December 16, 2025 • 57 mins
We sit down with the activist and actor, Jill Nalder, whose real life shaped the TV series It’s a Sin, to uncover how a makeshift home in London became a blueprint for chosen family, mutual aid, and relentless care during the HIV crisis. From youth theatre in Wales to drama school in the city, Jill shows how safe spaces grow courage and how that courage fuelled nights of laughter, emergency phone calls, and the kind of honesty that saves lives.
Jill opens up about the disorienting early days of HIV: rumours framed as “gay flu,” weeks-long waits for test results, and government messaging that stoked fear instead of clarity. She explains the grassroots network that filled the gap—helplines, the gay press, hospital leaflets, and blunt, shame-free sex education. Then the West End stepped in. Drawing inspiration from Broadway Cares, Jill and friends launched West End Cares, transforming late-night cabarets and bucket collections into hardship grants and research support. Actor, curtain calls, and queues at venues raised cash and delivered real change.
Jill’s reflections on “going home,” chosen family, and the ethics of care show what happens when art becomes activism, bringing with it compassion, courage and hope.
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This episode was hosted by Jonathan Chambers and James Alexander
Editing by Hannah Stewart
Music: Mystify created by AlterEgo
Visit our website, https://tvfh.co.uk
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
Intro (00:11):
A group of us in the Gay Liberation Fund hit on the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Speaker (00:20):
Equality, and for some people in Stonewall like me,
equality was kind of like whatyou got to as a starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View from Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
Today we're joined by JillNadler, a tireless HIV AIDS
activist and theatre performerwhose real-life story inspired
(00:49):
the TV programme It's a Sin.
James (00:51):
Today's episode explores themes of crisis, compassion,
and community.
Jill tells us about herchildhood in Wales, her time at
drama school in London,surrounded by gay friends, and
the emerging tragedy as the HIVcrisis unfolded around her.
Jonathan (01:05):
This is an adult podcast exploring an often
difficult period of LGBTQhistory.
And as such, the seriescontains discussions of suicide,
conversion therapy, homophobia,transphobia, drug use, strong
language, and graphic sexualdescriptions.
It also has a lot of joy andlaughs along the way.
Jill (01:52):
Well, I'm thrilled to be here after that.
After that enormously uh hugeintroduction, yes, I'm very
happy to be here.
James (01:59):
So you grew up in Neathan, Wales, and you talk
about a small town upbringingwith open-minded parents.
Yes.
How important was, or how wasthat a juxtaposition?
How how did that change?
Jill (02:11):
You know, I I think that anybody who's lucky enough to
have parents that are quiteliberal and open and can and
accepting.
That's the thing about my mumand dad.
They were very accepting of myfriends and of my life and my
choices, which, although, youknow, when you choose something
like acting and the theatre,that can cause a lot of issues
at home because people want youto, you know, maybe get all your
(02:36):
qualifications, go touniversity, do all that sort of
thing.
Um, and my parents did wantthat, and they wanted me to get
my education, but once I did acertain to my A levels, they
were very liberal in supportingme with what I wanted to do.
So I felt very lucky aboutthat, you know, and they were
very accepting.
They were a bit older, myparents, when when I was born,
(02:58):
than sort of I mean, you'retalking in the 60s, so my
parents, my mum was 37 when shehad me, and I was her first
baby.
So that's quite old as far asyou know, it's it's almost
normal now.
But back in the 60s, that wasan old she was an older mum.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Right.
Jill (03:15):
So I think she'd had a lot of life experience, and so had
my dad before they had children.
So I think that may go towardsbeing more liberal.
Jonathan (03:24):
I mean, I I think one of the reasons why you've just
had an OBE is that you've justbeen the staunch ally and
advocate for our community foryour whole life.
Jill (03:34):
Well, I've got to say the OBE was on the back of many
people.
You know, I have I was honouredenough to get it, but there's a
lot of people behind all thethings that we do, the charity,
the fundraising, the activism.
I was very lucky to get it,let's be fair.
There's a lot of people doingthe groundwork as well.
Jonathan (03:52):
Many shoulders.
Many shoulders, that's theright expression.
I wonder if you can think backto a time in Neath where you
think, actually, that's thefirst time I met a gay person.
Jill (04:04):
I I can completely, because I was in the theatre as
a child and I met some peoplefrom uh the cast of a show,
Godspell.
I went to see Godspell when Iwas in school, and I loved it so
much.
I went to see it like the wholeweek at Swansea Grand Theatre,
and on on the back of seeingthat, I wanted to do everything
(04:24):
that was involved with drama.
So I was about 14 years old.
I became aware, I heard peopletalking and and saying, you
know, uh about being gay, and Ihadn't really understood it, and
perhaps didn't fully understandit then, but but it it became a
very new thing in my in myworld.
(04:45):
I didn't really understand it.
Um, and I thought it was allamazing and exotic, and you
know, it was something sodifferent from Duravail in
comprehensive school.
So it was it was that likethere was a it was part of
theatre, it seemed to me.
James (05:01):
And people were talking about, I guess, being gay, not
in a negative way, whichpresumably is having heard of
it.
Jill (05:07):
They were just talking about so-and-so-and so-and-so
had a boyfriend, and I mean theywere then that that was when
they were talking about a man.
Yeah.
And so that was a new thing tome.
And I thought, I I kind ofliked anything that was a bit
out there, you know.
It was it was exciting to menot to be part of a I I thought
it was more than a small townexistence, although it isn't,
(05:28):
it's a perfectly normal part oflife.
But when you're brought up oneway and you you only really see
certain aspects of life, then itbecomes something very exciting
to me.
The whole theatre, the wholeacting, the whole different
kinds of worlds that people wereliving in.
James (05:44):
And that that was the incredible space, safe space you
had at uh West Glenmorgan YouthTheatre.
Jill (05:50):
Yeah, so that came slightly after my experience of
going to Swansea Grand Theatre,and then I joined the youth
theatre, and then you know,there was there were they
weren't men, they were boys,they were all gay boys, not all,
uh a community of gay boys thatwere dancers and actors, and
and there was a very it was avery safe space.
(06:13):
Somehow we were lucky, I saywe, including myself, because I
had all the fun and the joy ofit.
But the boys were lucky becausethey had somewhere where they
could truly express themselvesand make very good friends as
young teenagers, and I thinkthat's that gave a lot of those
boys, I know it did, give them afriendship group that was a
(06:36):
cushion to the outside worldwhere most people didn't
actually come out so readily totheir parents.
James (06:42):
What what made it such a a sort of open safe space?
Jill (06:46):
I have no idea how to do it.
James (06:49):
We need more of it.
Jill (06:50):
That was the secret.
I I absolutely have no idea howit put the people together that
it did.
But the people that auditionedus initially and put us into, we
had a very um a very good uhhead of drama for the county,
um, a guy by the name of GodfreyEvans, to whom which we all owe
a great debt, you know, justputting people together.
(07:11):
He he must have had a knack andan eye for seeing the people
that have the talent.
Um I'm talking about the boysnow, and and sometimes, you
know, when you're doing thingsin in a school or you're taking
people from schools, you alsoknow people who are having
difficulties and be known to thechildren around you, children
that might be struggling athome, struggling with
(07:33):
self-expression, things likethat.
So I think they they had an eyefor that as well.
And when talent was there andthey could express themselves
through drama, they created asafe space.
And if you can't create a safespace through drama, which I
will say they're cutting allover the country, you know, if
you can't create a safe spacethrough drama, where can you?
(07:53):
Because that is a prime aprimary form of self-expression,
and requires empathy, andrequires empathy and requires uh
a mixture of all all kinds ofthings, but you can feel free
within a scene to expressyourself or write something to
express yourself or improvise,and and all all the time you're
(08:14):
growing and and finding out whoyou are, and the boys were
finding out who they were, and Ithink that's that's primarily
why it was safe.
Jonathan (08:22):
And so you made a journey that actually lots of
gay young gay men make.
You moved from Wales to come toLondon, to come to the big
city, yes, and you know, whileit may not always be London,
often gay men will move from theprovinces to the to the city.
Yes.
What was it like?
Tell us you arrived inPaddington, presumably, and
joyous.
Jill (08:42):
I mean, I arrived in a car, my parents bought me
because I didn't want to bringall my stuff.
But I I came up from myaudition on the train um from my
drama school, which was MountView, which was where I trained.
And so I loved the idea ofLondon anyway.
I love I love it.
I still love it, I still livehere.
I think it's a great city, um,and all that was very exciting.
(09:04):
And I met people, you know,again, it opens your your world.
Again, I mean our youththeatre, which we you feel like
a safe space, drama school ismore competitive, there's more
pressure out there within dramaschools to succeed because you
you know they're training youfor the theatre.
But London was it seemed to bethe place to be.
It is the place to be.
(09:24):
Yeah, it's the centre of theuniverse and then the many ways,
it's sort of the the best city,you know.
James (09:31):
Yeah.
And that's when you not longafter that, you moved into the
Pink Palace.
Jill (09:36):
That's correct.
So so the Pink Palace was a joybecause we had had um some very
dodgy accommodation when youwere looking for your digs or
what you might call somewhere tolive as a student, you know,
student digs.
Because when we came to dramaschool, you didn't have halls of
residence or anything like thatthat you might get in your
university.
There was no cushion for you.
(09:57):
You just had to find somewhereto live and get on with it.
Get yourself to the, you know,where you were called in the
morning to come to classes orwhatever, you you were
responsible entirely foryourself.
Which I think looking back isquite hard now when I think of
myself.
I was only 18.
So, you know, I think when yougo to university that you're
looked after a lot, but we couldhave been anywhere and
(10:18):
anything.
And people that in my dramacollege they uh had spent nights
in hostels and you know,everyone was just on their own.
So, so eventually, you know, wefound some very weird
accommodations and not verynice.
And then Jay, um, my very well,my closest friend in the world,
he found um an advert sayingaccommodation, you know, in in
(10:41):
the Hammond High, which is theHampstead and Highgate Gazette.
This apartment that wasavailable, £80 a week for
people.
That's so cheap, it'sunbelievable.
Even then, it was quite cheap.
James (10:55):
These days it's even outrageously.
Jill (10:57):
Oh my word, it's so cheap.
And so we thought it wasn'tgoing to be up to much, but
we'll have a look anyway becauseit was so reasonable.
And then it was fantastic, itwas so glorious, it was so funny
because it was so pink withpink carpets, dark pink carpets,
darkish pink curtains, pinkfurniture, chandeliers.
It was the most extraordinaryplace, looked sort of the inside
(11:20):
of a very glamorous restaurant.
Um, and so we were laughing.
Of course, it was camp.
Yeah, it was funny, we couldn'tbelieve it.
And so we were just calling it,oh my gosh, like a palace.
And then it became the PinkPalace.
It had no other possible title.
And Russell loved it.
Russell came there, RussellDavis, who subsequently wrote
(11:40):
It's a Sin and and sort of gavethe Pink Palace a place in
history.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah.
Jill (11:46):
Because he put it there.
And people kind of loved thename, but we did, and everyone
would go, oh, come round to thePink Palace and have lunch or
have supper or come to a partyat the Pink Palace.
And that was how it transpired.
But it's just genuinely becauseit was pink, promptly pink.
James (12:02):
The parties just sound legendary.
The neighbors must have hatedyou, but the party sounded
incredible.
Jill (12:07):
I don't know that they seem to have very thick walls
and a very high tolerance.
So I we didn't have any truecomplaints from anybody.
And upstairs, above us, was aband who had a chart it who were
rehearsing.
We could hear them rehearsing,not even very loudly, through
the floor.
And so we were there, they wereabove us, and it seemed to go
(12:27):
along very harmoniously.
Jonathan (12:29):
So I sometimes feel that these happenstance events,
these places, these gatheringsare harder and harder and harder
to find now because things arenow.
I mean, you'd never findanything for £80 a week that it
wasn't cardboard box or abridge.
No.
Um and the Pink, you know, asJames said, the Pink Palace
became famous um through RussellT.
(12:49):
Davis.
It's the same, you've writtenthe most beautiful memoir, Love
from the Pink Palace.
When did Russell approach youfor the first time and say, hey,
I've got this idea?
Jill (12:59):
So that's that's quite interesting because of course
that goes back in my memories.
I'm not 100% sure when the theactual time that he decided, but
he before lockdown and he wastalking about what he wanted to
do was write about the boys.
He thought it was time to writeabout the boys, time to tell
(13:20):
their story.
That's what he wanted to do.
And it grew and grew and becamesomething very different.
No, it didn't become different,it was it still became about
the boys, but then of course itit sort of involved me more than
I thought it was going to.
I mean, let's be fair, I had abig shock when suddenly it was
mentioned on the television, youknow.
(13:40):
So um, and then once they saidJill is a real person, that's
when I yeah sort of led into avery different part of my life,
really.
James (13:50):
Because your your character is central to it's a
which which is right, that's howit that's how it should be
portrayed.
Jill (13:56):
It's amazing how it happened, but I think he wanted
to tell the story of a group offriends because friends were
family, and and that's what weall became because blood family
sometimes were very distant orfeared because of the stigma,
and so we were a family ofourselves, really different
forms, which very often happens.
(14:17):
I mean, I don't think we werehugely unusual.
I think that was happening,still happens for various
reasons, you know, around theworld, things that people go
through, places that you put,and and that time and space, all
of us in London, all of usyoung, became a a little well,
that family is the best word forit, you know, it does the
(14:37):
chosen family.
James (14:39):
And that's and that's that's very much how you you
write it in the book as well.
It's a it's a love story, astory of family, a story of
Yeah, that's nice you say that.
Jill (14:48):
It's very nice you say that because that's what it it
felt like.
It felt like um we werefighting the world out there in
a way, and and they werefighting differently from me.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm fighting on behalfof people that I loved, but they
of course are fighting fortheir lives and fighting not to
be stigmatized, and theirjourney is far, far harder.
(15:09):
Yeah.
And that's where Russell wantedto tell their story, you know.
Jonathan (15:12):
So let's let's move to the world out there.
When was the first time thatyou heard whispers of this
disease affecting gay men?
Jill (15:22):
Well, I the yes, I mean those things are they they
dribble through yourconsciousness.
Do you know what I mean?
You you don't you don't reallyclock it.
I heard I I saw this littlearticle in Pineapple the Dance
Place.
I'd gone for a a a class, anexercise class, and there was a
uh newspaper in the cafe, and Iwas just picking it up and
reading it, and there was asmall article in that about a
(15:42):
gay flu, which said that some uhyou know gay men had got this
illness, which it was like aflu-like illness, that's what it
was written as, which I canonly think was symptomatic of
you know the infection at thetime, but not the actual uh it
was not called HIV or AIDS, itwas just called this illness.
And then I clocked it andthought that's a very um weird
(16:04):
way to write about an illness,gay.
Gay flu, I think it said, andinverted commas.
And then I heard some peoplemaking some horrible comments
about gay men in um a wine barin um I think it was Mayfair
area, while I was doingsomething or seeing someone
doing a cabaret, and I heardsome very nasty comments about
some people who've been inAmerica and say gay men were
(16:26):
spreading a disease.
Something like that comments.
It is a gradual drip feed,really, before you started
seeing that people in Americathat knew people who knew
people, someone had actuallydied, and then it became more
and more, oh my goodness, whatis it?
And then rumors started.
So I'd say over from the early80s to the mid-80s, it became uh
(16:48):
something really fearful.
Yeah.
And then it began, and I can'ttell say off the top of my head
now the date that I noticed thatit was, you know, it became HIV
AIDS because it was linked to avirus, then it was linked to
how it spread, then it waslinked to certain behaviours,
and then it was finally linkedto blood, you know, just in into
(17:09):
your bloodstream in some way,and eventually it was linked to
you know, um drug users, bloodtransfusions, various forms of
sexual behaviour, all that kindof thing.
So it's it grew and grew andgrew.
You know, if you think ofCOVID, I mean we had much more
information available.
So COVID, we knew quicker whatwas going on, and obviously with
(17:32):
much more tolerance, but it wasa slower feed with HIV.
You couldn't find outinformation.
James (17:37):
Is that because is that because the government thought
it's a gay disease, we won't wedon't need to worry about it.
Jill (17:42):
I was sure that there was something of that.
I'm quite sure that initiallythat's part and parcel of it's
segregated to gay men, yeah, Ivydrug users, you know, uh uh uh
in Haiti, kind of communitieswhere people are not given the
same depth of care.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Yeah.
Jill (18:03):
And horribly so, but I think that was the truth at the
time.
Um sex workers, you know, so itbecomes like a subculture and
people are being, you know,blamed instead of cared for.
And the blame was the was thething that really I think I I s
I imagine if you are an IV druguser, you're already feeling
(18:28):
pretty battered by society in away.
And then then gay men adding tothat, and then sex workers,
everybody that already mighthave felt bad about something in
their in their life.
And I'm not saying they shouldhave or anything like that.
James (18:43):
I'm just saying, and I'm not saying that all crumpled
down.
Jill (18:47):
That's a great way of putting it, but I'm not saying
that all sex workers, some youknow, people have choices, but
still there is a stigma to allof those things.
Jonathan (18:56):
Yeah, those in those furly day early days it was the
four H's, so homosexuals,hemophiliacs, um heroin users,
and Haitians.
Jill (19:05):
Yes, yes.
Jonathan (19:06):
Um and it was when it it was when it kind of came into
Haitians that everyone waslike, hold on, this is this
seems to not be fitting our Youknow what I mean.
Jill (19:14):
It was so strange the way the way that that evolved.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it it becameum there was an innocent group
of people that caught it, uhpassed it on, or whatever, that
was seen as unfortunate,innocent victims and people who
seemed you're the people toblame.
And that's really uh I meanit's a virus at the end of the
(19:37):
day and it's it'sindiscriminate.
Right.
And so instead of which you youwould always feel like those
groups that were slight were nomuch more affected in the early
days, instead of seeing them asa beacon of hope and caring for
them and preparing where thiscould go, they were stigmatized
and blamed.
James (19:57):
And was and was there a sense of incredulity that this
could Only be a virus thatsomehow attacks very unique
specific sections of thepopulation.
Jill (20:07):
I mean how how is how can that be?
And and if you're not medicallytrained in any way, then you
you can't even understand thatinitially.
James (20:15):
Well, because our medical understanding now is obviously
better, but but we still hadvery good medical understanding
then.
It wasn't like we were at thebeginning times of understanding
medicine.
Jill (20:26):
No, I but I think it's it's when any new illness is out
there, or any new disease orvirus or bacteria, then then
medical science will justscience will always just look
for the truth.
Science is always justresearching.
So and they have to go throughthose processes of how is this
happening?
What is this?
Because I heard a veryinteresting piece of television
(20:49):
it was with a woman who, and Ibelieve it was a woman, who
flagged up the fact that she wasshe was in control of a drug
called septurin, and the drugwas used to treat various forms
of pneumocystis pneumonia, andso and that was unusual.
It was a it was a I think youhad to, you know, ask for the
drug, it had to be whateverchannels they went through in
(21:11):
the States, they had to be, youknow, get hold of the drug
because it wasn't commoneverywhere, everywhere all the
time.
Certainly pneumocystis wasn't.
So when the and it was her, Ithink her journey, uh story is
quite incredible because sheheard that she flagged it up for
a 21-year-old man in SanFrancisco, and she noted that
(21:32):
that was unusual.
Well, within a few weeks, ofcourse, she'd had that about
three or four times.
So she flagged up the unusualthing that was happening, and
then that became known toscience, to medicine, because it
has to start somewhere.
You have to notice thatsomething is not is out of the
norm to flag up that why is thisgoing on?
(21:53):
And then it transpired thatthese were gay men, and then the
rumors began.
But she did a good thing, shewas flagging up we have a
there's something going onhealth-wise here, and so she was
doing a very and I thought thatwas quite fascinating.
Jonathan (22:07):
And when was the first time it came crashing into your
world, your immediate world?
When when did it hit the pigpalette?
Jill (22:13):
Yeah, well, well, that was in drama school, really.
That was when I was in dramaschool.
So you're talking uh it wastowards the end of our time, so
early 80s, when one of our boys,not one of my closest, closest
friends, but one of the boysthat I was in a group with in
drama school got sick.
And then, of course, he wasagain quite secretive.
(22:34):
So we only heard rumours.
Oh, he's and we had been inAmerica, we had done a tour in
America.
So there was always this thingabout the danger of Americans,
because Americans, I know, it iscrazy.
But it is, it was it was said,you know, it's all right to go
and and maybe meet up withsomeone for a uh a fun night
(22:55):
out, but careful if it's anAmerican, because you know that
this seemed to be another stigmathat poor America were getting,
you know.
James (23:03):
Um but the virus, I suppose, was in circulation more
than it was.
Jill (23:08):
Certainly San Francisco and certainly in New York City,
where where like London, youknow, things it was far more
prevalent in London than it wasin, you know, Purguing.
But it's um so so that was uhthat was uh my first real
encounter as one of our friends,and he didn't live very long.
(23:29):
He died very, very quickly.
And within my own group of mypeople that I loved and were my
close family friends, it was themid-80s when my friend Juan
he's amazing when my friend Juanphoned me to tell me that he
was positive and he'd had he hehad had um an illness, he had
(23:54):
something that we call now aseroconversion, and he had had
that and he'd fallen very sickfor a couple of weeks, didn't
know why.
And then subsequently I th Iprobably think about nine months
later, he was then diagnosed.
So he didn't he put it on theback burner, you know, because
because you could have thisinfection, your immune system
made a very dramatic response,but you could then feel well for
(24:17):
quite a while before thegradual deterioration of your
immune system.
It's a very complicated diseaseof which I'm not medical, but I
grew to have an uh anunderstanding of.
James (24:29):
Yeah.
And part of the challenge wastesting.
Jill (24:33):
Part of the challenge was testing.
I mean, there was no same-daytesting, there was nothing like
that.
You could go and get tested,then you'd wait weeks and weeks
and weeks, up to six weeks for aresult.
You could spread it in thattime.
unknown (24:46):
Yeah.
Jill (24:47):
If you didn't have any protection, people were not even
thinking of protected sex.
So you didn't know whether youwere positive or all those
people that you you know, it's ait's a promiscuous world.
It's young men out therelooking for sex.
People have sex, they have fun.
So that's the way it goes.
In that six weeks, you can havequite a few encounters, you can
(25:09):
spread it, you can, you know,catch it from somebody who
doesn't know they've got it.
So it's a conundrum, it was areal um fear and a whole what do
you call cauldron of confusionand fear.
James (25:22):
And then in terms of the availability of testing, and
something that I don't reallyunderstand is how the testing
system got off the ground in thefirst place, and you know,
because there was obviously a avery slow response from
governments across the world.
Yes.
Um but then at some pointtesting became something you
could get, albeit long waittimes and presumably a lot of
(25:45):
stigma for getting a test in thefirst place.
Jill (25:47):
I think what happened initially was you had to look
for antibodies in the blood.
You didn't you could not justsay you had because now they can
DNA test the virus, part viralparticles, and they can do the
um like they like people werecaught, you know, kick testing
for the virus with COVID.
Yeah, they but they couldn't dothat initially, they didn't
have the PCR tests and thingslike that to work on it to know
(26:11):
quick enough.
So they had to wait for you asa sick person to produce enough
antibodies to be to be measuredin the blood.
So day two after your initialinfection, you don't have that.
So that's why people didn'tknow for many weeks.
So then they go to be tested,then it'd have to get sent away,
and I don't know whereeverything went.
And then you could payeventually for a same-day
(26:35):
testing, which is much likeprivate health care.
You can go to a clinic, and bythe end of the day, they could
tell you if you had anyantibodies to HIV, but they
still couldn't tell you.
Yeah, it's still not tellingyou about the viral part.
James (26:46):
And that's still some time after exposure.
Jill (26:48):
Yeah, yeah.
James (26:48):
And you talk about your friend Jade did that, he paid
for the same day result.
Jill (26:54):
Went.
I have no idea, but we went toa clinic somewhere in Regents
Park.
Must be near Harley Street orsomething, but they said they
were doing same-day testing.
You'd get information out ofthe small amount of gay press
that was around, you know, orthe s or the helplines, you
know, gay switchboard and thatsort of thing.
Anyway, I don't know how wefound out about it with the
same-day clinic.
It is nerve-wracking, and youit is now when you think of
(27:17):
anything.
As you get older, you becomemore aware that you might have
to have a test for this and atest for that.
And you know what that is withhealth.
Anyone who's waiting forhorrible news, you know, waiting
for that, that's what it waslike.
It was ultra horrible newsbecause if you were told, then
it was a death sentence.
So sometimes when you are goingfor today's horrible news, you
(27:39):
might have something, but itmight not be a death sentence,
it might be something, yes,life-limiting, but not
necessarily.
So you're going to have news,bad news, worse news, but there
was no doubt that it was a deathsentence.
And there was all that thatwent with it.
I've got to tell my family,I've got to, you know.
And we we were in our earlytwenties.
Jonathan (27:59):
And these were people who had to tell their family who
maybe hadn't even come out totheir family.
Jill (28:04):
Hadn't come out.
I mean, I don't think at thatpoint any of my friendship group
would come out to their family,maybe to their siblings, but
certainly not to their parents.
But that went on a long timebefore people came out to their
parents.
James (28:17):
And he used the phrase going home.
Jill (28:19):
Which Russell used that in it's a sin.
And that was a phrase.
And it was it wasn't in itwasn't given the same context as
as you give it now, because youyou now see it with hindsight
of that phrase.
But you know, people have gonehome always gone home, but you
know, you didn't know if theywere sick, you didn't know if
you'd see them again.
There was another boy in in thecast of West Side Story who
(28:41):
also disappeared, you know, andyou think, where is he?
He hasn't come in.
You know, not not from thecast.
The show had closed, but heused to come into the piano bar
or to Madame Jojo's and okay,where where is he?
He's not here.
Oh, he's gone home.
He's living in Canada.
Oh, okay, that's you know, soso again it was a mystery,
everything was shrouded in oh, Idon't know what what would be
(29:06):
the uh a bad enough word in myheart to describe it.
It was almost like um anisolation, but it a stigmatized
isolation.
Do you know what I mean?
Jonathan (29:18):
I find that um expression going home very
poignant because it it'shorrible, but what it also
presupposes that there is thatthere was a home to go to.
Jill (29:29):
Well, yes.
Jonathan (29:30):
You know, I so I so full disclosure to the nine or
each other a little bit.
Um I'm Jamaica and I grew up inJamaica and I was extremely
lucky with the family that Ihad.
I could say I'm going home.
But people ask me thatquestion, oh, when are you going
home?
And they mean Jamaica.
Yes.
And I say that is the questionof someone who whose home still
(29:53):
wants them.
Yes.
So I gr you know, Jamaica isstill a society where it's still
illegal to be gay.
Um and it's it's challenging tobe publicly gay in Jamaica.
More than challenging.
That's a that's a ridiculousdifference.
unknown (30:06):
Yes.
Jonathan (30:07):
So home is for me here.
Yes.
You know, I am Jamaican and Ihave Jamaican history, but home
is here because it's where I wasable to be who I am.
And I think one of theremarkable things about the
story that you share is that youprovided a home for all these
people.
Um, gonna get emotional Do youf do you recognize that?
Jill (30:33):
Well, uh it's the first time that's been said, and and
it's it's so interesting to hearyou say it when you come from
somewhere that you can't beyourself a hundred percent.
And it's very interestingbecause when we used that phrase
going home, and I Russell usedit in It's a Sin, it was going
home to hide, and it was goinghome because the families very
(30:53):
often felt shame and they didn'twant that known, so they were
not going home to the comfort.
Sometimes, of course, peoplewere, sometimes people were, but
many times people were goinghome to be hidden away, to be
put in the back room, and andyou know, because people
couldn't cope with it, and andthey didn't want friends and
neighbours and that knowing thatsomebody had AIDS because it
(31:16):
was was called AIDS then.
Now we say HIV and you say HIVpositive, and that the the words
HIV positive and combinationtherapy and everything inspires
the idea that you have amanageable condition, which it
is, then AIDS was the word thatmeant hide away.
And so they went home with a acloud over them.
(31:39):
They didn't go home to betreated, you know, l mm, of
course, lovingly by parents thatwere tolerant, of course, but
maybe very often pretend they'vegot cancer, don't say anything,
you know, all of that kind ofthing.
Because a lot of peoplepretended they had cancer.
James (31:55):
And and that stigma, of course, was partly created by
the government at the time, withthe the adverts.
Jill (32:01):
Yes, I mean, you know, and I think everything was done,
sometimes done with an intentionthat wasn't bad, but then it
got twisted by everythingbecause because instead of the
that horrible ad campaign thatI've talked about where it says,
you know, um don't die ofignorance.
That it wasn't done it was doneto create people's fear to make
(32:24):
them, you know, look afterthemselves, to be careful, to
not catch it if they didn't needto.
But what what it did was makepeople more frightened of gay
men.
That's why it became morestigmatized for gay men, because
all of a sudden they weregetting the blame anyway.
Then you get this hugetombstone with the voice of John
Hurt and you know, don't die ofignorance.
James (32:46):
It was like a bit of an advert for a horror film, and
you provided that home for Iguess home in the sense of
loving embrace for a lot ofpeople.
Jill (32:58):
Well, I would like to think that, but the gay
community as well, you know,yeah, the gay community did not
sit still.
No, I mean the gay communitystepped up to this.
James (33:09):
And I don't think about what that what that what that
looked like, what that means.
Jill (33:12):
It properly looked like we are not gonna sit down and take
this, you know, and I and I andI've said this before, and I
know that this what we'retalking about particularly is is
LGBTQ plus history.
But I I don't think thateverything would be where it is
today in terms of the umtreatments for HIV, for the way
(33:36):
that it's uh dealt with inhospitals, for the the way that
funerals are even today, whenthey're celebrations of lives.
I went so recently, the the daybefore yesterday, to David
Raven's funeral in London, a gayicon, you know, and it was an
absolute celebration.
And that's the whole influenceof the gay community on HIV and
(33:59):
AIDS stepped up and changed alot of things.
The way people were treated inhospital, um, as a as a
holistic, you know, peoplebecause the doctors and nurses
involved in it were the peoplethat had a liberal mind that
they wanted to be out there.
So the whole thing cametogether because certainly I
(34:20):
believe in London because of thegay community, and that's a
whole gay community, gay men andlesbian and and trans, and
everybody who was part andparcel of that community.
There were help groups, therewas advice, there was um
information at the hospitals,there was information about safe
sex, there was uh informationabout speaking about sex the way
(34:44):
it was, no euphemisms, youknow, because gay gay men were
used to saying it as it is in away, you know, and and making
clear what you had to do, getuse a condom, what sort of sex
you were having, what was highrisk, all knowledge that was
coming out at the time, but itwas made as plain and simple as
it could be for people to helpthemselves when outside of that
(35:08):
people were not helping.
Jonathan (35:09):
But you didn't stand still either?
Jill (35:11):
I tried not to.
Jonathan (35:12):
Because you um were really the driving force behind
West End Cares.
Jill (35:18):
Yes.
Jonathan (35:19):
And I'd love to hear that story, and I'd particularly
share it in In Love from theThink Press, but I'd love to
hear about that first show andhow you got it up and all of the
people and all of that.
Jill (35:29):
Honestly, it was an amazing thing.
It was an amazing thing to bepart of, and I I think people
that because it carried on formany years, West End Cares, and
then it became theatre mad.
But initially, it was set uppurely by um a small group of us
at Le Miserab.
Me, Anthony Lynn, SeanCarrison, Jay Alexander, who was
also at Crazy for You, DursleyMcClindon, who was HIV positive,
(35:53):
and well, was was had actuallyhad eight, so he was sick, but
he was still he was in Phantomof the Opera.
But we made a committee in LeMiserab, and to cut a long story
short, we had a meeting on aSaturday morning before the
matinee, and we could so we'regoing to plan regular meetings
to see how we could fundraise.
And the idea was that we wouldwe would fundraise based on a
(36:15):
Broadway Care's Equity FightAIDS idea, because they were a
step ahead of us in a number ofcases, a number of people that
had died, they were devastatedon Broadway by the number of
young gay men and older gay menthat had died or were dying, and
so we were following veryquickly on the heels of this,
(36:36):
and we did the uh it do you knowwhat?
When you're stuck and you thinkI can't do anything, then you
find some way, make yourselffeel better to get something
happening, and it gave us greatenergy, plus we were young, plus
we were in the West End, it wasa massive community, still is a
massive community.
We found we all actually walkedthe streets to find a venue
(37:00):
that would be happy to put on alate-night show.
And we found Smiths in CoventGarden, which is now a clothes
shop, I think, on the corner ofLongacre.
And we found that that was a arestaurant with the downstairs,
they were very helpful.
I mean, we overran that placewith ideas and stage and
lightings and everything that'scoming in, you know, and had to
(37:22):
be got together very quicklyafter a show.
Um to to, once we had the idea,anyway, anyone could do
anything they liked.
It was party pieces initially,it was ideas from shows, what we
might do as a cabaret, and LesMiserables put together the very
first cabaret, and we took itvery seriously.
So we had very we had someitems that were very moving.
(37:44):
I mean, we were in the showthat was so you know um anthemic
anyway.
So we were it's all singing, itwas it was singing or pieces of
poetry or readings or things,and anyway, we put together a
cabaret, and it was the firstone, so and of course we were
the longest running show in timelength of the show.
Jonathan (38:03):
I mean, it's a long show, so we didn't show it's
long and long and long.
Jill (38:08):
We didn't come down till 10 to 11.
10 to 11.
So we had to then we wanted togo up at a half eleven, quarter
to twelve, otherwise peoplearen't gonna hang around the
West End all night waiting forthe show.
So we had everything geared upto go.
And uh Bob West, our companymanager, or West End company
manager, had all the technicalside ready to go, and we went in
(38:28):
there to set up.
We'd done a sound check earlierin the day, in the morning
before the matinee.
Race down to there.
James (38:35):
And we were literally running, we were truly running a
main show and then late-nightcabaret, and that's how it went,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jill (38:42):
Or for the rehearsal day, but on the Monday we'd only done
the the main show.
Yeah, but when we had the whenwe did the meetings, then we had
the matinees.
We did them on all differentdays, but we decided that we
would do a month of Monday nightcabarets, and that seemed to be
the best way to do it.
That was the night that Smith'srestaurant could accommodate
(39:02):
us.
We'll see how the first fourwent, then we'd have a month
off, then we'd try and doanother four, and that's how we
did it.
And we moved from Smith's, andwhen they got fed up of us, we
moved to centre stage and wemoved to the conult rooms.
We found various places, and wedid late-night cabarets, and
then actual shows would put on alate-night performance, and we
took the takings from that withthe management of the shows.
(39:25):
So we had, and I've said thisbefore, but we have an inbuilt
source of people paying money tobe entertained in West End
shows.
I mean, it's all there.
So, you know, and people inlong runs, they like to do
something different.
Yeah, they like to feel theywere helping.
Most people wanted to help.
James (39:43):
Um and most people have been affected in some way.
Jill (39:46):
At that point, it looked terrifying.
James (39:48):
Yeah.
Jill (39:48):
So people were absolutely scared of losing their friends
or their families.
Yeah.
To uh it was certainly withinour community.
Later on, it became a littlebit more shall we make this a
bit more communal.
And raise money for otherthings as well, because not
everyone's affected by HIV andAIDS.
And initially, if people askedus that, we would say, well,
that's absolutely fine.
We will support you if you wantto do something for another
(40:11):
charity.
Of course we will, but we arefundraising for this.
But later on, of course, wediversified.
James (40:18):
And was and was it fundraising?
What what were you, I guess,what were you fundraising for?
But also was it, was it, werewere you, was it activism?
Obviously it was activism, butwe were you aiming to get policy
change?
Jill (40:28):
It's a good idea.
It's a good question you'veasked me because we were
fundraising for um not theTerence Higgins Trust, but
Crusade.
And Crusade ran the hardshipfund where the money went
directly to people strugglingwith HIV mates and into
research.
So that's where we decided,because Crusade had done an
(40:49):
event, a one-off event, under atitle West End Cares.
So we rang them to ask if wecould use it and take it
forward, and they were quitethrilled with that.
So what we did was wephysically raised the money and
we handed it over to Crusadevery often in buckets of cash.
I know it you not, becausethere was nothing so
sophisticated as there is now.
(41:09):
And when I was doing Oliver inthe West End, we did a bucket
collection, that's the otherthing we would do.
We would announce at the end ofthe show, and we would do a
bucket collection, and in thatshow was Jim Dale, who some
people will remember from theold carry-on films, and he was a
great performer, singer, songand dance man, still, you know,
still is a good performer, buthe had had a very sad story of
(41:33):
losing his daughter fromleukemia.
And so we said with our bucketcollection, Palladium Theatre,
it's a big theatre, we'll go50-50 if you if you're willing
to do the curtain speech, and wecan do 50-50 for leukemia, HIV
and AIDS.
And um, he did a beautifulspeech every day for um uh I
(41:56):
think it was a week or maybe twoweeks.
We raised a lot of money,bucket collection, and we
counted every penny of that indressing room E and we split it
and we carried all the money inbuckets round the corner to the
bank and banked it in the bank.
Truly, and we would comebetween shows with another load
of money to bank in the bank.
(42:17):
Oh my god, the bank would seeus coming in.
And then eventually Crusade gotsome counting machines and we
could do the bucket collections,collect them all the money in
cars, go around and put itthrough the counting machines.
But we didn't have that then,we just had teams of people
actually counting.
And after our cab rays, thatwas brilliant because we had it
was so grassroots, you know, itwas so it's so so like um a
(42:39):
village hall kind of feelbecause they would phone up to
Le Mise, phone up the stagedoor, say can I have two tickets
for the cabray?
We had a seating plan, tickingthem off because we got this
number of people in that tablesold out, you know.
Keep this table.
Yeah, somebody saw um a manwith grey hair and a beard at
the the door of our firstcabinet and went, Oh my god,
it's Stephen Sondheim, and thenwe haven't got Stephen Sondover
(43:01):
table.
So we're going, oh my god, cansomebody get it wasn't Stephen
Sondium at all?
Somebody give Stephen Sondheima seat.
James (43:12):
This feels like you know, getting raising all this cash,
um, getting, I guess, normaltheatre goers, people that
weren't in the other speechcommunity, or that weren't
feeling directly affected.
How did that change because youknow, from being very isolated,
feeling that this is a veryisolating condition, that
society has isolated thiscommunity to then getting a
(43:34):
broader community of people tosupport.
How did that change yourmindset and say, yeah, we're
doing something?
Jill (43:40):
Well, as soon as you start putting money in the bank, you
feel like you're doingsomething.
Because we used to have thiscrusade account, which I think I
can't remember which bank itwas in now, but we used to have
a bit walk between shows and doyou certainly feel a sense of
achievement once you startputting some money in.
And once the money started toget a lot bigger, like through
things like that.
But you could also have peopleinitially could be quite
(44:01):
affronted by the fact that wewere raising for HIV and AIDS.
Right.
So you would find that youmight do better if you were
doing children in need for abucket collection.
You know, the the cat the theamount of money you might raise
for children in need, nothingwrong with that, of course.
But that was something thatwould grip the whole nation.
Whereas you'd have certainsections of society who
certainly wouldn't put money inthe bucket for AIDS.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Right.
Jill (44:24):
So you you did have that.
But nevertheless, you've got anaudience of thousands of people
sometimes.
And so you're going to get somemoney.
Yeah.
You're not going to find thateverybody, and when you have
somebody like Jim Dale, forinstance, doing a beautiful
speech about his own charity aswell, sometimes that, you know,
would made people think, okay, Iguess you think it's one
(44:45):
disease, it's another disease.
The the human feeling behindthat is the same.
Jonathan (44:49):
But and thinking about Limiz for a second, um, because
you mentioned it beinganthemic.
Empty chairs and empty tables.
Very much uh adopted by theLGBT community in the kind of
80s and 90s as a symbol of thatcrisis.
Is that something you wereaware of being in the show at
(45:09):
that time?
Jill (45:10):
Oh, I think so.
I think you can't avoid allthose tragic, all those
tragedies uh, you know, andbeautiful lyrics.
And I mean they became obvious,you know, God on high, all
those things, and bring himhome, all our beautiful songs.
And the Kiss of the SpiderWoman was up the road, and they
had Um Tomorrow We'll Be Free.
(45:31):
Yeah, if not if not tomorrow,then the day after that, and
Liza Minnelli sang that for umthe gay men's chorus in the
States, and that became ananthem over there.
So there was a lot of thatusing the music and and using
it.
I thought probably I don't knowto say if that's the first time
all that was done, but I Ithink it probably was, you know.
(45:52):
And when my friend died, myfriend Juan died in in Paris,
the French cast of LesMiserables sang.
Hear the people sing at hisfuneral, and so they became like
those those celebrations oflife with amazing music and all
of that.
James (46:08):
And and you spent quite a bit of time in Paris with Juan.
Jill (46:10):
I tried to, yeah, definitely.
I tried to.
James (46:13):
That gave you almost a unique perspective of how other
countries were looking at HIV.
Jill (46:20):
Well, he came back and forth to London quite a bit
because and nothing wrong withthe medical treatment in Paris,
nothing wrong.
But but the centre, it seemedlike the centre of the
inspiration of the gay communitywas much stronger in London.
James (46:35):
Okay.
Jill (46:36):
And that may be because it hadn't quite because London,
the theatre community, wasfollowing San Francisco and New
York with a number ofinfections, right?
And Paris would not have had somany infections.
So not so much new information.
And so it's a different, adifferent country with a
different community.
Because the big theatrecommunities, we have these big
(46:57):
theatre communities in New Yorkand London, and they don't
they're not really the same inother countries.
Of course, they've got theatreand talent and art in abundance,
but we have this kind ofcommercial theatre that happens
in New York and and and London,and and it was big.
Jonathan (47:12):
Yeah.
Jill (47:12):
So you had a lot of people affected, and that's the the
nub of it, really.
Jonathan (47:17):
And we should briefly talk about David Raven, whose
funeral record is that.
Um and for anyone who may notknow David Raven's personality,
drag personality was MaisieTrollette.
And I think Maisie Trollettewas the oldest working drag
queen up until he was nice yearsago.
Jill (47:35):
Well, even the the last time he did his he sang was on
his 90th birthday celebration atthe Dome in Brighton, and he
did an amazing job of sitting ona high chair and singing if I
never sing another song, andreally very emotional for the
audience uh and amazing.
So he he was until he died lastweek, well the week before last
(47:59):
of the funeral was this week.
Um, he was the oldest workingdrag queen in the world.
There was an American guy whowould they did this um Netflix
series.
Jonathan (48:08):
I saw that.
Jill (48:09):
That that guy uh I I can't remember his drag name, that
guy, but he passed away a whileback leaving David Raven, who
would always be David Raven theman and Maisie Trollett the drug
artist.
Yes.
Jonathan (48:22):
But then you and you never crossed the gentleman.
Jill (48:24):
Never crossed the two.
No, no.
He would go, who, who?
If you called him Maisie and hewas dressed uh in his ordinary
clothes, he would like no.
So um, big friend of mine,beautiful man, loved sat at the
table at the Pink Palace.
Uh quite a few times, you know,he was around he was anything
if not supportive to everybody.
(48:45):
And he was a brilliant,brilliant performer in his own
right.
And the iconic thing aboutDavid was that he became a drug
artiste uh through the 60s.
It was all under cover, youknow.
He was stigmatized simply forbeing a gay man, and he had to
keep that in his own world, andso he's grown up with all of
(49:07):
that.
He's never been anything buthimself.
He's always been himself.
He knew himself as hediscovered himself.
Obviously, he didn't know froma little boy, but he knew who he
was, who he wanted to be, andhe lived his life properly
trailblazing.
And and I'm very honoured tohave known him.
He was an amazing person and ahuge supporter, a lover of the
(49:28):
theatre, a lover of peoplearound him.
Goodness knows what Brightonwill do without him, because he
was a centre of a community inBrighton, which is a great
community, a great gaycommunity, but it's sadly
missing David Raven.
Jonathan (49:45):
In the opening to Love from the Pink Palace, Russell
T.
Davies calls you a hero.
Do you recognise that inyourself?
Jill (49:54):
No, I don't know.
And Russell Russell loves me, Iknow he loves me, I love him.
But um listen, there's allsorts of people doing heroic
things.
I mean, what is it?
I don't know.
I don't recognise that inmyself, no.
I I to recognise it in otherpeople that I see going, you
know, in war zones and you knowthat that kind of that that kind
(50:18):
of thing which creates terrorin you on a daily basis.
I mean, we yes, we did.
We didn't we took it as our itwas our life, we had to do
something with the way our lifewas.
Um and I'm honoured that SamJack Russell even says lovely
things about me, which I know hedoes.
And um but there's a lot ofpeople out there doing stuff,
(50:40):
and and I'm one of I've beengiven this platform, which is
amazing, and that's that's anhonour, and I try to do this,
and that's why I wanted to speakwith you guys.
You guys guys are great, andyou're trying to do this
project, which is amazing, andI'm thrilled to be part of it,
you know.
It's it's a great thing, andpeople should know their
history, they should know what'sgone on, and um and a few
(51:02):
things that I've done in insimilar veins, not quite the
same as yours, but there arepeople now in the gay community
being aware that you know thingswill go missing.
And there's a lady up inScotland who was collecting work
by gay people that um work thathas been written under
pseudonyms, people not admittingthey were gay.
(51:23):
Lavender Menace has just cometo me.
And that that's an amazing umwork as well, trying to make
sure the written work, is thiswritten by a gay person?
Is this meant to be a gayrelationship veiled, you know?
So there's a lot of stuff outthere, and it's a great time to
be finding that that history.
James (51:42):
And that's that's why we're so motivated to do this
podcast because we all need tolearn from history.
Jill (51:50):
Yes.
James (51:50):
And now do we ever well, this is the thing, and so and so
you know, there are plenty ofuh LGBTQ people now in positions
of authority, responsibility,decision making that that didn't
live through the uh age crisis,that didn't that didn't
experience this discrimination,that have grown up in a world,
you know, in many respects,extremely privileged, to have
(52:13):
grown up in a world based on theactivism of people like you and
others that have made our livesinfinitely better.
But it's very easy to forgetthat that happened.
And so, what is your messagefor the next generation, for for
people growing up now aboutwhere society goes and how we
can shape change?
Jill (52:34):
Well, I th I think everybody wants their own chance
in life, don't they?
I mean, if I have a message, itwould be to take time to think
where where we stand.
I mean, I take time to think,not about the where we stand on
the where the gay communitiescome, because that's for the
next generation to think wherethey are.
But I think our parents, youknow, we've lived without a war.
(52:54):
We've lived without war on ourshores.
I mean, you know, there'sthere's people who've changed
the world in every direction.
I'm a woman on the shoulders ofpeople who've allowed me to
have a vote.
unknown (53:06):
Yes.
Jill (53:06):
So it's take time out to learn because you'll find
something interesting.
Time to to think where we aretoday because of people that
came before us.
Because we all carry that withus in every shape or form.
So, you know, try not toforget, I would say.
James (53:21):
Yeah.
Jill (53:22):
Because life is short.
Try and make a difference, tryand let everybody have their
life and for goodness sake, stoptrying to stop people being
themselves.
James (53:31):
Do you think seeing what's happening in in America
at the moment with the USadministration and and
elsewhere, do you do you thinkthere's a huge danger that we're
gonna go backwards quite a longway?
And what do we need to do aboutthat?
Jill (53:46):
Do we have another three hours?
I mean, how do we even knowwhere how do we even know where
this is going?
You know, this is we we live inscary times because I don't
think we quite know where we'regoing.
And and I feel like, you know,again, people are being um
prevented from being themselves,and it's gradually coming
(54:06):
around to think, okay, peoplehaven't maybe lived through
this.
What I what I hate is when yousee people who haven't lived
through various experiences, youknow, war being being a big
one, then joining on to maybe,you know, doing the salutes, the
I don't know even if I can sayit, but the Nazi salutes and and
(54:27):
all that kind of thing, and nothaving any idea, maybe what
that felt like, you know, andyou know, wanting to make a
point, but riding on the back ofsuch pain that has been caused
for people.
Yeah that I think if if wecould only look at the things
that have why should we try tocause pain for people?
That's what I I really don'tunderstand.
Speaker 4 (54:47):
Yeah.
Jill (54:48):
Because what what people decide to do, yeah, have your
left wing or right wing views.
That's fine, you can have yourviews, but when you're actively
causing other people to not ableto live their life, why would
you do that?
Why would that be a good idea?
James (55:03):
And it feels like that's one of the key lessons of of the
decades that you've livedthrough is don't forget your
activism, don't forget where youcame from, don't forget that
rights can move forwards andbackwards, and we've got to keep
that pressure.
Jill (55:18):
Why can't we just try to make people's lives easier
instead of making them harder?
Why should you say you can't dothis or you can't do that?
Or, you know, so so I don'tknow, so people feel fear and
then it can't be good.
It can't be good.
You can't you can't achieveyour life in its full potential.
It's hard enough anyway, isn'tit?
To to find our place, toachieve, to do what we need to
(55:39):
do.
But if you feel fear, you can'texpress yourself.
If you can't get an education,if you're in certain countries,
if you can't even be legal, ifyou're a gay man in certain
countries, you can't even beallowed to study if you're a
woman or a young girl in certaincountries.
How can you have your life toits full potential?
And and also benefit yourcommunity, ultimately, the
(56:00):
planet, our species, if part ofit is not being fulfilled.
James (56:06):
Yeah, it's an incredible message, and I and I have such
admiration for your activism,for your heroism, for and and
and you know, I know that youwere talking earlier that you
believe your OBEs is lots ofpeople's efforts.
And of course that's right, butyour efforts, your incredible
um work, the support,fundraising.
Jill (56:28):
Well, I hope that that, having had that honour, and it
is it is because of a lot ofpeople as well, but I hope that
going forward that will uh makeyou know be a good platform for
maybe fundraising and doingstuff like that.
Because it's, you know, havinghaving got something like that,
I I feel like more than I haveto, you know, keep earning that.
James (56:49):
It's incredible that you still have in your belly.
Jill (56:54):
My friend sent me in congratulations.
He went, Congratulations, Jilland all of O B E.
Old but entertaining.
Jonathan (57:03):
Jill, thank you so much for coming today.
Jill (57:05):
It's absolutely my pleasure.
Thank you.
Jonathan (57:07):
It's an absolute honour to have you.
Jill (57:08):
I've enjoyed talking to you both.
Jonathan (57:10):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to theview from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (57:26):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
Intro (00:11):
A group of us in the Gay Liberation Fund hit on the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Speaker (00:20):
Equality, and for some people in Stonewall like me,
equality was kind of like whatyou got to as a starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View from Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
Today we're joined by JillNadler, a tireless HIV AIDS
activist and theatre performerwhose real-life story inspired
(00:49):
the TV programme It's a Sin.
James (00:51):
Today's episode explores themes of crisis, compassion,
and community.
Jill tells us about herchildhood in Wales, her time at
drama school in London,surrounded by gay friends, and
the emerging tragedy as the HIVcrisis unfolded around her.
Jonathan (01:05):
This is an adult podcast exploring an often
difficult period of LGBTQhistory.
And as such, the seriescontains discussions of suicide,
conversion therapy, homophobia,transphobia, drug use, strong
language, and graphic sexualdescriptions.
It also has a lot of joy andlaughs along the way.
Jill (01:52):
Well, I'm thrilled to be here after that.
After that enormously uh hugeintroduction, yes, I'm very
happy to be here.
James (01:59):
So you grew up in Neathan, Wales, and you talk
about a small town upbringingwith open-minded parents.
Yes.
How important was, or how wasthat a juxtaposition?
How how did that change?
Jill (02:11):
You know, I I think that anybody who's lucky enough to
have parents that are quiteliberal and open and can and
accepting.
That's the thing about my mumand dad.
They were very accepting of myfriends and of my life and my
choices, which, although, youknow, when you choose something
like acting and the theatre,that can cause a lot of issues
at home because people want youto, you know, maybe get all your
(02:36):
qualifications, go touniversity, do all that sort of
thing.
Um, and my parents did wantthat, and they wanted me to get
my education, but once I did acertain to my A levels, they
were very liberal in supportingme with what I wanted to do.
So I felt very lucky aboutthat, you know, and they were
very accepting.
They were a bit older, myparents, when when I was born,
(02:58):
than sort of I mean, you'retalking in the 60s, so my
parents, my mum was 37 when shehad me, and I was her first
baby.
So that's quite old as far asyou know, it's it's almost
normal now.
But back in the 60s, that wasan old she was an older mum.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Right.
Jill (03:15):
So I think she'd had a lot of life experience, and so had
my dad before they had children.
So I think that may go towardsbeing more liberal.
Jonathan (03:24):
I mean, I I think one of the reasons why you've just
had an OBE is that you've justbeen the staunch ally and
advocate for our community foryour whole life.
Jill (03:34):
Well, I've got to say the OBE was on the back of many
people.
You know, I have I was honouredenough to get it, but there's a
lot of people behind all thethings that we do, the charity,
the fundraising, the activism.
I was very lucky to get it,let's be fair.
There's a lot of people doingthe groundwork as well.
Jonathan (03:52):
Many shoulders.
Many shoulders, that's theright expression.
I wonder if you can think backto a time in Neath where you
think, actually, that's thefirst time I met a gay person.
Jill (04:04):
I I can completely, because I was in the theatre as
a child and I met some peoplefrom uh the cast of a show,
Godspell.
I went to see Godspell when Iwas in school, and I loved it so
much.
I went to see it like the wholeweek at Swansea Grand Theatre,
and on on the back of seeingthat, I wanted to do everything
(04:24):
that was involved with drama.
So I was about 14 years old.
I became aware, I heard peopletalking and and saying, you
know, uh about being gay, and Ihadn't really understood it, and
perhaps didn't fully understandit then, but but it it became a
very new thing in my in myworld.
(04:45):
I didn't really understand it.
Um, and I thought it was allamazing and exotic, and you
know, it was something sodifferent from Duravail in
comprehensive school.
So it was it was that likethere was a it was part of
theatre, it seemed to me.
James (05:01):
And people were talking about, I guess, being gay, not
in a negative way, whichpresumably is having heard of
it.
Jill (05:07):
They were just talking about so-and-so-and so-and-so
had a boyfriend, and I mean theywere then that that was when
they were talking about a man.
Yeah.
And so that was a new thing tome.
And I thought, I I kind ofliked anything that was a bit
out there, you know.
It was it was exciting to menot to be part of a I I thought
it was more than a small townexistence, although it isn't,
(05:28):
it's a perfectly normal part oflife.
But when you're brought up oneway and you you only really see
certain aspects of life, then itbecomes something very exciting
to me.
The whole theatre, the wholeacting, the whole different
kinds of worlds that people wereliving in.
James (05:44):
And that that was the incredible space, safe space you
had at uh West Glenmorgan YouthTheatre.
Jill (05:50):
Yeah, so that came slightly after my experience of
going to Swansea Grand Theatre,and then I joined the youth
theatre, and then you know,there was there were they
weren't men, they were boys,they were all gay boys, not all,
uh a community of gay boys thatwere dancers and actors, and
and there was a very it was avery safe space.
(06:13):
Somehow we were lucky, I saywe, including myself, because I
had all the fun and the joy ofit.
But the boys were lucky becausethey had somewhere where they
could truly express themselvesand make very good friends as
young teenagers, and I thinkthat's that gave a lot of those
boys, I know it did, give them afriendship group that was a
(06:36):
cushion to the outside worldwhere most people didn't
actually come out so readily totheir parents.
James (06:42):
What what made it such a a sort of open safe space?
Jill (06:46):
I have no idea how to do it.
James (06:49):
We need more of it.
Jill (06:50):
That was the secret.
I I absolutely have no idea howit put the people together that
it did.
But the people that auditionedus initially and put us into, we
had a very um a very good uhhead of drama for the county,
um, a guy by the name of GodfreyEvans, to whom which we all owe
a great debt, you know, justputting people together.
(07:11):
He he must have had a knack andan eye for seeing the people
that have the talent.
Um I'm talking about the boysnow, and and sometimes, you
know, when you're doing thingsin in a school or you're taking
people from schools, you alsoknow people who are having
difficulties and be known to thechildren around you, children
that might be struggling athome, struggling with
(07:33):
self-expression, things likethat.
So I think they they had an eyefor that as well.
And when talent was there andthey could express themselves
through drama, they created asafe space.
And if you can't create a safespace through drama, which I
will say they're cutting allover the country, you know, if
you can't create a safe spacethrough drama, where can you?
(07:53):
Because that is a prime aprimary form of self-expression,
and requires empathy, andrequires empathy and requires uh
a mixture of all all kinds ofthings, but you can feel free
within a scene to expressyourself or write something to
express yourself or improvise,and and all all the time you're
(08:14):
growing and and finding out whoyou are, and the boys were
finding out who they were, and Ithink that's that's primarily
why it was safe.
Jonathan (08:22):
And so you made a journey that actually lots of
gay young gay men make.
You moved from Wales to come toLondon, to come to the big
city, yes, and you know, whileit may not always be London,
often gay men will move from theprovinces to the to the city.
Yes.
What was it like?
Tell us you arrived inPaddington, presumably, and
joyous.
Jill (08:42):
I mean, I arrived in a car, my parents bought me
because I didn't want to bringall my stuff.
But I I came up from myaudition on the train um from my
drama school, which was MountView, which was where I trained.
And so I loved the idea ofLondon anyway.
I love I love it.
I still love it, I still livehere.
I think it's a great city, um,and all that was very exciting.
(09:04):
And I met people, you know,again, it opens your your world.
Again, I mean our youththeatre, which we you feel like
a safe space, drama school ismore competitive, there's more
pressure out there within dramaschools to succeed because you
you know they're training youfor the theatre.
But London was it seemed to bethe place to be.
It is the place to be.
(09:24):
Yeah, it's the centre of theuniverse and then the many ways,
it's sort of the the best city,you know.
James (09:31):
Yeah.
And that's when you not longafter that, you moved into the
Pink Palace.
Jill (09:36):
That's correct.
So so the Pink Palace was a joybecause we had had um some very
dodgy accommodation when youwere looking for your digs or
what you might call somewhere tolive as a student, you know,
student digs.
Because when we came to dramaschool, you didn't have halls of
residence or anything like thatthat you might get in your
university.
There was no cushion for you.
(09:57):
You just had to find somewhereto live and get on with it.
Get yourself to the, you know,where you were called in the
morning to come to classes orwhatever, you you were
responsible entirely foryourself.
Which I think looking back isquite hard now when I think of
myself.
I was only 18.
So, you know, I think when yougo to university that you're
looked after a lot, but we couldhave been anywhere and
(10:18):
anything.
And people that in my dramacollege they uh had spent nights
in hostels and you know,everyone was just on their own.
So, so eventually, you know, wefound some very weird
accommodations and not verynice.
And then Jay, um, my very well,my closest friend in the world,
he found um an advert sayingaccommodation, you know, in in
(10:41):
the Hammond High, which is theHampstead and Highgate Gazette.
This apartment that wasavailable, £80 a week for
people.
That's so cheap, it'sunbelievable.
Even then, it was quite cheap.
James (10:55):
These days it's even outrageously.
Jill (10:57):
Oh my word, it's so cheap.
And so we thought it wasn'tgoing to be up to much, but
we'll have a look anyway becauseit was so reasonable.
And then it was fantastic, itwas so glorious, it was so funny
because it was so pink withpink carpets, dark pink carpets,
darkish pink curtains, pinkfurniture, chandeliers.
It was the most extraordinaryplace, looked sort of the inside
(11:20):
of a very glamorous restaurant.
Um, and so we were laughing.
Of course, it was camp.
Yeah, it was funny, we couldn'tbelieve it.
And so we were just calling it,oh my gosh, like a palace.
And then it became the PinkPalace.
It had no other possible title.
And Russell loved it.
Russell came there, RussellDavis, who subsequently wrote
(11:40):
It's a Sin and and sort of gavethe Pink Palace a place in
history.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah.
Jill (11:46):
Because he put it there.
And people kind of loved thename, but we did, and everyone
would go, oh, come round to thePink Palace and have lunch or
have supper or come to a partyat the Pink Palace.
And that was how it transpired.
But it's just genuinely becauseit was pink, promptly pink.
James (12:02):
The parties just sound legendary.
The neighbors must have hatedyou, but the party sounded
incredible.
Jill (12:07):
I don't know that they seem to have very thick walls
and a very high tolerance.
So I we didn't have any truecomplaints from anybody.
And upstairs, above us, was aband who had a chart it who were
rehearsing.
We could hear them rehearsing,not even very loudly, through
the floor.
And so we were there, they wereabove us, and it seemed to go
(12:27):
along very harmoniously.
Jonathan (12:29):
So I sometimes feel that these happenstance events,
these places, these gatheringsare harder and harder and harder
to find now because things arenow.
I mean, you'd never findanything for £80 a week that it
wasn't cardboard box or abridge.
No.
Um and the Pink, you know, asJames said, the Pink Palace
became famous um through RussellT.
(12:49):
Davis.
It's the same, you've writtenthe most beautiful memoir, Love
from the Pink Palace.
When did Russell approach youfor the first time and say, hey,
I've got this idea?
Jill (12:59):
So that's that's quite interesting because of course
that goes back in my memories.
I'm not 100% sure when the theactual time that he decided, but
he before lockdown and he wastalking about what he wanted to
do was write about the boys.
He thought it was time to writeabout the boys, time to tell
(13:20):
their story.
That's what he wanted to do.
And it grew and grew and becamesomething very different.
No, it didn't become different,it was it still became about
the boys, but then of course itit sort of involved me more than
I thought it was going to.
I mean, let's be fair, I had abig shock when suddenly it was
mentioned on the television, youknow.
(13:40):
So um, and then once they saidJill is a real person, that's
when I yeah sort of led into avery different part of my life,
really.
James (13:50):
Because your your character is central to it's a
which which is right, that's howit that's how it should be
portrayed.
Jill (13:56):
It's amazing how it happened, but I think he wanted
to tell the story of a group offriends because friends were
family, and and that's what weall became because blood family
sometimes were very distant orfeared because of the stigma,
and so we were a family ofourselves, really different
forms, which very often happens.
(14:17):
I mean, I don't think we werehugely unusual.
I think that was happening,still happens for various
reasons, you know, around theworld, things that people go
through, places that you put,and and that time and space, all
of us in London, all of usyoung, became a a little well,
that family is the best word forit, you know, it does the
(14:37):
chosen family.
James (14:39):
And that's and that's that's very much how you you
write it in the book as well.
It's a it's a love story, astory of family, a story of
Yeah, that's nice you say that.
Jill (14:48):
It's very nice you say that because that's what it it
felt like.
It felt like um we werefighting the world out there in
a way, and and they werefighting differently from me.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm fighting on behalfof people that I loved, but they
of course are fighting fortheir lives and fighting not to
be stigmatized, and theirjourney is far, far harder.
(15:09):
Yeah.
And that's where Russell wantedto tell their story, you know.
Jonathan (15:12):
So let's let's move to the world out there.
When was the first time thatyou heard whispers of this
disease affecting gay men?
Jill (15:22):
Well, I the yes, I mean those things are they they
dribble through yourconsciousness.
Do you know what I mean?
You you don't you don't reallyclock it.
I heard I I saw this littlearticle in Pineapple the Dance
Place.
I'd gone for a a a class, anexercise class, and there was a
uh newspaper in the cafe, and Iwas just picking it up and
reading it, and there was asmall article in that about a
(15:42):
gay flu, which said that some uhyou know gay men had got this
illness, which it was like aflu-like illness, that's what it
was written as, which I canonly think was symptomatic of
you know the infection at thetime, but not the actual uh it
was not called HIV or AIDS, itwas just called this illness.
And then I clocked it andthought that's a very um weird
(16:04):
way to write about an illness,gay.
Gay flu, I think it said, andinverted commas.
And then I heard some peoplemaking some horrible comments
about gay men in um a wine barin um I think it was Mayfair
area, while I was doingsomething or seeing someone
doing a cabaret, and I heardsome very nasty comments about
some people who've been inAmerica and say gay men were
(16:26):
spreading a disease.
Something like that comments.
It is a gradual drip feed,really, before you started
seeing that people in Americathat knew people who knew
people, someone had actuallydied, and then it became more
and more, oh my goodness, whatis it?
And then rumors started.
So I'd say over from the early80s to the mid-80s, it became uh
(16:48):
something really fearful.
Yeah.
And then it began, and I can'ttell say off the top of my head
now the date that I noticed thatit was, you know, it became HIV
AIDS because it was linked to avirus, then it was linked to
how it spread, then it waslinked to certain behaviours,
and then it was finally linkedto blood, you know, just in into
(17:09):
your bloodstream in some way,and eventually it was linked to
you know, um drug users, bloodtransfusions, various forms of
sexual behaviour, all that kindof thing.
So it's it grew and grew andgrew.
You know, if you think ofCOVID, I mean we had much more
information available.
So COVID, we knew quicker whatwas going on, and obviously with
(17:32):
much more tolerance, but it wasa slower feed with HIV.
You couldn't find outinformation.
James (17:37):
Is that because is that because the government thought
it's a gay disease, we won't wedon't need to worry about it.
Jill (17:42):
I was sure that there was something of that.
I'm quite sure that initiallythat's part and parcel of it's
segregated to gay men, yeah, Ivydrug users, you know, uh uh uh
in Haiti, kind of communitieswhere people are not given the
same depth of care.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Yeah.
Jill (18:03):
And horribly so, but I think that was the truth at the
time.
Um sex workers, you know, so itbecomes like a subculture and
people are being, you know,blamed instead of cared for.
And the blame was the was thething that really I think I I s
I imagine if you are an IV druguser, you're already feeling
(18:28):
pretty battered by society in away.
And then then gay men adding tothat, and then sex workers,
everybody that already mighthave felt bad about something in
their in their life.
And I'm not saying they shouldhave or anything like that.
James (18:43):
I'm just saying, and I'm not saying that all crumpled
down.
Jill (18:47):
That's a great way of putting it, but I'm not saying
that all sex workers, some youknow, people have choices, but
still there is a stigma to allof those things.
Jonathan (18:56):
Yeah, those in those furly day early days it was the
four H's, so homosexuals,hemophiliacs, um heroin users,
and Haitians.
Jill (19:05):
Yes, yes.
Jonathan (19:06):
Um and it was when it it was when it kind of came into
Haitians that everyone waslike, hold on, this is this
seems to not be fitting our Youknow what I mean.
Jill (19:14):
It was so strange the way the way that that evolved.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it it becameum there was an innocent group
of people that caught it, uhpassed it on, or whatever, that
was seen as unfortunate,innocent victims and people who
seemed you're the people toblame.
And that's really uh I meanit's a virus at the end of the
(19:37):
day and it's it'sindiscriminate.
Right.
And so instead of which you youwould always feel like those
groups that were slight were nomuch more affected in the early
days, instead of seeing them asa beacon of hope and caring for
them and preparing where thiscould go, they were stigmatized
and blamed.
James (19:57):
And was and was there a sense of incredulity that this
could Only be a virus thatsomehow attacks very unique
specific sections of thepopulation.
Jill (20:07):
I mean how how is how can that be?
And and if you're not medicallytrained in any way, then you
you can't even understand thatinitially.
James (20:15):
Well, because our medical understanding now is obviously
better, but but we still hadvery good medical understanding
then.
It wasn't like we were at thebeginning times of understanding
medicine.
Jill (20:26):
No, I but I think it's it's when any new illness is out
there, or any new disease orvirus or bacteria, then then
medical science will justscience will always just look
for the truth.
Science is always justresearching.
So and they have to go throughthose processes of how is this
happening?
What is this?
Because I heard a veryinteresting piece of television
(20:49):
it was with a woman who, and Ibelieve it was a woman, who
flagged up the fact that she wasshe was in control of a drug
called septurin, and the drugwas used to treat various forms
of pneumocystis pneumonia, andso and that was unusual.
It was a it was a I think youhad to, you know, ask for the
drug, it had to be whateverchannels they went through in
(21:11):
the States, they had to be, youknow, get hold of the drug
because it wasn't commoneverywhere, everywhere all the
time.
Certainly pneumocystis wasn't.
So when the and it was her, Ithink her journey, uh story is
quite incredible because sheheard that she flagged it up for
a 21-year-old man in SanFrancisco, and she noted that
(21:32):
that was unusual.
Well, within a few weeks, ofcourse, she'd had that about
three or four times.
So she flagged up the unusualthing that was happening, and
then that became known toscience, to medicine, because it
has to start somewhere.
You have to notice thatsomething is not is out of the
norm to flag up that why is thisgoing on?
(21:53):
And then it transpired thatthese were gay men, and then the
rumors began.
But she did a good thing, shewas flagging up we have a
there's something going onhealth-wise here, and so she was
doing a very and I thought thatwas quite fascinating.
Jonathan (22:07):
And when was the first time it came crashing into your
world, your immediate world?
When when did it hit the pigpalette?
Jill (22:13):
Yeah, well, well, that was in drama school, really.
That was when I was in dramaschool.
So you're talking uh it wastowards the end of our time, so
early 80s, when one of our boys,not one of my closest, closest
friends, but one of the boysthat I was in a group with in
drama school got sick.
And then, of course, he wasagain quite secretive.
(22:34):
So we only heard rumours.
Oh, he's and we had been inAmerica, we had done a tour in
America.
So there was always this thingabout the danger of Americans,
because Americans, I know, it iscrazy.
But it is, it was it was said,you know, it's all right to go
and and maybe meet up withsomeone for a uh a fun night
(22:55):
out, but careful if it's anAmerican, because you know that
this seemed to be another stigmathat poor America were getting,
you know.
James (23:03):
Um but the virus, I suppose, was in circulation more
than it was.
Jill (23:08):
Certainly San Francisco and certainly in New York City,
where where like London, youknow, things it was far more
prevalent in London than it wasin, you know, Purguing.
But it's um so so that was uhthat was uh my first real
encounter as one of our friends,and he didn't live very long.
(23:29):
He died very, very quickly.
And within my own group of mypeople that I loved and were my
close family friends, it was themid-80s when my friend Juan
he's amazing when my friend Juanphoned me to tell me that he
was positive and he'd had he hehad had um an illness, he had
(23:54):
something that we call now aseroconversion, and he had had
that and he'd fallen very sickfor a couple of weeks, didn't
know why.
And then subsequently I th Iprobably think about nine months
later, he was then diagnosed.
So he didn't he put it on theback burner, you know, because
because you could have thisinfection, your immune system
made a very dramatic response,but you could then feel well for
(24:17):
quite a while before thegradual deterioration of your
immune system.
It's a very complicated diseaseof which I'm not medical, but I
grew to have an uh anunderstanding of.
James (24:29):
Yeah.
And part of the challenge wastesting.
Jill (24:33):
Part of the challenge was testing.
I mean, there was no same-daytesting, there was nothing like
that.
You could go and get tested,then you'd wait weeks and weeks
and weeks, up to six weeks for aresult.
You could spread it in thattime.
unknown (24:46):
Yeah.
Jill (24:47):
If you didn't have any protection, people were not even
thinking of protected sex.
So you didn't know whether youwere positive or all those
people that you you know, it's ait's a promiscuous world.
It's young men out therelooking for sex.
People have sex, they have fun.
So that's the way it goes.
In that six weeks, you can havequite a few encounters, you can
(25:09):
spread it, you can, you know,catch it from somebody who
doesn't know they've got it.
So it's a conundrum, it was areal um fear and a whole what do
you call cauldron of confusionand fear.
James (25:22):
And then in terms of the availability of testing, and
something that I don't reallyunderstand is how the testing
system got off the ground in thefirst place, and you know,
because there was obviously a avery slow response from
governments across the world.
Yes.
Um but then at some pointtesting became something you
could get, albeit long waittimes and presumably a lot of
(25:45):
stigma for getting a test in thefirst place.
Jill (25:47):
I think what happened initially was you had to look
for antibodies in the blood.
You didn't you could not justsay you had because now they can
DNA test the virus, part viralparticles, and they can do the
um like they like people werecaught, you know, kick testing
for the virus with COVID.
Yeah, they but they couldn't dothat initially, they didn't
have the PCR tests and thingslike that to work on it to know
(26:11):
quick enough.
So they had to wait for you asa sick person to produce enough
antibodies to be to be measuredin the blood.
So day two after your initialinfection, you don't have that.
So that's why people didn'tknow for many weeks.
So then they go to be tested,then it'd have to get sent away,
and I don't know whereeverything went.
And then you could payeventually for a same-day
(26:35):
testing, which is much likeprivate health care.
You can go to a clinic, and bythe end of the day, they could
tell you if you had anyantibodies to HIV, but they
still couldn't tell you.
Yeah, it's still not tellingyou about the viral part.
James (26:46):
And that's still some time after exposure.
Jill (26:48):
Yeah, yeah.
James (26:48):
And you talk about your friend Jade did that, he paid
for the same day result.
Jill (26:54):
Went.
I have no idea, but we went toa clinic somewhere in Regents
Park.
Must be near Harley Street orsomething, but they said they
were doing same-day testing.
You'd get information out ofthe small amount of gay press
that was around, you know, orthe s or the helplines, you
know, gay switchboard and thatsort of thing.
Anyway, I don't know how wefound out about it with the
same-day clinic.
It is nerve-wracking, and youit is now when you think of
(27:17):
anything.
As you get older, you becomemore aware that you might have
to have a test for this and atest for that.
And you know what that is withhealth.
Anyone who's waiting forhorrible news, you know, waiting
for that, that's what it waslike.
It was ultra horrible newsbecause if you were told, then
it was a death sentence.
So sometimes when you are goingfor today's horrible news, you
(27:39):
might have something, but itmight not be a death sentence,
it might be something, yes,life-limiting, but not
necessarily.
So you're going to have news,bad news, worse news, but there
was no doubt that it was a deathsentence.
And there was all that thatwent with it.
I've got to tell my family,I've got to, you know.
And we we were in our earlytwenties.
Jonathan (27:59):
And these were people who had to tell their family who
maybe hadn't even come out totheir family.
Jill (28:04):
Hadn't come out.
I mean, I don't think at thatpoint any of my friendship group
would come out to their family,maybe to their siblings, but
certainly not to their parents.
But that went on a long timebefore people came out to their
parents.
James (28:17):
And he used the phrase going home.
Jill (28:19):
Which Russell used that in it's a sin.
And that was a phrase.
And it was it wasn't in itwasn't given the same context as
as you give it now, because youyou now see it with hindsight
of that phrase.
But you know, people have gonehome always gone home, but you
know, you didn't know if theywere sick, you didn't know if
you'd see them again.
There was another boy in in thecast of West Side Story who
(28:41):
also disappeared, you know, andyou think, where is he?
He hasn't come in.
You know, not not from thecast.
The show had closed, but heused to come into the piano bar
or to Madame Jojo's and okay,where where is he?
He's not here.
Oh, he's gone home.
He's living in Canada.
Oh, okay, that's you know, soso again it was a mystery,
everything was shrouded in oh, Idon't know what what would be
(29:06):
the uh a bad enough word in myheart to describe it.
It was almost like um anisolation, but it a stigmatized
isolation.
Do you know what I mean?
Jonathan (29:18):
I find that um expression going home very
poignant because it it'shorrible, but what it also
presupposes that there is thatthere was a home to go to.
Jill (29:29):
Well, yes.
Jonathan (29:30):
You know, I so I so full disclosure to the nine or
each other a little bit.
Um I'm Jamaica and I grew up inJamaica and I was extremely
lucky with the family that Ihad.
I could say I'm going home.
But people ask me thatquestion, oh, when are you going
home?
And they mean Jamaica.
Yes.
And I say that is the questionof someone who whose home still
(29:53):
wants them.
Yes.
So I gr you know, Jamaica isstill a society where it's still
illegal to be gay.
Um and it's it's challenging tobe publicly gay in Jamaica.
More than challenging.
That's a that's a ridiculousdifference.
unknown (30:06):
Yes.
Jonathan (30:07):
So home is for me here.
Yes.
You know, I am Jamaican and Ihave Jamaican history, but home
is here because it's where I wasable to be who I am.
And I think one of theremarkable things about the
story that you share is that youprovided a home for all these
people.
Um, gonna get emotional Do youf do you recognize that?
Jill (30:33):
Well, uh it's the first time that's been said, and and
it's it's so interesting to hearyou say it when you come from
somewhere that you can't beyourself a hundred percent.
And it's very interestingbecause when we used that phrase
going home, and I Russell usedit in It's a Sin, it was going
home to hide, and it was goinghome because the families very
(30:53):
often felt shame and they didn'twant that known, so they were
not going home to the comfort.
Sometimes, of course, peoplewere, sometimes people were, but
many times people were goinghome to be hidden away, to be
put in the back room, and andyou know, because people
couldn't cope with it, and andthey didn't want friends and
neighbours and that knowing thatsomebody had AIDS because it
(31:16):
was was called AIDS then.
Now we say HIV and you say HIVpositive, and that the the words
HIV positive and combinationtherapy and everything inspires
the idea that you have amanageable condition, which it
is, then AIDS was the word thatmeant hide away.
And so they went home with a acloud over them.
(31:39):
They didn't go home to betreated, you know, l mm, of
course, lovingly by parents thatwere tolerant, of course, but
maybe very often pretend they'vegot cancer, don't say anything,
you know, all of that kind ofthing.
Because a lot of peoplepretended they had cancer.
James (31:55):
And and that stigma, of course, was partly created by
the government at the time, withthe the adverts.
Jill (32:01):
Yes, I mean, you know, and I think everything was done,
sometimes done with an intentionthat wasn't bad, but then it
got twisted by everythingbecause because instead of the
that horrible ad campaign thatI've talked about where it says,
you know, um don't die ofignorance.
That it wasn't done it was doneto create people's fear to make
(32:24):
them, you know, look afterthemselves, to be careful, to
not catch it if they didn't needto.
But what what it did was makepeople more frightened of gay
men.
That's why it became morestigmatized for gay men, because
all of a sudden they weregetting the blame anyway.
Then you get this hugetombstone with the voice of John
Hurt and you know, don't die ofignorance.
James (32:46):
It was like a bit of an advert for a horror film, and
you provided that home for Iguess home in the sense of
loving embrace for a lot ofpeople.
Jill (32:58):
Well, I would like to think that, but the gay
community as well, you know,yeah, the gay community did not
sit still.
No, I mean the gay communitystepped up to this.
James (33:09):
And I don't think about what that what that what that
looked like, what that means.
Jill (33:12):
It properly looked like we are not gonna sit down and take
this, you know, and I and I andI've said this before, and I
know that this what we'retalking about particularly is is
LGBTQ plus history.
But I I don't think thateverything would be where it is
today in terms of the umtreatments for HIV, for the way
(33:36):
that it's uh dealt with inhospitals, for the the way that
funerals are even today, whenthey're celebrations of lives.
I went so recently, the the daybefore yesterday, to David
Raven's funeral in London, a gayicon, you know, and it was an
absolute celebration.
And that's the whole influenceof the gay community on HIV and
(33:59):
AIDS stepped up and changed alot of things.
The way people were treated inhospital, um, as a as a
holistic, you know, peoplebecause the doctors and nurses
involved in it were the peoplethat had a liberal mind that
they wanted to be out there.
So the whole thing cametogether because certainly I
(34:20):
believe in London because of thegay community, and that's a
whole gay community, gay men andlesbian and and trans, and
everybody who was part andparcel of that community.
There were help groups, therewas advice, there was um
information at the hospitals,there was information about safe
sex, there was uh informationabout speaking about sex the way
(34:44):
it was, no euphemisms, youknow, because gay gay men were
used to saying it as it is in away, you know, and and making
clear what you had to do, getuse a condom, what sort of sex
you were having, what was highrisk, all knowledge that was
coming out at the time, but itwas made as plain and simple as
it could be for people to helpthemselves when outside of that
(35:08):
people were not helping.
Jonathan (35:09):
But you didn't stand still either?
Jill (35:11):
I tried not to.
Jonathan (35:12):
Because you um were really the driving force behind
West End Cares.
Jill (35:18):
Yes.
Jonathan (35:19):
And I'd love to hear that story, and I'd particularly
share it in In Love from theThink Press, but I'd love to
hear about that first show andhow you got it up and all of the
people and all of that.
Jill (35:29):
Honestly, it was an amazing thing.
It was an amazing thing to bepart of, and I I think people
that because it carried on formany years, West End Cares, and
then it became theatre mad.
But initially, it was set uppurely by um a small group of us
at Le Miserab.
Me, Anthony Lynn, SeanCarrison, Jay Alexander, who was
also at Crazy for You, DursleyMcClindon, who was HIV positive,
(35:53):
and well, was was had actuallyhad eight, so he was sick, but
he was still he was in Phantomof the Opera.
But we made a committee in LeMiserab, and to cut a long story
short, we had a meeting on aSaturday morning before the
matinee, and we could so we'regoing to plan regular meetings
to see how we could fundraise.
And the idea was that we wouldwe would fundraise based on a
(36:15):
Broadway Care's Equity FightAIDS idea, because they were a
step ahead of us in a number ofcases, a number of people that
had died, they were devastatedon Broadway by the number of
young gay men and older gay menthat had died or were dying, and
so we were following veryquickly on the heels of this,
(36:36):
and we did the uh it do you knowwhat?
When you're stuck and you thinkI can't do anything, then you
find some way, make yourselffeel better to get something
happening, and it gave us greatenergy, plus we were young, plus
we were in the West End, it wasa massive community, still is a
massive community.
We found we all actually walkedthe streets to find a venue
(37:00):
that would be happy to put on alate-night show.
And we found Smiths in CoventGarden, which is now a clothes
shop, I think, on the corner ofLongacre.
And we found that that was a arestaurant with the downstairs,
they were very helpful.
I mean, we overran that placewith ideas and stage and
lightings and everything that'scoming in, you know, and had to
(37:22):
be got together very quicklyafter a show.
Um to to, once we had the idea,anyway, anyone could do
anything they liked.
It was party pieces initially,it was ideas from shows, what we
might do as a cabaret, and LesMiserables put together the very
first cabaret, and we took itvery seriously.
So we had very we had someitems that were very moving.
(37:44):
I mean, we were in the showthat was so you know um anthemic
anyway.
So we were it's all singing, itwas it was singing or pieces of
poetry or readings or things,and anyway, we put together a
cabaret, and it was the firstone, so and of course we were
the longest running show in timelength of the show.
Jonathan (38:03):
I mean, it's a long show, so we didn't show it's
long and long and long.
Jill (38:08):
We didn't come down till 10 to 11.
10 to 11.
So we had to then we wanted togo up at a half eleven, quarter
to twelve, otherwise peoplearen't gonna hang around the
West End all night waiting forthe show.
So we had everything geared upto go.
And uh Bob West, our companymanager, or West End company
manager, had all the technicalside ready to go, and we went in
(38:28):
there to set up.
We'd done a sound check earlierin the day, in the morning
before the matinee.
Race down to there.
James (38:35):
And we were literally running, we were truly running a
main show and then late-nightcabaret, and that's how it went,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jill (38:42):
Or for the rehearsal day, but on the Monday we'd only done
the the main show.
Yeah, but when we had the whenwe did the meetings, then we had
the matinees.
We did them on all differentdays, but we decided that we
would do a month of Monday nightcabarets, and that seemed to be
the best way to do it.
That was the night that Smith'srestaurant could accommodate
(39:02):
us.
We'll see how the first fourwent, then we'd have a month
off, then we'd try and doanother four, and that's how we
did it.
And we moved from Smith's, andwhen they got fed up of us, we
moved to centre stage and wemoved to the conult rooms.
We found various places, and wedid late-night cabarets, and
then actual shows would put on alate-night performance, and we
took the takings from that withthe management of the shows.
(39:25):
So we had, and I've said thisbefore, but we have an inbuilt
source of people paying money tobe entertained in West End
shows.
I mean, it's all there.
So, you know, and people inlong runs, they like to do
something different.
Yeah, they like to feel theywere helping.
Most people wanted to help.
James (39:43):
Um and most people have been affected in some way.
Jill (39:46):
At that point, it looked terrifying.
James (39:48):
Yeah.
Jill (39:48):
So people were absolutely scared of losing their friends
or their families.
Yeah.
To uh it was certainly withinour community.
Later on, it became a littlebit more shall we make this a
bit more communal.
And raise money for otherthings as well, because not
everyone's affected by HIV andAIDS.
And initially, if people askedus that, we would say, well,
that's absolutely fine.
We will support you if you wantto do something for another
(40:11):
charity.
Of course we will, but we arefundraising for this.
But later on, of course, wediversified.
James (40:18):
And was and was it fundraising?
What what were you, I guess,what were you fundraising for?
But also was it, was it, werewere you, was it activism?
Obviously it was activism, butwe were you aiming to get policy
change?
Jill (40:28):
It's a good idea.
It's a good question you'veasked me because we were
fundraising for um not theTerence Higgins Trust, but
Crusade.
And Crusade ran the hardshipfund where the money went
directly to people strugglingwith HIV mates and into
research.
So that's where we decided,because Crusade had done an
(40:49):
event, a one-off event, under atitle West End Cares.
So we rang them to ask if wecould use it and take it
forward, and they were quitethrilled with that.
So what we did was wephysically raised the money and
we handed it over to Crusadevery often in buckets of cash.
I know it you not, becausethere was nothing so
sophisticated as there is now.
(41:09):
And when I was doing Oliver inthe West End, we did a bucket
collection, that's the otherthing we would do.
We would announce at the end ofthe show, and we would do a
bucket collection, and in thatshow was Jim Dale, who some
people will remember from theold carry-on films, and he was a
great performer, singer, songand dance man, still, you know,
still is a good performer, buthe had had a very sad story of
(41:33):
losing his daughter fromleukemia.
And so we said with our bucketcollection, Palladium Theatre,
it's a big theatre, we'll go50-50 if you if you're willing
to do the curtain speech, and wecan do 50-50 for leukemia, HIV
and AIDS.
And um, he did a beautifulspeech every day for um uh I
(41:56):
think it was a week or maybe twoweeks.
We raised a lot of money,bucket collection, and we
counted every penny of that indressing room E and we split it
and we carried all the money inbuckets round the corner to the
bank and banked it in the bank.
Truly, and we would comebetween shows with another load
of money to bank in the bank.
(42:17):
Oh my god, the bank would seeus coming in.
And then eventually Crusade gotsome counting machines and we
could do the bucket collections,collect them all the money in
cars, go around and put itthrough the counting machines.
But we didn't have that then,we just had teams of people
actually counting.
And after our cab rays, thatwas brilliant because we had it
was so grassroots, you know, itwas so it's so so like um a
(42:39):
village hall kind of feelbecause they would phone up to
Le Mise, phone up the stagedoor, say can I have two tickets
for the cabray?
We had a seating plan, tickingthem off because we got this
number of people in that tablesold out, you know.
Keep this table.
Yeah, somebody saw um a manwith grey hair and a beard at
the the door of our firstcabinet and went, Oh my god,
it's Stephen Sondheim, and thenwe haven't got Stephen Sondover
(43:01):
table.
So we're going, oh my god, cansomebody get it wasn't Stephen
Sondium at all?
Somebody give Stephen Sondheima seat.
James (43:12):
This feels like you know, getting raising all this cash,
um, getting, I guess, normaltheatre goers, people that
weren't in the other speechcommunity, or that weren't
feeling directly affected.
How did that change because youknow, from being very isolated,
feeling that this is a veryisolating condition, that
society has isolated thiscommunity to then getting a
(43:34):
broader community of people tosupport.
How did that change yourmindset and say, yeah, we're
doing something?
Jill (43:40):
Well, as soon as you start putting money in the bank, you
feel like you're doingsomething.
Because we used to have thiscrusade account, which I think I
can't remember which bank itwas in now, but we used to have
a bit walk between shows and doyou certainly feel a sense of
achievement once you startputting some money in.
And once the money started toget a lot bigger, like through
things like that.
But you could also have peopleinitially could be quite
(44:01):
affronted by the fact that wewere raising for HIV and AIDS.
Right.
So you would find that youmight do better if you were
doing children in need for abucket collection.
You know, the the cat the theamount of money you might raise
for children in need, nothingwrong with that, of course.
But that was something thatwould grip the whole nation.
Whereas you'd have certainsections of society who
certainly wouldn't put money inthe bucket for AIDS.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Right.
Jill (44:24):
So you you did have that.
But nevertheless, you've got anaudience of thousands of people
sometimes.
And so you're going to get somemoney.
Yeah.
You're not going to find thateverybody, and when you have
somebody like Jim Dale, forinstance, doing a beautiful
speech about his own charity aswell, sometimes that, you know,
would made people think, okay, Iguess you think it's one
(44:45):
disease, it's another disease.
The the human feeling behindthat is the same.
Jonathan (44:49):
But and thinking about Limiz for a second, um, because
you mentioned it beinganthemic.
Empty chairs and empty tables.
Very much uh adopted by theLGBT community in the kind of
80s and 90s as a symbol of thatcrisis.
Is that something you wereaware of being in the show at
(45:09):
that time?
Jill (45:10):
Oh, I think so.
I think you can't avoid allthose tragic, all those
tragedies uh, you know, andbeautiful lyrics.
And I mean they became obvious,you know, God on high, all
those things, and bring himhome, all our beautiful songs.
And the Kiss of the SpiderWoman was up the road, and they
had Um Tomorrow We'll Be Free.
(45:31):
Yeah, if not if not tomorrow,then the day after that, and
Liza Minnelli sang that for umthe gay men's chorus in the
States, and that became ananthem over there.
So there was a lot of thatusing the music and and using
it.
I thought probably I don't knowto say if that's the first time
all that was done, but I Ithink it probably was, you know.
(45:52):
And when my friend died, myfriend Juan died in in Paris,
the French cast of LesMiserables sang.
Hear the people sing at hisfuneral, and so they became like
those those celebrations oflife with amazing music and all
of that.
James (46:08):
And and you spent quite a bit of time in Paris with Juan.
Jill (46:10):
I tried to, yeah, definitely.
I tried to.
James (46:13):
That gave you almost a unique perspective of how other
countries were looking at HIV.
Jill (46:20):
Well, he came back and forth to London quite a bit
because and nothing wrong withthe medical treatment in Paris,
nothing wrong.
But but the centre, it seemedlike the centre of the
inspiration of the gay communitywas much stronger in London.
James (46:35):
Okay.
Jill (46:36):
And that may be because it hadn't quite because London,
the theatre community, wasfollowing San Francisco and New
York with a number ofinfections, right?
And Paris would not have had somany infections.
So not so much new information.
And so it's a different, adifferent country with a
different community.
Because the big theatrecommunities, we have these big
(46:57):
theatre communities in New Yorkand London, and they don't
they're not really the same inother countries.
Of course, they've got theatreand talent and art in abundance,
but we have this kind ofcommercial theatre that happens
in New York and and and London,and and it was big.
Jonathan (47:12):
Yeah.
Jill (47:12):
So you had a lot of people affected, and that's the the
nub of it, really.
Jonathan (47:17):
And we should briefly talk about David Raven, whose
funeral record is that.
Um and for anyone who may notknow David Raven's personality,
drag personality was MaisieTrollette.
And I think Maisie Trollettewas the oldest working drag
queen up until he was nice yearsago.
Jill (47:35):
Well, even the the last time he did his he sang was on
his 90th birthday celebration atthe Dome in Brighton, and he
did an amazing job of sitting ona high chair and singing if I
never sing another song, andreally very emotional for the
audience uh and amazing.
So he he was until he died lastweek, well the week before last
(47:59):
of the funeral was this week.
Um, he was the oldest workingdrag queen in the world.
There was an American guy whowould they did this um Netflix
series.
Jonathan (48:08):
I saw that.
Jill (48:09):
That that guy uh I I can't remember his drag name, that
guy, but he passed away a whileback leaving David Raven, who
would always be David Raven theman and Maisie Trollett the drug
artist.
Yes.
Jonathan (48:22):
But then you and you never crossed the gentleman.
Jill (48:24):
Never crossed the two.
No, no.
He would go, who, who?
If you called him Maisie and hewas dressed uh in his ordinary
clothes, he would like no.
So um, big friend of mine,beautiful man, loved sat at the
table at the Pink Palace.
Uh quite a few times, you know,he was around he was anything
if not supportive to everybody.
(48:45):
And he was a brilliant,brilliant performer in his own
right.
And the iconic thing aboutDavid was that he became a drug
artiste uh through the 60s.
It was all under cover, youknow.
He was stigmatized simply forbeing a gay man, and he had to
keep that in his own world, andso he's grown up with all of
(49:07):
that.
He's never been anything buthimself.
He's always been himself.
He knew himself as hediscovered himself.
Obviously, he didn't know froma little boy, but he knew who he
was, who he wanted to be, andhe lived his life properly
trailblazing.
And and I'm very honoured tohave known him.
He was an amazing person and ahuge supporter, a lover of the
(49:28):
theatre, a lover of peoplearound him.
Goodness knows what Brightonwill do without him, because he
was a centre of a community inBrighton, which is a great
community, a great gaycommunity, but it's sadly
missing David Raven.
Jonathan (49:45):
In the opening to Love from the Pink Palace, Russell
T.
Davies calls you a hero.
Do you recognise that inyourself?
Jill (49:54):
No, I don't know.
And Russell Russell loves me, Iknow he loves me, I love him.
But um listen, there's allsorts of people doing heroic
things.
I mean, what is it?
I don't know.
I don't recognise that inmyself, no.
I I to recognise it in otherpeople that I see going, you
know, in war zones and you knowthat that kind of that that kind
(50:18):
of thing which creates terrorin you on a daily basis.
I mean, we yes, we did.
We didn't we took it as our itwas our life, we had to do
something with the way our lifewas.
Um and I'm honoured that SamJack Russell even says lovely
things about me, which I know hedoes.
And um but there's a lot ofpeople out there doing stuff,
(50:40):
and and I'm one of I've beengiven this platform, which is
amazing, and that's that's anhonour, and I try to do this,
and that's why I wanted to speakwith you guys.
You guys guys are great, andyou're trying to do this
project, which is amazing, andI'm thrilled to be part of it,
you know.
It's it's a great thing, andpeople should know their
history, they should know what'sgone on, and um and a few
(51:02):
things that I've done in insimilar veins, not quite the
same as yours, but there arepeople now in the gay community
being aware that you know thingswill go missing.
And there's a lady up inScotland who was collecting work
by gay people that um work thathas been written under
pseudonyms, people not admittingthey were gay.
(51:23):
Lavender Menace has just cometo me.
And that that's an amazing umwork as well, trying to make
sure the written work, is thiswritten by a gay person?
Is this meant to be a gayrelationship veiled, you know?
So there's a lot of stuff outthere, and it's a great time to
be finding that that history.
James (51:42):
And that's that's why we're so motivated to do this
podcast because we all need tolearn from history.
Jill (51:50):
Yes.
James (51:50):
And now do we ever well, this is the thing, and so and so
you know, there are plenty ofuh LGBTQ people now in positions
of authority, responsibility,decision making that that didn't
live through the uh age crisis,that didn't that didn't
experience this discrimination,that have grown up in a world,
you know, in many respects,extremely privileged, to have
(52:13):
grown up in a world based on theactivism of people like you and
others that have made our livesinfinitely better.
But it's very easy to forgetthat that happened.
And so, what is your messagefor the next generation, for for
people growing up now aboutwhere society goes and how we
can shape change?
Jill (52:34):
Well, I th I think everybody wants their own chance
in life, don't they?
I mean, if I have a message, itwould be to take time to think
where where we stand.
I mean, I take time to think,not about the where we stand on
the where the gay communitiescome, because that's for the
next generation to think wherethey are.
But I think our parents, youknow, we've lived without a war.
(52:54):
We've lived without war on ourshores.
I mean, you know, there'sthere's people who've changed
the world in every direction.
I'm a woman on the shoulders ofpeople who've allowed me to
have a vote.
unknown (53:06):
Yes.
Jill (53:06):
So it's take time out to learn because you'll find
something interesting.
Time to to think where we aretoday because of people that
came before us.
Because we all carry that withus in every shape or form.
So, you know, try not toforget, I would say.
James (53:21):
Yeah.
Jill (53:22):
Because life is short.
Try and make a difference, tryand let everybody have their
life and for goodness sake, stoptrying to stop people being
themselves.
James (53:31):
Do you think seeing what's happening in in America
at the moment with the USadministration and and
elsewhere, do you do you thinkthere's a huge danger that we're
gonna go backwards quite a longway?
And what do we need to do aboutthat?
Jill (53:46):
Do we have another three hours?
I mean, how do we even knowwhere how do we even know where
this is going?
You know, this is we we live inscary times because I don't
think we quite know where we'regoing.
And and I feel like, you know,again, people are being um
prevented from being themselves,and it's gradually coming
(54:06):
around to think, okay, peoplehaven't maybe lived through
this.
What I what I hate is when yousee people who haven't lived
through various experiences, youknow, war being being a big
one, then joining on to maybe,you know, doing the salutes, the
I don't know even if I can sayit, but the Nazi salutes and and
(54:27):
all that kind of thing, and nothaving any idea, maybe what
that felt like, you know, andyou know, wanting to make a
point, but riding on the back ofsuch pain that has been caused
for people.
Yeah that I think if if wecould only look at the things
that have why should we try tocause pain for people?
That's what I I really don'tunderstand.
Speaker 4 (54:47):
Yeah.
Jill (54:48):
Because what what people decide to do, yeah, have your
left wing or right wing views.
That's fine, you can have yourviews, but when you're actively
causing other people to not ableto live their life, why would
you do that?
Why would that be a good idea?
James (55:03):
And it feels like that's one of the key lessons of of the
decades that you've livedthrough is don't forget your
activism, don't forget where youcame from, don't forget that
rights can move forwards andbackwards, and we've got to keep
that pressure.
Jill (55:18):
Why can't we just try to make people's lives easier
instead of making them harder?
Why should you say you can't dothis or you can't do that?
Or, you know, so so I don'tknow, so people feel fear and
then it can't be good.
It can't be good.
You can't you can't achieveyour life in its full potential.
It's hard enough anyway, isn'tit?
To to find our place, toachieve, to do what we need to
(55:39):
do.
But if you feel fear, you can'texpress yourself.
If you can't get an education,if you're in certain countries,
if you can't even be legal, ifyou're a gay man in certain
countries, you can't even beallowed to study if you're a
woman or a young girl in certaincountries.
How can you have your life toits full potential?
And and also benefit yourcommunity, ultimately, the
(56:00):
planet, our species, if part ofit is not being fulfilled.
James (56:06):
Yeah, it's an incredible message, and I and I have such
admiration for your activism,for your heroism, for and and
and you know, I know that youwere talking earlier that you
believe your OBEs is lots ofpeople's efforts.
And of course that's right, butyour efforts, your incredible
um work, the support,fundraising.
Jill (56:28):
Well, I hope that that, having had that honour, and it
is it is because of a lot ofpeople as well, but I hope that
going forward that will uh makeyou know be a good platform for
maybe fundraising and doingstuff like that.
Because it's, you know, havinghaving got something like that,
I I feel like more than I haveto, you know, keep earning that.
James (56:49):
It's incredible that you still have in your belly.
Jill (56:54):
My friend sent me in congratulations.
He went, Congratulations, Jilland all of O B E.
Old but entertaining.
Jonathan (57:03):
Jill, thank you so much for coming today.
Jill (57:05):
It's absolutely my pleasure.
Thank you.
Jonathan (57:07):
It's an absolute honour to have you.
Jill (57:08):
I've enjoyed talking to you both.
Jonathan (57:10):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to theview from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (57:26):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
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