January 14, 2026 • 50 mins
What does it really take to turn your music into a sustainable career in today’s streaming world? In this episode of Taking Care of Your Music Business, host Ben Parker sits down with award-winning songwriter Sacha Skarbek and The MLC’s Jamie Dominguez to explore the business side of music creation.
From adopting a CEO mindset to understanding that music is both art and business, this episode dives into the strategies, community support, and transparency needed to thrive. Learn how The MLC helps songwriters collect streaming mechanical royalties and why diversifying your revenue streams is key to long-term success.
This conversation offers practical insights on balancing creativity with business smarts—and guidance on registering with The MLC to make sure you’re collecting everything you’ve earned.
Watch all our full episodes on YouTube here and learn more about The MLC and our mission to ensure songwriters and music publishers receive their mechanical royalties from streaming and download services in the U.S. accurately and on time here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Taking Care of Your Music Business, brought to youby the Mechanical Licensing Collective, also known as the MLC.
In this podcast, we'll divedeep into the heart of the music industry,
exploring how to get paid as a creative,making sure that you're receiving all the royalties you deserve.
We'll also dive into building a sustainable career,sharing strategies and best practices that creators can use to achieve long term success.
(00:23):
Join us as we bring you interviews with top songwriters and music executiveswho share their personal journeys and professional wisdom
on thriving in the business, all while making a living.
So get ready for some real talk about navigating the music industry.
Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode,and be sure to catch all of our full episodes on YouTube.
(00:45):
Hey, my name is Jaime Dominguezwith the MLC.
Welcome back to the MLCs podcastTaking Care of Your Music Business.
In today's episode, we're diving into a powerful conversationabout the songwriter journey and the new music business.
I'm joined by two incredible guestsSasha Skarbek, an award winning songwriter
(01:05):
behind hits for artists like Adele, Miley Cyrusand James Blunt, along with Ben Parker,
a fellow creator and advocate for songwriters.
Together, we'll explore how the industry is evolving,what it means to be an independent creator today,
and why community, education and transparencyare key to building a sustainable music career.
Let's get into it.
(01:26):
Very, very pleased to be here with awardwinning songwriter Sasha Skarbek
and the fantastic Jamie Dominguez from the MLC.
Jamie, just quickly give a little briefoverview of what the MLC does. Gladly.
Um, so the MLC, the mechanical licensing collective.
We're a nonprofit organization, and we were born out of a,um, an amendment that was passed called the Music Modernization
(01:52):
Act back in 2018.
Uh, and basically, we are designated by theU.S. Copyright Office to make sure that you, the songwriters
and the music publishers, the rights holders, are getting paid your streaming royalties.
So very important.
Um, we're completely nonprofit.
We're funded by all the streaming servicesApple Music, Spotify,
(02:16):
Amazon Music.
Um, and we make sure that that you get paid these streaming royalties.
So it's super important to understand and learn about.
We're going to talk about it today.
Amazing. Thank you.
Um, first of all, we're going to delve into the past,the mysterious past of Mr. Skarbek.
How do you want to do that?
(02:37):
Well, I've I've heard a bit of it.
And, you know, I think I'm prepared to go a bit deeper now.
Oh, no. Please.
Um, so you've been part of some pretty big recordsin the last 20 years, from James Blunt to Miley Cyrus.
Um, this is a question that we ask a lotwhen we run our songwriting course,
the Skarbek Academy run these courses, and we have guests.
(02:59):
And one of the most interesting kind of questions is, you know,what are those key moments looking back in your career
where you could see it properly shifting forward?
Yeah, it's an interesting onein terms of those sort of pivotal moments
that take place in in your career and certainly in my career.
(03:21):
The first one, I'd say was the somethingwhich I thought was going to end my music career was actually opened the door
to another part of my career.
So I was coming from a classical background,was a classical pianist, had a music scholarship
to quite a good music school.
I did that, but I also really enjoyed playing sport.
(03:41):
And so I started playing sport and I broke my handplaying rugby,
which is a game that you guys probably don't know that much aboutand just as well.
But, um, and at that point,my, uh, piano teacher just said,
you're not serious about this, so I'm not going to teach you anymore.
And I thought, oh my God, they're going to kick me out of the school.
(04:03):
I'm going to lose my scholarship. I'm not going to have anything.
Um, but fortunately, the school were quite,um, supportive.
But when I, when I by doing that, I then had I couldn't play sports.
I had a broken arm, I couldn't do much else.
And I met a guy at the schoolwho I'd never really talked to before, but he'd been there,
and he introduced me to jazz music.
(04:25):
So he just. He said, come around, you know, have a cup of tea.
I'll play some records.
So he introduced me to jazz and I was like, thatopened my mind to like, oh my God, where's the music for this?
Because no, no, no, they improvise.
I was like, oh, this is, this is brilliant. This is great.
And that led me to then when my sort of hand repairedto sitting on a piano and started to improvise and started going,
(04:47):
oh, I don't need to necessarilyjust have, you know, a manuscript in front of me.
I can do that.
That went into becoming a jazz player,jazz player, into becoming a sort of jazz funk player,
and then that into souland then became a session musician.
And that was my sort of that was literally my journeyinto the, um, into the music industry.
(05:09):
And if it hadn't been for that, I guess I wouldn'thave had my, um, my career. Right.
And then later on, as asyou got more into writing,
are there any kind of.
I mean, I always feel that it's very much about peopleand like the people you end up working with. It's not just the artists.
It could be the managers, the A&R, the people you bump into at parties.
(05:30):
It is a people business.
Are there sort of significant people along the way, artistsor otherwise, that you feel really kind of
changed the tangent of where. You were going?
Yeah, I mean, definitely for me, the biggest one was uh,I was desperately trying to become a songwriter
and get some movement with itand I was struggling quite a lot.
(05:52):
In fact, I have ended up having to do,you know, use it for a gardening show on a cable TV thing.
And it was like pretty sort of dire,you know, things going on.
But I met a guy who was in the Armyand he, uh, was a singer songwriter,
but he was still working in the Army,and he played me some of his stuff,
(06:15):
and I was like, well, yeah, it's pretty good.
And and you've got a really annoying voice,but it's a unique kind of voice.
Um, and I sort of was like, well, he goes,well, you know, I can't get anyone to work with me.
And I thought, well, good news is nobody wants to work with me either,so maybe we'll work together.
Uh, and that guy was James Blunt.
And out of that, we wrote, you know, your beautiful goodbye, My love.
(06:39):
A lot of the big songs off his first record,but with no, you know,
it was just two kind of people slightlyon the outside that found each other.
And with that, we, you know, we would like the the.
Yeah. Like the outsiders.
Yeah. Um, so in those sessions, you didn't go in going,you know, we know where this is going
(07:00):
and it's going to go to a major label and it will beyou just thought, let's write the best songs we can write completely.
And in fact, I remember still to this day, finishingyour writing, your writing, your beautiful.
And we did it pretty quicklyand we sort of went,
yeah, I think that's all right. Do you think it's all right?
And you look at yourselfand then let's, you know, let's go to the pub. That's great.
(07:22):
And so yeah, we had no real expectations of it,but we had a real expectation of what we wanted
to deliver in terms of qualityand what James's vision was right,
what he was trying to say and what he was wanting to do.
What about some of the otherthe big songs that you've been involved with, you know,
do you definitely, looking back,feel that in the room
(07:43):
there was this sort of moment where you all looked to each otherand thought, this is something really special or is it not like that?
Is it kind of just you do your bestand some go and some don't.
I think you get a sense ofif something's going in the right direction, if something's,
you know, when you're when you're when you're writingand creating.
(08:06):
At one point you get a thing. Okay.
Yeah. This is this has got something this has got.
Yeah. This is feels exciting.
And you and you and you, you've youthen start to really explore and start to get quite,
um, you know, you're on the right path with it.
I think when you finished it, sometimes you go, well that goes in the,the box of
that's got a real chance.
(08:27):
But a lot of the time I don't think you really know.
You know, you just got a slight hunches about it.
But in I think with, you know,certainly with say it's a song like Wrecking Ball again
no expectation on the session.
Um.
(08:48):
Uh, what was the session for that?
Like? So the you know,I have to be careful because my manager is sitting over in the corner
and he's to blame for quite a lot of this,but he, he the
I had two big, big sessionsthat completely were complete write offs when I moved to L.A. for a little bit
and I had these two big sessions and they were completewrite offs that took place.
(09:10):
Um, and I was really like, oh God, this is really depressing.
And I've just moved here and I've spent all this moneyand my family and come out here and,
and then had 1A3 dayand my manager goes,
don't worry, I'm going to get you a session.
So we booked a session with two peoplethat I had no idea who they were and they had not particularly,
(09:30):
you know, they weren't high leveleither writers or artists or anything like that.
We couldn't find a studio.
So I was like, okay, all right,just find me at least a piano or something like that.
So then Mike found me this.
He he he somehowknew a guy who ran a Japanese school
in the middle of, like, nowhere in LA,uh, and said, you know, do you mind if we use your piano?
(09:56):
It's like, okay, fine. Like that.
Uh, we went to this place, and I rememberit was like a sort of classroom, but with a
with a piano in the corner.
I was standing there waiting like that.
And then in walked this, uh, woman,and she said, oh, hi, my name's Marcella.
And I was like, oh, nice to meet you.
I'm like that.
And within the first five minutes, she startedcrying and crying quite hysterically.
(10:18):
And it was like, oh my God, are you okay?
What's going on?
I'm really sorry.
Um, you know, I was maybe getting married this weekend,but my fiance had become sort of, you know, abusive towards me.
And it was everything just was unraveling.
And I had to call it off,and I don't know, you know, I'm just all over the place.
(10:39):
And I said, well, oh my God.
So we just said, well, let's get out of here because this is a bit weirdand this Japanese thing.
So we went around the cornerand had coffee and we basically spent an hour just talking.
And, you know, she was telling me what had happened.
And she was highly emotional.
And we were just so wewe spent an hour of of talking it through.
And she was telling me her sort of story.
(11:00):
And we started to sort of gravitate back.
And then as we were walking back, she said something along the lines of like,you know, maybe it was my fault.
I never meant to start a war.
I just wanted him to let me in.
I guess instead of using force, I should have just let him win.
And I was like, you know what you said?
There's a really you know, it's a beautiful line that.
(11:21):
And fortunately, I had like a few chordskind of up my sleeve and that.
And that's when we started writing.
And that was the bridge for Wrecking Ball.
But that was the first thing that we wrote.
And once we got that started,that I kind of knew something was going to happen, right?
Something special because hates it.
(11:42):
But it was the pain that Paul Marcella was going throughthat we were able to channel and hopefully what myself and and Stephen,
who was the other guy who came in on it and,and and what he did was absolutely incredible was that,
you know, I was sitting at the pianoand whenever I sit on the piano, it's all quite depressing and polite.
And then Maciel comes and he just,you know, he's an incredible pianist,
(12:06):
and he just turned it into this big kind of bulldozerING sound on, on this Japanese piano.
Um, and, and that became the thing of like.
Oh, and then what do you call those things that knock walls down and bulldozers?
Now, that's not going to work really well.
A wrecking ball, wrecking ball. Is that going to work?
He said, well, yeah, it could be.
And then if you go wreck me, yeah, that can work. Okay.
(12:29):
And that's how that whole song came up.
But that was definitely one of those moments where I go,okay, here's I don't know where there's going to be a hit song or not.
Yeah, I know it's going to be a good song.
And you knew that it had come from a very genuine place,which, like the best songs do lyrically, you kind of
want to be hit by a real story and the personsinging it being real about it. Definitely.
(12:51):
Um, so just thinking aboutyou've worked with a number of very different artists
at different levels of their career.
Um, how does the dynamic, dynamic shift in the room?
Like, obviously, sometimes you might writewith a younger artist who's quite
new to it, so you have to be more kind of guidanceand avuncular and sort of have that.
(13:16):
And then you could be in a room with massive superstar.
Do you how do you navigate that?
And do you feel intimidated sometimes when you're in those spaces with thewith the big names?
I try not to,but I think we all probably do a bit.
Yeah. Um, I think for me,what's been really important and what I've learned from other great
(13:38):
either producers or writers is setting upan environment where artists and writers feel safe
and they've they're free to createand be fearless in their creativity.
And if you can do that, whether it's for a young, up and coming artistsor you can do it for a really already established artist.
(13:58):
Yeah, that is to me is where youthen give the best possible chance of
of some success in terms of a creative song that's going to be worth something.
What about like risk taking?
Because obviously with new artists,I always find when I'm working with someone new,
you sort of want to make something that stands out.
But obviously when it's an already accomplished artist, there's that question.
(14:23):
It's like, do you listen to their back catalogand try and make something that feels like
an Adele song when Adele is in the room?
Or do you try and push it and be risktaking and go, let's not have a piano.
Excuse me. Language.
Let's not have a piano.
You can edit that.
Let's not have a piano or a guitar on this track.
It's just your vocal and a beat.
And I guess it's about selling that.
(14:46):
Yeah, I think again.
That's about confidence.
I definitely would like and try to be a bitmore on the, a bit more fearless with it.
So because I get bored just trying to copy something.
So I'm always trying to look for something unique.
Uh, and to me that's the in creativity,what you're always looking for is, is, is the unique
(15:08):
and and sometimes that's it's the mistake that gets done.
But it's being open to those, those areas.
So if you know whether it's somebody sitting on the guitarand they play the wrong chord, you're like, well, hang on a minute.
That's wrong. But maybe it's not wrong. Yeah, right.
That's the one that we go with or or just that,you know, those brilliant stories of somebody like Prince
(15:31):
who would Write a riff on his on the bass,and then write a whole song over the top of it.
Finish it all, record it all.
And then he'd get and he'd be at the mixing desk,and he would just go, do you know what?
Where's that bass riff that I started the song with?
It's on channel ten or whatever.
That mute.
Yeah. That's it.
(15:53):
That's the song right there.
And that kind of level of confidence and fearlessness,I think is so important to be able to be creative and move forward.
And like this industry is renownedfor being full of interesting characters, personalities, egos.
Um, whatwhat's your kind of advice for getting through those moments
(16:18):
where there's tension because of the characters in the room?
You must have experienced a bit of that in your timefor a short time on this planet.
Um.
You know, a lot of what we do,whether you're an artist, whether you're a,
(16:39):
a producer, a writer, anything.
I think even in business stuff,you're going to have tricky characters,
uh, different types of charactersthat you're going to come into contact with.
I think the key iscommunication is trying to
to not always look at itfrom your angle, from your point of view,
(17:01):
to try and understand, even if, if feeling like they're beinga bit too aggressive or a bit too,
you know, pigheaded about it.
But try and have a look at it from that, that angle.
And as well, a big part of what I found is is again, diffusing.
You know, it's like when the temperature is too high and,and, and people's emotions are up too high.
(17:24):
We're trying to fuze thatand it's trying to bring that down,
even if it means go, hey, listen, just give me.
You know, rather than mebeing in your face and being.
Let's just back away for a few minutes.
Come back to. It. And also, like taking the break and changing the vibe.
You're a big fan of sort of leavingthe studio and going for a walk or, you know,
(17:45):
taking the guitar to the park or just shifting the energy. Totally.
So I think it's all about shifting, shifting, taking the temperature downso that you don't, you know, because it's that, you know, whether it's a confrontation
or whether it's actually just something which is, which is good,and you're trying to get this emotion out.
Um, you know, if it's too, too powerful,it can be quite hard to then express yourself.
(18:08):
Yeah. Because you've got this, you know,by being able to take that just down, it's
finding that sort of sweet spot where you're able to go,okay, I'm able to release it at the same time.
I'm like, I'm in control of it rather than it justparalyzing me.
Amazing.
Um, just final question for you.
(18:28):
Just so you know what's happening and where we're at.
It's always good, isn't it? As a human, to know those things.
Um, you know, we're we're like, look.
Talking about career longevity and and you've been doing this foryou've had a really nice, long career
that you've built and worked hard at.
What would you say your kind of big lessonsfor sustainability in this industry and in this?
(18:54):
You know, if you're a writer and an artist.
I think integrity is the most important thing that you can have.
Um, and that that goes to your,your art, that you do your creativity,
but also how you treat people,how you behave in
the music industry is incredibly important because the,the, the person who might be the studio assistant,
(19:23):
you don't know in 2 or 3 years time,they suddenly become the top producer. In the label.
Yeah. It's, um, how you behave.
To to every to everyone isI think is a really, really key key part of it.
And that's, um,you know, it's a bit of a cliche, but it's like, you know,
treat somebody how you'd want to be treated back.
(19:45):
Yeah. Um, and I think if you have that level ofif you can do that and have humility and have integrity,
then that will lead you,uh, in good stead for, um, being able to navigate a,
you know, a roller coaster of a,an industry because you're going to have your ups
and you're going to have your downs.
How you ride those waves is, is really important.
(20:06):
But you need people. And this is also really important.
You need to support other peoplebecause when you're having a bit of a,
you know, downturn,you know, those people will come and support you.
And it's really important. And that's why doing something likewith the academy or building community.
Building networks.
(20:27):
Building friendships is so key to,I think, having a successful career.
Amazing. Thank you.
Well done. Now.
Were you going to ask if you could leave now?
Um, Jamie, over to you.
Oh, no. Yes.
Tell us a bit about your backgroundand your kind of career path.
(20:49):
Um, so I didn't plan any of this.
I didn't say I want to be in rights management, and, you know,make sure artists get paid their streaming royalties.
Um, no. It all happened, really?
Like, you know, in life, you just sort of follow.
Follow the river, follow the path.
(21:09):
And, um, I was really fortunate.
Like everything connects in hindsight,when you look back at everything and like you were saying,
you meet one person and they open a doorand you just never know where that door is going to lead.
And so when I, when I was just graduating collegeat the time, I, um, I went to school in Austin, Texas,
which is a very big musiccity import. Music city.
(21:33):
Um, and I musichad always been a part of my life, like at a young age, I,
you know, it was there was no way around it.
I had to learn how to play the piano.
Did I practice? Absolutely not.
I was I was at the time, I was also like figure skating.
I was I was really into ice skating.
Um, that was like I wanted to be in the Olympics.
And so I was so focused on that,and I could not sit in front of the piano
(21:57):
for an hour every day in practice.
So the teacher would come and she would be like, you have not practicedany of the songs that I left you since last week,
and my nails were long and I just, like, didn't care.
But, um, but I love music.
And my dad was, you know,played in bands when he was young and taught himself guitar
and would make me sing along with him in front of the family holidays.
(22:18):
And I don't sing that well, like, I'm okay, but I'm not a singer,so I knew that wasn't like what I was meant to do.
Um, but I was such a music,music head growing up, I was the one making playlists from my not playlist.
Mix tapes, mix tapes, mix tapes.
I'm not that I have no idea what you're talking about.
Yeah.
Mixtapes.
(22:40):
So I always knew I wanted some.
I wanted to be in it somehow.
Um, I thought I actually wanted to make films.
I wanted to be a director, so I could, I could, I hadI always had visuals when I was, like, listening to music.
Um, so I thought, oh, I'm just going to make moviesand put all my favorite songs on these movies.
Um, but anyway, so I went to UTand, and I started having all these, you know,
(23:04):
internships that, you know, I worked at the radio station, I and then my,one of my internships was at an entertainment PR firm,
which, like, opened a doorfor so many different avenues that I didn't know existed.
I, I started working at the Recording Academy,the Texas chapter, actually,
which, um, led me to, uh,South by Southwest one year. Right.
(23:27):
And, um, you know, that is the beautiful thing about you.
You know, you're in Nashville.
You have so many resources here.
You know, you have a music industry here and infrastructure,and a lot of places don't have that.
So, um, being able to take advantage of thatwhen I was, when I was just in school was, was really cool.
Um, that rhymed.
Um, so.
(23:49):
Yeah, there we go.
A little rudimentary, but yeah, that's why I'm not a songwriter.
Um, so. Yeah.
And then, uh, when I was working for the Recording Academy,I met my future boss at cSAC because at the time,
he was a governor of the New York chapterof the Recording Academy. Right.
Um, and and I was manning the boothat the, at the trade show at South by Southwest.
(24:14):
And, you know, he was kind of giving me a hard time,like jokingly, and I was like, not having it.
I was like, who is this guy? Why is he bothering me?
Um, but then we ended up,like, becoming friends and hanging out, and I took him, you know,
I was like 22 or somethingand took him all over the city and with my friends.
And, uh, we went to see a bunch of gigs togetherbecause it was South by,
(24:38):
um, and then a couple weeks later, I called him up.
Not a couple of weeks, actually. This was months later,um, because I was looking for a new job.
Um, and he,he was like, well, do you want to move to New York?
And I had no idea what he was.
I didn't know, I. Just quickly, what is Csak?
So Csak is a performing rights organization.
(24:59):
They pay, you know, you the songwriter, your performance royaltieswhen your songs are performed on radio, television, live, live performances.
And I had no idea that side of the business.
I mean, I didn't really know anything about the business.
I was working for a PR firm,and then I worked at the Recording Academy, so.
And I was barely out of college,so I had no idea what any of this meant.
Um, and but he said, do you want to move to New York?
(25:22):
And I was like, yeah.
I, you know, I've been obsessed with New Yorksince I was a baby watching Sesame Street.
So, um, so I literally moved.
I was in New York, like two months later,and, um, started the job as his assistant
and just had to learn that side of the business.
And I, you know, I remembersomeone told me because I didn't know what cSAC was,
(25:46):
I took this job and someone told me to, um,read the Donald Passman book.
Right. All you need to know about the music industry.
I didn't read the whole book.
I just went straight to theto the back to the index and looked up cSAC
and what it was, and there was nothing about it.
It was like this little.
There was a little mention and that was it.
Because back then it was it was all about ASCAP.
(26:08):
And BMI was kind of like this unknown.
Um, yeah.
So that's how it all startedand I ended up staying at CC for 19 years.
Wow. Um, and it was a creative job.
Like, at first it was admin because I was, I was sort of assisting.
Um, Trevor Gail was his name.
Our our dear friend Trevor, and he, um,you know, but I was fortunate enough to have this mentor
(26:32):
and a really great support system.
And to your point, Sasha, about, you know,just really that's how the industry works.
Yeah, it it's built on relationships.
And it's so interesting about just being the more openyou are to any opportunity that comes along.
That's the key. It's so important to have to do that.
And maybe you don't know what.
I don't know what Csec is or I don't know how to do that job.
(26:54):
But you know what I'll learn on the fly.
I'll just being open to it.
So totally.
And you know, it'sI had no idea how valuable
that knowledge would be of understandingperformance royalties and rights and,
and, um, it at the time, that wasn't the sexy job to have.
You wanted to work at a record label.
(27:15):
You wanted to do A&R, the record label.
I didn't really I don't know, I didn't really have.
I didn't want to be in that system.
I kind of liked being the underdogand and learning the side. I thought it was really interesting.
And not to mention that I had one on one relationships with the songwriters,not the artists, you know.
(27:35):
And to me, that was really specialbecause, um, you know, it's it's different.
Yeah. It's a totally different dynamic.
I'm not I don't want to put my foot in my mouth.
I don't want to have.
Any very special people.
You know what I'm saying, though? It's a different dynamic.
And and songwriters, I there's a deep respect for that craftbecause, um,
(28:00):
you know, all of these songs just impact us in such deep ways.
You can't. There's no artist without the song.
Exactly. There's, you know, where would we be without the song?
So, um, that was really valuable,like establishing this, this relationship
with the songwriters, because, you know, this is, um,the the pro is oftentimes the first, your first gateway into the music industry.
(28:24):
It's like your first point of contact for a lot of people.
Um, so I was able to really develop these,these really special relationships with songwriters
very early on and watch themgrow and help them grow and give them guidance.
And, and because I wasn't a member of their,like, team, like their paid team,
you know, I wasn't I didn't really have skin in the game in that sense.
(28:46):
I wasn't I wasn't making any money off of them.
Yeah. Um, I was really just there to support.
So the our meet,my meetings with songwriters oftentimes became like therapy sessions, to be honest.
You know, like, they would come into my office and we wouldthey would just vent about
whatever they were going through.
(29:07):
Um, Work wise,you know, with collaborators or with their manager
or, you know, their lawyer or whateverit was with their record label, with their publisher,
like they they felt safe talking to me about that stuff.
And so I, you know, that's something that I to this day,like, I don't take that for granted because, um,
it is so importantthat they feel, you know,
(29:30):
creators feel supportedand, and that there is a safe space for them.
Yeah. I mean, I think most producers,you spend a lot of time almost in the
as a sort of therapist, too,because that's also part of being able to gain trust.
But also it is it's it's part of that that where are you going?
(29:52):
Where are their emotions at?
It tends to be in that area.
So I think there's a lot of us are therapists in this in this business.
That's right. Yeah I know, and that's sort of how, you know,I sort of went into a whole
I went off off the rails.
Um, but we'll go back on track.
So that was. That was what? Where I ended up.
(30:13):
I ended up at the pro, and then, um,that was 19 years.
And then the pandemic hitand I decided it was time for a change.
I was, like, ready to to try something new.
And, um, I love cSAC.
I went to a company called Sound Royalties, which was a completelylike the opposite end of the spectrum.
It was a music finance company.
(30:34):
Right. And, um, but it was during a time where, you know,during the pandemic, everybody, that's when the catalog sales
were the big hot topic, right?
Everybody was trying to sell catalog or people were buying catalogs.
So that gave me a whole other knowledgebase of, you know, understanding
how to leverage your royalty incomeand how valuable that is as an asset.
(30:59):
You know.
Um, do you kind of when you're in that.
Yeah. Do you go, wow, this is a really biggrowth opportunity, or do you kind of
just throw yourself into it and go,oh, I've just learned a bunch more stuff about things.
Yeah. You know, because we don't always dothat as people, do we?
Um, yeah.
No, I just threw myself in it.
(31:19):
Yeah. You know, like when we were setting up for the podcastand I'm like, no, let's just throw ourselves into the fire, right?
Yeah, I think that's the best way to learn.
For me, anyway.
The guy's never done it before to host it, you know?
Yeah, exactly. That's crazy.
I hate public speaking, by the way.
I do it all the time now. You know, it's part of my job.
It's. It's the main facet of my job.
But, um.
(31:39):
Yeah. So you just, you know, you you just do it.
And, um, I knew thatit was something that needed, you know, you have to be uncomfortable.
You have to put yourself, like, taking risks.
It's all about taking risks, right?
It's how you grow. It's how you learn.
And, um. Yeah. And then.
And then, uh, I was there for a few years,and, um, and then my former colleague from cSAC, this is how you.
(32:03):
This is why you never knowwhat will happen. And everything connects.
And that ecosystem that that network you buildis so, so important.
Um, former colleague from cSAC who is now at the MLC.
Ellen. Truly, she came to meand told me there was this opportunity, and I, um,
(32:23):
I was like, that sounds interesting.
And right up my alley, and I missed I missed songwriters, to be honest.
I really missed, like, being in the mix of that.
And I still found ways to do itin my sound royalties gig, but, um, but yeah, so that's that's sort of
how I ended up at the MLC and and it isyou know what I love the MLC is just doing such important work
(32:47):
and it's so it's still so new.
And I love building things.
Um, and it's transformative.
And, you know, I think we're all aligned herewhere we're really passionate about building a healthier,
Sustainable ecosystem for the for the creator.
For the songwriter.
So, um, so yeah, I started that's how I ended up at MLC.
(33:09):
It's been a little over a year and I, I love it.
I think it's like, you know, it couldn'tit couldn't be a better home for me right now.
And, um, I love being able to go out into the,the creator community and like, educate them
and empower them and give them this informationthat it's just, you know,
I can go on and on and on about, um,all the reasons why it's so important
(33:32):
and all the stories I've heard over the last couple of decades from songwriters themselvesand the things that they've, they've struggled with
and how they've had to learn the hard way.
And if maybe they had known this information before,they could have made more informed decisions.
They could have helped their collaborators,you know, like, it's it it really is important.
(33:52):
Because it's such a moving landscape at the moment. It's so hard.
So it's so important to, I think, to have an understandingof you as a songwriter,
as a as a creator, as a as an artist, as.
As. Okay, what is my business as well?
How where is you know.
Where are the income streams coming from?
How can I what are my expectations?
(34:13):
What can I because I think we certainly past we were just sort ofoh well hopefully that will sort itself out.
And you know, maybe you had a publisher or whatever,but now you've got to be far more aware
of all those different areas that.
You and I think, you know,we we talk a lot about it when we run
these courses is that, you know, art and businesshave always been strange partners.
(34:35):
And I think it's easy for us as creatives to sort of go,oh, that's something someone else deals with.
But actually, in this day and age, with the way your income streams work,if you're creative, it's really important
to have the knowledge and not be vague about that stuff.
But what I see constantly and what we've seen, you know,is that as soon as this vagueness,
(34:56):
there's kind of resentment Mhm.
And there's an opportunity to compare and despair.
And the more you know and the more clarityyou have about the income streams,
I think the more there's like a strong ballast to build your career on.
So it's lovely that that's kind ofyour mission is to help people understand that.
Yeah. I mean and we always preach this idea of, of the creatorsadopting a CEO mindset.
(35:22):
Yeah. Because you are essentiallyrunning your own business.
You know, it's like a startup andand you are going to eventually hire people
to support you in different ways,whether it's a manager or an attorney
or a publisher or an administrator,like whoever you decide you need to bring on board,
(35:43):
um, as a, as an employer, a CEO,you have to know what their role is and what their job is like.
You don't apply for a job without a job description.
You want to know exactly what you're doing.
And it's the same thing in reverse for you as a songwriter.
Being. Being the head of your business.
Like you, you have to know how the business works fundamentally.
(36:06):
Also, I think it's we've we've always saidhow important it is to respect
the child that goes into the roomand plays and makes beautiful music
and hold that and, and be sensitiveto that separate part of you.
And then when you need the CEO to come in,don't send the playful child out to have the money conversations,
(36:28):
you know, because it's not it's never going to go well.
But also trying what I've tried to learn throughmy career is adopt this adult that does the adult stuff.
And and don't let that affect the playfulness in the room when you're creating.
Didn't you tell me for a while you used to have asort of make make believe manager?
Oh, yeah. That would. Send.
I had an email. I've still got one. Still.
(36:49):
Yeah, yeah. I think you send it to me. Quite a lot.
Yeah I do, yeah. He's not still not got back to me.
Um, but yeah, just like anything you can doto understand those different parts of yourself, because I think we all go into it
and it's like when something happens financially, that's not right.
It oh, am I not good enough as an artist?
All of that stuff needs to be kept as separate as possiblebecause you need to really nurture that playful, creative child.
(37:13):
But it is also I think it's just aboutif you understand it, it's the same thing.
I think in as a creator,you know, there's no point just being a lyricist.
You need to have an understanding of harmony of melody as well.
So you don't have to be the master of everything,but you have an understanding of the same thing.
On the business side of it is there's no pointjust going, oh, well, I don't that's not what I want.
(37:35):
Well, it goes back to your point about like knowingwhat CEOs do and knowing
even like what what people have to do more of the admin stuffdo, because sometimes they're the people you want to get on the phone
who will actually find the information you need.
Yeah. And, you know, I think the a big issue in our industryis, is a lack of transparency.
So, you know, the more you educate yourselves.
(37:59):
You know, the transparency works when there's communication.
And if you don't know what it is, the discussions about,you know, that is really prohibitive, right?
Like, how are you going to.
And not being afraid to ask. Right.
I was so afraid to ask.
When I was younger, it was like I had a record deal.
At 23, there was loads of our lawyerssat down and said, as a business deal,
(38:21):
this is the worst thing you'll ever sign in your life,because that's what a record deal is.
You know, you're being paid.
You're being lent money to make something you won't own.
You know, none of it makes sense.
And and I had loads of questions,but I sort of thought, oh, I don't want to be that guy.
And what I've learned going through it now, it's like, findthe people that can answer the questions and ask those questions.
Yeah. Well, and also you're, you know,as the creator,
(38:45):
you actually have all the leverage.
You know, you have the intellectual property.
You own that work.
That's what they want a piece of.
Yeah. So, um, at some point the tables shiftedbecause, you know, there was a
the business was set up and the creatorsdidn't really understand how it was set up.
(39:06):
Yeah. And so they're sort of relegated to, to these deals. Right.
But now, um, it's evolved.
And I think creators,you know, there's a democratization of music
that's happening where, you know, you can you can create musicand you can release it and distribute it all on your own.
And that independence is beautiful.
(39:26):
However, if you're going to have that independenceand full ownership, you also have to understand how to monetize.
Yeah. So there's like, you know,it's the independence and independence is fabulous.
But, um, there's a whole other side.
So let's just dig in a bitmore to like the MLC and the work you do,
and especially for like these guyswho are kind of at the beginning of their journey.
(39:51):
How can it help them?
What what can you offer and what do you see really helpsthe sort of artists starting out?
Is it just information,or is there other kind of things that you would guide them towards?
Or you know what? What?
Just talk to us a little bit about that. So okay.
How many of you have music streaming on a platform right now today.
(40:13):
Okay.
So five people for those.
That's five out of nine.
Yeah. Okay. So that's, you know, a majority of youand every time your songs are streamed,
you're generating royalties.
So in order to collect those royalties,you need to be registered with,
you know, your pro on the performance sideand the MLC on the streaming side on the on the recording side.
(40:39):
So, you know, if, um, you register with theif you have a publisher or an administrator,
they're going to be collecting that money on your behalf.
If you're completely independent, meaning you don't have a deal with the music publisher,you don't have someone handling your admin.
Um, then you would need to register with the MLC directlyso that you can collect your streaming mechanical royalties.
(41:03):
And this is just for audio uses of your of your music.
But, you know, this is I think theI, the perception is that, um,
you're not going to make any money from streamingunless you're like Taylor Swift or Beyonce, but that's just not true.
Yeah. You know, I was at the,you know, NCPa annual meeting, and I think he,
(41:23):
he said this,uh, one data point that was like,
I think 45% of, um, of revenue,royalty revenue is generated
for songwriters, is generated from streaming services.
45%. That is a lot.
It's not sync.
You know, it's not.
(41:44):
It's it's streaming.
Yeah. So, um, it is absolutely,you know, completely. Um.
Uh, you are able to make money from streaming.
You just have to understand that, you know,there's a way to go about it.
You have to manage your business. You have to register.
(42:05):
You have to make sure your catalogs maintained,um, and, and collect that money.
And how how does someone become a member?
Is it what's that process?
So if you're independent, um, if you're self-administered, that's what we we call you.
If you don't have an admin deal or a publisher working on your behalf,you would go to our website, the MLC website.
(42:26):
There's a it's a simple process.
You just click on the top right hand corner of the homepage.
There's a Connect to collect button.
And you set up an accountand then you start registering songs.
Um, there's a whole there was a whole process.
Um, I won't get too deep into it now,but we have an amazing support team.
(42:46):
Um. And they can.
They can definitely help you if you have questions along the way,but, um, just get it done.
You know, just do it. And I always encourage peopleto do it in a group like all of you
sitting here today, if you're not registered while you're at the camp,like, yeah, set aside, you know, an hour over dinner or whatever, drinks
and like get your laptops outand or your phones or whatever and start get get registered.
(43:10):
You know. We we talk a lot about the, um,how being creative, having
you're seeing yourself as a business.
And then a lot of us, certainly bothyou and I have talked about this, the kind of doing the hustle.
Yeah. Like we're not some of us aren'tnaturally hustlers, like, especially in the UK. You know, we're kind of like.
Oh, I'm not going to tell anyone what I door that I'm good at anything because that's just weird.
(43:34):
And then, you know, you come to the USand you guys are much more comfortable doing that.
But still, as an artist, you're not born with this sales technique.
Um, what what sort of advicehave you got about looking at that?
You know, what you're doing and how you sell yourselfand from from the artists
you've spoken to at that level?
(43:55):
Yeah.
I think, um, I always tellartists, songwriters that they don't have to.
Nobody does it alone.
Everybody has a team.
And, you know, I think it's important.
Um, it's easy to get caught up in all the things you have to doand be overwhelmed by, like, okay, I gotta, I gotta.
(44:19):
You're creating the music.
But then it's like, oh, I gotta market myself.
And I got to do the social media posts and yeah, all the things,um, but you,
it is important to sort of create, um, like you said, build community.
It's so important to, um, have that supportand have a team around you, whether it's
whether it's just your collaborators being supportive of each otheror an actual team that you're you're hiring.
(44:45):
Um, but don't feel likeyou have to wear all the hats.
You know, at first you are going to be wearing all the hats,but, um, that's why,
you know, again, going back to the point of, like, really understandinghow the business works.
Um, you know, I think the idea is thatwe're all the idea to create
(45:06):
a healthier ecosystem is like, we're all on the same team, right?
We all want music to thrive,and everybody wants to make money and to be able to live.
So if we can all just be supportive of each other.
Um, I think that's that's like key,you know, um, that creates ask,
(45:28):
ask all the questions like you were saying, you know, ask the important questions.
Don't be afraid to advocate for yourselfand, um, and build community.
Yeah. You need all of those. You need the community,but you also need to you.
You have to be quite tenaciousand you have to put yourself out there.
(45:48):
You it's not going to come to you.
Yeah. Especially with something as, uh,competitive as a creative industry.
You have to knock on doors,you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone.
And you may be like, oh, I don't want to be that.
That person going, hello, excuse me, but but you have to be that person.
You've got to put yourself out there.
(46:09):
You've got to really, really.
Otherwise the opportunities won't arise.
And then when those opportunities do arise, you take those opportunities don't go,oh, well, I'll do it tomorrow or I'll do it the next day.
It's so important that the minuteyou get an opportunity, you take it and then.
And you don't know, maybe it's not the exact thing that you thought you wantedor you were expecting,
(46:31):
but like, you know, you wouldn't have had your job at cSACif you hadn't have taken that opportunity, right?
So it's I think it's really key that you you are.
You put yourself out there, you get out of your comfort zone.
Yeah. And also, I think in this day and agewhere you can make something in your home on a computer
and then release it like that, that's a really great achievement,but give it the love it deserves
(46:55):
by surrounding it with other energy.
That gives it a chance.
Because I think Iwe work with a lot of artists who are like, haven't released.
I just need to release something and some of them aren't doing shut.
And it's like, you just should be playing showsand should just be out there and doing it.
And I think that's where we see the more producer writer.
Yeah. Will isolate.
Yeah, because they'll sit there for three hoursin their underwear working on a kick drum, saying, yeah, yeah, you know,
(47:19):
and it's like, I don't, it's five in the morning,but I think I've nearly cracked it.
Yeah. Everyone's going to really notice this amount of. Time I've spent on.
This kick drum.
Um, and thereforethey're not often reaching out, you know,
and we have this thing it's like if you're a producer, like,I just say, get get an artist in.
Have an artist in. Every day you'll learn somethingfrom every single artist that walks in your room and wants to write a song,
(47:42):
whether it be about how you are as someone who records vocalsor how you are as an empathetic listener,
you know it's so much to learn just by having other bodies in the room.
It'll bring things out of you, right?
That you never knew you could do or existed. Exactly.
And I think there's no such thing as a bad session.
You have a bad time in the session,but what you take out of it.
(48:05):
Well, I know well, I don't want to do againor actually and I've had this quite a few times,
slightly depressing, but where I've had a session with an artist,uh, it hasn't gone well
and sort of finished it and gone.
Okay, well, never mind, that didn't work.
But okay, fine. Like that.
Then the next day I get a call from the artist going, oh, hey, listen,you know, uh,
(48:26):
I know we didn't get a song yesterday, but just so you know,uh, when you left, I wrote a really great one because. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay. Thanks.
But but.
But what you learn out of thethese situations is so important.
So get out of your isolation and get what you're saying.
Get out into the, you know, experience.
(48:47):
I think experience is such a key partof being able to get success,
because the more you experience,the more you have to offer, the more that you will have
a sort of an understanding of,of different people from different cultures to different musical genres,
is the more you have of that,the more you've got in your locker to be able to
(49:08):
to deliver as a creator.
And I think in this digital world, it's easyto sort of think, well, I've smashed out
six reels this week and written two songs,and I'm really this is really I'm really happening this week.
But actually it's like, what have you done where it's face to faceand you've made a difference.
You know, we have a thing where, you know,if you meet someone from the industry,
get the details, try and arrangeto meet up with them face to face.
(49:32):
just makes all the difference, you know?
Yeah, you can be the guy on the email,but you have a chance of showing who you really are
when you're actually in the room with someone that will stick in their minds.
Um, so yeah, we often talk about that.
Yeah. Well. Thank you.
Jamie. Thanks, Jamie.
Thank you. Sasha.
Thank you guys for some of the bestquestions we've ever had with one of these.
(49:54):
Yeah. Um, and thanks, MLC.
Yeah, thank you very much.
MLC. And please go and check MLC out. Also.
Just say a quick big thanks to Ocean Way Studios for hosting.
None of this would have happenedif it wasn't for the glorious Ocean Way studios in Asheville.
Uh, really, really grateful.
Thanks, guys.
Thanks, guys.
(50:17):
Thanks so much for listeningto Taking Care of your music Business.
Don't forget, you can watch full videoepisodes on our YouTube channel
and make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Welcome to Taking Care of Your Music Business, brought to youby the Mechanical Licensing Collective, also known as the MLC.
In this podcast, we'll divedeep into the heart of the music industry,
exploring how to get paid as a creative,making sure that you're receiving all the royalties you deserve.
We'll also dive into building a sustainable career,sharing strategies and best practices that creators can use to achieve long term success.
(00:23):
Join us as we bring you interviews with top songwriters and music executiveswho share their personal journeys and professional wisdom
on thriving in the business, all while making a living.
So get ready for some real talk about navigating the music industry.
Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode,and be sure to catch all of our full episodes on YouTube.
(00:45):
Hey, my name is Jaime Dominguezwith the MLC.
Welcome back to the MLCs podcastTaking Care of Your Music Business.
In today's episode, we're diving into a powerful conversationabout the songwriter journey and the new music business.
I'm joined by two incredible guestsSasha Skarbek, an award winning songwriter
(01:05):
behind hits for artists like Adele, Miley Cyrusand James Blunt, along with Ben Parker,
a fellow creator and advocate for songwriters.
Together, we'll explore how the industry is evolving,what it means to be an independent creator today,
and why community, education and transparencyare key to building a sustainable music career.
Let's get into it.
(01:26):
Very, very pleased to be here with awardwinning songwriter Sasha Skarbek
and the fantastic Jamie Dominguez from the MLC.
Jamie, just quickly give a little briefoverview of what the MLC does. Gladly.
Um, so the MLC, the mechanical licensing collective.
We're a nonprofit organization, and we were born out of a,um, an amendment that was passed called the Music Modernization
(01:52):
Act back in 2018.
Uh, and basically, we are designated by theU.S. Copyright Office to make sure that you, the songwriters
and the music publishers, the rights holders, are getting paid your streaming royalties.
So very important.
Um, we're completely nonprofit.
We're funded by all the streaming servicesApple Music, Spotify,
(02:16):
Amazon Music.
Um, and we make sure that that you get paid these streaming royalties.
So it's super important to understand and learn about.
We're going to talk about it today.
Amazing. Thank you.
Um, first of all, we're going to delve into the past,the mysterious past of Mr. Skarbek.
How do you want to do that?
(02:37):
Well, I've I've heard a bit of it.
And, you know, I think I'm prepared to go a bit deeper now.
Oh, no. Please.
Um, so you've been part of some pretty big recordsin the last 20 years, from James Blunt to Miley Cyrus.
Um, this is a question that we ask a lotwhen we run our songwriting course,
the Skarbek Academy run these courses, and we have guests.
(02:59):
And one of the most interesting kind of questions is, you know,what are those key moments looking back in your career
where you could see it properly shifting forward?
Yeah, it's an interesting onein terms of those sort of pivotal moments
that take place in in your career and certainly in my career.
(03:21):
The first one, I'd say was the somethingwhich I thought was going to end my music career was actually opened the door
to another part of my career.
So I was coming from a classical background,was a classical pianist, had a music scholarship
to quite a good music school.
I did that, but I also really enjoyed playing sport.
(03:41):
And so I started playing sport and I broke my handplaying rugby,
which is a game that you guys probably don't know that much aboutand just as well.
But, um, and at that point,my, uh, piano teacher just said,
you're not serious about this, so I'm not going to teach you anymore.
And I thought, oh my God, they're going to kick me out of the school.
(04:03):
I'm going to lose my scholarship. I'm not going to have anything.
Um, but fortunately, the school were quite,um, supportive.
But when I, when I by doing that, I then had I couldn't play sports.
I had a broken arm, I couldn't do much else.
And I met a guy at the schoolwho I'd never really talked to before, but he'd been there,
and he introduced me to jazz music.
(04:25):
So he just. He said, come around, you know, have a cup of tea.
I'll play some records.
So he introduced me to jazz and I was like, thatopened my mind to like, oh my God, where's the music for this?
Because no, no, no, they improvise.
I was like, oh, this is, this is brilliant. This is great.
And that led me to then when my sort of hand repairedto sitting on a piano and started to improvise and started going,
(04:47):
oh, I don't need to necessarilyjust have, you know, a manuscript in front of me.
I can do that.
That went into becoming a jazz player,jazz player, into becoming a sort of jazz funk player,
and then that into souland then became a session musician.
And that was my sort of that was literally my journeyinto the, um, into the music industry.
(05:09):
And if it hadn't been for that, I guess I wouldn'thave had my, um, my career. Right.
And then later on, as asyou got more into writing,
are there any kind of.
I mean, I always feel that it's very much about peopleand like the people you end up working with. It's not just the artists.
It could be the managers, the A&R, the people you bump into at parties.
(05:30):
It is a people business.
Are there sort of significant people along the way, artistsor otherwise, that you feel really kind of
changed the tangent of where. You were going?
Yeah, I mean, definitely for me, the biggest one was uh,I was desperately trying to become a songwriter
and get some movement with itand I was struggling quite a lot.
(05:52):
In fact, I have ended up having to do,you know, use it for a gardening show on a cable TV thing.
And it was like pretty sort of dire,you know, things going on.
But I met a guy who was in the Armyand he, uh, was a singer songwriter,
but he was still working in the Army,and he played me some of his stuff,
(06:15):
and I was like, well, yeah, it's pretty good.
And and you've got a really annoying voice,but it's a unique kind of voice.
Um, and I sort of was like, well, he goes,well, you know, I can't get anyone to work with me.
And I thought, well, good news is nobody wants to work with me either,so maybe we'll work together.
Uh, and that guy was James Blunt.
And out of that, we wrote, you know, your beautiful goodbye, My love.
(06:39):
A lot of the big songs off his first record,but with no, you know,
it was just two kind of people slightlyon the outside that found each other.
And with that, we, you know, we would like the the.
Yeah. Like the outsiders.
Yeah. Um, so in those sessions, you didn't go in going,you know, we know where this is going
(07:00):
and it's going to go to a major label and it will beyou just thought, let's write the best songs we can write completely.
And in fact, I remember still to this day, finishingyour writing, your writing, your beautiful.
And we did it pretty quicklyand we sort of went,
yeah, I think that's all right. Do you think it's all right?
And you look at yourselfand then let's, you know, let's go to the pub. That's great.
(07:22):
And so yeah, we had no real expectations of it,but we had a real expectation of what we wanted
to deliver in terms of qualityand what James's vision was right,
what he was trying to say and what he was wanting to do.
What about some of the otherthe big songs that you've been involved with, you know,
do you definitely, looking back,feel that in the room
(07:43):
there was this sort of moment where you all looked to each otherand thought, this is something really special or is it not like that?
Is it kind of just you do your bestand some go and some don't.
I think you get a sense ofif something's going in the right direction, if something's,
you know, when you're when you're when you're writingand creating.
(08:06):
At one point you get a thing. Okay.
Yeah. This is this has got something this has got.
Yeah. This is feels exciting.
And you and you and you, you've youthen start to really explore and start to get quite,
um, you know, you're on the right path with it.
I think when you finished it, sometimes you go, well that goes in the,the box of
that's got a real chance.
(08:27):
But a lot of the time I don't think you really know.
You know, you just got a slight hunches about it.
But in I think with, you know,certainly with say it's a song like Wrecking Ball again
no expectation on the session.
Um.
(08:48):
Uh, what was the session for that?
Like? So the you know,I have to be careful because my manager is sitting over in the corner
and he's to blame for quite a lot of this,but he, he the
I had two big, big sessionsthat completely were complete write offs when I moved to L.A. for a little bit
and I had these two big sessions and they were completewrite offs that took place.
(09:10):
Um, and I was really like, oh God, this is really depressing.
And I've just moved here and I've spent all this moneyand my family and come out here and,
and then had 1A3 dayand my manager goes,
don't worry, I'm going to get you a session.
So we booked a session with two peoplethat I had no idea who they were and they had not particularly,
(09:30):
you know, they weren't high leveleither writers or artists or anything like that.
We couldn't find a studio.
So I was like, okay, all right,just find me at least a piano or something like that.
So then Mike found me this.
He he he somehowknew a guy who ran a Japanese school
in the middle of, like, nowhere in LA,uh, and said, you know, do you mind if we use your piano?
(09:56):
It's like, okay, fine. Like that.
Uh, we went to this place, and I rememberit was like a sort of classroom, but with a
with a piano in the corner.
I was standing there waiting like that.
And then in walked this, uh, woman,and she said, oh, hi, my name's Marcella.
And I was like, oh, nice to meet you.
I'm like that.
And within the first five minutes, she startedcrying and crying quite hysterically.
(10:18):
And it was like, oh my God, are you okay?
What's going on?
I'm really sorry.
Um, you know, I was maybe getting married this weekend,but my fiance had become sort of, you know, abusive towards me.
And it was everything just was unraveling.
And I had to call it off,and I don't know, you know, I'm just all over the place.
(10:39):
And I said, well, oh my God.
So we just said, well, let's get out of here because this is a bit weirdand this Japanese thing.
So we went around the cornerand had coffee and we basically spent an hour just talking.
And, you know, she was telling me what had happened.
And she was highly emotional.
And we were just so wewe spent an hour of of talking it through.
And she was telling me her sort of story.
(11:00):
And we started to sort of gravitate back.
And then as we were walking back, she said something along the lines of like,you know, maybe it was my fault.
I never meant to start a war.
I just wanted him to let me in.
I guess instead of using force, I should have just let him win.
And I was like, you know what you said?
There's a really you know, it's a beautiful line that.
(11:21):
And fortunately, I had like a few chordskind of up my sleeve and that.
And that's when we started writing.
And that was the bridge for Wrecking Ball.
But that was the first thing that we wrote.
And once we got that started,that I kind of knew something was going to happen, right?
Something special because hates it.
(11:42):
But it was the pain that Paul Marcella was going throughthat we were able to channel and hopefully what myself and and Stephen,
who was the other guy who came in on it and,and and what he did was absolutely incredible was that,
you know, I was sitting at the pianoand whenever I sit on the piano, it's all quite depressing and polite.
And then Maciel comes and he just,you know, he's an incredible pianist,
(12:06):
and he just turned it into this big kind of bulldozerING sound on, on this Japanese piano.
Um, and, and that became the thing of like.
Oh, and then what do you call those things that knock walls down and bulldozers?
Now, that's not going to work really well.
A wrecking ball, wrecking ball. Is that going to work?
He said, well, yeah, it could be.
And then if you go wreck me, yeah, that can work. Okay.
(12:29):
And that's how that whole song came up.
But that was definitely one of those moments where I go,okay, here's I don't know where there's going to be a hit song or not.
Yeah, I know it's going to be a good song.
And you knew that it had come from a very genuine place,which, like the best songs do lyrically, you kind of
want to be hit by a real story and the personsinging it being real about it. Definitely.
(12:51):
Um, so just thinking aboutyou've worked with a number of very different artists
at different levels of their career.
Um, how does the dynamic, dynamic shift in the room?
Like, obviously, sometimes you might writewith a younger artist who's quite
new to it, so you have to be more kind of guidanceand avuncular and sort of have that.
(13:16):
And then you could be in a room with massive superstar.
Do you how do you navigate that?
And do you feel intimidated sometimes when you're in those spaces with thewith the big names?
I try not to,but I think we all probably do a bit.
Yeah. Um, I think for me,what's been really important and what I've learned from other great
(13:38):
either producers or writers is setting upan environment where artists and writers feel safe
and they've they're free to createand be fearless in their creativity.
And if you can do that, whether it's for a young, up and coming artistsor you can do it for a really already established artist.
(13:58):
Yeah, that is to me is where youthen give the best possible chance of
of some success in terms of a creative song that's going to be worth something.
What about like risk taking?
Because obviously with new artists,I always find when I'm working with someone new,
you sort of want to make something that stands out.
But obviously when it's an already accomplished artist, there's that question.
(14:23):
It's like, do you listen to their back catalogand try and make something that feels like
an Adele song when Adele is in the room?
Or do you try and push it and be risktaking and go, let's not have a piano.
Excuse me. Language.
Let's not have a piano.
You can edit that.
Let's not have a piano or a guitar on this track.
It's just your vocal and a beat.
And I guess it's about selling that.
(14:46):
Yeah, I think again.
That's about confidence.
I definitely would like and try to be a bitmore on the, a bit more fearless with it.
So because I get bored just trying to copy something.
So I'm always trying to look for something unique.
Uh, and to me that's the in creativity,what you're always looking for is, is, is the unique
(15:08):
and and sometimes that's it's the mistake that gets done.
But it's being open to those, those areas.
So if you know whether it's somebody sitting on the guitarand they play the wrong chord, you're like, well, hang on a minute.
That's wrong. But maybe it's not wrong. Yeah, right.
That's the one that we go with or or just that,you know, those brilliant stories of somebody like Prince
(15:31):
who would Write a riff on his on the bass,and then write a whole song over the top of it.
Finish it all, record it all.
And then he'd get and he'd be at the mixing desk,and he would just go, do you know what?
Where's that bass riff that I started the song with?
It's on channel ten or whatever.
That mute.
Yeah. That's it.
(15:53):
That's the song right there.
And that kind of level of confidence and fearlessness,I think is so important to be able to be creative and move forward.
And like this industry is renownedfor being full of interesting characters, personalities, egos.
Um, whatwhat's your kind of advice for getting through those moments
(16:18):
where there's tension because of the characters in the room?
You must have experienced a bit of that in your timefor a short time on this planet.
Um.
You know, a lot of what we do,whether you're an artist, whether you're a,
(16:39):
a producer, a writer, anything.
I think even in business stuff,you're going to have tricky characters,
uh, different types of charactersthat you're going to come into contact with.
I think the key iscommunication is trying to
to not always look at itfrom your angle, from your point of view,
(17:01):
to try and understand, even if, if feeling like they're beinga bit too aggressive or a bit too,
you know, pigheaded about it.
But try and have a look at it from that, that angle.
And as well, a big part of what I found is is again, diffusing.
You know, it's like when the temperature is too high and,and, and people's emotions are up too high.
(17:24):
We're trying to fuze thatand it's trying to bring that down,
even if it means go, hey, listen, just give me.
You know, rather than mebeing in your face and being.
Let's just back away for a few minutes.
Come back to. It. And also, like taking the break and changing the vibe.
You're a big fan of sort of leavingthe studio and going for a walk or, you know,
(17:45):
taking the guitar to the park or just shifting the energy. Totally.
So I think it's all about shifting, shifting, taking the temperature downso that you don't, you know, because it's that, you know, whether it's a confrontation
or whether it's actually just something which is, which is good,and you're trying to get this emotion out.
Um, you know, if it's too, too powerful,it can be quite hard to then express yourself.
(18:08):
Yeah. Because you've got this, you know,by being able to take that just down, it's
finding that sort of sweet spot where you're able to go,okay, I'm able to release it at the same time.
I'm like, I'm in control of it rather than it justparalyzing me.
Amazing.
Um, just final question for you.
(18:28):
Just so you know what's happening and where we're at.
It's always good, isn't it? As a human, to know those things.
Um, you know, we're we're like, look.
Talking about career longevity and and you've been doing this foryou've had a really nice, long career
that you've built and worked hard at.
What would you say your kind of big lessonsfor sustainability in this industry and in this?
(18:54):
You know, if you're a writer and an artist.
I think integrity is the most important thing that you can have.
Um, and that that goes to your,your art, that you do your creativity,
but also how you treat people,how you behave in
the music industry is incredibly important because the,the, the person who might be the studio assistant,
(19:23):
you don't know in 2 or 3 years time,they suddenly become the top producer. In the label.
Yeah. It's, um, how you behave.
To to every to everyone isI think is a really, really key key part of it.
And that's, um,you know, it's a bit of a cliche, but it's like, you know,
treat somebody how you'd want to be treated back.
(19:45):
Yeah. Um, and I think if you have that level ofif you can do that and have humility and have integrity,
then that will lead you,uh, in good stead for, um, being able to navigate a,
you know, a roller coaster of a,an industry because you're going to have your ups
and you're going to have your downs.
How you ride those waves is, is really important.
(20:06):
But you need people. And this is also really important.
You need to support other peoplebecause when you're having a bit of a,
you know, downturn,you know, those people will come and support you.
And it's really important. And that's why doing something likewith the academy or building community.
Building networks.
(20:27):
Building friendships is so key to,I think, having a successful career.
Amazing. Thank you.
Well done. Now.
Were you going to ask if you could leave now?
Um, Jamie, over to you.
Oh, no. Yes.
Tell us a bit about your backgroundand your kind of career path.
(20:49):
Um, so I didn't plan any of this.
I didn't say I want to be in rights management, and, you know,make sure artists get paid their streaming royalties.
Um, no. It all happened, really?
Like, you know, in life, you just sort of follow.
Follow the river, follow the path.
(21:09):
And, um, I was really fortunate.
Like everything connects in hindsight,when you look back at everything and like you were saying,
you meet one person and they open a doorand you just never know where that door is going to lead.
And so when I, when I was just graduating collegeat the time, I, um, I went to school in Austin, Texas,
which is a very big musiccity import. Music city.
(21:33):
Um, and I musichad always been a part of my life, like at a young age, I,
you know, it was there was no way around it.
I had to learn how to play the piano.
Did I practice? Absolutely not.
I was I was at the time, I was also like figure skating.
I was I was really into ice skating.
Um, that was like I wanted to be in the Olympics.
And so I was so focused on that,and I could not sit in front of the piano
(21:57):
for an hour every day in practice.
So the teacher would come and she would be like, you have not practicedany of the songs that I left you since last week,
and my nails were long and I just, like, didn't care.
But, um, but I love music.
And my dad was, you know,played in bands when he was young and taught himself guitar
and would make me sing along with him in front of the family holidays.
(22:18):
And I don't sing that well, like, I'm okay, but I'm not a singer,so I knew that wasn't like what I was meant to do.
Um, but I was such a music,music head growing up, I was the one making playlists from my not playlist.
Mix tapes, mix tapes, mix tapes.
I'm not that I have no idea what you're talking about.
Yeah.
Mixtapes.
(22:40):
So I always knew I wanted some.
I wanted to be in it somehow.
Um, I thought I actually wanted to make films.
I wanted to be a director, so I could, I could, I hadI always had visuals when I was, like, listening to music.
Um, so I thought, oh, I'm just going to make moviesand put all my favorite songs on these movies.
Um, but anyway, so I went to UTand, and I started having all these, you know,
(23:04):
internships that, you know, I worked at the radio station, I and then my,one of my internships was at an entertainment PR firm,
which, like, opened a doorfor so many different avenues that I didn't know existed.
I, I started working at the Recording Academy,the Texas chapter, actually,
which, um, led me to, uh,South by Southwest one year. Right.
(23:27):
And, um, you know, that is the beautiful thing about you.
You know, you're in Nashville.
You have so many resources here.
You know, you have a music industry here and infrastructure,and a lot of places don't have that.
So, um, being able to take advantage of thatwhen I was, when I was just in school was, was really cool.
Um, that rhymed.
Um, so.
(23:49):
Yeah, there we go.
A little rudimentary, but yeah, that's why I'm not a songwriter.
Um, so. Yeah.
And then, uh, when I was working for the Recording Academy,I met my future boss at cSAC because at the time,
he was a governor of the New York chapterof the Recording Academy. Right.
Um, and and I was manning the boothat the, at the trade show at South by Southwest.
(24:14):
And, you know, he was kind of giving me a hard time,like jokingly, and I was like, not having it.
I was like, who is this guy? Why is he bothering me?
Um, but then we ended up,like, becoming friends and hanging out, and I took him, you know,
I was like 22 or somethingand took him all over the city and with my friends.
And, uh, we went to see a bunch of gigs togetherbecause it was South by,
(24:38):
um, and then a couple weeks later, I called him up.
Not a couple of weeks, actually. This was months later,um, because I was looking for a new job.
Um, and he,he was like, well, do you want to move to New York?
And I had no idea what he was.
I didn't know, I. Just quickly, what is Csak?
So Csak is a performing rights organization.
(24:59):
They pay, you know, you the songwriter, your performance royaltieswhen your songs are performed on radio, television, live, live performances.
And I had no idea that side of the business.
I mean, I didn't really know anything about the business.
I was working for a PR firm,and then I worked at the Recording Academy, so.
And I was barely out of college,so I had no idea what any of this meant.
Um, and but he said, do you want to move to New York?
(25:22):
And I was like, yeah.
I, you know, I've been obsessed with New Yorksince I was a baby watching Sesame Street.
So, um, so I literally moved.
I was in New York, like two months later,and, um, started the job as his assistant
and just had to learn that side of the business.
And I, you know, I remembersomeone told me because I didn't know what cSAC was,
(25:46):
I took this job and someone told me to, um,read the Donald Passman book.
Right. All you need to know about the music industry.
I didn't read the whole book.
I just went straight to theto the back to the index and looked up cSAC
and what it was, and there was nothing about it.
It was like this little.
There was a little mention and that was it.
Because back then it was it was all about ASCAP.
(26:08):
And BMI was kind of like this unknown.
Um, yeah.
So that's how it all startedand I ended up staying at CC for 19 years.
Wow. Um, and it was a creative job.
Like, at first it was admin because I was, I was sort of assisting.
Um, Trevor Gail was his name.
Our our dear friend Trevor, and he, um,you know, but I was fortunate enough to have this mentor
(26:32):
and a really great support system.
And to your point, Sasha, about, you know,just really that's how the industry works.
Yeah, it it's built on relationships.
And it's so interesting about just being the more openyou are to any opportunity that comes along.
That's the key. It's so important to have to do that.
And maybe you don't know what.
I don't know what Csec is or I don't know how to do that job.
(26:54):
But you know what I'll learn on the fly.
I'll just being open to it.
So totally.
And you know, it'sI had no idea how valuable
that knowledge would be of understandingperformance royalties and rights and,
and, um, it at the time, that wasn't the sexy job to have.
You wanted to work at a record label.
(27:15):
You wanted to do A&R, the record label.
I didn't really I don't know, I didn't really have.
I didn't want to be in that system.
I kind of liked being the underdogand and learning the side. I thought it was really interesting.
And not to mention that I had one on one relationships with the songwriters,not the artists, you know.
(27:35):
And to me, that was really specialbecause, um, you know, it's it's different.
Yeah. It's a totally different dynamic.
I'm not I don't want to put my foot in my mouth.
I don't want to have.
Any very special people.
You know what I'm saying, though? It's a different dynamic.
And and songwriters, I there's a deep respect for that craftbecause, um,
(28:00):
you know, all of these songs just impact us in such deep ways.
You can't. There's no artist without the song.
Exactly. There's, you know, where would we be without the song?
So, um, that was really valuable,like establishing this, this relationship
with the songwriters, because, you know, this is, um,the the pro is oftentimes the first, your first gateway into the music industry.
(28:24):
It's like your first point of contact for a lot of people.
Um, so I was able to really develop these,these really special relationships with songwriters
very early on and watch themgrow and help them grow and give them guidance.
And, and because I wasn't a member of their,like, team, like their paid team,
you know, I wasn't I didn't really have skin in the game in that sense.
(28:46):
I wasn't I wasn't making any money off of them.
Yeah. Um, I was really just there to support.
So the our meet,my meetings with songwriters oftentimes became like therapy sessions, to be honest.
You know, like, they would come into my office and we wouldthey would just vent about
whatever they were going through.
(29:07):
Um, Work wise,you know, with collaborators or with their manager
or, you know, their lawyer or whateverit was with their record label, with their publisher,
like they they felt safe talking to me about that stuff.
And so I, you know, that's something that I to this day,like, I don't take that for granted because, um,
it is so importantthat they feel, you know,
(29:30):
creators feel supportedand, and that there is a safe space for them.
Yeah. I mean, I think most producers,you spend a lot of time almost in the
as a sort of therapist, too,because that's also part of being able to gain trust.
But also it is it's it's part of that that where are you going?
(29:52):
Where are their emotions at?
It tends to be in that area.
So I think there's a lot of us are therapists in this in this business.
That's right. Yeah I know, and that's sort of how, you know,I sort of went into a whole
I went off off the rails.
Um, but we'll go back on track.
So that was. That was what? Where I ended up.
(30:13):
I ended up at the pro, and then, um,that was 19 years.
And then the pandemic hitand I decided it was time for a change.
I was, like, ready to to try something new.
And, um, I love cSAC.
I went to a company called Sound Royalties, which was a completelylike the opposite end of the spectrum.
It was a music finance company.
(30:34):
Right. And, um, but it was during a time where, you know,during the pandemic, everybody, that's when the catalog sales
were the big hot topic, right?
Everybody was trying to sell catalog or people were buying catalogs.
So that gave me a whole other knowledgebase of, you know, understanding
how to leverage your royalty incomeand how valuable that is as an asset.
(30:59):
You know.
Um, do you kind of when you're in that.
Yeah. Do you go, wow, this is a really biggrowth opportunity, or do you kind of
just throw yourself into it and go,oh, I've just learned a bunch more stuff about things.
Yeah. You know, because we don't always dothat as people, do we?
Um, yeah.
No, I just threw myself in it.
(31:19):
Yeah. You know, like when we were setting up for the podcastand I'm like, no, let's just throw ourselves into the fire, right?
Yeah, I think that's the best way to learn.
For me, anyway.
The guy's never done it before to host it, you know?
Yeah, exactly. That's crazy.
I hate public speaking, by the way.
I do it all the time now. You know, it's part of my job.
It's. It's the main facet of my job.
But, um.
(31:39):
Yeah. So you just, you know, you you just do it.
And, um, I knew thatit was something that needed, you know, you have to be uncomfortable.
You have to put yourself, like, taking risks.
It's all about taking risks, right?
It's how you grow. It's how you learn.
And, um. Yeah. And then.
And then, uh, I was there for a few years,and, um, and then my former colleague from cSAC, this is how you.
(32:03):
This is why you never knowwhat will happen. And everything connects.
And that ecosystem that that network you buildis so, so important.
Um, former colleague from cSAC who is now at the MLC.
Ellen. Truly, she came to meand told me there was this opportunity, and I, um,
(32:23):
I was like, that sounds interesting.
And right up my alley, and I missed I missed songwriters, to be honest.
I really missed, like, being in the mix of that.
And I still found ways to do itin my sound royalties gig, but, um, but yeah, so that's that's sort of
how I ended up at the MLC and and it isyou know what I love the MLC is just doing such important work
(32:47):
and it's so it's still so new.
And I love building things.
Um, and it's transformative.
And, you know, I think we're all aligned herewhere we're really passionate about building a healthier,
Sustainable ecosystem for the for the creator.
For the songwriter.
So, um, so yeah, I started that's how I ended up at MLC.
(33:09):
It's been a little over a year and I, I love it.
I think it's like, you know, it couldn'tit couldn't be a better home for me right now.
And, um, I love being able to go out into the,the creator community and like, educate them
and empower them and give them this informationthat it's just, you know,
I can go on and on and on about, um,all the reasons why it's so important
(33:32):
and all the stories I've heard over the last couple of decades from songwriters themselvesand the things that they've, they've struggled with
and how they've had to learn the hard way.
And if maybe they had known this information before,they could have made more informed decisions.
They could have helped their collaborators,you know, like, it's it it really is important.
(33:52):
Because it's such a moving landscape at the moment. It's so hard.
So it's so important to, I think, to have an understandingof you as a songwriter,
as a as a creator, as a as an artist, as.
As. Okay, what is my business as well?
How where is you know.
Where are the income streams coming from?
How can I what are my expectations?
(34:13):
What can I because I think we certainly past we were just sort ofoh well hopefully that will sort itself out.
And you know, maybe you had a publisher or whatever,but now you've got to be far more aware
of all those different areas that.
You and I think, you know,we we talk a lot about it when we run
these courses is that, you know, art and businesshave always been strange partners.
(34:35):
And I think it's easy for us as creatives to sort of go,oh, that's something someone else deals with.
But actually, in this day and age, with the way your income streams work,if you're creative, it's really important
to have the knowledge and not be vague about that stuff.
But what I see constantly and what we've seen, you know,is that as soon as this vagueness,
(34:56):
there's kind of resentment Mhm.
And there's an opportunity to compare and despair.
And the more you know and the more clarityyou have about the income streams,
I think the more there's like a strong ballast to build your career on.
So it's lovely that that's kind ofyour mission is to help people understand that.
Yeah. I mean and we always preach this idea of, of the creatorsadopting a CEO mindset.
(35:22):
Yeah. Because you are essentiallyrunning your own business.
You know, it's like a startup andand you are going to eventually hire people
to support you in different ways,whether it's a manager or an attorney
or a publisher or an administrator,like whoever you decide you need to bring on board,
(35:43):
um, as a, as an employer, a CEO,you have to know what their role is and what their job is like.
You don't apply for a job without a job description.
You want to know exactly what you're doing.
And it's the same thing in reverse for you as a songwriter.
Being. Being the head of your business.
Like you, you have to know how the business works fundamentally.
(36:06):
Also, I think it's we've we've always saidhow important it is to respect
the child that goes into the roomand plays and makes beautiful music
and hold that and, and be sensitiveto that separate part of you.
And then when you need the CEO to come in,don't send the playful child out to have the money conversations,
(36:28):
you know, because it's not it's never going to go well.
But also trying what I've tried to learn throughmy career is adopt this adult that does the adult stuff.
And and don't let that affect the playfulness in the room when you're creating.
Didn't you tell me for a while you used to have asort of make make believe manager?
Oh, yeah. That would. Send.
I had an email. I've still got one. Still.
(36:49):
Yeah, yeah. I think you send it to me. Quite a lot.
Yeah I do, yeah. He's not still not got back to me.
Um, but yeah, just like anything you can doto understand those different parts of yourself, because I think we all go into it
and it's like when something happens financially, that's not right.
It oh, am I not good enough as an artist?
All of that stuff needs to be kept as separate as possiblebecause you need to really nurture that playful, creative child.
(37:13):
But it is also I think it's just aboutif you understand it, it's the same thing.
I think in as a creator,you know, there's no point just being a lyricist.
You need to have an understanding of harmony of melody as well.
So you don't have to be the master of everything,but you have an understanding of the same thing.
On the business side of it is there's no pointjust going, oh, well, I don't that's not what I want.
(37:35):
Well, it goes back to your point about like knowingwhat CEOs do and knowing
even like what what people have to do more of the admin stuffdo, because sometimes they're the people you want to get on the phone
who will actually find the information you need.
Yeah. And, you know, I think the a big issue in our industryis, is a lack of transparency.
So, you know, the more you educate yourselves.
(37:59):
You know, the transparency works when there's communication.
And if you don't know what it is, the discussions about,you know, that is really prohibitive, right?
Like, how are you going to.
And not being afraid to ask. Right.
I was so afraid to ask.
When I was younger, it was like I had a record deal.
At 23, there was loads of our lawyerssat down and said, as a business deal,
(38:21):
this is the worst thing you'll ever sign in your life,because that's what a record deal is.
You know, you're being paid.
You're being lent money to make something you won't own.
You know, none of it makes sense.
And and I had loads of questions,but I sort of thought, oh, I don't want to be that guy.
And what I've learned going through it now, it's like, findthe people that can answer the questions and ask those questions.
Yeah. Well, and also you're, you know,as the creator,
(38:45):
you actually have all the leverage.
You know, you have the intellectual property.
You own that work.
That's what they want a piece of.
Yeah. So, um, at some point the tables shiftedbecause, you know, there was a
the business was set up and the creatorsdidn't really understand how it was set up.
(39:06):
Yeah. And so they're sort of relegated to, to these deals. Right.
But now, um, it's evolved.
And I think creators,you know, there's a democratization of music
that's happening where, you know, you can you can create musicand you can release it and distribute it all on your own.
And that independence is beautiful.
(39:26):
However, if you're going to have that independenceand full ownership, you also have to understand how to monetize.
Yeah. So there's like, you know,it's the independence and independence is fabulous.
But, um, there's a whole other side.
So let's just dig in a bitmore to like the MLC and the work you do,
and especially for like these guyswho are kind of at the beginning of their journey.
(39:51):
How can it help them?
What what can you offer and what do you see really helpsthe sort of artists starting out?
Is it just information,or is there other kind of things that you would guide them towards?
Or you know what? What?
Just talk to us a little bit about that. So okay.
How many of you have music streaming on a platform right now today.
(40:13):
Okay.
So five people for those.
That's five out of nine.
Yeah. Okay. So that's, you know, a majority of youand every time your songs are streamed,
you're generating royalties.
So in order to collect those royalties,you need to be registered with,
you know, your pro on the performance sideand the MLC on the streaming side on the on the recording side.
(40:39):
So, you know, if, um, you register with theif you have a publisher or an administrator,
they're going to be collecting that money on your behalf.
If you're completely independent, meaning you don't have a deal with the music publisher,you don't have someone handling your admin.
Um, then you would need to register with the MLC directlyso that you can collect your streaming mechanical royalties.
(41:03):
And this is just for audio uses of your of your music.
But, you know, this is I think theI, the perception is that, um,
you're not going to make any money from streamingunless you're like Taylor Swift or Beyonce, but that's just not true.
Yeah. You know, I was at the,you know, NCPa annual meeting, and I think he,
(41:23):
he said this,uh, one data point that was like,
I think 45% of, um, of revenue,royalty revenue is generated
for songwriters, is generated from streaming services.
45%. That is a lot.
It's not sync.
You know, it's not.
(41:44):
It's it's streaming.
Yeah. So, um, it is absolutely,you know, completely. Um.
Uh, you are able to make money from streaming.
You just have to understand that, you know,there's a way to go about it.
You have to manage your business. You have to register.
(42:05):
You have to make sure your catalogs maintained,um, and, and collect that money.
And how how does someone become a member?
Is it what's that process?
So if you're independent, um, if you're self-administered, that's what we we call you.
If you don't have an admin deal or a publisher working on your behalf,you would go to our website, the MLC website.
(42:26):
There's a it's a simple process.
You just click on the top right hand corner of the homepage.
There's a Connect to collect button.
And you set up an accountand then you start registering songs.
Um, there's a whole there was a whole process.
Um, I won't get too deep into it now,but we have an amazing support team.
(42:46):
Um. And they can.
They can definitely help you if you have questions along the way,but, um, just get it done.
You know, just do it. And I always encourage peopleto do it in a group like all of you
sitting here today, if you're not registered while you're at the camp,like, yeah, set aside, you know, an hour over dinner or whatever, drinks
and like get your laptops outand or your phones or whatever and start get get registered.
(43:10):
You know. We we talk a lot about the, um,how being creative, having
you're seeing yourself as a business.
And then a lot of us, certainly bothyou and I have talked about this, the kind of doing the hustle.
Yeah. Like we're not some of us aren'tnaturally hustlers, like, especially in the UK. You know, we're kind of like.
Oh, I'm not going to tell anyone what I door that I'm good at anything because that's just weird.
(43:34):
And then, you know, you come to the USand you guys are much more comfortable doing that.
But still, as an artist, you're not born with this sales technique.
Um, what what sort of advicehave you got about looking at that?
You know, what you're doing and how you sell yourselfand from from the artists
you've spoken to at that level?
(43:55):
Yeah.
I think, um, I always tellartists, songwriters that they don't have to.
Nobody does it alone.
Everybody has a team.
And, you know, I think it's important.
Um, it's easy to get caught up in all the things you have to doand be overwhelmed by, like, okay, I gotta, I gotta.
(44:19):
You're creating the music.
But then it's like, oh, I gotta market myself.
And I got to do the social media posts and yeah, all the things,um, but you,
it is important to sort of create, um, like you said, build community.
It's so important to, um, have that supportand have a team around you, whether it's
whether it's just your collaborators being supportive of each otheror an actual team that you're you're hiring.
(44:45):
Um, but don't feel likeyou have to wear all the hats.
You know, at first you are going to be wearing all the hats,but, um, that's why,
you know, again, going back to the point of, like, really understandinghow the business works.
Um, you know, I think the idea is thatwe're all the idea to create
(45:06):
a healthier ecosystem is like, we're all on the same team, right?
We all want music to thrive,and everybody wants to make money and to be able to live.
So if we can all just be supportive of each other.
Um, I think that's that's like key,you know, um, that creates ask,
(45:28):
ask all the questions like you were saying, you know, ask the important questions.
Don't be afraid to advocate for yourselfand, um, and build community.
Yeah. You need all of those. You need the community,but you also need to you.
You have to be quite tenaciousand you have to put yourself out there.
(45:48):
You it's not going to come to you.
Yeah. Especially with something as, uh,competitive as a creative industry.
You have to knock on doors,you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone.
And you may be like, oh, I don't want to be that.
That person going, hello, excuse me, but but you have to be that person.
You've got to put yourself out there.
(46:09):
You've got to really, really.
Otherwise the opportunities won't arise.
And then when those opportunities do arise, you take those opportunities don't go,oh, well, I'll do it tomorrow or I'll do it the next day.
It's so important that the minuteyou get an opportunity, you take it and then.
And you don't know, maybe it's not the exact thing that you thought you wantedor you were expecting,
(46:31):
but like, you know, you wouldn't have had your job at cSACif you hadn't have taken that opportunity, right?
So it's I think it's really key that you you are.
You put yourself out there, you get out of your comfort zone.
Yeah. And also, I think in this day and agewhere you can make something in your home on a computer
and then release it like that, that's a really great achievement,but give it the love it deserves
(46:55):
by surrounding it with other energy.
That gives it a chance.
Because I think Iwe work with a lot of artists who are like, haven't released.
I just need to release something and some of them aren't doing shut.
And it's like, you just should be playing showsand should just be out there and doing it.
And I think that's where we see the more producer writer.
Yeah. Will isolate.
Yeah, because they'll sit there for three hoursin their underwear working on a kick drum, saying, yeah, yeah, you know,
(47:19):
and it's like, I don't, it's five in the morning,but I think I've nearly cracked it.
Yeah. Everyone's going to really notice this amount of. Time I've spent on.
This kick drum.
Um, and thereforethey're not often reaching out, you know,
and we have this thing it's like if you're a producer, like,I just say, get get an artist in.
Have an artist in. Every day you'll learn somethingfrom every single artist that walks in your room and wants to write a song,
(47:42):
whether it be about how you are as someone who records vocalsor how you are as an empathetic listener,
you know it's so much to learn just by having other bodies in the room.
It'll bring things out of you, right?
That you never knew you could do or existed. Exactly.
And I think there's no such thing as a bad session.
You have a bad time in the session,but what you take out of it.
(48:05):
Well, I know well, I don't want to do againor actually and I've had this quite a few times,
slightly depressing, but where I've had a session with an artist,uh, it hasn't gone well
and sort of finished it and gone.
Okay, well, never mind, that didn't work.
But okay, fine. Like that.
Then the next day I get a call from the artist going, oh, hey, listen,you know, uh,
(48:26):
I know we didn't get a song yesterday, but just so you know,uh, when you left, I wrote a really great one because. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay. Thanks.
But but.
But what you learn out of thethese situations is so important.
So get out of your isolation and get what you're saying.
Get out into the, you know, experience.
(48:47):
I think experience is such a key partof being able to get success,
because the more you experience,the more you have to offer, the more that you will have
a sort of an understanding of,of different people from different cultures to different musical genres,
is the more you have of that,the more you've got in your locker to be able to
(49:08):
to deliver as a creator.
And I think in this digital world, it's easyto sort of think, well, I've smashed out
six reels this week and written two songs,and I'm really this is really I'm really happening this week.
But actually it's like, what have you done where it's face to faceand you've made a difference.
You know, we have a thing where, you know,if you meet someone from the industry,
get the details, try and arrangeto meet up with them face to face.
(49:32):
just makes all the difference, you know?
Yeah, you can be the guy on the email,but you have a chance of showing who you really are
when you're actually in the room with someone that will stick in their minds.
Um, so yeah, we often talk about that.
Yeah. Well. Thank you.
Jamie. Thanks, Jamie.
Thank you. Sasha.
Thank you guys for some of the bestquestions we've ever had with one of these.
(49:54):
Yeah. Um, and thanks, MLC.
Yeah, thank you very much.
MLC. And please go and check MLC out. Also.
Just say a quick big thanks to Ocean Way Studios for hosting.
None of this would have happenedif it wasn't for the glorious Ocean Way studios in Asheville.
Uh, really, really grateful.
Thanks, guys.
Thanks, guys.
(50:17):
Thanks so much for listeningto Taking Care of your music Business.
Don't forget, you can watch full videoepisodes on our YouTube channel
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