background.
I came from a high-techbackground.
This is kind of my secondcareer or third.
It's probably my fifth digitalmarketing ever evolving digital
marketing, podcasting and stuff.
But yeah, even inside that mark,just in the time I've been
doing, it's changed so much.
How much more it's gone.
(39:07):
It's gone from Facebook toInstagram.
You know we're into Tik TOK nowand YouTube's taking off.
Now YouTube is becoming thedominant marketing platform,
right?
Uh, podcasts, uh, videos,everything it's become YouTube.
So it's going to be changingquite a bit.
It's going to be tricky, it'snot going to be as
(39:27):
straightforward, I think, as TVversus radio or something like
that.
Inside digital marketingthere's going to be who knows
what it will be.
Warren (39:31):
And it's not the answer for everybody.
It's not the silver bullet thateverybody thinks it is, because
one of the biggest problems wehave is trying to back people
off when they call and go.
I got to get into digital, Igot to be on YouTube, I got to
be on timeout.
Now, all right, you have a onelocation company your customers
come from, maybe 20 miles around.
(39:51):
Let's not get crazy here.
Dennis (39:53):
That's so true.
Warren (39:54):
Home Depot, they got to be, they got to be on YouTube,
because everybody's there, theircustomer, and so forth.
But if you're a small clothingstore, for example, or whatever,
a fine men's clothing store,and you want to, I get.
Oh, I've got to be on socialmedia, I have to be on Instagram
.
No, you don't.
Chris (40:13):
You don't have to Such a distraction too.
It's a lot of work, trust me,it's just a lot of work.
Warren (40:18):
Exactly, but it's a herd mentality.
Everybody's following the sheepand so forth, everybody's there
.
And you know what we always sayto our clients that digital
hole is a black hole.
Oh, I know.
You can just keep tossing moneyinto that and somebody will
come back and say to you well,look at all the hits you hit.
You had this many hits, yeah,but my business didn't increase.
Dennis (40:41):
Yeah, it didn't make the phone ring.
Chris (40:42):
It didn't make the phone ring it didn't make the phone
ring it didn't make the metermove.
Yeah, it's a hard market tofigure out whether you're
actually hitting your targetmarkets there.
And it's getting even hardernow with cookies and everything
going away.
Warren (40:52):
I mean that's a whole other story, but yeah, it's even
getting more difficult andGoogle just loves to get on the
phone and call people and try tosell them into all types of
things Brutal.
Chris (41:01):
Yeah, Now they've got bots that'll answer your ads
just to make you feel good.
It's just insane.
Warren (41:07):
Exactly.
Chris (41:08):
So we did touch on it a little bit.
Cape Cod Gutter Monkeys is afranchise of AGM.
Bobby Downspout has beenrepresenting Cape Cod Gutter
Monkeys for many years.
But we kind of want to getBobby Downspout out into our
franchises and things like that.
So that's kind of a transitionwe're going to have to sort of
work with you on, I guess, to beable to figure out.
Warren (41:29):
I see Bobby Downspout is the next Bob from.
Dennis (41:30):
Bob's Furniture.
These guys Warren's team washere probably three weeks ago.
We had a meeting and we'vebegun acting on that meeting.
We've taken two of our currentradio stations that were on cat
country and uh wplm each.
They're the two largest uhgeographically.
(41:51):
Also the towers and the powerthat they put out 50 000 watts
per and um.
So we just started building ournew platform.
The other day, monday, I was upthere to those stations making
some new radio ads that areregional ads, okay, and so this
(42:11):
is one of the new strategies andthis was from a meeting that.
Were you at that meeting, chris?
A month or so, three, fourweeks ago.
Chris (42:19):
No, no, I think I missed that one.
Dennis (42:21):
Warren was here, laurie was here, andy, bruce, myself, a
couple of us were here and,yeah, we were bouncing things
around, and so we've startedmoving in that direction this
week, because next week is March3rd.
This is when we launch our newstrategy for the year, and you
always have to be thinking thatway if you're a growing company,
(42:45):
right, and that's why it's goodto have opinions from people
who I don't work with every day.
Warren (42:51):
Yeah, it's important that we find a way to keep Bobby
Downspout and the Gutter Monkeyfamily likable, and local
People like to do business withlocal companies.
So as we branch out off Cape tothe other franchisees
geographically I mean we'regoing up looking to the north,
(43:11):
up to New Hampshire, maine,we're looking south at different
coastal regions and so forththat has to translate.
Bobby Downspout's commercialand message has to translate
into we're a local company, callus, we'll be there.
You're going to talk to a humanbeing when you call and we're
going to book, we'll sendsomebody out and give you a free
(43:35):
estimate.
So the marketing has to.
We have to be able to take itfrom the Cape where it grew and
transfer it to these otherregions.
And we have to make sure thatwe're buying the right radio
stations.
The right radio station in NewHampshire might be different
than the right radio station onCape Cod, and so we have to do a
lot of research and talk to thestations.
Chris (43:52):
It's very important.
I always find it interesting.
You guys are always talkingabout radio strength and
demographics and things likethat, and where's the radio
tower located, and things likethat.
Warren (44:01):
Well, that's interesting , it's important, All of that's
interesting.
It's important, all of that isimportant and Dennis has spent a
lot of time looking at that aswell.
We look at formats.
Today, as I said to you, 92% ofAmericans are listening to
terrestrial radio.
Everybody says, well, satelliteradio, satellite radio, it's
wonderful, 500 stations,whatever.
(44:21):
But what happens is you getsatellite radio free for the
first year.
When you buy a new car themajority of the people do not
renew.
Chris (44:28):
I'm going through that right now.
Yeah, I'm going through thatright now.
Warren (44:30):
The majority of the people do not renew their
subscription to satellite radiothe second year.
So it's a wonderful thing.
But if you go into the car,most people most people again
will have minimum somewherearound three to four stations,
as opposed to years ago when weused to have all these presets
and we'd have a dozen or sostations.
Today they everybody has a, aone music station, they've got a
(44:52):
sports talk station, yeah, andso forth, if they might mean you
know males and so, and theymight have a news talk, but
that's pretty much.
That's it, because people stillwant local information.
They want to hear somebodytalking about the local
restaurant, they want to hear,uh, local weather, traffic and
so forth.
They're just not listening toas many stations.
So our job becomes a littlemore difficult.
Chris (45:13):
We have to narrow that down and find those stations and
those markets that are going toserve yeah, we've been talking
recently with you aboutfranchise down south and uh, so
their radio footprint isn'tquite the same as Cape.
Maybe things aren't working outas well for them.
So you're down there kind oftinkering and figuring out how
this particular franchise isgoing to take advantage of Bobby
Downspout Radio.
Warren (45:44):
put a franchise in a triangle of three different
corners, of three states andthat you can't afford.
Can't afford to buy all threestates.
It's not easy, so we have toreally count on information and
feedback from the franchisee.
As to you got to tell me youknow what, five, ten miles, I
can't go 20, 30 miles out.
Yeah, can't afford to do thatand you gotta to buy.
You got to buy the rightstations.
Dennis (46:01):
It's very important creating the culture to create a
brand.
It's a culture.
You know burger king is outmarketing on tv anyway
mcdonald's.
I don't think mcdonald's needsto brand in that way as heavily
as burger king because last timeI checked mcdonald's still was
number one in the fast foodindustry as far as annual sales.
(46:26):
But you see Burger King tryingto create this new culture now
with their radio and their TVadvertising.
They're singing these funkytunes that don't sound that
attractive but it sticks in yourbrain.
Tuned that don't sound thatattractive but it sticks in your
(46:46):
brain.
One of my lifelong philosophieson advertising, and especially
for the upstart business, forthe rookie, is advertising is
expensive only if it doesn'tmake the phone ring.
I don't care anymore how muchwe spend.
I know I'm not going tooverspend.
But if there's a new radiostation as we move and expand
(47:08):
our region, if there's a radiostation that hits my demographic
and Warren says we need to put$2,800 a month, we're doing it
Because I know it's going tooutproduce, not advertising.
$2,801 of business means I'm onthe positive side.
So once we figure out whatworks and we've replicated it
(47:33):
two, three, four, five times, wecan go to a new location and
say, okay, we know what ourtarget demographic is Age.
We know what our targetdemographic is Age, region,
location, income level, so onand so forth.
All right, and this is whatthey listen to, and boom, that's
where we go.
Advertising is expensive onlyif it doesn't make the phone
(47:57):
ring.
If that's something that I canhave the upstart business owner
just wrap his mind around, that,it's huge.
It's huge.
Warren (48:06):
I remember many years ago, before Neshoba Valley Ski
Area, we handled WachusettMountain and the Crowley family.
And I remember David CrowleyGod bless his soul just passed
away this past year.
And I remember David saying andthey were spending God that
time they had to be spending400,000 a year between TV and oh
(48:28):
, easy, easy, yeah.
So.
But remember they were gettinga lot of bonus on top of that.
Sure, oh yeah, yeah, they're sowell-branded, so well-branded.
But anyways, I remember himsitting in the meeting and
saying to us I really couldtheoretically stop my
advertising.
We're so well-known, I couldstop for a whole ski season, try
to save a few bucks and savesome money, and so forth and so
forth.
He says, but I'm afraid, I'mafraid to do it, I'm afraid what
(48:51):
the alternative could be, andthat's why I don't do it.
Dennis (48:57):
You work it into your platform.
Yeah, my monthly marketingbudget.
Once we set it, it's aone-year-long agreement and then
we reestablish it a year later,maybe add some slotting time.
But it's part of the budgetevery month, just like payroll
or replenishing my stock.
(49:20):
So I don't not order productfrom my warehouse because we
have plenty of it.
Let's not order it this month.
It's part of the budget.
You keep your inventory updated.
You keep your payroll up todate and you keep your marketing
budget on budget.
(49:40):
Those are normal monthlyexpenses.
In the end, we know what toexpect.
Your payroll up to date and youkeep your marketing budget on
budget Correct.
Those are normal monthlyexpenses and in the end, we know
what to expect.
I agree, warren, I could cancelall my radio advertising and
we'd still probably have areally great year this year, but
then I got that recovery.
You don't want to do that.
Chris (49:59):
Oh, you'd have my mom saying I haven't heard the
gutter monkeys ad.
Dennis (50:03):
Oh no, no you can't do that, it's the big one,
elizabeth, I'm coming.
It's the big one.
No, I think your friends fromWachusett are right.
Yeah, if you're branding, ifyou're digital marketing and
there's other things I meandigital pop-up ads they're not
sort of the branding type ofthing that I use radio for you
(50:23):
know, direct marketing or directmail.
Direct mail you send it out,you get a response, and there's
not a whole lot of brandawareness being built there.
Right, it's, it's it's directresponse.
I'm sending you this and it'sthis is for, you know, labor Day
weekend, and it's it's nevergoing to happen again.
So come down and buy your carthis week.
(50:45):
Proper branding, yeah, it couldallow you to stop advertising
and at the pace you're going,you might run for another year
or two, but you don't want to dothat.
Chris (50:55):
You also talk about how it kind of keeps the foot on the
neck of your competitors aswell right.
Absolutely so.
Every time they continuallyhear your radio ads over and
over and over again, it just youknow it is kind of you got your
foot on their neck while I takeit off.
Warren (51:09):
Exactly.
I think one of the greatestexamples of consistency of
branding was even in the carbusiness was Herb Chambers.
Dennis (51:18):
Yeah, he just sold for $1.2 billion.
Warren (51:19):
He just sold his 40 dealerships last week for $1.2
billion.
He just sold his 40 dealershipslast week for $1.2 billion.
But they don't advertise.
Over the years, if you look athis billboards, they never
advertised price on item.
It was always some message andso forth we don't sell cars, we
help people buy them.
Those kind of messages and soforth.
Chris (51:40):
Ernie Bach was great at this too as well.
Even his son was really good.
His son is very innovative aswell.
In fact, he has his own sort ofBobby Downspout.
I don't know if you've everseen the animated Ernie Bach Jr.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and he's amusician, he's a cultural type
of icon?
Dennis (51:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
And now his kids and, I believe, his grandkids.
But his kids are you know.
They're working them into thestorylines.
Yeah, I saw one very recently.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris (52:06):
Okay, well, we're kind of wrapping it up here.
Dennis (52:07):
Yeah, it's been a long hour.
It's a good way to go.
Chris (52:09):
It's very interesting We've gone for quite a while.
Warren (52:11):
Yeah, absolutely, we'll have you back again.
Oh, I would love to BobbyDownspout journey.
So we'll keep you informedabout that and try to stay up on
the next chapter.
The next chapter.
Chris (52:25):
Warren thanks for joining us, my pleasure.
Thanks for being with us todayon Monkey Business Radio.
Dennis (52:30):
As always, we'll go out with no monkeys were harmed in
the making of this podcast.
There you go.
Chris (52:36):
All right, thank you very much.
See you next time.
Thank you for tuning in toMonkey Business Radio.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please make sure to subscribe,
like and follow us wherever youget your podcasts.
It really helps us reach moreaspiring entrepreneurs like you.
If you got a question or topicyou'd like us to cover, leave a
(52:57):
comment or reach out to us onsocial media.
We'd love to hear your thoughtsand keep the conversation going
.
Don't forget to leave us afive-star review if you found
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We'll see you next time.
This podcast is produced byAmerican Gutter Monkeys LLC.
Build real wealth throughbusiness ownership.
(53:19):
For details, visit us atAmericanGutterMonkeyscom.
For small business owners , advertising can feel like a
gamble, an expense that may ormay not pay off, but listen to
how Dennis Siggins of the CapeCod Gutter Monkeys thinks of it.
Dennis (00:11):
One of my lifelong philosophies on advertising, and
especially for the upstartbusiness, for the rookie, is
advertising is expensive only ifit doesn't make the phone ring.
Chris (00:23):
Hello and welcome to Monkey Business Radio, episode
10, advertising your SmallBusiness.
Today we're diving into theworld of traditional advertising
with a true expert who has beeninstrumental in building the
Cape Cod gutter monkey brand.
He's now helping Americangutter monkey franchises do the
same.
Warren Pally, founder of PallyAdvertising, has decades of
experience in traditional media,specializing in radio, tv and
(00:45):
print advertising, crafting theradio campaigns that have made
Bobby Downspout a household nameon Cape Cod.
His expertise in radioadvertising has helped American
Gutter Monkey franchises connectwith their communities, drive
business and grow their brands.
From securing the best adplacements to making the most of
value-added opportunities,warren shares how businesses can
maximize every dollar and standout in a crowded market.
(01:07):
We have a great show, so grab acup of coffee, sit back, relax
and welcome to Monkey BusinessRadio.
Hello Warren, welcome to theshow.
Warren (01:20):
Good afternoon everybody .
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Chris (01:23):
Yeah, we're really excited to have you here.
I always ask this question toget started.
How did you get mixed up withthe gutter monkeys?
Warren (01:30):
Well, we were all in jail.
No, that's a different storyfor a different day.
Well, I've had an advertisingagency since 1982.
I started in Worcester.
I've had an advertising agencysince 1982.
I started in Worcester.
I grew the company over theyears.
At one point we had about 18people working with us all over
(01:52):
New England.
We handled advertising all overNew England.
And then, about 2008, we boughta house on the Cape and decided
to start finding some businessdown here and I was lucky enough
to meet our senior accountexecutive, laurie Oteri.
I was working for Cape CodBroadcasting down here and she
(02:13):
was calling on us and I used tosay to her I always thought she
was good from the moment we metand I said if you ever want to
take a trip over to the darkside and you want to come to
work for us, let me know.
And about a year and a half,two years later she finally said
to me do you still want me?
And I said yeah, absolutely.
And Laurie's been one of thebest additions we've had at
(02:35):
Pally Advertising in many yearsand she's really grown the cake
business and she went over andbrought a sheet cake on the
first anniversary of the GutterMonkeys to.
Dennis (02:47):
Dennis' house.
She actually gave me a house atthe time.
Warren (02:49):
The office was still at home, yeah, I mean, it's the
personal touch that still worksand a lot of people don't do it
anymore, but it still does workand it got Dennis' attention.
Dennis (03:00):
It sure did yeah.
Warren (03:01):
And next, thing, I know we are working with the Gutter
Monkeys and their franchisees onall their radio.
Yeah, wow.
Chris (03:07):
Yeah, so it started with a sheet cake.
Pretty impressive, it startedwith a sheet cake exactly.
It's been 10 years now, 10years of advertising 11.
Dennis (03:15):
Actually, we're halfway through our 11th year, wow.
But the truth of the matter is,at the time I think we were on
we, the Cape Cod Gutter Monkeyswe're one location.
At the time we were on fourradio stations, all the four
iHearts, and when that is thecase there's a half a dozen
(03:36):
other radio stations on the Cape, they start calling you up
because they want to get you toadvertise on their radio station
and I was hearing from this oneand that one and we really were
happy with what we had.
If Lori, who was working for CCBMedia at the time and they own
and operate four stations if shehad sent me an email, picked up
(03:58):
the phone and called, Iprobably would have clicked
through or delete, delete,delete, you know.
But we came back to the shopwhich at the time was the garage
next to my house and my wifewas the office manager at the
time which we were running outof one of the extra bedrooms in
the house, and she said a prettyyoung girl came by and dropped
(04:20):
off a big sheet cake for us andI think we probably had five of
us Andy, me and three people inthe field and Barbara in the
office and it was acongratulations or one-year
anniversary cake and that got myattention and I called her back
.
Chris (04:37):
What a great old-school move, yeah, and a day of age of
cell phones and emails andtexting people back and forth.
It's that little personal touch, that kind of turned the tide,
even something as simple as ahandwritten note.
Warren (04:50):
Thank you for your time.
It was great to meet you.
When was the last time youreceived a handwritten note?
Thank you.
Note in the mail.
Yeah, it's going to get yourattention because you just don't
see them anymore.
Dennis (05:01):
Yeah, and, by the way, as we move forward with this
podcast today, remember that asheet cake which has been around
since, you know, for hundredsof years.
That was the contact the sheetcake, and we're kind of going to
bounce around and talk aboutsome marketing strategies, I
think, today.
I don't know, chris, but wedon't really script it too much
here.
But, yeah, just just keep thatin mind, just the oldest fashion
(05:25):
type of a thing.
Chris (05:26):
Yeah, we keep seeing this over and over again.
We keep talking aboutinnovation, how innovative this
company is and how innovativethe people we work with are, but
a lot of times it's these oldschool things that are now where
the real innovation is.
The actual riding a car andsaying thank you can blame you.
A lot of business that'sinnovative.
Warren (05:46):
Well, what I learned too .
You know what I learned, chris,from Laurie.
And coming down to the Cape ingeneral, the Cape is a different
world unto itself when it comesto marketing down here than it
does.
Chris (05:53):
And I'm not.
What am I?
An hour?
Warren (05:54):
and a half away from Worcester, where our office is
totally different.
I never, when I came down hereand saw that the gutter monkeys
were running 60-secondcommercials, I hadn't done a
60-second commercial off Cape in15, 20 years because we had
gotten away with it.
And we were doing 30s, we weredoing 10s and 15s Wow, but no
(06:16):
60s.
And I said what's going on here?
I don't understand.
People were still advertisingin the newspaper at the time,
and so forth.
Because it's different and notto correct you, but there's
probably closer to 14 radiostations on the Cape In the
Worcester area.
There's five, wow, yeah, that'sincredible.
So it's got its own marketing.
(06:37):
You have to learn the ear.
You got to what do they say?
You got to read the room?
Well, this is the room.
The Cape Cod room is differentOne in.
Chris (06:44):
Rome One in Rome.
Yeah, we've talked about thatin past podcasts too.
The demographics on the CapeTrends, higher trends, a little
bit wealthier, and people arestill listening to AM FM radio.
Also, you go to the beach, takeyour radio.
There's other factors, so youmust have seen a lot of changes
then.
I mean 42 years of business.
Oh my gosh, it's got to beincredible the landscape has
(07:05):
changed so much over these years.
Warren (07:07):
You know you talk about we call a sheet cake innovation.
It's not.
It's really not.
It's just going back to.
What used to work is nowinnovative because you don't see
it anymore, but there's so manythings that we used to do.
What I try to tell people isour job hasn't changed.
We have to get the company thatwe deal with our clients' names
(07:31):
out there to people.
Chris (07:36):
The tools have changed.
Warren (07:37):
That's what's different.
There's still auditory, there'sstill visual and so forth.
The tools have changed.
It's not newspaper anymore,it's not even direct mail
anymore, it's not 60-second adsoff Cape anyways.
But it's different and you haveto keep up with those
(07:58):
quote-unquote innovations.
Just the tools have changed,but we still need the essence of
getting a message to a customer.
Chris (08:02):
Yeah, and some of your customers probably are coming
off of their old ways ofadvertising as well.
I mean, you were talking abouta story, I think it was about
Yellow Pages.
It was so fascinating.
Warren (08:11):
When I started, Yellow Pages was one of the biggest
line item expenses for acompany's marketing.
Chris (08:19):
It's unimaginable nowadays.
Warren (08:21):
It could have been, depending upon how many
locations you had, you couldeasily be spending $5,000 a
month back then.
Nowadays, it could have been,depending upon how many
locations you had, you couldeasily be spending 5 000 a month
back then, back then.
Yeah, well, uh on on the yellowpages.
The biggest uh thing that I Ihad to do over the first few
years in business was talkpeople out of it.
They didn't.
They were, they weren't buyingit because it worked so much as
(08:41):
if they were fearful.
The reps of the yellow pageswould make them fearful that
they were going to lose aposition.
If you don't buy that full pagead, your competitor is going to
get that full page ad and he'sgoing to be seen before you.
It's impossible.
It's impossible to open up thatold yellow page book or phone
book to an exact page where yourad is.
You still had to flip back andforth and I showed them this,
(09:04):
which they sit there with theirmouths open, and then they'd
sign the Yellow Pages contractagain finally.
But that money was better spentin those days in radio,
television and so forthbillboard.
We do a lot of outdoor as well.
So and then the signal that itwas over, that the days were
over, is when the is when thetelephone company would deliver
(09:28):
those books to an officebuilding and they'd be just
shrink-wrapped.
Chris (09:34):
A hundred.
Warren (09:35):
Maybe there's a hundred books.
Chris (09:36):
I remember that you see them in the stairwells.
Warren (09:38):
You see them in the stairwells and they never moved.
Nobody ever took them out.
They ended up going to berecycled eventually, and that's
what finally said to me.
That's enough.
And then we got all our clientsout of there eventually.
Dennis (09:52):
I had a former employee who became a client.
He started his own business.
This is back in 05, 06, 07.
And he was in the roofingbusiness.
He's a Vermonter and he wasgoing to open up a roofing
company, which he did.
And he told me he was going torely heavily on yellow pages.
(10:12):
And I said don't do that.
And I had a completelydifferent marketing program for
my roofing company in NewHampshire.
I still subcontracted a lot ofsmall jobs to him because he was
a small roofing company, wemuch bigger one and and we we
remained close, we remainedbuddies over the years.
And at one point he said ah,denny, he says you were wrong.
(10:33):
He said my phone is ringing offthe hook.
I said, yeah, that's theproblem.
And a couple months later hegoes damn, that phone won't stop
ringing and they're low ballers, no one's interested in paying,
yeah, in paying the going ratefor a roof.
These are bottom feeders, theseare tire kickers.
He said I got to get thatnumber out of it, but it's stuck
there.
He's stuck for another year andnot only didn't work for him,
(10:57):
it was almost a nuisance.
That's right.
Yeah, it's time.
Warren (11:03):
And I mentioned to the point I mentioned before, chris,
about our job, hasn't changed.
Well, there is a new YellowPages.
It didn't go away.
There's a new Yellow Pages,it's called your website.
Chris (11:13):
Yeah.
Warren (11:13):
How many people use your website?
Go to your website just to geta phone number?
Dennis (11:18):
Or a search engine.
Yeah, a search engine, or asearch engine.
The Yellow Pages was a searchengine before the internet.
Right, exactly, right, Exactly,made out of paper.
Warren (11:26):
Yeah, exactly, exactly so.
If you look at your websiteresults, if you go into the back
end and look at your GoogleAnalytics, you're going to see
that the majority of your hitsto your website are probably 30
seconds or less.
Yeah, and that's mainly becausepeople get the phone number and
they get it and they're out ofhere.
Chris (11:40):
That's what they want.
So you're finding you're havingthe same conversation with
people today you were havingwith the Yellow Pitch crowd, the
digital sort of I want to be onInstagram or Facebook instead
of doing a more traditional adparticularly with the radio.
Warren (11:55):
You're 100% right.
We have developed and changedover the last 15 years more than
I did in the first 30 years ofmy business the last 10 years
and so it changes, and itchanges every single day.
The algorithms change withGoogle and so forth.
It's hard to keep up with, butit is a digital world.
(12:17):
I understand that.
But, as I said to you,gentlemen, before, when we were
prepping, 92% of all Americansstill listen to terrestrial
radio.
Yeah, it's incredible.
Yeah, you can say whatever youwant.
You can say you know.
And the biggest, when we tellthem we're going to a new client
, the biggest problem we havewith a new client is telling
them don't buy media that youyourself digest or ingest and so
(12:43):
forth, because you like it, anddon't not buy something because
you don't like it.
I don't care what you like, youdon't like, I gotta know what
your customer identify yourtarget market.
The target market absolutely,you know if it's country radio
and you hate country radio andyou stay away from it.
But yet country radio is whatyour your.
Chris (13:00):
Your market is listen to you, buy country radio yeah,
it's very simple and since this,you know, this market down here
in the Cape is probably aging.
I think it's like 55 is prettymuch the age I think average age
or something like that.
It's almost.
There's one number here I waslooking at it's 85% of those
people in the age of 65 andolder listen to AM FM radio.
(13:20):
Yeah, so that's a huge number85%.
I wish this stunned me.
But again, that's why probablythe Bobby Downspout that whole
advertising campaign is sosuccessful down here on the Cape
.
Warren (13:32):
Oh, it's phenomenal, and it goes against my thinking of
60-second ads.
Bobby Downspout is 60 seconds.
Bobby Downspout could betwo-minute ads if we wanted to,
because they're enjoyable,they're fun to listen to and
memorable.
Dennis (13:46):
We wanted to tell a story.
Each time it's hard to.
We're not advertising our nameand our phone number.
We're trying to tell a storyand it takes 60 seconds to tell
the story, I believe.
Let me tell you that we talkedabout products radio, it's TV,
it's digital but service is huge.
The reason so, warren, I thinkyou and I met in about 2019.
(14:11):
It was pre-COVID.
I had a problem.
I was struggling with theiHeartRadio the four iHeart
stations down here and they usedto be locally owned.
It was Quantum Radio up untilabout 10 years ago and those
four stations were bought out byiheart media and my rep at the
time was johnny cool.
He's the voice, he's the onethat says no monkeys were harmed
(14:33):
in the making of thiscommercial.
Chris (14:34):
I was wondering how he came into the.
Dennis (14:35):
That's his voice, okay he used to work for quantum cool
, then johnny cool we call himthat because of the cool 102
radio station we were on.
And Johnny lost a little bit ofpower when iHeart bought the
company because it went frombeing locally owned to now owned
by a national chain of 958 orsome large number of radio
(14:58):
stations and I wasn't gettingthe slotting times.
I wasn't getting my morningdrive, my evening drive.
They were running my ads,sometimes at 8, 10 at night,
sometimes at 2 or 3 in themorning.
And at this point Lori andWarren said let me fix that for
you.
And so they didn't change theproduct.
(15:21):
The product is still radio.
What it was was service.
And Warren fixed it.
He not only fixed it with theiHeart stations.
At that point I said let mejust turn all of my radio
advertising over to you and yourteam.
I still make the ads, I stillgo to the radio stations, I
(15:42):
still talk to all the DJs andthe recording people, then the
studio managers.
I still know all those people.
What Warren does is a number ofthings.
Number one, first of all, hegives me some insight.
Oh, you're opening a new God ofMonkey franchise up on the
South Shore or up on Southeast,they'll recommend some radio
stations for me.
(16:02):
Now I still research it.
I want to make sure that it's atarget market.
But after that, what PallyAdvertising does for me is they
help with the placement, makesure I get my morning drive and
my evening drive and any otherslotting times.
They also help me get somebonus slots which I never knew
was available.
Yeah, that's key.
So I would say I mean I reviewprobably once a month my radio
(16:27):
ads at the end of the month, myradio ads at the end of the
month, and I think that umLaurie and Warren are probably
responsible for getting me about20% additional ads from what
I'm paying for.
And and we always sign one yearcontracts.
So in my company we want to letthe radio stations know that
(16:48):
we're on board for another yearwe're not coming in for a month
or two to see if it works knowthat we're on board for another
year, we're not coming in for amonth or two to see if it works.
And when I have that amount ofpower that we're bringing, and
then I have Pally Advertisingworking alongside of us.
It's just we get so much morebang for the buck.
Warren (17:03):
He gets to be the good cop, he gets to go to the
station, get the car.
Chris (17:08):
Be the Bobby Downspout Be .
Warren (17:09):
Bobby Downspout.
They love him, they hug him,and then we go beat up the
stations for rate.
We get a good rate and then weget the bonuses.
But on top of that too, as yousaid today is, it's not enough
to buy a commercial anymore.
You have to have added value,and that added value might be a
news sponsorship or a trafficsponsorship or a weather
(17:31):
sponsorship in this particularcase.
Uh, then you know the uh.
This weather is being broughtto you by the uh cape cod gutter
, monkeys, and we don't pay forthat but again, it's just
mentions and mentions, because Ithink the last study I saw said
that a potential new customerhas to be exposed, has to be hit
3.2 times either.
Chris (17:52):
I agree with that.
I've touched on those numbers acouple of times in the podcast.
Warren (17:54):
Yeah, you've either got to hear it, see it on digital,
see it, drive by it on abillboard.
See it on trucks.
Chris (18:00):
We talk about our panel trucks.
How many hits do you get?
Warren (18:02):
a day on a panel truck, thousands and thousands of hits.
Dennis (18:05):
Yeah, the other day we were making some radio
commercials up on the SouthShore.
So we were making some radiocommercials up on the South
Shore so I was visiting WATD inMarshfield and then we headed
down and we met up with thefolks at WPLM in Plymouth and
(18:27):
when I get back home it wasactually yesterday and earlier
today there's some backgroundmusic that they didn't have.
So I called up the folks overat Codcom down here in Hyannis
and they all communicate, theyknow each other, and so my
friends at Codcom sent thenecessary background music up to
WATD in Marshfield so that youknow that would be the type of
(18:48):
commercial that we wanted toreplicate.
And there's a lot ofcooperation within the industry.
And what Warren does and histeam is they make sure that
everybody knows what everybody's.
They keep everybody on the samepage, at least in my world, and
it's really a smooth transition.
And there's some truth to whatwhat he says is I go make the
(19:09):
ads and we have coffeeafterwards and we hang out and
we talk and it's very fun.
And he and his team I don'tknow what they do, but they get
me free ads, they get me freeplacement, they get me good
placements.
They really do take care of theend of business.
That to me would be verydifficult.
Chris (19:25):
Yeah, that's one of the questions I was going to have is
like if I was a small businessguy coming to you today, you
know, why would I spend?
I've got all these ways of.
I can hire a fiver or somethingof $10 an hour to write digital
ads for me and do all thisstuff.
Why would I come to atraditional company like you?
You guys have already answeredthat question here.
This is almost paying for yoursleep to the advertising company
(19:45):
.
Warren (19:45):
Well, Dennis is smart enough to know his time is worth
money and his time is not worthsitting negotiating rates and
checking invoices to see whattime.
Sure, yeah, it's better off toto to give it to somebody like
us who are going to.
We, we have a manager in thebusiness office who looks over
(20:07):
all the invoices and makes surethat what was ordered ran and it
ran at the right time, and ifit isn't, then there's going to
be either a credit or additionalspots coming the next month.
A new client that we talked to.
It's no different discussiontoday than it was 43 years ago
when we started.
Chris, that discussion is okay.
What are your needs?
What do you feel your needs are?
The biggest mistake that theseclients make is they spread
(20:31):
their budgets way too thin.
Chris (20:33):
Yeah, they go to that.
Warren (20:34):
X amount, whatever that budget is, whether it's $5,000 a
month or $50,000 a month, theywant everything.
They want digital, they wantbillboards, they want this.
And then what happens ifthey're not using us?
They do it on their own.
They do it for two or threemonths and all of a sudden it's
not getting the results and theyfreak and they cut.
Oh, radio doesn't work becauseI tried it for three months.
Dennis (20:56):
I've heard that so many times.
I tried that last month.
I tried that last month.
It didn't work.
Warren (21:01):
Then you find out they were on the wrong station.
Identify who your client, whoyour customer is.
You have to identify.
They think well, it's everybody.
No, it isn't.
Even Cape Cod gutter monkeys.
It's not.
Everybody is not your potentialcustomer.
No, absolutely not.
You've got to have a home,you've got to have gutters on
that home, yeah right.
So now you're getting narrowerand narrower and so forth and
(21:24):
we're able to go in and find outwho those people are and where
they live.
It's really not much different.
We deal with multi-generationalfamily companies.
That was our niche over theyears Worcester, now down to the
Cape, companies like EagleLeasing out of South Grove.
Chris (21:42):
I know those guys Drive by them all the time.
Warren (21:44):
Yeah, we're dealing with the second generation,
southwick Zoo.
We're dealing with the thirdgeneration, nesh.
Yeah, wow and so neshoba,neshoba valley ski area.
Chris (21:54):
Neshoba valley ski area.
Yeah, are you those commercials?
Those are good jingles too theystick in your brain.
Second, the second uh, secondgeneration we're dealing with
there um all the furniturecompanies in worcester like, uh,
rodman's, you mentionedrodman's, yeah yeah, we dealt.
Warren (22:09):
That was one of my first clients many, many years ago.
They had great commercials.
Chris (22:13):
They had classic commercials.
Warren (22:15):
They were not using radio when I joined WTAG Radio
at the time, coming out ofSyracuse, and I came up with a
concept at the time to put BarryRotman.
The concept was we will goanywhere to furnish or carpet
your home.
Yeah, so we hadry on the moon,we had barry at valley forge, we
(22:35):
had.
We had him in the desert, wehad him everywhere, we had him
on the titanic.
What a great concept, wow.
And you know, it's radio, it'stheater of the mind right, just
like you guys yeah, bobby,downspout, it's not.
It's no different than it was 43years that's so cool.
What a great idea and, and theyloved it.
They ate it up and they becameone of the largest radio users
(22:57):
at the time.
Chris (22:58):
This is probably pre-Jordan's Furniture too right
.
Warren (23:00):
Yes, it was.
Chris (23:01):
Yeah, so Jordan's Furniture kind of picked up on
this.
It seems like all the furniturecompanies had great commercials
.
They were all kind of competingeach other, but along the same
lines of that commercial.
Warren (23:09):
What we try to find, chris, is you have to identify.
We call it the USP, your uniqueselling proposition.
What is it that you offer,service-wise or product-wise,
that your competition doesn'thave, or they have it, but they
don't market it?
And the biggest example of thatthat I learned years ago was
(23:31):
Folgers Coffee, you remember?
Chris (23:33):
Mrs Olson Sure.
Warren (23:34):
You remember Mrs Olson, right, yeah?
And the neighbor would say MrsOlson, why is Folgers Coffee so
good?
And she would say because it'smountain grown.
Yeah, wow, what a concept.
All coffee is mountain grown.
Dennis (23:47):
Sure.
Warren (23:47):
But nobody else jumped on that.
Dennis (23:50):
Until Juan Valdez did Until Juan Valdez.
Warren (23:53):
And Folgers even had that little mountain logo.
Sure, yeah, sure, on the keyMountain grown.
Chris (23:58):
That was like the.
Was it Lucky Strikes, thecigarettes Roasted.
Toasted tobacco Toasted tobaccoToasted tobacco Wow, they got
toasted tobacco.
That must make it a reallygreat cigarette, yeah they're
all toasted great cigarettes.
They're all toasted.
They all had to go through theoven, that's exactly right, it's
(24:18):
crazy.
Warren (24:18):
So once you can get somebody to identify that,
that's step two.
After you've found out who yourcustomer is, and so forth, and
then being trusted trust peoplelike ourselves enough to say,
okay, you guys put somethingtogether.
Come back to me, and anytime wemake a presentation to a client
, we always had two ideasminimum.
And they say, well, why two?
If you're coming to me withyour best idea, why are there
(24:38):
two?
Well, because 99% of the timeyou're going to hear after you
make your first presentation iswhat else you got, and I go, oh,
okay, well, we happen to havethis one.
We have this presentation aswell, and so it's a lot of fun,
though that's the good thingabout this is, I've always,
always, enjoyed it.
Chris (24:57):
Yeah, you mentioned trust there just a minute ago.
I'm wondering if this BobbyDownspout, one of the reasons
why it's so popular in the Capeis because, again, with more of
an elderly crowd or more elderlyradio audience.
Maybe that's a big part of it,because Bobby Downspout reminds
me of a lot of those furniturecommercials and he is sort of
this trustful guy, the guy youcan believe in.
He's going to show up on timeand do your gutters.
(25:18):
He's like your next doorneighbor, kind of like the
quirky next door neighbor sortof guy.
So probably plays a lot intothat ad.
Warren (25:24):
If you hear enough of the Bobby Downspout ads, you
actually it's the informationthat he's giving you not just
you, but your guest on thecommercial, whoever that might
be.
That information makes youtrust what they're saying.
And so, but then it's comingfrom quote unquote, a reliable
source.
Nobody has any idea what BobbyDon Spout looks like.
(25:45):
He could be tall, he could beshort.
Nobody has.
They don't care, they trustwhat they're hearing.
Chris (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, they know him .
You know him because they'veheard him in the past.
They know him.
He's like your next-doorneighbor.
He's that guy in the radio adsyou used to hear way back when.
Warren (26:00):
It's consistency.
Chris (26:01):
That's the other thing that's really interesting.
Warren (26:04):
Staying with it.
As I said to you before, wehave a client that runs
something for a month or two andsays, oh, I ran that radio and
it didn't work.
You didn't stay with it.
You have to let it take holdthose seeds got to grow, and so
forth, and give it a chance.
You have to do it.
Chris (26:23):
Yeah, that's interesting.
You said that because if you gothrough all the Bobby Don's
about once, which I actuallyhave been going through quite a
bit of them yeah, they're prettyconsistent from today and the
original ones.
They haven't really changedthat much.
Warren (26:34):
They're informational One of my rules.
Dennis (26:38):
So I always introduce myself as Bobby Downspout here
with the South Shore GutterMonkeys, and then we go forward
and I'll usually I try tomention in this case South Shore
Gutter Monkeys five times andthe phone number once or twice.
It's easy to do, it doesn'tsound repetitive if you
(26:58):
carefully script your ad.
Chris (27:01):
That's crazy.
I've never noticed that before.
Dennis (27:03):
Five and two I have to go back and look at that,
because here's what happens.
You'll often hear BobbyDownspout say so.
Call the South Shore GutterMonkeys at 508-477-9100 or visit
us atSouthShoreGutterMonkeyscom.
That's two mentions, rightthere.
Right, exactly, and all youhave to do is you hit it at the
beginning, you hit it twice atthe end and once or twice in the
(27:25):
middle, and we do itconsistently, and you're
delivering your main message.
We are all things gutters,gutter cleaning, gutter installs
, repairs and maintenances andyou're also directing them.
You're branding the name.
It takes a long time, though,and we're still growing year
(27:49):
after year.
Our gross sales is growing allthe time, and we're still
growing year after year.
Our gross sales is growing allthe time, which indicates that
there's always new people whoare looking for our services,
and we spend the same dollaramount every month.
I don't increase it in thewinter.
I don't increase it or decreaseit in the summer or the fall.
I never play games with that.
(28:09):
It's the same.
It's called branding.
We're not advertising.
We're not advertising, we'renot marketing.
We're branding so that we'reliving in your brain rent-free
all the time is the goal when wego through good economic times,
advertising is looked at by ourclients as an investment.
Warren (28:27):
When we hit rough times and, believe me, you're not sure
, as we're sitting here, I thinkin the 43 years I've been
through three or four reallygood recessions it's the first
thing to get cut is advertisingwhy?
Well, it's a line item, it's anexpense.
It's no longer an investment.
It's become an expense that wecan do without and we can cut it
(28:48):
because I said well, are youstill in business?
Are you still selling X, y, z?
Well, yeah, we're just notselling as much.
So why would you cut it out?
Why would you?
Dennis (28:59):
There's still people out there.
Warren (29:00):
The world didn't come to a stop.
You have to keep the wheelschurning on the train.
Maybe the train's going alittle bit slower and maybe it
doesn't go as far as it used to,but you don't take the train
off the track.
You just don't do that, andthat's one of the biggest.
So every eight to 10 years Ihave to go through this with
clients.
Chris (29:21):
COVID was a big one.
Dennis, you've got aninteresting story about COVID,
how you just came across theradio ads that were so much
cheaper during COVID and youjust took advantage of that.
Dennis (29:26):
Well, what happened was.
It was somewhere around March15th or March 23rd of 20.
I was over at CODCOM.
I was meeting with Lori Lori,she's one of my favorite radio
people and we had just cut a fewcommercials.
And Trevor, one of my coworkers, t-bone we call him T-Bone and
(29:47):
I were coming downstairs becausehe's one of the straight guys
that I have in the commercials.
And we're coming downstairs andTim, who is the general manager
of CODCOM, which is four radiostations.
It has since been purchased.
It's still called CODCOM, butthe LLC, I think, is Coxwain
Media.
(30:08):
So we were coming downstairs,the governor had just issued a
shutdown of the state and Tim,the general manager, said hey,
dan, you want to sit in on ameeting we're having?
And I said sure.
And it was all the importantpeople within that organization
and they were talking about whatjust happened and they lost all
(30:29):
of their auto dealerships andall of the restaurants, because
April is when the restaurants onCape Cod really kick it into
gear.
And I think Tim said he hadjust lost 72% of his potential
advertising.
And I remember I said somethingreally stupid at that meeting.
I said no, no, no, no, no.
(30:49):
These are going to be some hardtimes we've got coming up.
This is when you double down onyour advertising.
And then Tim said somethinglike yeah, I think everybody
should know that.
So I was back here in the officewe weren't in this building yet
, we were still in the oldbuilding and my accountant, my
banker, a lot of people weresaying there's some PPP loans
(31:11):
out there, all kinds of COVIDmoney being given out, and I
don't like to take a governmentmoney.
That because I know there's astring attached to it on the
other end and maybe two, threeyears from now there's going to
be recall.
So I said to my wife Babs Isaid you give it 30 minutes.
If it takes more than 30minutes to figure out all the
(31:32):
compliance and fill out the form, we're not doing it.
Meanwhile, I think we were onabout 10 radio stations at the
time and I called each of thestation managers and I said
something like I want to pick upa bunch of your vacant spots.
You need some revenue.
I could probably use some moreadvertising.
So they cut me some really gooddeals on and Warren and I were
(31:57):
doing business at the time.
They threw me a lot ofadvertising slots at a fraction
of the price because they neededto fill that void.
So we signed a one-year contract, I think, with an extension.
So I basically got a muchlarger footprint for two years
(32:19):
at a time when we didn't knowwhat was coming.
But it was easy to fit it inthe budget.
We got it and, honestly, weboomed during COVID and the next
year were huge years for us.
We did not have a down yearduring COVID and that, to me,
just was, I think, a gooddecision.
And we never did take the PPmoney, the PPP money and I
(32:41):
remember talking to so many ofmy associates and friends in the
business world post-covid wherethey're trying to wrap that
whole thing up and and do theyhave to repay it?
Warren (32:50):
and if they do, you know and they were going through
that and we didn't have to spendtime or effort on that I don't
think people realize that theautomotive you talked about, the
automotive marketing that gotcut, yeah still hasn't rebounded
totally yet and I don't know ifit ever will with the
automotive.
But people don't realize withradio and TV companies that
automotive is anywhere from 25%to 30% of their revenue.
Dennis (33:13):
Wow.
Warren (33:13):
Yeah, wow, and it's year-round.
It's year-round and a lot of ithasn't come back.
I think maybe 10% has come back.
Dennis (33:21):
I know the folks over at Marty's Trucks up in Kingston,
plymouth, kingston I think, exit9 up there and then we also buy
all of our service trucks overat Falmouth Toyota.
It's actually in Bourne now,but I know those guys real well.
And, yeah, the auto industry,especially the trucks industry,
(33:43):
it's not the same anymore.
It takes longer to get them andI talked to these folks and I
see what they're going through.
Covid really changed theirindustry.
It didn't change mine.
We're in the home serviceindustry.
It was a little bump in the road, a hurdle and a wrench, and we
got through it and everythingseems to be back.
You know, on a normal level,except aluminum.
(34:05):
Pre-covid was always 88 to 92cents a pound.
Now I'm I'm paying 380 a pound,think about 90 cents.
And it was level at 90 centsfor a long time, yeah, like four
or five, six years in a row,and now it's at 380, 3, 375, 380
a pound.
So when there's talk abouttariffs and possible increase in
(34:27):
aluminum, it could happen.
But we had to go up a littlebit in our prices, not a lot,
but we did and we moved forward.
Chris (34:34):
So it seems like a good idea to have someone like an
advertising group, like you, inyour back pocket.
In times like that.
It's almost like having a CFP.
We were talking about CFPs lastweek.
Right, when the market takes acrash, you need someone like a
CFP your financial advisor youcan go to and he'll say we've
been through this before, don'tworry about it, this is how we
handle it.
There's a lot of opportunityhere, sort of the same thing
with advertising companies.
(34:55):
If I got you, I can business 42years to say, hey, wait a
minute, I've seen this before,here's your opportunities you
can take advantage of thoseAbsolutely, because, look,
there's less clutter, if youthink about it A radio station,
digital billboards, tv.
Warren (35:15):
There's less of your gutter cleaning companies
advertising.
There's less car dealersadvertising.
The ones that do advertisestick out.
Yeah sure you're not competingagainst.
You know, five minutes lateranother commercial from another
uh competitor or or so forth.
So you really do stick outduring that time period and it's
again.
It takes, it's a podcast.
(35:37):
I can say it takes balls to beable to stick with it and spend
that and sign that check everymonth for the advertising.
During tough times it reallydoes.
But Dennis stuck by it andstayed with it and it paid
dividends.
Chris (35:49):
It's the same thing sticking in the market, not
ripping all your money out ofthe market when the market
crashes.
Right, exactly Because you'rewith someone that knows seen it
before they've been through it,they can tell you all the war
stories and kind of get throughit.
Dennis (36:00):
Yeah, you'll often hear me talk about your inner circle.
You know, and everybody who'sin business, for example, needs
an accountant.
You need a banker, you know youneed a financial planner.
You need an attorney, you needa marketing consultant.
These are people that should bein your loop before you need
them, right Right, so that whenyou need them, they know your
(36:25):
platform, they have your history.
And remember too, chris Warren,any one of us you are the
average of the five people thatyou are closest to in any world,
in your business world or inyour personal world.
I try to surround myself withpeople that are smarter than me
(36:47):
and people that have skill setsthat I don't have, and when you
do that, it makes me we all riseto tide together.
That's why you want to havepeople like Warren and his whole
team, and we're going throughsome interesting stuff right now
.
It's so great to have thesepeople here because they know my
history.
Yeah, sure you know.
(37:08):
We don't have to explain thebackstory.
It's just a quick phone calland boom, we're moving forward.
Chris (37:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
How do you guys see sort ofyour relationship going forward?
I know things are changingstill.
I mean, the baby boomers areaging out and things like that.
Do you see, this is going to besort of probably a gradual
change, but do you anticipateany sort of changes coming up
near term?
Warren (37:29):
Well, we've been working on.
You know this as well.
We've got to get BobbyDownspout further out there and
in a different area.
You can't buy any more radiothan you're buying on Cape Cod.
For the franchisees it'sanother story.
But I know we've been workingon some animation and so forth
(37:53):
to get Bobby Downspout out therein front of people, whether
it's through cable buying RedSox, bruins, celtics games on
Nessun and that type of thing,or digitally sending out, even
on the website, having BobbyDownspout come out and say hello
to you once you click into thewebsite on the homepage so
giving a quick 15-second.
Hi, I'm Bobby Downspout.
You've heard of me.
Now you get to.
You know, aren't I agood-looking guy, that type of
(38:17):
thing.
So I see there's more therethat we've got planned and so
forth.
As far as the tools you that'sobviously digital is is, uh,
invaluable.
We, we've got to be there.
There's going to be youngerhomeowners starting to use your
services and they're going to bethe as they get older and buy,
buy homes and so forth.
They've already been throughthe digital training.
(38:39):
They understand it more thanthe 60 yearyear-old of five
years ago versus the 60-year-oldfive years from now are going
to be two different people.
Chris (38:47):
Sure yeah a little bit different.
That's going to be tricky too,because I know in the digital
market just since I've beenworking on it and that's not my
background.
I came from a high-techbackground.
This is kind of my secondcareer or third.
It's probably my fifth digitalmarketing ever evolving digital
marketing, podcasting and stuff.
But yeah, even inside that mark,just in the time I've been
doing, it's changed so much.
How much more it's gone.
(39:07):
It's gone from Facebook toInstagram.
You know we're into Tik TOK nowand YouTube's taking off.
Now YouTube is becoming thedominant marketing platform,
right?
Uh, podcasts, uh, videos,everything it's become YouTube.
So it's going to be changingquite a bit.
It's going to be tricky, it'snot going to be as
(39:27):
straightforward, I think, as TVversus radio or something like
that.
Inside digital marketingthere's going to be who knows
what it will be.
Warren (39:31):
And it's not the answer for everybody.
It's not the silver bullet thateverybody thinks it is, because
one of the biggest problems wehave is trying to back people
off when they call and go.
I got to get into digital, Igot to be on YouTube, I got to
be on timeout.
Now, all right, you have a onelocation company your customers
come from, maybe 20 miles around.
(39:51):
Let's not get crazy here.
Dennis (39:53):
That's so true.
Warren (39:54):
Home Depot, they got to be, they got to be on YouTube,
because everybody's there, theircustomer, and so forth.
But if you're a small clothingstore, for example, or whatever,
a fine men's clothing store,and you want to, I get.
Oh, I've got to be on socialmedia, I have to be on Instagram
.
No, you don't.
Chris (40:13):
You don't have to Such a distraction too.
It's a lot of work, trust me,it's just a lot of work.
Warren (40:18):
Exactly, but it's a herd mentality.
Everybody's following the sheepand so forth, everybody's there
.
And you know what we always sayto our clients that digital
hole is a black hole.
Oh, I know.
You can just keep tossing moneyinto that and somebody will
come back and say to you well,look at all the hits you hit.
You had this many hits, yeah,but my business didn't increase.
Dennis (40:41):
Yeah, it didn't make the phone ring.
Chris (40:42):
It didn't make the phone ring it didn't make the phone
ring it didn't make the metermove.
Yeah, it's a hard market tofigure out whether you're
actually hitting your targetmarkets there.
And it's getting even hardernow with cookies and everything
going away.
Warren (40:52):
I mean that's a whole other story, but yeah, it's even
getting more difficult andGoogle just loves to get on the
phone and call people and try tosell them into all types of
things Brutal.
Chris (41:01):
Yeah, Now they've got bots that'll answer your ads
just to make you feel good.
It's just insane.
Warren (41:07):
Exactly.
Chris (41:08):
So we did touch on it a little bit.
Cape Cod Gutter Monkeys is afranchise of AGM.
Bobby Downspout has beenrepresenting Cape Cod Gutter
Monkeys for many years.
But we kind of want to getBobby Downspout out into our
franchises and things like that.
So that's kind of a transitionwe're going to have to sort of
work with you on, I guess, to beable to figure out.
Warren (41:29):
I see Bobby Downspout is the next Bob from.
Dennis (41:30):
Bob's Furniture.
These guys Warren's team washere probably three weeks ago.
We had a meeting and we'vebegun acting on that meeting.
We've taken two of our currentradio stations that were on cat
country and uh wplm each.
They're the two largest uhgeographically.
(41:51):
Also the towers and the powerthat they put out 50 000 watts
per and um.
So we just started building ournew platform.
The other day, monday, I was upthere to those stations making
some new radio ads that areregional ads, okay, and so this
(42:11):
is one of the new strategies andthis was from a meeting that.
Were you at that meeting, chris?
A month or so, three, fourweeks ago.
Chris (42:19):
No, no, I think I missed that one.
Dennis (42:21):
Warren was here, laurie was here, andy, bruce, myself, a
couple of us were here and,yeah, we were bouncing things
around, and so we've startedmoving in that direction this
week, because next week is March3rd.
This is when we launch our newstrategy for the year, and you
always have to be thinking thatway if you're a growing company,
(42:45):
right, and that's why it's goodto have opinions from people
who I don't work with every day.
Warren (42:51):
Yeah, it's important that we find a way to keep Bobby
Downspout and the Gutter Monkeyfamily likable, and local
People like to do business withlocal companies.
So as we branch out off Cape tothe other franchisees
geographically I mean we'regoing up looking to the north,
(43:11):
up to New Hampshire, maine,we're looking south at different
coastal regions and so forththat has to translate.
Bobby Downspout's commercialand message has to translate
into we're a local company, callus, we'll be there.
You're going to talk to a humanbeing when you call and we're
going to book, we'll sendsomebody out and give you a free
(43:35):
estimate.
So the marketing has to.
We have to be able to take itfrom the Cape where it grew and
transfer it to these otherregions.
And we have to make sure thatwe're buying the right radio
stations.
The right radio station in NewHampshire might be different
than the right radio station onCape Cod, and so we have to do a
lot of research and talk to thestations.
Chris (43:52):
It's very important.
I always find it interesting.
You guys are always talkingabout radio strength and
demographics and things likethat, and where's the radio
tower located, and things likethat.
Warren (44:01):
Well, that's interesting , it's important, All of that's
interesting.
It's important, all of that isimportant and Dennis has spent a
lot of time looking at that aswell.
We look at formats.
Today, as I said to you, 92% ofAmericans are listening to
terrestrial radio.
Everybody says, well, satelliteradio, satellite radio, it's
wonderful, 500 stations,whatever.
(44:21):
But what happens is you getsatellite radio free for the
first year.
When you buy a new car themajority of the people do not
renew.
Chris (44:28):
I'm going through that right now.
Yeah, I'm going through thatright now.
Warren (44:30):
The majority of the people do not renew their
subscription to satellite radiothe second year.
So it's a wonderful thing.
But if you go into the car,most people most people again
will have minimum somewherearound three to four stations,
as opposed to years ago when weused to have all these presets
and we'd have a dozen or sostations.
Today they everybody has a, aone music station, they've got a
(44:52):
sports talk station, yeah, andso forth, if they might mean you
know males and so, and theymight have a news talk, but
that's pretty much.
That's it, because people stillwant local information.
They want to hear somebodytalking about the local
restaurant, they want to hear,uh, local weather, traffic and
so forth.
They're just not listening toas many stations.
So our job becomes a littlemore difficult.
Chris (45:13):
We have to narrow that down and find those stations and
those markets that are going toserve yeah, we've been talking
recently with you aboutfranchise down south and uh, so
their radio footprint isn'tquite the same as Cape.
Maybe things aren't working outas well for them.
So you're down there kind oftinkering and figuring out how
this particular franchise isgoing to take advantage of Bobby
Downspout Radio.
Warren (45:44):
put a franchise in a triangle of three different
corners, of three states andthat you can't afford.
Can't afford to buy all threestates.
It's not easy, so we have toreally count on information and
feedback from the franchisee.
As to you got to tell me youknow what, five, ten miles, I
can't go 20, 30 miles out.
Yeah, can't afford to do thatand you gotta to buy.
You got to buy the rightstations.
Dennis (46:01):
It's very important creating the culture to create a
brand.
It's a culture.
You know burger king is outmarketing on tv anyway
mcdonald's.
I don't think mcdonald's needsto brand in that way as heavily
as burger king because last timeI checked mcdonald's still was
number one in the fast foodindustry as far as annual sales.
(46:26):
But you see Burger King tryingto create this new culture now
with their radio and their TVadvertising.
They're singing these funkytunes that don't sound that
attractive but it sticks in yourbrain.
Tuned that don't sound thatattractive but it sticks in your
(46:46):
brain.
One of my lifelong philosophieson advertising, and especially
for the upstart business, forthe rookie, is advertising is
expensive only if it doesn'tmake the phone ring.
I don't care anymore how muchwe spend.
I know I'm not going tooverspend.
But if there's a new radiostation as we move and expand
(47:08):
our region, if there's a radiostation that hits my demographic
and Warren says we need to put$2,800 a month, we're doing it
Because I know it's going tooutproduce, not advertising.
$2,801 of business means I'm onthe positive side.
So once we figure out whatworks and we've replicated it
(47:33):
two, three, four, five times, wecan go to a new location and
say, okay, we know what ourtarget demographic is Age.
We know what our targetdemographic is Age, region,
location, income level, so onand so forth.
All right, and this is whatthey listen to, and boom, that's
where we go.
Advertising is expensive onlyif it doesn't make the phone
(47:57):
ring.
If that's something that I canhave the upstart business owner
just wrap his mind around, that,it's huge.
It's huge.
Warren (48:06):
I remember many years ago, before Neshoba Valley Ski
Area, we handled WachusettMountain and the Crowley family.
And I remember David CrowleyGod bless his soul just passed
away this past year.
And I remember David saying andthey were spending God that
time they had to be spending400,000 a year between TV and oh
(48:28):
, easy, easy, yeah.
So.
But remember they were gettinga lot of bonus on top of that.
Sure, oh yeah, yeah, they're sowell-branded, so well-branded.
But anyways, I remember himsitting in the meeting and
saying to us I really couldtheoretically stop my
advertising.
We're so well-known, I couldstop for a whole ski season, try
to save a few bucks and savesome money, and so forth and so
forth.
He says, but I'm afraid, I'mafraid to do it, I'm afraid what
(48:51):
the alternative could be, andthat's why I don't do it.
Dennis (48:57):
You work it into your platform.
Yeah, my monthly marketingbudget.
Once we set it, it's aone-year-long agreement and then
we reestablish it a year later,maybe add some slotting time.
But it's part of the budgetevery month, just like payroll
or replenishing my stock.
(49:20):
So I don't not order productfrom my warehouse because we
have plenty of it.
Let's not order it this month.
It's part of the budget.
You keep your inventory updated.
You keep your payroll up todate and you keep your marketing
budget on budget.
(49:40):
Those are normal monthlyexpenses.
In the end, we know what toexpect.
Your payroll up to date and youkeep your marketing budget on
budget Correct.
Those are normal monthlyexpenses and in the end, we know
what to expect.
I agree, warren, I could cancelall my radio advertising and
we'd still probably have areally great year this year, but
then I got that recovery.
You don't want to do that.
Chris (49:59):
Oh, you'd have my mom saying I haven't heard the
gutter monkeys ad.
Dennis (50:03):
Oh no, no you can't do that, it's the big one,
elizabeth, I'm coming.
It's the big one.
No, I think your friends fromWachusett are right.
Yeah, if you're branding, ifyou're digital marketing and
there's other things I meandigital pop-up ads they're not
sort of the branding type ofthing that I use radio for you
(50:23):
know, direct marketing or directmail.
Direct mail you send it out,you get a response, and there's
not a whole lot of brandawareness being built there.
Right, it's, it's it's directresponse.
I'm sending you this and it'sthis is for, you know, labor Day
weekend, and it's it's nevergoing to happen again.
So come down and buy your carthis week.
(50:45):
Proper branding, yeah, it couldallow you to stop advertising
and at the pace you're going,you might run for another year
or two, but you don't want to dothat.
Chris (50:55):
You also talk about how it kind of keeps the foot on the
neck of your competitors aswell right.
Absolutely so.
Every time they continuallyhear your radio ads over and
over and over again, it just youknow it is kind of you got your
foot on their neck while I takeit off.
Warren (51:09):
Exactly.
I think one of the greatestexamples of consistency of
branding was even in the carbusiness was Herb Chambers.
Dennis (51:18):
Yeah, he just sold for $1.2 billion.
Warren (51:19):
He just sold his 40 dealerships last week for $1.2
billion.
He just sold his 40 dealershipslast week for $1.2 billion.
But they don't advertise.
Over the years, if you look athis billboards, they never
advertised price on item.
It was always some message andso forth we don't sell cars, we
help people buy them.
Those kind of messages and soforth.
Chris (51:40):
Ernie Bach was great at this too as well.
Even his son was really good.
His son is very innovative aswell.
In fact, he has his own sort ofBobby Downspout.
I don't know if you've everseen the animated Ernie Bach Jr.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and he's amusician, he's a cultural type
of icon?
Dennis (51:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
And now his kids and, I believe, his grandkids.
But his kids are you know.
They're working them into thestorylines.
Yeah, I saw one very recently.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris (52:06):
Okay, well, we're kind of wrapping it up here.
Dennis (52:07):
Yeah, it's been a long hour.
It's a good way to go.
Chris (52:09):
It's very interesting We've gone for quite a while.
Warren (52:11):
Yeah, absolutely, we'll have you back again.
Oh, I would love to BobbyDownspout journey.
So we'll keep you informedabout that and try to stay up on
the next chapter.
The next chapter.
Chris (52:25):
Warren thanks for joining us, my pleasure.
Thanks for being with us todayon Monkey Business Radio.
Dennis (52:30):
As always, we'll go out with no monkeys were harmed in
the making of this podcast.
There you go.
Chris (52:36):
All right, thank you very much.
See you next time.
Thank you for tuning in toMonkey Business Radio.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please make sure to subscribe,
like and follow us wherever youget your podcasts.
It really helps us reach moreaspiring entrepreneurs like you.
If you got a question or topicyou'd like us to cover, leave a
(52:57):
comment or reach out to us onsocial media.
We'd love to hear your thoughtsand keep the conversation going
.
Don't forget to leave us afive-star review if you found
the episode valuable and makesure to share it with anyone who
might benefit from our tips andstories.
We'll see you next time.
This podcast is produced byAmerican Gutter Monkeys LLC.
Build real wealth throughbusiness ownership.
(53:19):
For details, visit us atAmericanGutterMonkeyscom.
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