January 8, 2026 • 12 mins
Following our main interview with Adèle Anderson, recorded before the April 2025 Supreme Court ruling on trans rights in the UK, we sit down with Adèle for a live recording at The View From Here's launch event in London.
Adèle shares her thoughts on the negative progress we're seeing in trans rights in the UK, the impact of culture wars and the chilling effect this is having.
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review, as well as sharing the word on social media
This episode was hosted by Jonathan Chambers and James Alexander
Editing by Hannah Stewart
Music: Mystify created by AlterEgo
Visit our website, https://tvfh.co.uk
Follow us on Instagram, https://www.instagram.com/theviewfromherepodcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund.
And the idea of holding a gaypride march.
To challenge that shamefulview.
Equality.
(00:21):
And for some people inStonewall like me, equality was
kind of like what you got to asa starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
James (00:42):
We have, she's here, uh Adele Anderson, a singer,
actress, and writer, best knownas a member of the acclaimed
cabaret group, Fascinating Aida,and a passionate advocate for
trans visibility and equality.
And we're going to hear fromAdele in a bit because we are
going to do a live podcastrecording right here in a couple
of minutes.
So don't go anywhere.
Jonathan (01:02):
And don't make any noise when you have to be a bit
and very quiet.
James (01:08):
The background to this, we recorded Adele in January.
And I think what's really,really sad to think about is
just how much has gone downhillin trans rights from January to
now.
And it's actually reallyshocking.
And so, you know, it's notnecessarily going to be the most
uplifting chat we're going tohave in a few minutes' time.
And so now I think we're goingto invite Adele up onto the
(01:29):
stage.
We're going to do a littlerecording so wonderful you're
here.
I'm really excited about this,and I think it's going to be
great.
So, Adele, tell us a bit aboutyourself and introduce yourself
to our audience.
Adele (01:50):
Right.
My name's Adele Anderson.
I was born in 1952.
I began my transition in 1973,and I had I was fully surgically
completed in 1978.
And I went, I was under thecare of the infamous Dr.
John Randall at Charing CrossHospital, who always encouraged
(02:13):
us to live in stealth.
So for a long time, I didn'ttell anybody that I was trans.
It wasn't a thing that you youtried to conceal it.
And then I in 1984 I joinedFascinating Aida, the wonderful
Dilly Keene, and a series ofsopranos over the years.
And I found my my haven andI've been entertaining people
(02:34):
around the country ever sincethen.
And a lot of people know, a lotof the audience know that I'm
trans.
A lot of people didn't, andit's never made any difference.
Even when we we sang a songabout it was called Prisoner of
Gender, and uh which I actuallysang about my transition, and
there little old ladies wereoverheard saying, Why is she
(02:54):
singing that song?
I don't know what's uh and Iwas but over the last few years
I saw the way the tide wasturning, and I'd been much more
encouraged to be openly transand to talk about trans matters.
And then, as you say, we have aSupreme Court ruling this year.
I had to be on a cruise up theDalmatian coast when it
(03:17):
happened, and I remember cominginto the bar and feeling quite
sick.
And never I did it was a verysmall cruise, and I'd only met
these people recently.
They all came round and offeredme support, and that was that
was all wonderful.
And I it actually hasn'taffected me that much so far
because I've not ever beenchallenged going into a women's
(03:38):
toilet or a women's changingroom, and that I think that will
continue.
Uh, I don't know yet what wouldhappen next time I'm I'm
admitted to hospital, becauseI've spent plenty of time in
women's wards.
It could be that I'll have tohave a private room, wouldn't
that be dreadful?
Uh and we'll see what happenswhen I try and renew my passport
(04:00):
in 2027.
But what I have noticed is yes,this is a change towards uh the
attitude towards trans people.
We look back and I think ofwhen Dana International won uh
won Eurovision, when Nadia wonBig Brother, and then we had we
had trans characters in all thesoaps, and suddenly the right
(04:22):
wing uh, sorry, I'm gonna bepolitical, but the Christian
nationalists and the right wingpress have really just done a
number on us.
And most people had not beenconcerned about these matters
until they were being told thatthey should.
I have found myselfself-censoring a bit.
I did a show recently and Iknew I was going to be sharing a
(04:43):
dressing room with three youngactresses, and I felt I had to
say within the rehearsal periodthat I was trans, just in case
any of them had an objection tothat, which they didn't, of
course.
Uh then also I did a workshopfor a feminist musical last
year, and they checked myavailability to see if I could
(05:04):
do it this year, and I thought Iprobably shouldn't do this
musical this year, becausesomebody might it only takes one
person to complain.
And then uh so I didn'tactually, I mean I couldn't do
it, but I I didn't actually doit.
But I've got an absoluteexample of how dreadful things
are getting at the momentbecause my I have a very good
friend, and she swims in theHampstead Women's Pond every
(05:28):
day.
Uh come rain or shine.
And recently uh that uh it wasinsisted by the London
Corporation, I think, that theyhad to have a vote about whether
trans women could could becontinue to be admitted.
And they all said that's fine,we have got no problem with it.
Well, they didn't like thatanswer, so then they went to
another committee and they hadanother thing about that.
(05:49):
They also said it was fine, andthen a group of um turfs
stormed the AGM and basicallymanaged to get one of the one of
their uh members elected ontothe uh committee, and they are
absolutely and they don't evenswim there, they don't even swim
in the pond, but they decidedthat this was a battle that they
(06:13):
needed to fight, and they'vecome in and they've basically
taken over this this uhcommittee, and they are going to
make sure that trans womencannot swim there, even though
nobody else gave a dab.
And that's how bad it's gettingnow.
Jonathan (06:28):
You know, um I think one of the first battles of
feminism in the late Victorianperiod was against the urinary
leash that were placed uponwomen because there were no
public toilets for women, sowomen couldn't really leave the
house for longer periods of timebecause there was nowhere for
them to use the facility.
(06:48):
They had to be in the companyof men and they couldn't really
go far from home.
Do you feel that that that'scoming around again?
That that is being that thatleash is being deployed against
trans people?
Adele (07:01):
Oh yes, and that this business about uh public
toilets, I've never everunderstood it.
Because every time I go into awoman's public toilet, there's a
male cleaner in there.
So you don't need to dress upas a woman in order to go there
and molest people.
Not that you would be, but youknow what I mean.
You just go in with a mop or aduster.
(07:23):
So that's been ridiculous.
But I have to say, one thingthat has really saddened me
about this is I have mosteverybody has been very
supportive and of it, but I haveone friend, well, she's
actually my cousin's partner,which makes it uh my partner's
cousin, which makes it worse.
I've known her for 50 years,and when the Supreme Court
(07:46):
ruling came out, she rang me upto talk to me about it, and she
said, Well, I I think that womenand and uh children do need to
be protected in the publicspace.
And I went, what do you imaginegoes on in which public toilets
do you go to?
People go in, they lock thedoor, they have a pee, and then
they wash their hands and theygo.
And she was a but but and Isaid, So what you're saying is
(08:08):
that trans women are a threat towomen in public toilets.
And she went, Well, yeah, Isaid, so I'm a threat to people
in public toilets.
She went, Well, no, not you.
I said, Well, you can't have itboth ways.
I'm sorry, either all transwomen are a threat in public
toilets, which is ridiculous, orI'm a, you know, if I'm one of
(08:29):
them.
So you can't have it both waysand say, well, some are and some
aren't, because it just doesn'twork like that.
And that really upset me,actually, because because I
thought better of her for that.
But you're quite right, yes,people will stop going to the
toilet now.
Um, not everybody can get adisabled key.
And uh the danger of beingchallenged, I mean the
(08:51):
humiliation of being challenged,as a lot of cis-gendered women
are finding out now, beingchallenged in public toilets,
uh, it's ridiculous.
And we can't have vigilantismof people policing, people going
in and out of toilets.
All we want to go in, allanybody wants to do is to go in
and go to the loom and then washyour hands and go out again.
James (09:12):
Yeah, it's it's crazy how much has changed.
Now, how how alarming is it howquickly things have changed?
And how how are you feelingabout the speed of change?
Adele (09:23):
Well, I'm I'm hoping that it's going to slow slightly
now.
Now that the Good Law projectare on the case, uh and uh the
fact that the government issaying that, is realizing that
this this law is completelyunworkable.
Women in sport, I think, is adifferent matter.
Um, but I think women in inpublic, if every everybody seems
(09:47):
to be going on about the publictoilets.
I mean, I think there are otherthings to discuss, uh the women
in sport or or in in umrefugees, whatever.
But you know, trans women getbeaten up too, and that's a
ridiculous thing, that transwomen are more like you know,
are more likely to be thevictims of male violence than
(10:08):
cis-gendered women are.
And uh, but that is notconsidered.
We are sort of being put into acategory of not, they want to
get away.
It sometimes it seems that someof the politicians actually
want to take away our humanrights.
And if the government evermoved to get us to leave the
European Court of Human Rights,that would be the end of us.
Jonathan (10:31):
And so you've got a group of people here.
It's hopefully we'll go out tothe podcast to for more people
to listen to.
Yes.
What is your message to them?
Adele (10:42):
Well, the message is never take anything for granted.
You know, um, I have I'm sorryto say that there are some
people in the in the in the gaymovement who feel, well, that we
can be uh uh as long as theirrights are protected, they can
cut off the trans.
The trans can be let go as andbecause because then nothing
(11:06):
will happen to them.
But if they come for us today,they'll come for you tomorrow.
So you can never take any ofyour rights for granted.
You have to constantly fightfor them, and it's wearisome and
it's fed up.
And we have to be allies toeach other as well.
If you attack one of us, youattack all of us.
James (11:26):
Thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast.
Really do appreciate it you'veshown you.
Jonathan (11:38):
Thank you for listening to the view from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (11:50):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund.
And the idea of holding a gaypride march.
To challenge that shamefulview.
Equality.
(00:21):
And for some people inStonewall like me, equality was
kind of like what you got to asa starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
James (00:42):
We have, she's here, uh Adele Anderson, a singer,
actress, and writer, best knownas a member of the acclaimed
cabaret group, Fascinating Aida,and a passionate advocate for
trans visibility and equality.
And we're going to hear fromAdele in a bit because we are
going to do a live podcastrecording right here in a couple
of minutes.
So don't go anywhere.
Jonathan (01:02):
And don't make any noise when you have to be a bit
and very quiet.
James (01:08):
The background to this, we recorded Adele in January.
And I think what's really,really sad to think about is
just how much has gone downhillin trans rights from January to
now.
And it's actually reallyshocking.
And so, you know, it's notnecessarily going to be the most
uplifting chat we're going tohave in a few minutes' time.
And so now I think we're goingto invite Adele up onto the
(01:29):
stage.
We're going to do a littlerecording so wonderful you're
here.
I'm really excited about this,and I think it's going to be
great.
So, Adele, tell us a bit aboutyourself and introduce yourself
to our audience.
Adele (01:50):
Right.
My name's Adele Anderson.
I was born in 1952.
I began my transition in 1973,and I had I was fully surgically
completed in 1978.
And I went, I was under thecare of the infamous Dr.
John Randall at Charing CrossHospital, who always encouraged
(02:13):
us to live in stealth.
So for a long time, I didn'ttell anybody that I was trans.
It wasn't a thing that you youtried to conceal it.
And then I in 1984 I joinedFascinating Aida, the wonderful
Dilly Keene, and a series ofsopranos over the years.
And I found my my haven andI've been entertaining people
(02:34):
around the country ever sincethen.
And a lot of people know, a lotof the audience know that I'm
trans.
A lot of people didn't, andit's never made any difference.
Even when we we sang a songabout it was called Prisoner of
Gender, and uh which I actuallysang about my transition, and
there little old ladies wereoverheard saying, Why is she
(02:54):
singing that song?
I don't know what's uh and Iwas but over the last few years
I saw the way the tide wasturning, and I'd been much more
encouraged to be openly transand to talk about trans matters.
And then, as you say, we have aSupreme Court ruling this year.
I had to be on a cruise up theDalmatian coast when it
(03:17):
happened, and I remember cominginto the bar and feeling quite
sick.
And never I did it was a verysmall cruise, and I'd only met
these people recently.
They all came round and offeredme support, and that was that
was all wonderful.
And I it actually hasn'taffected me that much so far
because I've not ever beenchallenged going into a women's
(03:38):
toilet or a women's changingroom, and that I think that will
continue.
Uh, I don't know yet what wouldhappen next time I'm I'm
admitted to hospital, becauseI've spent plenty of time in
women's wards.
It could be that I'll have tohave a private room, wouldn't
that be dreadful?
Uh and we'll see what happenswhen I try and renew my passport
(04:00):
in 2027.
But what I have noticed is yes,this is a change towards uh the
attitude towards trans people.
We look back and I think ofwhen Dana International won uh
won Eurovision, when Nadia wonBig Brother, and then we had we
had trans characters in all thesoaps, and suddenly the right
(04:22):
wing uh, sorry, I'm gonna bepolitical, but the Christian
nationalists and the right wingpress have really just done a
number on us.
And most people had not beenconcerned about these matters
until they were being told thatthey should.
I have found myselfself-censoring a bit.
I did a show recently and Iknew I was going to be sharing a
(04:43):
dressing room with three youngactresses, and I felt I had to
say within the rehearsal periodthat I was trans, just in case
any of them had an objection tothat, which they didn't, of
course.
Uh then also I did a workshopfor a feminist musical last
year, and they checked myavailability to see if I could
(05:04):
do it this year, and I thought Iprobably shouldn't do this
musical this year, becausesomebody might it only takes one
person to complain.
And then uh so I didn'tactually, I mean I couldn't do
it, but I I didn't actually doit.
But I've got an absoluteexample of how dreadful things
are getting at the momentbecause my I have a very good
friend, and she swims in theHampstead Women's Pond every
(05:28):
day.
Uh come rain or shine.
And recently uh that uh it wasinsisted by the London
Corporation, I think, that theyhad to have a vote about whether
trans women could could becontinue to be admitted.
And they all said that's fine,we have got no problem with it.
Well, they didn't like thatanswer, so then they went to
another committee and they hadanother thing about that.
(05:49):
They also said it was fine, andthen a group of um turfs
stormed the AGM and basicallymanaged to get one of the one of
their uh members elected ontothe uh committee, and they are
absolutely and they don't evenswim there, they don't even swim
in the pond, but they decidedthat this was a battle that they
(06:13):
needed to fight, and they'vecome in and they've basically
taken over this this uhcommittee, and they are going to
make sure that trans womencannot swim there, even though
nobody else gave a dab.
And that's how bad it's gettingnow.
Jonathan (06:28):
You know, um I think one of the first battles of
feminism in the late Victorianperiod was against the urinary
leash that were placed uponwomen because there were no
public toilets for women, sowomen couldn't really leave the
house for longer periods of timebecause there was nowhere for
them to use the facility.
(06:48):
They had to be in the companyof men and they couldn't really
go far from home.
Do you feel that that that'scoming around again?
That that is being that thatleash is being deployed against
trans people?
Adele (07:01):
Oh yes, and that this business about uh public
toilets, I've never everunderstood it.
Because every time I go into awoman's public toilet, there's a
male cleaner in there.
So you don't need to dress upas a woman in order to go there
and molest people.
Not that you would be, but youknow what I mean.
You just go in with a mop or aduster.
(07:23):
So that's been ridiculous.
But I have to say, one thingthat has really saddened me
about this is I have mosteverybody has been very
supportive and of it, but I haveone friend, well, she's
actually my cousin's partner,which makes it uh my partner's
cousin, which makes it worse.
I've known her for 50 years,and when the Supreme Court
(07:46):
ruling came out, she rang me upto talk to me about it, and she
said, Well, I I think that womenand and uh children do need to
be protected in the publicspace.
And I went, what do you imaginegoes on in which public toilets
do you go to?
People go in, they lock thedoor, they have a pee, and then
they wash their hands and theygo.
And she was a but but and Isaid, So what you're saying is
(08:08):
that trans women are a threat towomen in public toilets.
And she went, Well, yeah, Isaid, so I'm a threat to people
in public toilets.
She went, Well, no, not you.
I said, Well, you can't have itboth ways.
I'm sorry, either all transwomen are a threat in public
toilets, which is ridiculous, orI'm a, you know, if I'm one of
(08:29):
them.
So you can't have it both waysand say, well, some are and some
aren't, because it just doesn'twork like that.
And that really upset me,actually, because because I
thought better of her for that.
But you're quite right, yes,people will stop going to the
toilet now.
Um, not everybody can get adisabled key.
And uh the danger of beingchallenged, I mean the
(08:51):
humiliation of being challenged,as a lot of cis-gendered women
are finding out now, beingchallenged in public toilets,
uh, it's ridiculous.
And we can't have vigilantismof people policing, people going
in and out of toilets.
All we want to go in, allanybody wants to do is to go in
and go to the loom and then washyour hands and go out again.
James (09:12):
Yeah, it's it's crazy how much has changed.
Now, how how alarming is it howquickly things have changed?
And how how are you feelingabout the speed of change?
Adele (09:23):
Well, I'm I'm hoping that it's going to slow slightly
now.
Now that the Good Law projectare on the case, uh and uh the
fact that the government issaying that, is realizing that
this this law is completelyunworkable.
Women in sport, I think, is adifferent matter.
Um, but I think women in inpublic, if every everybody seems
(09:47):
to be going on about the publictoilets.
I mean, I think there are otherthings to discuss, uh the women
in sport or or in in umrefugees, whatever.
But you know, trans women getbeaten up too, and that's a
ridiculous thing, that transwomen are more like you know,
are more likely to be thevictims of male violence than
(10:08):
cis-gendered women are.
And uh, but that is notconsidered.
We are sort of being put into acategory of not, they want to
get away.
It sometimes it seems that someof the politicians actually
want to take away our humanrights.
And if the government evermoved to get us to leave the
European Court of Human Rights,that would be the end of us.
Jonathan (10:31):
And so you've got a group of people here.
It's hopefully we'll go out tothe podcast to for more people
to listen to.
Yes.
What is your message to them?
Adele (10:42):
Well, the message is never take anything for granted.
You know, um, I have I'm sorryto say that there are some
people in the in the in the gaymovement who feel, well, that we
can be uh uh as long as theirrights are protected, they can
cut off the trans.
The trans can be let go as andbecause because then nothing
(11:06):
will happen to them.
But if they come for us today,they'll come for you tomorrow.
So you can never take any ofyour rights for granted.
You have to constantly fightfor them, and it's wearisome and
it's fed up.
And we have to be allies toeach other as well.
If you attack one of us, youattack all of us.
James (11:26):
Thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast.
Really do appreciate it you'veshown you.
Jonathan (11:38):
Thank you for listening to the view from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (11:50):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
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