October 17, 2025 • 26 mins
In this conversation, Chelsea and Jovanna discuss the complexities of control within the creative industry, particularly for women. They explore the challenges of navigating auditions, the fear associated with control, and the importance of collaboration in filmmaking. The discussion highlights the balance between asserting one's voice and letting go of control to foster creativity. They also touch on the role of leadership on set and the impact of mental health on creative processes.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to the creative sisterhood where women take
center stage on screen and behind the scenes.
I'm Jovanna Burke, actress, filmmaker, producer and founder
of Grand Blvd. Entertainment.
And I'm Chelsea Hobbs, writer partner in Grand Blvd. and your
copilot on this wild ride through the entertainment
industry. Between the two of us, we spent
over 50 years carving our own paths in this business, and now
(00:25):
we're handing you the blueprint.Each week we dive into real
conversations about acting, creating your own work, building
your brand, and surviving this industry with your soul intact.
Whether you're an aspiring actress and indie filmmaker or
just done waiting for permissionto tell your story.
This space is for you, because here on The Creative Sisterhood,
(00:45):
we don't play by the rules. We make our own.
Let's get into it. Welcome back, Oh my.
Gosh, it's been I don't even know where to start.
I know, I know. I feel like your life is always
full of yeah colors for sure. Like, we'll call it colorful,
(01:10):
but so. Yeah.
So what's going on? What happened?
I just, I personally just had totape 3 auditions in the last 24
hours and it's been a lot. That you're like, will I ever
hear anything back from this or am I just throwing it out into
the world and I mean you? Know what actually I want to
hear something crazy is I actually heard feedback last
(01:31):
Week 2 times which is unheard ofand it incredible I was like Oh
my God what? That did happen to me recently
as well with that one that I think we both taped for that one
showed for different roles and like I got feedback for it and I
was like wait, tell the casting.Thank you so much for.
Feedback. God it's incredible.
I got feedback from casting on one and from an executive
(01:53):
producer on another. And I sent it to our agent.
And I was like, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I guess I'm doing
something right if I'm getting this feedback.
And she's like, you should thankhim like profusely because we
would have never known that you'd gone to network for this
particular role had he not said no, right?
Well. And that's the.
Thing is like my way, but like it doesn't matter.
Like it's it's it's nice to. Hear you're saying like.
Like growing shit at the wall. Exactly.
(02:16):
And like you're saying like, oh,it's nice to hear that, like I
did something right. And so that's the problem is
like, we think if we don't hear that, we're not doing something
right. But like Deb said, if he didn't
write you and give you the feedback, you would have never
heard that you went to network. So sometimes it's like you're
doing great work, you're up for things, and you have absolutely
no idea. You think you're just throwing
dog shit everywhere. Honestly, it is.
(02:38):
So, so hard to be in this industry sometimes.
Some days are just like very difficult and some days are
great, you know, like when you get good feedback, you're like,
oh, look at me, yeah, maybe I know what I'm doing sometimes.
And other days it's, it's quite difficult, like in our industry,
you know, oh, it's so. Hard.
Well, so that's actually what wewanted to talk today about.
Perfect little segue into control because it's, you know,
(03:03):
something that we don't have ever really.
So yeah, I think it's a really good conversation because so
many people, whether you're an actor or producer or like any
type of creative, an artist, a musician, Control is such a big
conversation. Oh my God.
It's such a funny thing in our industry, right?
Because like on so many different levels, I definitely
(03:26):
feel like, you know, as a femaleartist in this industry, like,
you know, with controlled, you're told to take up space via
boss, be decisive, but then you're also told be flexible,
don't be difficult, collaborate.And like we're constantly trying
to find out where the line is without break.
Control, but like, don't be. We're being.
Labeled hard to work with, you know like where like what is the
line right. So it's an interesting place to
(03:47):
be for us and it's definitely, you know, not just us.
Anybody in this industry controls a weird word, So yeah,
let's dig it is. Well, OK, so like I feel like
just in general, as women, thereis a rate like a very negative
connotation when it comes to theword control, because for some
(04:10):
reason a man taking control is agood thing.
And like something that's expected of them or something
that is, is just typically in a work setting, not considered to
be a negative thing. And then when you switch it to a
female, it suddenly takes this other, don't you think?
Like it takes another meeting orit's like she's controlling.
(04:32):
Yeah, exactly is. That.
Lying females too, yeah. So how do we feel comfortable
taking control and owning it andfeeling like a boss stitch about
it as opposed to somebody that'snagging or being read as
difficult? I don't know.
I mean, I think we can break it down a little bit.
Like, I mean, just for me personally, I would say control
(04:54):
means different things. Like, you know, like when I was
in my 20s, let's say control is very different than it is now in
my 40s, when I was in my 20s, I think I really like thought
control equaled success, like being in control, being it,
right, You know, like feel like control sometimes blocks things
though, like surprise and, and like in your work too, right,
(05:16):
Because if you're being too controlling, like it's an
interesting thing. But as I've gotten older, I
think that I I've realized a lotof the time control is really
rooted in fear, like for for me or like for women, it's.
So like. Fear of being misunderstood,
like fear of of, you know, our work being watered down, fear of
not being heard, fear of being dismissed.
(05:36):
But is that? Control or why you?
Try to control things in your life, right?
Yeah, I'm not saying. Difference between like having
control and like the fear of like of losing control and like
needing to like grip control. Do you know what I mean?
Like there's like being in control is one thing, and trying
to have control is another thing.
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I think being in control
(05:59):
at this age to me is like being specific about the things you
want to be in control of becauseyou can't, you realize as you
age, you know that you can't be in control of everything or you
go and see. And so you have to learn to let
go of things in order to, you know, fight for control and
specific moments and specific situations.
I mean, if we relate it to acting like control at this age
(06:21):
is like, I can control what I know about a character.
I can control like you know whatI can bring to the table.
That's what I was going to say. Can't control what they're going
to think of my appearance. I can't control what they're
going to think of my choices. I can't.
You know what I mean? Like I.
Can know like truly we have no control like as as artists, like
you're right, the only thing that we can control is what we
(06:42):
put out there. And then it's, you know, letting
go, doing your, you know, the things that you need to do to
make sure that mentally you're OK and that, yeah, that you're
not, you're not losing your mindfeeling like you, you know, just
having the peace that knowing that you've done everything that
you can do. I think it's also really
important as an artist, right. But what about like creating?
(07:03):
Because that's a very different conversation for us because
creating we feel like, you know,yes, we might not have control
of the outcome if something, if we hear yes from Netflix or no
from Netflix. But then how do we hold on to
control of our art? And when, when do we have to go?
I have to let go of control because the art might not be
(07:25):
made if I hold on too tightly. It might ruin the opportunity if
I hold on too tightly. I think what I've learned in
that aspect, honestly, and especially in the last couple of
years, is that you have no control.
And you, you, you know, you can make what you want to make.
And I think, you know, the more passionate you are about a
project, the more people are going to want to come and jump
(07:46):
on board with you and make that project happen.
The thing is, is you're going tobring a project to the table and
100 people are going to change board and it's going to be
completely. Yeah.
So you cannot hold on to anything.
There's no. Control what we can.
So you literally bring a seed and then somebody else plants
the tree and somebody and you have to let go and let other
people do that. And if you don't, then it's
never going to get made, right? Something too hard.
(08:09):
It's never, ever going to get made in this industry as hard as
you, you know, like I know a lotof that have done that as
creators and, and writers and stuff and they've held on to
these projects for 20-30 years and they never get made.
Because no. And if you hold on too tight to
control, then you're not going to get it made to begin with.
Like that's, that's exactly whenyou blow your own opportunity
community and and when people are like, oh, she's not
(08:31):
malleable or easy to work with. And that is when, yeah, it
really can work against, I think.
It's learning to, you know, in the film industry, especially
like if you're a young filmmakerout there trying to like make
your dream project and holding on to this like seed of a story
that you really want to make. You need to realize that film is
collaboration and it's a collaborative art.
(08:51):
It is not an individual art. So you can put out as much as
you want in your voice and in your name.
But at the end of the day, there's going to be, like I
said, 100 people at Touch Your project and 100 people that
bring their own voice and their own piece to the project if you
want to get it made. So I think it's just being open
to letting people into your art and letting go of that control
(09:13):
of just being the only person that has that control, right?
That's really important. I mean, we're all still learning
how to do that, right? Because we do as artists get
attached to certain things and it's really hard to sometimes
let go of those things. But I think when you grip too
tightly to something, it's like you're going to strangle it, you
know what I mean? Instead of but.
That just as in life as well. I mean it's.
(09:35):
Like raising a child. Well, it's like, it's like doing
anything. Yeah, it's like doing anything.
Yeah. Has there ever been a moment in
time where you felt like lettinggo of something backfired?
Letting go of something. Yeah, like creatively or like in
your personal life or just like generally like, just like
talking about like, you know, when like control, right?
(09:56):
Like maybe more in like the creative sense, but like.
Yeah, I think that. I think that there have been
times like as an actor where I have perhaps been personally
like too malleable or maybe insecure in my voice and my
opinion and wanted to especiallylike I've done this since I was
(10:16):
8 years old. So I remember when I started
coming into the industry, you just want to please and please.
You don't want to do the wrong thing and you don't want to, you
know, step on anyone's toes. And so I think there's so many
times that I think back and I go, I really should have used my
voice a little bit more and asserted a little bit more
control over what I was putting out there.
(10:38):
Because I look back at it and I'm like, like, that's not what
I wanted to do. And I or I could have done it
better or made it. Yeah, made a stronger choice.
And then you go, well, actually I think that the creators would
have appreciated me bringing. You know, they hire us because
of what we bring to the table and what we have to offer.
And so if we don't assert a little bit of control over our
art and what we're bringing to the table, then what are we?
(11:01):
What's the point? May as well hire.
AI I mean, yes, I've had that. I've also had situations where
the production does not give a shit, excuse my language and
what they bring to the table. You're literally a puppet in
their puppet show. And they don't, of course.
And so there is a line again like with the control.
(11:23):
Yes, well, and that's what I mean.
Like there have been instances but it's not how.
I put every job when you're on like a more malleable project,
like you know, an independent feature or something where like
you can, you know, you're not getting.
Collaborative. Much more collaborative.
You can, like, bring more voice to the table as an actor.
Yeah. Then sometimes you're on network
television shows where you know the drug where.
(11:43):
Do you want me to stand? Cinematographer and he literally
does not care what you say. He wants you to make the shot
work and that's all that matters.
You know no and. You're like, my job is to say
the words and stand on this markand go home.
Totally. Like I can smile when you say
smile and I'm a puppet to you. Like so it's like it's just
knowing your place sometimes to you on those.
(12:04):
Things It is knowing your place.It's reading the room.
It's reading the room. You have to read the room.
Yeah, yeah. Like there's a talent in that, I
guess. And I think because we've been
doing this for so long, I think we're learning to read dreams a
little bit better. I don't think I'm an ex, yeah,
but yeah. But that's also what happens in
your is yes, you learn, you've taken all of this in and you've
(12:27):
learned, but also you do give a little less shit.
I don't know what happens after 40, but you kind of just put
both of your middle fingers up and you're like whatever.
So that's where you have to put yourself in check as well and be
like, OK, I know my place. I know when it's OK to speak up
and and grip onto something a little more tightly and and feel
(12:50):
very convinced in my vision and what I believe in and when you
have to go. OK.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
I kind of want to go back to like that point you were talking
about where as women like control is framed differently
right then then when it's man because like you're right.
I you know, when you think aboutit, I mean, I think things are
(13:10):
changing for the better in a lotof ways.
And the diversity, you know, in the room as an executive or as,
you know, a leader on set, it's starting to change a little bit.
You know, I don't feel like I'm the only woman, but often I am
the only producer on set. Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's, that's definitely you. We're still living in a big time
man's world. And so, like, you have to assert
(13:32):
your control in a different way than a man would, right.
Like a man does it and and like it feels like they're being
leaders, but when a woman doesn't.
Well, that's what I was saying. When a woman does it, they're
naggy or cringy or too much. So like, how do we fight for the
perception that like, we deserveto be there, you know, without,
(13:52):
you know, being an A hole? I think it's a matter of and I
think this is the same with anybody picking and choosing
your battles. I think it's really important.
I think that you have to know when it's OK to let go a little
bit and when there is something that is really important to
fight for. And I think that if you're, if
you're, it's like as a mom, if I'm yelling and nagging at my
kids about everything, it becomes like the nuts parents
(14:16):
I'm like, and they don't hear anything or they roll their eyes
or the respect goes out the window.
And I feel like maybe as women in our industry or in any type
of, you know, what am I trying to say?
Like power position or whatever,it's kind of the same.
It's like we, we have to, regardless if we're a man or a
woman, we have to earn the respect of our peers.
(14:37):
And I do think that showing thatyou respect other people's
opinions regardless is really important.
And knowing, OK, I'm going to give a little, but this is this
is where I draw the line. This is where I'm not budging.
And yeah, I don't know, I think,I think.
That's hard for me a lot of the time with control and what I've
learned because I have been in positions where I've been, you
(14:59):
know, a female on set in a, in apower position.
And a lot of the time men, you know, blame women for being too
emotional and that they can't lead because they get too
emotional, right. So I think reading a lot of your
energy in like the clarity of what the problem is and really
sticking to that. And your communication, you
know. Here's what matters, like A
versus B Yeah, clarity is reallypower, right?
(15:22):
And so you can't, you can't holdcontrol without friction.
But like, sometimes it's about. True.
That's true. That's true.
And I think it's also about insulating yourself.
Like if you are in a position ofpower, then you hopefully are
able to have a little bit of a save the people that you bring
into your world and you have around you.
So it's also insulating yourselfwith.
Yeah, but. Sometimes not sometimes.
(15:44):
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess.
No. I guess trying to have good
people around you try like you. You can try but like.
It's of course, it's not always in our control and, and no
matter what industry and you're going to meet assholes
everywhere for sure. That's not something that we're
going to be able to avoid. We try.
We try, we try. So like, how do you recover when
(16:05):
control disappears on like in a situation like, you know, on
set, what, like, how would you deal with something like that?
Like if if you were speaking to the listener who's like a young
filmmaker who possibly has neverworked on that before and you
know, you're, you're, I had a situation, for example, when I
(16:27):
was quite young where I had to do a super emotional scene.
Like as an actor. Yeah, as an actor.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, producer as an actor and I
had to do a very emotional sceneand there was 0 prep to get into
it, so you literally just had todrop in like so so.
Far. Right and they were trying to
get to lunch. So like there was that stress on
top of things, right? So we literally.
(16:47):
Had to. Be like, go, go, go 3 minutes to
get all these shots in. Yeah.
And it was like a it was a very complex shot.
And the director really cared about how the shot was going to
be created. And so he did not give a crap
about talking to an actor or whatever.
And so at that moment in time, like I felt like I was going to
(17:08):
break because like as an actor, a young.
Fact. Use it.
You know, like you want to say something like, hey, can I have
like 3 seconds to like, can you explain to me what we're doing?
He's just like, you're here, you're here, you're here.
Why aren't you doing it? I've been there.
You know you're. Like, Oh my gosh, So how, how do
we assert control over a situation like that?
(17:31):
You're allowed to as an actor. Have.
Right. Yes, it's funny because I, I
did, I, I can't say what the show is, but I did an episode of
a very big show and the weed wasnotoriously very difficult and
notoriously gave a lot of time for his or her.
(17:51):
Close up. And then and then the ADS and
everybody on set, they were like, OK, this number 1 is going
to be coming in the room, We're going to rehearse now.
And I was like, OK, so the firstAD rehearsed with me and it was
my big confessional crying scene, the biggest scene of the
(18:11):
whole episode, admitting that I killed all these people.
And then they said, when he comes in, you're shooting,
you're getting one take and that's it.
And I was like, OK, so I rehearsed with the first AD.
This lead comes in, we do my onetake and he stood up and was
like, OK, that was great. We're done and walked out the
room and in hindsight, and then I watched and I was like, it's
(18:32):
so funny because I remember thinking that this show, all the
guest stars were really weak actors.
And then I went that's why, because this person took a lot
of time for themselves, but didn't he took the control and
he as a number one was like thisis the way the sets running and
as somebody that wasn't in a position of control, I felt very
small and I was like, OK, this is the way it's going.
But in hindsight, if 40 year oldChelsea were to walked into that
(18:55):
situation, I would have been like hold on a second and tried
as hard as I could to fight for the opportunity to do it again.
But I but even then, like I don't know that I would have
been in the position of control to do that because it wasn't my
set right. So there are situations where I
think we have to go, OK, I'm going to do my best and do what
(19:16):
I can. Yeah.
And there's another thing like right there that you brought up.
And that's like something that, you know, a lot of, you know,
maybe more amateur actors don't know.
But when you step onto a set as a guest in somebody on somebody
else's show, which is, you know,likely where you're going to
start, the number one really sets the tone.
(19:37):
The number one means the number one actor, for those of you that
know means like the lead actor on the show, they set the tone
for how the set is run really enough.
And I've been on sets for the number one has literally written
me a thank you card and left it in my trailer for being a part
of their show. And I've been on shows like the
one you just talked about too. Where they don't even look you
(19:59):
they. Acknowledge you or there's.
Something. As your eyeline and they don't
want to be there because they want to go home early, right
They're like shoot me out yeah here's your tennis ball so you
can have an eyeline and there's no eyes to look into so it's
like. And I get it.
Like I've been the number one ona show.
I know, like how exhausting it is and like how done you are
after months of shooting and every scene or whatever.
But like it is never OK to treat.
(20:21):
But it is a privilege to be #1 on a show.
And I think a lot of people forget that, you know, like when
people are working so hard just to get a guest star role on
something and when you book a number one on a show, I think
remember. The responsibility, the
attitude. And the responsibility that you
have to lead, right? You are a leader.
You're in control of that set and those actors and how
(20:41):
everyone treats everybody on that show.
So I think and you can make it and yeah, you can make it an
enjoyable experience for everybody.
And, and, and also if you don't,then it really shows in in the
show that you're making and thenyour show gets cancelled.
And guess what? You don't you're you're not a
number one anymore. You don't 100% what is that?
I mean, it's just it's the the actors that come on set, but
it's also the crew that you workwith every day.
(21:03):
They like, you know, a positive attitude because then it's a
positive like it's it's uplifting all around.
So I think you know, knowing that and if you ever have the
opportunity and the privilege tobe a number one on a show,
remember that how important the leadership role is in the
control that. You.
It's everything. Yeah.
Well, and all the crew is not talking nicely about this person
(21:25):
before and after this person wason set.
And I was like, that is the saddest thing that I've ever.
Seen like culture, yeah. I was like, this is so icky.
But anyway, yeah, so control is a funny thing because I just did
a thing I have on my own personal writing side, like sub
stock. I did a thing about control and
it was interesting because I didfeel like there was a through
(21:48):
line between control in my job as a creator and control in my
personal life. And in the thing I was talking
about, it was talking about giving up control because
sometimes we are in a situation in life where where it can drive
us crazy when we're trying to hold on to it.
And I found that for me and my personal situation, trying to
(22:08):
control every little thing, I realized it wasn't changing the
outcome. So there are times where it
doesn't change the outcome. It just creates an incentive
sanity or unhappiness within you, you know, and, and it's
counterproductive. Yeah.
Well, I think that's really, I think honestly that is the not
the lesson. But like, you know what we, what
we work on as this as women of creatives in the industry, that
(22:31):
control isn't about holding on to everything.
And it's about knowing what we refuse to let go of, and why
and. Maybe to?
Get about that a little bit moreand understanding those reasons
and then being able to grow fromthat, you know, and, and when
you you know, it's kind of like when you break up with somebody,
you know what I mean? It's like you lose a weight off
(22:51):
of yourself and then all of a sudden free up space for other
things. And I think sometimes it's
control is really about the balance of letting go and
holding on to things that are important, but knowing what's.
And putting yourself in check. Yeah, absolutely.
It's all of those things, yeah, yeah.
At once and you're like, why am I holding on to control so much?
(23:13):
Why is this? What what chord is this striking
with me? What is this triggering?
And and then that's when therapyis good.
Well, yeah, absolutely. You're not there, so you.
Cannot speak to that part of things, but yeah, I mean, you
can only say what you know. And for me, it's like, I think a
lot of the control, you know, that we try to hold on to the
most is based in, you know, fighting over specific moments
(23:38):
now. But it used to be based and
really fear based. Yeah.
Fear of fear of not being seen, fear of being dismissed, all
those things. And so, yeah, I think we need to
choose our battles because our nervous systems deserve peace,
right? The end of.
The day, yeah, there's, there's,there's too much going on to
have to, you know, hang on to every little thing.
(23:59):
So totally, yeah. You gotta let it go.
Yeah, so. Tell me your mom without telling
me your mom. How many times they let it go
without and Elsa for Halloween. Elsa.
Let me, I've actually avoided that one.
And we see my daughter was like,I'm going to be The Little
Mermaid for Halloween. And it's so funny because her
big sister was Little Mermaid for I think four or five years
(24:21):
in a row. And I was like, Oh my gosh, is
it happening again? Yeah.
We're made again, letting go of control.
I really wanted her to be something else for Halloween,
but I. Know.
It's so hard she won this one. So hard.
Anyway, yeah, so, well, I think,I think those are all really
valid, really good things to bring up.
And it's just really important conversation because it's so
(24:44):
tied to our mental health and our happiness.
And you know, it really is the root of so much of that as
artists and creators or whatever, because we don't have
the 9:00 to 5:00, we don't have the ability to go in and have
the predictability of knowing what every day is going to look
like. Totally.
And it it drives so many of us crazy, right?
(25:06):
Oh my gosh, yeah. So we don't have there is there
is no blueprint on how to make things work.
You plan to have to create it for yourself.
And so like we're just giving you kind of our experience, but
like, you know, you got to, you just got to figure it out and
this industry. Our advice is you just got to
figure it out. Yeah, just.
Go for it, Gabbana says. Just figure it out.
(25:31):
Yeah. No, but it is it is true and and
if you have non negotiables, don't feel like you have to be
small. Allow yourself to fight for your
vision and what you believe in. You know, maybe just don't step
on people in the way and and letother people have a little bit
of their voice in space as well.Totally.
(25:52):
Yeah. All right.
Well, thanks. For listening and until next
time. Yeah, we're going to go do our
self tapes now where we have absolutely no control of the
outcome. Yeah, that's right.
So peace out and peace to us. Bye, guys.
Bye. In today's episode, Lit a fire
(26:14):
under you? Share it with a fellow creative
or screenshot this episode and post it to your socials.
Don't forget to subscribe, rate and leave us.
A review Want more? Follow us on Instagram at The
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Entertainment to get plugged into the movement.
Until next time, keep telling your story, stay bold and
remember. We don't play by the rules.
(26:34):
We make our own.
Welcome to the creative sisterhood where women take
center stage on screen and behind the scenes.
I'm Jovanna Burke, actress, filmmaker, producer and founder
of Grand Blvd. Entertainment.
And I'm Chelsea Hobbs, writer partner in Grand Blvd. and your
copilot on this wild ride through the entertainment
industry. Between the two of us, we spent
over 50 years carving our own paths in this business, and now
(00:25):
we're handing you the blueprint.Each week we dive into real
conversations about acting, creating your own work, building
your brand, and surviving this industry with your soul intact.
Whether you're an aspiring actress and indie filmmaker or
just done waiting for permissionto tell your story.
This space is for you, because here on The Creative Sisterhood,
(00:45):
we don't play by the rules. We make our own.
Let's get into it. Welcome back, Oh my.
Gosh, it's been I don't even know where to start.
I know, I know. I feel like your life is always
full of yeah colors for sure. Like, we'll call it colorful,
(01:10):
but so. Yeah.
So what's going on? What happened?
I just, I personally just had totape 3 auditions in the last 24
hours and it's been a lot. That you're like, will I ever
hear anything back from this or am I just throwing it out into
the world and I mean you? Know what actually I want to
hear something crazy is I actually heard feedback last
(01:31):
Week 2 times which is unheard ofand it incredible I was like Oh
my God what? That did happen to me recently
as well with that one that I think we both taped for that one
showed for different roles and like I got feedback for it and I
was like wait, tell the casting.Thank you so much for.
Feedback. God it's incredible.
I got feedback from casting on one and from an executive
(01:53):
producer on another. And I sent it to our agent.
And I was like, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I guess I'm doing
something right if I'm getting this feedback.
And she's like, you should thankhim like profusely because we
would have never known that you'd gone to network for this
particular role had he not said no, right?
Well. And that's the.
Thing is like my way, but like it doesn't matter.
Like it's it's it's nice to. Hear you're saying like.
Like growing shit at the wall. Exactly.
(02:16):
And like you're saying like, oh,it's nice to hear that, like I
did something right. And so that's the problem is
like, we think if we don't hear that, we're not doing something
right. But like Deb said, if he didn't
write you and give you the feedback, you would have never
heard that you went to network. So sometimes it's like you're
doing great work, you're up for things, and you have absolutely
no idea. You think you're just throwing
dog shit everywhere. Honestly, it is.
(02:38):
So, so hard to be in this industry sometimes.
Some days are just like very difficult and some days are
great, you know, like when you get good feedback, you're like,
oh, look at me, yeah, maybe I know what I'm doing sometimes.
And other days it's, it's quite difficult, like in our industry,
you know, oh, it's so. Hard.
Well, so that's actually what wewanted to talk today about.
Perfect little segue into control because it's, you know,
(03:03):
something that we don't have ever really.
So yeah, I think it's a really good conversation because so
many people, whether you're an actor or producer or like any
type of creative, an artist, a musician, Control is such a big
conversation. Oh my God.
It's such a funny thing in our industry, right?
Because like on so many different levels, I definitely
(03:26):
feel like, you know, as a femaleartist in this industry, like,
you know, with controlled, you're told to take up space via
boss, be decisive, but then you're also told be flexible,
don't be difficult, collaborate.And like we're constantly trying
to find out where the line is without break.
Control, but like, don't be. We're being.
Labeled hard to work with, you know like where like what is the
line right. So it's an interesting place to
(03:47):
be for us and it's definitely, you know, not just us.
Anybody in this industry controls a weird word, So yeah,
let's dig it is. Well, OK, so like I feel like
just in general, as women, thereis a rate like a very negative
connotation when it comes to theword control, because for some
(04:10):
reason a man taking control is agood thing.
And like something that's expected of them or something
that is, is just typically in a work setting, not considered to
be a negative thing. And then when you switch it to a
female, it suddenly takes this other, don't you think?
Like it takes another meeting orit's like she's controlling.
(04:32):
Yeah, exactly is. That.
Lying females too, yeah. So how do we feel comfortable
taking control and owning it andfeeling like a boss stitch about
it as opposed to somebody that'snagging or being read as
difficult? I don't know.
I mean, I think we can break it down a little bit.
Like, I mean, just for me personally, I would say control
(04:54):
means different things. Like, you know, like when I was
in my 20s, let's say control is very different than it is now in
my 40s, when I was in my 20s, I think I really like thought
control equaled success, like being in control, being it,
right, You know, like feel like control sometimes blocks things
though, like surprise and, and like in your work too, right,
(05:16):
Because if you're being too controlling, like it's an
interesting thing. But as I've gotten older, I
think that I I've realized a lotof the time control is really
rooted in fear, like for for me or like for women, it's.
So like. Fear of being misunderstood,
like fear of of, you know, our work being watered down, fear of
not being heard, fear of being dismissed.
(05:36):
But is that? Control or why you?
Try to control things in your life, right?
Yeah, I'm not saying. Difference between like having
control and like the fear of like of losing control and like
needing to like grip control. Do you know what I mean?
Like there's like being in control is one thing, and trying
to have control is another thing.
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I think being in control
(05:59):
at this age to me is like being specific about the things you
want to be in control of becauseyou can't, you realize as you
age, you know that you can't be in control of everything or you
go and see. And so you have to learn to let
go of things in order to, you know, fight for control and
specific moments and specific situations.
I mean, if we relate it to acting like control at this age
(06:21):
is like, I can control what I know about a character.
I can control like you know whatI can bring to the table.
That's what I was going to say. Can't control what they're going
to think of my appearance. I can't control what they're
going to think of my choices. I can't.
You know what I mean? Like I.
Can know like truly we have no control like as as artists, like
you're right, the only thing that we can control is what we
(06:42):
put out there. And then it's, you know, letting
go, doing your, you know, the things that you need to do to
make sure that mentally you're OK and that, yeah, that you're
not, you're not losing your mindfeeling like you, you know, just
having the peace that knowing that you've done everything that
you can do. I think it's also really
important as an artist, right. But what about like creating?
(07:03):
Because that's a very different conversation for us because
creating we feel like, you know,yes, we might not have control
of the outcome if something, if we hear yes from Netflix or no
from Netflix. But then how do we hold on to
control of our art? And when, when do we have to go?
I have to let go of control because the art might not be
(07:25):
made if I hold on too tightly. It might ruin the opportunity if
I hold on too tightly. I think what I've learned in
that aspect, honestly, and especially in the last couple of
years, is that you have no control.
And you, you, you know, you can make what you want to make.
And I think, you know, the more passionate you are about a
project, the more people are going to want to come and jump
(07:46):
on board with you and make that project happen.
The thing is, is you're going tobring a project to the table and
100 people are going to change board and it's going to be
completely. Yeah.
So you cannot hold on to anything.
There's no. Control what we can.
So you literally bring a seed and then somebody else plants
the tree and somebody and you have to let go and let other
people do that. And if you don't, then it's
never going to get made, right? Something too hard.
(08:09):
It's never, ever going to get made in this industry as hard as
you, you know, like I know a lotof that have done that as
creators and, and writers and stuff and they've held on to
these projects for 20-30 years and they never get made.
Because no. And if you hold on too tight to
control, then you're not going to get it made to begin with.
Like that's, that's exactly whenyou blow your own opportunity
community and and when people are like, oh, she's not
(08:31):
malleable or easy to work with. And that is when, yeah, it
really can work against, I think.
It's learning to, you know, in the film industry, especially
like if you're a young filmmakerout there trying to like make
your dream project and holding on to this like seed of a story
that you really want to make. You need to realize that film is
collaboration and it's a collaborative art.
(08:51):
It is not an individual art. So you can put out as much as
you want in your voice and in your name.
But at the end of the day, there's going to be, like I
said, 100 people at Touch Your project and 100 people that
bring their own voice and their own piece to the project if you
want to get it made. So I think it's just being open
to letting people into your art and letting go of that control
(09:13):
of just being the only person that has that control, right?
That's really important. I mean, we're all still learning
how to do that, right? Because we do as artists get
attached to certain things and it's really hard to sometimes
let go of those things. But I think when you grip too
tightly to something, it's like you're going to strangle it, you
know what I mean? Instead of but.
That just as in life as well. I mean it's.
(09:35):
Like raising a child. Well, it's like, it's like doing
anything. Yeah, it's like doing anything.
Yeah. Has there ever been a moment in
time where you felt like lettinggo of something backfired?
Letting go of something. Yeah, like creatively or like in
your personal life or just like generally like, just like
talking about like, you know, when like control, right?
(09:56):
Like maybe more in like the creative sense, but like.
Yeah, I think that. I think that there have been
times like as an actor where I have perhaps been personally
like too malleable or maybe insecure in my voice and my
opinion and wanted to especiallylike I've done this since I was
(10:16):
8 years old. So I remember when I started
coming into the industry, you just want to please and please.
You don't want to do the wrong thing and you don't want to, you
know, step on anyone's toes. And so I think there's so many
times that I think back and I go, I really should have used my
voice a little bit more and asserted a little bit more
control over what I was putting out there.
(10:38):
Because I look back at it and I'm like, like, that's not what
I wanted to do. And I or I could have done it
better or made it. Yeah, made a stronger choice.
And then you go, well, actually I think that the creators would
have appreciated me bringing. You know, they hire us because
of what we bring to the table and what we have to offer.
And so if we don't assert a little bit of control over our
art and what we're bringing to the table, then what are we?
(11:01):
What's the point? May as well hire.
AI I mean, yes, I've had that. I've also had situations where
the production does not give a shit, excuse my language and
what they bring to the table. You're literally a puppet in
their puppet show. And they don't, of course.
And so there is a line again like with the control.
(11:23):
Yes, well, and that's what I mean.
Like there have been instances but it's not how.
I put every job when you're on like a more malleable project,
like you know, an independent feature or something where like
you can, you know, you're not getting.
Collaborative. Much more collaborative.
You can, like, bring more voice to the table as an actor.
Yeah. Then sometimes you're on network
television shows where you know the drug where.
(11:43):
Do you want me to stand? Cinematographer and he literally
does not care what you say. He wants you to make the shot
work and that's all that matters.
You know no and. You're like, my job is to say
the words and stand on this markand go home.
Totally. Like I can smile when you say
smile and I'm a puppet to you. Like so it's like it's just
knowing your place sometimes to you on those.
(12:04):
Things It is knowing your place.It's reading the room.
It's reading the room. You have to read the room.
Yeah, yeah. Like there's a talent in that, I
guess. And I think because we've been
doing this for so long, I think we're learning to read dreams a
little bit better. I don't think I'm an ex, yeah,
but yeah. But that's also what happens in
your is yes, you learn, you've taken all of this in and you've
(12:27):
learned, but also you do give a little less shit.
I don't know what happens after 40, but you kind of just put
both of your middle fingers up and you're like whatever.
So that's where you have to put yourself in check as well and be
like, OK, I know my place. I know when it's OK to speak up
and and grip onto something a little more tightly and and feel
(12:50):
very convinced in my vision and what I believe in and when you
have to go. OK.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
I kind of want to go back to like that point you were talking
about where as women like control is framed differently
right then then when it's man because like you're right.
I you know, when you think aboutit, I mean, I think things are
(13:10):
changing for the better in a lotof ways.
And the diversity, you know, in the room as an executive or as,
you know, a leader on set, it's starting to change a little bit.
You know, I don't feel like I'm the only woman, but often I am
the only producer on set. Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's, that's definitely you. We're still living in a big time
man's world. And so, like, you have to assert
(13:32):
your control in a different way than a man would, right.
Like a man does it and and like it feels like they're being
leaders, but when a woman doesn't.
Well, that's what I was saying. When a woman does it, they're
naggy or cringy or too much. So like, how do we fight for the
perception that like, we deserveto be there, you know, without,
(13:52):
you know, being an A hole? I think it's a matter of and I
think this is the same with anybody picking and choosing
your battles. I think it's really important.
I think that you have to know when it's OK to let go a little
bit and when there is something that is really important to
fight for. And I think that if you're, if
you're, it's like as a mom, if I'm yelling and nagging at my
kids about everything, it becomes like the nuts parents
(14:16):
I'm like, and they don't hear anything or they roll their eyes
or the respect goes out the window.
And I feel like maybe as women in our industry or in any type
of, you know, what am I trying to say?
Like power position or whatever,it's kind of the same.
It's like we, we have to, regardless if we're a man or a
woman, we have to earn the respect of our peers.
(14:37):
And I do think that showing thatyou respect other people's
opinions regardless is really important.
And knowing, OK, I'm going to give a little, but this is this
is where I draw the line. This is where I'm not budging.
And yeah, I don't know, I think,I think.
That's hard for me a lot of the time with control and what I've
learned because I have been in positions where I've been, you
(14:59):
know, a female on set in a, in apower position.
And a lot of the time men, you know, blame women for being too
emotional and that they can't lead because they get too
emotional, right. So I think reading a lot of your
energy in like the clarity of what the problem is and really
sticking to that. And your communication, you
know. Here's what matters, like A
versus B Yeah, clarity is reallypower, right?
(15:22):
And so you can't, you can't holdcontrol without friction.
But like, sometimes it's about. True.
That's true. That's true.
And I think it's also about insulating yourself.
Like if you are in a position ofpower, then you hopefully are
able to have a little bit of a save the people that you bring
into your world and you have around you.
So it's also insulating yourselfwith.
Yeah, but. Sometimes not sometimes.
(15:44):
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess.
No. I guess trying to have good
people around you try like you. You can try but like.
It's of course, it's not always in our control and, and no
matter what industry and you're going to meet assholes
everywhere for sure. That's not something that we're
going to be able to avoid. We try.
We try, we try. So like, how do you recover when
(16:05):
control disappears on like in a situation like, you know, on
set, what, like, how would you deal with something like that?
Like if if you were speaking to the listener who's like a young
filmmaker who possibly has neverworked on that before and you
know, you're, you're, I had a situation, for example, when I
(16:27):
was quite young where I had to do a super emotional scene.
Like as an actor. Yeah, as an actor.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, producer as an actor and I
had to do a very emotional sceneand there was 0 prep to get into
it, so you literally just had todrop in like so so.
Far. Right and they were trying to
get to lunch. So like there was that stress on
top of things, right? So we literally.
(16:47):
Had to. Be like, go, go, go 3 minutes to
get all these shots in. Yeah.
And it was like a it was a very complex shot.
And the director really cared about how the shot was going to
be created. And so he did not give a crap
about talking to an actor or whatever.
And so at that moment in time, like I felt like I was going to
(17:08):
break because like as an actor, a young.
Fact. Use it.
You know, like you want to say something like, hey, can I have
like 3 seconds to like, can you explain to me what we're doing?
He's just like, you're here, you're here, you're here.
Why aren't you doing it? I've been there.
You know you're. Like, Oh my gosh, So how, how do
we assert control over a situation like that?
(17:31):
You're allowed to as an actor. Have.
Right. Yes, it's funny because I, I
did, I, I can't say what the show is, but I did an episode of
a very big show and the weed wasnotoriously very difficult and
notoriously gave a lot of time for his or her.
(17:51):
Close up. And then and then the ADS and
everybody on set, they were like, OK, this number 1 is going
to be coming in the room, We're going to rehearse now.
And I was like, OK, so the firstAD rehearsed with me and it was
my big confessional crying scene, the biggest scene of the
(18:11):
whole episode, admitting that I killed all these people.
And then they said, when he comes in, you're shooting,
you're getting one take and that's it.
And I was like, OK, so I rehearsed with the first AD.
This lead comes in, we do my onetake and he stood up and was
like, OK, that was great. We're done and walked out the
room and in hindsight, and then I watched and I was like, it's
(18:32):
so funny because I remember thinking that this show, all the
guest stars were really weak actors.
And then I went that's why, because this person took a lot
of time for themselves, but didn't he took the control and
he as a number one was like thisis the way the sets running and
as somebody that wasn't in a position of control, I felt very
small and I was like, OK, this is the way it's going.
But in hindsight, if 40 year oldChelsea were to walked into that
(18:55):
situation, I would have been like hold on a second and tried
as hard as I could to fight for the opportunity to do it again.
But I but even then, like I don't know that I would have
been in the position of control to do that because it wasn't my
set right. So there are situations where I
think we have to go, OK, I'm going to do my best and do what
(19:16):
I can. Yeah.
And there's another thing like right there that you brought up.
And that's like something that, you know, a lot of, you know,
maybe more amateur actors don't know.
But when you step onto a set as a guest in somebody on somebody
else's show, which is, you know,likely where you're going to
start, the number one really sets the tone.
(19:37):
The number one means the number one actor, for those of you that
know means like the lead actor on the show, they set the tone
for how the set is run really enough.
And I've been on sets for the number one has literally written
me a thank you card and left it in my trailer for being a part
of their show. And I've been on shows like the
one you just talked about too. Where they don't even look you
(19:59):
they. Acknowledge you or there's.
Something. As your eyeline and they don't
want to be there because they want to go home early, right
They're like shoot me out yeah here's your tennis ball so you
can have an eyeline and there's no eyes to look into so it's
like. And I get it.
Like I've been the number one ona show.
I know, like how exhausting it is and like how done you are
after months of shooting and every scene or whatever.
But like it is never OK to treat.
(20:21):
But it is a privilege to be #1 on a show.
And I think a lot of people forget that, you know, like when
people are working so hard just to get a guest star role on
something and when you book a number one on a show, I think
remember. The responsibility, the
attitude. And the responsibility that you
have to lead, right? You are a leader.
You're in control of that set and those actors and how
(20:41):
everyone treats everybody on that show.
So I think and you can make it and yeah, you can make it an
enjoyable experience for everybody.
And, and, and also if you don't,then it really shows in in the
show that you're making and thenyour show gets cancelled.
And guess what? You don't you're you're not a
number one anymore. You don't 100% what is that?
I mean, it's just it's the the actors that come on set, but
it's also the crew that you workwith every day.
(21:03):
They like, you know, a positive attitude because then it's a
positive like it's it's uplifting all around.
So I think you know, knowing that and if you ever have the
opportunity and the privilege tobe a number one on a show,
remember that how important the leadership role is in the
control that. You.
It's everything. Yeah.
Well, and all the crew is not talking nicely about this person
(21:25):
before and after this person wason set.
And I was like, that is the saddest thing that I've ever.
Seen like culture, yeah. I was like, this is so icky.
But anyway, yeah, so control is a funny thing because I just did
a thing I have on my own personal writing side, like sub
stock. I did a thing about control and
it was interesting because I didfeel like there was a through
(21:48):
line between control in my job as a creator and control in my
personal life. And in the thing I was talking
about, it was talking about giving up control because
sometimes we are in a situation in life where where it can drive
us crazy when we're trying to hold on to it.
And I found that for me and my personal situation, trying to
(22:08):
control every little thing, I realized it wasn't changing the
outcome. So there are times where it
doesn't change the outcome. It just creates an incentive
sanity or unhappiness within you, you know, and, and it's
counterproductive. Yeah.
Well, I think that's really, I think honestly that is the not
the lesson. But like, you know what we, what
we work on as this as women of creatives in the industry, that
(22:31):
control isn't about holding on to everything.
And it's about knowing what we refuse to let go of, and why
and. Maybe to?
Get about that a little bit moreand understanding those reasons
and then being able to grow fromthat, you know, and, and when
you you know, it's kind of like when you break up with somebody,
you know what I mean? It's like you lose a weight off
(22:51):
of yourself and then all of a sudden free up space for other
things. And I think sometimes it's
control is really about the balance of letting go and
holding on to things that are important, but knowing what's.
And putting yourself in check. Yeah, absolutely.
It's all of those things, yeah, yeah.
At once and you're like, why am I holding on to control so much?
(23:13):
Why is this? What what chord is this striking
with me? What is this triggering?
And and then that's when therapyis good.
Well, yeah, absolutely. You're not there, so you.
Cannot speak to that part of things, but yeah, I mean, you
can only say what you know. And for me, it's like, I think a
lot of the control, you know, that we try to hold on to the
most is based in, you know, fighting over specific moments
(23:38):
now. But it used to be based and
really fear based. Yeah.
Fear of fear of not being seen, fear of being dismissed, all
those things. And so, yeah, I think we need to
choose our battles because our nervous systems deserve peace,
right? The end of.
The day, yeah, there's, there's,there's too much going on to
have to, you know, hang on to every little thing.
(23:59):
So totally, yeah. You gotta let it go.
Yeah, so. Tell me your mom without telling
me your mom. How many times they let it go
without and Elsa for Halloween. Elsa.
Let me, I've actually avoided that one.
And we see my daughter was like,I'm going to be The Little
Mermaid for Halloween. And it's so funny because her
big sister was Little Mermaid for I think four or five years
(24:21):
in a row. And I was like, Oh my gosh, is
it happening again? Yeah.
We're made again, letting go of control.
I really wanted her to be something else for Halloween,
but I. Know.
It's so hard she won this one. So hard.
Anyway, yeah, so, well, I think,I think those are all really
valid, really good things to bring up.
And it's just really important conversation because it's so
(24:44):
tied to our mental health and our happiness.
And you know, it really is the root of so much of that as
artists and creators or whatever, because we don't have
the 9:00 to 5:00, we don't have the ability to go in and have
the predictability of knowing what every day is going to look
like. Totally.
And it it drives so many of us crazy, right?
(25:06):
Oh my gosh, yeah. So we don't have there is there
is no blueprint on how to make things work.
You plan to have to create it for yourself.
And so like we're just giving you kind of our experience, but
like, you know, you got to, you just got to figure it out and
this industry. Our advice is you just got to
figure it out. Yeah, just.
Go for it, Gabbana says. Just figure it out.
(25:31):
Yeah. No, but it is it is true and and
if you have non negotiables, don't feel like you have to be
small. Allow yourself to fight for your
vision and what you believe in. You know, maybe just don't step
on people in the way and and letother people have a little bit
of their voice in space as well.Totally.
(25:52):
Yeah. All right.
Well, thanks. For listening and until next
time. Yeah, we're going to go do our
self tapes now where we have absolutely no control of the
outcome. Yeah, that's right.
So peace out and peace to us. Bye, guys.
Bye. In today's episode, Lit a fire
(26:14):
under you? Share it with a fellow creative
or screenshot this episode and post it to your socials.
Don't forget to subscribe, rate and leave us.
A review Want more? Follow us on Instagram at The
Creative Sisterhood and check out Graham Blvd.
Entertainment to get plugged into the movement.
Until next time, keep telling your story, stay bold and
remember. We don't play by the rules.
(26:34):
We make our own.
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