June 3, 2025 • 32 mins
Recessions, inflation, supply chain disruptions—every business faces storms sooner or later. The question is, are you ready for them?
In this episode, Dennis Siggins draws from more than 40 years of business experience to share what really works when it comes to building a recession-proof small business. We talk about how to read the signs of a downturn before it hits, why keeping strong financial records matters more than ever, how to build the cash reserves that can keep your business steady, and why carrying too much debt can cause you to miss the opportunities that often arise during tough times.
We also dive into lessons from past downturns—including the 1970s, the 2008 financial crisis, and the COVID era—and why proactive leadership always beats reactive decisions when the economy gets rough.
If you’re building or running a business of your own, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:03):
Every business faces storms, whether it's a
full-blown recession, risingcosts or just a tough stretch
that hits your bottom line.
In this episode, building aRecession-Proof Business, we
talk about how to recognize thesigns early, why your financial
records are one of the mostpowerful tools, and how to make
smart, proactive moves beforethings get worse.
Dennis shares what he's doingright now inside his own
(00:23):
business, from adjusting teamstructure to reworking inventory
strategy.
Plus, we look back at pastdownturns, from the forgotten
recessions of the 70s to the2008 crash, and lessons we
pulled from COVID.
Whether you're running a crew,leading a franchise or just
trying to keep your businesssteady, this one's packed with
real world advice.
We've got a great show for you,so grab a cup of coffee, sit
(00:44):
back, relax and welcome toMonkey Business Radio.
All right, so let's dive in.
Hello, dennis, how are we doingtoday?
Good, chris, how are you today?
Good, good, we've got a greatepisode for you today.
To start today's discussion,let's get grounded in what we're
actually talking about, dennis.
How do you define a recessionbased on what you've seen over
(01:06):
the years?
Dennis (01:07):
There's a lot of varying accounts and definitions for a
recession and to start, whenyou're in a recession, you know
it, the powers that be know it.
A recession is a significantand, generally speaking, a
widespread downturn in oureconomic activity that, by
definition, has to last at leasttwo quarters.
(01:29):
Six months of negative grossdomestic product, negative GDP.
Basically, what that means iswe have two consecutive down
quarters in a row.
It's symptomatically, it's asignificant decline in economic
activity.
Numerically, financiallyspeaking.
A recession by definition hasto last two quarters and it
(01:55):
generally lasts a whole lotlonger than that.
But also the economy may notrecover to its former peaks for
many, many years.
Even though by definition,numerically, mathematically,
financially, we may not be in arecession, by definition, it
sure feels like it.
Chris (02:11):
Yeah, there's lingering effects.
Employment takes a while torecover things like that.
Dennis (02:14):
Yeah, unemployment can remain high.
Chris (02:18):
Bond prices adjust slowly over time.
Dennis (02:20):
Yeah, and I remember the crash of 08.
We'll talk about that in alittle bit, but by definition,
the crash and the recession of08 really lasted about a year
and a half, but the falloutlasted a whole lot longer Years
and years and years to recoverfrom that.
Chris, we grew up in the 70sand I always say that the 70s
(02:42):
the greatest recession thatnobody talks about.
I spent an hour or so yesterdaybopping around doing a little
bit of research and seeing whatpeople think and say about the
70s and one of the things I cameup with is they identify three
or four minor recessionsthroughout the 70s.
No-transcript.
(03:33):
If the gas was even available,terms like stagflation,
hyperinflation, were a part ofthe 70s.
What was the interest rates?
Chris (03:42):
on a mortgage back then.
Dennis (03:43):
My first house.
I bought end of 81 into 82.
We closed and I paid primewhich was 18 plus three.
I paid 21% interest on my firstmortgage but I think it peaked
out at about 18%.
But conversely, cd rates weresolid, beginning at 12%
guaranteed in the early 1970s,and I think CD rates peaked out
(04:08):
in the late 1970s 1980 maybe atabout 18%.
So they were in keeping withinflation and it was a great
inflation buster for youngpeople that were just pouring
money into CDs and leaving itthere.
But the 70s was just a big,freaking recession.
I mean, everybody was hurt bythat and for some reason that's
(04:33):
not mentioned in the same breathas the crash of 08, which they
call the Great Recession and theGreat Depression of the 30s.
The 70s seems to have beenforgotten.
Chris (04:42):
Yeah, well, it kind of snuck up on people.
There was no like triggeringevent, event, massive triggering
event.
We had a couple of things oilembargoes, a couple other things
in there but we didn't havelike this dramatic monday
morning everybody woke up andthere was no carnage.
Dennis (04:54):
You know which we did in the in black thursday back in
1929 and we also did an 08 whenthe markets crashed absolutely
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaking of the crash of 08,that was do you remember the
subprime lending issue?
That was the biggest catalyst.
Yeah, and like a house of cardsor you know, like the domino
(05:16):
effect, once the subprimelending reached its critical
point, the tipping point youcan't reverse that critical
point, the tipping point, youcan't reverse that and it
impacted virtually everycomponent of financial USA
because people couldn't paytheir mortgages.
Chris (05:33):
In 08, we start getting little companies popping up,
taking advantage of the factthat people needed an extra
income.
They might've lost their job,they're not making as much
anymore, they're cutting back,and things like Airbnb and Uber
appeared in 2008 and 2009 tocreate sort of this side income.
If you would have invested inthose little tiny companies in
08, today you would be doingokay.
So there's again.
(05:54):
There's sort of thatopportunity that was there
there's always opportunities andjust got to kind of look around
for it.
But those guys that saw thatthat's what they ended up doing.
They started Airbnb and Uber asa way to make money on the side
.
It's really the start of thegig economy, which today is huge
.
Dennis (06:09):
One of the things that happened to me my roofing
company, which was just a largeand booming and growing concern
from 01 to 07, just took itright on the chin.
I went three or four crews and20 guys down to a spec.
I just I tightened up my beltand we went back to a five, six
(06:29):
person company with one crew,you know, and just made sure
that we didn't fail as a company, which we didn't, yeah, so
that's a good segue.
Chris (06:36):
Why don't we start talking what we get into a
little bit about?
The topic of this episode ishow do you session proof your
small business.
You know, in the intro wetalked a little bit about.
You know, stop worrying aboutthe forecast.
You know these things happen,especially your sessions, every
six to 10 years, I think onaverage, you never know right,
you never know.
So let's just keep your guttersclean and kind of use the
gutter monkey analogy there.
But how do we do that?
Dennis (07:05):
How do I keep my gutters clean if I own a small?
These storms?
You know, we had a great yearlast year in our businesses here
and we turned the corner andhad a phenomenal January, but
February was terrible.
But February is also thecoldest February in 10 years and
we work outdoors.
March was rainy, rainy, rainyand the first half to April was
just pouring rain and it justfelt like we couldn't get out of
the starting blocks.
April was just pouring rain andit just felt like we couldn't
(07:27):
get out of the starting blocks.
And so we came into April.
You know, mid-april the rainfinally eased up and business is
starting to get a little bitbetter.
But I was seeing some reallysignificant telltale signs.
So I made a couple of strategicmoves within my own company
back around April 1st, madeanother strategic move about
April 15th and yesterday I satdown with some of my key people
(07:50):
and I said we're in a recession,maybe it's not going to last
and I know we're going toweather the storm, but we're
going to make some changes.
And I sat down with three orfour of my key people yesterday
and we made changes inscheduling.
We redesigned our teams that goout into the field and I said
this is how we're going to do it.
And Everybody that was in onthe meeting said that sounds
(08:12):
very good, that's veryreasonable.
So the first I think the firststep in doing anything when it
comes to a recession is torecognize that you're in one.
I fought it, I acted like weweren't, I made moves like we
weren't.
We made changes back inFebruary and March and just
(08:34):
nothing was getting traction.
And the weather got good andthings got a little better, but
not the way they should be, andI said okay, it's time to act
accordingly.
We're going to make somechanges, outline them with my
partner in the morning, and thenwe had a couple of our key
people come in and we've madesome changes that we've begun
implementation and by nextMonday, four or five days from
(08:56):
now, they'll be fullyimplemented.
So one of the things that I dorecall before the 08 crash was
my financial planner asked mejust in a random meeting we were
having how many of yourcustomers are using financing to
do their job?
Customers are using financingto do their job.
(09:19):
So my primary job was we were aroofing company and the average
roof back in 2007 was $8,000.
And in previous years,financing was rarely, if ever,
an issue.
So I made an extra column in myledger because we used to do
about a hundred roofs a year.
So we would lay our a hundredcontracts a year, so we would
check off the in the ledgercolumn that said using financing
(09:43):
.
What I found was I began this inabout oh five and by oh seven,
I had this talk with myfinancial planner and I said,
yeah, 82% of my people are using.
This wasn't my, I do.
I also had a new constructioncompany that did new
constructions, additions andrenovations.
I was a separate entity but theroofing alone 82% were using
(10:06):
financing.
And what I also noticed was afew of my customers had me back
two and three times and eachtime I would have to fill out
the appropriate form so thatthey could fill out their data
for the bank for a home equityloan.
So I knew who was usingfinancing and I realized a lot
of people are going back to thatwell, two and three times, and
(10:28):
that's not renewable, that's nota sustainable model.
So I kind of had a feeling thatwe were coming into a bit of a
recession.
So, starting in about 05, 06,if I had somebody quit, I
wouldn't replace them.
Chris (10:44):
Yeah.
Dennis (10:44):
In 03, 04,.
If someone quit, I'd hire twopeople one to replace them and
one to grow.
Chris (10:50):
Because you kept accurate financial records and you
started that new column tofigure out who's financing who's
not.
You were able to kind of seethat I mean, if you don't do
those sort of things in yourbusiness, sometimes you might
miss it, sure, you might be lateto the game.
It could really cost you.
So that's kind of one of theprobably one of the items you
kind of want to make sure you'vegot under control, you know,
keeping your good financialrecords, being able to tell year
(11:11):
to year what your changes are,what's happening to your
business.
Don't bury your head in thesand and hope this one is just
going to pass by, or maybe I caneat my way through it, maybe
come to grips with it sooner andhopefully your financial
records help you do that.
Dennis (11:28):
And actually you're exactly right, because that's
what I used.
This year.
We basically have three revenuestreams coming into our
companies and I looked at thetwo key ones and one of them was
way down and I said this is nolonger a short-term thing.
We're talking about 10 weeks ina row of this particular
revenue stream is way belowaverage.
Chris (11:52):
You could look back in time and tell that this is
something different than we'vehad bad years before, bad
winters before, exactly.
Dennis (11:56):
And we can go back and compare to those years time and
tell that this is somethingdifferent than we've had bad
years before, bad winters before, right exactly.
And we can go back and compareto those years and the
comparisons didn't look good forFebruary, march, april of 2025.
So over these past six weeks,I've been making some of these
changes and none of them areearth shattering.
They're just changes within theorganization that none of our
customers and nobody on theoutside is going to see them,
(12:18):
but we're tightening our belt onthe inside, we're proactively
acting as though, at the veryleast, we are going to be in
some form of a short-termrecession.
And, as you say, it is myfinancial records that tells me
the story and that's why Irecommend always keep good
financial records and reviewthem regularly so that you know
(12:41):
what they mean, and they will goa long way to helping you
recognize the signs of a boomeconomy coming or a potential
recession, or at least adownturn in the economy, maybe
even make it a little easier foryou to get ahead of your
competition.
Chris (12:54):
Yeah Right, you'll be able to, you know, be ahead of
them, you know, outmaneuver them.
Dennis (13:06):
Well, I do remember during post COVID times it was
hard to get product.
It was very hard to getmaterial, and at the time my
wife used to call your order inon Thursday and they deliver it
Monday morning at eight o'clock,like clockwork.
Year after year, week afterweek, year after year.
That was it.
And when COVID came along, youcouldn't get things as quickly,
and then the prices startedskyrocketing.
There were trucker strikes.
The states and the federalgovernment were paying our
(13:30):
potential employees to stay homeand sit on their hands, so it
was hard to hire new people forgrowth and it was hard for our
suppliers to hire people, and atthe time Barbara was making
contacts with two, three, fourother suppliers, as well as the
manufacturing people out inPittsburgh who produce aluminum,
(13:50):
which is what we use a lot of.
So I was gaining informationfrom warehouse managers in
Albany, new York, and Perth,amboy, new Jersey, and
Pittsburgh, pennsylvania, andthey were struggling with
employment.
The younger guys weren't comingback into this field and so
their production was down.
Thus prices were skyrocketing,and so Babs came up.
(14:13):
We actually had to design aninventory system.
We didn't have one at the time,but we created one, and during
this time a lot of mycompetitors were going under.
Several of my competitors hereon Cape Cod, people that I know
and I know pretty well one ofthem.
He was primarily a gutter guybut he said I'm just going back
to general carpentry, I can'teven get aluminum.
(14:34):
Now.
Another one of my competitors,but a friendly competitor.
They started referring gutterwork to me and I called the
manager.
He's a guy I've known.
I knew his grandfather, I knewhis dad, I've known this family
for quite some time and Ithanked him for throwing the
work our way.
He goes yeah, we're not goingback into gutters anymore.
We can't even get this stuffand from what I'm hearing, you
(14:56):
guys are able to keep pace withthis, so we're sending
everything to you.
That was one of those benefitsof our company from COVID.
Is that it really?
It caused two or three of mycompetitors to go out of
business and when we finally didrecover, we had a bigger,
broader inventory system.
That almost made us bulletproofand that's what we have today.
(15:19):
I know that Andy ordered anextra oh gosh, an extra 10 rolls
at 5,000 pounds of coilaluminum a month ago in the
event that tariffs forced theprices up.
So aluminum doesn't go bad.
So he decided to drop an extrayou know many, many thousands of
dollars into aluminum.
At three bucks a pound threeand a half, he probably dropped
(15:42):
an extra 15 to 18 grand intoaluminum in the event that there
was an issue with that.
So these are just some of thelittle things that we did
in-house yeah.
Chris (15:52):
I find it interesting, especially that you're kind of
investing in efficiency.
It's a great time to installsomething like an inventory
system or maybe a CRM orsomething in your business that
actually will help you manageyour money better or manage your
costs better or your margins,improve your margins, do all
these little things.
It's a good opportunityactually to go ahead and do
something like that so it paysoff, and then when you come out
(16:14):
of it now you have these systemsin place and it takes off on
you.
Dennis (16:18):
It's every time there's a bump in the economy, good or
bad, it creates opportunities.
Chris (16:24):
And I think Rockefeller said.
He said I always tried to turnevery disaster into an
opportunity and he lives throughsome pretty big disasters and
came out looking pretty good onthe other end of it.
Dennis (16:32):
So oh yeah.
So as far as recession-proofingyour business, I think there's
certain components that havesustained me in my 40-plus years
of being self-employed.
Number one build up workingcapital Cash on hand in the
company account.
Build up working capital duringgood times.
Figure out what your monthlyexpenses are.
(16:52):
Multiply it by three, you know,and keep that in your checking
account and do the same thingyou know.
So if that's if your monthlyexpenses are 20 grand, keep 60
grand in your checking account.
You know.
Keep another 60 grand, you know, three months of expenses in
your next account.
Down your savings or your moneymarket account.
(17:12):
If you're a larger company, aswe are, yeah, we want to keep
significantly more.
We don't want to sweat payroll.
We don't want to fall victim toa short-term but very
significant price increase.
So, number one build up yourworking capital during the good
times.
Keep your debt low or eliminatedebt altogether.
(17:32):
It's huge If you don't have anydebt on your company.
You know your trucks.
I know we've all taken out debtat some time in our lives and
business owners most of us havetaken out debt early on in our
business life.
But I strongly encourage all myclients and all my franchisees
to keep the debt as low aspossible and try to proactively,
(17:55):
aggressively go aftereliminating that debt as soon as
you can.
Chris (17:59):
Yeah, yeah, we touch on this all the time.
It's this opportunity lost, ohgosh If you get this debt and
things come along, you might seeit perfectly clear.
I know exactly how I'm going todeal with this.
Look at this great opportunityhere.
Then you go to your checkbookor your savings or whatever and
you look at it and say I can'ttake advantage of it.
There's nothing worse than that.
It's like losing twice.
You actually recognized it andcould have taken advantage of it
, and now you're going to missit.
Dennis (18:20):
Sure, it's like the surfer that doesn't catch the
wave.
Yeah Right, ten surfers outthere and only three of them
catch the wave.
The other seven you can't catchup to it.
Once it started to crest,you've missed that opportunity.
That is the critical point.
You've got to paddle back outand wait for the next one.
Recognize what components ofyour revenue stream will be most
(18:44):
vulnerable, or could be mostvulnerable, to a recession, and
do that before the recessiongets here.
Primarily, we have two or threerevenue streams, and one of
them is almost bulletproof andthe other two.
It appears that I think one ofthem is recession-proof and one
has the capacity to besignificantly impacted by a
recession.
(19:04):
Recognize that ahead of time,act accordingly, build in
safeguards for that has thecapacity to be significantly
impacted by a recession.
Chris (19:10):
Recognize that ahead of time, act accordingly, build in
safeguards for that and sort of.
The flip side of that too ismaybe if you're looking at part
of your business and it's a bigchunk of your business, it might
be impacted by a recession.
Maybe you should diversify alittle bit too, maybe find other
ways of maybe lessening yourrisk there, I guess, for that
downturn.
Dennis (19:24):
I guess Sure, Just in recent years, there's one year
it had happened and I said allright, we're going to take out
an additional chunk of $1,500 amonth additional marketing to
combat, and it worked.
There was another year where weset up an internal follow-up
program and Charlie decided tobuild it and run it, and it
works really well and it stillworks to this day.
(19:47):
So that was one that got usthrough, I don't know, three
years ago.
Last year we had a littlesomething or other and I think
we added an extra band ofafternoon drive radio
advertising.
That worked.
So a couple of the things I'vedone recently is I've selected a
very different form ofadvertising than I've ever used
(20:09):
before, but I think it's goingto hit our target market.
So, yes, be proactive.
If you look at all these littlebumps in the road, we had a
crash in 96, a stock marketcrash, then we had Y2K, then we
had 9-11.
Then we had the crash of 08.
Then we have COVID, then wehave post-COVID supply chain
issues.
There's always something.
(20:31):
Now Y2K fizzled out.
It was nothing more than aflash in the pan.
9-11 was real.
That was devastating, andeverybody in this country in
some way was impacted onSeptember 11th 2001.
Same thing with COVID.
Everybody in this country wasimpacted in some way, and so I
(20:51):
still contend that, economicallyspeaking.
When good things happen, that'sgood.
Everybody's happy.
But when things occur that arenot so good, there's almost
always a silver lining.
There's almost alwaysopportunities to be had,
opportunities that can be takenadvantage of, and sometimes
there's even an opportunity thatnever existed before, let's say
(21:13):
, like a Lyft or an Uber or someof these other new innovative
ideas that came of age during orbecause of difficult times.
Chris (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, this company, trader Joe's.
You ever heard of Trader Joe's?
Dennis (21:26):
Yeah.
Chris (21:27):
They started out as like almost a 7-Eleven knockoff.
They were called Pronto Marketsand they got into competing
with 7-Eleven.
And he was actually a prettysmart guy.
He actually went out and he sawthat Americans were getting
educated.
They were looking for differentsort of foods.
They were flying.
International Jet travel in the60s was taking off into the 70s
(21:50):
.
Everyone was flying around theworld.
People wanted more differentfoods and different tastes and
stuff like that, and he saw thiswas happening.
But he also saw that inflationwas creeping up and the 70s was
starting to get a little tough.
Prices were going up in thesupermarkets, the quality was
going down, so at any rate.
So he noticed all this, so hepivoted no-transcript changes.
Dennis (22:37):
Adding extra advertising .
Cutting back here?
Okay.
Be proactive aboutdecision-making before the
recession occurs or after yourecognize it.
Just be proactive.
I mean if it means layoffs andyou got to do layoffs, then you
got to do it.
If it means cutting back onstuff, cutting back on inventory
(22:57):
and going on an as-needed basis, whatever, make decisions, be
proactive.
Don't cut back on youradvertising.
Be proactive about thosedecisions.
Chris (23:05):
Yeah, don't just hope it's going to all work out.
Be proactive.
Don't cut back on youradvertising.
Be proactive about thosedecisions.
Yeah, don't just hope it'sgoing to all work out.
Dennis (23:10):
If I just bury my head in the sand here, it's just all
going to work out.
Yeah, admit that.
This is a recession.
Don't lie to yourself, don'tlie to your coworkers, don't lie
to your team.
If it's coming, if you feel it,then it's probably coming.
Make those decisions.
Chris (23:21):
I know this is always a hot button for you too is this
idea of discounting?
Okay, now I'm going to discount.
That's how I'm going to get myway through this recession.
I'm going to discount my prices.
I'm going to get into pricewars with people.
It's the only way to survive.
How do you feel about that?
Not a big fan of it.
Dennis (23:36):
There's a lot of ways in my industry we can cut costs,
but I don't want to use aninferior product.
We only use the heaviest gaugealuminum available.
We actually special order ourhangers, our gutter hangers.
You can't get them at a normalsupply house, so we order them
in pallet loads twice a year.
I would never go with aninferior hanger.
(23:58):
These just it's a betterproduct and I can't really
explain it in great detail.
It's just a better product andI'd never go, I'd never get
cheap on that.
So yeah, I mean I'm not big ongetting in price wars,
especially during recessionswhen we've got inflation and
maybe there's some truth tothese tariffs and it's going to
(24:19):
cause some price increases,let's say, in aluminum.
I don't want to be cutting myprices when aluminum prices are
going up.
I don't want to be cutting myprices and telling my labor
force that we're all taking acut in pay.
Chris (24:32):
I don't want to do that Part of that too kind of goes to
the idea of keeping yourcustomer service top notch
during the recessions as well.
So you're taking care.
You're still taking care ofyour customers.
You're not just going to offerthem a cheap price, but you're
going to make sure the productis really good.
Dennis (24:47):
Yeah.
So you know, to kind of wrapthat up, I'm not a big fan of
cutting prices because generallyduring recessions, your costs
increase.
You know you have to pay morefor labor and you're paying more
for product and service,especially if the recession has
impacted the price of yourproduct, that the price has got
(25:08):
more expensive.
So, yeah, not a big fan ofprice cutting and price wars,
but you know just my ownpersonal thought on that.
But make your necessaryadjustments.
Cut out the fat, the legitimatefat that you can do.
If you and your staff goes outto dinner, you know, every
Wednesday night, you know youmight have to cut that out.
Oh no, it's the only thing Ireally do.
I love Wednesday night dinners.
(25:29):
Don't get hung up on a growthyear, a record-breaking year.
Don't get hung up on that.
During a recession or adepression, what you want to do
is just stay solvent, stayprofitable.
You don't have to grow, justweather the storm, patch the
holes in the boat.
Patch the holes in the boat,keep the boat in the middle of
the river and weather the stormand then just recognize that
(25:51):
when the recession is over, it'stime to start moving in that
direction again, kind of likethe Warren Buffett thing.
Chris (25:56):
You know be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy
when others are fearful, Sureyou know.
Dennis (26:01):
I think that right now, in April of 2025, I think, we're
in a little bit of a recession,so I'm acting accordingly.
A couple of little things thathave occurred to me.
This is some of these littlethings.
Cape Cod rentals are down rightnow.
I've been hearing this from AAA, like reports from AAA, also
(26:21):
reports that I get from the CapeCod Chamber of Commerce Rentals
are down compared to previousyears down significantly.
Another thing that I've heardis that and I heard this on a
bloomberg money report on one ofthe radio stations that I
listened to um you listen tobloomberg.
Chris (26:36):
I love bloomberg.
Yeah, I used to work forbloomberg, of course, but that's
right I forgot about that.
I did.
Dennis (26:40):
I got hooked on their radio shows they have very good
radio shows yeah, they, yeah,they have some good stuff.
Chris (26:44):
They have some very good podcasts too.
Dennis (26:46):
Here's one of the things I heard within the last day, 14
days is that and they gave thereport on the upcoming vacation
season Fewer people are planningto take vacations and those who
are taking vacations and Idon't remember the exact number,
but significantly more of thesepeople are going to finance
(27:09):
their vacation via their creditcard and not pay it off and have
to pay it off after the fact,which means that's going to
create a little more personaldebt when they get back from
their vacation, means they'regoing to have a little bit less
disposable or discretionaryincome.
There's a trickle-down effect.
The report I heard fromBloomberg didn't sound all that
(27:32):
wonderful and it's a personalrecession.
I mean, the economy could bebooming, but if the company you
work for closes, you're in apersonal recession.
You've got to go find a job andmaybe you're not going to
replace that income.
That happened a lot back in thecrash of 08 and the following
months and years after.
That is, people that weremaking, you know, 130, 40,
(27:55):
$50,000 a year were losing theirjobs and and and having to go
get a job at $65,000 a year, andtheir entire lifestyle, their
mortgage payment, their carpayments were all based on
$140,000, $50,000 income and nowyou're at half that or less
than half that.
That's a personal recession, sowe can all be impacted many
(28:19):
ways, and I sort of threw thatlittle thing at the end, because
I have this talk with peopleall the time.
Things are not going well.
Well, you know, you're in apersonal recession here, yeah,
and you've got to actaccordingly.
Chris (28:30):
And many of the things that we've been talking about
keeping good records, you know,staying debt free, all these
different things you know we'retalking about small businesses
completely apply to yourpersonal.
Yeah, they do.
It's an interesting take, oh,chris.
Interesting take, oh chris,what do you got another else?
Another fun afternoon here atyeah, let's talk.
I'm looking forward.
I'll tell you, looking out overthe next couple of years.
(28:52):
I'm looking forward to ourpodcast where we say, okay, this
is what you do in boom times.
You know we're hitting thisboom time now.
Dennis (28:58):
Things are going we've had a boom economy for many
years now, right?
Chris (29:01):
oh, yeah, yeah, haven't we?
Yeah, but we weren't on thefront end of it when we were
doing the podcast.
Dennis (29:04):
It'd be nice to be on the front end of it on a podcast
.
Chris (29:07):
Hey, everybody, look out for this.
We're going to boom right now,but that's coming.
Dennis (29:11):
I want to throw one little final thought out there.
I feel so fortunate to havebeen in business and my company
was a mid-level and we weregrowing very, very nicely in
2019, 2020.
I feel so fortunate and soblessed to have been a part of
the economy during COVID,because it was such an
(29:32):
incredible learning experienceto go through all of the stuff
that we all went through thecompliance, the downturn, the
upswings, the material shortagesand it was just an amazing
thing and somehow we didn't gointo recession during that.
Chris (29:49):
Very short.
They say it was the shortestrecession of all times,
basically Roughly really inrecession, really for only like
two months, but we had a kind ofa residual effect, so we
probably had two quarters inthere.
So it was the smallestrecession of all time.
But the great thing, likeyou're saying right now, is
there were so many lessonscompacted into that small space
that if you were involved in abusiness, like you said, during
(30:10):
that time period, you couldlearn all sorts of things in a
very short period of time youweren't in the 70s where it took
15 years to finally figurethings out.
You had two years.
It was an intense learningexperience, but you come through
it.
On the other side, you're inpretty good shape if you kept
your business.
Absolutely A lot of tragedyduring that time, not to just
strictly on the business side,if you think about it on the
(30:32):
business side Correct, itcertainly was true.
Dennis (30:34):
Correct.
I mean there's no biggertragedy than 9-11, but 9-11
changed our country forever.
It changed our economy, whichstarted that boom that began in
01 and ended in 08.
I mean, just as one of thesemany, many things that impacts
our economy and we don't knowhow it's going to impact the
(30:54):
economy until it does, andchance favors the prepared
Always be prepared.
Chris (30:59):
Yeah, how many times have we said that on these podcasts?
Yeah.
Dennis (31:02):
Yeah, all the time.
Chris (31:03):
All right, that was a great episode.
Thank you much.
Very interesting.
Dennis (31:06):
And no monkeys were harmed in the making of this
podcast there you go.
Chris (31:10):
All right, we'll talk to you next time.
Bye, thank you for tuning in toMonkey Business Radio.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please make sure to subscribe,
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(31:31):
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(31:52):
For details, visit us atAmericanGutterMonkeyscom.
Every business faces storms, whether it's a
full-blown recession, risingcosts or just a tough stretch
that hits your bottom line.
In this episode, building aRecession-Proof Business, we
talk about how to recognize thesigns early, why your financial
records are one of the mostpowerful tools, and how to make
smart, proactive moves beforethings get worse.
Dennis shares what he's doingright now inside his own
(00:23):
business, from adjusting teamstructure to reworking inventory
strategy.
Plus, we look back at pastdownturns, from the forgotten
recessions of the 70s to the2008 crash, and lessons we
pulled from COVID.
Whether you're running a crew,leading a franchise or just
trying to keep your businesssteady, this one's packed with
real world advice.
We've got a great show for you,so grab a cup of coffee, sit
(00:44):
back, relax and welcome toMonkey Business Radio.
All right, so let's dive in.
Hello, dennis, how are we doingtoday?
Good, chris, how are you today?
Good, good, we've got a greatepisode for you today.
To start today's discussion,let's get grounded in what we're
actually talking about, dennis.
How do you define a recessionbased on what you've seen over
(01:06):
the years?
Dennis (01:07):
There's a lot of varying accounts and definitions for a
recession and to start, whenyou're in a recession, you know
it, the powers that be know it.
A recession is a significantand, generally speaking, a
widespread downturn in oureconomic activity that, by
definition, has to last at leasttwo quarters.
(01:29):
Six months of negative grossdomestic product, negative GDP.
Basically, what that means iswe have two consecutive down
quarters in a row.
It's symptomatically, it's asignificant decline in economic
activity.
Numerically, financiallyspeaking.
A recession by definition hasto last two quarters and it
(01:55):
generally lasts a whole lotlonger than that.
But also the economy may notrecover to its former peaks for
many, many years.
Even though by definition,numerically, mathematically,
financially, we may not be in arecession, by definition, it
sure feels like it.
Chris (02:11):
Yeah, there's lingering effects.
Employment takes a while torecover things like that.
Dennis (02:14):
Yeah, unemployment can remain high.
Chris (02:18):
Bond prices adjust slowly over time.
Dennis (02:20):
Yeah, and I remember the crash of 08.
We'll talk about that in alittle bit, but by definition,
the crash and the recession of08 really lasted about a year
and a half, but the falloutlasted a whole lot longer Years
and years and years to recoverfrom that.
Chris, we grew up in the 70sand I always say that the 70s
(02:42):
the greatest recession thatnobody talks about.
I spent an hour or so yesterdaybopping around doing a little
bit of research and seeing whatpeople think and say about the
70s and one of the things I cameup with is they identify three
or four minor recessionsthroughout the 70s.
No-transcript.
(03:33):
If the gas was even available,terms like stagflation,
hyperinflation, were a part ofthe 70s.
What was the interest rates?
Chris (03:42):
on a mortgage back then.
Dennis (03:43):
My first house.
I bought end of 81 into 82.
We closed and I paid primewhich was 18 plus three.
I paid 21% interest on my firstmortgage but I think it peaked
out at about 18%.
But conversely, cd rates weresolid, beginning at 12%
guaranteed in the early 1970s,and I think CD rates peaked out
(04:08):
in the late 1970s 1980 maybe atabout 18%.
So they were in keeping withinflation and it was a great
inflation buster for youngpeople that were just pouring
money into CDs and leaving itthere.
But the 70s was just a big,freaking recession.
I mean, everybody was hurt bythat and for some reason that's
(04:33):
not mentioned in the same breathas the crash of 08, which they
call the Great Recession and theGreat Depression of the 30s.
The 70s seems to have beenforgotten.
Chris (04:42):
Yeah, well, it kind of snuck up on people.
There was no like triggeringevent, event, massive triggering
event.
We had a couple of things oilembargoes, a couple other things
in there but we didn't havelike this dramatic monday
morning everybody woke up andthere was no carnage.
Dennis (04:54):
You know which we did in the in black thursday back in
1929 and we also did an 08 whenthe markets crashed absolutely
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaking of the crash of 08,that was do you remember the
subprime lending issue?
That was the biggest catalyst.
Yeah, and like a house of cardsor you know, like the domino
(05:16):
effect, once the subprimelending reached its critical
point, the tipping point youcan't reverse that critical
point, the tipping point, youcan't reverse that and it
impacted virtually everycomponent of financial USA
because people couldn't paytheir mortgages.
Chris (05:33):
In 08, we start getting little companies popping up,
taking advantage of the factthat people needed an extra
income.
They might've lost their job,they're not making as much
anymore, they're cutting back,and things like Airbnb and Uber
appeared in 2008 and 2009 tocreate sort of this side income.
If you would have invested inthose little tiny companies in
08, today you would be doingokay.
So there's again.
(05:54):
There's sort of thatopportunity that was there
there's always opportunities andjust got to kind of look around
for it.
But those guys that saw thatthat's what they ended up doing.
They started Airbnb and Uber asa way to make money on the side
.
It's really the start of thegig economy, which today is huge
.
Dennis (06:09):
One of the things that happened to me my roofing
company, which was just a largeand booming and growing concern
from 01 to 07, just took itright on the chin.
I went three or four crews and20 guys down to a spec.
I just I tightened up my beltand we went back to a five, six
(06:29):
person company with one crew,you know, and just made sure
that we didn't fail as a company, which we didn't, yeah, so
that's a good segue.
Chris (06:36):
Why don't we start talking what we get into a
little bit about?
The topic of this episode ishow do you session proof your
small business.
You know, in the intro wetalked a little bit about.
You know, stop worrying aboutthe forecast.
You know these things happen,especially your sessions, every
six to 10 years, I think onaverage, you never know right,
you never know.
So let's just keep your guttersclean and kind of use the
gutter monkey analogy there.
But how do we do that?
Dennis (07:05):
How do I keep my gutters clean if I own a small?
These storms?
You know, we had a great yearlast year in our businesses here
and we turned the corner andhad a phenomenal January, but
February was terrible.
But February is also thecoldest February in 10 years and
we work outdoors.
March was rainy, rainy, rainyand the first half to April was
just pouring rain and it justfelt like we couldn't get out of
the starting blocks.
April was just pouring rain andit just felt like we couldn't
(07:27):
get out of the starting blocks.
And so we came into April.
You know, mid-april the rainfinally eased up and business is
starting to get a little bitbetter.
But I was seeing some reallysignificant telltale signs.
So I made a couple of strategicmoves within my own company
back around April 1st, madeanother strategic move about
April 15th and yesterday I satdown with some of my key people
(07:50):
and I said we're in a recession,maybe it's not going to last
and I know we're going toweather the storm, but we're
going to make some changes.
And I sat down with three orfour of my key people yesterday
and we made changes inscheduling.
We redesigned our teams that goout into the field and I said
this is how we're going to do it.
And Everybody that was in onthe meeting said that sounds
(08:12):
very good, that's veryreasonable.
So the first I think the firststep in doing anything when it
comes to a recession is torecognize that you're in one.
I fought it, I acted like weweren't, I made moves like we
weren't.
We made changes back inFebruary and March and just
(08:34):
nothing was getting traction.
And the weather got good andthings got a little better, but
not the way they should be, andI said okay, it's time to act
accordingly.
We're going to make somechanges, outline them with my
partner in the morning, and thenwe had a couple of our key
people come in and we've madesome changes that we've begun
implementation and by nextMonday, four or five days from
(08:56):
now, they'll be fullyimplemented.
So one of the things that I dorecall before the 08 crash was
my financial planner asked mejust in a random meeting we were
having how many of yourcustomers are using financing to
do their job?
Customers are using financingto do their job.
(09:19):
So my primary job was we were aroofing company and the average
roof back in 2007 was $8,000.
And in previous years,financing was rarely, if ever,
an issue.
So I made an extra column in myledger because we used to do
about a hundred roofs a year.
So we would lay our a hundredcontracts a year, so we would
check off the in the ledgercolumn that said using financing
(09:43):
.
What I found was I began this inabout oh five and by oh seven,
I had this talk with myfinancial planner and I said,
yeah, 82% of my people are using.
This wasn't my, I do.
I also had a new constructioncompany that did new
constructions, additions andrenovations.
I was a separate entity but theroofing alone 82% were using
(10:06):
financing.
And what I also noticed was afew of my customers had me back
two and three times and eachtime I would have to fill out
the appropriate form so thatthey could fill out their data
for the bank for a home equityloan.
So I knew who was usingfinancing and I realized a lot
of people are going back to thatwell, two and three times, and
(10:28):
that's not renewable, that's nota sustainable model.
So I kind of had a feeling thatwe were coming into a bit of a
recession.
So, starting in about 05, 06,if I had somebody quit, I
wouldn't replace them.
Chris (10:44):
Yeah.
Dennis (10:44):
In 03, 04,.
If someone quit, I'd hire twopeople one to replace them and
one to grow.
Chris (10:50):
Because you kept accurate financial records and you
started that new column tofigure out who's financing who's
not.
You were able to kind of seethat I mean, if you don't do
those sort of things in yourbusiness, sometimes you might
miss it, sure, you might be lateto the game.
It could really cost you.
So that's kind of one of theprobably one of the items you
kind of want to make sure you'vegot under control, you know,
keeping your good financialrecords, being able to tell year
(11:11):
to year what your changes are,what's happening to your
business.
Don't bury your head in thesand and hope this one is just
going to pass by, or maybe I caneat my way through it, maybe
come to grips with it sooner andhopefully your financial
records help you do that.
Dennis (11:28):
And actually you're exactly right, because that's
what I used.
This year.
We basically have three revenuestreams coming into our
companies and I looked at thetwo key ones and one of them was
way down and I said this is nolonger a short-term thing.
We're talking about 10 weeks ina row of this particular
revenue stream is way belowaverage.
Chris (11:52):
You could look back in time and tell that this is
something different than we'vehad bad years before, bad
winters before, exactly.
Dennis (11:56):
And we can go back and compare to those years time and
tell that this is somethingdifferent than we've had bad
years before, bad winters before, right exactly.
And we can go back and compareto those years and the
comparisons didn't look good forFebruary, march, april of 2025.
So over these past six weeks,I've been making some of these
changes and none of them areearth shattering.
They're just changes within theorganization that none of our
customers and nobody on theoutside is going to see them,
(12:18):
but we're tightening our belt onthe inside, we're proactively
acting as though, at the veryleast, we are going to be in
some form of a short-termrecession.
And, as you say, it is myfinancial records that tells me
the story and that's why Irecommend always keep good
financial records and reviewthem regularly so that you know
(12:41):
what they mean, and they will goa long way to helping you
recognize the signs of a boomeconomy coming or a potential
recession, or at least adownturn in the economy, maybe
even make it a little easier foryou to get ahead of your
competition.
Chris (12:54):
Yeah Right, you'll be able to, you know, be ahead of
them, you know, outmaneuver them.
Dennis (13:06):
Well, I do remember during post COVID times it was
hard to get product.
It was very hard to getmaterial, and at the time my
wife used to call your order inon Thursday and they deliver it
Monday morning at eight o'clock,like clockwork.
Year after year, week afterweek, year after year.
That was it.
And when COVID came along, youcouldn't get things as quickly,
and then the prices startedskyrocketing.
There were trucker strikes.
The states and the federalgovernment were paying our
(13:30):
potential employees to stay homeand sit on their hands, so it
was hard to hire new people forgrowth and it was hard for our
suppliers to hire people, and atthe time Barbara was making
contacts with two, three, fourother suppliers, as well as the
manufacturing people out inPittsburgh who produce aluminum,
(13:50):
which is what we use a lot of.
So I was gaining informationfrom warehouse managers in
Albany, new York, and Perth,amboy, new Jersey, and
Pittsburgh, pennsylvania, andthey were struggling with
employment.
The younger guys weren't comingback into this field and so
their production was down.
Thus prices were skyrocketing,and so Babs came up.
(14:13):
We actually had to design aninventory system.
We didn't have one at the time,but we created one, and during
this time a lot of mycompetitors were going under.
Several of my competitors hereon Cape Cod, people that I know
and I know pretty well one ofthem.
He was primarily a gutter guybut he said I'm just going back
to general carpentry, I can'teven get aluminum.
(14:34):
Now.
Another one of my competitors,but a friendly competitor.
They started referring gutterwork to me and I called the
manager.
He's a guy I've known.
I knew his grandfather, I knewhis dad, I've known this family
for quite some time and Ithanked him for throwing the
work our way.
He goes yeah, we're not goingback into gutters anymore.
We can't even get this stuffand from what I'm hearing, you
(14:56):
guys are able to keep pace withthis, so we're sending
everything to you.
That was one of those benefitsof our company from COVID.
Is that it really?
It caused two or three of mycompetitors to go out of
business and when we finally didrecover, we had a bigger,
broader inventory system.
That almost made us bulletproofand that's what we have today.
(15:19):
I know that Andy ordered anextra oh gosh, an extra 10 rolls
at 5,000 pounds of coilaluminum a month ago in the
event that tariffs forced theprices up.
So aluminum doesn't go bad.
So he decided to drop an extrayou know many, many thousands of
dollars into aluminum.
At three bucks a pound threeand a half, he probably dropped
(15:42):
an extra 15 to 18 grand intoaluminum in the event that there
was an issue with that.
So these are just some of thelittle things that we did
in-house yeah.
Chris (15:52):
I find it interesting, especially that you're kind of
investing in efficiency.
It's a great time to installsomething like an inventory
system or maybe a CRM orsomething in your business that
actually will help you manageyour money better or manage your
costs better or your margins,improve your margins, do all
these little things.
It's a good opportunityactually to go ahead and do
something like that so it paysoff, and then when you come out
(16:14):
of it now you have these systemsin place and it takes off on
you.
Dennis (16:18):
It's every time there's a bump in the economy, good or
bad, it creates opportunities.
Chris (16:24):
And I think Rockefeller said.
He said I always tried to turnevery disaster into an
opportunity and he lives throughsome pretty big disasters and
came out looking pretty good onthe other end of it.
Dennis (16:32):
So oh yeah.
So as far as recession-proofingyour business, I think there's
certain components that havesustained me in my 40-plus years
of being self-employed.
Number one build up workingcapital Cash on hand in the
company account.
Build up working capital duringgood times.
Figure out what your monthlyexpenses are.
(16:52):
Multiply it by three, you know,and keep that in your checking
account and do the same thingyou know.
So if that's if your monthlyexpenses are 20 grand, keep 60
grand in your checking account.
You know.
Keep another 60 grand, you know, three months of expenses in
your next account.
Down your savings or your moneymarket account.
(17:12):
If you're a larger company, aswe are, yeah, we want to keep
significantly more.
We don't want to sweat payroll.
We don't want to fall victim toa short-term but very
significant price increase.
So, number one build up yourworking capital during the good
times.
Keep your debt low or eliminatedebt altogether.
(17:32):
It's huge If you don't have anydebt on your company.
You know your trucks.
I know we've all taken out debtat some time in our lives and
business owners most of us havetaken out debt early on in our
business life.
But I strongly encourage all myclients and all my franchisees
to keep the debt as low aspossible and try to proactively,
(17:55):
aggressively go aftereliminating that debt as soon as
you can.
Chris (17:59):
Yeah, yeah, we touch on this all the time.
It's this opportunity lost, ohgosh If you get this debt and
things come along, you might seeit perfectly clear.
I know exactly how I'm going todeal with this.
Look at this great opportunityhere.
Then you go to your checkbookor your savings or whatever and
you look at it and say I can'ttake advantage of it.
There's nothing worse than that.
It's like losing twice.
You actually recognized it andcould have taken advantage of it
, and now you're going to missit.
Dennis (18:20):
Sure, it's like the surfer that doesn't catch the
wave.
Yeah Right, ten surfers outthere and only three of them
catch the wave.
The other seven you can't catchup to it.
Once it started to crest,you've missed that opportunity.
That is the critical point.
You've got to paddle back outand wait for the next one.
Recognize what components ofyour revenue stream will be most
(18:44):
vulnerable, or could be mostvulnerable, to a recession, and
do that before the recessiongets here.
Primarily, we have two or threerevenue streams, and one of
them is almost bulletproof andthe other two.
It appears that I think one ofthem is recession-proof and one
has the capacity to besignificantly impacted by a
recession.
(19:04):
Recognize that ahead of time,act accordingly, build in
safeguards for that has thecapacity to be significantly
impacted by a recession.
Chris (19:10):
Recognize that ahead of time, act accordingly, build in
safeguards for that and sort of.
The flip side of that too ismaybe if you're looking at part
of your business and it's a bigchunk of your business, it might
be impacted by a recession.
Maybe you should diversify alittle bit too, maybe find other
ways of maybe lessening yourrisk there, I guess, for that
downturn.
Dennis (19:24):
I guess Sure, Just in recent years, there's one year
it had happened and I said allright, we're going to take out
an additional chunk of $1,500 amonth additional marketing to
combat, and it worked.
There was another year where weset up an internal follow-up
program and Charlie decided tobuild it and run it, and it
works really well and it stillworks to this day.
(19:47):
So that was one that got usthrough, I don't know, three
years ago.
Last year we had a littlesomething or other and I think
we added an extra band ofafternoon drive radio
advertising.
That worked.
So a couple of the things I'vedone recently is I've selected a
very different form ofadvertising than I've ever used
(20:09):
before, but I think it's goingto hit our target market.
So, yes, be proactive.
If you look at all these littlebumps in the road, we had a
crash in 96, a stock marketcrash, then we had Y2K, then we
had 9-11.
Then we had the crash of 08.
Then we have COVID, then wehave post-COVID supply chain
issues.
There's always something.
(20:31):
Now Y2K fizzled out.
It was nothing more than aflash in the pan.
9-11 was real.
That was devastating, andeverybody in this country in
some way was impacted onSeptember 11th 2001.
Same thing with COVID.
Everybody in this country wasimpacted in some way, and so I
(20:51):
still contend that, economicallyspeaking.
When good things happen, that'sgood.
Everybody's happy.
But when things occur that arenot so good, there's almost
always a silver lining.
There's almost alwaysopportunities to be had,
opportunities that can be takenadvantage of, and sometimes
there's even an opportunity thatnever existed before, let's say
(21:13):
, like a Lyft or an Uber or someof these other new innovative
ideas that came of age during orbecause of difficult times.
Chris (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, this company, trader Joe's.
You ever heard of Trader Joe's?
Dennis (21:26):
Yeah.
Chris (21:27):
They started out as like almost a 7-Eleven knockoff.
They were called Pronto Marketsand they got into competing
with 7-Eleven.
And he was actually a prettysmart guy.
He actually went out and he sawthat Americans were getting
educated.
They were looking for differentsort of foods.
They were flying.
International Jet travel in the60s was taking off into the 70s
(21:50):
.
Everyone was flying around theworld.
People wanted more differentfoods and different tastes and
stuff like that, and he saw thiswas happening.
But he also saw that inflationwas creeping up and the 70s was
starting to get a little tough.
Prices were going up in thesupermarkets, the quality was
going down, so at any rate.
So he noticed all this, so hepivoted no-transcript changes.
Dennis (22:37):
Adding extra advertising .
Cutting back here?
Okay.
Be proactive aboutdecision-making before the
recession occurs or after yourecognize it.
Just be proactive.
I mean if it means layoffs andyou got to do layoffs, then you
got to do it.
If it means cutting back onstuff, cutting back on inventory
(22:57):
and going on an as-needed basis, whatever, make decisions, be
proactive.
Don't cut back on youradvertising.
Be proactive about thosedecisions.
Chris (23:05):
Yeah, don't just hope it's going to all work out.
Be proactive.
Don't cut back on youradvertising.
Be proactive about thosedecisions.
Yeah, don't just hope it'sgoing to all work out.
Dennis (23:10):
If I just bury my head in the sand here, it's just all
going to work out.
Yeah, admit that.
This is a recession.
Don't lie to yourself, don'tlie to your coworkers, don't lie
to your team.
If it's coming, if you feel it,then it's probably coming.
Make those decisions.
Chris (23:21):
I know this is always a hot button for you too is this
idea of discounting?
Okay, now I'm going to discount.
That's how I'm going to get myway through this recession.
I'm going to discount my prices.
I'm going to get into pricewars with people.
It's the only way to survive.
How do you feel about that?
Not a big fan of it.
Dennis (23:36):
There's a lot of ways in my industry we can cut costs,
but I don't want to use aninferior product.
We only use the heaviest gaugealuminum available.
We actually special order ourhangers, our gutter hangers.
You can't get them at a normalsupply house, so we order them
in pallet loads twice a year.
I would never go with aninferior hanger.
(23:58):
These just it's a betterproduct and I can't really
explain it in great detail.
It's just a better product andI'd never go, I'd never get
cheap on that.
So yeah, I mean I'm not big ongetting in price wars,
especially during recessionswhen we've got inflation and
maybe there's some truth tothese tariffs and it's going to
(24:19):
cause some price increases,let's say, in aluminum.
I don't want to be cutting myprices when aluminum prices are
going up.
I don't want to be cutting myprices and telling my labor
force that we're all taking acut in pay.
Chris (24:32):
I don't want to do that Part of that too kind of goes to
the idea of keeping yourcustomer service top notch
during the recessions as well.
So you're taking care.
You're still taking care ofyour customers.
You're not just going to offerthem a cheap price, but you're
going to make sure the productis really good.
Dennis (24:47):
Yeah.
So you know, to kind of wrapthat up, I'm not a big fan of
cutting prices because generallyduring recessions, your costs
increase.
You know you have to pay morefor labor and you're paying more
for product and service,especially if the recession has
impacted the price of yourproduct, that the price has got
(25:08):
more expensive.
So, yeah, not a big fan ofprice cutting and price wars,
but you know just my ownpersonal thought on that.
But make your necessaryadjustments.
Cut out the fat, the legitimatefat that you can do.
If you and your staff goes outto dinner, you know, every
Wednesday night, you know youmight have to cut that out.
Oh no, it's the only thing Ireally do.
I love Wednesday night dinners.
(25:29):
Don't get hung up on a growthyear, a record-breaking year.
Don't get hung up on that.
During a recession or adepression, what you want to do
is just stay solvent, stayprofitable.
You don't have to grow, justweather the storm, patch the
holes in the boat.
Patch the holes in the boat,keep the boat in the middle of
the river and weather the stormand then just recognize that
(25:51):
when the recession is over, it'stime to start moving in that
direction again, kind of likethe Warren Buffett thing.
Chris (25:56):
You know be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy
when others are fearful, Sureyou know.
Dennis (26:01):
I think that right now, in April of 2025, I think, we're
in a little bit of a recession,so I'm acting accordingly.
A couple of little things thathave occurred to me.
This is some of these littlethings.
Cape Cod rentals are down rightnow.
I've been hearing this from AAA, like reports from AAA, also
(26:21):
reports that I get from the CapeCod Chamber of Commerce Rentals
are down compared to previousyears down significantly.
Another thing that I've heardis that and I heard this on a
bloomberg money report on one ofthe radio stations that I
listened to um you listen tobloomberg.
Chris (26:36):
I love bloomberg.
Yeah, I used to work forbloomberg, of course, but that's
right I forgot about that.
I did.
Dennis (26:40):
I got hooked on their radio shows they have very good
radio shows yeah, they, yeah,they have some good stuff.
Chris (26:44):
They have some very good podcasts too.
Dennis (26:46):
Here's one of the things I heard within the last day, 14
days is that and they gave thereport on the upcoming vacation
season Fewer people are planningto take vacations and those who
are taking vacations and Idon't remember the exact number,
but significantly more of thesepeople are going to finance
(27:09):
their vacation via their creditcard and not pay it off and have
to pay it off after the fact,which means that's going to
create a little more personaldebt when they get back from
their vacation, means they'regoing to have a little bit less
disposable or discretionaryincome.
There's a trickle-down effect.
The report I heard fromBloomberg didn't sound all that
(27:32):
wonderful and it's a personalrecession.
I mean, the economy could bebooming, but if the company you
work for closes, you're in apersonal recession.
You've got to go find a job andmaybe you're not going to
replace that income.
That happened a lot back in thecrash of 08 and the following
months and years after.
That is, people that weremaking, you know, 130, 40,
(27:55):
$50,000 a year were losing theirjobs and and and having to go
get a job at $65,000 a year, andtheir entire lifestyle, their
mortgage payment, their carpayments were all based on
$140,000, $50,000 income and nowyou're at half that or less
than half that.
That's a personal recession, sowe can all be impacted many
(28:19):
ways, and I sort of threw thatlittle thing at the end, because
I have this talk with peopleall the time.
Things are not going well.
Well, you know, you're in apersonal recession here, yeah,
and you've got to actaccordingly.
Chris (28:30):
And many of the things that we've been talking about
keeping good records, you know,staying debt free, all these
different things you know we'retalking about small businesses
completely apply to yourpersonal.
Yeah, they do.
It's an interesting take, oh,chris.
Interesting take, oh chris,what do you got another else?
Another fun afternoon here atyeah, let's talk.
I'm looking forward.
I'll tell you, looking out overthe next couple of years.
(28:52):
I'm looking forward to ourpodcast where we say, okay, this
is what you do in boom times.
You know we're hitting thisboom time now.
Dennis (28:58):
Things are going we've had a boom economy for many
years now, right?
Chris (29:01):
oh, yeah, yeah, haven't we?
Yeah, but we weren't on thefront end of it when we were
doing the podcast.
Dennis (29:04):
It'd be nice to be on the front end of it on a podcast
.
Chris (29:07):
Hey, everybody, look out for this.
We're going to boom right now,but that's coming.
Dennis (29:11):
I want to throw one little final thought out there.
I feel so fortunate to havebeen in business and my company
was a mid-level and we weregrowing very, very nicely in
2019, 2020.
I feel so fortunate and soblessed to have been a part of
the economy during COVID,because it was such an
(29:32):
incredible learning experienceto go through all of the stuff
that we all went through thecompliance, the downturn, the
upswings, the material shortagesand it was just an amazing
thing and somehow we didn't gointo recession during that.
Chris (29:49):
Very short.
They say it was the shortestrecession of all times,
basically Roughly really inrecession, really for only like
two months, but we had a kind ofa residual effect, so we
probably had two quarters inthere.
So it was the smallestrecession of all time.
But the great thing, likeyou're saying right now, is
there were so many lessonscompacted into that small space
that if you were involved in abusiness, like you said, during
(30:10):
that time period, you couldlearn all sorts of things in a
very short period of time youweren't in the 70s where it took
15 years to finally figurethings out.
You had two years.
It was an intense learningexperience, but you come through
it.
On the other side, you're inpretty good shape if you kept
your business.
Absolutely A lot of tragedyduring that time, not to just
strictly on the business side,if you think about it on the
(30:32):
business side Correct, itcertainly was true.
Dennis (30:34):
Correct.
I mean there's no biggertragedy than 9-11, but 9-11
changed our country forever.
It changed our economy, whichstarted that boom that began in
01 and ended in 08.
I mean, just as one of thesemany, many things that impacts
our economy and we don't knowhow it's going to impact the
(30:54):
economy until it does, andchance favors the prepared
Always be prepared.
Chris (30:59):
Yeah, how many times have we said that on these podcasts?
Yeah.
Dennis (31:02):
Yeah, all the time.
Chris (31:03):
All right, that was a great episode.
Thank you much.
Very interesting.
Dennis (31:06):
And no monkeys were harmed in the making of this
podcast there you go.
Chris (31:10):
All right, we'll talk to you next time.
Bye, thank you for tuning in toMonkey Business Radio.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please make sure to subscribe,
like and follow us wherever youget your podcasts.
It really helps us reach moreaspiring entrepreneurs like you,
and if you've got a question ortopic you'd like us to cover,
(31:31):
leave a comment or reach out tous on social media.
We'd love to hear your thoughtsand keep the conversation going
.
Don't forget to leave us afive-star review if you found
the episode valuable, and makesure to share it with anyone who
might benefit from our tips andstories.
We'll see you next time.
This podcast is produced byAmerican Gutter Monkeys LLC.
Build real wealth throughbusiness ownership.
(31:52):
For details, visit us atAmericanGutterMonkeyscom.
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