Episode 6: From Duck Hunt to Esports: Exploring the Evolution and Impact of Video Games

This episode explores the nostalgic impact of video gaming on our lives, discussing how it shaped our childhood experiences and influenced our skills into adulthood. We address the benefits and drawbacks of gaming, including screen time management, social connections, and the lessons learned, while ultimately advocating for a balanced approach to video games in today’s world. 
• Nostalgic reflections on childhood gaming experiences 
• Valuable lessons learned from video games 
• Addressing concerns over excessive screen time 
• The importance of social connections through gaming 
• Balancing gaming with real-life interactions

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Daily Edge where we bring you the
latest insights, opinions andthought-provoking conversations
to give you that competitiveedge in life, business and six
Wow Moving right along hereToday is going to be different.

(00:28):
We've talked about a lot ofstuff sports-related,
running-related, leadership,business but we decided that we
wanted to go down a littledifferent path and talk about
video games.
As much as we talked in anearlier episode about screen
time.
All of us grew up playing afair share of video games and we

(00:51):
have some favorites and somepastimes.
So screens, video games we'regoing to dive in and kind of
share some of our thoughts andsome of our favorite moments
from back then.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Cool, yeah, I'll kick it off.
You know, I think that this is.
This is an interesting episode.
This is something in our livesthat I think has been our social
connection point beforeanything else, before sports,
before running, before any ofthat.
This was kind of it because wehad we had roped Todd into
gaming with us when he was four,um, powering up our players on

(01:23):
baseball stars.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
I was just going to say that.
That's the first memory I haveof Nintendo.
It was set up in your bedroom.
I had a half-day kindergartenand so I would come home at
halftime and I would power upthe players, and then you guys
would come home and you werejust blown away, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
But I think that there is trepidation today.
We've talked about this before.
Um, I'm not god, there's somany episodes now I'm not even
or so much time I'm not evenremembering if it was during one
of these or not.
But, um, as to I guess we didtalk in another time about
screen time and about you knowhow to manage that and the
positives and negatives of itall.

(01:59):
And, um, you know we played aton of video games, um, and so
I'm sure there are people outthere listening who have kids.
They may not have playedgrowing up, and we still do.
In our, you know, soon-to-be 40sand 40s, we still get together.
As recent as, I think, early23,.
You know, we played games for asolid week together there, I

(02:24):
think, when Elden Ring came outor shortly thereafter, and so we
still do that, and so I thinkwe can speak to and maybe allay
some of those fears right, kindof speak to the benefits that
we've seen and the elements ofthem that we do appreciate.
There is a negative side.
I know all of us have gone downparticular, not sogreat paths,

(02:46):
whether it be withmicrotransactions.
There's something I want totackle later that happened to
Todd and I probably 15 years ago, that I still harbor resentment
over.
But we'll get there, we'llcross that path when the time
comes.
But I just wanted to kind ofkick that out there and say that

(03:07):
you know, hopefully you'll gainsome insight as to what
positive and negative impactsthese could have on the people
that are close to you.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, I mean you guys started way before I did.
I'm not sure how, what systemyou guys remember starting with.
Say that again.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
ColecoVision was our first system.
Okay.
Dad had a ColecoVision.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
That was joystick.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
It had like the number pad.
There was a number pad,joystick was Atari or
Intellivision Atari, yeah.
Intellivision.
Colecovision was the firstsystem we had, I barely remember
, but there were a couple gameswere a couple of games.
Uh, one that I loved playingwas called venture.
Um, and every now and then whenI find an emulator I'll kick
back and play venture.

(03:52):
But obviously, like most kidsthat were born in the late
seventies, early eighties, itwas, it was, it was the Nintendo
entertainment system, Like thatwas the absolute jump off to
the point where, you know, and Ithink it was fun because it was
such a unique and new thing youknow our dad was playing with
us.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I know we both remember dad playing duck hunt
rolling around on the bed, likeyou know, just clocking these
ducks I used to go up to thescreen and I would just hold it
right on the screen, dad wouldbe back.
You know six, eight feetshooting here and the fact they
had that technology where itfigured it out was just pretty
incredible back in the day.
But I mean, you had thoserounded TVs and go up, I'd hold

(04:34):
it on the bubble and you knowyou'd fly it all around.
It was a blast.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
That was.
I think that kind of pushed itforward right, because he was a
big, I mean, he played with usso it was kind of an acceptable
thing to do.
Um, you know, and, and I thinkwe all played the early games,
some of the the ones I rememberobviously everybody played Super
Mario Brothers and beating thatgame and learning how to do um,

(04:58):
the infinite lives trick andsome of those things and
learning how to use the warpzones in Rad Racer.
But I think the first game thatreally captivated a lot of our
time was probably you in Legendof Zelda, oh, yeah, I didn't
remember if that or FinalFantasy.
Final Fantasy was for me forsure.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Was Zelda first.
Yes, do you think?
Okay, yes, gold cartridge yeah,lots of memories of Zelda.
Still, I could sit down andplay it and beat it now in
probably a couple hours, butback in the day, when you had
the cartridge, you had to blowin the cartridge, you know, to
get it to where, uh, it wouldplay.
But one thing about back in theday, as I think about it, I mean

(05:39):
there wasn't no online, so asmuch as video games have can
sometimes make you an individuallike a kind of a loner by
yourself.
Back then we did it.
You were really good aboutencouraging me and I, todd, was
you're four years younger thanme, so you probably weren't
didn't feel this as much, butyou would learn something, get

(06:00):
good at it, and then you'd belike I'll just do the research.
I want you to play.
Yeah, and playing was alwaysthe fun part to me, and so I.
You know, I was one of thecontrol in my hand and you were
like a way for us to do ittogether is like you would do
the research and, um, some ofthe research involved calling
seattle washington I still as of.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
It was probably six or seven years ago, I don't
remember it anymore, but I I had.
I could still recall theNintendo Power Classified's
phone number.
That's how you had to do it.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, we, you get stuck in a game, and so for
those of you you had NintendoPower magazines that came out
that had some tricks, but if yougot hung up there was a hotline
.
And so I remember we kind ofwent at this for several months
and I think and this would havebeen back in the eighties got
like a hundred dollar phone billand I think and this would have
been back in the 80s got like a$100 phone bill.
Yeah, it's like 99 cents aminute.
It was super salty, but wecalled that several times until

(06:51):
dad kind of informed us thatthat wasn't possible anymore.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
It was a really.
I learned a lot of good lessonsback then Learned how to
control my emotions.
I remember getting in a nearphysical fight with a babysitter
because I had made it past aparticular stage on Rad Racer
that it had taken me so long toget past and it was bedtime and
I had to turn it off and I wasjust furious and then the next
morning woke up and did it againand so, like you know,

(07:14):
realizing that it wasn't the endof the world when something
like that happened although Ibelieve it was sort of Vermilion
where you was it Nerve thaterased all of your progress.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
I don't know, man, there were some of those games
that I remember early on whereyou could I think the first
building games were likeBaseball Stars, tecmo, super
Bowl III For Genesis, forGenesis, like those games, and
then, like you know, zelda youcould save it.
But, man, if the game we weused to call it crapping out, if
it crapped out, you know, youcould potentially lose

(07:49):
everything um, there wasn't asecurity of actually keeping it.
So I'm assuming, over the yearswe had several times where that
became a reality and was quitedevastating for us at the time,
because you're just like, youput so much work into it and
it's gone yeah, I do want to goback and kind of talk about
early baseball stars because,like you said, with that being
your first memory, I think wedid that a lot with different

(08:10):
games.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
And again it speaks to what you said about me liking
to do the research, you havingthe controller and actually
executing the things, and then,as we got older, you started to
do some of that as well.
But I think you know, even whenyou were four, we figured out.
So Baseball Stars was a almostlike.
There were elements of it thatwere almost like a role playing
sports game, where the game camepreloaded with a number of

(08:31):
teams that you could play, butyou also had the ability to
create your own team, and therewere there was a lot of hard
work involved in building yourteam to this maximum level.
It required, first of all, youhad to go through this process

(08:52):
of goodness.
I don't even know if I want toexplain it all, but I will One
of the.
So there were, just like in anyother RPG game, there were like
six or seven differentcategories you could fill up,
and one of the categories wasprestige, and prestige was how
you made money to buy newplayers, and there were these
players that were $9 million or$99 million or whatever, and to

(09:15):
get a player that you could maxout all of their stats, you had
to buy the player for 99 million.
So you would make a team andyou'd fill up just their
prestige.
And then you would make a teamand you'd fill up just their
prestige, and then you'd makeanother team and or you'd play
the lovely ladies who had highprestige and you would have two
controls, right, and your teamyou would bean the batters until

(09:37):
they walked in enough runs, andthen the other team, you would
throw strikes, and I think therewas a 10-0 rule, 10-0 rule.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
So you could do it in basically one inning.
So the pitcher would hit 13batters, you'd get 10 runs,
throw three outs, you would putthe person on bunt and do a
triple play and then the nexttime you'd get three outs in a
row again.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
And then boom, the game was over and you got that
$56,000 or whatever, and I thinkit ended up being 128 when you
had everyone fully prestiged andthen you took that money it was
a million dollars to get ahigh-end guy and then you'd have
to buy a million dollar playerand then you get a team full of
million dollar players.
That then you'd have to gothrough the process of getting
all that money to upgrade all ofthose players.

(10:19):
And it was a grind and we putyou on that and just crushed.
And it was a grind and we putyou on that and just crushed.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
I don't actually remember any of that, exactly
what I was doing, but I doremember playing the game and I
remember some of the screens.
We've all been I mean, there'sbeen different times, we've done
fighting games and sports gamesbut something that you've
always been interested in and Ithink it kind of translated is
some more of the role-playingstuff.
Like Zelda, for me, was anopen-world map and you fought

(10:50):
bosses and you increased yourhearts and you increased your
armor and you increased thedifferent things you could do.
Each stage would provide adifferent, you'd have a
different element.
You could now drop bombs or youcould shoot a bow and arrow
Just the building and the growthand the character.
There was something about thatthat was just always intriguing

(11:10):
to me.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
I think we've carried that into.
That's a.
That's a positive that we'vecarried into.
Life is going through andbuilding these characters and
learning how to problem solveand get through challenges and
and figuring.
Also though going back to theor similar to the baseball stars
thing, but in the vein of RPGsis the grind.
Often, I think that's one ofthe things you wouldn't think

(11:35):
right.
You would think it'd be beatingthis amazing boss or getting
this really unique item, and theonly time that I would remember
getting a unique item is if wehad to grind to get it.
I mean, you think about FinalFantasy.
That was a defining game for us, again after the Legend of
Zelda, hall of Giants.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
For sure.
You know, it's probably from alife skill perspective delayed
gratification Relative to thegames.
Today someone was showing methey were playing Royal Match,
maybe if you've ever seen that,and he was on level 1,279.
It's like, I mean, every timeyou play those games it's like

(12:16):
you level up and there's likethings that right there, like
instantly, within minutes,you're getting, whereas I feel
like in some of the older games,whether it was Final Fantasy or
whether it was Zelda or eventhe future Zeldas, when we went
and did all the Skulltillas, Imean that would take tens of
hours, like dozens of hours.
And the delayed gratification,like you said, you learn to

(12:37):
grind until you achievedwhatever you were striving for.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think we embraced that so much I don't even think
we knew.
Again, I mentioned this in anearlier podcast where I didn't
know until later in life kidswould leave our house and go to
tell their parents like.
These kids are on an entirelydifferent level and I didn't
really grasp that until becausethat was probably into my 20s
when I first heard that.
But I remember playing FinalFantasy VII.

(13:05):
And.
I would have been a senior inhigh school or freshman in
college and we were recordingour games on VCR tapes and I
remember we beat Sephirothwithout getting touched and to
us it just you know, we hadground Because we love to max
level guys.
And I remember showing that tosomebody that was in my dorm and

(13:28):
their head almost exploded andhe took the tape and was showing
it around campus Like, oh myGod, can you believe what these
guys did?
And that was normal.
For whatever reason we'vegravitated towards that.
I don't know what it is.
We found out with our dad inhis 60s that he has that gene as
well and it's probably in hismost recent gaming iteration put

(13:50):
all of us to shame in terms oflong-term grind.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Oh my gosh, that's a whole episode on itself.
Yeah definitely.
What do you guys?
Let's do a lightning round realquick.
Then I want to ask the depthquestion.
Top game from regular Nintendo.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
I have two Final Fantasy and Tecmo Super Bowl.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Zelda, sega Genesis Sonic.
Sonic was pretty epic.
The first Sonic was.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
I would say one that I love to.
It has a special place in myheart that I love to watch Trent
play with Super Hang-On oh yeah, I put a lot of work into that.
N64 007 Goldeneye yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Bond PlayStation 1.
Final Fantasy 7 that was onethat had three discs.
It did, and I don't think,super Nintendo.
Yeah, super Final Fantasy VII,that was one that had three
discs.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
It did Super.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Nintendo, yeah, super yeah.
Final Fantasy II, for sure,idea and Edge and all those that
was probably my favorite FinalFantasy.
It was the red cartridge on thefront.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
That's probably my all-time, which was actually
Final Fantasy IV in Japan, if Ihad to go back, I would say
Nintendo, for me was Super Mario3.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
That was monster Sega Genesis?
Was that APTG Yep?
Arnold Palmer Tournament Golf.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Shout out to Faust, sort of a million was pretty
good.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Super Nintendo was probably Killer Instinct for me.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Oh yeah, I played that heavy.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Glacier, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
A lot of that.
Yeah, teenage Mutant NinjaTurtles a lot of that.
Yeah, teenage Mutant NinjaTurtles was good.
64 Mario was really good for 64, but I would say Link.
Ocarina of Time.
Ocarina of Time.
I've played collecting allhundred of those skulltulas was
just ours.
Ps1, I've got to say FinalFantasy 7.
I think it was you and I thatplayed mostly Final Fantasy 7
seven.

(15:43):
I think it was you and I thatplayed mostly final fantasy
seven.
I mean nba in the zone jumpsout pippin scotty that was.
That was another one that we?
Um, okay then what's next?
The next system would have beenps2 ps2 was that the one where
we waited outside when we were?

Speaker 2 (15:57):
in college we went outside.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Xbox would have been first would have been me and you
, inside, outside.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
I never played Inside outside, Inside drive.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So that was a basketball gamethat me and TJ built a whole
team around and we would workthird shift and come home and
play Inside drive.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, inside drive that.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
PS2 story is great because we were in college and
we went and drove.
I think we were just randomlydriving by the Best Buy and we
noticed there was like 10 peoplein line.
It was like, well, what isgoing on there?

Speaker 3 (16:26):
And we went home, I think for a few minutes and we
found out what it was, we wenthome to get stuff and then we
came back at 10 pm and campedout all night.
It was like 40 degrees.
Yeah, it was freezing cold.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
I remember I had to leave at 6 am.
I 6 am remember holly came andand ended up purchasing it, but
we stayed in line for I don'tknow hours yeah, 10, 10 to 12
hours to get the ps2 stayingoutside the line of best buy I'm
trying to think of the firstgame, guitar hero 3 for me for
ps2, oh for sure.
Yes too, but a lot of guitarhero and these guys like I was

(16:59):
okay at it, but tj is one ofthose.
One like he went to the hardestlevel and you know you couldn't
just strum it.
One had to go both ways inorder to get it and it was just
we.
I mean, that was at everyfamily event Like you can get.
Guitar Hero was way ahead ofits time it was wonderful.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
And then the drums came in.
That was Rock Band, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, the Guitar Hero and then all the songs that
they would send out.
We had so much fun on GuitarHero, but there was something
with PS2 that started to comeout that might have been Final
Fantasy X.
Was that PS2?
Yep, what about?

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Call of Duty, that was PS3.
I mean, it was out on PS2, butPS3, Call of Duty for me by far
and away in the PS3.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, we did play a lot of so that would have been
Final Fantasy X.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, we did play a lot of, so that would have been
Final Fantasy X.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, it was a walkable.
We played a ton of that.
What was Fallout?

Speaker 2 (17:47):
3?
You had gotten that.
For me, was that PS2 or 3?
That might have been.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
PS3.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
You know, on Final Fantasy X, the thing I was
thinking about like you said.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
We didn't just beat stuff.
It was like Luna to get hersecret weapon, you had to dodge
200 lightning bolts in thisfield and it was like there was
this thing that would happenbefore bolt would.
And it just like and I canremember just hours and hours,
there's this chuckle boot racethat you had to do, yeah, where
we had to get under a certaintime and we could.
We did it hundreds of times.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
The emerald emerald emerald machine in the red
monster in final fantasy 7 andthe red dragon and then there
was the, the phoenix.
So I think there were threeultimate weapons that you had to
beat, and we beat them all yeah, yeah for sure, which had
nothing to do with beating thegame they were all side quests,
yeah it wasn't a matter ofbeating the game, it was how
many side quests could beperfect.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
So I was listening to a podcast the other day kind of
talking about how in today'ssociety for understandably so
video gaming is a little bittaboo as right.
I think it's kind of lookeddown upon as an adult If you
game like extensively or youkind of get portrayed as this
like mom's basement kind of aguy like what are your guys?
What's your take on that?

(18:54):
Do you think that's founded?
Do you think it's misinformed?
Do you disagree with it?
Do you think it's real?
Do you?

Speaker 2 (19:01):
want to take that.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Sure, I think gaming is a form of entertainment.
Uh, I'm going to take this alittle different way and say
that there's a differencebetween, I think, gaming and an
addiction, and, um, when you getaddicted to anything, it can be
dangerous, and so I think someof those stereotypes are like,

(19:23):
if I came home and did X thing,whatever that is, every single
night, and on the weekends I didit, and instead of wanting to
have social time with, like ifit was my go-to to where I'm
spending, you know, more than 10hours a week doing it, then I
think some of that stuffprobably resonates.
It would be no different,though, if I sit down and watch

(19:44):
10 hours of television,yellowstone or a series, so I
don't look at any different thanthat.
I think what happens with games, at least with me, is that I
don't just do it a little bitLike if I start.
There was a weekend just alittle while ago where the new
Call of Duty came out.
My son is an excellent firstperson shooter and I'm like
let's go, and I don't stay uppast generally 10 o'clock, and I

(20:06):
looked up and it was one 30 andme and him are playing zombies,
and we did that for kind of twodays straight and I mean we
were probably 10, 15 hours inand I got to share just
something quick about the grind.
So he wants to get unlock everyskin for every gun.
For every gun there's gotta be50 50 guns.
In order to do that you have toget 1,400 headshots per gun and

(20:28):
he's almost done so, like youtalk about the grind, it doesn't
surprise me.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
I mean, he can grind 1,400.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
He found out this trick where he can go to this
place and just like light peopleup and he just wants to unlock
gold, and so he's got 70,000headshots.
He wants to unlock gold, and sohe's got 70,000 headshots.
Yeah, you should go up and seeit, it's actually upstairs.
But like his 70,000, histenacity of wanting to unlock
every weapon, unlock every skinand like these things, like so.

(20:57):
I think he's wired a little bitlike us and there are times
where I could say so.
To go back to the originalquestion is like I can see how
depend on what level you are ifyou're a casual gamer, but I
think anything you do and thepeople where some of that stigma
comes from are the ones thatput gaming above everything else
.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, and I think also you have to be able to.
Unfortunately, just because ofthe way society is, it's like
anything else.
We talked about sports in oursecond episode.
Right, same thing.
There are esports leagues outthere, there are esports players
that make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars,
but it's like playingprofessional sports and, like we

(21:36):
spoke about with our kids,related to sports, what we hope
they do is take the lessons fromsports and apply those to other
areas and if they do the samething with I mean, again, we
were privy to watch our fatherwho, again we found out and we
have to talk about Ingress in alittle bit has this insatiable

(21:58):
ability to grind.
He applied that to his businesscareer, that to his business
career.
He worked the same company for50 years and he worked, started
mowing the founder's lawn allthe way up to owning the
organization and growing it andselling it off before he retired
, and I think that's applyingthat grind to other areas of
life.
So I think you know when itbecomes problematic is when that

(22:22):
doesn't transfer.
You know, because I think thereare areas of entertainment.
There are areas all of thethings we've talked about sports
being in entertainment in atraditional sense, like being an
actor, a lot of those thingsthat, a lot of those skills you
can develop, understanding thatthe you're not, you're probably

(22:44):
not going to reach the pinnacle,but those can be applied other,
other places, and so you know,I think that's when for me it
starts to become to becomeproblematic.
I still watch a ton of contentas it relates to speed running
classic games.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
I was going to say you should talk about that.
So you sit around and watchclassic games and people like
speed run like on Twitch.
So like talk about that a littlebit, because I think there's
kids today that like to sitaround and watch people open
packages.
Yeah, talk about how you feeland see.
This is again where sometimesyour head goes.

(23:20):
I was going to say, talk aboutthe productivity in that, but
it's not productivity, it'sentertainment.
But like, talk about theproductivity in that, but it's
not productivity, it'sentertainment.
But what intrigues you aboutthat and what do you think
intrigues these kids aboutwanting to watch other people do
things?

Speaker 2 (23:32):
I think there's a couple.
So this is twofold, becauseI've just recently experienced
something else.
So the first thing, watchingclassic games.
For me, I appreciate that, likeI appreciate sports.
Recently, and the public willprobably be more aware of this,
you've seen some massiveaccomplishments in classic Nes

(23:52):
Tetris.
I've been watching classic NesTetris on and off, and not
habitually, but I'll watch acouple hours a month, two, three
hours a month, here and thereif some accomplishment or
achievement pops up.
But just recently we saw twomassive achievements in Tetris
somebody breaking the game forthe first time and somebody
flipping the game for the firsttime, which is unbelievable.

(24:15):
But watching people move piecesand place pieces in hundreds of
seconds to the point where it's,it has to be muscle memory.
You can't think that fast, it'sjust seeing and reacting.
And it's you know.
They've done those tests withum, with apes, or with with

(24:35):
monkeys and they tend to befaster than humans and doing a
lot of that stuff.
Because they're not, they don'thave the other things clotting
their mind, they're just it's,it's, you know, it's just muscle
memory.
So watching that from anentertainment perspective is
fascinating to me because it'svery similar.
It's just appreciating a skillset, like you appreciate a skill
set from a basketball, football, soccer perspective.
The new thing that I've beenexposed to very recently that I

(24:59):
didn't grasp was Twitch and notmeaning that I didn't grasp what
twitch was, but I didn't quiteget the live stream thing, um
until path of exile 2 came outrecently and I was watching a
content creator that I like onyoutube um play path of exile
and it reminded me of when wewere growing up.

(25:20):
Chat is giving this personsuggestions on how to level up
his particular character, whatpath on the evolution tree to
take, or what type of characterto play, or how to maneuver to
beat this particular boss.
So you know, it's not somethingthat I would do on a regular
basis, but I can see a glimmerof what we would do in person

(25:44):
growing up in that digitalenvironment.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
I think there are.
Yeah, it reminds me when yousaid what character to pick.
We used to try and beat FinalFantasy with like all four white
mages or just wild stuff likethat.
I think, for kids, what'sinteresting, what I have tried
to support certain games andcertain gaming is, I think
that's going to be an importantsocial connection point.
I don't, you know, I certainlyam not getting compensated to

(26:08):
play Madden, but we all know Iplayed a lot of Madden growing
up and got pretty good at it andI remember in the dorms playing
a ton of Madden and like peoplewould be coming down to our
room at all hours of the day andplaying Madden and that's how I
developed a lot ofrelationships and a lot of
connections.
And any more social skills, Ithink are only going to become
more important.

(26:28):
One of these episodes maybewe'll talk a little more about
AI, but as AI gets more and moreadvanced and does more and more
of the thinking for us, I thinkhumans' role is going to
continue to be more and morecommunication and relationships
and social, and so I thinkthat's a huge, huge part of it
that I think is good for kidsand, I would say, as parents.
What's interesting about thisis the relationship with your

(26:51):
kids.
So, like you, playing withRoman, like that bonding time, I
think is super valuable becauseyou know it's his, in his
territory, on his terms, youknow, I think that can go a long
way.
We've talked about that inprior episodes having
relationships for kids.
So I think again, I think thatcan go a long way.
We've talked about that inprior episodes, having
relationships for kids.
So I think again, I think whenyou have those more in-depth
relationships, you spend thattime together, it puts you in a

(27:12):
better position to haveconversations and coach them and
teach them in other areas oflife.
So I think that's a hugebenefit too.
The last thing I was going toadd about some of the speed
running thing is it's not justskill sets, but it's
appreciating someone doingsomething epic, right and the
hours and hundreds and hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of
hours that some of these peoplehave put into these games

(27:34):
thousands of hours, heck, ifRoman got a headshot every
minute, that's over a thousandhours.
You know, to do that like, toappreciate the extent of those
accomplishments, is something tolook up to right, whether
that's for us or for kids.
Like that delayed gratification, the ability to grind at
something, because I thinkthat's what society is going to
continue to get worse.

(27:54):
At right, they said ourattention spans less than a
goldfish.
I read that.
The other day like ours iscloser to eight, nine seconds, I
think.
A goldfish is 12.
And so people's ability togrind like that and have a
delayed gratification, and so Ithink that can be a good thing,
depending on what they'rewatching right Now, opening
packs of Pokemon or whatever,I'm not sure, but like

(28:15):
appreciating someone justliterally mastering every aspect
.
I mean you look at some of thespeed runs on Mario.
It is every you know, down to a10th of a second.
Timing for just pure perfectionis remarkable.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
The other cool thing I'll add to that really quickly
is for some of these things inthe speed running community to
take place and just to clarifythat is beating a game as fast
as you can possibly beat it.
There are these massivecommunity efforts, like you know
.
I was watching one on DonkeyKong 64 the other day and
they've completely broken thegame.

(28:50):
But it's like some person on arandom message board had like
found this one part of the gameand worked on how to clip
through a wall and they foundthis thing that saved 10 minutes
and it's, you know, dozens ofpeople working together to find
these ways to break the game, tobeat these games in
unbelievable times and thenpracticing them for probably in

(29:11):
a lot of instances thousands, ifnot 10,000 hours to get them
down.
I mean, it's really cool.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
I think one of the things that I'd love your guys'
take on this when we played agame, there was an ending, right
, like, even though we wouldbeat the game, then we would go
back and be like, well, we gotto get every single side quest
and we had this, but at somepoint in time the game ended.
And one of the things that Istruggle with now with some of

(29:39):
the gaming is, like all thesegames are set up for never
ending, to your point, to thatroyal, whatever.
But even like, there's always anew skin, there's always a new
skin, there's always a newrelease.
There's always they'vedeveloped these games and you
buy and then they have theseason, and then they roll out a
new season every quarter.
And so I can only imagine whenI was a kid, if Zelda was

(30:00):
infinite, I'm not sure I wouldhave done anything else with my
life, sure.
And so they're building andputting so much time into these
different games and thesecharacters and they continue to
release stuff, to continue thedopamine.
So how do you guys process that?
Do you think that's dangerous?
Do you think that's a goodthing?
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (30:23):
I think that we're seeing a little bit now what
we've seen in other areas ofsociety where there's finally I
shouldn't say finally, becauseit's been happening for a while,
but there's pushback on that.
We spoke earlier about gettingas much as you can out of
something for as little effortas possible the whole
microtransaction thing.
Ea has been lambasted over theyears for certain different

(30:46):
implementations ofmicrotransactions.
I forget what game.
It was one of the Star Warsgames and it was just egregious.
It was just absolutely obvious,it was ridiculous and people
pushed back hard and the gamedidn't do well.
And I saw a video the other day.
I didn't click in it, but itwas something to the effect of
people don't want AAA gamesanymore because all of the AAA
studios are these massiveconglomerates that are publicly

(31:09):
traded, that need to hit salesgoals and need to hit numbers,
and so their entire businessesare based on abusive
microtransactions.
And then you have a smallerteam, like the Path of Exile
team I was talking about, whorelease a game for $30 and has
no real meaningful elements init that are pay-to-play and

(31:29):
people are clamoring and it'sone of the biggest releases of
you know it so far.
It was the biggest release in2024, right, and it's there.
There are some elements wherepeople are upset, but you
definitely are seeing morecriticism of the games that are
microtransaction heavy.
But I, I agree with you.
I mean, I said it in an earlierthing I felt, you know, I never

(31:50):
understood skins.
But, um, I I've played gamesand I'd love to get some,
because you did it with Clash ofClans, you didn't do it with
that.
Simpsons games that you gotreally good at I think you were
number one in the world at somepoint.
But I have a problem withBeatstar, right.
Beatstar is like rock band, butit's a tap game and there's

(32:11):
music, and every time I hear asong that I like, I need to get
it.
But to get it I have to buy theseason pass for $9.99.
And then I want to buy, but Iwant to play the songs, and so
unlimited play is $5 a week.
So I've already spent $15 or$10 for the month for the pass
and then $5 a week.
So there's 30 bucks a month I'mspending just to play the songs
I like.

(32:32):
And then there's the gymelement, right, and to unlock
other songs that weren't part ofthe monthly ladder that you
play on.
And all of a sudden you'repaying, you're playing 40, 50,
$60 a month because you knowthey figured out how to extract
that out of you.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
And that's what's horrible is, it's not just the
time, but it's like any gamethat you bought.
Up until probably 15, 20 yearsago, it was a purchase.
You purchased the entire game.
Sometimes there were add-onpacks or whatever that you could
buy for $10.
That gave you another 50, 100hours of playing.
And it's not just the time.

(33:11):
Now it's the money, right.
How about some any epic stories?
You just you talking about the$30, $40 a month?
I know I've got one for my kids, but, like, let's talk about
some of the miserable failuresor some of the going in deep
from a financial perspective onsome of these games.
I think people would beimpressed by that I think mine
is the least aggressive.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
So I'll start with mine and then your guys' stories
.
I think are probably much more.
But we've all heard horrorstories.
But we were in California, Ithink last fall not this past
fall or maybe no.
It was early spring of thisyear and just hanging out and I

(33:53):
opened up one of the credit cardapps or banking apps and my son
, who at the time was five, hadspent like $140 on V bucks to
buy Fortnite skins or somethingcrazy like that, because he was
using my account and I forgot toadd the extra password.
So you know, I would say thatis there.
There's obviously instanceswhere they figured out how to
buy robux, but but, um, nothingsuper crazy, uh, other than than

(34:17):
that one for him well, I had asimilar.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
I'll go after that.
I had a similar experience witholiver when he was six.
This was two years ago.
Um, we had lost track of thebank account statement for a
couple of months and logged backin there and he had racked up
$800 in purchases on Roblox, andI don't know how it got
unlocked or what happened, but Ihave just about had a complete

(34:41):
panic attack and I rememberJenna filed a dispute and I
think we ended up getting maybelike half of it taken off, but
he had racked up eight hundreddollars in just, I mean
frivolous nothing of anymaterial value whatsoever
unbelievable, and they'veprobably spent three or four

(35:05):
hundred on Madden legitimatelyover the course of the last few
years.
Now that that's over time,flash fans.
Well, I'll tell that story First.
I'll go into my oldest.
He plays first-person shootersand so anytime he's got any cash
at all he'll come in and he'llgive me a $20 bill and he'll be

(35:25):
like, yeah, I just got somethingnew.
So just this last week he spent$40.
He's paying for most of it now,but he has spent a fortune on
his games, um, over the years.
Uh, all the games he played.
But so my big story was clash ofclans.
Uh, I started playing this game.
It first came out and I waskind of I was just I was

(35:46):
grinding out, but it was just sohard to get further.
So I started with the $19.99packs, the gems, and you could
speed stuff up.
I was kind of getting used tothat.
Then I'm like, oh man, you canget a much more value for the
$99 one.
So you had the $99 packs.

(36:08):
I don't know what happened, butI think a few weeks passed and I
think I was two grand in.
I had everything.
I've upgraded everything to themax, my walls, I was winning
these battles, I mean I was deep.
And then they started releasingnew stuff and then it was like,

(36:31):
the further you got, the harderit was to advance and so the
more expensive it got, andluckily I ended up quitting cold
Turkey.
I don't know if it was my wifethat got me to quit, but I was a
couple thousand dollars in onthat one and luckily I haven't.
I haven't taken that plungesince.
I mean that's impressive, Imean like like that's, I mean

(36:51):
you would consider yourself, Ithink, a thoughtful person.
Right, you're not someonethat's completely getting taken
advantage of, whatever reason.
And there's something to besaid for how good companies have
gotten at just kind ofneurologically hijacking you and
getting you to spend someone ofhigh, someone of high cognitive

(37:12):
capability, spend those kind offunds.
I mean they've done a fantasticjob.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
You see the stories of people over in Asia I think
Japan specifically that spendhundreds of thousands of dollars
on microtransactions and thatlive in internet cafes because
there's nothing else or resortto selling in-game items.
I know they've eliminated a lotof that in recent history, but
there was a huge black market atone point in time where people
were getting on ebay or othermarketplaces and selling in-game
items at world of warcraft andthings like that, um, you know,

(37:39):
and loot creating and it's, it'svery it's, it's a very
interesting thing.
And we go back to talking aboutthe status game, like in a lot
of instances, like you getsucked into that rabbit hole and
that becomes your drive to havestatus in that community.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
I think that's important though.
So where I think it's gettingdangerous and at times for me is
like when it becomes youridentity or it becomes what you,
you know, like you know, I hopemy son and all my kids find I
think relationships are the mostimportant thing and they find

(38:17):
all of that and that video gamesis entertaining, it's a thing
that they can connect withothers on that it doesn't become
the focus of their life.
And I think if you're notcareful, it can.
It can become, because it is soaddicting, it can become the
focus of their life.
It can become, because it is soaddicting it can become the
focus of their life.
It can be something that that'sall they desire to do.
They get home on Friday nightand it's not what are my friends

(38:37):
doing?
Or let's go do this.
It's like, okay, I'm ready topull my eight hour shift, go to
bed at two, get up tomorrow, dothe same thing and log that 20
hour, 25 hour weekend and it'sall about the skins and you're
growing and you're getting that,that satisfaction right as a
person that you may not begetting.
It's harder to get acceptanceand satisfaction from humans
these days, really easy to getit from video games, and so that

(38:59):
becomes a desire, and then youdo that long enough and then, I
think, all of a sudden you'relike you don't have any
connection to people at all, andthen it's a all of your meaning
is tied and and then all of asudden you're like you kind of
fall out.
So I think there's some dangersin that and I haven't figured
out how.
I mean we've tried to limit.
I'm not sure that any of mykids are going down that path,

(39:21):
but I think that's a fear rightOf making sure that they have a
balance and that it just stays aform of entertainment.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, I wonder how we've all had those points and
times in our lives and I wonderhow we've come out of it, if I
say favorite PC game of all time.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Age of Empires 2.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Right, no question.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
We drilled a hole in the wall to connect our
computers at Purdue.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
We played it on the Purdue network for a long time.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
I snapped out of that .
It was just because I was doingreally bad in school.
I needed to go to class.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, but similarly, when you moved out I was playing
, and with Call of Duty, verysimilarly, when I was in the
nightlife industry that wetalked about a little bit
earlier, that afforded me theopportunity.
Once we built that empire overa couple of years, that afforded
me the opportunity to playeight to 10 hours a day.
And one thing I don't thinkpeople understand, that aren't

(40:18):
heavily into video games, is tobe at the upper end, at the
upper echelon of competitiveness, especially in first-person
shooters, especially in RTSgames like Age of Empires.
You have to play four to sixhours a day or you'll lose that
reaction time that you need tobe great at those games.
So it's this really.

(40:39):
It's kind of like we've talkedabout in a number of these
episodes.
It's like man.
It does help you a lot from aproblem-solving, a quick,
problem-solving perspective.
It does help with hand-eyecoordination and it is something
at least those games were verygratifying when you would win
and you'd perform well.
And so it's like with fitness.

(40:59):
It's like, well, you're goingto have to play six hours a day
if you want to be the best ofthe best.
Are you willing to sacrificethat six hours?
Do you have the ability tobalance your life in a way
that'll afford you that six hourtime to be somebody who excels
in that particular arena.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
What do you think it goes from here?
Like, let's fast forward 20years.
Virtual reality has started tocome out a little bit and I feel
like there have been timeswhere it has it feels to me, and
I've been.
I haven't really gotten into it, I haven't bought any of the VR
systems, but it seems likethey're kind of hot and cold.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
It's a novelty.
I think you put it on for thefirst time.
You're like whoa, because it'sgotten so much better from the
old.
You put your Samsung device ina piece of cardboard.
Vr to the original before.

(41:55):
Was it before facebook bottom?
But anyways, the originaloculus, yeah, the original
oculus.
And then to the meta, quest 2and now the 3 and some of the
seen, some of the new ones.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Have you had them?
Tried them on?

Speaker 2 (42:03):
I've just I've not tried anything later than the
two what?

Speaker 1 (42:07):
what do we think it's going to be in 20 years?
Is it going to go more vr?
Is it going to stay like gamingsystems on tvs, like what is?
What does gaming look like in20 years, 30 years?
I mean it's a great question.
I I think they're building outI mean, you've seen ready player
one right, haptic suits andthings of more real life.
I it's really going to beinteresting to see what AI does

(42:30):
and what technology does to workto um the economy to what.
What like?
What are people doing?
What are their skill sets?
How do they survive?
Like, arguably, there's a,there is a.
You know, you could say theworld could go a thousand
different ways, but one of themcould be is like you know being,

(42:50):
you could live in a virtualreality, like you remember when
at bitcoin, they're selling allthese different you know digital
like land places where youcould buy stuff and you go in as
an avatar, like it could get tothat.
I hope it never does um, but Idon't.
I just don't know what that,what that looks like I don't.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
I don't think it will , and I say that because you've
seen pushback on virtual realityand you can say that Apple's
headset failed because it was aprice point thing, right, but
the hype around that particularitem was off the charts and

(43:30):
Apple Vision Pro is now dead.
Um, I think there's somethingmaybe it's a a something wired
in us that that doesn't, uh,because that doesn't feel
comfortable with things that areon people's faces.
I mean, even going as far backas Google glass, right, when we
had that, it was one of thefirst people to have that.

(43:50):
Nothing in that realm has everstuck.
The other thing that'sinteresting is we were lucky
enough to live in the era whereit came from nothing to
something.
Video games were around when wewere kids.
Heavily, there were a couple ofhome systems, but it was mostly
in the arcade and we've got tosee it to evolve to what it is

(44:11):
today.
But if you think about it forthe last, I don't know every now
and then you'll see like apreview of the newest render on
the newest Unreal Engine andit's like, oh my god, this is
crazy.
But if you look at the games,nothing's really changed in the
last four to six years it hasn'tgotten exponentially better or

(44:33):
that much more realistic orcreated a world that you get
lost in and feels like actualreality, and most of the
mechanics of the games haveremained relatively similar.
I mean, we were playing some ofthe early dark soul stuff when
you were in your old house inmarion, and elden ring has most

(44:55):
of the same mechanics that thatdid, and that was a 10 year
difference in time span.
So, um, I think that people arestarting to appreciate the the
difficulty of certain games.
The um appreciate the thingsthat we appreciated when video
games came into play, and thehope is that it will kind of

(45:20):
return to it.
Never will return fully to whatit was, but to more of a
traditional form ofentertainment.
And I don't know if otherindustries have experiences I'm
sure they have and maybe we canexpound on that a little bit
Like, have there been instancesin cinema?

(45:41):
Or like gambling as a form ofentertainment?
Have there been instances ingambling where, like, maybe you
could go with gambling to theheight of online poker?
Like it was absurd?
Got a couple of those storiesright but they've pulled.
It's kind of been pulled back alittle bit in that arena
although on the other side of itwhen it comes to sports

(46:02):
gambling betting is through theroof blown up, yeah, um you know
.
So I I think it's kind of comeback a little bit again.
Maybe my world view is a littlebit off.
Um, and this is my echo chamberis it relates to kind of the
content that I watch and thepeople that I follow, but um, I
I don't think it's going to.
I I virtual reality I mean,that's it.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
You got to have something on that makes you feel
like you're in a completelydifferent world, and if those
don't catch on, I would agreewith you.
They're just so stinking good,and the games that they're
coming out with are good.
I just don't know if themarket's going to shift to your
point.
If people want it to shift,yeah, it's going to be
interesting.
I mean, I think you've got liketablets.
I think it'll be interesting toknow if it retraces and does so

(46:51):
permanently, or if it bouncesback.
So tablets are a perfectexample.
Microsoft came out with tablets.
Right, it flopped, it was acomplete flop and the iPad.
And then, I don't know how manyyears later, multiple years
later the iPad came out, and ittook a little bit of time too,
but then, all of a sudden,tablets were like it was crazy,
crazy.
So I'm just wondering if, foruh, for v, for virtual reality,

(47:13):
if it's still bless you, uh, isthis a little early, or if it's
just a something, a trend that'snot going to catch I mean,
you've seen other otherendeavors, like with the woozer,
which is that wearable speakerthat you can feel, or I have.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
I have a pair of shoes at home that have speakers
in them that were or notspeakers, but like vibrating
subwoofer feeling and you'resupposed to immerse you more in
the game, and I don't think anyof those products have ever
taken off in any meaningful way,but it may be something that's
just too early.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
They were with the Oculus or I forget which version
it was, but they had a dealwith the NBA ticket where you
could like, put them on andyou'd be sitting in the arena
yeah, that was dope.
Yeah, so there's been somethings and I could see like
concerts, like um.
So I don't know where they'vegone with that, because I
haven't played much in the vr.
We just charged it back up.
I think we got the version lastyear.

(48:04):
We haven't got a new one yet.
But, um, I limit that becauseof the kids and the
visuals and the ages, but mykids would.
They'll take any device orscreen they can get their hands
on as long as I'll let them.
So let's talk about that for aminute.
There's been a lot of studiesthat have come out about kids
and screen time, especiallyyounger kids.

(48:27):
I have some close familymembers who are basically not
allowing their kid to have anyeyes on a screen until he turns,
I think, five or six orsomething, because there's a lot
of research out there thatshows kind of some of the.
I think what is still a littlebit out there is how temporary

(48:48):
or permanent is the damage?
Right, but I know for my kids,when they play for multiple
hours and particularly if itends a little too abruptly,
sometimes it can end smoothlyand they can transition, but I
would say that's the exception.
There is a level of irritability, there's a level of uh,

(49:12):
frustration or just antagonismthat comes out when screens are.
I can noticeably tell abehavioral difference and again
we talk about context andeverything's boring, because
when you're getting the most,you know, when you're just
getting crushed with dopamineand you've got some of the most
engaging things, everything elsedoes seem boring.

(49:35):
I remember it was actually justa little bit of a sidebar.
They used to talk about howsitting around a campfire
reading a story was like a veryhighly engaging event back, like
way back in the day, like youknow, when they I mean cause
obviously writing and theprinting press was it hasn't
been around forever.

(49:56):
Right, for us it seems like that.
But to have like books andthings to read was like that,
was like a crate, and nowobviously even that people
struggle to sit down and read.
But now, now it's, it continuesto escalate, right In terms, is
it dopamine desensitization, Iguess, is where I'm going down
that path, and so that piece andthen the irritability of it,

(50:17):
like what have you guys seenwith your kids?
And like, are there certainlimits that you've kind of seen,
where it's like they only playfor this long or at certain ages
?
You're like, where do you, whatdo you observe and what are
your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Well, what I'm noticing is for me, for my kids
I think it's especially theolder girls it's more about the
social connections that they'vemade in the game.
Like it's crazy for me, withmiles, miles watches probably
more than he should, but when Isay miles, turn it off, no
fighting, just boom done.
And obviously we've talkedabout you know, he is in five to

(50:54):
six hours of sports a week ontop of it, so there's not a ton
of time.
There just isn't time in theday for that for him.
But there's really never anyfighting, you know, with the
girls, though.
On the other hand, it is asocial thing for them.
They will join games and playFortnite with a lot of their
friends or Roblox with theirfriends, and when they're asked

(51:16):
to get off those screens, I doget a lot of pushback.
My middle child is probably themost temperamental.
She's kind of temperamentalregardless.
It's more along the lines whenfriends are involved in an
online gaming experience, butshe doesn't want to turn it off,
period.
Um, you know, and Kay again,she'll turn it off right away.

(51:38):
If I walk into a room and she'son the phone, it's time she's
tossing it to me and I put it onthe thing.
But if there's kids, there'sother friends involved, then
it's a little bit more.
But we were like that Get offthe phone at night.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
You know if we're talking on the phone, depending
on how old we were this phonewhen they came out first.
You know you didn't have thecordless, but then you could
keep it in your room and calllate at night and people had
their own lines I remember doingthat.
How about you?
Well, we're so just to give youour kind of rules and
boundaries.
Kids get an hour a day on ontheir phones.
Um, my seven-year-old does nothave a phone, my 11 and
12-year-old and 15-year-old do.
Fully functioning phones.

(52:14):
Fully functioning phones.
They get an hour on practicallyperiod.
The only thing the exception tothat is they can text and they
can do those weird video callswith their friends.
You have that set up a screentime limit like it shuts down
after an hour.
It just blocks.
So they're all.

(52:35):
They're all iphones and theyjust.
It just collapses everythingand anything outside of text
messaging and calling because,like, again, it's their way to
communicate and connect and I'mokay with that.
So they'll sit on those randomcalls with 12 people on a video
chat and sit there and like,look at each other and what,
whatever?
25 person group texts yeah, sothere's a lot of that going on
with the girls.
The girls especially, tend touse the phones more socially.

(52:55):
We have no social media.
Our girls do not have anysocial media platform.
Um, they do roblox, that's thething that that, uh, eden is
really involved in.
Um dti, so is.
So that's an hour phone time.
Does that include any sort ofscreens, like if they wanted to
play video games or they want todo other?

(53:16):
things, that's where it getsdicey.
We don't allow video gamesduring the week, so that's not a
problem.
So during the week, Mondaythrough Friday they got an hour
and what happens is when they'redone with that, they'll go sit
in front of the TV and watchanime, or Isaiah's figured out,
he can get YouTube kids on thetelevision.
So Isaiah, the seven year old,he does not have a device, but
he constantly steals any phonehe can find and he'll go hide

(53:38):
somewhere and watch YouTube kits.
Um, he's into Mr Beast right now, and you know he would.
He would love to play Fortnite.
I haven't really let him.
He does play video games, Um,and he's got into the Zeldas and
some of the other ones andactually is pretty good at that
stuff.
So I've been more lenient withmy boys.
Roman he's under the same thing, though, because I was finding

(54:01):
that, as even a high schooler,he was spending five to six
hours a day on his phone.
Those kids are smart.
They were figuring out ways tobreak around things and do
things, and what's happened?
One of the tough parts for ushas been he's got a school iPad
and they've figured out how todo whatever they want on the

(54:22):
iPad.
They install Retro Bowl and theycan play football on their iPad
in classrooms, and so when Ilimit everything on his phone
and then the other rule we haveis no devices in your room at
night, right, so that's.
The other thing is like youtake the devices out of the room
because I don't want themliving in the room.
So on the weekends I want themto have freedom Again.

(54:43):
I want it to be entertainment,not addiction.
But the hardest part is is likeyou're better off to just take
it away period, because then itdoesn't, it doesn't become a
thing.
But my, my girls are prettygood, they get off of it, they
can go days without it.
But there are times andespecially when you come off of
a break like we're getting readyto go in to break and they're

(55:04):
going to have more access, boy,by the time that's over.
It's going to be a nightmare.
I find that that is also thecase.
I mentioned, I think, in someother episodes.
We've had to do some detoxesand it's so much easier because
there's no negotiating of howmuch time.
We don't have the limits set upin the devices.

(55:26):
So it's like did you set atimer, did you not?
Or hey, I didn't use all mytime yesterday, so can I use
more time today.
And hey, it's like did you seta timer, did you not?
Or hey, I didn't use all mytime yesterday, so can I use
more time today?
And hey, it's the.
You know, it's raining outside.
I can't go out there.
Like, can I have?
Like?
There's just so much debate andnegotiation and like stress.
I find with that, if it's justnot there at all, it's like a
horrible couple of days to getthere and then, like you know,

(55:47):
generally forget about it we'veloaded up their schedule so much
for us that balance kind ofhappens.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Naturally they just don't have time.
I mean, what is today?
I don't even know, but I thinktoday was a day or yesterday was
a day that my middle kid hastwo and a half hours of practice
, and so she goes to cheer at 415 and she gets home at 7 15
solves the problem is alreadysolved, yeah, like at most, and
she eats dinner when she getshome at 7.15.
The problem's already solved Atmost, and she eats dinner when
she gets home.

(56:12):
So at most she has 30 minutesof time on her phone.
One of the things that I'vealways been curious about is
social adaptation with extremescreen time removal.

(56:34):
When I say extreme, I'm like mykid isn't going to touch a
device until they're 14.
Cause, you hear about that.
You know we've.
We've had to fight it and I'vebeen happy with it.
Actually, you know my kidssaying they don't have any
social media.
I think they have.
It's called Coverstar orsomething or Coverstar, and it's

(56:56):
kind of like YouTube Kids, butit's a kids-only platform.
You have to be under a certainage.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Did you take YouTube Kids off?
Do you allow your kids to haveYouTube Kids?

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Yeah, well, I mean, my kids actually have a
restricted version of YouTube,so they actually have full
YouTube, but it's for 13 andunder.
So you can set that up now andso, but again, like Miles,
watches it on the main TV in themain room.
So we're always conscious ofwhat it is that he's taking a
look at, and most of it is likeMark Rober stuff and Mr B stuff

(57:30):
and things that are prettyhighly produced and that have
some type of inspirationalmessage and or, um, something to
take away from it.
You know, rober's intoengineering and solving problems
and things of that nature.
But I've always wondered willthere become a point in time?
Um, you know, we've dealt withit a little bit because my kids

(57:50):
don't have social media and theydo have friends.
Again, when you're at schoolsthat are this big, there are
going to be parents that gettheir kids and it's everybody's
prerogative phones at seven.
Right, there's a kid in K'sclass who has a new iPhone 16,
he's 10.
They have full-blown,unfettered access to phones and
all social media at all times.
And you know, I had theconversation the other day about

(58:11):
Tik TOK.
Dad, I want Tik TOK.
All my friends are doing thesedances and this is at a birthday
party overnight and I don'tknow the trends and I don't know
this and I don't know that andthat's real, it is, and it's
like oh well, you know, I'msorry, Tough.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
But there is an element of that social
connection of like our girlsdeal with that from time to time
, where it's like there's thesethings that certain girls know
and they don't know becausethey're not watching those
things and doing those things.
But it's a it's a real thingwhen you have different levels
of parenting happen and to yourpoint, it doesn't mean one's
right or wrong, like I don'twant to say that we're doing it

(58:52):
right and someone else is doingit wrong, but it does create, uh
, a social disconnection forpeople that are having different
experiences, because there's anunrelatability based on what
they're watching and so like, oh, did you see that thing or did
you see the new dance?
And like, all of a sudden they,they feel left out and it's
tough as a parent.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Sometimes, right, right, you're like, oh man, I
don't want my kid to feel leftout.
But ultimately, you know, Ithink, the negative thing that
some of those platforms do andsome people are more
impressionable Again, I wouldsay my middle kid, kennedy, is
more impressionable than any ofmy other two they normalize
behavior.
That's not.
If you get down the wrongrabbit hole.
They normalize behavior thatisn't normal.

(59:29):
You don't like YouTube, prankchannels and people making like
one of the things attracts lotsof views and this is something
that's interesting In your teensand twenties, I think.
For us, god, this has gone kindof off the rails.
But social media, kind of cameinto play for us.

(59:54):
I think Facebook was when guyswere in college.
I didn't even have access tothat.
For me it was myspace like, oh,five, yeah, and so for me it was
.
It was more myspace leadinginto that and then and then
whatever before that.
But like, um, I'll kind of saywhere I'm going with this the
people who have, when we were,when we were in our early 20s,
we were much more vocal.
We would get into theseFacebook arguments with anybody,

(01:00:16):
and it was you and I did it, weall would do it where we would
just build out these kind oflike in video games, these just
meticulously well-researched,every point and counterpoint was
laid out, and we would just be,we would eviscerate people and
just take absolute passion inhow cutting we were with our

(01:00:38):
verbiage and our messages.
That get attention in socialmedia are still those people
that are really outspoken, thatare really aggressive, that are
not afraid to say things thatare controversial, and I think,
with the kids seeing that andbeing exposed to that, this is

(01:01:00):
the kind of.
Again, the negative side of itis that becomes normal, like, oh
, I'm going to call her outbecause that's what you do and
I'm going to check her or himbecause that's what you do, or
fight him or do whatever.
And then you know, of course,as you get older and more mature
, you realize that that's notthe path to the right place.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Favorite video game of all time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Switches, switches, all time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, don't pull us back to video games here all
time.
Yeah, don't pull us back tovideo games here.
And then my follow-up question,while you're thinking about
that, is if you had to pick avideo game for your kids to play
for the rest of their childhood, which ones you, which one
would you pick and why?
And that could be from anentertainment value perspective,
could be from a learningperspective what, uh, what was

(01:01:51):
your favorite game of all timeand which one would you pick for
your kids to play for the restof their childhood?
I mean, there's so manymonumental like I would have to
just pick Top five.
I'd have to pick a genre andsay like top five, zelda, all

(01:02:13):
the way from tears of thekingdom and breath of the wild,
which are phenomenal games whichI've got to play with my kids
together and that's been a blast.
So those two.
But back to like.
If I could say the Zelda serieswas an incredible series.
There were the final Fantasy IIin particular.

(01:02:33):
That would be one that I'd beokay with my kids playing that
or one of the new Zeldas.
Like Final Fantasy II, there'sjust so many lessons and there's
just so many things in that andI love the characters in it and
I love the storyline, so itwould have to be in the Zelda
range or maybe Final Fantasy,one of the Zeldas or Final
Fantasies, just because I thinkwhen you play with something as

(01:02:54):
a kid you just have thisconnection to it.
That would be where I wouldland in that realm.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
You go, and then I'll go.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
I would say my favorite game of all time.
This is really tough becauseI'd say it's between two Final
Fantasy VII and X.
In particular, I feel like weplayed more VII.
I feel like we played more X incollege those two but Madden is

(01:03:27):
right there.
I played a lot of Madden andthat was a lot of fun and I just
from a social perspective, thatwas really big and I don't know
how many people play some ofthe sports games anymore because
first-person shooters andthere's so many other different
genres.
I don't know that Madden iswhat it was 20 years ago.

(01:03:49):
It's crazy to think about whenI was going through school.
But I would say those two,probably on both fronts in terms
of my favorite games growing up, and I think there's just a ton
of lessons embedded into those,from the problem solving to the
delayed gratification to thehand-eye coordination and
strategy, the social aspect ofit being able to play it

(01:04:13):
together with people, with them.
What do you think you spent themost hours in?
I think it's AOE.
I mean it's so hard becausethere were phases where I did
both in such high volumes Likewe played AOE 2 at Purdue.

(01:04:33):
I mean we would go on 10-hourbinges and go to bed at 6 in the
morning.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Well, that's after I did it with.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
TJ for three years.
I think AOE 2 might be my.
We played that a ton Because meand you did that for three or
four years and then I flippedaround and did it with you.
I had like a seven-year run inthat game.
But a seven-year run in thatgame but Madden.
There were lots of years whereI played just so much Madden at
college and shortly after Iremember being down in my
basement.
It was the only time I ever hada migraine and gosh, I never

(01:05:00):
really could never relate topeople that had migraines.
But I sat down, I don't knowwhat I was doing, I was kind of
sitting like sideways andwhatever, and I must have played
for like eight or 10 hours andI felt a little bit of like kink
in my neck but I had no idea itwas coming.
I had to stop because I thinkthis was maybe close to when
Noah was born, so it was maybe10 years ago.

(01:05:21):
I remember just kind of gettinga little bit of a headache and
I couldn't get out of bed forlike two days.
My head just pounded and I wasthrowing up and like it was.
It was unbelievable and no bodyaches, no, nothing, it was just
all um.
But I, yeah, I would say, Iwould say those would be close.

(01:05:43):
But we also spent a ton of timeon some of the final fantasies.
Now, the final fantasies, Idon't know that it racked up
because I mean there was an inchto those games right we might
have played them multiple times.
We might have put in 30, 40, 50hours each time, but I mean we
played hundreds of games ofalien I would have to top five
it, but it's all around specificexperiences.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
My safety blanket's always final fantasy, one um,
anytime I see a system or that'skind of something I gravitate
back to.
Really enjoyed that game um,double 007, golden eye.
There were a couple of yearswhere we would play um.
What an experience.
You, the three of us, phildodick and then john faust, who

(01:06:28):
wasn't playing um, was downwatching Happy Gilmore.
We'd stay in the basement forAPDG 12 hours.
Yeah, for an entire summer,every day.
So that was a big one.
For me.
Aoe was a huge one as well,playing that for hours and hours
a day.
I think the game I've put morehours into than any is just a

(01:06:49):
Call of Duty series.
I mean, there was a point intime where there was a year, I
think probably when ModernWarfare 2 came out that I put in
probably 3,000 hours in a yearBecause, you know again, my
lifestyle afforded it, you know,in terms of having that time
available.
If I think about what I'd liketo see my kids play, I can't

(01:07:13):
think of a specific game, butI'd like something that rewards
like a Fallout 3, that'ssandboxy and rewards creativity
and really challenges standardsin that game.
I think, if I remember right,you can.

(01:07:33):
You can build in or craftthings out of things you would
never think to craft together,to make things to help you solve
problems kind of like spells inthe latest zelda and breath of
the wild.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
You just put random things together, yeah yeah, so
something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
um, you know, although I would love it if they
were to play something like aFinal Fantasy, I don't think
that that translates well totoday's kids.
It's just not sophisticatedenough, and I just know it's a
nostalgia thing for me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
So you mentioned and this is 100% true we would be
down in the summer.
We had probably 60 days ofsummer and we would probably,
from 8 a had probably 60 days ofsummer, and we would probably
from 8am to 10pm and we'd playbasketball probably for a few
hours as part of that, but wewould probably put in, I would
say, a good 500 hours of videogames over the course of the
summer, and I guess I feel like,if I look at my kids today, I

(01:08:28):
would just be in a completepanic if they were spending 500
hours.
I guess I feel like, if I lookat my kids today, I would just
be in a complete panic if theywere spending 500 hours a summer
playing video games.
However, we made it out, and Iwonder if there's also aspects
of this where we're overreactinga little bit.
Is it some of this that it's aphase and they're going to take
what they take from it, butthey're?

(01:08:49):
Is it some of this that theyyou know it's a phase and
they're going to take what theytake from it, but they're going
to grow out of this?
Or are games so addicting andthese days that we really need
to be more intentional aboutmanaging the you'll know in
about 15 years.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
I think that the social I think social skills are
so important.
I think if we talked about that, if we sat around and talked
about that for an hour, wetalked about any skill set as a
human.
That is the most important.
We heard this from our parents.
It's the most important foroverall success is by far your
social skills, yourproblem-solving, your
communication.
For me, when the fear subsidesis when they're doing it

(01:09:29):
together.
So my kids have recently beenplaying fortnight together
downstairs on a team and theywent down one day and they said
dad, we're going to playfortnight, can we get a new skin
?
I said, if you win 10 games oftrio, you can get a new skin.
They were downstairs for 10hours and won one game, but like
I didn't have I never problemwith that because I was
listening to them talking aboutstrategy and how to win, and

(01:09:52):
then I went down and played withthem and kind of coached them a
little bit on how to particular.
You know, if you want to winthe game, guys, you might not
want to fight, you might.
You might not want to take thisapproach or that approach or
you might want to focus onstaying together versus like the
things we've learned, but Ithat's when I had no problem and
I think that may have been withour parents, like we were down
there together and I think thatwas a big thing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
It was an end of games.
We were down there together, wewere involved in enough stuff
that always brought us out of it, and I think there's probably
some of both.
But as AI gets more and moreprevalent and it takes a lot of
the technical skills of what youneed to do and learn, really

(01:10:33):
the only thing left is socialinteraction.
Right, like we were talkingabout this in the insurance
world, if you can have AI can doall the technical stuff, if it
can read a contract, which is apolicy, and it can tell you what
it's missing and what the gapsare like, that is a huge
skillset in insurance, right?
You have the individual thathas to understand contract law

(01:10:54):
and be able to analyze thepolicy, and then you have the
sales guy, and sometimes that'sthe same guy.
But if you can replace and orhelp a sales guy with the
technology side of it, now it'sall relationships and nothing
moves in this world withoutsales, and so I'm the same as
you, like if they're doing it in, like when call of duty came
out and it was like the firsttime where you could get your

(01:11:15):
headsets on and we could allsync up and play together.
That was awesome.
I mean you guys were out inSeattle, we were still playing.
I mean 4am came quick, um, andyou could just, you would get
lost for hours and hours andhours.
But I don't have as muchconcern when it becomes a social
aspect.
It is the individual aspect towhere you, when somebody chooses

(01:11:36):
video games over socialinteraction over a long period
of time, is where I think itstarts to get dangerous.
And when you say socialinteraction, you're defining
that as they're playing withpeople in their social circle,
locally, people that they know.
Is that that how you woulddefine the social interaction?

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
As opposed to first-person shooter with random
people.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
I think, well, I think you could.
Yeah, I think it's veryimportant, but there is
definitely a little bit of value, even if you're playing like
it's a different dynamic, right,because when we were coming up,
there wasn't the ability likethere is now, where you can jump
on discord and play withrandoms.
You know you can get a newrandom group of four people
every time and just rip throughback.

(01:12:16):
Then you would find somebody ingame that had a particular
skill set or that complimentedwell or that went on a good run
with you for three or four hoursand they'd become part of your
crew and then you develop asocial.
So it's just another personthat you're honing your social
skills, um, that may be fromsomewhere else in the country
and have some differentpersonality quirks and it's
helping you improve that.
So you know it's different inthat regard, as opposed to just

(01:12:39):
ripping mindless people throughyour group and never really
developing a bond with anybodyor um I think there was a game
called destiny 2 where, where myoldest you have to you, they do
enforce teamwork where you haveto yeah, you have to go on
raids and you you take peoplethrough it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
So there's an element of coaching and showing people
how to do stuff and someonetaking you through it.
So I think games like that thatencourage that type of
interaction are positive.
If you could take one platformoff the table or one game off
the table indefinitely, whatwould you take off?

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
mobile gaming.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
Like like I I I struggle to validate in other
words versus youtube, versusvideo games.
We talked about this a littlebit but, like to your point,
well, if you limit their phonebut then they go straight to the
tv and watch cartoons or anime,like which one does the most

(01:13:36):
damage?
I think it's.
I think you said this earlier.
I think the shorts, the shorts,regardless of its youtube
shorts or whatever it is thosethings, um, I think they the
attention span, they crush it.
I think that's when the kidsget more irritable.
Um, I think the video gaming alot of times is skill.

(01:13:57):
Uh.
So I would say, if I eliminatedsomething, it would probably be
like youtube shorts or some,some form of shorts that that
the kids got involved in robloxwould be.
There's some positive stuffthere, but there's some weird
stuff that happens in that gametoo.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Yeah, I have one Most catastrophic video game
experience, Like something thathappened.
You lost a save file, you gotbeat by someone.
I have one, but I'm going to golast.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Most catastrophic.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Something you remember that just hit hard.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Well, I will just tell my party poker story, even
though it wasn't a video gamestory, it was an online poker
story.
I can't think of anythingunless one of you remember, but
I remember going to school wouldhave been my freshman year.

(01:14:55):
I think it was my freshman yearand I had a certain amount of
money for the semester, for theentire semester.
I think I had $700 maybe forthe semester of spending money
that mom gave me up front and Iwould play party poker on
occasion.
We played in the summers and Iwould put in $50.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Pocket ones four and two.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
What's that?

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Pocket ones four and two.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
That's right, that was a good hand.
I would put in $50, and if Ilost then I would be done.
I was always just pretty goodabout setting limits and I was
at school and no one waswatching and I had.
You know, it's one of thosethings where you're kind of
experimenting with stuff whenyou're out on your own.
I remember I put in $50 and Iran it up to like 250 bucks and
I was like man, this is going tobe great, I'm going to have

(01:15:42):
almost $1,000 for the semester.
And then I proceeded over thenext hour to lose it all and my
only thought in my head was,like that is the most
unbelievable bad streak of cardsthat you could possibly have.
Right, like to lose $250straight.
I was playing a reasonabletable limit to where, like you
had to have an unbelievably badstreak to lose that much.

(01:16:03):
It's like I gotta put the 50,because you gotta you know you
gotta put another 50 in to getthe swings right.
Wait for the cards come back,kind of like a slot machine, you
know you want to put enough into where it like pays you back.
Right, you pull a slot machine,so anyways.
So I put in 50 bucks and I lostit.
And I was just thinking tomyself like this has got to come
back.
And so I thought, well, here'swhat I'm going to do now.

(01:16:25):
When I put in this third 50dollars, uh, I am going to play
just this one last kind of atthe same limits.
And I ended up losing that $50.
And I was like this is justlike the odds of this has got to
be excruciatingly low.
So I'm like I'm going to put ina hundred, this time $250, but
I'm going to go up the limit.
I'm going to go up a tablebecause I'm going to get my

(01:16:46):
cards when the you know when I'mbetting more money.
And I remember putting in thenext 100, and then I lost it.
And I put in the next 100, andI lost it.
And I put in another 150, and Ilost it.
And I remember sitting there itwas like 3 in the morning and I
had lost $500, the vastmajority of my money for that

(01:17:07):
entire semester.
I remember just sitting there,stunned.
I had eaten.
I still remember that momentthere was a box of Mad Mushroom
Pizza.
It would have been off to myleft of where I was sitting and

(01:17:28):
it was just one of the mosteye-opening and, uh like
sobering experiences, because Ihad lost 500 real dollars like
never have I had I had ever.
You know we had grew up notwith abundance of excess, but
like we never had to real worryabout financial and it was the
first time that I realized thatlike I'm not in a play world,

(01:17:49):
like I literally just lost $500and I've got to somehow survive
on $200 for the semester, um, itwas, it was travesty got
something you're gonna go todomain wars, aren't you?
Yep, I uh.
I don't remember anythingparticular.
I know that there's been timeswhere someone wrote over a file

(01:18:11):
or didn't save anything, butnothing like I can sit at this
moment and say this.
I remember where I was sittingand what I was doing damn right,
I'm going to dope wars.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
I'm never gonna forget it.
Yeah, this is good gosh.
So there's this game called.
There's this it was.
It was like a.
It was almost like a text-basedgame.
There were very rudimentarygraphics.
I think it was an iPad game oran Apple game or something, and
the premise of the game was youbought and sold things and you

(01:18:43):
attacked people and whateverthey dropped you would get.
But it was like a traditionalgangster-type game and you tried
to build this empire and thenyou'd buy new things.
And again back to kind of ourtheme here.
It was building, building,building.
Well, I was in Seattle, todd.
Was you might have, were you inIndy at the time?
I don't know, but you weredefinitely back on East Coast

(01:19:05):
time.
We would run the game 24-7because there was a running
clock and so when I would sleephe'd get up and he'd play, and
then he'd sleep and I'd play andwe were like hitting the
leaderboards.
We were way up there.
Well, I swear to God, and nogoing into this as TJ tells the
story.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
Tj, which is part of the context, is TJ's always been
very good about just being ableto pick things apart and at a
young age he is always able tokind of figure out how things
worked and would leverage thatkind of to an advantage in a lot

(01:19:47):
of cases.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
So in this particular case In this particular case
and I don't know if we'd heardabout it post or prior that
there was hacking going on inthis community and I got in a
battle with somebody and theydropped like $30 million or
something and in a normal battleyou'd get a grand or two grand
or three grand and I got it andI started buying all of these

(01:20:11):
things because you could.
You could buy um or or set uplike enterprises that would
generate more money, like a goldmine, I think was the top thing
you could do and you could haveit, and so I bought all of this
stuff and our account gotlocked out.
It got shut down and I emailedhim.
I'm like no, and Todd from theday it happened swears that I

(01:20:33):
did it, that I hacked it that Iput a cheat in and I got this 30
and I will never admit.
I swear to god, I fought arandom guy.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
I actually do remember when this went down and
he dropped 30 million dollarslike I bet, I bet he dropped30
million.
I'm willing to let that one goafter 20 years.
But I was convinced that TJ hadtried to find a way to get the
edge and got the account shutdown, and I mean that would
sound-.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
And I don't blame you , because I typically would do
something like that- I do wantto say this and this maybe is a
good closing statement, becauseyou made a kind of a statement
earlier.
I think that the three of usreally, collectively, because of
our exposure to video games,because of our exposure to
everything, and I think we'vegot to be cognizant of the fact

(01:21:21):
that it's a moving target.
When we were younger, thebalance between we're just
talking about social the balancebetween sports and video games
was probably here, right, asopposed to this being the middle
.
Today it's probably right inthe middle or maybe even a
little bit more.
This way, I think that and Iguess I'll speak for myself and

(01:21:43):
then maybe, if you guys want toclose out too with how you feel
about it, my career and successis almost a direct result of
that.
The ability, my entire skill set, is the ability to translate
the technical into the sales andor layman's terms.
That's what I do, like.
You know, the exposure that wegot to the types of people, the

(01:22:08):
technical skills that weacquired, solving problems in
those realms, things that welearned about that technology,
just as secondary benefits,right, building the computers to
play Age of Empires on.
But for me, that skillset,combined with the skillset that

(01:22:29):
we learned in sports and inother things and the blending of
the two, and being able to talkto the technical people that
we've talked about may, at somepoint in time in that world or
now, be considered the basementnerds and talk to the people
that were the stars of thesports team and blend those

(01:22:50):
worlds.
And talk to the people thatwere the stars of the sports
team and blend those worlds.
For me, I think it's invaluable, and whether or not it was an
intentional move by our parents,you know, I think that that's
something I'm forever, forevergrateful for, and so I think
about that when it comes to ourkids.
I want to make sure my kidshave enough of a blend that they

(01:23:10):
can handle both sides of it.
And now we could spend anotherentire podcast going deeper on
our social exposure from acultural perspective, but
keeping it relevant to thisparticular conversation, I would
say that it was a real positivething.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Yeah, I would point out three things that I would
say are probably real positivethings that stuck with me out of
that.
Delayed gratification iscertainly one of them.
I would say the problem solvingis another one, because you
were put in some very abstractsituations and you had to
explore.

(01:23:46):
But I would say probably thenumber one thing if I had to
look back and really unpack itthat I took from our gaming is
the standard of excellence thatwe set.
We set a standard of excellence.
It wasn't just beating thegames, it was dominating them
and perfecting that.
I feel like I directly carriedinto other areas in my life

(01:24:13):
Personally, academically andprofessionally.
I feel like there was a part ofme that enjoyed so much that
satisfaction and gratification,albeit delayed, when we achieved
that very unique, rarefied airthat I tried to maintain that.

(01:24:35):
For me, I think the biggestthing and you touched on this T
is it did create somerelatability and I wouldn't say
that video games was all of it,but the thing that's been
beneficial in my life is theability to relate to everybody.

(01:24:58):
There's something that happenedin my childhood, whether it was
where I grew up, playingbasketball from a sports
perspective, the video games andlike you talked about it, todd,
where you're at college, andjust your ability to connect to
people, right.
So when you talked about it,todd, where you're at college,
and just your ability to connectto people, right.
So when you base a connectionwhy long distance relationships
are so hard?
Because you run out of stuff totalk about, right, because you
don't have that daily connection.

(01:25:19):
But when you figure outdifferent ways to connect to
different types of people videogames was definitely one of
those there's a and you canrelate to people and you can
have a conversation with someonethat maybe currently you know,
uh, games, all the time we havepeople that we work with, that
that loved a game, and we canhave conversations and I know, I

(01:25:40):
, I, I know what they're talkingabout.
So I think there is a benefit.
Um, you guys nailed on a lot ofgood stuff there too.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Very cool.
We didn't talk about our dad'sIngress playing, but maybe we
will do that later, so I thinkthat's probably a good place to
end, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Yeah, that's good.
Anything else you want to share?
Yeah, I think so.
I would just close on.
You know, for me what can be alittle bit complicating with the
video game piece is like we'veincorporated a sliver of
spiritual uh into.

(01:26:19):
You know, probably each episode, and I think for me that's the
other thing that I kind ofstumble on when I think about
getting back into video gamesand some of the things I learned
and the worldly success andthose sorts of stories.
Like I do find myself trying tofit it in the spiritual realm
as well.
Where can that fit in that?

(01:26:44):
So we can maybe leave that oneunanswered, but I think that's
something that I am stillpondering.
Really good discussion.
Thank you guys for your insight.
It was fun to reminisce aboutthe old days.
Hopefully all of you gotsomething from that.
I don't know.
I think we all struggle withhow video games have either

(01:27:09):
impacted us Struggle is probablythe wrong word but how video
games have impacted impacted us,struggle is probably the wrong
word, but how video games haveimpacted us or impacting our
kids, how to navigate it, thethings that we worry about.
I know we got into screensthere a little bit as well, but
ultimately we are all sittinghere as functioning normal human
beings and played a shit ton ofvideo games, so appreciate you
guys coming by.

(01:27:29):
And that's a wrap for episodesix.