July 2, 2025 • 22 mins
This recap episode unpacks an interview with Joe Pistone, also known as Donnie Brasco, a former FBI agent who infiltrated the American Mafia. Pistone recounts his extensive undercover career, detailing his initial experiences in gambling houses and car theft rings before his deep cover assignment within the Bonanno and Colombo crime families. He explains the meticulous preparation, including learning about jewellery and safe-cracking, and the constant challenges of maintaining his fabricated identity while gathering intelligence. The interview highlights the perilous nature of his work, including a life-threatening confrontation and his interactions with notorious figures like Lefty Ruggiero and Sonny Black Napolitano, ultimately leading to the dismantling of major mob operations. Pistone also discusses the filming of Donnie Brasco and his ongoing efforts to support law enforcement through a gang conference.
---
We all love The Joe Rogan Experience and much prefer the real thing, but sometimes it's not possible to listen to an entire episode or you just want to recap an episode you've previously listened to. The Joe Rogan Recap uses Google's NotebookLM to create a conversational podcast that recaps episodes of JRE into a more manageable listen.
On that note, for those that would like it, here's the public access link to the Google Notebook to look at the mind map, timeline and briefing doc - https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/fd1df189-da19-4afc-a520-e1cfa7e0c67d - Please note, you must have a Google account to access.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Deep dive, and before we get going, you can now
access the full Google Notebook with a mind map, timeline, and
briefing document by clicking the link in the description.
Today, we're diving deep into just one of the most incredible
true stories I think I've ever come across in law enforcement.
It's the life of Joe Pistone, better known as Donnie Brasco.
(00:21):
We've looked at this extensive interview he gave talking about
his six years undercover in the American Mafia.
Honestly, it sounds like something straight out of
Hollywood, but it's real. It really is.
And what's so fascinating, I think, isn't just the, you know,
the sheer bravery, which is immense, It's how much it boils
down to this really sharp understanding of people, of
criminal groups and just the themental toll of living a lie like
(00:45):
that for so long. This dive today, it's going to
give you a really unique look athow one guy became this legend
in the FBI by, well, by basically becoming one of them.
Yeah, exactly. So our mission today is to
unpack the tactics, the psychology, the, I mean, the
pure nerve it must have taken tolive that double life right
inside the mafia's top levels. We want to pull out those
(01:06):
surprising facts, those moments that make you go, ha, we're
looking at not just what he did,but how he pulled it off and
what it teaches us about, you know, trust, deception,
survival. OK, let's unpack this.
So First things first, how does someone even, like, get into
this world? How did Joe Pistone, an FBI
agent, end up right in the heartof the mob?
He didn't just, you know, walk. You know, absolutely not.
(01:28):
His background was really critical here.
He started out in Naval Intelligence for three years.
So we had that sort of groundingin, let's say, clandestine work.
Then he joined the FBI because he wanted more direct lawn
placement action. But his first jobs, they weren't
mob related at all. It was bank robberies,
fugitives, gambling cases. Actually, his very first
undercover gig was infiltrating A gambling house down in
(01:50):
Jacksonville, FL. Which kind of raises the
question, right? Why him?
Why was he suited for this? And a big part of it was his
upbringing. He grew up in Paterson, NJ, in
an all Italian neighborhood. He knew wise guys.
He went to school with their kids.
He was, as he put it, street smart.
So it wasn't intimidating for him being around those guys.
(02:11):
Not in the same way it would be for most people.
He was comfortable in that environment from way back.
So he had this kind of instinctual understanding of the
culture, of the rules, the language that you just can't
teach. And he didn't just dive straight
into the mafia assignment, either.
You mentioned he spent, what, four or five years doing other
undercover work first? Stolen art, stocks, bonds.
(02:32):
That's right. And that period was crucial.
It wasn't just about racking up experience.
It was about building the mentaltoughness, honing the craft of
deception, but in situations where maybe the stakes weren't
quite life or death every second.
Right, getting used to the pressure.
Exactly. He was learning the rhythm of
that world, how to juggle aliases, how to keep his head
straight. So when the mob opportunity came
(02:54):
up, he wasn't just trained, he was seasoned.
He was ready for that cold entry.
And how did that specific opportunity come about?
It was his supervisor in New York, Guy Barra.
He suggested an undercover operatargeting these mob run truck
hijackings. This is pretty groundbreaking
because yeah, the FBI had informants, snitches inside, but
(03:16):
no agent had ever really infiltrated the Mafia like this
from the outside, ground up. It was totally new territory.
Wow. OK so that leads to the big
question. How do you actually get in?
How do you infiltrate the Super secretive group when nobody
knows you? That cold entry thing sounds
almost impossible. What was the first step?
The persona choosing who Donnie Braska was going to be, that was
(03:37):
absolutely key. He decided on being a jewel
thief A. Jewel thief.
Why that? Well, it was smart, right?
It was attractive to the mob. They love valuable, untraceable
stuff like diamonds. But, and this was critical for
the FBI, it was nonviolent. He couldn't be posing as a
hitman or something. Yeah, government rules.
Exactly. So Jewel thief hit that sweet
spot. Valuable to them, but within his
(03:59):
operational limits. It let him off for something
without having to break bones. And he really committed to it.
He don't just say he was a thief.
Oh no, he went deep. He actually went to diamond
school for a couple of months. Learn how to identify gems, use
the loop, the whole. Thing.
Seriously, Diamond School. Yep, and he got training from
the FBI tech guys too. Picking locks, cracking safes,
(04:20):
disabling alarms. He had to be convincing, not
just talking the talk. The level of prep was
incredible. And this whole cold entree
strategy, it's like building a ghost, isn't it?
No informant introduction, whichwas unheard of.
Totally. He built Donnie Brasco from
scratch, rented an apartment, bought a car, got utilities,
phones, all in the name. Donnie Brasco even had a Social
(04:41):
Security number and the back store orphan moved around
between Florida and California. And get this, they found a real
orphanage that had burned down, records destroyed.
Yeah. So no parents, no siblings, no
ex-wife they could suddenly demand to see.
It was a clean slate, impossibleto verify.
Man, the detail. It just shows the insane level
(05:01):
of planning for deep cover. And it wasn't a Monday to Friday
job, it was 2047. If he wasn't around on weekends,
that's suspicious, right? Where's Donnie?
Exactly which you know, puts unbelievable pressure on your
actual life. His real family had to live
clear across the country. Totally separate the
compartmentalization. It's hard to even wrap your head
(05:22):
around. OK, so he's got the identity,
the skills, the back story. He's in New York.
How does he actually make contact?
How does he get noticed by the right people without an
introduction? Right.
You can't just walk into a knownmob bar and say hey, I'm Donnie,
I steal jewels. Definitely not.
His strategy was patience. He started hanging out in
specific bars, restaurants in Little Italy and other areas
(05:43):
known to be frequented by Fences.
Wise guys, guys involved in that.
Like he was just there getting his face seen showing up alone.
Which might seem weird, but the orphan back story helped explain
that right? He wasn't from anywhere they
knew. Exactly.
It made his solitary presence less of a red flag.
And another thing he barely drank.
(06:03):
In bars all the time. How did that work?
It's incredible discipline, he said.
His absolute limit was half a beer or maybe one glass of red
wine. Nevermore.
Wow, did that make him stand outlike negatively?
You'd think so, but apparently not.
He wasn't a total non drinker, which might have been odd.
He'd have a drink, but never enough to get loose, never
(06:24):
enough to impair his judgement or spill secrets he didn't have
in that world. Maybe someone who's always
composed, always sharp, especially if they're handling
valuable stuff. Maybe that scene is reliable.
Interesting take. And he really understood their
their protocol. Like the first real contact was
when a girlfriend of some wise guy just said hello to him.
(06:45):
Pistone immediately called the bartender over, said I want to
go on record to mob term. It basically means, hey, just so
everyone knows, she initiated contact with me.
He didn't want to look like he was hitting on a connected guy's
girl or looking for trouble. Covering himself immediately.
Smart. Very smart, showed me the rules.
Eventually he met this guy knownonly as CC.
Didn't give a last name, just Charlie.
(07:07):
Big sign he was a street guy. Right.
So how did that progress? Charlie eventually invited him
to an all night card game, a gambling session.
Donnie went played, didn't make waves.
After a few weeks of this just being around, he decided it was
time. Time to set the hook as he put.
It OK how? He showed up one night with a
small packet of diamonds, showedthem to Charlie, said something
(07:30):
like, what's the street price onthese?
Meaning, what's a price low enough that Charlie could flip
them and make easy money? So he's not just gambling
anymore, he's showing his profession.
Precisely. It was a calculated move.
It showed 1 he had access to stolen gems, proving he's a real
thief. Two, he was willing to cut
Charlie in, making him a potentially profitable
(07:52):
connection. And three, it showed he
understood their world is about making money, sharing the score.
That's the end. That was the end.
It proved he wasn't just some guy hanging around.
He was potentially valuable. After that, Charlie introduced
him as Don the jeweler to a guy named Jilly who was connected to
the Colombo family. And then he started doing stuff
(08:14):
with them, small things, unloading trucks, just proving
he was willing to work and wasn't afraid.
Building trust step by step. So he's in with the Columbos.
Yeah, but the deeper you go, theriskier it gets, right?
And things got really hairy here.
Extremely hairy. He met two other guys, Frankie
and Patty, and Patty was a made guy.
Officially inducted. Big deal.
They were looking for scores forFest so they can pull off.
(08:36):
And Donnie, he turned them down.He turned down to potential jobs
they brought him. One had an alarm system he
claimed he couldn't beat. Another involved a safe he said
would be too noisy to crack. Plausible reasons, but.
But you don't just say no to a made guys plans.
Exactly. It pissed them off.
As Pistone put it, it was seen as disrespectful, maybe
questioning their judgement. So what happened?
(08:58):
It led to this incredibly tense moment, a sit down with Patty.
Patty pulls out a .38, leaves itright there on the table between
them, tells Donnie. Basically, you better start
producing. Prove you're for real or you're
going to end up rolled in a rug.Jesus.
What did Donnie do? What was he thinking?
His internal thought, which he shared later, was just
chillingly dark humor. Hope it's fucking Persian.
(09:21):
Wow, just survival mode thinking.
Absolutely a defense mechanism, but he couldn't just sit there
and take it either. And he couldn't directly harm
Patty, the made guy. That's suicide.
So to handle the disrespect, to save face, he had to react.
He ended up hitting Frankie, theassociate, not Patty.
He cocked him as they say. Why Frankie?
(09:42):
Because it showed he wasn't scared, that he wouldn't
tolerate being threatened or disrespected like that.
If he hadn't reacted, the question among them would be why
isn't Donnie pissed off? It preserves his own standing
without crossing the ultimate line of hitting a made man
controlled aggression. Man walking a tightrope.
So after that, sticking with theColumbos was probably not an
option. No, it was too hot.
(10:03):
He needed to shift and that's how he ended up connecting with
the Benando family to a guy called Tony Mirror.
And Tony Mirror was. Described as a complete psycho
case. A big, intimidating, violent
guy. Not exactly a friendly welcome
wagon. Great out of the frying pan.
Pretty much, but again, it showsDonnie's ability to navigate
(10:24):
these incredibly dangerous shifts.
He understood the rules even with someone like Mirror.
How did he handle mirror? There's this one time Mirror
just completely chewed him out in public in front of other
guys. Major disrespect.
Donnie didn't react then, but the next day he pulled Mirror
aside privately, told him straight up, don't ever talk to
me like that in front of people again because I'll fucking stab
(10:44):
you. You won't even know it's coming.
He said that to Tony Mirror he did.
And weirdly, paradoxically, Mirror respected that it showed
balls. It sure he wasn't afraid that he
back himself up in that world. Apparently, even with a psycho,
that kind of directness, showingyou have limits earns respect.
It's about demonstrating you're not weak.
But also not a direct threat to their power.
(11:06):
Unbelievable. OK, so now he's in with the
bananas, working under this Tonymirror, at least initially.
Right. And then he starts working more
closely with another key figure,Lefty Ruggiero, who is also a
made guy. Lefty becomes a really important
connection for him. What happened with Tony Mirror?
Rira eventually violated his parole or something, got sent
(11:26):
back to prison, back to the can,which actually worked out for
Donnie because it meant he couldwork exclusively with Lefty.
And Lefty really took him under his wing.
Yeah, it seems like a real mentorship developed, or at
least as close as you get in that world.
And Lefty did something huge. He took Donnie to meet his
captain, a guy named Mike Sabella, and Lefty went on
(11:47):
record with Sabella formally stating that Donnie was with
him. OK.
What did that mean exactly, Going on record?
Why was that so important? It was critical.
It meant Lefty was officially vouching for Donnie within the
family hierarchy. It put Donnie under the captains
and therefore the family's protection.
Other mobsters couldn't just mess with him or try to muscle
(12:07):
in on his action. He was now officially
affiliated. So he's legitimized within their
structure. Exactly.
It cemented his position and gave him much deeper access.
Which makes you wonder, how is he managing all this
information? How is he reporting back to the
FBI without getting caught? Yeah, good question.
Was he wired all the time meeting handlers?
(12:28):
Not really. Regular meetings or visible
surveillance were way too risky.Get a contact agent somebody
could reach by phone. But mostly he had to keep
everything in his head. Names, dates, connections,
plots. All in his head for six years.
Incredible, isn't it? He'd then find a secure phone
and basically regurgitate all the Intel to his contact who'd
(12:49):
write it all down. He really wore a wire because
they were bulky there and constantly being patted down.
Sometimes, he said, he'd buy hisown mini cassette recorders to
secretly tape really crucial conversations like planning
heads. Minimal tech, maximum mental
effort. Just amazing.
Recall. OK, so he's deep inside the
bananas now, and then he gets involved in these operations
(13:09):
that actually link different mafia families together.
That sounds complex. Yeah, two major examples.
It shows just how trusted he'd become, that he could operate at
that level, almost like a mob diplomat or broker.
OK. What was the first one?
Milwaukee. Right.
The FBI had this undercover vending machine business they
were trying to run in Milwaukee,but it was going nowhere because
(13:30):
the local crime family there, the Bellis Trieras, run by a
boss named Boosterie, controlledeverything like that.
So Donnie gets involved. Yeah, he connects with the FBI
agent running the Milwaukee app,a guy nicknamed Ty Cobb, who was
using the alias Tony. Donnie cooks up this whole story
for the Bananos, telling them Tony, the long time Banano
associate, been around for 10 years.
(13:50):
He just made that up. Completely all to convince the
Banano leadership, including their conciliere Bobby Badhart,
to reach out to the Chicago Outfit, who then set up a
meeting to sit down between the Bananos and the Milwaukee
Bellistrieri family. So he's bridging New York,
Chicago and Milwaukee mobsters. Pretty much led to this big
(14:10):
dinner meeting with Boss Bastiriand his two sons who are
actually lawyers, and eventuallythe Ballastrieres agreed to
partner 5050 on this vending machine business with Tony who
they think is a banana guy. Wow, did it work.
Ultimately, no. The operation fell apart because
somehow the Ballastrieres found out that Tony was actually a
former cop. Huge breach, massive risk for
(14:34):
Donnie because he vouched for Tony and Lefty had no idea Tony
wasn't legit. What?
Happened to Donnie, he must havebeen in deep trouble.
You'd think death sentence right?
But his punishment was he got banned from the Banano Christmas
party that year. That's it.
Banned from the party. That's it.
Which is just a stock. It shows how much they trusted
Donnie. They blame Tony for being
compromised, not Donnie for bringing him in.
They value Donnie so much, his perceived earning power and
(14:57):
loyalty, that they let this massive screw up slide.
Unbelievable. OK.
What was the second big operation Tampa?
Yeah, Tampa. This is after the Banano boss
Carmine Galante got famously whack blown away with shotguns
at a restaurant major mob event.After that, Donnie and Lefty got
shifted under a new captain Sunny Black.
(15:18):
Meanwhile, the FBI had another undercover operation going in
Florida, running a nightclub in Tampa.
But they were struggling to get close to the top guy there, the
Florida boss, Santo Traficante. So Donnie to the rescue again.
Pretty much. He arranges this seemingly
accidental bump meeting down in Miami.
He runs into Chico, who's reallyFBI agent Steve Sulmery, and
(15:41):
they pretend they know each other from way back from old
theft jobs. Setting up another connection.
Exactly. And again, this leads to Donnie
brokering a deal marrying the Bonanno family with
Trafficante's Florida crew. They set up this big scam, the
casino nights, supposedly for the Veterans of Foreign Wars A.
Charity front. Totally, except it was all
rigged, marked cards, fixed dice, and they even had a payoff
(16:02):
going to local Sheriff's Department to look the other
way. Classic mob stuff.
How'd that end? Well, ironically, they didn't
get busted for the huge illegal gambling ring.
They got busted because they hadthis antique one armed bandit
slot machine in the corner. Just for show really.
And some deputy sheriff played it and actually won.
Nope. That single slot machine win
(16:24):
counted as illegal gambling and that's what brought the whole
thing down. And sadly the Sheriff's
Department contact who is takingthe payouts.
He got a subpoena later and ended up committing suicide.
Just a tragic, unexpected outcome.
Man, the ripple effects. But again, it shows Donnie
operating at this really high strategic level, connecting
these powerful families. Yeah, absolutely.
(16:46):
He wasn't just a soldier, he wasbecoming a player, facilitating
major criminal enterprises. The intelligence he gathered
from that position was invaluable.
So the operations are getting bigger, the Sedeks are higher,
internal mob wars are happening.Where does it go from there?
He's getting incredibly deep. So deep that he was actually
proposed for membership in the Ponono family.
He was scheduled to be officially made inducted that
(17:08):
December. Wow to become a fully sworn
member of the mafia. Yeah, Can you imagine an FBI
agent on the verge of becoming amade man?
And it got even crazier. He was actually given a contract
in order to kill another mobster, the capo named Bruno.
They ordered him to kill someone.
How did he handle that? Bruno actually didn't show up
(17:29):
for the planned meeting where the hit was supposed to happen,
so Donnie didn't have to confront that immediate choice.
But his mindset was clear. He told the FBI his job was to
arrest people, not kill them. If he had found Bruno, his plan
was to make the call, have the FBI swoop in and grab Bruno, and
then report back that the job was done.
He wouldn't die for a gangster and he wouldn't kill for one.
(17:52):
That constant ethical tightrope.Every single day.
And he made some interesting observations about that life.
Like most mob guys didn't carry guns all the time, only when
they were specifically going to do some work which meant a hit.
Right. Not like the movies where
everyone's armed 24/7. Exactly.
And he stressed how important itwas not to change his own
personality. He didn't do drugs.
(18:13):
He didn't try to act tough. He just was Donnie Brasco.
And he backed up what he said. That consistency, that
authenticity, paradoxically, waskey to his survival and
credibility. He wasn't playing a caricature.
He was living a meticulously crafted identity that felt real.
Because in many ways, he just was that guy in those moments.
(18:33):
So he's about to be made. He's navigating murder
contracts. How did it finally end?
The FBI pulled the plug. The operation was shut down on
July 27th, just a few months before his planned induction.
After six intense years undercover, it was over.
Then came the next phase, seven years of testifying.
Six years undercover, 7 years testifying.
(18:53):
Incredible. Did he ever go undercover again
after that? He actually did, yeah, even
after the mafia case, he did some work for Scotland Yard over
in the UK. Really.
Doing what? Infiltrating Chinese triads who
are involved in sophisticated credit card manufacturing scams.
And he pulled a classic Donnie Brasco move there, too.
What was that? During a meeting, he
deliberately, publicly insulted the number two guy in the triad
(19:15):
group, just called him out on something.
His British handlers were apparently terrified.
I thought he'd get them all killed, but it worked.
Just like with Tony Mirror, thatdisplay of not being
intimidated, of having nerve actually earned the triad guys
respect. It seems some principles of
navigating criminal hierarchies are pretty universal.
That's fascinating. So looking back, what's the
(19:35):
ultimate significance of his work?
Why is the Donnie Brasco story so legendary?
I think it's because he went deeper than anyone ever had
before, or maybe since. And crucially, he did it cold.
No informant paved the way. He built the trust, the access,
the entire infiltration from Absolute 0, just using his wits,
his background, and that incredible persona.
(19:57):
It fundamentally changed how lawenforcement thought about
tackling organized crime. But the danger didn't end when
the operation did right? The mafia put a contract out on
him. Yeah.
A big one, half $1,000,000 on his head, put out by the Mafia
Commission. He says that worry never fully
disappears, even decades later. There's always the chance that
some cowboy, some young guy trying to make a name for
(20:19):
himself, might try to collect. He has to live with that shadow.
Just unimaginable. And has the mob itself changed
since his time? Could an operation like his even
happened today? It's.
Drastically different. He talks about the younger
generation than being more like the ME generation, more into
drugs, less discipline than the old timers.
But the biggest change is technology.
(20:39):
Cell phones, Internet. Exactly.
Cell phones, constant surveillance, the Internet.
It's made the kind of secrecy the mob relied on almost
impossible. They can't operate in the
shadows the way they used to. An undercover operation like
Pistones lasting 6 years. With that level of deep
immersion it's. Probably also impossible today.
The world is just too connected to watched.
(21:00):
So when you boil it all down, what does this incredible story
mean for us listening today? Well, Joe Pistone's story, it's
just a master class, isn't it? In strategy, in psychology, in
sheer resilience. It really highlights the intense
preparation needed for that kindof high stakes work and that
constant, delicate dance of building trust in incredibly
(21:20):
dangerous places. It's a deep look at human
behavior under extreme pressure.Absolutely.
And his point about knowing yourenemy, referencing senses, Art
of War, it really resonates beyond crime fighting, doesn't
it makes you think, you know, inour own lives, our own
challenges, do we really take the time to understand the
obstacles, the enemies, whether they're situations or
competitors or even our own limitations?
(21:42):
Do we study them with that same kind of rigor Pistone used?
That's a really good point. His journey kind of shows that
even with all our tech, basic human nature, it stays pretty
consistent. The tools change, but the core
principles, trust, observation, calculated risk, understanding
motivations, those seem timeless.
It's a reminder that sometimes really understanding something
(22:04):
complex means getting incrediblyclose to it.
Well said. And if you want to follow Joe
Pistone today, he's actually pretty active.
You can find him on Instagram. His handle is at Rio.
Donnie Brasco. He's also on Cameo.
Just search for Joe Pistone. And he's still writing, too.
Yeah, he's working on another book, this one focused
secifically on the Bonanno family, and he's very involved
(22:25):
with the Southern California Gang Conference.
Apparently, he donates all the money he makes from his
merchandise and book sales to help the families of police
officers who've been killed in the line of duty.
Wow, still giving back. That's great to hear.
Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive.
We really hope this look into the true story of Donnie Brasco
give you some some things to think about.
(22:45):
Until next time, keep learning, keep questioning, and stay well
informed.
Welcome to the Deep dive, and before we get going, you can now
access the full Google Notebook with a mind map, timeline, and
briefing document by clicking the link in the description.
Today, we're diving deep into just one of the most incredible
true stories I think I've ever come across in law enforcement.
It's the life of Joe Pistone, better known as Donnie Brasco.
(00:21):
We've looked at this extensive interview he gave talking about
his six years undercover in the American Mafia.
Honestly, it sounds like something straight out of
Hollywood, but it's real. It really is.
And what's so fascinating, I think, isn't just the, you know,
the sheer bravery, which is immense, It's how much it boils
down to this really sharp understanding of people, of
criminal groups and just the themental toll of living a lie like
(00:45):
that for so long. This dive today, it's going to
give you a really unique look athow one guy became this legend
in the FBI by, well, by basically becoming one of them.
Yeah, exactly. So our mission today is to
unpack the tactics, the psychology, the, I mean, the
pure nerve it must have taken tolive that double life right
inside the mafia's top levels. We want to pull out those
(01:06):
surprising facts, those moments that make you go, ha, we're
looking at not just what he did,but how he pulled it off and
what it teaches us about, you know, trust, deception,
survival. OK, let's unpack this.
So First things first, how does someone even, like, get into
this world? How did Joe Pistone, an FBI
agent, end up right in the heartof the mob?
He didn't just, you know, walk. You know, absolutely not.
(01:28):
His background was really critical here.
He started out in Naval Intelligence for three years.
So we had that sort of groundingin, let's say, clandestine work.
Then he joined the FBI because he wanted more direct lawn
placement action. But his first jobs, they weren't
mob related at all. It was bank robberies,
fugitives, gambling cases. Actually, his very first
undercover gig was infiltrating A gambling house down in
(01:50):
Jacksonville, FL. Which kind of raises the
question, right? Why him?
Why was he suited for this? And a big part of it was his
upbringing. He grew up in Paterson, NJ, in
an all Italian neighborhood. He knew wise guys.
He went to school with their kids.
He was, as he put it, street smart.
So it wasn't intimidating for him being around those guys.
(02:11):
Not in the same way it would be for most people.
He was comfortable in that environment from way back.
So he had this kind of instinctual understanding of the
culture, of the rules, the language that you just can't
teach. And he didn't just dive straight
into the mafia assignment, either.
You mentioned he spent, what, four or five years doing other
undercover work first? Stolen art, stocks, bonds.
(02:32):
That's right. And that period was crucial.
It wasn't just about racking up experience.
It was about building the mentaltoughness, honing the craft of
deception, but in situations where maybe the stakes weren't
quite life or death every second.
Right, getting used to the pressure.
Exactly. He was learning the rhythm of
that world, how to juggle aliases, how to keep his head
straight. So when the mob opportunity came
(02:54):
up, he wasn't just trained, he was seasoned.
He was ready for that cold entry.
And how did that specific opportunity come about?
It was his supervisor in New York, Guy Barra.
He suggested an undercover operatargeting these mob run truck
hijackings. This is pretty groundbreaking
because yeah, the FBI had informants, snitches inside, but
(03:16):
no agent had ever really infiltrated the Mafia like this
from the outside, ground up. It was totally new territory.
Wow. OK so that leads to the big
question. How do you actually get in?
How do you infiltrate the Super secretive group when nobody
knows you? That cold entry thing sounds
almost impossible. What was the first step?
The persona choosing who Donnie Braska was going to be, that was
(03:37):
absolutely key. He decided on being a jewel
thief A. Jewel thief.
Why that? Well, it was smart, right?
It was attractive to the mob. They love valuable, untraceable
stuff like diamonds. But, and this was critical for
the FBI, it was nonviolent. He couldn't be posing as a
hitman or something. Yeah, government rules.
Exactly. So Jewel thief hit that sweet
spot. Valuable to them, but within his
(03:59):
operational limits. It let him off for something
without having to break bones. And he really committed to it.
He don't just say he was a thief.
Oh no, he went deep. He actually went to diamond
school for a couple of months. Learn how to identify gems, use
the loop, the whole. Thing.
Seriously, Diamond School. Yep, and he got training from
the FBI tech guys too. Picking locks, cracking safes,
(04:20):
disabling alarms. He had to be convincing, not
just talking the talk. The level of prep was
incredible. And this whole cold entree
strategy, it's like building a ghost, isn't it?
No informant introduction, whichwas unheard of.
Totally. He built Donnie Brasco from
scratch, rented an apartment, bought a car, got utilities,
phones, all in the name. Donnie Brasco even had a Social
(04:41):
Security number and the back store orphan moved around
between Florida and California. And get this, they found a real
orphanage that had burned down, records destroyed.
Yeah. So no parents, no siblings, no
ex-wife they could suddenly demand to see.
It was a clean slate, impossibleto verify.
Man, the detail. It just shows the insane level
(05:01):
of planning for deep cover. And it wasn't a Monday to Friday
job, it was 2047. If he wasn't around on weekends,
that's suspicious, right? Where's Donnie?
Exactly which you know, puts unbelievable pressure on your
actual life. His real family had to live
clear across the country. Totally separate the
compartmentalization. It's hard to even wrap your head
(05:22):
around. OK, so he's got the identity,
the skills, the back story. He's in New York.
How does he actually make contact?
How does he get noticed by the right people without an
introduction? Right.
You can't just walk into a knownmob bar and say hey, I'm Donnie,
I steal jewels. Definitely not.
His strategy was patience. He started hanging out in
specific bars, restaurants in Little Italy and other areas
(05:43):
known to be frequented by Fences.
Wise guys, guys involved in that.
Like he was just there getting his face seen showing up alone.
Which might seem weird, but the orphan back story helped explain
that right? He wasn't from anywhere they
knew. Exactly.
It made his solitary presence less of a red flag.
And another thing he barely drank.
(06:03):
In bars all the time. How did that work?
It's incredible discipline, he said.
His absolute limit was half a beer or maybe one glass of red
wine. Nevermore.
Wow, did that make him stand outlike negatively?
You'd think so, but apparently not.
He wasn't a total non drinker, which might have been odd.
He'd have a drink, but never enough to get loose, never
(06:24):
enough to impair his judgement or spill secrets he didn't have
in that world. Maybe someone who's always
composed, always sharp, especially if they're handling
valuable stuff. Maybe that scene is reliable.
Interesting take. And he really understood their
their protocol. Like the first real contact was
when a girlfriend of some wise guy just said hello to him.
(06:45):
Pistone immediately called the bartender over, said I want to
go on record to mob term. It basically means, hey, just so
everyone knows, she initiated contact with me.
He didn't want to look like he was hitting on a connected guy's
girl or looking for trouble. Covering himself immediately.
Smart. Very smart, showed me the rules.
Eventually he met this guy knownonly as CC.
Didn't give a last name, just Charlie.
(07:07):
Big sign he was a street guy. Right.
So how did that progress? Charlie eventually invited him
to an all night card game, a gambling session.
Donnie went played, didn't make waves.
After a few weeks of this just being around, he decided it was
time. Time to set the hook as he put.
It OK how? He showed up one night with a
small packet of diamonds, showedthem to Charlie, said something
(07:30):
like, what's the street price onthese?
Meaning, what's a price low enough that Charlie could flip
them and make easy money? So he's not just gambling
anymore, he's showing his profession.
Precisely. It was a calculated move.
It showed 1 he had access to stolen gems, proving he's a real
thief. Two, he was willing to cut
Charlie in, making him a potentially profitable
(07:52):
connection. And three, it showed he
understood their world is about making money, sharing the score.
That's the end. That was the end.
It proved he wasn't just some guy hanging around.
He was potentially valuable. After that, Charlie introduced
him as Don the jeweler to a guy named Jilly who was connected to
the Colombo family. And then he started doing stuff
(08:14):
with them, small things, unloading trucks, just proving
he was willing to work and wasn't afraid.
Building trust step by step. So he's in with the Columbos.
Yeah, but the deeper you go, theriskier it gets, right?
And things got really hairy here.
Extremely hairy. He met two other guys, Frankie
and Patty, and Patty was a made guy.
Officially inducted. Big deal.
They were looking for scores forFest so they can pull off.
(08:36):
And Donnie, he turned them down.He turned down to potential jobs
they brought him. One had an alarm system he
claimed he couldn't beat. Another involved a safe he said
would be too noisy to crack. Plausible reasons, but.
But you don't just say no to a made guys plans.
Exactly. It pissed them off.
As Pistone put it, it was seen as disrespectful, maybe
questioning their judgement. So what happened?
(08:58):
It led to this incredibly tense moment, a sit down with Patty.
Patty pulls out a .38, leaves itright there on the table between
them, tells Donnie. Basically, you better start
producing. Prove you're for real or you're
going to end up rolled in a rug.Jesus.
What did Donnie do? What was he thinking?
His internal thought, which he shared later, was just
chillingly dark humor. Hope it's fucking Persian.
(09:21):
Wow, just survival mode thinking.
Absolutely a defense mechanism, but he couldn't just sit there
and take it either. And he couldn't directly harm
Patty, the made guy. That's suicide.
So to handle the disrespect, to save face, he had to react.
He ended up hitting Frankie, theassociate, not Patty.
He cocked him as they say. Why Frankie?
(09:42):
Because it showed he wasn't scared, that he wouldn't
tolerate being threatened or disrespected like that.
If he hadn't reacted, the question among them would be why
isn't Donnie pissed off? It preserves his own standing
without crossing the ultimate line of hitting a made man
controlled aggression. Man walking a tightrope.
So after that, sticking with theColumbos was probably not an
option. No, it was too hot.
(10:03):
He needed to shift and that's how he ended up connecting with
the Benando family to a guy called Tony Mirror.
And Tony Mirror was. Described as a complete psycho
case. A big, intimidating, violent
guy. Not exactly a friendly welcome
wagon. Great out of the frying pan.
Pretty much, but again, it showsDonnie's ability to navigate
(10:24):
these incredibly dangerous shifts.
He understood the rules even with someone like Mirror.
How did he handle mirror? There's this one time Mirror
just completely chewed him out in public in front of other
guys. Major disrespect.
Donnie didn't react then, but the next day he pulled Mirror
aside privately, told him straight up, don't ever talk to
me like that in front of people again because I'll fucking stab
(10:44):
you. You won't even know it's coming.
He said that to Tony Mirror he did.
And weirdly, paradoxically, Mirror respected that it showed
balls. It sure he wasn't afraid that he
back himself up in that world. Apparently, even with a psycho,
that kind of directness, showingyou have limits earns respect.
It's about demonstrating you're not weak.
But also not a direct threat to their power.
(11:06):
Unbelievable. OK, so now he's in with the
bananas, working under this Tonymirror, at least initially.
Right. And then he starts working more
closely with another key figure,Lefty Ruggiero, who is also a
made guy. Lefty becomes a really important
connection for him. What happened with Tony Mirror?
Rira eventually violated his parole or something, got sent
(11:26):
back to prison, back to the can,which actually worked out for
Donnie because it meant he couldwork exclusively with Lefty.
And Lefty really took him under his wing.
Yeah, it seems like a real mentorship developed, or at
least as close as you get in that world.
And Lefty did something huge. He took Donnie to meet his
captain, a guy named Mike Sabella, and Lefty went on
(11:47):
record with Sabella formally stating that Donnie was with
him. OK.
What did that mean exactly, Going on record?
Why was that so important? It was critical.
It meant Lefty was officially vouching for Donnie within the
family hierarchy. It put Donnie under the captains
and therefore the family's protection.
Other mobsters couldn't just mess with him or try to muscle
(12:07):
in on his action. He was now officially
affiliated. So he's legitimized within their
structure. Exactly.
It cemented his position and gave him much deeper access.
Which makes you wonder, how is he managing all this
information? How is he reporting back to the
FBI without getting caught? Yeah, good question.
Was he wired all the time meeting handlers?
(12:28):
Not really. Regular meetings or visible
surveillance were way too risky.Get a contact agent somebody
could reach by phone. But mostly he had to keep
everything in his head. Names, dates, connections,
plots. All in his head for six years.
Incredible, isn't it? He'd then find a secure phone
and basically regurgitate all the Intel to his contact who'd
(12:49):
write it all down. He really wore a wire because
they were bulky there and constantly being patted down.
Sometimes, he said, he'd buy hisown mini cassette recorders to
secretly tape really crucial conversations like planning
heads. Minimal tech, maximum mental
effort. Just amazing.
Recall. OK, so he's deep inside the
bananas now, and then he gets involved in these operations
(13:09):
that actually link different mafia families together.
That sounds complex. Yeah, two major examples.
It shows just how trusted he'd become, that he could operate at
that level, almost like a mob diplomat or broker.
OK. What was the first one?
Milwaukee. Right.
The FBI had this undercover vending machine business they
were trying to run in Milwaukee,but it was going nowhere because
(13:30):
the local crime family there, the Bellis Trieras, run by a
boss named Boosterie, controlledeverything like that.
So Donnie gets involved. Yeah, he connects with the FBI
agent running the Milwaukee app,a guy nicknamed Ty Cobb, who was
using the alias Tony. Donnie cooks up this whole story
for the Bananos, telling them Tony, the long time Banano
associate, been around for 10 years.
(13:50):
He just made that up. Completely all to convince the
Banano leadership, including their conciliere Bobby Badhart,
to reach out to the Chicago Outfit, who then set up a
meeting to sit down between the Bananos and the Milwaukee
Bellistrieri family. So he's bridging New York,
Chicago and Milwaukee mobsters. Pretty much led to this big
(14:10):
dinner meeting with Boss Bastiriand his two sons who are
actually lawyers, and eventuallythe Ballastrieres agreed to
partner 5050 on this vending machine business with Tony who
they think is a banana guy. Wow, did it work.
Ultimately, no. The operation fell apart because
somehow the Ballastrieres found out that Tony was actually a
former cop. Huge breach, massive risk for
(14:34):
Donnie because he vouched for Tony and Lefty had no idea Tony
wasn't legit. What?
Happened to Donnie, he must havebeen in deep trouble.
You'd think death sentence right?
But his punishment was he got banned from the Banano Christmas
party that year. That's it.
Banned from the party. That's it.
Which is just a stock. It shows how much they trusted
Donnie. They blame Tony for being
compromised, not Donnie for bringing him in.
They value Donnie so much, his perceived earning power and
(14:57):
loyalty, that they let this massive screw up slide.
Unbelievable. OK.
What was the second big operation Tampa?
Yeah, Tampa. This is after the Banano boss
Carmine Galante got famously whack blown away with shotguns
at a restaurant major mob event.After that, Donnie and Lefty got
shifted under a new captain Sunny Black.
(15:18):
Meanwhile, the FBI had another undercover operation going in
Florida, running a nightclub in Tampa.
But they were struggling to get close to the top guy there, the
Florida boss, Santo Traficante. So Donnie to the rescue again.
Pretty much. He arranges this seemingly
accidental bump meeting down in Miami.
He runs into Chico, who's reallyFBI agent Steve Sulmery, and
(15:41):
they pretend they know each other from way back from old
theft jobs. Setting up another connection.
Exactly. And again, this leads to Donnie
brokering a deal marrying the Bonanno family with
Trafficante's Florida crew. They set up this big scam, the
casino nights, supposedly for the Veterans of Foreign Wars A.
Charity front. Totally, except it was all
rigged, marked cards, fixed dice, and they even had a payoff
(16:02):
going to local Sheriff's Department to look the other
way. Classic mob stuff.
How'd that end? Well, ironically, they didn't
get busted for the huge illegal gambling ring.
They got busted because they hadthis antique one armed bandit
slot machine in the corner. Just for show really.
And some deputy sheriff played it and actually won.
Nope. That single slot machine win
(16:24):
counted as illegal gambling and that's what brought the whole
thing down. And sadly the Sheriff's
Department contact who is takingthe payouts.
He got a subpoena later and ended up committing suicide.
Just a tragic, unexpected outcome.
Man, the ripple effects. But again, it shows Donnie
operating at this really high strategic level, connecting
these powerful families. Yeah, absolutely.
(16:46):
He wasn't just a soldier, he wasbecoming a player, facilitating
major criminal enterprises. The intelligence he gathered
from that position was invaluable.
So the operations are getting bigger, the Sedeks are higher,
internal mob wars are happening.Where does it go from there?
He's getting incredibly deep. So deep that he was actually
proposed for membership in the Ponono family.
He was scheduled to be officially made inducted that
(17:08):
December. Wow to become a fully sworn
member of the mafia. Yeah, Can you imagine an FBI
agent on the verge of becoming amade man?
And it got even crazier. He was actually given a contract
in order to kill another mobster, the capo named Bruno.
They ordered him to kill someone.
How did he handle that? Bruno actually didn't show up
(17:29):
for the planned meeting where the hit was supposed to happen,
so Donnie didn't have to confront that immediate choice.
But his mindset was clear. He told the FBI his job was to
arrest people, not kill them. If he had found Bruno, his plan
was to make the call, have the FBI swoop in and grab Bruno, and
then report back that the job was done.
He wouldn't die for a gangster and he wouldn't kill for one.
(17:52):
That constant ethical tightrope.Every single day.
And he made some interesting observations about that life.
Like most mob guys didn't carry guns all the time, only when
they were specifically going to do some work which meant a hit.
Right. Not like the movies where
everyone's armed 24/7. Exactly.
And he stressed how important itwas not to change his own
personality. He didn't do drugs.
(18:13):
He didn't try to act tough. He just was Donnie Brasco.
And he backed up what he said. That consistency, that
authenticity, paradoxically, waskey to his survival and
credibility. He wasn't playing a caricature.
He was living a meticulously crafted identity that felt real.
Because in many ways, he just was that guy in those moments.
(18:33):
So he's about to be made. He's navigating murder
contracts. How did it finally end?
The FBI pulled the plug. The operation was shut down on
July 27th, just a few months before his planned induction.
After six intense years undercover, it was over.
Then came the next phase, seven years of testifying.
Six years undercover, 7 years testifying.
(18:53):
Incredible. Did he ever go undercover again
after that? He actually did, yeah, even
after the mafia case, he did some work for Scotland Yard over
in the UK. Really.
Doing what? Infiltrating Chinese triads who
are involved in sophisticated credit card manufacturing scams.
And he pulled a classic Donnie Brasco move there, too.
What was that? During a meeting, he
deliberately, publicly insulted the number two guy in the triad
(19:15):
group, just called him out on something.
His British handlers were apparently terrified.
I thought he'd get them all killed, but it worked.
Just like with Tony Mirror, thatdisplay of not being
intimidated, of having nerve actually earned the triad guys
respect. It seems some principles of
navigating criminal hierarchies are pretty universal.
That's fascinating. So looking back, what's the
(19:35):
ultimate significance of his work?
Why is the Donnie Brasco story so legendary?
I think it's because he went deeper than anyone ever had
before, or maybe since. And crucially, he did it cold.
No informant paved the way. He built the trust, the access,
the entire infiltration from Absolute 0, just using his wits,
his background, and that incredible persona.
(19:57):
It fundamentally changed how lawenforcement thought about
tackling organized crime. But the danger didn't end when
the operation did right? The mafia put a contract out on
him. Yeah.
A big one, half $1,000,000 on his head, put out by the Mafia
Commission. He says that worry never fully
disappears, even decades later. There's always the chance that
some cowboy, some young guy trying to make a name for
(20:19):
himself, might try to collect. He has to live with that shadow.
Just unimaginable. And has the mob itself changed
since his time? Could an operation like his even
happened today? It's.
Drastically different. He talks about the younger
generation than being more like the ME generation, more into
drugs, less discipline than the old timers.
But the biggest change is technology.
(20:39):
Cell phones, Internet. Exactly.
Cell phones, constant surveillance, the Internet.
It's made the kind of secrecy the mob relied on almost
impossible. They can't operate in the
shadows the way they used to. An undercover operation like
Pistones lasting 6 years. With that level of deep
immersion it's. Probably also impossible today.
The world is just too connected to watched.
(21:00):
So when you boil it all down, what does this incredible story
mean for us listening today? Well, Joe Pistone's story, it's
just a master class, isn't it? In strategy, in psychology, in
sheer resilience. It really highlights the intense
preparation needed for that kindof high stakes work and that
constant, delicate dance of building trust in incredibly
(21:20):
dangerous places. It's a deep look at human
behavior under extreme pressure.Absolutely.
And his point about knowing yourenemy, referencing senses, Art
of War, it really resonates beyond crime fighting, doesn't
it makes you think, you know, inour own lives, our own
challenges, do we really take the time to understand the
obstacles, the enemies, whether they're situations or
competitors or even our own limitations?
(21:42):
Do we study them with that same kind of rigor Pistone used?
That's a really good point. His journey kind of shows that
even with all our tech, basic human nature, it stays pretty
consistent. The tools change, but the core
principles, trust, observation, calculated risk, understanding
motivations, those seem timeless.
It's a reminder that sometimes really understanding something
(22:04):
complex means getting incrediblyclose to it.
Well said. And if you want to follow Joe
Pistone today, he's actually pretty active.
You can find him on Instagram. His handle is at Rio.
Donnie Brasco. He's also on Cameo.
Just search for Joe Pistone. And he's still writing, too.
Yeah, he's working on another book, this one focused
secifically on the Bonanno family, and he's very involved
(22:25):
with the Southern California Gang Conference.
Apparently, he donates all the money he makes from his
merchandise and book sales to help the families of police
officers who've been killed in the line of duty.
Wow, still giving back. That's great to hear.
Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive.
We really hope this look into the true story of Donnie Brasco
give you some some things to think about.
(22:45):
Until next time, keep learning, keep questioning, and stay well
informed.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.