June 18, 2025 • 48 mins
The Tahltan Nation of northwestern British Columbia is redefining Indigenous participation in the mining industry, with women leading operations and creating economic prosperity through ownership stakes in major resource projects.
• Tahltan territory spans 97,000 square kilometers (size of Portugal) and contains the mineral-rich "Golden Triangle"
• The nation has deep historical connections to mining, trading obsidian across North America before European contact
• Women from this matrilineal society dominate leadership positions and excel in operating heavy equipment
• Economic agreements like Impact Benefit Agreements ensure communities receive fair benefits from resource development
• Chad Day developed "internal reconciliation" processes that create certainty through community-wide ratification votes
• The Tahltan have become part-owners of $3 billion in hydroelectric projects that power their territory
• Cultural preservation remains a priority alongside responsible development
• Future goals include creating Tahltan-controlled institutions for wildlife management and justice
If you want to learn more about the Tahltan Nation's approach to resource development, visit thadu.ca or follow Chad Norman Day on social media.
The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.
Reach out to us with thoughts, questions, or ideas at info@powerstruggle.ca
Linkedin
Instagram
Facebook
Twitter
🎧 For audio versions of our podcast visit powerstruggle.ca and listen on the go in your favourite podcast app!
Video available on Power Struggle’s YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stewart Muir (00:00):
A lot of people, if they think about mining at
all, probably think of it assomething that men do Brawny men
going down mining shafts ordriving trucks, but that's not
what we see.
It's women from the TaltanNation.
How did this come?
Chad Day (00:11):
about.
It may come as a surprise to alot of people, but I think for a
lot of Taltan it's no surpriseto see women doing all the jobs
that men can do on the mine site.
And when it comes to the heavyduty equipment jobs, I've been
told that the women usually doit better and far safer than the
men.
The tautan nation is amatrilineal society.
(00:32):
Every year that I was president, 75 or more of the board of
directors was women.
My whole life I've known thewomen to be very successful in
all areas of the Taltan economy,including mining.
Stewart Muir (00:48):
Yeah, it breaks so many stereotypes and it's a
fact that mining as an industryin Canada is the best paid.
So these aren't just jobs.
These are jobs that will paythe mortgage and send the kids
to college.
It's amazing.
Chad Norman Day is my guesttoday at Power Struggle.
(01:13):
I'm Stuart Muir.
Chad is the former four-termpresident of the Taltan Central
Government.
He's the youngest and longestserving president in that
nation's history.
He's also got degrees in nativestudies and political science
and law.
He was instrumental innegotiating historic agreements,
including the first underBritish Columbia's new act on
(01:35):
the Declaration on the Rights ofIndigenous Peoples, which came
into force in 2019.
He's also a passionate advocatefor health and wellness.
He's raised half a milliondollars for health and wellness.
He's raised half a milliondollars for sports and wellness
programs through the HealthyActive Taltans Initiative.
Chad.
Welcome to Power Struggle.
Chad Day (01:52):
Thank you for having me.
Stewart Muir (01:54):
I'm really excited .
We've been talking about thisepisode for a long time.
I'd like to start, though, foranyone who isn't aware of what
the Taltan people are, wherethey are.
What is the traditionalterritory of the Taltan people?
Chad Day (02:06):
So the Taltan nation is up in northwest British
Columbia.
The northernmost tip actuallygoes into the Yukon.
It's over 97,000 squarekilometers, so it's about the
size of Portugal, whichencompasses about 11% of British
Columbia, and we have about4,000 members.
(02:27):
About 20 to 25% live in theterritory, with the remaining
living outside the territory,mostly in British Columbia.
But we have some people in theUnited States and other parts of
the world and Taltan peoplehave certainly continued to be
very nomadic in the modern times.
Stewart Muir (02:50):
What makes the Taltan special?
Chad Day (02:52):
I would say in pre-contact times we were known
to be mining people.
We had obsidian at MountAdsaiza and we utilized that to
have all kinds of advantageswith weaponry and making tools
and we traded that obsidian.
They've actually found someobsidian as far south as Florida
(03:15):
, meaning that multipleindigenous groups obviously
traded it to get there.
I assume.
In the modern day, I would say,we're well known for being in
the mining industry.
We're avid hunters, fishermen.
The guide outfitting industryactually started in Telegraph
Creek where my father was bornand raised many generations ago
(03:42):
and I think Taltans have alwaysbeen known to be a very strong,
passionate, hardworking,independent people.
Stewart Muir (03:50):
There's over 200 First Nations in British
Columbia.
Is there an origin story of theTaltan people?
Chad Day (03:55):
I've heard a couple variations.
I've heard about Siskiyatso,which means big raven, and
obviously a lot of indigenouspeople have a story about the
raven and bringing the light andlife and things like that.
I've also heard stories aboutsisters coming together at this
(04:17):
beach, at the confluence of thetaltan and the stikine River,
near a rock called Thaddu, whichwe'll talk about later, and
that those sisters kind ofdecided that they would start up
a new nation and I guess theymust have found some men at some
point, because Taltan peoplebecame several thousand and,
(04:40):
like I said, today we're stillat 4,000.
Stewart Muir (04:43):
One of the reasons why I was so keen to invite you
to Power Struggle and I'm soglad you're here finally today
is that the TALTAN have reallyemerged, in a sense, with a
special significance in terms ofa lot of strategy that ties to
the future of energy, includingenergy metals and minerals that
are in existence in the groundin that area, but also there's
(05:07):
some fascinating energy issueson transmission corridors, the
use of electricity in mining,but also energy corridors going
through the traditionalterritory or adjacent to it,
where there's all kinds ofalmost globally significant
geopolitical issues.
I think the first thing that weshould talk about is why it is
(05:33):
that Taltan are so especiallysignificant, at least in my view
, do you agree?
Chad Day (05:37):
Yeah, very important to the future of the country and
to the world, given what'sgoing on with minerals and the
geopolitical challenges aroundthe world.
So anybody in the mining spacecertainly has heard of the
Golden Triangle and should havepeople that they turn to to
(05:58):
better understand the TaltanNation if they plan on going
through the territory, let aloneextracting any minerals or
other resources from theterritory.
Stewart Muir (06:09):
Well, that's right .
I mean, if you Google GoldenTriangle, you'll find that there
it is drawn on the maps ofmining promoters and geologists
and mining companies over theyears and it denotes this region
where there's an incrediblenumber of ore deposits that are
accessible to mining, and thisis really what has brought so
much opportunity, and maybeother issues, to your community.
Chad Day (06:33):
Yeah, it's definitely a blessing and a curse at the
same time.
I think one of the challengesis always trying to figure out,
as a Taltan nation, how wecontrol the pace.
But at the same time, themining industry has dominated
our economy up there for severalgenerations and it's provided a
(06:56):
very good living and livelihood.
And as Indigenous law haschanged in Canada and British
Columbia and we've been able tocapitalize on that, the benefits
and the independence hasobviously grown with every
generation, which is a goodthing.
Stewart Muir (07:16):
There's a great example of mining in Teltan
territory, that's Redcrisp Mine.
What's that all about?
Chad Day (07:22):
Redcrisp Mine is a copper slash gold mine that's
really close to the community ofIskut and every year anywhere
from 150 to 200 Taltan areworking up at the mine site.
So it's obviously a hugeeconomic driver and supports a
lot of families throughout theTaltan Nation, within the
(07:42):
territory and wherever Taltanpeople live.
Stewart Muir (07:46):
I'm going to pull a little clip from a video
that's on the Taltan centralgovernment's website, the women
who work at Red Cris Mine, whichI just love that video because
it shows something that I thinkwill surprise a lot of people.
Chad Day (08:10):
I just enjoy doing this stuff.
This stuff is pretty cool to do.
It's big equipment.
It's big equipment, big chunkof iron.
It's fun Moving mountains,making mountains.
I like it.
Stewart Muir (08:27):
I've worked in the territory before and it's just
nice to be back closer to home,closer to family.
It's a community, right, thisis a little community and to see
family.
A lot of people, if they thinkabout mining at all, probably
think of it as something thatmen do Brawny men going down
mining shafts or driving trucks?
(08:48):
That's not what we see in thatvideo.
It's women from the TaltanNation.
How did this come about?
Chad Day (08:56):
The Taltan Nation is a matrilineal society.
Every year that I was president, 75% or more of the board of
directors was women and I grewup with very strong Taltan women
in my life.
So my whole life I've known thewomen to be very successful in
(09:21):
all areas of the Taltan economy,including mining.
My mother is non-Indigenous andmy father is the Taltan, but
they met mining and she and mysisters have been in all aspects
of mining.
So it may come as a surprise toa lot of people, but I think
(09:42):
for a lot of Taltan people it'sno surprise to see women doing
all the jobs that men can do onthe mine site.
And when it comes to the heavyduty equipment jobs, I've been
told that the the women usuallydo it better and far safer than
the men.
So shout out to all the Taltanwomen out there yeah, it breaks
(10:03):
so many stereotypes.
Stewart Muir (10:04):
Just love that.
And it's a fact that mining asan industry in Canada is the
best paid, so these aren't justjobs.
These are actually jobs thatwill pay the mortgage and send
the kids to college.
It's amazing.
Chad Day (10:19):
Absolutely.
It's an industry that peoplecan definitely make a
comfortable living doing.
I was blessed to have twoparents that were in that
industry.
My older sisters were in thatindustry and all you need to do
is take a trip into the Taltancommunities and you'll see
(10:39):
people are doing quite well.
There's a lot of big trucks, alot of side-by-side snowmobiles
because, as I said earlier,taltan people really love to get
out on the land and are verycultural.
But it's a lot easier to use asnowmobile and a side-by-side to
do your hunting than it is toget through those conditions and
(11:02):
moccasins nowadays.
Stewart Muir (11:04):
Right.
The technology is there, use it.
You know I'm fascinated becauseat Power Struggle we talk about
the energy trilemma.
You know humanity needs moreenergy all the time and in the
case of Teltan, there you are,in the middle of the golden
triangle, the critical mineralsthat are needed for energy
transition, the energy metals,copper being most obvious one,
(11:27):
especially in the case of Taltan.
It's not trivial what you'redoing.
We need these metals andminerals.
Chad Day (11:32):
Yeah, taltan are very advanced in their understanding
of the mining industry.
As I said earlier, I think thebig challenges for the nation is
to figure out the pace that weare comfortable with and then
also the location and theimpacts.
We are known to be verypro-mining in a lot of circles,
(11:56):
but there's obviously areas thatwe've said that mining isn't
going to take place, like Klapan.
There's some areas aroundShesley that are very culturally
sensitive.
I don't think any of thecommunities want to have mining
projects near their communities.
Obviously, redcrisp is quiteclose to Iskut, but that process
(12:20):
started a long, long time ago.
Process started a long, longtime ago and that's really, I
think, the dilemma that Taltanpeople are going to have to face
for years to come is what isthe pace and where are we
comfortable having theseprojects?
But, as I said earlier, we dohave 11% of British Columbia, so
(12:41):
there are a lot of areas whereTaltTAN can support mining
projects and other industrialprojects and as long as we come
together with the province andindustry, I think we can find a
good balance and do it the rightway.
Stewart Muir (12:56):
In the headlines not long ago jade mining.
What's the background to that?
Chad Day (13:10):
that that industry is managed like the Wild West.
There's no benefits that comeback to the Taltan people when a
million dollar jade boulder istaken out of the wilderness.
And we had tried to find abetter balance with the province
.
They continually ignored us andat the time the board of
directors allowed me to takethings into my own hands and go
(13:31):
out there.
And you know we made a videoabout it, obviously, and
continued putting the pressureon, and I think things now are
in a place where that industryis no longer going to exist.
But that was never my intention.
My intention was to make surethat things could be overhauled
(13:53):
so that we as Taltan peoplecould work alongside the jade
industry and the province toperhaps have the industry
continue, but to continue in afashion that was much more
responsible for the environmentand continued in a fashion so
that Taltan people and the jadeindustry and the province could
(14:15):
all benefit together, whereasright now the province doesn't
benefit, the Taltan people don'tbenefit and it's just not an
industry that made sense formost parties.
Stewart Muir (14:28):
So for things you've wanted to welcome.
One of the issues has beenproviding the energy needed, and
there's been transmission lineinvestments that have really
brought the modern era to life.
Would you agree?
Chad Day (14:40):
Yes, that was before my time, but we definitely did a
big deal when the transmissionline came through and it
obviously changes themathematics and makes it far
more feasible for a lot moreindustrial projects to take
place in Taltan territory.
Stewart Muir (14:57):
So that transmission line, the ISCOT
line, has brought renewableenergy from hydropower to really
remote places, Some of the mostspectacular landscapes that a
person could go to, I think,anywhere in North America.
And I wonder is there a priceto pay for any disruptions?
(15:17):
How has it gone over Like it'screated opportunities, it's
created new minds.
Is this welcomed by Taltanpeople in general?
Chad Day (15:27):
Well, as I said, there's 4,000 Taltan people and
an elder Jerry Asp once said ina speech that if you put three
Taltans in a room together,they'll come out with about five
to ten different opinions.
So this is why it's soimportant to have what I call
internal reconciliation, whichis figuring out processes to
(15:51):
create decision-making certaintyamongst their own people.
And the Northwest HydroelectricProjects and the Red Chris Mine
and the Impact BenefitAgreement on Seabridge and other
mining projects, we had a veryrobust internal engagement and
(16:16):
consultation process with ourpeople that ultimately ended in
ratification votes from ourpeople.
So the first ratification votethat I went through as president
was for IBA that I negotiatedwith our team for the Red Cris
mine and that ultimatelyresulted in an 87% support
(16:42):
ratification vote.
Stewart Muir (16:43):
And IBA is an impact benefit agreement,
correct and that flows benefitsto the nation.
Chad Day (16:49):
From the company itself, and then that normally
goes hand in hand with some formof a revenue sharing agreement
with the province on the taxrevenue that is generated from
the project in some ways Notalways, unfortunately, but you
do get a piece of the taxrevenue.
Stewart Muir (17:07):
So the benefits created by these primary
investments, like a transmissionline, have in fact translated
into socially desired benefitsfor Telten.
Chad Day (17:17):
Correct.
And with the NorthwestHydroelectric Project
specifically, we were in thenews for buying into that
project and breaking some kindof record, because it was over
$100 million and we are partowners of these clean energy
projects in our own territoryand those projects are, I think,
(17:39):
worth around $3 billion andthat's what feeds the Northwest
transmission line.
When we negotiate theseagreements in the right way and
obviously make sure that we takecare of the environment and our
culture in the process, we canuh benefit, hopefully, on every
(18:00):
large piece of infrastructureand project that comes through
the territory chad.
Stewart Muir (18:05):
You travel a lot.
You get around the world.
How would you compare thetelten, say, Indigenous peoples
in other countries you've beento?
Chad Day (18:12):
Without getting to know other Indigenous groups
nearly as well.
Obviously, I would say thatCanada, british Columbia
specifically, is definitelyleading the way in a lot of
aspects of making sure thatIndigenous people are
meaningfully involved andobviously part owners of some of
(18:33):
these projects, and they haveIBAs and they have revenue
sharing agreements with theprovince and you don't see that
in a lot of other areas of theworld.
I specifically think aboutplaces like South America, where
I visited several countries andmy wife is from the Philippines
(18:54):
and I've seen some of theindigenous groups over there.
The arrangements with some ofthe indigenous people and even
just communities is nothing likeit is in British Columbia.
So we still have a lot of workto do in British Columbia, of
course, but when you compare ourjurisdiction to a lot of others
, we are certainly doing muchbetter.
Stewart Muir (19:17):
And is there a way to share these learnings
internationally, so that part ofwhat we do is we provide the
energy and energy products theworld needs?
We're also part of bringingthis positive change elsewhere.
Chad Day (19:30):
Yeah, we can certainly try to share those best
practices.
Obviously there's a lot ofmining companies that are
completing these projects indifferent jurisdictions, so they
know what the standards are inplaces like Canada and
Scandinavia compared to othercountries like South America and
the Philippines.
(19:50):
And I guess it comes down togovernments and industry and
community members just comingtogether and figuring it out.
But it took us a long time toget to where we are today and
I'm not going to pretend to knowthe complexities of those other
countries and those otherindigenous cultures.
Stewart Muir (20:09):
You referenced.
Hey, if you've got modernconveniences, use them to make
life more convenient, moreenjoyable.
And you're quite a backcountryspecialist yourself.
I follow you on Facebook and Iam always amazed at some of the
spectacular places you get to,and I know you're passing this
along to your children in somany interesting ways all the
(20:32):
time.
But are you afraid that we'reat a kind of tipping point in
culture and society?
With the mobile devices, wehave the ubiquitous connectivity
where these traditions couldjust get lost in the shuffle.
Chad Day (20:48):
Absolutely, and it's already happening.
So in Taltan territory we'rehaving problems with the king
salmon populations.
There's caribou herds in someareas that are almost wiped out
and the other ones have been onthe decline.
Very passionate about predatormanagement.
(21:16):
Every clan knew where the wolfdens were, grizzly bears were
managed, and today it's verydifficult.
It's basically impossible tomanage the natural resources
like we used to, because wedon't live on the land like we
used to.
There used to be many trailsand village sites and clans
living in different areas, andnow the Taltan Nation lives in
(21:38):
three communities, and this isobviously with other Indigenous
people as well.
So modern technology is nice,but I would say that the
province, the federal governmentand Indigenous people in some
instances need to takeresponsibility on themselves as
well.
We need to make sure that weutilize those new tools and that
(22:02):
new technology to stillprioritize cultural resources,
natural resources like we usedto resources, natural resources
like we used to, and I think areally good example is the
relationship that we have withwildlife and fisheries
populations, because that's notin a good place in British
Columbia and it's not in a goodplace in Taltan territory either
(22:24):
.
Stewart Muir (22:25):
You've talked about how three quarters or more
of Taltan people don't live inthe territory.
They live elsewhere, mostly inNorth America, in Canada.
Do you think there's somethingthat would attract more people
back to the homeland?
Chad Day (22:38):
Yeah, we need to invest a lot more in housing.
Part of that is on BritishColumbia, part of it is on
Taltan people as well.
We have a Taltan Heritage Trustthat has over $100 million in
it right now, and when I started10 years ago it was at about $6
(22:59):
million and we still are notmaking those strategic
investments.
But at the same time, one ofthe issues that we've always had
is that the province is able toextract a lot of minerals and a
lot of wealth from ourterritory and we've never seen a
(23:19):
fair return on that wealth interms of the highways, the um,
the safety infrastructure.
As an example, our largestcommunity of Iskut does not have
a RCMP detachment, so ifthere's ever an emergency there,
they need to phone the RCMP inDease Lake and you'll be lucky
(23:41):
if the RCMP gets there within anhour.
Stewart Muir (23:45):
How far apart?
Chad Day (23:46):
It's about 80 kilometers, so, again, you'll be
lucky if they're there withinan hour.
There's not a single passinglane on the highway throughout
Taltan territory and, like Isaid, this is an area the size
of Portugal.
Stewart Muir (24:00):
So that's generating incredible wealth.
Chad Day (24:03):
Yeah, exactly, and we could go on and on about the
lack of investment being madeinto the territory, and I guess
this is where you would talkabout economic reconciliation
and, you know, really taking adeep dive into the numbers.
So I think the Taltan peopleand the province still need to
(24:25):
sit down and have a seriousconversation about what is the
Taltan nation's fair share,given all of the development
that has happened in the pastand that continues to happen
today.
Stewart Muir (24:38):
Who are your neighbors among the First
Nations of the Northwest ofBritish Columbia?
Chad Day (24:43):
Nisga'a to the south.
We've always had a goodrelationship with them the Kca
and the Tlingit to the north,and then there's some treaty
eight nations, I guess to the tothe northeast.
But when I was presidentdefinitely had a good
relationship with the Nisga'a,casca, tlingit.
Stewart Muir (25:06):
And that's on both sides of the US-Canada border
in some cases.
Chad Day (25:10):
The Tlingit are on the Alaska side as well, for sure.
Stewart Muir (25:16):
I have some Nishka friends who always have some
good jokes.
What's Taltan humor like?
Chad Day (25:23):
Yeah, I think they're very funny people in the
community.
When people talk about Taltans,there's such a variety,
depending if you're talkingabout the Taltans that live in
Terrace, which is the largestpopulation of Taltans living in
one area, versus the Taltans inIskut, versus Dees Lake, versus
(25:46):
Telegraph Creek.
So I grew up in Telegraph Creekand I consider Telegraph Creek
to be my only home, so when youask a question like that, I
think of the funniest people inin Telegraph Creek.
But obviously when you look atFacebook and stuff like that,
there's there's funny peopleeverywhere and our elders are
(26:09):
very funny.
I think when you look ateverything some of them had to
endure with the residentialschools and things like that, I
think indigenous humor reallyhelped get them through, and any
time that I played bingo withsome of the elders or things
like that, it's definitely ariot getting those older female
(26:34):
elders together.
I would say they're a lot morefunny and less serious than the
men, right?
Stewart Muir (26:40):
Sounds like a fun time.
Would you consider yourself thefirst generation to emerge into
the leadership roles thatyou've had, that isn't directly
at a personal level, under theshadow of residential schools,
from your own experience of life?
Chad Day (26:55):
That's a good question .
Under the shadows, my fatherwas a residential school
survivor and I think there'sbeen a lot written about the
intergenerational aspects and inmany cases people were
(27:18):
mistreated dearly in thecommunity by other residential
school survivors.
So I would have a hard timeanswering that question.
I think it still has asignificant impact on everybody.
But what I will say about myown experience is that I'm
(27:39):
extremely proud that my fatherworked very hard to become a
hardworking, proud Taltan manand I never witnessed any of the
violence or the atrocities thathe experienced in residential
(28:01):
school.
And maybe I'm lucky that I wasborn, you know, 15 years after
my older sister.
I don't know what he was likein his younger days, but I know
a lot of our elders, includingmy dad, worked very hard to
become the best version ofthemselves after having very
negative experiences atresidential school.
Stewart Muir (28:22):
So you came out of university, you had a law
degree, but you chose not to goto the bar because you had
another plan for yourself.
Is that right?
Chad Day (28:30):
because you had another plan for yourself.
Is that right?
I would say that many TALTANpeople had another plan for me
and I just kind of caved intothat, given what was going on
with my life at the time.
I had five children while goingthrough law school, which was a
lot more challenging than lawschool itself for me, and when
(28:54):
we separated, it put me in adifficult position where I
wanted to be in the North withmy children and everything just
kind of lined up, and there wasa lot of pressure from the
Taltan people for me to returnto the nation and become either
(29:16):
the chief of the Taltan band orthe president of what was then
the Taltan Central Council.
So I did a lot of research andultimately decided that I would
run to be the president, andthat was only two months after
graduating from law school, so Inever had the opportunity to go
(29:38):
and do the course andapprentice under other lawyers,
and then I ended up remainingthe president for 10 years until
I decided to leave it behind.
Stewart Muir (29:50):
Well, everyone who knows you knows how
accomplished you've been in thatrole.
Do you ever wonder if you hadtaken a different fork into a
law career in the city, whatlife would be like?
Chad Day (30:04):
I think about it often , but I feel like I made the
right decision because mydecision was based on my
children and my community, whichtakes precedent over money and
career in the city.
I would have loved to haveremained in Victoria.
I love Victoria and I'm sureI'll spend a lot more time in
(30:28):
Victoria in my latter years,more time in Victoria in my
latter years.
But following the separationand the former spouse and the
children moving back to northernBC there, there was no other
option.
I had to move back to northernBC to be with them and, given
the lack of articlingopportunities and lawyers that I
(30:49):
would feel comfortable workingwith, it was a pretty easy
decision and I'm happy with thedecision because myself and the
Taltan Central Government teamthat I built and oversaw for 10
years we were able to do manyamazing things and empower so
(31:10):
many Taltan people.
So I think I did the rightthing.
Stewart Muir (31:15):
No doubt about it, victoria being the seat of
government of the province ofBritish Columbia.
I know we have viewers in theUnited States who are curious
about what's going on in Canadain different ways.
If you had to describe thedifference between, say, how
tribes engage in the economywhether it's the lower 48 or
(31:35):
Alaska, compared to how thingsare in Canada, how would you
explain what's going on with aphenomenon like UNDRIP and the
economic success that TELTAN hadcompared to how tribes do
generally in the US?
Chad Day (31:50):
I don't know the legal landscape well enough in the US
to fully answer that question,but I know that it really
differs from jurisdiction tojurisdiction in the US.
I know that in somejurisdictions in the US it's
very easy for indigenous peopleto open up casinos and they have
(32:15):
a lot more flexibility withtheir economic development than
we have in Canada in a lot ofrespects.
But again, it depends on whichstate that you're talking about
and I think the relationshipbetween American states and the
indigenous people is verydifferent than Canada, given how
(32:40):
the United States became acountry compared to a
Commonwealth country in Canada.
So it's a good question to asksome political science students,
but I would need to workclosely with more tribes in the
US to give you a better answerthan that.
Stewart Muir (32:59):
When you look at the border region between the US
and Canada in the Northwest,which is to say where Alaska and
British Columbia and the YukonTerritory meet, there's a lot
going on there.
That's probably out of sight tomost people but it looks like
an intriguing place.
You know we're here to talkabout my thing.
I'm interested in energy andthe struggle for power in
(33:22):
people's lives.
You know, to solve that energytrilemma.
And when I look at this place onthe map you're looking at
future critical minerals minesthat will bring forth whether
it's the copper, I think youwill find germanium and you'll
find other rare earths that arein a special category of what
(33:43):
can be mined and it's going tobecome more and more important
to humanity that we can sourcethose.
But this border area has been asource of a lot of friction.
You know there's some potentialmines probably some of them in
Taltan territory that are kindof locked into the kind of
uncertainties and legal issuesthat can exist around borders.
(34:08):
Do you have any thoughts abouthow, over the long term, some of
the issues will be resolved sothat the potential of the Taltan
and the Tlingit people inAlaska will be?
You know part of that.
Chad Day (34:21):
Well, I think the Taltan nation needs to stand
firm that opportunities in ourhomeland, we will make the
decisions around thoseopportunities.
Ten years being president, Ican't remember anybody from the
Tlingits in Alaska or any otherAlaska tribe, coming to Taltan
(34:43):
and asking our opinions aboutopportunities that they had.
We've had a lot of issues withfish because of Alaskans and
they never came to us to speakto us about those things either.
So I think the Taltan Nationneeds to do what our ancestors
have always done, which is to befirm and strong with what is
(35:07):
ours in our territory.
They should be working closelywith the province to take a firm
stance with Alaska and at theend of the day, we can pursue
responsible economic developmentand I have no problem having a
conversation with tribes inAlaska and making sure they are
(35:33):
properly informed about a lot ofthe activities that are
happening in Taltan territoryand in the province.
But at the end of the day, itis our jurisdiction as Taltan
people and British Columbians.
So that's my stance on it.
Stewart Muir (35:49):
Chad, you had an incredible first act in your
career.
Leaving law school drawn to thehomeland, it was imparted to
you that you had a duty and youstepped up to that and you
served in the roles you'verecently stepped back from.
What's the second act for ChadNorman Day.
Chad Day (36:06):
Well, the next chapter .
I started a company.
It's called Thaddeu ConsultingCorporation Thaddeoca how's that
spelled?
thaduca.
But at this point my goal is toutilize my expertise, my
knowledge, to help otherindigenous people mining
(36:30):
companies, companies.
I would consider myself anexpert with indigenous relations
and with really bridging thegap and building those
relationships and meaningfulagreements and relationships
between indigenous people andindustrial companies, but also
(36:51):
helping indigenous people figureout that internal
reconciliation, which I think issomething we don't talk about
enough because it would beimpolite and other groups don't
want to talk about it, but we,as Indigenous people, need to
make sure that we have internalprocesses that allow us to make
(37:13):
decisions together.
There's a lot of talk aboutconsent, but what does that mean
?
Does consent mean the chief andcouncil and the five to 12
people on chief and council needto consent?
Does it mean everybody in thenation needs to consent?
And if it's everybody in thenation, who is included in that
(37:35):
definition?
Is it everybody with Taltanancestry?
Is it everybody that'sregistered to the bands within
that nation?
These are all intricate thingsthat are very, very important,
that need to be worked out.
Even the term nation so earlier, when you had mentioned that
(37:57):
there were over 200 FirstNations in British Columbia.
Even hearing that, I'm thinkingin my head what does First
Nation mean to you.
There's nations, there's FirstNations, there's groups that
want to provide their consent asa band and then there's other
(38:17):
groups, like the Taltan, who saywe have multiple bands here and
we're going to includeeverybody in these decisions.
So it's that internalreconciliation, working out
those internal processes amongstyourselves, because a lot of
Indigenous people are strugglingto find certainty, the same way
(38:42):
that government and industryare struggling to find certainty
with Indigenous people.
So that's where I think I couldreally be useful to a lot of
different groups is helping thembuild those policies, build
those processes, build thecommunication, because the
Taltan success story of havingthese agreements and the
(39:07):
economic development and some ofthe most robust communication
processes you'll ever see, therewere several arms to that that
took a lot of work and that werebuilt on, you know, generations
of success and mistakes andlearning.
So if I can bring that to othergroups and help out government,
(39:29):
industry, indigenous people mygoal is just to make sure that
we bridge the gap with all thisuncertainty so that everybody
can prosper Because at the endof the day, the people in
government and their kids,indigenous people, and their
kids, industry and their kids,they're all going to the same
school, they're all playing onthe same teams, they all want to
(39:49):
utilize the same hospitals whenthere's an emergency, and I
think this uncertainty holdingus back is really
counterproductive and I thinkit's hitting a breaking point in
this province that could end uptaking us even further
backwards if we're not careful.
Stewart Muir (40:08):
What is the uncertainty?
Chad Day (40:10):
The uncertainty is what are the processes that we
are going to follow to makedecisions and uphold those
decisions?
As an example, when you talkabout consent for something as
complicating as a pipeline,about consent for something as
complicating as a pipeline,industry needs to figure out who
(40:31):
are we talking to in order toget consent and what is the
process to get to consent, andhow do we do this and uphold
this?
When there's multiple groups,it's a huge issue, and then even
leaders themselves are having ahard time internally building
(40:52):
processes so that they can makedecisions and uphold decisions.
Worth the time and theinvestment to have a really,
really robust process where wewould go out to 12 to 16
(41:12):
different communities in theterritory, out of the territory,
online, get everybody's input,make the agreement available to
everybody, the draft agreementand then eventually get to a
place where you have aratification vote.
And for me, the reason why I'mproud of that process and why I
(41:32):
felt that it was the rightprocess is because if something
like the Red Chris impactbenefit agreement is supported
by 87% of the people and thenyou have 1% or 2% or 3% of the
people blockading to shutsomething down or whatever the
case may be, and then thecompany or the province or the
(41:57):
authorities come back to thegovernment and say you know,
will you support us?
It gives me the ability to saythis isn't personal against the
people that are blockading, butwhat they're doing is
disrespecting the will of thenation.
They're not disrespecting me asthe leader, they're not
disrespecting our government.
They're disrespecting a decisionthat was made by the people who
(42:21):
collectively hold the title andrights and, in my opinion,
should collectively be makingdecisions that have permanent
impacts on those collectivetitle and rights and, in my
opinion, should collectively bemaking decisions that have
permanent impacts on thosecollective title and rights.
So there's a lot to unpack thereand every group is different,
but I do think the uncertaintyis around how do we make
(42:46):
decisions and how do we upholdthose decisions?
And until we find that theuncertainty remains and
unfortunately a lot of theseprojects are going to remain on
a hamster wheel and that's notgood for anybody we need to
figure out where can we dobusiness, where can we not do
business.
And in the areas where we cando business because the
(43:07):
Indigenous group is saying thiscould be open for business we
need to have streamlinedprocesses that can stand in the
face of scrutiny and so thatIndigenous people have the
ability to uphold some of theirown decisions, because that's
obviously become an issue allover British Columbia, obviously
(43:31):
become an issue all overBritish Columbia, and I don't
blame a lot of industrialcompanies for doing business
elsewhere.
We have a lot of work to dothere.
So hopefully I can help out,because I think Taltan have done
a pretty good job of it.
Stewart Muir (43:43):
Linear infrastructure that goes across
a long area and it encountersdifferent people along the way.
It's a little different than apoint of industry activity like
a mine, which is pretty much inone spot.
Do you think it's just moredifficult to do anything linear,
whether it's a transmissionline, Because there's more
(44:04):
transmission lines that aregoing to go to the British
Columbia coast in order to meetthe demand for green electricity
?
Right, and they might be, we'rehearing just as opposed as, say
, a gas pipeline is to the coast.
Chad Day (44:18):
Yeah, it's definitely more challenging and with every
nation they have varying degreesof challenges within their own
governance system.
So with the Taltan nation youhave a central government who
takes the lead on title andrights processes and that
process is robust enough thatthe two bands and all Taltan
(44:44):
people can buy into that andbelieve that it has credibility
and integrity and, as a result,that process has certainty.
But in other groups, if youhave a central government
structure and they're trying todo what the TCG has done, and
(45:04):
then multiple chief and councilstructures and they don't get
along with each other, and thenthere's hereditary chiefs and
sometimes they're not gettingalong with each other and
arguing about who is a realchief and who's not and who's
lost their title, I I just can'timagine working in an
environment like that as uh, asindustry.
(45:24):
And that's where you know youneed to be able to, to figure
out the internal reconciliationfirst and then hopefully you can
work with government andindustry.
But other times government andindustry can help, can help fund
that, that internal work.
But it's it's complicating, andsomething people need to
(45:47):
understand as well is thatIndigenous people, our
population grows four and a halftimes faster than others and
since the COVID pandemic ourlife expectancy has been lowered
more than any other group.
So the changing dynamics in ourcommunities it changes much
(46:13):
faster and more rapidly.
We're having children whenwe're younger we have more
children.
The residential school traumaand intergenerational impacts
mean we're losing more people.
It's a lot to take on.
So when you talk about consentand providing certainty and
(46:36):
working with Indigenous groups,when there's so many layers, it
takes a lot of work and it's notsomething that you can throw an
expert on for three or sixmonths.
You're going to have to workwith a lot of these nations for
years just to help build thegovernance, build the processes
and then hopefully build arelationship to get some of
(46:57):
these projects over the finishline.
Stewart Muir (47:00):
It feels like a mini course that we're getting
from your experience today.
I'd just like to close on onequestion.
Thinking ahead half a century,what do you think success would
be for the TALTAN?
Chad Day (47:13):
I think the goal is to reflect a true nation's
government, to have our owninstitutions, to have people
that have proper training andintegrity and checks and
balances overseeing thoseinstitutions.
Things like having our ownwildlife department who makes
(47:38):
decisions based off of localTaltan and Western science
science.
Having things like our ownjustice system so that we can
deal with conflicts in anefficient way and so that we can
get a fair share of the valueof all the minerals and all the
(48:00):
resources that come out of ourterritory, because if we start
getting a fair share, we'll havemore than enough to revitalize
our languages, to do all theland use planning and work that
we need to, which would, at theend of the day, provide more
certainty for everybody andprovide a lot of prosperity for
(48:22):
Taltan people for generations tocome.
So I think that's the goal andhopefully that's what I see when
I'm an elder living inTelegraph Creek, like my dad is
today.
Stewart Muir (48:37):
Chad Day.
Former president of the Taltancentral government.
Thanks for being here today,chad.
Chad Day (48:42):
Thanks again.
A lot of people, if they think about mining at
all, probably think of it assomething that men do Brawny men
going down mining shafts ordriving trucks, but that's not
what we see.
It's women from the TaltanNation.
How did this come?
Chad Day (00:11):
about.
It may come as a surprise to alot of people, but I think for a
lot of Taltan it's no surpriseto see women doing all the jobs
that men can do on the mine site.
And when it comes to the heavyduty equipment jobs, I've been
told that the women usually doit better and far safer than the
men.
The tautan nation is amatrilineal society.
(00:32):
Every year that I was president, 75 or more of the board of
directors was women.
My whole life I've known thewomen to be very successful in
all areas of the Taltan economy,including mining.
Stewart Muir (00:48):
Yeah, it breaks so many stereotypes and it's a
fact that mining as an industryin Canada is the best paid.
So these aren't just jobs.
These are jobs that will paythe mortgage and send the kids
to college.
It's amazing.
Chad Norman Day is my guesttoday at Power Struggle.
(01:13):
I'm Stuart Muir.
Chad is the former four-termpresident of the Taltan Central
Government.
He's the youngest and longestserving president in that
nation's history.
He's also got degrees in nativestudies and political science
and law.
He was instrumental innegotiating historic agreements,
including the first underBritish Columbia's new act on
(01:35):
the Declaration on the Rights ofIndigenous Peoples, which came
into force in 2019.
He's also a passionate advocatefor health and wellness.
He's raised half a milliondollars for health and wellness.
He's raised half a milliondollars for sports and wellness
programs through the HealthyActive Taltans Initiative.
Chad.
Welcome to Power Struggle.
Chad Day (01:52):
Thank you for having me.
Stewart Muir (01:54):
I'm really excited .
We've been talking about thisepisode for a long time.
I'd like to start, though, foranyone who isn't aware of what
the Taltan people are, wherethey are.
What is the traditionalterritory of the Taltan people?
Chad Day (02:06):
So the Taltan nation is up in northwest British
Columbia.
The northernmost tip actuallygoes into the Yukon.
It's over 97,000 squarekilometers, so it's about the
size of Portugal, whichencompasses about 11% of British
Columbia, and we have about4,000 members.
(02:27):
About 20 to 25% live in theterritory, with the remaining
living outside the territory,mostly in British Columbia.
But we have some people in theUnited States and other parts of
the world and Taltan peoplehave certainly continued to be
very nomadic in the modern times.
Stewart Muir (02:50):
What makes the Taltan special?
Chad Day (02:52):
I would say in pre-contact times we were known
to be mining people.
We had obsidian at MountAdsaiza and we utilized that to
have all kinds of advantageswith weaponry and making tools
and we traded that obsidian.
They've actually found someobsidian as far south as Florida
(03:15):
, meaning that multipleindigenous groups obviously
traded it to get there.
I assume.
In the modern day, I would say,we're well known for being in
the mining industry.
We're avid hunters, fishermen.
The guide outfitting industryactually started in Telegraph
Creek where my father was bornand raised many generations ago
(03:42):
and I think Taltans have alwaysbeen known to be a very strong,
passionate, hardworking,independent people.
Stewart Muir (03:50):
There's over 200 First Nations in British
Columbia.
Is there an origin story of theTaltan people?
Chad Day (03:55):
I've heard a couple variations.
I've heard about Siskiyatso,which means big raven, and
obviously a lot of indigenouspeople have a story about the
raven and bringing the light andlife and things like that.
I've also heard stories aboutsisters coming together at this
(04:17):
beach, at the confluence of thetaltan and the stikine River,
near a rock called Thaddu, whichwe'll talk about later, and
that those sisters kind ofdecided that they would start up
a new nation and I guess theymust have found some men at some
point, because Taltan peoplebecame several thousand and,
(04:40):
like I said, today we're stillat 4,000.
Stewart Muir (04:43):
One of the reasons why I was so keen to invite you
to Power Struggle and I'm soglad you're here finally today
is that the TALTAN have reallyemerged, in a sense, with a
special significance in terms ofa lot of strategy that ties to
the future of energy, includingenergy metals and minerals that
are in existence in the groundin that area, but also there's
(05:07):
some fascinating energy issueson transmission corridors, the
use of electricity in mining,but also energy corridors going
through the traditionalterritory or adjacent to it,
where there's all kinds ofalmost globally significant
geopolitical issues.
I think the first thing that weshould talk about is why it is
(05:33):
that Taltan are so especiallysignificant, at least in my view
, do you agree?
Chad Day (05:37):
Yeah, very important to the future of the country and
to the world, given what'sgoing on with minerals and the
geopolitical challenges aroundthe world.
So anybody in the mining spacecertainly has heard of the
Golden Triangle and should havepeople that they turn to to
(05:58):
better understand the TaltanNation if they plan on going
through the territory, let aloneextracting any minerals or
other resources from theterritory.
Stewart Muir (06:09):
Well, that's right .
I mean, if you Google GoldenTriangle, you'll find that there
it is drawn on the maps ofmining promoters and geologists
and mining companies over theyears and it denotes this region
where there's an incrediblenumber of ore deposits that are
accessible to mining, and thisis really what has brought so
much opportunity, and maybeother issues, to your community.
Chad Day (06:33):
Yeah, it's definitely a blessing and a curse at the
same time.
I think one of the challengesis always trying to figure out,
as a Taltan nation, how wecontrol the pace.
But at the same time, themining industry has dominated
our economy up there for severalgenerations and it's provided a
(06:56):
very good living and livelihood.
And as Indigenous law haschanged in Canada and British
Columbia and we've been able tocapitalize on that, the benefits
and the independence hasobviously grown with every
generation, which is a goodthing.
Stewart Muir (07:16):
There's a great example of mining in Teltan
territory, that's Redcrisp Mine.
What's that all about?
Chad Day (07:22):
Redcrisp Mine is a copper slash gold mine that's
really close to the community ofIskut and every year anywhere
from 150 to 200 Taltan areworking up at the mine site.
So it's obviously a hugeeconomic driver and supports a
lot of families throughout theTaltan Nation, within the
(07:42):
territory and wherever Taltanpeople live.
Stewart Muir (07:46):
I'm going to pull a little clip from a video
that's on the Taltan centralgovernment's website, the women
who work at Red Cris Mine, whichI just love that video because
it shows something that I thinkwill surprise a lot of people.
Chad Day (08:10):
I just enjoy doing this stuff.
This stuff is pretty cool to do.
It's big equipment.
It's big equipment, big chunkof iron.
It's fun Moving mountains,making mountains.
I like it.
Stewart Muir (08:27):
I've worked in the territory before and it's just
nice to be back closer to home,closer to family.
It's a community, right, thisis a little community and to see
family.
A lot of people, if they thinkabout mining at all, probably
think of it as something thatmen do Brawny men going down
mining shafts or driving trucks?
(08:48):
That's not what we see in thatvideo.
It's women from the TaltanNation.
How did this come about?
Chad Day (08:56):
The Taltan Nation is a matrilineal society.
Every year that I was president, 75% or more of the board of
directors was women and I grewup with very strong Taltan women
in my life.
So my whole life I've known thewomen to be very successful in
(09:21):
all areas of the Taltan economy,including mining.
My mother is non-Indigenous andmy father is the Taltan, but
they met mining and she and mysisters have been in all aspects
of mining.
So it may come as a surprise toa lot of people, but I think
(09:42):
for a lot of Taltan people it'sno surprise to see women doing
all the jobs that men can do onthe mine site.
And when it comes to the heavyduty equipment jobs, I've been
told that the the women usuallydo it better and far safer than
the men.
So shout out to all the Taltanwomen out there yeah, it breaks
(10:03):
so many stereotypes.
Stewart Muir (10:04):
Just love that.
And it's a fact that mining asan industry in Canada is the
best paid, so these aren't justjobs.
These are actually jobs thatwill pay the mortgage and send
the kids to college.
It's amazing.
Chad Day (10:19):
Absolutely.
It's an industry that peoplecan definitely make a
comfortable living doing.
I was blessed to have twoparents that were in that
industry.
My older sisters were in thatindustry and all you need to do
is take a trip into the Taltancommunities and you'll see
(10:39):
people are doing quite well.
There's a lot of big trucks, alot of side-by-side snowmobiles
because, as I said earlier,taltan people really love to get
out on the land and are verycultural.
But it's a lot easier to use asnowmobile and a side-by-side to
do your hunting than it is toget through those conditions and
(11:02):
moccasins nowadays.
Stewart Muir (11:04):
Right.
The technology is there, use it.
You know I'm fascinated becauseat Power Struggle we talk about
the energy trilemma.
You know humanity needs moreenergy all the time and in the
case of Teltan, there you are,in the middle of the golden
triangle, the critical mineralsthat are needed for energy
transition, the energy metals,copper being most obvious one,
(11:27):
especially in the case of Taltan.
It's not trivial what you'redoing.
We need these metals andminerals.
Chad Day (11:32):
Yeah, taltan are very advanced in their understanding
of the mining industry.
As I said earlier, I think thebig challenges for the nation is
to figure out the pace that weare comfortable with and then
also the location and theimpacts.
We are known to be verypro-mining in a lot of circles,
(11:56):
but there's obviously areas thatwe've said that mining isn't
going to take place, like Klapan.
There's some areas aroundShesley that are very culturally
sensitive.
I don't think any of thecommunities want to have mining
projects near their communities.
Obviously, redcrisp is quiteclose to Iskut, but that process
(12:20):
started a long, long time ago.
Process started a long, longtime ago and that's really, I
think, the dilemma that Taltanpeople are going to have to face
for years to come is what isthe pace and where are we
comfortable having theseprojects?
But, as I said earlier, we dohave 11% of British Columbia, so
(12:41):
there are a lot of areas whereTaltTAN can support mining
projects and other industrialprojects and as long as we come
together with the province andindustry, I think we can find a
good balance and do it the rightway.
Stewart Muir (12:56):
In the headlines not long ago jade mining.
What's the background to that?
Chad Day (13:10):
that that industry is managed like the Wild West.
There's no benefits that comeback to the Taltan people when a
million dollar jade boulder istaken out of the wilderness.
And we had tried to find abetter balance with the province
.
They continually ignored us andat the time the board of
directors allowed me to takethings into my own hands and go
(13:31):
out there.
And you know we made a videoabout it, obviously, and
continued putting the pressureon, and I think things now are
in a place where that industryis no longer going to exist.
But that was never my intention.
My intention was to make surethat things could be overhauled
(13:53):
so that we as Taltan peoplecould work alongside the jade
industry and the province toperhaps have the industry
continue, but to continue in afashion that was much more
responsible for the environmentand continued in a fashion so
that Taltan people and the jadeindustry and the province could
(14:15):
all benefit together, whereasright now the province doesn't
benefit, the Taltan people don'tbenefit and it's just not an
industry that made sense formost parties.
Stewart Muir (14:28):
So for things you've wanted to welcome.
One of the issues has beenproviding the energy needed, and
there's been transmission lineinvestments that have really
brought the modern era to life.
Would you agree?
Chad Day (14:40):
Yes, that was before my time, but we definitely did a
big deal when the transmissionline came through and it
obviously changes themathematics and makes it far
more feasible for a lot moreindustrial projects to take
place in Taltan territory.
Stewart Muir (14:57):
So that transmission line, the ISCOT
line, has brought renewableenergy from hydropower to really
remote places, Some of the mostspectacular landscapes that a
person could go to, I think,anywhere in North America.
And I wonder is there a priceto pay for any disruptions?
(15:17):
How has it gone over Like it'screated opportunities, it's
created new minds.
Is this welcomed by Taltanpeople in general?
Chad Day (15:27):
Well, as I said, there's 4,000 Taltan people and
an elder Jerry Asp once said ina speech that if you put three
Taltans in a room together,they'll come out with about five
to ten different opinions.
So this is why it's soimportant to have what I call
internal reconciliation, whichis figuring out processes to
(15:51):
create decision-making certaintyamongst their own people.
And the Northwest HydroelectricProjects and the Red Chris Mine
and the Impact BenefitAgreement on Seabridge and other
mining projects, we had a veryrobust internal engagement and
(16:16):
consultation process with ourpeople that ultimately ended in
ratification votes from ourpeople.
So the first ratification votethat I went through as president
was for IBA that I negotiatedwith our team for the Red Cris
mine and that ultimatelyresulted in an 87% support
(16:42):
ratification vote.
Stewart Muir (16:43):
And IBA is an impact benefit agreement,
correct and that flows benefitsto the nation.
Chad Day (16:49):
From the company itself, and then that normally
goes hand in hand with some formof a revenue sharing agreement
with the province on the taxrevenue that is generated from
the project in some ways Notalways, unfortunately, but you
do get a piece of the taxrevenue.
Stewart Muir (17:07):
So the benefits created by these primary
investments, like a transmissionline, have in fact translated
into socially desired benefitsfor Telten.
Chad Day (17:17):
Correct.
And with the NorthwestHydroelectric Project
specifically, we were in thenews for buying into that
project and breaking some kindof record, because it was over
$100 million and we are partowners of these clean energy
projects in our own territoryand those projects are, I think,
(17:39):
worth around $3 billion andthat's what feeds the Northwest
transmission line.
When we negotiate theseagreements in the right way and
obviously make sure that we takecare of the environment and our
culture in the process, we canuh benefit, hopefully, on every
(18:00):
large piece of infrastructureand project that comes through
the territory chad.
Stewart Muir (18:05):
You travel a lot.
You get around the world.
How would you compare thetelten, say, Indigenous peoples
in other countries you've beento?
Chad Day (18:12):
Without getting to know other Indigenous groups
nearly as well.
Obviously, I would say thatCanada, british Columbia
specifically, is definitelyleading the way in a lot of
aspects of making sure thatIndigenous people are
meaningfully involved andobviously part owners of some of
(18:33):
these projects, and they haveIBAs and they have revenue
sharing agreements with theprovince and you don't see that
in a lot of other areas of theworld.
I specifically think aboutplaces like South America, where
I visited several countries andmy wife is from the Philippines
(18:54):
and I've seen some of theindigenous groups over there.
The arrangements with some ofthe indigenous people and even
just communities is nothing likeit is in British Columbia.
So we still have a lot of workto do in British Columbia, of
course, but when you compare ourjurisdiction to a lot of others
, we are certainly doing muchbetter.
Stewart Muir (19:17):
And is there a way to share these learnings
internationally, so that part ofwhat we do is we provide the
energy and energy products theworld needs?
We're also part of bringingthis positive change elsewhere.
Chad Day (19:30):
Yeah, we can certainly try to share those best
practices.
Obviously there's a lot ofmining companies that are
completing these projects indifferent jurisdictions, so they
know what the standards are inplaces like Canada and
Scandinavia compared to othercountries like South America and
the Philippines.
(19:50):
And I guess it comes down togovernments and industry and
community members just comingtogether and figuring it out.
But it took us a long time toget to where we are today and
I'm not going to pretend to knowthe complexities of those other
countries and those otherindigenous cultures.
Stewart Muir (20:09):
You referenced.
Hey, if you've got modernconveniences, use them to make
life more convenient, moreenjoyable.
And you're quite a backcountryspecialist yourself.
I follow you on Facebook and Iam always amazed at some of the
spectacular places you get to,and I know you're passing this
along to your children in somany interesting ways all the
(20:32):
time.
But are you afraid that we'reat a kind of tipping point in
culture and society?
With the mobile devices, wehave the ubiquitous connectivity
where these traditions couldjust get lost in the shuffle.
Chad Day (20:48):
Absolutely, and it's already happening.
So in Taltan territory we'rehaving problems with the king
salmon populations.
There's caribou herds in someareas that are almost wiped out
and the other ones have been onthe decline.
Very passionate about predatormanagement.
(21:16):
Every clan knew where the wolfdens were, grizzly bears were
managed, and today it's verydifficult.
It's basically impossible tomanage the natural resources
like we used to, because wedon't live on the land like we
used to.
There used to be many trailsand village sites and clans
living in different areas, andnow the Taltan Nation lives in
(21:38):
three communities, and this isobviously with other Indigenous
people as well.
So modern technology is nice,but I would say that the
province, the federal governmentand Indigenous people in some
instances need to takeresponsibility on themselves as
well.
We need to make sure that weutilize those new tools and that
(22:02):
new technology to stillprioritize cultural resources,
natural resources like we usedto resources, natural resources
like we used to, and I think areally good example is the
relationship that we have withwildlife and fisheries
populations, because that's notin a good place in British
Columbia and it's not in a goodplace in Taltan territory either
(22:24):
.
Stewart Muir (22:25):
You've talked about how three quarters or more
of Taltan people don't live inthe territory.
They live elsewhere, mostly inNorth America, in Canada.
Do you think there's somethingthat would attract more people
back to the homeland?
Chad Day (22:38):
Yeah, we need to invest a lot more in housing.
Part of that is on BritishColumbia, part of it is on
Taltan people as well.
We have a Taltan Heritage Trustthat has over $100 million in
it right now, and when I started10 years ago it was at about $6
(22:59):
million and we still are notmaking those strategic
investments.
But at the same time, one ofthe issues that we've always had
is that the province is able toextract a lot of minerals and a
lot of wealth from ourterritory and we've never seen a
(23:19):
fair return on that wealth interms of the highways, the um,
the safety infrastructure.
As an example, our largestcommunity of Iskut does not have
a RCMP detachment, so ifthere's ever an emergency there,
they need to phone the RCMP inDease Lake and you'll be lucky
(23:41):
if the RCMP gets there within anhour.
Stewart Muir (23:45):
How far apart?
Chad Day (23:46):
It's about 80 kilometers, so, again, you'll be
lucky if they're there withinan hour.
There's not a single passinglane on the highway throughout
Taltan territory and, like Isaid, this is an area the size
of Portugal.
Stewart Muir (24:00):
So that's generating incredible wealth.
Chad Day (24:03):
Yeah, exactly, and we could go on and on about the
lack of investment being madeinto the territory, and I guess
this is where you would talkabout economic reconciliation
and, you know, really taking adeep dive into the numbers.
So I think the Taltan peopleand the province still need to
(24:25):
sit down and have a seriousconversation about what is the
Taltan nation's fair share,given all of the development
that has happened in the pastand that continues to happen
today.
Stewart Muir (24:38):
Who are your neighbors among the First
Nations of the Northwest ofBritish Columbia?
Chad Day (24:43):
Nisga'a to the south.
We've always had a goodrelationship with them the Kca
and the Tlingit to the north,and then there's some treaty
eight nations, I guess to the tothe northeast.
But when I was presidentdefinitely had a good
relationship with the Nisga'a,casca, tlingit.
Stewart Muir (25:06):
And that's on both sides of the US-Canada border
in some cases.
Chad Day (25:10):
The Tlingit are on the Alaska side as well, for sure.
Stewart Muir (25:16):
I have some Nishka friends who always have some
good jokes.
What's Taltan humor like?
Chad Day (25:23):
Yeah, I think they're very funny people in the
community.
When people talk about Taltans,there's such a variety,
depending if you're talkingabout the Taltans that live in
Terrace, which is the largestpopulation of Taltans living in
one area, versus the Taltans inIskut, versus Dees Lake, versus
(25:46):
Telegraph Creek.
So I grew up in Telegraph Creekand I consider Telegraph Creek
to be my only home, so when youask a question like that, I
think of the funniest people inin Telegraph Creek.
But obviously when you look atFacebook and stuff like that,
there's there's funny peopleeverywhere and our elders are
(26:09):
very funny.
I think when you look ateverything some of them had to
endure with the residentialschools and things like that, I
think indigenous humor reallyhelped get them through, and any
time that I played bingo withsome of the elders or things
like that, it's definitely ariot getting those older female
(26:34):
elders together.
I would say they're a lot morefunny and less serious than the
men, right?
Stewart Muir (26:40):
Sounds like a fun time.
Would you consider yourself thefirst generation to emerge into
the leadership roles thatyou've had, that isn't directly
at a personal level, under theshadow of residential schools,
from your own experience of life?
Chad Day (26:55):
That's a good question .
Under the shadows, my fatherwas a residential school
survivor and I think there'sbeen a lot written about the
intergenerational aspects and inmany cases people were
(27:18):
mistreated dearly in thecommunity by other residential
school survivors.
So I would have a hard timeanswering that question.
I think it still has asignificant impact on everybody.
But what I will say about myown experience is that I'm
(27:39):
extremely proud that my fatherworked very hard to become a
hardworking, proud Taltan manand I never witnessed any of the
violence or the atrocities thathe experienced in residential
(28:01):
school.
And maybe I'm lucky that I wasborn, you know, 15 years after
my older sister.
I don't know what he was likein his younger days, but I know
a lot of our elders, includingmy dad, worked very hard to
become the best version ofthemselves after having very
negative experiences atresidential school.
Stewart Muir (28:22):
So you came out of university, you had a law
degree, but you chose not to goto the bar because you had
another plan for yourself.
Is that right?
Chad Day (28:30):
because you had another plan for yourself.
Is that right?
I would say that many TALTANpeople had another plan for me
and I just kind of caved intothat, given what was going on
with my life at the time.
I had five children while goingthrough law school, which was a
lot more challenging than lawschool itself for me, and when
(28:54):
we separated, it put me in adifficult position where I
wanted to be in the North withmy children and everything just
kind of lined up, and there wasa lot of pressure from the
Taltan people for me to returnto the nation and become either
(29:16):
the chief of the Taltan band orthe president of what was then
the Taltan Central Council.
So I did a lot of research andultimately decided that I would
run to be the president, andthat was only two months after
graduating from law school, so Inever had the opportunity to go
(29:38):
and do the course andapprentice under other lawyers,
and then I ended up remainingthe president for 10 years until
I decided to leave it behind.
Stewart Muir (29:50):
Well, everyone who knows you knows how
accomplished you've been in thatrole.
Do you ever wonder if you hadtaken a different fork into a
law career in the city, whatlife would be like?
Chad Day (30:04):
I think about it often , but I feel like I made the
right decision because mydecision was based on my
children and my community, whichtakes precedent over money and
career in the city.
I would have loved to haveremained in Victoria.
I love Victoria and I'm sureI'll spend a lot more time in
(30:28):
Victoria in my latter years,more time in Victoria in my
latter years.
But following the separationand the former spouse and the
children moving back to northernBC there, there was no other
option.
I had to move back to northernBC to be with them and, given
the lack of articlingopportunities and lawyers that I
(30:49):
would feel comfortable workingwith, it was a pretty easy
decision and I'm happy with thedecision because myself and the
Taltan Central Government teamthat I built and oversaw for 10
years we were able to do manyamazing things and empower so
(31:10):
many Taltan people.
So I think I did the rightthing.
Stewart Muir (31:15):
No doubt about it, victoria being the seat of
government of the province ofBritish Columbia.
I know we have viewers in theUnited States who are curious
about what's going on in Canadain different ways.
If you had to describe thedifference between, say, how
tribes engage in the economywhether it's the lower 48 or
(31:35):
Alaska, compared to how thingsare in Canada, how would you
explain what's going on with aphenomenon like UNDRIP and the
economic success that TELTAN hadcompared to how tribes do
generally in the US?
Chad Day (31:50):
I don't know the legal landscape well enough in the US
to fully answer that question,but I know that it really
differs from jurisdiction tojurisdiction in the US.
I know that in somejurisdictions in the US it's
very easy for indigenous peopleto open up casinos and they have
(32:15):
a lot more flexibility withtheir economic development than
we have in Canada in a lot ofrespects.
But again, it depends on whichstate that you're talking about
and I think the relationshipbetween American states and the
indigenous people is verydifferent than Canada, given how
(32:40):
the United States became acountry compared to a
Commonwealth country in Canada.
So it's a good question to asksome political science students,
but I would need to workclosely with more tribes in the
US to give you a better answerthan that.
Stewart Muir (32:59):
When you look at the border region between the US
and Canada in the Northwest,which is to say where Alaska and
British Columbia and the YukonTerritory meet, there's a lot
going on there.
That's probably out of sight tomost people but it looks like
an intriguing place.
You know we're here to talkabout my thing.
I'm interested in energy andthe struggle for power in
(33:22):
people's lives.
You know, to solve that energytrilemma.
And when I look at this place onthe map you're looking at
future critical minerals minesthat will bring forth whether
it's the copper, I think youwill find germanium and you'll
find other rare earths that arein a special category of what
(33:43):
can be mined and it's going tobecome more and more important
to humanity that we can sourcethose.
But this border area has been asource of a lot of friction.
You know there's some potentialmines probably some of them in
Taltan territory that are kindof locked into the kind of
uncertainties and legal issuesthat can exist around borders.
(34:08):
Do you have any thoughts abouthow, over the long term, some of
the issues will be resolved sothat the potential of the Taltan
and the Tlingit people inAlaska will be?
You know part of that.
Chad Day (34:21):
Well, I think the Taltan nation needs to stand
firm that opportunities in ourhomeland, we will make the
decisions around thoseopportunities.
Ten years being president, Ican't remember anybody from the
Tlingits in Alaska or any otherAlaska tribe, coming to Taltan
(34:43):
and asking our opinions aboutopportunities that they had.
We've had a lot of issues withfish because of Alaskans and
they never came to us to speakto us about those things either.
So I think the Taltan Nationneeds to do what our ancestors
have always done, which is to befirm and strong with what is
(35:07):
ours in our territory.
They should be working closelywith the province to take a firm
stance with Alaska and at theend of the day, we can pursue
responsible economic developmentand I have no problem having a
conversation with tribes inAlaska and making sure they are
(35:33):
properly informed about a lot ofthe activities that are
happening in Taltan territoryand in the province.
But at the end of the day, itis our jurisdiction as Taltan
people and British Columbians.
So that's my stance on it.
Stewart Muir (35:49):
Chad, you had an incredible first act in your
career.
Leaving law school drawn to thehomeland, it was imparted to
you that you had a duty and youstepped up to that and you
served in the roles you'verecently stepped back from.
What's the second act for ChadNorman Day.
Chad Day (36:06):
Well, the next chapter .
I started a company.
It's called Thaddeu ConsultingCorporation Thaddeoca how's that
spelled?
thaduca.
But at this point my goal is toutilize my expertise, my
knowledge, to help otherindigenous people mining
(36:30):
companies, companies.
I would consider myself anexpert with indigenous relations
and with really bridging thegap and building those
relationships and meaningfulagreements and relationships
between indigenous people andindustrial companies, but also
(36:51):
helping indigenous people figureout that internal
reconciliation, which I think issomething we don't talk about
enough because it would beimpolite and other groups don't
want to talk about it, but we,as Indigenous people, need to
make sure that we have internalprocesses that allow us to make
(37:13):
decisions together.
There's a lot of talk aboutconsent, but what does that mean
?
Does consent mean the chief andcouncil and the five to 12
people on chief and council needto consent?
Does it mean everybody in thenation needs to consent?
And if it's everybody in thenation, who is included in that
(37:35):
definition?
Is it everybody with Taltanancestry?
Is it everybody that'sregistered to the bands within
that nation?
These are all intricate thingsthat are very, very important,
that need to be worked out.
Even the term nation so earlier, when you had mentioned that
(37:57):
there were over 200 FirstNations in British Columbia.
Even hearing that, I'm thinkingin my head what does First
Nation mean to you.
There's nations, there's FirstNations, there's groups that
want to provide their consent asa band and then there's other
(38:17):
groups, like the Taltan, who saywe have multiple bands here and
we're going to includeeverybody in these decisions.
So it's that internalreconciliation, working out
those internal processes amongstyourselves, because a lot of
Indigenous people are strugglingto find certainty, the same way
(38:42):
that government and industryare struggling to find certainty
with Indigenous people.
So that's where I think I couldreally be useful to a lot of
different groups is helping thembuild those policies, build
those processes, build thecommunication, because the
Taltan success story of havingthese agreements and the
(39:07):
economic development and some ofthe most robust communication
processes you'll ever see, therewere several arms to that that
took a lot of work and that werebuilt on, you know, generations
of success and mistakes andlearning.
So if I can bring that to othergroups and help out government,
(39:29):
industry, indigenous people mygoal is just to make sure that
we bridge the gap with all thisuncertainty so that everybody
can prosper Because at the endof the day, the people in
government and their kids,indigenous people, and their
kids, industry and their kids,they're all going to the same
school, they're all playing onthe same teams, they all want to
(39:49):
utilize the same hospitals whenthere's an emergency, and I
think this uncertainty holdingus back is really
counterproductive and I thinkit's hitting a breaking point in
this province that could end uptaking us even further
backwards if we're not careful.
Stewart Muir (40:08):
What is the uncertainty?
Chad Day (40:10):
The uncertainty is what are the processes that we
are going to follow to makedecisions and uphold those
decisions?
As an example, when you talkabout consent for something as
complicating as a pipeline,about consent for something as
complicating as a pipeline,industry needs to figure out who
(40:31):
are we talking to in order toget consent and what is the
process to get to consent, andhow do we do this and uphold
this?
When there's multiple groups,it's a huge issue, and then even
leaders themselves are having ahard time internally building
(40:52):
processes so that they can makedecisions and uphold decisions.
Worth the time and theinvestment to have a really,
really robust process where wewould go out to 12 to 16
(41:12):
different communities in theterritory, out of the territory,
online, get everybody's input,make the agreement available to
everybody, the draft agreementand then eventually get to a
place where you have aratification vote.
And for me, the reason why I'mproud of that process and why I
(41:32):
felt that it was the rightprocess is because if something
like the Red Chris impactbenefit agreement is supported
by 87% of the people and thenyou have 1% or 2% or 3% of the
people blockading to shutsomething down or whatever the
case may be, and then thecompany or the province or the
(41:57):
authorities come back to thegovernment and say you know,
will you support us?
It gives me the ability to saythis isn't personal against the
people that are blockading, butwhat they're doing is
disrespecting the will of thenation.
They're not disrespecting me asthe leader, they're not
disrespecting our government.
They're disrespecting a decisionthat was made by the people who
(42:21):
collectively hold the title andrights and, in my opinion,
should collectively be makingdecisions that have permanent
impacts on those collectivetitle and rights and, in my
opinion, should collectively bemaking decisions that have
permanent impacts on thosecollective title and rights.
So there's a lot to unpack thereand every group is different,
but I do think the uncertaintyis around how do we make
(42:46):
decisions and how do we upholdthose decisions?
And until we find that theuncertainty remains and
unfortunately a lot of theseprojects are going to remain on
a hamster wheel and that's notgood for anybody we need to
figure out where can we dobusiness, where can we not do
business.
And in the areas where we cando business because the
(43:07):
Indigenous group is saying thiscould be open for business we
need to have streamlinedprocesses that can stand in the
face of scrutiny and so thatIndigenous people have the
ability to uphold some of theirown decisions, because that's
obviously become an issue allover British Columbia, obviously
(43:31):
become an issue all overBritish Columbia, and I don't
blame a lot of industrialcompanies for doing business
elsewhere.
We have a lot of work to dothere.
So hopefully I can help out,because I think Taltan have done
a pretty good job of it.
Stewart Muir (43:43):
Linear infrastructure that goes across
a long area and it encountersdifferent people along the way.
It's a little different than apoint of industry activity like
a mine, which is pretty much inone spot.
Do you think it's just moredifficult to do anything linear,
whether it's a transmissionline, Because there's more
(44:04):
transmission lines that aregoing to go to the British
Columbia coast in order to meetthe demand for green electricity
?
Right, and they might be, we'rehearing just as opposed as, say
, a gas pipeline is to the coast.
Chad Day (44:18):
Yeah, it's definitely more challenging and with every
nation they have varying degreesof challenges within their own
governance system.
So with the Taltan nation youhave a central government who
takes the lead on title andrights processes and that
process is robust enough thatthe two bands and all Taltan
(44:44):
people can buy into that andbelieve that it has credibility
and integrity and, as a result,that process has certainty.
But in other groups, if youhave a central government
structure and they're trying todo what the TCG has done, and
(45:04):
then multiple chief and councilstructures and they don't get
along with each other, and thenthere's hereditary chiefs and
sometimes they're not gettingalong with each other and
arguing about who is a realchief and who's not and who's
lost their title, I I just can'timagine working in an
environment like that as uh, asindustry.
(45:24):
And that's where you know youneed to be able to, to figure
out the internal reconciliationfirst and then hopefully you can
work with government andindustry.
But other times government andindustry can help, can help fund
that, that internal work.
But it's it's complicating, andsomething people need to
(45:47):
understand as well is thatIndigenous people, our
population grows four and a halftimes faster than others and
since the COVID pandemic ourlife expectancy has been lowered
more than any other group.
So the changing dynamics in ourcommunities it changes much
(46:13):
faster and more rapidly.
We're having children whenwe're younger we have more
children.
The residential school traumaand intergenerational impacts
mean we're losing more people.
It's a lot to take on.
So when you talk about consentand providing certainty and
(46:36):
working with Indigenous groups,when there's so many layers, it
takes a lot of work and it's notsomething that you can throw an
expert on for three or sixmonths.
You're going to have to workwith a lot of these nations for
years just to help build thegovernance, build the processes
and then hopefully build arelationship to get some of
(46:57):
these projects over the finishline.
Stewart Muir (47:00):
It feels like a mini course that we're getting
from your experience today.
I'd just like to close on onequestion.
Thinking ahead half a century,what do you think success would
be for the TALTAN?
Chad Day (47:13):
I think the goal is to reflect a true nation's
government, to have our owninstitutions, to have people
that have proper training andintegrity and checks and
balances overseeing thoseinstitutions.
Things like having our ownwildlife department who makes
(47:38):
decisions based off of localTaltan and Western science
science.
Having things like our ownjustice system so that we can
deal with conflicts in anefficient way and so that we can
get a fair share of the valueof all the minerals and all the
(48:00):
resources that come out of ourterritory, because if we start
getting a fair share, we'll havemore than enough to revitalize
our languages, to do all theland use planning and work that
we need to, which would, at theend of the day, provide more
certainty for everybody andprovide a lot of prosperity for
(48:22):
Taltan people for generations tocome.
So I think that's the goal andhopefully that's what I see when
I'm an elder living inTelegraph Creek, like my dad is
today.
Stewart Muir (48:37):
Chad Day.
Former president of the Taltancentral government.
Thanks for being here today,chad.
Chad Day (48:42):
Thanks again.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.