February 4, 2025 • 41 mins
Victoria Woodhull: The Unstoppable Force
Got a story? Email shechangedhistory@gmail.com
In this episode, we delve into the extraordinary life of Victoria Woodhull, who transitioned from a poverty-stricken childhood to become a pioneer in finance, journalism, and women's rights. We explore her journey from being a fortune teller to the first female Wall Street tycoon, her radical beliefs in free love, and her historic run for the U.S. presidency. With notable successes and intense criticisms, Victoria's life was a series of groundbreaking achievements and relentless challenges. We also discuss the impact of her ventures on the women's suffrage movement and her persistent fight for equality.
Other episodes mentioned today: 1. Ching Shih
Sources today are:
https://www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/victoria-woodhull
https://wams.nyhistory.org/industry-and-empire/fighting-for-equality/victoria-woodhull/
https://time.com/6107025/victoria-woodhull-free-love-movement/
https://brucewatson4.medium.com/victoria-for-president-in-1872-38d20013d13a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Woodhull
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Woodhull
00:00 Behind the Scenes: Recording Challenges
00:49 Introducing Kara: The New Co-Host
02:05 Victoria Woodhull: A Remarkable Journey Begins
03:47 Early Life Struggles and Family Turmoil
07:44 Marriage and Misfortune
09:51 Embracing Free Love and New Beginnings
15:58 Financial Independence and Wall Street Success
19:53 Advocating for Radical Social Reforms
23:08 Victoria Woodhull's Political Ambitions
28:16 Challenges and Criticisms
33:08 The Downfall and Legacy of Victoria Woodhull
36:23 Reflections on Victoria Woodhull's Impact
38:59 Closing Remarks and Personal Anecdotes
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1246976076 (00:08):
That's why it takes us four hours to record a
20 minute episode.
You actually only get 20 minutesof usable material.
I understand.
I've known you a while now.
I'm unsurprised.
I also didn't get the, um, thecostume memo from either of you.
flannel shirts.
Yeah, I'm pretty much from Julytill like May the 3rd.
(00:30):
It's flannel, flannel season.
There's like two weeks ofsummery dresses.
But other than that, it'sflannel season.
And Simon obviously is part ofthe same tribe.
Love it, love it, love it, loveit.
I'll take note.
Nice.
do you want to go?
Shall we go?
Cool.
Hi, Vicky.
(00:51):
Hi, Simon.
How are you?
Yeah, very well, thanks.
How are you doing?
I'm good, thank you.
Good, good.
We, we've been invaded.
We have, yeah.
The American invasion of 2025.
Get the year rolling.
Oh, well, the first Americaninvasion of 2025.
Let's leave, let's leave it opento what may come.
Oh, you might recognize Kara'svoice from our, trailer.
(01:13):
Very kindly did a bit ofvoiceover for us.
You were the, filthy seductresswho did a few lines for us on
that.
Now you being here, there's twopieces of news really.
One is, I'm having a baby.
With my wife, and I'm the dad,yeah.
So that's cool, and I suspectthat's going to take up a bit of
(01:34):
time.
So whilst I'm busy learning howto keep a child alive, Cara's
going to step in and do a fewepisodes in my absence.
And so joining us today, just toLearn the ropes.
Yeah, just a gentle introductionwe were thinking rather than
dropping you in the deep end.
So it's so lovely to have youhere.
Thank you very much.
Long time listener, first timevisitor, so I appreciate it.
(01:58):
Love it.
I've got a story for you today.
You ready?
cool.
So this is about a lady calledVictoria Woodhall.
I've got a little intro here.
From fortune teller to WallStreet tycoon, presidential
candidate to scandalous headlinemaker, Victoria defied every
(02:18):
expectation of Victorianwomanhood.
Born into poverty, escaping anabusive marriage, she became a
champion of free love, afinancial powerhouse, and the
first woman to run for thePresident of the United States.
This is the unbelievable storyof Victoria Woodhull.
I thought you were going tobring us something impressive
(02:39):
this week, Vicky.
it says in there that this is anunbelievable story and it is,
that's how I felt like when Iwas researching it.
I was like, there's no waySimon's going to believe this.
Like there's just no way that'sgoing to happen at all.
And then, because we've got anactual American with us today as
well, it's kind of allserendipitous kind of come
together, We've got some sourcestoday, I've leaned on a couple
(03:02):
of articles, womenshistory.
org, there's a new site callednyhistory.
org, a Times article which wasreally useful, and there was a
blog post called Victoria forPresident, and then a couple of
Wikipedia articles as well.
Have you, Cara, have you heardof Victoria Woodhull?
No, but I am broadly ignorant,so don't let that be any
(03:23):
indication.
I just wondered, because it'slike the first female, you know,
you can see that being.
I know, you would think, youwould think that I should know
all about this, but, no, I meantlike the system, I meant like
the education system, maybe itno, this is, it's always a
mystery to me whether myignorance is my own or whether
it is actually, baked in, to theeducational system and maybe
(03:43):
both.
Maybe it's a mix.
Okay.
Well, hopefully this will befun.
So, Victoria was born in Homer,Ohio on the 23rd of September,
1838.
So we're right back in ourcomfort zone in Victorian times.
She has parents called ReubenBookman, Cleflin, and Roxanna
Hummel.
Roxanna went by Roxy.
(04:05):
She was number seven out of tenchildren, which we're learning
is quite normal, isn't it?
Like to have, Lots of children.
her childhood kind of was sotricky and turbulent.
It's really fascinating Herparents were unmarried which
today fine back then big dealand then probably the biggest
(04:29):
turning point in her childhoodwas that her family was forced
to leave their hometown underthe suspicion of That her father
had purposely burned down themill he owned for an insurance
payout because it had bad rot.
So, they got that reputation, asthat family in the town.
Ostracised, their name went overa month.
(04:51):
Ostracised, there you go, yeah.
Also, did they not have shotgunweddings back then?
It's like, normally if you getpregnant you just, quick, get
married in a month.
They made it through seven kids.
I don't know if it was maybe amoney thing because you have to
pay to get married and then, weare on like the poverty line
here.
So, she was known to starve as achild.
(05:12):
Her father was abusive.
They lost siblings because theirhealth was so bad.
Victoria actually spent herearly years.
So after the whole burning downthe mill situation, they went.
on the run, in a way, soactually they joined a traveling
show, and She and her sisterswould tell fortunes so they were
working at such a young age andselling homemade medicines.
(05:38):
Her dad was what was known as asnake oil salesman.
do you know anything about snakeoil?
Only from, that Simpsons episodewhere Homer and his dad sell
this, male potency thing.
The Simpsons are very good atpredicting so maybe they were,
maybe they were right, so snakeoil is such a fascinating, I'd
(06:00):
encourage people to go andresearch it because It's wild,
it's completely insane.
So basically they'd just takeany old oil they could find,
stick loads of spices and herbs,sometimes just some compounds,
some sand or something in there,and then they would sell it.
An overpriced rate.
And then, um, it's basicallyfraud because then you'd say,
(06:20):
This is this magic medicine andit will do all these magical
things.
And her dad did that for Aliving, right?
Like, that's how he earnedmoney.
Wow.
Like an early precursor to goop.
Precursor to what?
Goop.
Oh, goop, the, which one's that?
Oh, Gwyneth Paltrow.
That's it, yay.
We should cut that out, I don'twant to get sued.
(06:40):
Yes, that's all perfectlylegitimate.
She's got so many lawyers.
Those crystal eggs areabsolutely life changing.
Um, so this went on snake oiluntil 1906 when under the pure
food and drug act.
that was when that came in andthen you could end up facing
federal prosecution for fraud.
(07:02):
So actually we're in early1800s, 1840s around that time.
there was nothing stopping.
There's a really interestingepisode on snake oil, by the
podcast called MaintenancePhase, and its impacts on the
health industry and how it'smanifested in today.
If you really, you know, Ithought it was really
interesting.
So definitely go and researchthat.
(07:24):
because of all this poorVictoria, she didn't get much
education.
I think over time she had aboutthree years worth of schooling
at a local church school, so shewasn't necessarily educated
either.
And to be honest, she had a loton.
She had lots of fortunes to do,lots of traveling because she's
part of a traveling show.
and then again, not unusuallyfor the time she was married at
(07:47):
15, to a guide called CanningWoodhull.
And ironically, he was a doctor.
So there's her dad sellingmedicine.
He must have been considerablyolder than her unless people
were also becoming doctors atage 15 in those times.
Great point.
So he's a little bit older.
(08:08):
Yeah.
So it's her.
It turns out Canning was a lotlike her father because, he sold
patent medicines rather thansnake oil with staphine, and he
presented himself as a doctor,but there were no exams needed.
You didn't need a license to bea doctor back then.
It was very easy to pretend tobe an expert, right?
(08:30):
unfortunately, he was very muchlike her father.
Her married life wasn't reallyany better than what she'd grown
up with.
He was an alcoholic and he wasphysically abusive.
He cheated on Victoria manytimes and he failed to support
the family financially as well.
Because, you know, being a linedoctor, I don't think is that,
(08:52):
that fruitful.
It's not sort of lucrative inthe long term, is it?
There's only so many times, youcan be like, I found this thing.
Trust me, it works.
You know, so, they did have twochildren.
They had a son called Byron anda daughter called Zulu.
Byron actually had anintellectual disability, which
Victoria put down to canning andhis drinking.
(09:12):
And, he wasn't fit physically tobe a dad.
Then Victoria does somethingvery interesting.
She divorces him in 1864.
Divorced women back then wereseen very much as outcasts of
society, it wasn't a goodreputation.
But she might, that might nothave bothered her because she
(09:34):
had that thing with the fraudand the burning down of the
mill.
So she's already been seen as anoutcast by society throughout
her whole childhood.
I suppose she's experienced theflip side of that, of having
unmarried parents as well.
So growing up she would haveseen that reaction that she
gets.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
And it's, she was also part of amovement called free love.
(09:56):
So she, became very activelyinvolved in the free love
movement.
Do you know what the free lovemovement is?
Not in the 1800s.
Great point.
So this is before hippies.
This is the generation and freelove was founded by a utopian
socialist and philosopher JohnHumphrey noise.
(10:17):
he came up with the term freelove in 1848.
so very similar kind oftimeframe.
He's also known for starting aswingers community in upstate
New York.
That's where I was born.
Wow, who knew?
Yeah, they have a thrivingswingers community, who knew?
(10:38):
that seems like a risky time,because like the 60s, like, free
love, hippie, that sort ofsexual revolution in the 60s,
coincided with birth control.
Right.
So this movement of free lovewas a reaction to the industrial
revolution and that emphasis oncapitalism.
So they were like, this is greedorientated.
(11:00):
This is, not the right values.
We want these kinds of values.
Therefore one of the.
Values of free love is youshould only stay with someone in
a relationship if you werehappy, not for mutual gain.
So she didn't want to stay inher relationship with Canning
because she wasn't happy.
So that's what she did.
it was born out of a reaction toearly stage capitalism and as
(11:26):
three people in late stagecapitalism, maybe we should
learn something from that, Idon't know.
So, Victoria then divorces.
She actually finds herself ahusband.
He's actually quite cool.
he's part of these free lovemovements.
This is after, the Civil War.
his name is Colonel James HarveyBlood.
(11:47):
What a name.
And there's no official recordof them being married, but
they've both said, that they gotmarried in 1866, but we can't
really find anything there'ssomething slightly contradictory
about being in a free lovemovement and getting married.
Well, maybe they did air quotesmarriage, you know what I mean?
or like A commitment, what do wecall it, like humanitarian
(12:10):
marriage, where it's notnecessarily in a church or
anything, it's, you know, twohumans saying, I like you a lot.
so they, as a couple, moved toNew York City.
They take Victoria's sisterTennessee with them in 1868.
Tennessee has a nickname calledTenny.
So if you hear Tenny, that's whoit is.
(12:30):
Great nickname.
I know.
So cute.
It's like Agatha and Taggy.
I love that, I think that'sadorable, it's very sweet.
I like the tagging, that's nice,yeah.
Yeah! Victoria then started asalon.
Now salons also aren't what theyare today.
This was basically a space, likea club where you gathered and
(12:52):
chatted about different topicsand kind of influences on you at
the time.
So it's not a hair salon, it'sjust like a social kind of club.
it's very much in my head when Iread that I was like, oh, it's
like Twitter.
Like, it's like Twitter.
It's way nicer than Twitter.
Yeah, like.
In the good old days of Twitter,yeah, Doing this salon work, she
(13:12):
met many influential NewYorkers, and was very well known
as a, conversationalist.
She's, like, very good at workin a room, and, it's a talent,
right?
And I bet that's from travelingwith the, they're not circuses
though, but what would you callthat?
Like a traveling side show sortof side show.
Yeah, kind of thing.
(13:33):
I bet that's where she got thoseskills from.
Yeah, I mean, being a fortuneteller, you've got to be able to
talk a lot without much to goon.
That's so true.
Yeah, you've got pull of thosestrings.
Yeah, So, Victorian Tennesseecontinued doing spiritual
advisory work, is what they'recalling it now, so spiritual
advisors.
(13:54):
One of their clients wasactually a recently widowed
millionaire, because now she'sgot this massive network,
because she's doing this salon.
this millionaire was calledCornelius Vanderbilt, which is
also a great Sounds like avillain to me.
That sounds like yeah They wereif it's the same Vanderbilt's
(14:15):
how many can there be?
They had massive estates.
I know of them from Rhode Islandbecause one of the great
mansions was a Vanderbiltproperty.
I'm sure of it Yeah.
He's definitely, cemented inAmerican history.
I think I've heard them on somesort of podcast about railways
as sort of most big families ofthat time started in railways.
(14:37):
Of course.
Yeah.
Cause it's industrialrevolution.
Right.
so they allegedly helpedCornelius contact his dead wife.
So that's, he really valuedthem.
He was like, oh my gosh, you'vehelped me do this.
They also advised him onfinancial decisions and he also
taught them a lot of financialeducation as well.
So they just basically connectedand they learned how to invest
(15:00):
from Cornelius.
it really helped that Corneliushad a crush on Tenny.
he really fancied her.
his little pet name for her wasLittle Sparrow, and he actually
ended up proposing to Tenny aswell.
Tenny called him Old Boy, whichis not as nice, and politely
(15:22):
declined his proposal, she said.
Little Sparrow.
Tenterhooks.
Yes, Sweaty Pigeon.
Absolutely.
Predatory hawk.
I know, because the age gapwould be strong, maybe that's
the thing, isn't it?
A bit of niche Vanderbilt triviafor you.
Mm hmm.
At the end of the 19th century,Blenheim Palace was saved by
(15:45):
ruins from funds gained from theVanderbilts.
Oh my gosh, I love BlenheimPalace, it's amazing.
Wow.
Thank you.
so they've got Cornelius onboard, Victoria believed that
financial success was the key toall women's independence, even
more so than the right to vote.
(16:05):
So what did she do?
It then goes into a really tighttimeline.
So the next four or five years,a lot happened.
So Victoria took all thatknowledge she'd got from
Cornelius and she actually tookaction.
In 1869, there was a panic thatcrashed the gold market.
What Victoria chose to do wasjust rock up, rock up to, Wall
(16:28):
Street and set up a carriageoutside the gold exchange, then
offered advice that she'd takenfrom Cornelius, and then bought
deflated stocks during the paniccrash of the gold market.
She made 700, 000.
Wow.
from her little carriage outsideand buying stocks.
(16:48):
Cornelius was like, I like this.
I like this a lot.
I like what you're thinking.
And he helped them set up astock brokerage firm called
Woodhull, Claffin and Company,which then opened the next year
in 1870.
This stock brokerage firm was Iknow.
Um, and even, even better, Ithink, was that it was
(17:10):
exclusively for female clients.
So they really niched down onthis market.
Only females were allowed to goto this brokerage.
So we've had other stories, fromaround this time where women
weren't even allowed to startcompanies.
It had to be done in theirhusband's name and all their
assets belonged to theirhusband.
Did they have to, did they haveto get sneaky to set this up?
(17:30):
Not necessarily.
I think their clientele were, tobe honest, widows, like
widowhood, because we knowthat's a really, good way to
protect your money.
And also, you know, women didget pocket money as well, and I
think maybe husbands assumedthey were going to spend it on
dresses, and actually this was adifferent way of protecting it.
So, they targeted women, Whowanted to protect their money
(17:54):
and invest it and no one wouldtake them seriously So they you
know, they'd maybe approachbrokerages in the past and were
turned away There's even a signin the window that stated
gentlemen will state theirbusiness and then retire at once
My mum's got the same sign onher front door Quite right.
(18:16):
Absolutely.
Basically they made a splash inthe headlines of having women
on, on Wall Street, women in thestock exchange, women buying
gold, and that novelty kind ofwore off a little bit, and
people just thought it was maybea fad, but actually they
continue to make good money,this company, they continue to
make really good decisions, andthey actually ended up earning
other brokers respect in theindustry.
(18:38):
They were actually known as theQueen of Finance.
So that was Tenny and Victoria'snickname.
That's wicked.
And so often in these companies,you have, like, they start off,
women can't possibly do this, orthey're not allowed to, or how
on earth can a woman ride ahorse?
That sort of thing.
And then it comes along and,they kick ass and prove that, in
(18:58):
fact, it can happen.
And this, like, action seems tobe what changes Grudland merely
protesting or advocating it.
They're getting out there, doingit, proving these people wrong.
I know.
I feel like we should be doingthat.
But, you know, that's the thing.
Internal pressure, but like, um,it's really, it's really,
interesting that they, theyweren't just that a hot flash in
(19:20):
the pan, they didn't want to bethat they wanted to be continued
success, which is really cool.
So they had a decent business.
It wasn't just propaganda andsnake oil underneath it.
Well, I'd remember the reallytight timeline we're talking
about here.
So, the next bit is three monthsafter they started their
business, they used theirprofit.
So they're profitable threemonths in, and then they
(19:42):
actually launched a newspapercalled Woodhall and Clathvin
Weekly.
This newspaper was, again, themtaking action, just what you
were saying, them wanting to bepart of something bigger.
And they published articles,including Arguing for equal
treatment of women, giving womenthe right to vote, reforming
labor practices, legalizingprostitution.
(20:04):
So this is again, those freelove values coming through.
They wanted a reform on dresscodes.
They spoke about sex education,which was completely taboo at
the time.
They spoke about their spiritualbackgrounds, um, vegetarianism.
They were even like, maybe youshould do it, that's neat.
Yeah, and all this wasunderpinned by those values of
(20:25):
free love that we spoke aboutearlier, about, kind of pushing
back a little bit on capitalismand actually, love is love,
we're all, everyone's welcome,kind of thing.
This is, I can't necessarilycomment on the free love.
side of it, but that's such acontemporary set of topics for a
magazine.
And I mean, you think even thesedays, like, what's the Daily
Mail supplement?
(20:45):
Female or something.
You get a female specificsupplement in the paper that's
purely about, here's a goodplace to buy a dress that a
celebrity wore, and here's ameal you can cook for your
husband.
But to have a magazine that'sactually going out and tackling
these issues.
they're not easy issues either,like legalising prostitution and
sex education.
(21:06):
And vegetarianism, that's likethe three big hitters to tick
off, isn't it?
Bloody hell, Jesus! But they,again, they did this off their
own back, which was fascinating.
They had a writer who wrote alot for each issue called
Stephen Pearl Andrews, who was,the promoter of, a new, another
(21:27):
social system called Pantrarchy.
P A N T A R C Y.
C H Y, which was a theoryrejecting conventional marriage
and advocating for free love,combined with the communal
management of children andpoverty.
So it takes a village that kindof vibe.
Proper hippie stuff.
(21:48):
Really strong.
they did get criticism.
you don't want to go and usethat brokerage because they
believe in this.
so their reputation, nottarnished by this, but that they
linked the two up and they didhave their critics because it
was so radical, I guess,compared to what had come
before.
Really out of that sort ofconservative Victorian times.
(22:09):
Yes, you've got, this isVictorian, think of like
Victorian dresses and stuff likethat, crazy.
Yeah.
we know that Woodhull obviouslysupported these views, she
actually was also invited towrite a series of articles for
the New York Herald off the backof her Stop Break of Fame
exploring these topics.
(22:30):
So she's got two publicationsnow that she's contributing to,
which is insane.
And that was the thing that kindof drop fed her to be like,
actually, there's enough here tomake a paper.
So she was really involved init.
It wasn't just a, here's anidea, you go and do it.
She was very much on the groundwith it all.
so this kind of gives us aninsight into who Victoria is.
(22:51):
I think it's quite clear that,she, these values of where she
came from.
And now she's got success andshe's got money on top of all of
that.
what happens to people with.
The really strong values andthen suddenly come into a lot of
money.
Politics.
Damn right, politics comes aknocking.
(23:12):
All via social network.
Yeah.
And then rename it.
So you're right.
So Wall Street and White Houseobviously have a really close
link.
Secretary of State, Secretary ofTreasury, and she had
infiltrated both of these arenasusing her, salon and her
(23:35):
influence and her networking.
These are quite historicallymale.
areas.
But Woodhall wanted to changethat.
So she was known to give fieryspeeches.
a lot of those covered women'ssuffragette.
Notably in 1871, she did aspeech in the U.
S.
House of Representatives.
(23:56):
that speech was so well receivedthat it got her accepted by
suffragettes leaders, who then.
We're like, oh actually thiswoman's something, there's
something with her, it's notjust the flash in the pan of the
brokerage, it's not just this,the stuff she writes in the
papers, she's actually got solidviews here.
It seems like, all these thingsthat happened in her childhood,
(24:17):
inadvertently sort of trainingher up for this moment, because
I guess from her, like herparents and the way they were
ostracized, that must haveshaped her social views in some
way in being the child ofunmarried parents, and then
having this sort of ability forrhetoric and conversation from
her traveling sideshow skills.
(24:38):
And then the money as well.
And then the network from thesalon.
You need all of these really.
There are lots of rich peoplewho would be terrible
politicians.
And there are lots of people whocan speak well who don't have
the money to get into it.
But somehow it's just all, thishas all come together for her,
isn't it?
Yeah, politics leans towardspeople who can hold an audience,
who are happy to perform like astunt or two, and she, because
(25:02):
she is a performer, remember,like you were saying, she knows
how to keep people on theirtoes.
And Because of these speeches,she was now doing that in a
political setting.
There was lots of crowds aroundher when she went to the ballot
boxes because one of herarguments was, if you read
carefully, if you actuallylooked at the 14th and 15th
amendment, you'd find that itguarantees the protection of the
(25:24):
right of all citizens.
That was the wording, right?
So she was like, well, I'm acitizen.
Well, I should be able to vote.
And then she called this raucousat the ballot boxes, claiming
that the 14th Amendment actuallyAnd to be honest, her logic was
sound.
Like, yeah, she wasn't wrong.
She caused a stunt off the backof that.
(25:45):
So there was like paper articlesabout this rule because that she
caused at the ballot boxes andpeople are being like, look,
look, there's a woman.
Oh my God.
So that was her view on theright to vote.
Yeah.
I mean, fact doesn't count somuch if you can't get any
attention on it.
So yeah, for sure.
so you can see by this point,like she's making friends with
suffragettes.
She's got a little bit of famebehind her.
(26:05):
She's got this money behind her.
This all leads to, in 1971,Victoria announcing that she's
going to run for president forthe new United States, even
though women didn't technicallyhave the right to vote.
to be fair, there wasn'tanything written down that it
was illegal for women to run foroffice.
Like, they hadn't evenconsidered that.
They hadn't even thought itwould be an option.
Such, such an unthinkable idea.
(26:30):
Yes, on another technicality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
On another technicality.
She's like, I got you.
I got you guys.
she became the official nomineeof the newly formed equal rights
party.
that party was like a bit of aspin off of the suffragette
movement.
And They even, selected a blackman as the running partner, so
(26:55):
as vice president.
his name is Frederick Douglass.
He wasn't active in thecampaign, but he is on the
ballot papers, you can see them.
This is an incredible sort ofmiddle finger to society of the
time, isn't it?
Can you imagine?
In absolutely everything.
This is absolute outrage.
It's every, but again, it'scrazy, isn't it?
(27:19):
Because having just been througha presidential election, those
things were still areas ofcontention, weren't they?
Oh yeah.
Like having a woman run, havinga black woman run, all that kind
of stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, don't think about it toomuch.
So, the Equals Rights Party hopeto use the nominations to
reunite the suffragettes withthe African American civil
(27:40):
rights activists because there'sthis argument that suffragettes
were for white women, you knowwhat I mean?
They were alienating,minorities.
Victoria in 1871 publicly spokeout about, against the
government of, because it wasjust men.
So she She was making all theseclaims and what do people do
(28:03):
when a woman rises to some sortof position of power and
influence?
Trying to shoot her down inevery way possible and make out
that she's a, I don't know, adirty slut or something.
100 percent they tear her down.
Enter So, um, she was attackedfor her belief in free love,
(28:24):
which, was epitomized by afamous political cartoonist,
Thomas Nast, who depictedVictoria as Satan's wife,
basically advocating free love.
Did I put this picture in yournotes?
If not, I'll show you it.
It's like a cartoon.
Yeah, with demon wings.
(28:45):
Yep.
So there's her in, um, reallyquite scary.
She's got like horns and wingsand a cloak.
With a little sign that says,free love.
And in the background, there'sactually a woman, you can see
there, who would rather than bewith Victoria in this free love
movement, would actually Rather,carry her drunk husband on her
(29:07):
back with two babies, and makeher own way, rather than being
associated, really, withVictoria and her.
And this is the classic thing ofjust sidestepping the issue,
isn't it?
We're not going to, it doesn'tmatter what your arguments are
or the validity of them, we'renot going to address any of
those.
not going to address thesecauses or concerns that you
have.
We're just going to undermineyou completely.
(29:28):
100 percent and she was attackedon all fronts for being a woman.
She wasn't even 35 years old.
So there was that problem.
There was the free love problem.
There was a, coming from yourbackground problem, she was
attacked all over the place, butshe was a fighter, so, you know,
that's not the end of the story,but in the background, her
troubles were starting to mount,so her ex husband reappeared and
(29:48):
took up residency with her,because she was doing well, and
this again provided morematerial for the press to attack
her on, basically the press hadlots of ammo.
religious groups also didn'tlike Victoria because of her
free love, um, philosophy,preachers were known to call her
unwieldly.
Is that it?
Unwildly.
Unwieldly.
Unwieldy?
Yes, there we go.
(30:09):
Unwieldy.
I've never described anyone asunwieldy before.
I would not feel comfortableusing that word in conversation.
I'm not gonna lie, I'd be like,nope.
She's essentially unwieldy witha wheelbarrow.
Well maybe that's what theywanted her to be, I don't know.
Um, one of her most vocalcritics was Reverend Harvey Ward
(30:33):
Beecher.
Now, Victoria, remember she rana newspaper, she is not, unknown
to go dig in for a story.
She just happened to find outthat Henry, Reverend Henry, was
cheating on his wife with amarried woman in the parish.
So, not only is he slammingVictoria for free love.
(30:55):
He's slamming another woman.
He's slamming her for free loveand having sex out of marriage.
You can't possibly do that.
But then, he's having sex out ofmarriage with a woman in his
parish.
That's why he was so angry aboutit.
He just wanted to deflect theattention away.
I would describe that as highlyunwieldy.
(31:16):
the hypocrisy was out of thisworld.
so Victoria was like, well,you're clearly not, you're not
coping with the confines ofmarriage very well, Henry,
you've clearly, you've got, gota problem.
she wrote an expose on Henry andthen.
So she covered that in hernewspaper because she owns a
newspaper and that actually ledthe reverend to go on trial for
(31:38):
adultery So he actually got hiscomeuppance.
I know I can't believe it.
On the flip side, it also ledactually to Victoria's demise.
It just makes me wonder wherethis, I mean, she had the
showmanship.
She could get people'sattention.
She had the ability to speak.
She had the money to back her.
She doesn't.
It reminds me a bit of, Jingxi.
(32:01):
Jingxi who did have thatpolitical mouse to know who to
put pressure on and how to usethe information that she has,
how to use these views to herown advantage and to be a
winner.
Victoria seems maybe a bitoverly sort of scattershot and
maybe too busy and tooenthusiastic and not considerate
(32:23):
enough and not strategic enough.
I would agree.
I think that's really important.
But I do think when you're in a.
a childhood where you're alwaysmoving, always on to the next
thing, always just getting,you're not thinking 10 steps
ahead, you're not thinking whatam I going to have for dinner
next week, you're just, you'rethinking next meal.
And I think that is a themethroughout her life, it's just
(32:46):
lurching, just gotta fix thatproblem, gotta fix that problem,
you know, rather than long termthinking.
So yeah, I'd agree.
It's a shame because she'sobviously a woman of like
extraordinary ability.
and go getter vibes, like theaction that she is taking is
like, you know, it'sunstoppable, isn't it?
Yeah, it's extraordinary to dothis.
(33:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Victoria Tenney and herhusband were all arrested on
charges of obscenity because thestory that she had published,
was so detailed, it was classedin legal terms as offensive.
it was illegal to send immoralcontent through the mail.
Who knew?
Who knew that was a law?
(33:28):
You can't send this through thepost.
The courts eventually did acquitall of them on a technicality,
but this was after beingimprisoned for six months.
Those six months, that's herpresidential campaign,
basically.
So she was like out of actionfor the whole thing.
she actually spent election dayin her jail cell, which is not
(33:48):
the place you want to be.
So her move for presidency wasofficially over.
She and her husband paid half amillion dollars in bail and they
eventually went bankrupt.
They actually divorced.
It's a lot of stress in 1876.
This was the same year shestopped publicizing, Woodhull
and Claffam's Weekly, so thepaper.
(34:10):
1876, so she's 36, well 38 atthis point.
I know, it's a lot in a shortamount of time, isn't it?
It's crazy.
The case had also negativelyaffected Victoria's reputation
with the suffragette movement.
So, like I said before, theywere, they just about accepted
her.
(34:30):
But then it was like, Oh no,you've done this now.
So they flipped back.
I imagine she sounds like shewas just always on the outside,
always like fighting to get in,fighting for acceptance.
Yeah, I think she was just tooradical for the time, I think.
She went in, like you said, allguns blazing, like it was all or
nothing kind of thing.
Victoria did continue to givelectures to the public and focus
(34:52):
on women's rights withinmarriage.
Victoria and Tennessee, it'sreally cute that she stuck with
her sister.
They eventually retired inEngland in 1877.
Victoria managed to build acareer as a lecturer.
she got married again, which iscrazy.
So a guy called, John BiddulphMartin, They married in 1883.
(35:16):
She continued, weirdly, to usethe name Woodhull, which was her
name from her first marriage ofher rubbish husband.
but she added Martin on the end,so it became Victoria Woodhull
Martin.
as she got older, her, her viewsgrew less, polarizing.
She was very active in thesuffragette movement in Great
Britain.
(35:38):
She continued to write, so shemust have enjoyed these things.
So she continued to write for anewspaper that focused on equals
rights.
It was called the Humanitarian.
And she had been known to, I wastalking to Cara about this
earlier, she had been known tofocus on eugenics.
which makes me feel a little bitawkward, but you know, that's
not undo, undo all the actionsshe's taken.
(36:01):
She also did lots of differentpublications as well, and her
and her sister actually becameknown in social circles in
Britain, for their work forphilanthropy.
So, she was always for society,I think, in whatever she was
doing.
It was always to try and movesociety on, which I really
enjoyed.
She died on the 9th of June,1927.
She was 88.
(36:23):
Um, but I do think she's a She'ssuch a crazy example of so many
things.
So, for example, you can havemultiple careers.
she went from fortune teller tostockbroker to journalist, to a
lecturer, quite a lot of careersin a short amount of time.
you don't have to have a formal.
education to be able to thrive,and I think that's even more
(36:45):
true in today's society.
And she stuck to her valuespretty much consistently all the
way through.
And I think, yeah, good for you,girl.
She got a lot of heat for them.
She did.
She got a lot of flack for that,but sort of stuck to it
throughout.
I mean, the story is completelyabsurd.
The whole thing, the whole thingis insane.
(37:08):
It's just turbulence throughout,isn't it?
Yeah, turbulence throughout,love that, yeah.
Blinkin heck.
She has so much energy for itall.
It's the snake oil.
That's what it is, yeah.
Turns all really a story of thepower of snake oil?
All that time, and it did work.
It did work.
Yeah, so that is the story ofVictoria Woodhall and her many,
(37:28):
many, many lives.
yeah.
She's quite cool, right?
Yeah, she feels like a rightwoman, wrong time sort of thing.
I'd love to know how that energywould work out today.
Well, it's interesting listeningto it because it is resonant.
Of women like Kamala Harris whohave put themselves out there
(37:53):
and tried to move the ball downthe pitch only to have those ad
hominem attacks and you mustcome to a point where you either
have to give up what you believein.
(38:14):
It's, it's incredibly complexeven now and how much of her
story is still relevant today isscary, isn't it?
Yeah, it's It's, it's dismaying,and it doesn't you don't
necessarily see the impact ofthat sort of linearly, In
exactly the areas that she is,but just the fact that she's
gone out with this courage andtaken this flack maybe gives
(38:35):
other people the confidence todo things in totally different
or more personal aspects oftheir life.
And the money.
I mean, that practical thing ofsetting up a stock brokerage for
women.
And financially empoweringwidows to make their own
choices.
That's absolutely incredible.
Really practical.
(38:57):
So, yeah.
Well, thank you for listening,guys.
It's been an audience, Cara.
Thanks.
It's been great.
This is like a VIP version oflistening to the podcast.
I'm very excited.
We still expect your download onthat kind of live.
Oh, absolutely.
(39:19):
No problem.
Well, thanks for joining us,everyone.
Thanks for joining us, Cara.
She changed history.
Remember to like, rate,subscribe, check out our
socials.
We are doing a shout out ifyou've got any, suggested
subjects for us.
Or if you've just got a reallycool story to tell about any
(39:40):
woman at any time.
you know, they don't have tohave changed history, quote
unquote, just someone who'spretty kick ass.
Please share, and then we'll doa listening episode at some
point.
That'll be really cool.
I learned over Christmas areally badass fact about my
grandmother, and it's thatshowmanship thing.
She was a lovely, very humblewoman.
(40:00):
And my mom was saying that whenmy brother was about 16, he got
an electronic keyboard forChristmas And, he was fooling
around with it.
And grandma said something like,Oh, maybe I could try.
And my mom said to her, I didn'tknow that you could play.
And she said, Oh yeah, I canplay a bit.
And mom said, well, what willyou play?
And my grandmother said, what doyou want to hear?
(40:24):
And absolutely sat there andflawlessly two hand proper
played anything they cared toname.
That's incredible.
My mom's like in her 50s at thispoint.
My grandmother never ever let onthat she had that ability.
And I thought you've been like,that's been in your life the
whole time.
(40:45):
An absolute smasher.
I loved it.
Not a show woman like not ashowy person, but she had that
going on I'm like, that isamazing playing by ear is such a
skill.
Anyway, can you imagine?
Yeah Absolutely incredible.
Maybe not quite what you'relooking for, but it's a grandma
(41:12):
Well, thanks everyone and we'llcatch you next time
That's why it takes us four hours to record a
20 minute episode.
You actually only get 20 minutesof usable material.
I understand.
I've known you a while now.
I'm unsurprised.
I also didn't get the, um, thecostume memo from either of you.
flannel shirts.
Yeah, I'm pretty much from Julytill like May the 3rd.
(00:30):
It's flannel, flannel season.
There's like two weeks ofsummery dresses.
But other than that, it'sflannel season.
And Simon obviously is part ofthe same tribe.
Love it, love it, love it, loveit.
I'll take note.
Nice.
do you want to go?
Shall we go?
Cool.
Hi, Vicky.
(00:51):
Hi, Simon.
How are you?
Yeah, very well, thanks.
How are you doing?
I'm good, thank you.
Good, good.
We, we've been invaded.
We have, yeah.
The American invasion of 2025.
Get the year rolling.
Oh, well, the first Americaninvasion of 2025.
Let's leave, let's leave it opento what may come.
Oh, you might recognize Kara'svoice from our, trailer.
(01:13):
Very kindly did a bit ofvoiceover for us.
You were the, filthy seductresswho did a few lines for us on
that.
Now you being here, there's twopieces of news really.
One is, I'm having a baby.
With my wife, and I'm the dad,yeah.
So that's cool, and I suspectthat's going to take up a bit of
(01:34):
time.
So whilst I'm busy learning howto keep a child alive, Cara's
going to step in and do a fewepisodes in my absence.
And so joining us today, just toLearn the ropes.
Yeah, just a gentle introductionwe were thinking rather than
dropping you in the deep end.
So it's so lovely to have youhere.
Thank you very much.
Long time listener, first timevisitor, so I appreciate it.
(01:58):
Love it.
I've got a story for you today.
You ready?
cool.
So this is about a lady calledVictoria Woodhall.
I've got a little intro here.
From fortune teller to WallStreet tycoon, presidential
candidate to scandalous headlinemaker, Victoria defied every
(02:18):
expectation of Victorianwomanhood.
Born into poverty, escaping anabusive marriage, she became a
champion of free love, afinancial powerhouse, and the
first woman to run for thePresident of the United States.
This is the unbelievable storyof Victoria Woodhull.
I thought you were going tobring us something impressive
(02:39):
this week, Vicky.
it says in there that this is anunbelievable story and it is,
that's how I felt like when Iwas researching it.
I was like, there's no waySimon's going to believe this.
Like there's just no way that'sgoing to happen at all.
And then, because we've got anactual American with us today as
well, it's kind of allserendipitous kind of come
together, We've got some sourcestoday, I've leaned on a couple
(03:02):
of articles, womenshistory.
org, there's a new site callednyhistory.
org, a Times article which wasreally useful, and there was a
blog post called Victoria forPresident, and then a couple of
Wikipedia articles as well.
Have you, Cara, have you heardof Victoria Woodhull?
No, but I am broadly ignorant,so don't let that be any
(03:23):
indication.
I just wondered, because it'slike the first female, you know,
you can see that being.
I know, you would think, youwould think that I should know
all about this, but, no, I meantlike the system, I meant like
the education system, maybe itno, this is, it's always a
mystery to me whether myignorance is my own or whether
it is actually, baked in, to theeducational system and maybe
(03:43):
both.
Maybe it's a mix.
Okay.
Well, hopefully this will befun.
So, Victoria was born in Homer,Ohio on the 23rd of September,
1838.
So we're right back in ourcomfort zone in Victorian times.
She has parents called ReubenBookman, Cleflin, and Roxanna
Hummel.
Roxanna went by Roxy.
(04:05):
She was number seven out of tenchildren, which we're learning
is quite normal, isn't it?
Like to have, Lots of children.
her childhood kind of was sotricky and turbulent.
It's really fascinating Herparents were unmarried which
today fine back then big dealand then probably the biggest
(04:29):
turning point in her childhoodwas that her family was forced
to leave their hometown underthe suspicion of That her father
had purposely burned down themill he owned for an insurance
payout because it had bad rot.
So, they got that reputation, asthat family in the town.
Ostracised, their name went overa month.
(04:51):
Ostracised, there you go, yeah.
Also, did they not have shotgunweddings back then?
It's like, normally if you getpregnant you just, quick, get
married in a month.
They made it through seven kids.
I don't know if it was maybe amoney thing because you have to
pay to get married and then, weare on like the poverty line
here.
So, she was known to starve as achild.
(05:12):
Her father was abusive.
They lost siblings because theirhealth was so bad.
Victoria actually spent herearly years.
So after the whole burning downthe mill situation, they went.
on the run, in a way, soactually they joined a traveling
show, and She and her sisterswould tell fortunes so they were
working at such a young age andselling homemade medicines.
(05:38):
Her dad was what was known as asnake oil salesman.
do you know anything about snakeoil?
Only from, that Simpsons episodewhere Homer and his dad sell
this, male potency thing.
The Simpsons are very good atpredicting so maybe they were,
maybe they were right, so snakeoil is such a fascinating, I'd
(06:00):
encourage people to go andresearch it because It's wild,
it's completely insane.
So basically they'd just takeany old oil they could find,
stick loads of spices and herbs,sometimes just some compounds,
some sand or something in there,and then they would sell it.
An overpriced rate.
And then, um, it's basicallyfraud because then you'd say,
(06:20):
This is this magic medicine andit will do all these magical
things.
And her dad did that for Aliving, right?
Like, that's how he earnedmoney.
Wow.
Like an early precursor to goop.
Precursor to what?
Goop.
Oh, goop, the, which one's that?
Oh, Gwyneth Paltrow.
That's it, yay.
We should cut that out, I don'twant to get sued.
(06:40):
Yes, that's all perfectlylegitimate.
She's got so many lawyers.
Those crystal eggs areabsolutely life changing.
Um, so this went on snake oiluntil 1906 when under the pure
food and drug act.
that was when that came in andthen you could end up facing
federal prosecution for fraud.
(07:02):
So actually we're in early1800s, 1840s around that time.
there was nothing stopping.
There's a really interestingepisode on snake oil, by the
podcast called MaintenancePhase, and its impacts on the
health industry and how it'smanifested in today.
If you really, you know, Ithought it was really
interesting.
So definitely go and researchthat.
(07:24):
because of all this poorVictoria, she didn't get much
education.
I think over time she had aboutthree years worth of schooling
at a local church school, so shewasn't necessarily educated
either.
And to be honest, she had a loton.
She had lots of fortunes to do,lots of traveling because she's
part of a traveling show.
and then again, not unusuallyfor the time she was married at
(07:47):
15, to a guide called CanningWoodhull.
And ironically, he was a doctor.
So there's her dad sellingmedicine.
He must have been considerablyolder than her unless people
were also becoming doctors atage 15 in those times.
Great point.
So he's a little bit older.
(08:08):
Yeah.
So it's her.
It turns out Canning was a lotlike her father because, he sold
patent medicines rather thansnake oil with staphine, and he
presented himself as a doctor,but there were no exams needed.
You didn't need a license to bea doctor back then.
It was very easy to pretend tobe an expert, right?
(08:30):
unfortunately, he was very muchlike her father.
Her married life wasn't reallyany better than what she'd grown
up with.
He was an alcoholic and he wasphysically abusive.
He cheated on Victoria manytimes and he failed to support
the family financially as well.
Because, you know, being a linedoctor, I don't think is that,
(08:52):
that fruitful.
It's not sort of lucrative inthe long term, is it?
There's only so many times, youcan be like, I found this thing.
Trust me, it works.
You know, so, they did have twochildren.
They had a son called Byron anda daughter called Zulu.
Byron actually had anintellectual disability, which
Victoria put down to canning andhis drinking.
(09:12):
And, he wasn't fit physically tobe a dad.
Then Victoria does somethingvery interesting.
She divorces him in 1864.
Divorced women back then wereseen very much as outcasts of
society, it wasn't a goodreputation.
But she might, that might nothave bothered her because she
(09:34):
had that thing with the fraudand the burning down of the
mill.
So she's already been seen as anoutcast by society throughout
her whole childhood.
I suppose she's experienced theflip side of that, of having
unmarried parents as well.
So growing up she would haveseen that reaction that she
gets.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
And it's, she was also part of amovement called free love.
(09:56):
So she, became very activelyinvolved in the free love
movement.
Do you know what the free lovemovement is?
Not in the 1800s.
Great point.
So this is before hippies.
This is the generation and freelove was founded by a utopian
socialist and philosopher JohnHumphrey noise.
(10:17):
he came up with the term freelove in 1848.
so very similar kind oftimeframe.
He's also known for starting aswingers community in upstate
New York.
That's where I was born.
Wow, who knew?
Yeah, they have a thrivingswingers community, who knew?
(10:38):
that seems like a risky time,because like the 60s, like, free
love, hippie, that sort ofsexual revolution in the 60s,
coincided with birth control.
Right.
So this movement of free lovewas a reaction to the industrial
revolution and that emphasis oncapitalism.
So they were like, this is greedorientated.
(11:00):
This is, not the right values.
We want these kinds of values.
Therefore one of the.
Values of free love is youshould only stay with someone in
a relationship if you werehappy, not for mutual gain.
So she didn't want to stay inher relationship with Canning
because she wasn't happy.
So that's what she did.
it was born out of a reaction toearly stage capitalism and as
(11:26):
three people in late stagecapitalism, maybe we should
learn something from that, Idon't know.
So, Victoria then divorces.
She actually finds herself ahusband.
He's actually quite cool.
he's part of these free lovemovements.
This is after, the Civil War.
his name is Colonel James HarveyBlood.
(11:47):
What a name.
And there's no official recordof them being married, but
they've both said, that they gotmarried in 1866, but we can't
really find anything there'ssomething slightly contradictory
about being in a free lovemovement and getting married.
Well, maybe they did air quotesmarriage, you know what I mean?
or like A commitment, what do wecall it, like humanitarian
(12:10):
marriage, where it's notnecessarily in a church or
anything, it's, you know, twohumans saying, I like you a lot.
so they, as a couple, moved toNew York City.
They take Victoria's sisterTennessee with them in 1868.
Tennessee has a nickname calledTenny.
So if you hear Tenny, that's whoit is.
(12:30):
Great nickname.
I know.
So cute.
It's like Agatha and Taggy.
I love that, I think that'sadorable, it's very sweet.
I like the tagging, that's nice,yeah.
Yeah! Victoria then started asalon.
Now salons also aren't what theyare today.
This was basically a space, likea club where you gathered and
(12:52):
chatted about different topicsand kind of influences on you at
the time.
So it's not a hair salon, it'sjust like a social kind of club.
it's very much in my head when Iread that I was like, oh, it's
like Twitter.
Like, it's like Twitter.
It's way nicer than Twitter.
Yeah, like.
In the good old days of Twitter,yeah, Doing this salon work, she
(13:12):
met many influential NewYorkers, and was very well known
as a, conversationalist.
She's, like, very good at workin a room, and, it's a talent,
right?
And I bet that's from travelingwith the, they're not circuses
though, but what would you callthat?
Like a traveling side show sortof side show.
Yeah, kind of thing.
(13:33):
I bet that's where she got thoseskills from.
Yeah, I mean, being a fortuneteller, you've got to be able to
talk a lot without much to goon.
That's so true.
Yeah, you've got pull of thosestrings.
Yeah, So, Victorian Tennesseecontinued doing spiritual
advisory work, is what they'recalling it now, so spiritual
advisors.
(13:54):
One of their clients wasactually a recently widowed
millionaire, because now she'sgot this massive network,
because she's doing this salon.
this millionaire was calledCornelius Vanderbilt, which is
also a great Sounds like avillain to me.
That sounds like yeah They wereif it's the same Vanderbilt's
(14:15):
how many can there be?
They had massive estates.
I know of them from Rhode Islandbecause one of the great
mansions was a Vanderbiltproperty.
I'm sure of it Yeah.
He's definitely, cemented inAmerican history.
I think I've heard them on somesort of podcast about railways
as sort of most big families ofthat time started in railways.
(14:37):
Of course.
Yeah.
Cause it's industrialrevolution.
Right.
so they allegedly helpedCornelius contact his dead wife.
So that's, he really valuedthem.
He was like, oh my gosh, you'vehelped me do this.
They also advised him onfinancial decisions and he also
taught them a lot of financialeducation as well.
So they just basically connectedand they learned how to invest
(15:00):
from Cornelius.
it really helped that Corneliushad a crush on Tenny.
he really fancied her.
his little pet name for her wasLittle Sparrow, and he actually
ended up proposing to Tenny aswell.
Tenny called him Old Boy, whichis not as nice, and politely
(15:22):
declined his proposal, she said.
Little Sparrow.
Tenterhooks.
Yes, Sweaty Pigeon.
Absolutely.
Predatory hawk.
I know, because the age gapwould be strong, maybe that's
the thing, isn't it?
A bit of niche Vanderbilt triviafor you.
Mm hmm.
At the end of the 19th century,Blenheim Palace was saved by
(15:45):
ruins from funds gained from theVanderbilts.
Oh my gosh, I love BlenheimPalace, it's amazing.
Wow.
Thank you.
so they've got Cornelius onboard, Victoria believed that
financial success was the key toall women's independence, even
more so than the right to vote.
(16:05):
So what did she do?
It then goes into a really tighttimeline.
So the next four or five years,a lot happened.
So Victoria took all thatknowledge she'd got from
Cornelius and she actually tookaction.
In 1869, there was a panic thatcrashed the gold market.
What Victoria chose to do wasjust rock up, rock up to, Wall
(16:28):
Street and set up a carriageoutside the gold exchange, then
offered advice that she'd takenfrom Cornelius, and then bought
deflated stocks during the paniccrash of the gold market.
She made 700, 000.
Wow.
from her little carriage outsideand buying stocks.
(16:48):
Cornelius was like, I like this.
I like this a lot.
I like what you're thinking.
And he helped them set up astock brokerage firm called
Woodhull, Claffin and Company,which then opened the next year
in 1870.
This stock brokerage firm was Iknow.
Um, and even, even better, Ithink, was that it was
(17:10):
exclusively for female clients.
So they really niched down onthis market.
Only females were allowed to goto this brokerage.
So we've had other stories, fromaround this time where women
weren't even allowed to startcompanies.
It had to be done in theirhusband's name and all their
assets belonged to theirhusband.
Did they have to, did they haveto get sneaky to set this up?
(17:30):
Not necessarily.
I think their clientele were, tobe honest, widows, like
widowhood, because we knowthat's a really, good way to
protect your money.
And also, you know, women didget pocket money as well, and I
think maybe husbands assumedthey were going to spend it on
dresses, and actually this was adifferent way of protecting it.
So, they targeted women, Whowanted to protect their money
(17:54):
and invest it and no one wouldtake them seriously So they you
know, they'd maybe approachbrokerages in the past and were
turned away There's even a signin the window that stated
gentlemen will state theirbusiness and then retire at once
My mum's got the same sign onher front door Quite right.
(18:16):
Absolutely.
Basically they made a splash inthe headlines of having women
on, on Wall Street, women in thestock exchange, women buying
gold, and that novelty kind ofwore off a little bit, and
people just thought it was maybea fad, but actually they
continue to make good money,this company, they continue to
make really good decisions, andthey actually ended up earning
other brokers respect in theindustry.
(18:38):
They were actually known as theQueen of Finance.
So that was Tenny and Victoria'snickname.
That's wicked.
And so often in these companies,you have, like, they start off,
women can't possibly do this, orthey're not allowed to, or how
on earth can a woman ride ahorse?
That sort of thing.
And then it comes along and,they kick ass and prove that, in
(18:58):
fact, it can happen.
And this, like, action seems tobe what changes Grudland merely
protesting or advocating it.
They're getting out there, doingit, proving these people wrong.
I know.
I feel like we should be doingthat.
But, you know, that's the thing.
Internal pressure, but like, um,it's really, it's really,
interesting that they, theyweren't just that a hot flash in
(19:20):
the pan, they didn't want to bethat they wanted to be continued
success, which is really cool.
So they had a decent business.
It wasn't just propaganda andsnake oil underneath it.
Well, I'd remember the reallytight timeline we're talking
about here.
So, the next bit is three monthsafter they started their
business, they used theirprofit.
So they're profitable threemonths in, and then they
(19:42):
actually launched a newspapercalled Woodhall and Clathvin
Weekly.
This newspaper was, again, themtaking action, just what you
were saying, them wanting to bepart of something bigger.
And they published articles,including Arguing for equal
treatment of women, giving womenthe right to vote, reforming
labor practices, legalizingprostitution.
(20:04):
So this is again, those freelove values coming through.
They wanted a reform on dresscodes.
They spoke about sex education,which was completely taboo at
the time.
They spoke about their spiritualbackgrounds, um, vegetarianism.
They were even like, maybe youshould do it, that's neat.
Yeah, and all this wasunderpinned by those values of
(20:25):
free love that we spoke aboutearlier, about, kind of pushing
back a little bit on capitalismand actually, love is love,
we're all, everyone's welcome,kind of thing.
This is, I can't necessarilycomment on the free love.
side of it, but that's such acontemporary set of topics for a
magazine.
And I mean, you think even thesedays, like, what's the Daily
Mail supplement?
(20:45):
Female or something.
You get a female specificsupplement in the paper that's
purely about, here's a goodplace to buy a dress that a
celebrity wore, and here's ameal you can cook for your
husband.
But to have a magazine that'sactually going out and tackling
these issues.
they're not easy issues either,like legalising prostitution and
sex education.
(21:06):
And vegetarianism, that's likethe three big hitters to tick
off, isn't it?
Bloody hell, Jesus! But they,again, they did this off their
own back, which was fascinating.
They had a writer who wrote alot for each issue called
Stephen Pearl Andrews, who was,the promoter of, a new, another
(21:27):
social system called Pantrarchy.
P A N T A R C Y.
C H Y, which was a theoryrejecting conventional marriage
and advocating for free love,combined with the communal
management of children andpoverty.
So it takes a village that kindof vibe.
Proper hippie stuff.
(21:48):
Really strong.
they did get criticism.
you don't want to go and usethat brokerage because they
believe in this.
so their reputation, nottarnished by this, but that they
linked the two up and they didhave their critics because it
was so radical, I guess,compared to what had come
before.
Really out of that sort ofconservative Victorian times.
(22:09):
Yes, you've got, this isVictorian, think of like
Victorian dresses and stuff likethat, crazy.
Yeah.
we know that Woodhull obviouslysupported these views, she
actually was also invited towrite a series of articles for
the New York Herald off the backof her Stop Break of Fame
exploring these topics.
(22:30):
So she's got two publicationsnow that she's contributing to,
which is insane.
And that was the thing that kindof drop fed her to be like,
actually, there's enough here tomake a paper.
So she was really involved init.
It wasn't just a, here's anidea, you go and do it.
She was very much on the groundwith it all.
so this kind of gives us aninsight into who Victoria is.
(22:51):
I think it's quite clear that,she, these values of where she
came from.
And now she's got success andshe's got money on top of all of
that.
what happens to people with.
The really strong values andthen suddenly come into a lot of
money.
Politics.
Damn right, politics comes aknocking.
(23:12):
All via social network.
Yeah.
And then rename it.
So you're right.
So Wall Street and White Houseobviously have a really close
link.
Secretary of State, Secretary ofTreasury, and she had
infiltrated both of these arenasusing her, salon and her
(23:35):
influence and her networking.
These are quite historicallymale.
areas.
But Woodhall wanted to changethat.
So she was known to give fieryspeeches.
a lot of those covered women'ssuffragette.
Notably in 1871, she did aspeech in the U.
S.
House of Representatives.
(23:56):
that speech was so well receivedthat it got her accepted by
suffragettes leaders, who then.
We're like, oh actually thiswoman's something, there's
something with her, it's notjust the flash in the pan of the
brokerage, it's not just this,the stuff she writes in the
papers, she's actually got solidviews here.
It seems like, all these thingsthat happened in her childhood,
(24:17):
inadvertently sort of trainingher up for this moment, because
I guess from her, like herparents and the way they were
ostracized, that must haveshaped her social views in some
way in being the child ofunmarried parents, and then
having this sort of ability forrhetoric and conversation from
her traveling sideshow skills.
(24:38):
And then the money as well.
And then the network from thesalon.
You need all of these really.
There are lots of rich peoplewho would be terrible
politicians.
And there are lots of people whocan speak well who don't have
the money to get into it.
But somehow it's just all, thishas all come together for her,
isn't it?
Yeah, politics leans towardspeople who can hold an audience,
who are happy to perform like astunt or two, and she, because
(25:02):
she is a performer, remember,like you were saying, she knows
how to keep people on theirtoes.
And Because of these speeches,she was now doing that in a
political setting.
There was lots of crowds aroundher when she went to the ballot
boxes because one of herarguments was, if you read
carefully, if you actuallylooked at the 14th and 15th
amendment, you'd find that itguarantees the protection of the
(25:24):
right of all citizens.
That was the wording, right?
So she was like, well, I'm acitizen.
Well, I should be able to vote.
And then she called this raucousat the ballot boxes, claiming
that the 14th Amendment actuallyAnd to be honest, her logic was
sound.
Like, yeah, she wasn't wrong.
She caused a stunt off the backof that.
(25:45):
So there was like paper articlesabout this rule because that she
caused at the ballot boxes andpeople are being like, look,
look, there's a woman.
Oh my God.
So that was her view on theright to vote.
Yeah.
I mean, fact doesn't count somuch if you can't get any
attention on it.
So yeah, for sure.
so you can see by this point,like she's making friends with
suffragettes.
She's got a little bit of famebehind her.
(26:05):
She's got this money behind her.
This all leads to, in 1971,Victoria announcing that she's
going to run for president forthe new United States, even
though women didn't technicallyhave the right to vote.
to be fair, there wasn'tanything written down that it
was illegal for women to run foroffice.
Like, they hadn't evenconsidered that.
They hadn't even thought itwould be an option.
Such, such an unthinkable idea.
(26:30):
Yes, on another technicality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
On another technicality.
She's like, I got you.
I got you guys.
she became the official nomineeof the newly formed equal rights
party.
that party was like a bit of aspin off of the suffragette
movement.
And They even, selected a blackman as the running partner, so
(26:55):
as vice president.
his name is Frederick Douglass.
He wasn't active in thecampaign, but he is on the
ballot papers, you can see them.
This is an incredible sort ofmiddle finger to society of the
time, isn't it?
Can you imagine?
In absolutely everything.
This is absolute outrage.
It's every, but again, it'scrazy, isn't it?
(27:19):
Because having just been througha presidential election, those
things were still areas ofcontention, weren't they?
Oh yeah.
Like having a woman run, havinga black woman run, all that kind
of stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, don't think about it toomuch.
So, the Equals Rights Party hopeto use the nominations to
reunite the suffragettes withthe African American civil
(27:40):
rights activists because there'sthis argument that suffragettes
were for white women, you knowwhat I mean?
They were alienating,minorities.
Victoria in 1871 publicly spokeout about, against the
government of, because it wasjust men.
So she She was making all theseclaims and what do people do
(28:03):
when a woman rises to some sortof position of power and
influence?
Trying to shoot her down inevery way possible and make out
that she's a, I don't know, adirty slut or something.
100 percent they tear her down.
Enter So, um, she was attackedfor her belief in free love,
(28:24):
which, was epitomized by afamous political cartoonist,
Thomas Nast, who depictedVictoria as Satan's wife,
basically advocating free love.
Did I put this picture in yournotes?
If not, I'll show you it.
It's like a cartoon.
Yeah, with demon wings.
(28:45):
Yep.
So there's her in, um, reallyquite scary.
She's got like horns and wingsand a cloak.
With a little sign that says,free love.
And in the background, there'sactually a woman, you can see
there, who would rather than bewith Victoria in this free love
movement, would actually Rather,carry her drunk husband on her
(29:07):
back with two babies, and makeher own way, rather than being
associated, really, withVictoria and her.
And this is the classic thing ofjust sidestepping the issue,
isn't it?
We're not going to, it doesn'tmatter what your arguments are
or the validity of them, we'renot going to address any of
those.
not going to address thesecauses or concerns that you
have.
We're just going to undermineyou completely.
(29:28):
100 percent and she was attackedon all fronts for being a woman.
She wasn't even 35 years old.
So there was that problem.
There was the free love problem.
There was a, coming from yourbackground problem, she was
attacked all over the place, butshe was a fighter, so, you know,
that's not the end of the story,but in the background, her
troubles were starting to mount,so her ex husband reappeared and
(29:48):
took up residency with her,because she was doing well, and
this again provided morematerial for the press to attack
her on, basically the press hadlots of ammo.
religious groups also didn'tlike Victoria because of her
free love, um, philosophy,preachers were known to call her
unwieldly.
Is that it?
Unwildly.
Unwieldly.
Unwieldy?
Yes, there we go.
(30:09):
Unwieldy.
I've never described anyone asunwieldy before.
I would not feel comfortableusing that word in conversation.
I'm not gonna lie, I'd be like,nope.
She's essentially unwieldy witha wheelbarrow.
Well maybe that's what theywanted her to be, I don't know.
Um, one of her most vocalcritics was Reverend Harvey Ward
(30:33):
Beecher.
Now, Victoria, remember she rana newspaper, she is not, unknown
to go dig in for a story.
She just happened to find outthat Henry, Reverend Henry, was
cheating on his wife with amarried woman in the parish.
So, not only is he slammingVictoria for free love.
(30:55):
He's slamming another woman.
He's slamming her for free loveand having sex out of marriage.
You can't possibly do that.
But then, he's having sex out ofmarriage with a woman in his
parish.
That's why he was so angry aboutit.
He just wanted to deflect theattention away.
I would describe that as highlyunwieldy.
(31:16):
the hypocrisy was out of thisworld.
so Victoria was like, well,you're clearly not, you're not
coping with the confines ofmarriage very well, Henry,
you've clearly, you've got, gota problem.
she wrote an expose on Henry andthen.
So she covered that in hernewspaper because she owns a
newspaper and that actually ledthe reverend to go on trial for
(31:38):
adultery So he actually got hiscomeuppance.
I know I can't believe it.
On the flip side, it also ledactually to Victoria's demise.
It just makes me wonder wherethis, I mean, she had the
showmanship.
She could get people'sattention.
She had the ability to speak.
She had the money to back her.
She doesn't.
It reminds me a bit of, Jingxi.
(32:01):
Jingxi who did have thatpolitical mouse to know who to
put pressure on and how to usethe information that she has,
how to use these views to herown advantage and to be a
winner.
Victoria seems maybe a bitoverly sort of scattershot and
maybe too busy and tooenthusiastic and not considerate
(32:23):
enough and not strategic enough.
I would agree.
I think that's really important.
But I do think when you're in a.
a childhood where you're alwaysmoving, always on to the next
thing, always just getting,you're not thinking 10 steps
ahead, you're not thinking whatam I going to have for dinner
next week, you're just, you'rethinking next meal.
And I think that is a themethroughout her life, it's just
(32:46):
lurching, just gotta fix thatproblem, gotta fix that problem,
you know, rather than long termthinking.
So yeah, I'd agree.
It's a shame because she'sobviously a woman of like
extraordinary ability.
and go getter vibes, like theaction that she is taking is
like, you know, it'sunstoppable, isn't it?
Yeah, it's extraordinary to dothis.
(33:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Victoria Tenney and herhusband were all arrested on
charges of obscenity because thestory that she had published,
was so detailed, it was classedin legal terms as offensive.
it was illegal to send immoralcontent through the mail.
Who knew?
Who knew that was a law?
(33:28):
You can't send this through thepost.
The courts eventually did acquitall of them on a technicality,
but this was after beingimprisoned for six months.
Those six months, that's herpresidential campaign,
basically.
So she was like out of actionfor the whole thing.
she actually spent election dayin her jail cell, which is not
(33:48):
the place you want to be.
So her move for presidency wasofficially over.
She and her husband paid half amillion dollars in bail and they
eventually went bankrupt.
They actually divorced.
It's a lot of stress in 1876.
This was the same year shestopped publicizing, Woodhull
and Claffam's Weekly, so thepaper.
(34:10):
1876, so she's 36, well 38 atthis point.
I know, it's a lot in a shortamount of time, isn't it?
It's crazy.
The case had also negativelyaffected Victoria's reputation
with the suffragette movement.
So, like I said before, theywere, they just about accepted
her.
(34:30):
But then it was like, Oh no,you've done this now.
So they flipped back.
I imagine she sounds like shewas just always on the outside,
always like fighting to get in,fighting for acceptance.
Yeah, I think she was just tooradical for the time, I think.
She went in, like you said, allguns blazing, like it was all or
nothing kind of thing.
Victoria did continue to givelectures to the public and focus
(34:52):
on women's rights withinmarriage.
Victoria and Tennessee, it'sreally cute that she stuck with
her sister.
They eventually retired inEngland in 1877.
Victoria managed to build acareer as a lecturer.
she got married again, which iscrazy.
So a guy called, John BiddulphMartin, They married in 1883.
(35:16):
She continued, weirdly, to usethe name Woodhull, which was her
name from her first marriage ofher rubbish husband.
but she added Martin on the end,so it became Victoria Woodhull
Martin.
as she got older, her, her viewsgrew less, polarizing.
She was very active in thesuffragette movement in Great
Britain.
(35:38):
She continued to write, so shemust have enjoyed these things.
So she continued to write for anewspaper that focused on equals
rights.
It was called the Humanitarian.
And she had been known to, I wastalking to Cara about this
earlier, she had been known tofocus on eugenics.
which makes me feel a little bitawkward, but you know, that's
not undo, undo all the actionsshe's taken.
(36:01):
She also did lots of differentpublications as well, and her
and her sister actually becameknown in social circles in
Britain, for their work forphilanthropy.
So, she was always for society,I think, in whatever she was
doing.
It was always to try and movesociety on, which I really
enjoyed.
She died on the 9th of June,1927.
She was 88.
(36:23):
Um, but I do think she's a She'ssuch a crazy example of so many
things.
So, for example, you can havemultiple careers.
she went from fortune teller tostockbroker to journalist, to a
lecturer, quite a lot of careersin a short amount of time.
you don't have to have a formal.
education to be able to thrive,and I think that's even more
(36:45):
true in today's society.
And she stuck to her valuespretty much consistently all the
way through.
And I think, yeah, good for you,girl.
She got a lot of heat for them.
She did.
She got a lot of flack for that,but sort of stuck to it
throughout.
I mean, the story is completelyabsurd.
The whole thing, the whole thingis insane.
(37:08):
It's just turbulence throughout,isn't it?
Yeah, turbulence throughout,love that, yeah.
Blinkin heck.
She has so much energy for itall.
It's the snake oil.
That's what it is, yeah.
Turns all really a story of thepower of snake oil?
All that time, and it did work.
It did work.
Yeah, so that is the story ofVictoria Woodhall and her many,
(37:28):
many, many lives.
yeah.
She's quite cool, right?
Yeah, she feels like a rightwoman, wrong time sort of thing.
I'd love to know how that energywould work out today.
Well, it's interesting listeningto it because it is resonant.
Of women like Kamala Harris whohave put themselves out there
(37:53):
and tried to move the ball downthe pitch only to have those ad
hominem attacks and you mustcome to a point where you either
have to give up what you believein.
(38:14):
It's, it's incredibly complexeven now and how much of her
story is still relevant today isscary, isn't it?
Yeah, it's It's, it's dismaying,and it doesn't you don't
necessarily see the impact ofthat sort of linearly, In
exactly the areas that she is,but just the fact that she's
gone out with this courage andtaken this flack maybe gives
(38:35):
other people the confidence todo things in totally different
or more personal aspects oftheir life.
And the money.
I mean, that practical thing ofsetting up a stock brokerage for
women.
And financially empoweringwidows to make their own
choices.
That's absolutely incredible.
Really practical.
(38:57):
So, yeah.
Well, thank you for listening,guys.
It's been an audience, Cara.
Thanks.
It's been great.
This is like a VIP version oflistening to the podcast.
I'm very excited.
We still expect your download onthat kind of live.
Oh, absolutely.
(39:19):
No problem.
Well, thanks for joining us,everyone.
Thanks for joining us, Cara.
She changed history.
Remember to like, rate,subscribe, check out our
socials.
We are doing a shout out ifyou've got any, suggested
subjects for us.
Or if you've just got a reallycool story to tell about any
(39:40):
woman at any time.
you know, they don't have tohave changed history, quote
unquote, just someone who'spretty kick ass.
Please share, and then we'll doa listening episode at some
point.
That'll be really cool.
I learned over Christmas areally badass fact about my
grandmother, and it's thatshowmanship thing.
She was a lovely, very humblewoman.
(40:00):
And my mom was saying that whenmy brother was about 16, he got
an electronic keyboard forChristmas And, he was fooling
around with it.
And grandma said something like,Oh, maybe I could try.
And my mom said to her, I didn'tknow that you could play.
And she said, Oh yeah, I canplay a bit.
And mom said, well, what willyou play?
And my grandmother said, what doyou want to hear?
(40:24):
And absolutely sat there andflawlessly two hand proper
played anything they cared toname.
That's incredible.
My mom's like in her 50s at thispoint.
My grandmother never ever let onthat she had that ability.
And I thought you've been like,that's been in your life the
whole time.
(40:45):
An absolute smasher.
I loved it.
Not a show woman like not ashowy person, but she had that
going on I'm like, that isamazing playing by ear is such a
skill.
Anyway, can you imagine?
Yeah Absolutely incredible.
Maybe not quite what you'relooking for, but it's a grandma
(41:12):
Well, thanks everyone and we'llcatch you next time
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