June 30, 2025 • 45 mins
What if your company’s biggest growth opportunity isn’t in the numbers—but in your people?
Brian Payne shares how leadership, culture, and mindset are transforming the future of tax strategy.
Guest Information
Name: Brian Payne
Email: bpayne@engineeredadvisory.com
Website: https://engineeredtaxservices.com/
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-payne-b0576720
Summary
In this episode of the Slash Tax Podcast, host Heidi Henderson speaks with Brian Payne, the President and CFO of Engineered Tax Services. They discuss the importance of integrating human elements into finance and tax strategies, the challenges of navigating change in established companies, and the significance of company culture and values. Brian shares his journey, insights on leadership, and the necessity of understanding people in a remote work environment. The conversation emphasizes the mindset shift from viewing problems as obstacles to seeing them as opportunities for growth and innovation.
Takeaways
- Brian Payne emphasizes the importance of integrating human elements into finance.
- Company culture and values are critical for navigating change in established organizations.
- Leadership plays a vital role in guiding teams through transformation.
- Understanding people in a remote work environment enhances collaboration and productivity.
- Inspiration is a key differentiator in a technology-driven world.
- Breaking down silos within organizations can lead to exponential growth.
- Empowering staff fosters a culture of stewardship and accountability.
- Tax strategies should be viewed as tools for business growth and innovation.
- A mindset shift from problems to opportunities is essential for success.
- Creating a flourishing work environment leads to happier, more productive teams.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:32 Tax Strategies and Wealth Optimization
04:38 Navigating Change in Established Organizations
07:26 The Importance of People in Business
10:25 Creating a Culture of Growth and Innovation
13:35 The Role of Leadership in Transformation
16:37 Inspiration as a Business Differentiator
21:42 Breaking Down Silos for Collective Growth
29:24 Empowering Staff in a Remote Environment
34:19 Integrating Strategy with People-Centric Approaches
37:33 The Power of Perspective in Business
43:41 Creating a Culture of Joy and Fulfillment
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heidi (00:07):
Welcome to the SlashTax Podcast. So this podcast
specifically is aboutdiscovering legal tax strategies
and incentives, powerfulincentives for smart investing
insights for business owners andreal estate investors. So we
talk with a lot of CEOs, CFOs,CPAs, business owners, and
disruptors about how they'reachieving success, where that's
(00:30):
coming from, and how we can usethe tax strategy as or the tax
code as powerful incentives tohelp fund your business, fund
innovation, and help youcontinue to grow your wealth
instead of it being your numberone liability. Brian, welcome to
SlashTAS Podcast. I'm soexcited.
So first off introducing Brian.Brian Payne is actually now the
(00:51):
president and CFO of EngineeredTax Services, which we're so
excited to have him on board.He's been a breath of fresh air
for us at Engineered TaxServices. He is helping
reimagine how tax, finance, andstrategy can serve people, not
just profit. And it's such aninteresting perspective when we
think about finance.
(01:11):
So this is going to be a funconversation. His passion is
building ecosystems of trust andinnovation and human
flourishing, cultivatingcompanies and communities with
intentional love, and purpose.Again, who thinks of that in the
workspace? So whether it's taxstrategy or business building or
spiritual vision, his work'sabout creating rooted systems
(01:32):
and bridges of belonging andstructures where both people and
the organization both can thrivetogether. And so I am so
grateful for you being here.
And I love this conversationbecause I think a lot on my
podcast, I try to bring thehuman aspect to business and to
think about why, you know, wetalk about this with some of my
other guests. It's like, what isyour why? Or they'll say, what
(01:55):
is my passion? Because of whatis your because for why you do
things. So let's start first offwith your role at Engineered Tax
Services.
Talk a little bit about whatyou're doing and how you ended
up here.
Brian (02:07):
Okay, yeah, very cool. And thank you for having me. I'm
so excited too, this will befun. Yes. Gonna be fun.
I met Julio originally when Iwas working with Yucambe
Mutombo, and I'm actually goingto Atlanta, I'll be tomorrow. He
passed away last year, they'rehaving a service for him, so I'm
going be there tomorrow. And,you know, I always say in life,
(02:28):
there's brutal moments, but itdoes require intentionality
usually, but you can make themfruitful. And it was through
that brutal moment of losing himthat fruit came, and that's how
I ended up at ETS, and that'sthe fruitful part.
Heidi (02:44):
Wow.
Brian (02:45):
And it's been a blessing. So, last February is when I
began, and I came on just as theCFO. And then in July, I was
moved into the President and CFOrole, and absolutely loving it.
I really it's an honor,honestly, to be able to work
with you and our amazing team ofpeople. I'm loving it.
(03:07):
I'm absolutely loving it.
Heidi (03:09):
It's, I'm sure it's a different role. Talk a little
bit about your background andwhat you've been doing that led
you on this path to what you'redoing right now.
Brian (03:18):
Yeah, so I was always kind of in that finance
operations mindset and space. Iwas with Bank of America and
their corporate investmentcorporate treasury for years and
took the entrepreneurial plunge.Admittedly, everything I've
always done is, sorry, I'vealways catalyzed and served
(03:41):
others try and co create theirvision. That's what I love
doing. I love co creating.
And so, if you give me a vision,I want architect. And that's
probably where I differ frommost CFOs. A lot of CFOs are
more of a scorekeeper. Oh, thisis how we did. I think of it
(04:02):
more as an architect of cocreation.
And that's why I'm alwayslooking to bring the human
element into it. I call it thepragmatism of love, is what I'm
striving for, because you getwhat you pay for. And so, if I
can put together a financialmodel, compensation model,
incentivization plans, andthings of that nature that
(04:24):
actually pay you for doing thevery things that we want you to
do, you get it, right? Yeah. Andso, that's why I'm very
intentional about alwaysincorporating mission, vision,
values and things of that natureinto everything that I build
because I know as we grow as acompany, if I'm saying I want
(04:50):
this, but then I'm paying you todo that, I'm gonna get that.
Yep. So, classic ounce ofprevention's worth a pound of
cure. I put a lot of focus intothat architect and that planning
so that when we go and scale,we're growing towards our
mission vision values ratherthan away.
Heidi (05:10):
That leads me into maybe a difficult question. And you
and I've had this conversation.I'm like, I think it may be
easier to build a startupcompany from scratch and build
mission, vision, and values forsomething that you're building
from scratch or bringing peoplein and saying, this is what
we're having buy in for, here wego. At our company, we are
(05:31):
almost twenty five years old andwe are professional services.
And although we have alwaysloved and talked about the fact
that we are very innovative andJulio, our founder, is very
entrepreneurial, alwaysevolving, always growing, I love
his perspective, inherently youdo tend to have people in
(05:51):
cultures who tend to get stuckdoing what they've always done.
And we have had a tremendousamount of success over the last
twenty five years. And with thatsuccess, I think people do want
to fall into a path wherethey're like, yeah, this is what
we do. This works and we'regoing to keep doing that. And as
with all things and innovationin our world right now with AI
(06:13):
and technology, And I feel likea significant shift towards
authenticity and being real andhuman, which is one of my
favorite shifts in businesstoday. It's not always the
easiest thing, and not everybodyis that amenable to change and
to shift or innovation.
(06:34):
And so in that sense, what haveyou found to be some of the
struggles with working with acompany that's older and a
little bit more, structured inits ways versus where you want
to go. What is that mission,vision, vision, and values of
(06:55):
ETS and where you want to go?And then talk a little bit about
the struggles of what we'regoing through to get to that
point, because we're in themiddle of it, right?
Brian (07:04):
Yes, yeah, we are, it's fun. Yeah, last December we put
together our new mission,vision, and values. And I love
how we did it because ETS isalso part of a family with TGP
and IPA, and I love that weadopted the same mission, now
our how is different, right,different companies. And then
our vision and values, and weput people first, and that's our
(07:26):
first value, right? And it ismore difficult moving and
turning a ship that's large,right?
They talk about the largercompanies or whales, right?
Turning them around, it'ssometimes years. A startup, a
small company, it's a loteasier. A handful of people,
(07:48):
hey, do we like this? Yeah,let's go.
Yeah. We don't have that. We'renot a jet ski, we're more of a
large boat, right? And so, is alittle more I would say the word
that comes to mind is it's justa little more intensive, right?
And it does take longer.
(08:09):
The way I approach it is mostlyI focus on growth and molting.
Those are two concepts that Iuse a lot. And so right now at
ETS, I've been saying to for awhile now, we're molting, right?
A crab goes through 20 shells inits life. Eagles molt and get
(08:29):
new beaks and talons andfeathers.
And what happens is, when you'remolting as a company, you're
kind of leaving your old shellbehind. And that's always a
sticky situation because youstill have clients and people
you're serving. You can't justeradicate what you're doing or
you're going to drop the ball.But so you're leaving the shell
(08:51):
and you're stepping into the newone while you're also building
the new one. And inevitably whathappens is there are people who
look back at the old shelllongingly, right?
Heidi (09:02):
Yeah, sometimes it's tempting. I
Brian (09:05):
was comfortable over there. Knew what I was doing and
we knew it worked. We don't evenknow if this new shell is going
to work. And what's always themost difficult phase for me is
there's always a phase where wehaven't stepped into the new
shell with any efficacy yet. Andthen people start looking back
and they're technically right.
We were better back then, right?That's when you really have to
(09:29):
have the mental fortitude, andthat's why I also focus so much
on habits. Yeah. Aristotle said,Excellence is not an act, but a
habit. And that's why on theincentivization side, I'm always
trying to incentivize the habitsthat drive our people and our
teams to where we're going.
(09:50):
Because I talk about inertia alot, and a thing at rest stays
at rest. And when you were in acertain inertia where we always
do it this way, when I'm tryingto flip it, that's a bit of a
schlag, right? But once you kindof catch the rhythm and you
start to see it, you get intothat new shell or you get your
new feathers and beak, and thenyou see how it's working and how
(10:12):
much better it is. You're like,Oh, okay, this is pretty
awesome. It's getting people tothat.
That's always the most difficultpart. Also, with a larger
company, you will have someattrition. There are some people
who just aren't built for thenew shell and it's not bad. It's
not that we're right and they'rewrong or anything like that, but
it's, hey, we're going in a newdirection now, we're going into
(10:35):
a new shell. It may not be foreverybody, but it'll also
attract new people as well,right?
And so, that's why I focus a loton the tap root. Most people
focus when they're growing acompany, focus on the tree,
notably the crown, leaves andall that, The pretty part,
right? And I get that, but thetrunk and the taproot are really
(10:58):
where I tend to focus more. Andso that's where the culture and
that's where the mission visionvalues are so critical, because
that's your taproot, that's yourtrunk, that's the nutrients to
the rest of it, right? And so,we anticipated this year was
going to be a little difficult,particularly in the first half
because we're trying new things,we're building and stepping into
(11:19):
new things.
That's why I focus so much onour taproot and trunk. And that
to me is where the financialplanning and forecasting come
into play and also the culture.And so when you put a good
culture in with a good financialmodel, and tax strategies have a
(11:39):
vital component to that, manypeople tend to see a tax
strategy as, oh, at the end ofthe year, oh, we owe taxes,
crud. Alter prevention, pound acure, put that in before,
whether it's R and D taxcredits, 170, 90, whatever it
is, but build that into yourplan and build around it because
the IRS tax code actuallyrewards those who plan and are a
(12:00):
little more on the aggressiveside. And so, and innovative.
The
Heidi (12:06):
IRS is incentivizing risk and innovation. So those
companies that are willing totake a leap of faith is the way
I like to look at it, whetherthey're creating new products or
systems, or whether they areexpanding into new locations or
building new buildings andbuying into their business, that
is essentially what they'reincentivizing. It is those
(12:26):
companies who are putting theirneck out there and saying, we're
gonna take a leap of faith,we're gonna grow, invest and
innovate. And I love thatbecause too often the tax code
is looked as a big negative, butin fact, there are so many
opportunities there forbusinesses to help support their
success. So, yeah, I thinkthat's a huge.
Brian (12:48):
Yeah, I see it as the government is a little bit of
like a business partner. Hey,you want to innovate? You want
to try new things? Whateveryou're going after, we're here
to meet you halfway. Let's seehow we can make this better
together, right?
And most people don't view itthat way. And so, that's why I
try and put it all holisticallytogether at the forecasting side
(13:09):
of things combined with a strongculture. And then, the last
part, you have to have goodleadership too. Because when
people want to look back, like Iwas talking about, you have to
have people who are willing toput their neck out there a
little bit and say, Hey, I knowit was maybe more comfortable
back there, but we're movingahead. That's where your focus
(13:30):
is so critical, right?
And if you have good leaders,you have a good plan, and you
have a good culture, and youstart stepping into it, all of a
sudden it grows. And the first10% of it is always
Heidi (13:45):
a schlock.
Brian (13:47):
You're just like, kind of like, where's it going? You
don't even know yet, But thenyou start to see the fruits of
it. That's where I kind of Ilove the growth metaphor. I talk
in garden terms a lot, becausenow your new we're calling it
like ETS two point zero, itstarts to grow and bloom, and
it's not at the expense of thepast. It's not that the past
(14:09):
withers and dies, but it juststarts to blossom and grow
deeper, roots down and higherbecause you've integrated all of
this new technology, newculture, new services, all the
things that we're doing, and youput it together, and now you've
started to create a whole newforce that you were never even
thinking was possible a coupleof years ago.
Heidi (14:28):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because something
that was very unexpected withyou coming on board is you were
initially brought on as our CFO.And that was a big piece of
really looking at the finances,also at a time when we had set
some really dramatic goals forgrowth. So we are talking
significant revenue growthgoals, you know, looking at,
(14:50):
look, we want to scale. We wantto, you know, look at this
dramatic, huge, I mean, we'retalking five times growth in a
relatively short period of time.
And so you were brought on asCFO and I'm like, okay, we want
you to dive in as a piece ofthis. And as you shifted into
this role as president, onething that's been very
(15:10):
fascinating, and use thisexample, another client that we
recently met with, you know, ourteam was talking about meeting
with that CPA firm who actuallyhas an in house psychologist.
Brian (15:22):
Mhmm.
Heidi (15:22):
And I thought that was so fascinating. So not to call you
our in house psychologist, butBrian's kind of our in house
psychologist.
Brian (15:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Right.
Heidi (15:32):
But so often I mean, never in my career have I been
in a situation where we've hadsomeone on our team who is
working on helping our teams bebetter humans, understanding
what are your strengths as aperson, as an individual, as a
(15:52):
human being, how do you tap intothose? How do we tap into those?
Not only because understandingthose strengths and how those
contribute to the teamultimately make that person more
in line with where they're atintrinsically and what is more
fulfilling and satisfying. Soyou have happier people, you
have more fulfilled people wholove what they do, who are more
(16:14):
highly producing and work betteras a team, everybody elevates.
And it's such a beautiful modelthat I wholeheartedly believe
in, but that has not been ourfocus.
So again, Putting people firstis the first part of our
mission. And you have reallymade it a point to spend a
tremendous amount of time withour teams spread out all over
(16:36):
the country, traveling, spendingdays with people, having
meaningful human conversations.Why do you think that matters?
In the big scheme of things, weneed to grow our business. We
need to increase revenue.
It matters where the numbersare. Why does it matter to
understand who the people are onthe team?
Brian (16:54):
That's a wonderful question. I could opine on that
for hours, but I'll try and nothijack this entire The two
biggest things that I focus onin response to that are, one, I
see as I focus very much on thespiritual side of things, and if
(17:18):
you want to make that a littleless ethereal, it's really, I
just have, when I have a deeperunderstanding of how your mind
works and how you process, whatit gives me is, one, it gives me
your lens and perspective alittle bit. I'll never have it
fully, but I can start to seethe world through your eyes, and
particularly since we are remoteand you're out in Las Vegas and
(17:39):
I'm in West Palm, very far away.When you make a decision, when
you say a comment, when youwrite an email, I'm not sitting
there with no context, justlike, What in the world is Heidi
saying? Right?
I'm like, Oh, oh, I think shewas probably going this. And
then it's so funny, now thatI've gotten to know you better,
generally, I pontificate as towhere you were going with
(18:02):
something, I'm about 90%accurate. Right? You always give
me something that I didn'treally think about, but like,
like, okay, cool. And so, just,I call that attunement, right?
You have to be attuned. And so,that to me, the in person is us
tuning in. So, when we cometogether as an orchestra, we're
(18:23):
harmonious and we create asymphony, not just a cacophony
of noises, right? And then,also, I want each individual
very rooted because I seebusiness as a garden, we're just
growing, right? And I see usgrowing individually and
collectively, and then you startcross pollinating and that's
where it gets fun, right?
And I want, particularly at theleadership level, I want
(18:46):
everybody to be very comfortablein their own skin, is a common
phrase for it, but I want you tobe attuned to yourself as well
so that when you are buildingand co creating with me, I know
what you're planting and youknow what you're planting, and
you're planting good seeds andgood soil, right? And so, when
(19:08):
you have rooted individualscoming together as a collective
in an attuned way, and we're allplanting our own seeds
individually and collectively.The garden you start to grow
gets fun, you know, it'sbeautiful, actually. So, that's
why I hope that answered yourquestion.
Heidi (19:28):
So, then in that scenario, let's say in a perfect
world, you create thatenvironment, you create this
beautiful garden andeverything's flourishing and
it's being well watered and, youknow, it's got all the
nutrients. How does that affectthe bottom line in your opinion?
Why would it?
Brian (19:43):
Yeah, oh, absolutely it does. Yeah, because particularly
with technology getting so good,the biggest differentiator
between humans and technology,in my humble opinion, is
inspiration. And so, what I'venoticed is when you have people
inspired, and then comingtogether and combining their
(20:08):
inspiration, then going out andgrowing it. The crown of your
trees get beautiful, and that'skind of your top line, right?
And then, I don't do this in away where I'm just, like, willy
nilly spending and doingnonsensical things.
Stewardship is a big word for meon the finance side. I like to
(20:30):
focus on stewardship, and that'swhere, again, the tax code to me
is it's one of my arrows that Ihave to be a good steward,
right? And so really, if youhave a collective that is
inspired, attuned, and thenthat's why I like the habit of
excellence, right? And you havepeople being promoted for being
(20:54):
excellent. You will be effectiveat everything that you do
because you're inspired andyou're integrated.
Heidi (21:02):
Okay.
Brian (21:03):
And then you put that together with good technology
and good plans, your bottom linewill be exponentially better, in
my opinion, than if you have abunch of individuals just kind
of doing their own thing andthen you try and put an
exclamation point on it at theend of the year.
Heidi (21:19):
Yeah. Okay. So for listeners, it's one thing when
you've got a business orbusiness owner or entrepreneur
who is running their business,they are dictating what's
happening with their team,they're hiring the right people,
They're hoping that they'refocusing on that. And I think
that's almost easier than someof the scenarios I see where
(21:40):
we're dealing with organizationsthat have multiple partners. And
so in that situation, forexample, CPA firms, which we
work with a lot of CPA firms,one of the struggles in that
space is oftentimes you'll havea group of partners that are all
equal partners in thatorganization.
And I have seen in many casesover the years where these are
(22:03):
wonderful firms and they'redoing really well financially
successful, they're growing, butthey don't have the synergies.
They don't have a united vision.We see them oftentimes working
very siloed, almost working asif each of them has their own
business. They do things theirown way, oftentimes with their
downline teams. So you have alot of individualized processes,
(22:27):
and it works for them.
But as a collective, it doesn'tnecessarily work for the
collective. And when you see acompany like that with dramatic
growth goals, it typically doesnot support significant growth.
And we've seen that in manycases. And I've had many of my
clients ask me those questions.You know, what do we do?
How do we help facilitate anorganization where we can create
(22:49):
more of this collaboration? So aquestion I have for you is long
winded
Brian (22:53):
Yeah. Know.
Heidi (22:53):
Background. But a question I have for you is in an
organization like that, how canthey what, what are, what's
something that they could do,whether they hire someone or
consultants, or they look atsomething that could help them
come better in line andunderstand the value of that
synergy? Because I thinksometimes people think it's
(23:14):
fine. I want to do things my ownway. But in reality, I think
oftentimes we end up hurtingourselves by doing that.
And it's the opposite of what wethink. So anyway, back to my
question, what do you think thatorganizations like that could do
to focus more on this and whydoes it matter?
Brian (23:31):
Yeah, great question. So why it matters to me is the word
untapped is generally what I usefor those kinds of companies.
And it's very common. It'seasier to work in a silo. It is
easier.
Heidi (23:46):
Absolutely.
Brian (23:47):
But generally, in my experience, the easiest is
that's the path that takes youto nowhere. And so, if you want
to tap into I would look at theopportunity costs that you have
by staying in the silos. Yeah,it's easy and familiar, but
you're going to hit a plateau.And in my opinion, generally
(24:13):
speaking, the way to breakthrough those plateaus is
integration, it's synergizing,it's coming together as a team
and as a collective. You know,if you put a thousand EV
batteries together, it's not theoutput of a thousand EV
batteries, it's like equivalentto like a million or something,
It's like that exponential kindof growth.
Human minds and inspiration, Ithink do the same thing, right?
(24:34):
So if you have four partners allworking individually in four
silos, you're going to hit here.Bringing them together, I think
your upside becomes limitless,right? And that's where the
growth comes in.
Heidi (24:45):
One
Brian (24:46):
next step that I like to try and do is, one, I focus on,
I try and get people to absorbwithout understanding.
Heidi (24:59):
Okay, you need to explain that one more.
Brian (25:01):
Okay, because generally when you have four individuals
working in four silos, it'sbecause you have four different
mindsets, four different brains.They don't understand one
another. And most times whenpeople lack understanding, we
tend to judge or just say no.Right? It's like wall it off,
(25:22):
right?
Where I and I struggled withthis very much, so I have to be
intentional still. But thereason I say absorb without
understanding is I learned tojust kind of receive it and
don't judge it all. And Iactually get curious about it.
The first step that I alwaystake is I'll absorb and I'll
(25:46):
receive, and I try and find thehighest area of congruency,
Something that resonates, right?Going back to attunement, I'm
about resonation a lot.
So someone could say a bunch ofstuff and I'm like, I don't
agree with 95% of that, butthere's 5% where I get it, I'll
focus there. So I asked aquestion about that. Tell me a
(26:06):
little more about that, unpackthat. How do you use that? Now I
call it, we call it bridgebuilding, right?
Now you've kind of created abridge. Like, okay, that other
95%, I'm going to figure thatout later. But this 5% we can
bridge on. Now you've connected,you've integrated your minds in
a little bit. That one littlebridge of that 5% where you're
(26:28):
congruent, that's where you canstart to grow.
If you can just do that evenwith your four partners, do it
individually, and then also cometogether collectively, just find
one thing that you can connecton. Start there, and then watch
it blossom, And now, whathappens in my experience is that
(26:49):
95% that didn't make sense tome, as we're growing together,
now all of a sudden, I'm like, Imay not understand it, but it's
actually good having theirperspective and their mindset
because they ask questions andthey see things that I would
never ask nor see. And so, nowthey're giving me a new
perspective and a new lens thatI didn't have on my own. Yeah.
(27:10):
And so, now you're getting tosee things in new ways.
And that's where I thinkconnectivity is so fun, because
in a way, I'm very empathetic.In a way, when I get to work
with you and then work with Kimor Mike or anybody else on the
team, I try and actually startto see the opportunity or the
problem, whatever we're talkingabout, I try and see it through
(27:31):
their eyes a little bit, and Iget to see the world
differently, and it's kind offun. And when you put it all
together, now your blind spotsare greatly reduced.
Heidi (27:40):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the power of
unity and bringing all of thatenergy together in a collective
way is so much more powerful.And one of the, like I've said
it many times, but one of thephrases that of our partners was
using for a long time was, whatwas it? Rising tides raise all
boats.
Brian (28:00):
Yeah.
Heidi (28:01):
And, you know, at first I was like, that's a weird phrase.
But over time, it is so relevantand accurate. And so it's just
fascinating. It has been afascinating year because, again,
you were really brought on as aCFO and were like, let's look at
the numbers. Let's get ourfinancials in line.
Let's look at the bottom lineand what are our goals? How do
(28:22):
we drive revenue? And much ofthe focus has been on fixing our
relationships and buildingunderstanding. And what's coming
from it is renewed excitement.To your point, the molting can
be painful for some people, andwe've probably had more change
in our company this year withcertain people leaving and then
(28:44):
hiring new people and somechange.
But it's been really healthychange. And even that was done
mostly in a very positive waywhere it's so important to link
to what the what the mission,vision, and values are and
allowing people to come into aspace where they want to thrive
and then empowering them to dothat. What are your thoughts on
(29:07):
empowering staff? Especially,okay, we are a highly remote
company, so lots of remotepeople. There's always this
interesting back and forthbetween do we manage and oversee
or micromanage almost?
What are they doing? Are theyworking? How do we look at, at
(29:28):
productivity? How do we knowpeople are doing certain things?
Versus how do we inspire andencourage and elevate people to
want to make them exponentiallybetter?
Not just for the sake of thecompany, but as human beings,
because I believe most peoplethrive in that space of
overcoming challenges andlearning and growing and feeling
(29:49):
like they're contributing tosomething larger than
themselves. At least that's myphilosophy. Right. I love that.
Whether it's true or not.
But there are some people thatare not comfortable in that
space and they don't want to be,they don't want to take, I think
that ownership. So what do youthink is the most important
thing with empowering staff andthat balance between looking at
(30:10):
it again from a financialperspective of ROI, Are we
getting productivity? How areare people doing there versus
the human aspect of it? Becausewe wanna be human. We wanna
connect.
Everything wants to be lovelyand connected and and a big
happy family. But at the sametime, you have to look at the
bottom line and the numbersmatter. Right. Where is that
(30:30):
balance?
Brian (30:31):
So, I hope you don't get mad at me, but I would like to
wordsmith your inquiry a littlebit. I don't see things in
balance. When people ask meabout a work life balance, I
don't answer that question in abalanced way. I see things in
spirals. And you are right,right now, the focus has mostly
(30:55):
been more on the people, again,that taproot and trunk and kind
of bringing that in.
And it's also the soil, becauseI want to create a space where
people can feel seen and loved,and they can become who they are
rooted, and it flourishes there,right? Now, what's actually kind
of funny now, it doesn't alwayshappen this
Heidi (31:14):
way,
Brian (31:14):
but oftentimes a natural byproduct, particularly if you
are, as part of the culture, I'malways driving stewardship. We
are reinforcing efficiency. Andso, sometimes it's an ancillary
benefit, but what I also tend todo is the focus kind of shifts
(31:36):
as we grow. Right now, it's verymuch the soil, the roots, the
trunk is the focus, and numbersare a little more back burnered,
but I'm always monitoring, it'snot that I'm like avoiding them,
but as we grow and as our soilis good, that's when I start to
shift a little more into anumbers focus, we also start,
(31:59):
that's where accountabilitytends to augment as well.
Because anytime you're doingsomething new, you're gonna have
to iterate more.
We've never done some of thesethings. Some of the stuff we're
doing doesn't exist, right?Yeah. And so, we're creating
something that's never existedbefore. You're going to fail
forward on that, right?
Marines plan only 75% of amission. They leave 25% open for
(32:23):
variables that can just come. Ikind of see us in that phase of
things. As we've grown it and cocreated it, I always want to
keep doing new things, I don'twant to stagnate, But as that
kind of blossoms and you startto see it, that's when the
accountability and the numbersbecome a little more in focus,
because now we've built it, nowwe've created it, now we have to
(32:44):
make sure that we're stewardingit properly. And so, it's a
little bit of a phase approachin when I do that.
But to go back to your originalquestion of how you balance the
people and the numbers, if youingrain in the people a culture
of stewardship, the numbers tendto work, and then, you know,
(33:07):
last year we had to make somemoves, and we do some things to
make sure that the company isthriving and growing, and making
sure that the numbers are wherethey need to be, but I try and
do it in a way where the focusis more on the people driving
the numbers versus my numbersdriving what I do. I want the
people to catalyze.
Heidi (33:26):
Okay.
Brian (33:27):
And then that becomes kind of a spiral because what
you're doing is you're creatingan energy in your people that
foster growth and efficiency andstewardship. And so, your
numbers tend to look prettygood, right?
Heidi (33:43):
It's so interesting because it is such a out of the
box way of thinking philosophyas it relates to finance. Oh,
yeah. So it's it's it's beenvery refreshing. It's been a
complete shift from what we havefocused on as a company for
fifteen plus, twenty plus years.Before we kind of wrap this up,
(34:07):
being slash tax podcast, talk alittle bit about also
incorporating strategy andreally making sure that we're
also strategically looking, whenwe're empowering people, at
those opportunities andembracing those as it relates to
finance.
Brian (34:26):
Yeah, so on the strategy side of that, what I do is, one,
I'm always looking for thedifferent tools and
opportunities at my disposal.Tax is oftentimes never
considered a tool.
Heidi (34:40):
Never, exactly.
Brian (34:42):
But when I put our financial forecasts together, I
incorporate the tax strategiesinto it. And so, part of it is
when you're forecasting, be asholistic as possible. Don't
limit yourself just to, Hey,these are my line items. Take
(35:04):
the wider lens and look at allthe opportunities you can to
optimize the stewardship of whatyou're doing, right? And then
what I do from there is, as wego throughout the year, if
something starts to look alittle amiss or awry, or it's
not going according to the plan,that's where and this is where I
love the people part, again,kind of a spiral.
(35:24):
I'll go to them and say, Hey,this is not unfolding as we
anticipated. Tell me what'sgoing on here, and let's see
what's going to happen. And thenyou're in a much better position
to navigate it, and I like tocall it, you need to glean the
(35:46):
good. And sometimes it's noteven based on the people.
Sometimes it's a macro outsideof you.
Heidi (35:52):
Okay.
Brian (35:53):
Like this year, we woke up in January, and there was a
court case that impacted one ofour line pretty heavily.
Heidi (36:02):
Yep. That
Brian (36:04):
had nothing to do with us, But it negatively impacted
us pretty greatly, right? We cansit here and just get all bitter
about it, or we can cometogether and say, Hey, how do we
take this negative, this badthing that happened, and how do
we turn it into a positive? Howdo we glean the good out of it?
And when you get a culture andyou get a team of people,
(36:25):
they're not even seeing anythingas bad anymore. It's just an
opportunity, right?
I call problems opportunities inbusiness clothes, right? It's an
opportunity to get better, andyou keep doing that. And what
you do is you'll create a pulsewhere your people are growing
and thriving. They're comingtogether, they're taking on
challenging things. What we dois not easy.
(36:48):
Yeah. But we embrace thosechallenges and we come together
and we go out and no matter whathits us in the face, we take it
and we're like, okay, good.Here's how we're gonna take this
bad thing, glean the good out ofit, get better, learn lessons.
Now our company's thriving in awhole new way. I just want to do
(37:10):
that every day.
Heidi (37:12):
Okay, so I see a recurring theme that whether
we're looking at financialaspects and tax strategies,
we're prospectively looking athow we can reduce things or
increase the bottom line, orwe're looking at people or
problems or teams, it's reallyperspective. And I think what
your main focus is, is reallylooking again at opportunities.
(37:33):
And it's a mindset shift. It'schoosing to look at things as
positives and opportunities togrow. So as we wrap up, where
does that come from in you?
Brian (37:49):
That comes mostly from growing up and starting my
career in a world that wasn'treally built for me. It was
painful. It was very painful,honestly. And I felt very
unappreciated, unseen, andunloved. And I grew towards
bitter.
I almost got bitter, So,
Heidi (38:11):
I mean, that not only drives bitterness, but it is a
We're talking about gardens.It's a breeding ground for being
deflated.
Brian (38:24):
Yeah, toxicity. It's destructive. And so I kind of
licked my wounds and I was like,you know what? I'm going to
start building companies thatare good soil. That's really
where it came from.
Not even for me to judge whetheryou're a good plant or anything.
That's not it. I just want tocreate good soil so that when
(38:46):
you plant your seed, it canflourish. Now, I want that seed
to be congruent with the companyand all that, obviously. But
that's honestly where it camefrom.
I went around and I tried, andno disparagement to any of my
previous companies and things ofthat nature, but none of them
were built for me. And so I waslike, I want to start building
(39:07):
things that actually promote thepragmatism of love because it's
crazy to me that I think a lotof people and when I say love,
it's Filet O love, right? It'sthe building together love.
We're all humans together,right? We're in this together.
We're all citizens of thisplanet. And, you know, it's
almost like we've accepted thisas a fate where it's like, okay,
(39:31):
when I'm doing loving stuff andgood stuff, that's like
nonprofit family and friends.When it comes to making money,
it's cutthroat, I go to work andwhatever, right? I don't like
that. Because
Heidi (39:43):
you tend to be very siloed. It's like I'm two
different people.
Brian (39:47):
And I'm just like, no, I want to be loved in everything
that I do. And so that's whylast year particularly, I
focused so much on the peopleand the connectivity because
really what I'm trying to do isjust create new soil so that
when we do plant seeds, andsometimes we even scatter, the
(40:07):
odds of them flourishing aregreatly higher than if I just
focused only on the numbers.
Heidi (40:14):
Yeah. Well, I think it is a testament to your commitment
to positivity and to puttingpeople first. That is our goal
with clients, as well asinternally with our staff. And
we're wanting our staff to feelthat way so that they can also
share that with our clients andour, you know, our partners that
(40:35):
we work with. But I think it's atestament to you to show that
that idea is very different thanwhat our goals and missions have
been for many years.
But to show that already we'veseen such a dramatic shift on
the financial side of it, wherewe're more profitable than ever,
but the focus has really been onbuilding the relationships and
(40:57):
connections. So before we wrapup, any final comments or things
you wanna share, you know, keepin mind, I love these
conversations and I hope peoplefind it valuable.
Brian (41:06):
Yeah, hope they do too. Don't know if this is completely
congruent with most of yourother podcasts and episodes, but
I would just like to end withone, thank you. This has been a
pleasure. It's been so fun tohave this conversation with you.
And the only parting words Iwould just say is, it's good.
(41:28):
In fact, it's great to becomerooted in yourself and confident
in who you are. And really whatthe goal for individuals and
companies, in my opinion, isfind the pairing, the company
(41:49):
and the team that works for youwhere you can root and be
yourself and go out and be anoptimal version and where you're
valued. That's the biggest thingis I feel like so many people,
they go out and they work atcompanies where they're not
valued, and I don't see how thatis sustainable. If you're
(42:09):
working at a company thatdoesn't value you, I don't think
it's sustainable. And so at ETS,I always want to have soil where
when you come here, you cangrow.
And we want to grow with you,and we want to empower you to
grow. And you are valued, youare seen, and you are loved, and
you are heard. And when you havepeople growing like that, it's
really fun. That's what we'rebuilding together. And it's
Heidi (42:32):
That's exactly right. That's certainly what we're
striving for. And it's been anamazing year. I know for myself
personally, I very much feelthat. And I think I've shared it
a lot in this podcast that Ilove bringing the whole holistic
person in.
I love that shift in businessthat it doesn't have to be we
are this, you know, in the boxprofessional in a suit and tie,
(42:53):
and we keep all that other stuffseparate, that we're moving into
this era where, especially nowwith technology and and all
these things that we're not evensure if anything's real anymore,
that real aspect of people, Ithink, means more than ever
before. And I've actually cometo appreciate that and love that
in in finding, and probably itsage as well, getting to a point
(43:13):
in life where you just feellike, look, I'm gonna be
authentic. I'm gonna be me. Andwe're human. All of us are
human, whether it's ourprofessional status, whether
it's what we're doing for workor in life or all those things.
And so as we make that shift inETS, it does create so much more
fulfillment and joy and peace.And then also that culminates, I
(43:36):
think, in motivation. It is afun conversation, little bit
different than tact necessarily,but that's really what it's all
about.
Brian (43:44):
Yeah, it is. And I'm thrilled to hear that because
the peace and the joy thatyou're talking about, that's the
fruit. Yep. You know, and thefruit, I guess my ending now,
new ending comment, but thefruit that I look at is the
numbers do matter, right? Youwant to hit those, right?
So, that is part of your fruit.But then you also want to take
(44:05):
the wider lens and look, arepeople operating out of joy,
harmony, whatever your valuesare that you want. Make sure
you're also bearing that fruit.And when once as a company,
you're hitting your bottom line,and your vision, values, and
mission, you are a force. Youare a force at that point, and
(44:28):
now you can go out and grow intowhatever you want to be.
Heidi (44:31):
Amazing. There you go. Then you can grow into whatever
you want to be. Love that somuch. And so with that, thank
you for listening.
Again, this is SlashTax Podcast,and we really just try to have
meaningful conversations abouttax strategy, incentives for
investors, business owners, andCPA firms to think outside the
box. Be innovative, be adisruptor, be who you are, and
(44:54):
go out and be a force. That'swhere we're going to follow that
with Brian.
Brian (44:59):
I like it.
Heidi (45:00):
Go out and be a force. Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the SlashTax Podcast. So this podcast
specifically is aboutdiscovering legal tax strategies
and incentives, powerfulincentives for smart investing
insights for business owners andreal estate investors. So we
talk with a lot of CEOs, CFOs,CPAs, business owners, and
disruptors about how they'reachieving success, where that's
(00:30):
coming from, and how we can usethe tax strategy as or the tax
code as powerful incentives tohelp fund your business, fund
innovation, and help youcontinue to grow your wealth
instead of it being your numberone liability. Brian, welcome to
SlashTAS Podcast. I'm soexcited.
So first off introducing Brian.Brian Payne is actually now the
(00:51):
president and CFO of EngineeredTax Services, which we're so
excited to have him on board.He's been a breath of fresh air
for us at Engineered TaxServices. He is helping
reimagine how tax, finance, andstrategy can serve people, not
just profit. And it's such aninteresting perspective when we
think about finance.
(01:11):
So this is going to be a funconversation. His passion is
building ecosystems of trust andinnovation and human
flourishing, cultivatingcompanies and communities with
intentional love, and purpose.Again, who thinks of that in the
workspace? So whether it's taxstrategy or business building or
spiritual vision, his work'sabout creating rooted systems
(01:32):
and bridges of belonging andstructures where both people and
the organization both can thrivetogether. And so I am so
grateful for you being here.
And I love this conversationbecause I think a lot on my
podcast, I try to bring thehuman aspect to business and to
think about why, you know, wetalk about this with some of my
other guests. It's like, what isyour why? Or they'll say, what
(01:55):
is my passion? Because of whatis your because for why you do
things. So let's start first offwith your role at Engineered Tax
Services.
Talk a little bit about whatyou're doing and how you ended
up here.
Brian (02:07):
Okay, yeah, very cool. And thank you for having me. I'm
so excited too, this will befun. Yes. Gonna be fun.
I met Julio originally when Iwas working with Yucambe
Mutombo, and I'm actually goingto Atlanta, I'll be tomorrow. He
passed away last year, they'rehaving a service for him, so I'm
going be there tomorrow. And,you know, I always say in life,
(02:28):
there's brutal moments, but itdoes require intentionality
usually, but you can make themfruitful. And it was through
that brutal moment of losing himthat fruit came, and that's how
I ended up at ETS, and that'sthe fruitful part.
Heidi (02:44):
Wow.
Brian (02:45):
And it's been a blessing. So, last February is when I
began, and I came on just as theCFO. And then in July, I was
moved into the President and CFOrole, and absolutely loving it.
I really it's an honor,honestly, to be able to work
with you and our amazing team ofpeople. I'm loving it.
(03:07):
I'm absolutely loving it.
Heidi (03:09):
It's, I'm sure it's a different role. Talk a little
bit about your background andwhat you've been doing that led
you on this path to what you'redoing right now.
Brian (03:18):
Yeah, so I was always kind of in that finance
operations mindset and space. Iwas with Bank of America and
their corporate investmentcorporate treasury for years and
took the entrepreneurial plunge.Admittedly, everything I've
always done is, sorry, I'vealways catalyzed and served
(03:41):
others try and co create theirvision. That's what I love
doing. I love co creating.
And so, if you give me a vision,I want architect. And that's
probably where I differ frommost CFOs. A lot of CFOs are
more of a scorekeeper. Oh, thisis how we did. I think of it
(04:02):
more as an architect of cocreation.
And that's why I'm alwayslooking to bring the human
element into it. I call it thepragmatism of love, is what I'm
striving for, because you getwhat you pay for. And so, if I
can put together a financialmodel, compensation model,
incentivization plans, andthings of that nature that
(04:24):
actually pay you for doing thevery things that we want you to
do, you get it, right? Yeah. Andso, that's why I'm very
intentional about alwaysincorporating mission, vision,
values and things of that natureinto everything that I build
because I know as we grow as acompany, if I'm saying I want
(04:50):
this, but then I'm paying you todo that, I'm gonna get that.
Yep. So, classic ounce ofprevention's worth a pound of
cure. I put a lot of focus intothat architect and that planning
so that when we go and scale,we're growing towards our
mission vision values ratherthan away.
Heidi (05:10):
That leads me into maybe a difficult question. And you
and I've had this conversation.I'm like, I think it may be
easier to build a startupcompany from scratch and build
mission, vision, and values forsomething that you're building
from scratch or bringing peoplein and saying, this is what
we're having buy in for, here wego. At our company, we are
(05:31):
almost twenty five years old andwe are professional services.
And although we have alwaysloved and talked about the fact
that we are very innovative andJulio, our founder, is very
entrepreneurial, alwaysevolving, always growing, I love
his perspective, inherently youdo tend to have people in
(05:51):
cultures who tend to get stuckdoing what they've always done.
And we have had a tremendousamount of success over the last
twenty five years. And with thatsuccess, I think people do want
to fall into a path wherethey're like, yeah, this is what
we do. This works and we'regoing to keep doing that. And as
with all things and innovationin our world right now with AI
(06:13):
and technology, And I feel likea significant shift towards
authenticity and being real andhuman, which is one of my
favorite shifts in businesstoday. It's not always the
easiest thing, and not everybodyis that amenable to change and
to shift or innovation.
(06:34):
And so in that sense, what haveyou found to be some of the
struggles with working with acompany that's older and a
little bit more, structured inits ways versus where you want
to go. What is that mission,vision, vision, and values of
(06:55):
ETS and where you want to go?And then talk a little bit about
the struggles of what we'regoing through to get to that
point, because we're in themiddle of it, right?
Brian (07:04):
Yes, yeah, we are, it's fun. Yeah, last December we put
together our new mission,vision, and values. And I love
how we did it because ETS isalso part of a family with TGP
and IPA, and I love that weadopted the same mission, now
our how is different, right,different companies. And then
our vision and values, and weput people first, and that's our
(07:26):
first value, right? And it ismore difficult moving and
turning a ship that's large,right?
They talk about the largercompanies or whales, right?
Turning them around, it'ssometimes years. A startup, a
small company, it's a loteasier. A handful of people,
(07:48):
hey, do we like this? Yeah,let's go.
Yeah. We don't have that. We'renot a jet ski, we're more of a
large boat, right? And so, is alittle more I would say the word
that comes to mind is it's justa little more intensive, right?
And it does take longer.
(08:09):
The way I approach it is mostlyI focus on growth and molting.
Those are two concepts that Iuse a lot. And so right now at
ETS, I've been saying to for awhile now, we're molting, right?
A crab goes through 20 shells inits life. Eagles molt and get
(08:29):
new beaks and talons andfeathers.
And what happens is, when you'remolting as a company, you're
kind of leaving your old shellbehind. And that's always a
sticky situation because youstill have clients and people
you're serving. You can't justeradicate what you're doing or
you're going to drop the ball.But so you're leaving the shell
(08:51):
and you're stepping into the newone while you're also building
the new one. And inevitably whathappens is there are people who
look back at the old shelllongingly, right?
Heidi (09:02):
Yeah, sometimes it's tempting. I
Brian (09:05):
was comfortable over there. Knew what I was doing and
we knew it worked. We don't evenknow if this new shell is going
to work. And what's always themost difficult phase for me is
there's always a phase where wehaven't stepped into the new
shell with any efficacy yet. Andthen people start looking back
and they're technically right.
We were better back then, right?That's when you really have to
(09:29):
have the mental fortitude, andthat's why I also focus so much
on habits. Yeah. Aristotle said,Excellence is not an act, but a
habit. And that's why on theincentivization side, I'm always
trying to incentivize the habitsthat drive our people and our
teams to where we're going.
(09:50):
Because I talk about inertia alot, and a thing at rest stays
at rest. And when you were in acertain inertia where we always
do it this way, when I'm tryingto flip it, that's a bit of a
schlag, right? But once you kindof catch the rhythm and you
start to see it, you get intothat new shell or you get your
new feathers and beak, and thenyou see how it's working and how
(10:12):
much better it is. You're like,Oh, okay, this is pretty
awesome. It's getting people tothat.
That's always the most difficultpart. Also, with a larger
company, you will have someattrition. There are some people
who just aren't built for thenew shell and it's not bad. It's
not that we're right and they'rewrong or anything like that, but
it's, hey, we're going in a newdirection now, we're going into
(10:35):
a new shell. It may not be foreverybody, but it'll also
attract new people as well,right?
And so, that's why I focus a loton the tap root. Most people
focus when they're growing acompany, focus on the tree,
notably the crown, leaves andall that, The pretty part,
right? And I get that, but thetrunk and the taproot are really
(10:58):
where I tend to focus more. Andso that's where the culture and
that's where the mission visionvalues are so critical, because
that's your taproot, that's yourtrunk, that's the nutrients to
the rest of it, right? And so,we anticipated this year was
going to be a little difficult,particularly in the first half
because we're trying new things,we're building and stepping into
(11:19):
new things.
That's why I focus so much onour taproot and trunk. And that
to me is where the financialplanning and forecasting come
into play and also the culture.And so when you put a good
culture in with a good financialmodel, and tax strategies have a
(11:39):
vital component to that, manypeople tend to see a tax
strategy as, oh, at the end ofthe year, oh, we owe taxes,
crud. Alter prevention, pound acure, put that in before,
whether it's R and D taxcredits, 170, 90, whatever it
is, but build that into yourplan and build around it because
the IRS tax code actuallyrewards those who plan and are a
(12:00):
little more on the aggressiveside. And so, and innovative.
The
Heidi (12:06):
IRS is incentivizing risk and innovation. So those
companies that are willing totake a leap of faith is the way
I like to look at it, whetherthey're creating new products or
systems, or whether they areexpanding into new locations or
building new buildings andbuying into their business, that
is essentially what they'reincentivizing. It is those
(12:26):
companies who are putting theirneck out there and saying, we're
gonna take a leap of faith,we're gonna grow, invest and
innovate. And I love thatbecause too often the tax code
is looked as a big negative, butin fact, there are so many
opportunities there forbusinesses to help support their
success. So, yeah, I thinkthat's a huge.
Brian (12:48):
Yeah, I see it as the government is a little bit of
like a business partner. Hey,you want to innovate? You want
to try new things? Whateveryou're going after, we're here
to meet you halfway. Let's seehow we can make this better
together, right?
And most people don't view itthat way. And so, that's why I
try and put it all holisticallytogether at the forecasting side
(13:09):
of things combined with a strongculture. And then, the last
part, you have to have goodleadership too. Because when
people want to look back, like Iwas talking about, you have to
have people who are willing toput their neck out there a
little bit and say, Hey, I knowit was maybe more comfortable
back there, but we're movingahead. That's where your focus
(13:30):
is so critical, right?
And if you have good leaders,you have a good plan, and you
have a good culture, and youstart stepping into it, all of a
sudden it grows. And the first10% of it is always
Heidi (13:45):
a schlock.
Brian (13:47):
You're just like, kind of like, where's it going? You
don't even know yet, But thenyou start to see the fruits of
it. That's where I kind of Ilove the growth metaphor. I talk
in garden terms a lot, becausenow your new we're calling it
like ETS two point zero, itstarts to grow and bloom, and
it's not at the expense of thepast. It's not that the past
(14:09):
withers and dies, but it juststarts to blossom and grow
deeper, roots down and higherbecause you've integrated all of
this new technology, newculture, new services, all the
things that we're doing, and youput it together, and now you've
started to create a whole newforce that you were never even
thinking was possible a coupleof years ago.
Heidi (14:28):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because something
that was very unexpected withyou coming on board is you were
initially brought on as our CFO.And that was a big piece of
really looking at the finances,also at a time when we had set
some really dramatic goals forgrowth. So we are talking
significant revenue growthgoals, you know, looking at,
(14:50):
look, we want to scale. We wantto, you know, look at this
dramatic, huge, I mean, we'retalking five times growth in a
relatively short period of time.
And so you were brought on asCFO and I'm like, okay, we want
you to dive in as a piece ofthis. And as you shifted into
this role as president, onething that's been very
(15:10):
fascinating, and use thisexample, another client that we
recently met with, you know, ourteam was talking about meeting
with that CPA firm who actuallyhas an in house psychologist.
Brian (15:22):
Mhmm.
Heidi (15:22):
And I thought that was so fascinating. So not to call you
our in house psychologist, butBrian's kind of our in house
psychologist.
Brian (15:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Right.
Heidi (15:32):
But so often I mean, never in my career have I been
in a situation where we've hadsomeone on our team who is
working on helping our teams bebetter humans, understanding
what are your strengths as aperson, as an individual, as a
(15:52):
human being, how do you tap intothose? How do we tap into those?
Not only because understandingthose strengths and how those
contribute to the teamultimately make that person more
in line with where they're atintrinsically and what is more
fulfilling and satisfying. Soyou have happier people, you
have more fulfilled people wholove what they do, who are more
(16:14):
highly producing and work betteras a team, everybody elevates.
And it's such a beautiful modelthat I wholeheartedly believe
in, but that has not been ourfocus.
So again, Putting people firstis the first part of our
mission. And you have reallymade it a point to spend a
tremendous amount of time withour teams spread out all over
(16:36):
the country, traveling, spendingdays with people, having
meaningful human conversations.Why do you think that matters?
In the big scheme of things, weneed to grow our business. We
need to increase revenue.
It matters where the numbersare. Why does it matter to
understand who the people are onthe team?
Brian (16:54):
That's a wonderful question. I could opine on that
for hours, but I'll try and nothijack this entire The two
biggest things that I focus onin response to that are, one, I
see as I focus very much on thespiritual side of things, and if
(17:18):
you want to make that a littleless ethereal, it's really, I
just have, when I have a deeperunderstanding of how your mind
works and how you process, whatit gives me is, one, it gives me
your lens and perspective alittle bit. I'll never have it
fully, but I can start to seethe world through your eyes, and
particularly since we are remoteand you're out in Las Vegas and
(17:39):
I'm in West Palm, very far away.When you make a decision, when
you say a comment, when youwrite an email, I'm not sitting
there with no context, justlike, What in the world is Heidi
saying? Right?
I'm like, Oh, oh, I think shewas probably going this. And
then it's so funny, now thatI've gotten to know you better,
generally, I pontificate as towhere you were going with
(18:02):
something, I'm about 90%accurate. Right? You always give
me something that I didn'treally think about, but like,
like, okay, cool. And so, just,I call that attunement, right?
You have to be attuned. And so,that to me, the in person is us
tuning in. So, when we cometogether as an orchestra, we're
(18:23):
harmonious and we create asymphony, not just a cacophony
of noises, right? And then,also, I want each individual
very rooted because I seebusiness as a garden, we're just
growing, right? And I see usgrowing individually and
collectively, and then you startcross pollinating and that's
where it gets fun, right?
And I want, particularly at theleadership level, I want
(18:46):
everybody to be very comfortablein their own skin, is a common
phrase for it, but I want you tobe attuned to yourself as well
so that when you are buildingand co creating with me, I know
what you're planting and youknow what you're planting, and
you're planting good seeds andgood soil, right? And so, when
(19:08):
you have rooted individualscoming together as a collective
in an attuned way, and we're allplanting our own seeds
individually and collectively.The garden you start to grow
gets fun, you know, it'sbeautiful, actually. So, that's
why I hope that answered yourquestion.
Heidi (19:28):
So, then in that scenario, let's say in a perfect
world, you create thatenvironment, you create this
beautiful garden andeverything's flourishing and
it's being well watered and, youknow, it's got all the
nutrients. How does that affectthe bottom line in your opinion?
Why would it?
Brian (19:43):
Yeah, oh, absolutely it does. Yeah, because particularly
with technology getting so good,the biggest differentiator
between humans and technology,in my humble opinion, is
inspiration. And so, what I'venoticed is when you have people
inspired, and then comingtogether and combining their
(20:08):
inspiration, then going out andgrowing it. The crown of your
trees get beautiful, and that'skind of your top line, right?
And then, I don't do this in away where I'm just, like, willy
nilly spending and doingnonsensical things.
Stewardship is a big word for meon the finance side. I like to
(20:30):
focus on stewardship, and that'swhere, again, the tax code to me
is it's one of my arrows that Ihave to be a good steward,
right? And so really, if youhave a collective that is
inspired, attuned, and thenthat's why I like the habit of
excellence, right? And you havepeople being promoted for being
(20:54):
excellent. You will be effectiveat everything that you do
because you're inspired andyou're integrated.
Heidi (21:02):
Okay.
Brian (21:03):
And then you put that together with good technology
and good plans, your bottom linewill be exponentially better, in
my opinion, than if you have abunch of individuals just kind
of doing their own thing andthen you try and put an
exclamation point on it at theend of the year.
Heidi (21:19):
Yeah. Okay. So for listeners, it's one thing when
you've got a business orbusiness owner or entrepreneur
who is running their business,they are dictating what's
happening with their team,they're hiring the right people,
They're hoping that they'refocusing on that. And I think
that's almost easier than someof the scenarios I see where
(21:40):
we're dealing with organizationsthat have multiple partners. And
so in that situation, forexample, CPA firms, which we
work with a lot of CPA firms,one of the struggles in that
space is oftentimes you'll havea group of partners that are all
equal partners in thatorganization.
And I have seen in many casesover the years where these are
(22:03):
wonderful firms and they'redoing really well financially
successful, they're growing, butthey don't have the synergies.
They don't have a united vision.We see them oftentimes working
very siloed, almost working asif each of them has their own
business. They do things theirown way, oftentimes with their
downline teams. So you have alot of individualized processes,
(22:27):
and it works for them.
But as a collective, it doesn'tnecessarily work for the
collective. And when you see acompany like that with dramatic
growth goals, it typically doesnot support significant growth.
And we've seen that in manycases. And I've had many of my
clients ask me those questions.You know, what do we do?
How do we help facilitate anorganization where we can create
(22:49):
more of this collaboration? So aquestion I have for you is long
winded
Brian (22:53):
Yeah. Know.
Heidi (22:53):
Background. But a question I have for you is in an
organization like that, how canthey what, what are, what's
something that they could do,whether they hire someone or
consultants, or they look atsomething that could help them
come better in line andunderstand the value of that
synergy? Because I thinksometimes people think it's
(23:14):
fine. I want to do things my ownway. But in reality, I think
oftentimes we end up hurtingourselves by doing that.
And it's the opposite of what wethink. So anyway, back to my
question, what do you think thatorganizations like that could do
to focus more on this and whydoes it matter?
Brian (23:31):
Yeah, great question. So why it matters to me is the word
untapped is generally what I usefor those kinds of companies.
And it's very common. It'seasier to work in a silo. It is
easier.
Heidi (23:46):
Absolutely.
Brian (23:47):
But generally, in my experience, the easiest is
that's the path that takes youto nowhere. And so, if you want
to tap into I would look at theopportunity costs that you have
by staying in the silos. Yeah,it's easy and familiar, but
you're going to hit a plateau.And in my opinion, generally
(24:13):
speaking, the way to breakthrough those plateaus is
integration, it's synergizing,it's coming together as a team
and as a collective. You know,if you put a thousand EV
batteries together, it's not theoutput of a thousand EV
batteries, it's like equivalentto like a million or something,
It's like that exponential kindof growth.
Human minds and inspiration, Ithink do the same thing, right?
(24:34):
So if you have four partners allworking individually in four
silos, you're going to hit here.Bringing them together, I think
your upside becomes limitless,right? And that's where the
growth comes in.
Heidi (24:45):
One
Brian (24:46):
next step that I like to try and do is, one, I focus on,
I try and get people to absorbwithout understanding.
Heidi (24:59):
Okay, you need to explain that one more.
Brian (25:01):
Okay, because generally when you have four individuals
working in four silos, it'sbecause you have four different
mindsets, four different brains.They don't understand one
another. And most times whenpeople lack understanding, we
tend to judge or just say no.Right? It's like wall it off,
(25:22):
right?
Where I and I struggled withthis very much, so I have to be
intentional still. But thereason I say absorb without
understanding is I learned tojust kind of receive it and
don't judge it all. And Iactually get curious about it.
The first step that I alwaystake is I'll absorb and I'll
(25:46):
receive, and I try and find thehighest area of congruency,
Something that resonates, right?Going back to attunement, I'm
about resonation a lot.
So someone could say a bunch ofstuff and I'm like, I don't
agree with 95% of that, butthere's 5% where I get it, I'll
focus there. So I asked aquestion about that. Tell me a
(26:06):
little more about that, unpackthat. How do you use that? Now I
call it, we call it bridgebuilding, right?
Now you've kind of created abridge. Like, okay, that other
95%, I'm going to figure thatout later. But this 5% we can
bridge on. Now you've connected,you've integrated your minds in
a little bit. That one littlebridge of that 5% where you're
(26:28):
congruent, that's where you canstart to grow.
If you can just do that evenwith your four partners, do it
individually, and then also cometogether collectively, just find
one thing that you can connecton. Start there, and then watch
it blossom, And now, whathappens in my experience is that
(26:49):
95% that didn't make sense tome, as we're growing together,
now all of a sudden, I'm like, Imay not understand it, but it's
actually good having theirperspective and their mindset
because they ask questions andthey see things that I would
never ask nor see. And so, nowthey're giving me a new
perspective and a new lens thatI didn't have on my own. Yeah.
(27:10):
And so, now you're getting tosee things in new ways.
And that's where I thinkconnectivity is so fun, because
in a way, I'm very empathetic.In a way, when I get to work
with you and then work with Kimor Mike or anybody else on the
team, I try and actually startto see the opportunity or the
problem, whatever we're talkingabout, I try and see it through
(27:31):
their eyes a little bit, and Iget to see the world
differently, and it's kind offun. And when you put it all
together, now your blind spotsare greatly reduced.
Heidi (27:40):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the power of
unity and bringing all of thatenergy together in a collective
way is so much more powerful.And one of the, like I've said
it many times, but one of thephrases that of our partners was
using for a long time was, whatwas it? Rising tides raise all
boats.
Brian (28:00):
Yeah.
Heidi (28:01):
And, you know, at first I was like, that's a weird phrase.
But over time, it is so relevantand accurate. And so it's just
fascinating. It has been afascinating year because, again,
you were really brought on as aCFO and were like, let's look at
the numbers. Let's get ourfinancials in line.
Let's look at the bottom lineand what are our goals? How do
(28:22):
we drive revenue? And much ofthe focus has been on fixing our
relationships and buildingunderstanding. And what's coming
from it is renewed excitement.To your point, the molting can
be painful for some people, andwe've probably had more change
in our company this year withcertain people leaving and then
(28:44):
hiring new people and somechange.
But it's been really healthychange. And even that was done
mostly in a very positive waywhere it's so important to link
to what the what the mission,vision, and values are and
allowing people to come into aspace where they want to thrive
and then empowering them to dothat. What are your thoughts on
(29:07):
empowering staff? Especially,okay, we are a highly remote
company, so lots of remotepeople. There's always this
interesting back and forthbetween do we manage and oversee
or micromanage almost?
What are they doing? Are theyworking? How do we look at, at
(29:28):
productivity? How do we knowpeople are doing certain things?
Versus how do we inspire andencourage and elevate people to
want to make them exponentiallybetter?
Not just for the sake of thecompany, but as human beings,
because I believe most peoplethrive in that space of
overcoming challenges andlearning and growing and feeling
(29:49):
like they're contributing tosomething larger than
themselves. At least that's myphilosophy. Right. I love that.
Whether it's true or not.
But there are some people thatare not comfortable in that
space and they don't want to be,they don't want to take, I think
that ownership. So what do youthink is the most important
thing with empowering staff andthat balance between looking at
(30:10):
it again from a financialperspective of ROI, Are we
getting productivity? How areare people doing there versus
the human aspect of it? Becausewe wanna be human. We wanna
connect.
Everything wants to be lovelyand connected and and a big
happy family. But at the sametime, you have to look at the
bottom line and the numbersmatter. Right. Where is that
(30:30):
balance?
Brian (30:31):
So, I hope you don't get mad at me, but I would like to
wordsmith your inquiry a littlebit. I don't see things in
balance. When people ask meabout a work life balance, I
don't answer that question in abalanced way. I see things in
spirals. And you are right,right now, the focus has mostly
(30:55):
been more on the people, again,that taproot and trunk and kind
of bringing that in.
And it's also the soil, becauseI want to create a space where
people can feel seen and loved,and they can become who they are
rooted, and it flourishes there,right? Now, what's actually kind
of funny now, it doesn't alwayshappen this
Heidi (31:14):
way,
Brian (31:14):
but oftentimes a natural byproduct, particularly if you
are, as part of the culture, I'malways driving stewardship. We
are reinforcing efficiency. Andso, sometimes it's an ancillary
benefit, but what I also tend todo is the focus kind of shifts
(31:36):
as we grow. Right now, it's verymuch the soil, the roots, the
trunk is the focus, and numbersare a little more back burnered,
but I'm always monitoring, it'snot that I'm like avoiding them,
but as we grow and as our soilis good, that's when I start to
shift a little more into anumbers focus, we also start,
(31:59):
that's where accountabilitytends to augment as well.
Because anytime you're doingsomething new, you're gonna have
to iterate more.
We've never done some of thesethings. Some of the stuff we're
doing doesn't exist, right?Yeah. And so, we're creating
something that's never existedbefore. You're going to fail
forward on that, right?
Marines plan only 75% of amission. They leave 25% open for
(32:23):
variables that can just come. Ikind of see us in that phase of
things. As we've grown it and cocreated it, I always want to
keep doing new things, I don'twant to stagnate, But as that
kind of blossoms and you startto see it, that's when the
accountability and the numbersbecome a little more in focus,
because now we've built it, nowwe've created it, now we have to
(32:44):
make sure that we're stewardingit properly. And so, it's a
little bit of a phase approachin when I do that.
But to go back to your originalquestion of how you balance the
people and the numbers, if youingrain in the people a culture
of stewardship, the numbers tendto work, and then, you know,
(33:07):
last year we had to make somemoves, and we do some things to
make sure that the company isthriving and growing, and making
sure that the numbers are wherethey need to be, but I try and
do it in a way where the focusis more on the people driving
the numbers versus my numbersdriving what I do. I want the
people to catalyze.
Heidi (33:26):
Okay.
Brian (33:27):
And then that becomes kind of a spiral because what
you're doing is you're creatingan energy in your people that
foster growth and efficiency andstewardship. And so, your
numbers tend to look prettygood, right?
Heidi (33:43):
It's so interesting because it is such a out of the
box way of thinking philosophyas it relates to finance. Oh,
yeah. So it's it's it's beenvery refreshing. It's been a
complete shift from what we havefocused on as a company for
fifteen plus, twenty plus years.Before we kind of wrap this up,
(34:07):
being slash tax podcast, talk alittle bit about also
incorporating strategy andreally making sure that we're
also strategically looking, whenwe're empowering people, at
those opportunities andembracing those as it relates to
finance.
Brian (34:26):
Yeah, so on the strategy side of that, what I do is, one,
I'm always looking for thedifferent tools and
opportunities at my disposal.Tax is oftentimes never
considered a tool.
Heidi (34:40):
Never, exactly.
Brian (34:42):
But when I put our financial forecasts together, I
incorporate the tax strategiesinto it. And so, part of it is
when you're forecasting, be asholistic as possible. Don't
limit yourself just to, Hey,these are my line items. Take
(35:04):
the wider lens and look at allthe opportunities you can to
optimize the stewardship of whatyou're doing, right? And then
what I do from there is, as wego throughout the year, if
something starts to look alittle amiss or awry, or it's
not going according to the plan,that's where and this is where I
love the people part, again,kind of a spiral.
(35:24):
I'll go to them and say, Hey,this is not unfolding as we
anticipated. Tell me what'sgoing on here, and let's see
what's going to happen. And thenyou're in a much better position
to navigate it, and I like tocall it, you need to glean the
(35:46):
good. And sometimes it's noteven based on the people.
Sometimes it's a macro outsideof you.
Heidi (35:52):
Okay.
Brian (35:53):
Like this year, we woke up in January, and there was a
court case that impacted one ofour line pretty heavily.
Heidi (36:02):
Yep. That
Brian (36:04):
had nothing to do with us, But it negatively impacted
us pretty greatly, right? We cansit here and just get all bitter
about it, or we can cometogether and say, Hey, how do we
take this negative, this badthing that happened, and how do
we turn it into a positive? Howdo we glean the good out of it?
And when you get a culture andyou get a team of people,
(36:25):
they're not even seeing anythingas bad anymore. It's just an
opportunity, right?
I call problems opportunities inbusiness clothes, right? It's an
opportunity to get better, andyou keep doing that. And what
you do is you'll create a pulsewhere your people are growing
and thriving. They're comingtogether, they're taking on
challenging things. What we dois not easy.
(36:48):
Yeah. But we embrace thosechallenges and we come together
and we go out and no matter whathits us in the face, we take it
and we're like, okay, good.Here's how we're gonna take this
bad thing, glean the good out ofit, get better, learn lessons.
Now our company's thriving in awhole new way. I just want to do
(37:10):
that every day.
Heidi (37:12):
Okay, so I see a recurring theme that whether
we're looking at financialaspects and tax strategies,
we're prospectively looking athow we can reduce things or
increase the bottom line, orwe're looking at people or
problems or teams, it's reallyperspective. And I think what
your main focus is, is reallylooking again at opportunities.
(37:33):
And it's a mindset shift. It'schoosing to look at things as
positives and opportunities togrow. So as we wrap up, where
does that come from in you?
Brian (37:49):
That comes mostly from growing up and starting my
career in a world that wasn'treally built for me. It was
painful. It was very painful,honestly. And I felt very
unappreciated, unseen, andunloved. And I grew towards
bitter.
I almost got bitter, So,
Heidi (38:11):
I mean, that not only drives bitterness, but it is a
We're talking about gardens.It's a breeding ground for being
deflated.
Brian (38:24):
Yeah, toxicity. It's destructive. And so I kind of
licked my wounds and I was like,you know what? I'm going to
start building companies thatare good soil. That's really
where it came from.
Not even for me to judge whetheryou're a good plant or anything.
That's not it. I just want tocreate good soil so that when
(38:46):
you plant your seed, it canflourish. Now, I want that seed
to be congruent with the companyand all that, obviously. But
that's honestly where it camefrom.
I went around and I tried, andno disparagement to any of my
previous companies and things ofthat nature, but none of them
were built for me. And so I waslike, I want to start building
(39:07):
things that actually promote thepragmatism of love because it's
crazy to me that I think a lotof people and when I say love,
it's Filet O love, right? It'sthe building together love.
We're all humans together,right? We're in this together.
We're all citizens of thisplanet. And, you know, it's
almost like we've accepted thisas a fate where it's like, okay,
(39:31):
when I'm doing loving stuff andgood stuff, that's like
nonprofit family and friends.When it comes to making money,
it's cutthroat, I go to work andwhatever, right? I don't like
that. Because
Heidi (39:43):
you tend to be very siloed. It's like I'm two
different people.
Brian (39:47):
And I'm just like, no, I want to be loved in everything
that I do. And so that's whylast year particularly, I
focused so much on the peopleand the connectivity because
really what I'm trying to do isjust create new soil so that
when we do plant seeds, andsometimes we even scatter, the
(40:07):
odds of them flourishing aregreatly higher than if I just
focused only on the numbers.
Heidi (40:14):
Yeah. Well, I think it is a testament to your commitment
to positivity and to puttingpeople first. That is our goal
with clients, as well asinternally with our staff. And
we're wanting our staff to feelthat way so that they can also
share that with our clients andour, you know, our partners that
(40:35):
we work with. But I think it's atestament to you to show that
that idea is very different thanwhat our goals and missions have
been for many years.
But to show that already we'veseen such a dramatic shift on
the financial side of it, wherewe're more profitable than ever,
but the focus has really been onbuilding the relationships and
(40:57):
connections. So before we wrapup, any final comments or things
you wanna share, you know, keepin mind, I love these
conversations and I hope peoplefind it valuable.
Brian (41:06):
Yeah, hope they do too. Don't know if this is completely
congruent with most of yourother podcasts and episodes, but
I would just like to end withone, thank you. This has been a
pleasure. It's been so fun tohave this conversation with you.
And the only parting words Iwould just say is, it's good.
(41:28):
In fact, it's great to becomerooted in yourself and confident
in who you are. And really whatthe goal for individuals and
companies, in my opinion, isfind the pairing, the company
(41:49):
and the team that works for youwhere you can root and be
yourself and go out and be anoptimal version and where you're
valued. That's the biggest thingis I feel like so many people,
they go out and they work atcompanies where they're not
valued, and I don't see how thatis sustainable. If you're
(42:09):
working at a company thatdoesn't value you, I don't think
it's sustainable. And so at ETS,I always want to have soil where
when you come here, you cangrow.
And we want to grow with you,and we want to empower you to
grow. And you are valued, youare seen, and you are loved, and
you are heard. And when you havepeople growing like that, it's
really fun. That's what we'rebuilding together. And it's
Heidi (42:32):
That's exactly right. That's certainly what we're
striving for. And it's been anamazing year. I know for myself
personally, I very much feelthat. And I think I've shared it
a lot in this podcast that Ilove bringing the whole holistic
person in.
I love that shift in businessthat it doesn't have to be we
are this, you know, in the boxprofessional in a suit and tie,
(42:53):
and we keep all that other stuffseparate, that we're moving into
this era where, especially nowwith technology and and all
these things that we're not evensure if anything's real anymore,
that real aspect of people, Ithink, means more than ever
before. And I've actually cometo appreciate that and love that
in in finding, and probably itsage as well, getting to a point
(43:13):
in life where you just feellike, look, I'm gonna be
authentic. I'm gonna be me. Andwe're human. All of us are
human, whether it's ourprofessional status, whether
it's what we're doing for workor in life or all those things.
And so as we make that shift inETS, it does create so much more
fulfillment and joy and peace.And then also that culminates, I
(43:36):
think, in motivation. It is afun conversation, little bit
different than tact necessarily,but that's really what it's all
about.
Brian (43:44):
Yeah, it is. And I'm thrilled to hear that because
the peace and the joy thatyou're talking about, that's the
fruit. Yep. You know, and thefruit, I guess my ending now,
new ending comment, but thefruit that I look at is the
numbers do matter, right? Youwant to hit those, right?
So, that is part of your fruit.But then you also want to take
(44:05):
the wider lens and look, arepeople operating out of joy,
harmony, whatever your valuesare that you want. Make sure
you're also bearing that fruit.And when once as a company,
you're hitting your bottom line,and your vision, values, and
mission, you are a force. Youare a force at that point, and
(44:28):
now you can go out and grow intowhatever you want to be.
Heidi (44:31):
Amazing. There you go. Then you can grow into whatever
you want to be. Love that somuch. And so with that, thank
you for listening.
Again, this is SlashTax Podcast,and we really just try to have
meaningful conversations abouttax strategy, incentives for
investors, business owners, andCPA firms to think outside the
box. Be innovative, be adisruptor, be who you are, and
(44:54):
go out and be a force. That'swhere we're going to follow that
with Brian.
Brian (44:59):
I like it.
Heidi (45:00):
Go out and be a force. Thanks for listening.
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