S1E5: Adèle Anderson - Radical Queen to Trans Trailblazer - The View From Here

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund.
The idea of holding a gay pridemarch.
To challenge that shamefulview.
Equality, and for some peoplein Stonewall like me, equality

(00:24):
was kind of like what you got toas a starting point.

Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.

James (00:41):
Today we're joined by Adele Anderson, the performer
and trans rights activist bestknown for her work with the
satirical cabaret groupFascinating Aida.

Jonathan (00:49):
We talked to Adele about her childhood knowing she
was different, gay liberation,the challenges of transitioning
in the 1970s, and her work withFascinating Aida.

James (01:00):
This is an adult podcast exploring an often difficult
period of LGBTQ history.
And as such, the seriescontains discussions of suicide,
conversion therapy, homophobia,transphobia, drug use, strong
language, and graphic sexualdescriptions.
But it also has a lot of joyand laughs along the way.

Jonathan (01:18):
One extra note.
This was recorded before theApril 2025 Supreme Court case on
trans rights in the UK.
We are so excited to have AdeleAnderson here with us.

Adele (01:33):
Well, thank you very much.

Jonathan (01:35):
Thank you for joining us.
You and I have met before.
We met at our great friend'ssad passing but remarkable
funeral.
Yes, Betty Bourne.
Betty Bourne.
The wonderful Betty Bourne.
Who was extraordinary.
Did you ever work with Betty?

Adele (01:50):
I didn't, but he did influence my life in a great way
because I went to university inBirmingham.
I was doing drama there.
And I was kind of wrestlingwith uh being gay while I was
there.
I actually referred myself tofor aversion therapy while I was
there.
So that's another wholesubject.

(02:11):
But anyway, when I leftuniversity, I came out
immediately.
And so I was with GLF.
I joined GLF, Gay LiberationFront.
And uh I was reminded of itrecently, some a researcher came
to visit me and said, And doyou remember when you addressed
the conference in Sheffield?
And I went, No.
And he went, Well, here it is.

(02:32):
And he had he had all thetranscripts and everything.
And apparently I used to, youknow, I used to give fire brand
speeches about gay politics.
And one of the things I saidwas, now I know there are some
people who do want to changetheir gender, but I don't feel
that the need for that because Iwas presenting at the time as

(02:53):
what I recalled myself a radicalqueen.
And that was a direct result ofhaving come down to London and
met uh Betty Bourne and uh BlueLips and all the rest of it.
And I saw what they were doing,and I went back up to
Birmingham and I became Brit uhBirmingham's only radical queen.

James (03:10):
Well, what defines a radical queen?

Adele (03:11):
Well, I dressed in women's I mean you call it
non-binary now.
I dressed in women's clothes,but I didn't uh make any attempt
to be a woman.
Right.
I suppose a bit more like DavidHoyle does now, you know.
I would I would wear makeup,but I might have have you know
beard growth, etc.
And I was very aggressive withpeople.
If they if you know, if theygave me any trouble, if I get on

(03:32):
a bus and be, I'd go, what areyou looking at?
Never seen a man in a skirtbefore?
You know, all that sort ofstuff.
So I wasn't a very nice personwhen I was.

Jonathan (03:39):
In Birmingham in the early 70s.
Wow.

Adele (03:44):
But interesting enough, Gay Lib were invited into a
comprehensive school while wewere there.
Can you imagine this happeningnow?

Jonathan (03:50):
Oh my god.

Adele (03:51):
To talk to, I suppose they were about 14 or 15, the
kids.
And we all went in to to talkto them about gay politics.
And I went in my I had a skirtsuit, so I looked like I was
going to the office, but youknow, it was a skirt suit.
And uh, I mean, there are lotsof people doing it down in
London.
Julian Howes, you know, whoworked on the um London

(04:11):
Underground, there was a adirective that went out about
the uniforms for people on theunderground, they weren't
allowing women staff to weartrousers.
And so he, to protest, turnedup in a skirt.
And it was all over the papers,you know.
So that sort of thing was goingon a lot down here, but it
really wasn't up in Birmingham.

James (04:31):
So that was that was a London thing, not anywhere else
in the country.

Adele (04:34):
Well, it certainly wasn't happening in Birmingham.
No.
Yeah.
Uh apart for me.
And but then I actually metsome trans girls.
And uh and we were all in thein Gaelib for a while until
Gaelib, I mean it's it startedto fall apart quite soon because
first of all, um lesbians leftbecause of the toxic

(04:58):
masculinity.
And then uh and then we werepolitely reminded that as we
identified as heterosexualwomen, that we didn't have a
place there either.
So we had we had to go.

Jonathan (05:08):
Oh wow.

Adele (05:09):
Uh wow.
And by that time, anyway, Idecided that I was going to uh I
was fed up with being a radicalqueen.
It was too much like hard work,and I actually wanted to do,
was going to do what I reallyhad wanted to do all the time,
which was to transitionproperly.
So that's what I did.

Jonathan (05:25):
And just going back to that moment when we went to
that school.

Adele (05:28):
Yeah.

Jonathan (05:29):
Do you do you recall that?
Do you recall what the youngpeople said, whether it's
whether you were nervous?
How do how what was that likefor you?

Adele (05:35):
I don't think we were nervous because there were quite
a few of us.
But it was all men, there weredon't think there were any women
came with us.
No, they asked quiteintelligent questions.
But it was interesting thatthey asked us about um, oh, d
Aunt would wouldn't you like toget be able to get married?
And we all went, married?
No, we don't want to doanything for ridiculously

(05:57):
heterosexual like that.
No, no, no, we're destroyingthe patriarchy.
And uh no, we don't want to dothat.
Um no, we're not interested inmonogamy.
No, no, no.
I thought I don't know whathappened to that generation of
children.

James (06:12):
And was this well this this must have been shortly
before actually talking abouthomosexuality in schools was was
banned.

Adele (06:19):
Yes, well, it no, I was this was still in uh in the 70s,
I'm talking about because Igraduated from university in
1972.
Right.
And I am now 72, so it wasquite a long time ago.
So uh yes, so but we were very,very political, you know, we
went to um we marched with thewell that would be a bit later

(06:41):
we marched with the minors, ofcourse, and everything.
I didn't go to Wales and do anyof that, but yes, it was it it
was quite a lot of politics, andI sort of felt like I had to
live a day-to-day as an out-gayperson and I had to really be on
it and all the time.
And I just got a bit sick ofit, really, and I actually just

(07:02):
wanted to to be a a woman, anduntil I discovered, of course,
well, that was ridiculous.
I wasn't just going to becauseI remember when I first
transitioned, I went in to visitone of my gay friends, he was
in the hospital for something,and I was wearing a pair of
green slacks and some hushpuppies.
He said, What the fuck are youwearing?
He said, You look like a bllibrarian, and don't ever come

(07:27):
and see me dressed like thatagain.
So what happened to the glamourthat you used to have?
So uh yeah, so I I went back toit.

James (07:36):
Back to the glam, back to the glam.

Adele (07:38):
Well, except I'm not not uber glam these days because I
because I'm on stage, I can beuber glam on stage.
I don't need to be uber glam.

Jonathan (07:45):
I'm so excited to get to fascinating Aida, which Oh
well that'll be that's a longtime to be able to do that.
Which is is what I'm fanfanboying to be if I'm honest.
Okay.
Um but let's talk about thatperiod of transition for you.
Yeah.
Um you you did a podcastrecently uh called Gay Old Time,
which was a fantastic, afantastic interview, and you

(08:07):
talked about going from a gayman to a drag queen to a radical
queen to transitioning.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of coming outthere, right?
There's a lot of disclosures ofwho you are.

Adele (08:19):
Yes.

Jonathan (08:19):
So let's talk, if it's okay with you, let's talk a
little bit about transitioningin the 1970s and what that
looked like for you.

Adele (08:27):
It was um, I mean, I know it's such a cliche, but I mean
I really did know when I wasthree that I was trans, because
I remember I wasn't sittingunder the table, uh, under the
piano like uh Jan Morris, if youremember, if you've read her
book Conundrum, she says, I wassitting under the piano
listening to my mother playBeethoven's, whatever it was,

(08:47):
and I knew.
But uh no.
I was running round the housewith a t with a towel round my
head saying, Look at my lovelylong hair, etc.
And and I said to my parents,when I finish being a boy, I'm
going to be a lady.
And my dad said, Well, no, youit doesn't work like that, you
can't.
And I was really, very upset.
And I was quite an emotionalchild, but I the and I used to

(09:12):
have terrible temper tantrumswhen I was young.
The slightest thing would setme off.
I was very overdramatic abouteverything.
Um, then I went off to boardingschool, and you have to, you
know, you're a bit moreregimented there.
So the thought of being a girljust it died down for a bit.

James (09:30):
Did you have in your head any idea of what that time
frame would be of at that time,if you recall sort of finishing
being a boy, going to be a lady?
When did you think that thatbit might happen in your in your
mind back then?

Adele (09:44):
I didn't really know.
I suppose I thought once I gotto 10, maybe.
You know, I mean, when you'rethree, ten is kind of like a
long time away.
Um, I don't know why, I justsort of had thought it would
happen.
I knew I was a boy, I knew Iwasn't a girl.
But I thought, well, then I'llstop being a boy and then I can

(10:04):
then I can be a lady.
Somehow it will happen.
But um then I was told it itcouldn't happen.
So um that was very dis thatwas very upsetting.
But then I'm very pragmatic andI've I adapt to the situations
I'm in.
So when I went to boardingschool, but I was a cathedral
chorister.
So I got to wear long dressesanyway, you know, like a cassock

(10:29):
and a surplus and and be adoredby the people who came to hear
us sing and be on the telly anddo stuff.
So because our choir got got uhfilmed.
Then when I went to boardingschool, of course, I'd I just
was pubescing at the time, andsuddenly there were all these
18-year-old men with muscles onthe rugby field, and it was it

(10:51):
was quite you know, then otherstirrings happen, you forget
about being a girl becausesuddenly this other thing is
happening down below.
So nothing, as I said in thatother podcast, nothing was
happening because the yearbefore I went to this boarding
school, which is also acathedral school, this um public
school, four of the boys ofsenior boys had been found

(11:14):
having a gay orgy in the belltower of the cathedral.
And um, as a result, a a sortof stygian gloom had settled
over the Puritanism, had settledover the school.
So nobody was looking sidewaysat anybody, nobody was doing
anything.

James (11:29):
So did that shut down all talk about sexuality and gender
identity in this maybe therewouldn't have been much of that
anyway, but did that just kindof shut down the city?

Adele (11:38):
Yeah, actually, I think I'd had I had my sex education
talk at pret school when I wasabout 12.

James (11:46):
Right.

Adele (11:47):
From the vic from the priest.
Oh dear.
So it was while I was at publicschool that uh my father found
out I was gay.
So he decided that actuallybeing in a single sex school was
not a good idea, and he didn'twant to spend any more money on
my education, as I haddisappointed him.

(12:08):
So but the weird thing is thereason I was sent to prep school
in the uh in the first placewas because when I was at
primary school I used to hangout with all the girls, and the
head teacher called my father inand said, You're gonna have
problems with this boy later onin life, you need to get him
into a single-sex school.
So he got ill advice from bothends, really.

(12:31):
So my father actually was gonnakick me out of the house then,
uh, because I was 15, you couldleave school at 15.
And I'd just done my O levelsas well.
He said I could become anestate agent, which I didn't
didn't hold out much joy for me.
But luckily my stepmotherrefused and wouldn't let him do

(12:51):
it because uh the first thing hedid was he took me to a child
psychologist who said yes, I wasI was an invert, I think that
was the word he used, and um Iwould need to have aversion
therapy.
I think we called it conversiontherapy in those days.
And when my father found outwhat was involved, even he

(13:13):
balked at the idea of uh sendinghis 15-year-old son for that,
so so he just wanted to kick meout.
But anyway, so I stayed in thehouse, I did my A levels at the
local college, and then I wentto university and I never lived
at home again after that.

James (13:27):
And you meant you mentioned earlier the idea of
kind of aversion therapy orconversion therapy, and you sort
of I maybe I recollected wrongwhat you said, but you said you
sort of referred yourself to it.
Was that something thathappened later at university?

Adele (13:38):
Yes, when I was at university, I got to university
and I was quite quite, Ithought, oh, I'm in the drama
department, I'm quite out.
So I was quite out.
Then I discovered I really wasthe only gay in the drama
department, which is ridiculous,really.
I'd been hoping that I wasgoing to grow out of it by the
time I was 18.
I don't know why.
I always got these numbers,yeah.

(13:58):
Oh, when I'm 18, you know, I'vegrown out of that, but I wasn't
obviously going to be growingout of it, and um and I ended
up, I got very drunk at a party,and I ended up in bed with with
somebody.
Nothing happened, but I was sotraumatised by the whole thing
and the fact that everybodymight think I was gay that I um
I took an overdose ofparacetamol, which is a very

(14:21):
slow way to go, by the way.
Um and I thought I'll just I'lljust walk around until I
collapse.
And then but it took too long,and I thought, oh no, so I went
and told somebody, and I endedup that same night going to
hospital and being pumped out.
And interesting enough, when Iwoke up the next morning in the

(14:43):
hospital, who should be all overthe front page of the papers,
but April Ashley.
Oh wow.
For those people who don'tknow, April Ashley was uh one of
the very first people totransition in Britain.
Well, she didn't transition inBritain, she trans she went to
Casablanca to have the surgerybecause she was working in a in
a nightclub in Paris.

(15:04):
And she then married a memberof the English aristocracy, um
uh Corbett, yes, your HonourableArthur Corbett, who um but my
understanding is that she ranoff with an Italian count on
their honeymoon.
So the marriage the marriagedidn't really go very well, and

(15:25):
so he applied not for a divorcebut for an annulment on the
grounds that she was not abiological woman, and nobody did
give much thought to it beforethen.
People had been quietlychanging their birth
certificates before then.
They had, you know, there'dbeen others who transitioned
even before April, but theytended to be members of the
English aristocracy who hadquite a lot of money, and people

(15:46):
just sort of got on with it.
But of course, April was fromthe slums of Liverpool, so
rather like uh the profumo case,the reason what they hated so
much about about Keela and RiceDavis were the fact that they
were working class, and that wasthe same with April, because
she dared to uh inveigle her wayinto the aristocracy when she

(16:10):
was actually from the slums ofLiverpool, and class still held
great sway in those days.
So anyway, there was anabsolutely ghastly, ghastly,
ghastly court case, and um inwhich the judge said some really
unpleasant things to her, anduh it was deemed that she was

(16:30):
not uh a biological woman, andso so the marriage was annulled,
and then she became a socialpariah.
People who'd uh embraced herspattered her in the street, and
she had to go and live inAmerica for a while, I think.
But but but then I looked at Ilooked at her on the front page
and in the basket in theswimming pool at Nice, and I
thought, oh, it is possible, yousee, it is possible.

(16:52):
Um so that was a bit of acomfort, but in the meantime, I
thought, well, that was going onin one thing, but I thought,
but I don't don't look like I soand then the psychiatrist came
to see me and and I said I said,Why did you do it?
And I tried to explain, and Isaid I said, My father tried to

(17:14):
send me for aversion therapybefore, and he went, Ah, well,
we're doing it here at theuniversity.
Uh so I said, Right, sign meup, because I thought it was my
last ditch attempt, I think, totry and fulfill my father's
wishes.

James (17:34):
So I I had the the therapy, which So you signed up
knowing that even your fatherhad uh said this is too this is
well I didn't know that tilllater, right till later, till I
spoke to him.

Adele (17:46):
But um and I was helping because it it was sort of a
trial that they were running.
So I thought I'm helpingmedical science, which would be
marvelous.
I'm always always up for thatsort of thing.
But it was uh and somebody elsewho was in that that um trial
has since uh sued BirminghamUniversity for long-term PTSD

(18:11):
because apparently part of histreatment was he was advised to
marry a woman at all costs,which he did, but they had never
consummated in all the yearsthat they lived, they were
husband and wife, they neverconsummated the marriage because
he he had a horror of femalegenitality, didn't want to do
it.
Um and so he was now still inthe university, the university

(18:32):
had lost all the records becauseit was four computers, you
know, it could have they couldhave been misfiled on this
right.
But I don't have PTSD from it,but I can tell you exactly what
happened.
You uh it there was a lot of umform filling.
So you'd have to they give youthis these this questionnaire

(18:54):
about um you know how do youfeel about uh men's socks?
How do you feel about uhBrazil's?
I mean all about the articlesof clothing, and then it was
sort of moving parts of the bodyand all the rest of it.
And then also you had to uhthey showed you they gave you a
book of pictures of men and abook of pictures of women, and

(19:17):
you had to pick out which onesyou found attractive.
Well, if you didn't find womenattractive to start with, it was
a bit tricky, so you had tosort of make an educated guess.
And the men, it wasn't porn, itwasn't naked men with stiffies,
it was uh they were sort of,you know, they look like they
come out of a catalogue.

Jonathan (19:34):
Oh wow.

Adele (19:36):
Oh wow.
That's really funny.
So anyway, so there wasn't agreat deal of uh, you know, I
mean, I I uh I got as manybare-chested ones as I could, I
think.
And then they s they strap youin this chair, and they put a um
electrode on your wrist here,and they put another one on your
ankle.

(19:56):
So then it's a darkendrum.
Slide comes up, it's a pictureof a man, and um you have five
seconds to make it go away.
Uh if you don't do it withinfive seconds, you get an
electric shock.
Which makes your hand go likethat.

Jonathan (20:17):
So it's so quite a significant shock.

Adele (20:20):
Yeah.
And then you get a picture of awoman as a uh as a reward
before you get the next the nextpicture.
But you can't always just bankon the fact that if you look at
it for four seconds and thenpress your button, it'll you
might still get the shockanyway.
For even looking at it, youknow something.
But some of the other methodsthat were used for aversion

(20:41):
therapy were much worse than Ihad.
You know, they've they putelectrodes on your penis and
your genitals, and they theygave you vomiting-inducing
drugs.
Uh, they would show you lotsand lots of pictures of men and
make you vomit at the same time.
Uh so I didn't have any ofthat.
So mine was was my soft core, Iwould say, rather than rather
than hardcore.

(21:02):
Uh anyway, I can't remember howlong it went off, but it was
quite a long time, quite a fewmonths.
And I constantly these bloodyquestionnaires, how do you feel
about men's socks?

James (21:11):
Uh, so if you change your opinion based on it.

Adele (21:15):
And I wasn't really changing my opinion, but I knew
what they wanted, so I would,you know, I would subtly alter
it.
Anyway, I got out the otherend.

James (21:23):
And they thought they'd succeeded in the city.

Adele (21:30):
But it it just sort of stripped me of any sexuality
whatsoever.
I was sort of like a eunuch.
I had no Actually, that's nottrue because eunuchs do have
sexual feelings apparently, butI just didn't I didn't fancy
anybody.
And all my joie de vivevanished.

(21:51):
We had a very we're a nice uhguy who was our production
manager, and he said, he said,what's happened to you?
He said, last year you lookedlike a queer, this year you look
like a moody queer.
So as I was going around thetheatre, going around in a black
polar neck jumper, and youknow, so so.
And that went on for quite afew months, and then our uh

(22:17):
professor decided he was goingto do a production of The Maids
by Jean Cheney, and he cast meas Claire.
Uh and my best friend with whomI was in love, but you know,
could never be with, he playedmy sister sallange, and then
another friend of ours wasplaying Madame, and it was all
done under you know, behindclosed doors, it was closed,

(22:40):
closed set, as they say.
And when I first put the wigon, and I looked at myself in
the mirror, I thought, Oh, thereyou are.

James (22:48):
Oh yeah, but then of course did your professor do
this to help you out?
Have you thought about thethought process of a professor
in casting?

Adele (22:58):
Sure.
No, because the other two boyswere both straight.

James (23:01):
Oh, right, okay.

Adele (23:02):
Yeah.
And had had uh, and in fact,the guy that was playing Madame
found it particularly difficult.

Jonathan (23:07):
Oh, yeah.

Adele (23:08):
Could not walk in those high-heel shoes.
So they did their best.
But but I mean, uh my friendwho was playing my sister,
because he and I had a veryclose connection anyway, we
found it a lot easier to playwith each other.
But uh but then the playfinished, and we all grew beards

(23:29):
to um you know, to reassert ourprove how manly you are.
So that went on till the end ofthat year, and then in the
third year, uh which is services1971 to two, a lot more
articles about uh gender andsexuality and stuff started to

(23:52):
appear in the papers.
I remember when um Wally Stott,the band leader, became Angela
Morley and moved to America.
Yes, and there was a very smallpiece in the paper about her,
just there was a sort of grainypicture of her in a car, and off
she went, and there wasn't abig fuss about it.
The next big fuss in the paperscame with Caroline Cossey.

(24:15):
That was the next big transscandal, as they say, that came
along.
So, anyway, so in the I leftunivers, so then I left
university.
I was and then so in the finalyear I started keeping this
scrapbook.
I would cut things out of thenewspaper, and I made made this
volumes of these articles.

(24:35):
I just said it was just forresearch, and I was sort of you
know trying to kid myself.
And then I actually donatedthose books to uh a gay library
somewhere, and I think they'renow at the University of
Belfast, or they were at theUniversity of Belfast and now
they're somewhere else.
But anyway, they existsomewhere to be looked at, all
these old articles.

(24:56):
So then I left university andthen I plunged straight into
GLF, and within a very shortspace of time, it happened.
I got I got pounced on by fouruh bitchy queens who decided to
make me into their own image.
So I would have to go around totheir house and I'd have

(25:17):
lessons on how to hold my teaand and uh what remark no, you
wouldn't say that.
No, you would say this, youknow, all the rest of it.

James (25:26):
I love that so far in this podcast we're getting every
type of queen, valuable queen,bitchy queen, moody queen.
This is fantastic.

Adele (25:32):
So um and I became very queenie and bitchy, and it was
very unpleasant.
I I didn't particularly likemyself as that.
And then I was being drawn backto the femininity, so I uh as I
say, I tried being a drag queenfor a bit, but then I got very
disappointed when I had to takeit all off again.

(25:53):
So then I decided radicalqueen, you know, because then I
was being readable, and in butthen in the end, then when I met
these lovely trans girls, andin fact I had an affair with one
of them, so and she was verydisappointed because I didn't
want to be with her, I wanted tobe her, really.
Yeah, but they put me on to aGP in Birmingham who asked no

(26:16):
questions about hormones.
Just go in, they said, and tellthem you've come for a repeat
prescription.
And that's what I did.
So, and I started.
So I started self-administeringhormones.

James (26:28):
Oh wow, so with with no kind of medical No, nothing like
that.

Adele (26:32):
No, just wrote the script.
Off you go.

James (26:34):
Yeah, there we go.
So when I was how terrifyingwas that when you first the
first time you got this kind ofbottle and you took it?

Adele (26:44):
Well, actually, it was really nice because by then,
because that the the effect wasquite quick.
Right.
Oh I started to grow breastquite quickly.
Okay.
And I remember I was working inLions Made Ice Cream Factory,
between between jobs, and it hada real hierarchy that men

(27:08):
worked on overseeing themachines, and women worked on
doing all the hard work, youknow.
So I had to look after thesemachines, and I of which I had
no skills whatsoever, but thereI was.
And I was quite open about whatwas happening, and so every
week all the women uh they'dtake me into the ladies' leo,

(27:28):
and I we'd have a weekly titinspection to see how they were
going.
They were all absolutely fineabout it, they were fascinated
and thought it was marvellous.
But then after I left that,then I did start to try, you
know, then I started livingfull-time.
In fact, it was my 21stbirthday that I I um I
transitioned socially.

(27:49):
I took all my men's clothes tothe charity shop.
So by the time I went got downto see uh Dr.
John Randall, the infamous Dr.
John Randall at Charing CrossHospital.
Who was a part of the Corbett,the Corbett case, who was one of
the testified He was not amusedthat I was already on hormones

(28:10):
because he had not assessed me.
He had not decided that I wasworthy.
But anyway, so I went in to fto see him and he said, I
suppose you want me to give youan operation.
And I knew that he had becausesome of the other girls were
already seeing him, I knew howtricky he could be.

(28:31):
So I said, Well, I know you'renot going to give it to me right
now today, obviously.
You're going to so could wetalk today about what you can do
for me?
Which is like, I want I want toapply for a new passport, I
want to apply for a new drivinglicense, I want to apply for
employment, female employmentcards.
We still had them back in thosedays.

(28:52):
And and I need a letter fromyou that I can carry with me.
So if I'm arrested in a women'stoilet, I can say that it's
nervous.
So he he did that, he did thatfor me.
And then I would have to go andsee him and see what and my
understanding had been that itwould be I would see him for uh

(29:13):
two years and then I would go onthe waiting list for surgery,
which would be another year.
So it would be I'd be done,done and dusted in three years,
but it actually took five yearsbecause he and I used to clash
heads so much because he hadsuch a narrow view of what
constituted a woman.

(29:34):
If you were um a lorry driverwhen you went to see him, oh,
you have to give that up andbecome a waitress or a typist.
Oh wow, wow or a nurse, onlyever things that women do.
And um and you had to keep yourhead down, you had to do the

(29:54):
real living test, which you hadto prove you could live in your
role.
So you had to be under theradar, and I suppose his
thinking was well, if you're afemale lorry driver, you'll
you'll stand out.
So uh you know, I can't gaugethe success.
Um, this is the reason I joinedthe civil service.
I had no intention of being acivil servant, I want to be an

(30:15):
act, actress, obviously.
But uh I had to have a regularjob, so I became a civil servant
for five years.
And I have to say they treatedme very well.
They had a non-discriminatorypolicy, and they gave me they
gave me um leave when I had mysurgery in the middle of the
time I was with them.
So that was all very good.
But anyway, I was an executiveofficer, and so I had staff

(30:40):
under me and I had to, you know,give orders to people.
Dr.
Randall said, You you have avery aggressive way of speaking.
I said, I don't think it'saggressive, Dr.
Randall.
I would say it's assertive, butthat is because I'm in a
position of man, you know.
Well, I should watch that if Iwere you, you know, all that
sort of thing.

James (30:59):
And he hated the fact that it was his job to give you
lifestyle advice.

Adele (31:02):
Yes, he hated the fact that I turned up in jeans.
Thought that was veryunladylike.
And uh, I mean, I didn't reallythink I should wear trousers at
all.
Um one another trans womanapparently always used to come
in after me.
She said, I used to sit outthere and listen to you get you
two going at it, hammering toesevery time.

(31:24):
And so consequently, two yearswent into three years.
And at the end of three years,I said, Why, Dr.
Randall?
I'm going to, you know, becauseyou never dared cross him.
You always were trying tosecond guess him just because
you didn't want to upset him incase of anything happened.

James (31:43):
Was there always that feeling that that if you upset
this one man that that couldthat could ruin?

Adele (31:48):
Oh, yes, because there's there was that famous TV
programme, George Julia.
And um Julia went and got a herbreast done while she was still
seeing Dr.
Randall.
He hit the fucking roof oncamera.
Right.
Well, and I think he struck heroff his books for doing it.

(32:11):
Because there's a there's a wayof doing these things, there's
a policy, there's a path wefollow, blah di blah di blah.
And uh so so eventually I askedhim and I said, Why are you not
referring me for surgery?
And he went, Well, you don'treally want it, do you?
I thought, what do you mean?
I refer you to the very firstmeeting we had.

(32:31):
When you I asked you if youwanted surgery, and you said you
didn't.
I said, No, I don't thinkthat's what I said.
I said, I know you're not goingto give it to me now, because I
knew if I'd rushed in there andsaid, if you don't give me
surgery today, I'm going to cutit off, you know, you wouldn't
have had anything to do with me.

James (32:52):
Oh, right, he said.
But this is only because youare so assertive.
You could imagine somebody elsein that scenario being being
left on a completely different.
I would have just carried on.

Adele (33:05):
Yeah, I had to ask him in the end.
Oh, right.
So we thrashed that out.
So I thought then the next timeI went to see him, that he
would then send me off to seethe surgeon.
No, I had to wait another sixmonths.
Yeah.
And eventually, eventually Iwent to got to see the surgeon.
But of course, the waiting listhad grown to two years by then.

(33:26):
So five years seemed an awfullylong time at the time.
Of course, now it's to drop inthe ocean.
And I met somebody recently whohas her trans son has been
trying to get an appointment forsix years just to be seen

(33:46):
initially.
And eventually was seen, wasprescribed uh hormones, and then
his GP refused to fill fill theprescription.
Said no, it's dangerous, Iwon't do it.
Wow.
So now it looks like they'regonna have to go privately to
get it.
You know, she's she's got herMP on board and the rest of it.

(34:07):
So yeah, but there's a there'ssomewhere else, there's
somewhere else in Edinburghthat's suddenly just told all
the trans patients, no, I can'thave it.

Jonathan (34:15):
You know, we think about the the journey of rights
and progress to be onedirectional that we're always
going, it things will ever getbetter.

Adele (34:23):
No, no, and they don't anyway.
After I had the surgery, inwhich Dr.
Dr.
Randall came in to see me inthe hospital and said, And what
do you think of your new vagina?
I said, I think it's beautiful,Dr.
Randall.
He said, Beautiful.
I don't think that is a word Iwould use to describe that

(34:44):
particular part of the body.
So wow.
So um, yes, he was a funny oldm funny old misogynist.
Anyway, I got it done.
And then when he saw that I washappy and successful, then he
threw stuff at me.
I got my breast done for freeon the NHS, I got my jaw done.

(35:06):
Um I uh had to pay for my nose.
They wouldn't do that in theNHS because there wasn't
anything wrong with it really.
But um, well, it was bigger.
I I wanted a different one.
But uh, and he also offered me,he said, Well, you're a bit
tall for a girl, you know.
I love that expression.
Oh, she's a bit tall for agirl.
Yeah.
Um, but uh there is anoperation where you could have a

(35:29):
bit taken out of your femur,and uh and I went, I don't know
if you've noticed, Dr.
Randall, but I've got a verylong body and a big head and
quite short legs in proportion.
So I think if I do that, I willlook very, very weird indeed.
Oh well, it's up to you, youknow.
So uh I imagine that would be asuper painful.

(35:49):
Oh, it is, it's excruciating.
Yeah.
So so um, so meanwhile, so nowI've now I've now transitioned.
And yes.

Jonathan (36:01):
So we're thinking this is 1978?

Adele (36:04):
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
And I'm still not in thetheatre.
So I've when I left the civilservice, I went back to college
for a month, a year, to do adiploma for personal assistance.
I couldn't just do a quicksecretarial course.
No, I must do a diploma.
And uh so did the whole thingwith the you know, uh office

(36:27):
practice economics and thinkingI shall swan into the city and
do lots of lots of temp workwhile I'm waiting.
But if I tell you that I did mytyping exam on an electric
typewriter, you'll know thatcomputers arrive pretty soon
after that.
And uh so that's can you stillbe the shorthand?
Oh, I was good at shorthand.

(36:49):
Yeah, I got got to about 120.
Wow.
Yeah, 55 words a minute typing,that's pretty good.
But when I went into all theagencies, they said, Well, you
haven't got any experience.
So in the end, I ended upgetting another permanent job.
I worked for the cateringmanager of IPC magazines, and he

(37:12):
was a man who had a title butno job.
No, he had a yes, because allthe catering was actually done
by an outside uh catering firmcalled Gardener Merchant.
They used to come in.
All I had to do was compilesome statistics once a month.
And he he often wouldn't comein till lunchtime.
How do I get that job?

(37:35):
He still needed a support ofthe channel.
I mean he was lovely.
His wife had been an actress,so he quite understood my
yearning to be.
He said, Why are you doing thisjob?
Why don't you go off and work,you know, write for one of the
magazines?
I said, I don't want to be awriter, I want to be an actress.
And uh, but because I knew henever came in till 12, I
wouldn't turn up till at least11.

(37:55):
Until one morning he said, Oh,apparently somebody tried to get
hold of me yesterday, and hesaid, Nobody answered the phone,
you know.
And one day he came in anddiscovered that I hadn't yet
arrived.
And I mean he was very nice.
He used to take me up to theexecutive dining room all the
time.
But eventually he said, Adele,you're either going to have to
leave or I'm going to have tosack you because you really are

(38:17):
the worst secretary in theworld.
I quite understand, my dear.
It's not your thing.
But you really do have to go.
And um by that time I wasliving with a young actor whom
I'd been supporting while he gothis uh started his career, and
then he got a nice big job in afilm.

(38:39):
So he said, Well, um, I'llsupport you know, I'll support
you while you look for work.
Because by that time, oh, ofcourse the other whole problem
was the equity card.
Back in the days beforeThatcher smashed the unions, uh,
you couldn't work in thetheatre unless you had an equity
card.
And the criterion for gettingan equity card was somebody had

(39:02):
to offer you a job that camewith an equity card.
But you couldn't really get anequity card if you didn't have a
job.
So it was all a sort ofcatch-22, and there were there
were ways of getting thembecause they took it, they
brought in variety.
So you could you could become amagician's assistant or you
could go to Turkey and do becomea belly dancer or stripping.

Jonathan (39:24):
Have you read Jillinaldo's book, uh Love from
the Pink Palace?
Uh no, I haven't.
So you know it's a sin thatbasically.
I know who she is, yeah.
And it talks a lot about thatjourney of forgetting her equity
card and doing it throughvariety and yeah.

Adele (39:36):
So I did it by I formed a little jazz trio and I had a
residency in an East End pub.
And through that I got my I gotmy equity card.
So by the time my friend wasprepared to support me, I had my
little equity card.
But remember, in those days, anequity card didn't not allow

(39:56):
you to work in the West End.
You had to work for 40 weeksand The provinces before you
were allowed to come into theWest End.
Wow.
Wow.
So that means you had to do alot of wet uh rep, you know, a
weekly rep.
Um, and you probably have to bean assistant stage manager.
I never felt the urge to be astage manager, I have to say.

(40:17):
I just thought, no, just stepstraight on the board.
Because I thought I was afantastic, fantastic actress
back in those days.
I'd I was soon to learn that Ihad a lot to learn.
Cut a long story short, notlong afterwards, I um joined
Fascinating Gaida, and the restis history.

Jonathan (40:37):
And Fascinating Gaida was 1983.

Adele (40:40):
Uh it started in 83 and I joined in 84.
84.

Jonathan (40:44):
Yeah.
And then there was thatFinancial Times review.

unknown (40:47):
Yes.

James (40:47):
Well, before the Financial Times, there was there
was uh your audition, Iunderstand, was uh you were you
were there was a very directquestion asked of you about your
audition.

Adele (40:58):
Yeah, okay.
So the reason I was asked toaudition was I had gone to the
Domar Warehouse to see BatisseRedding, who those of you don't
know, she was a very camp uhblack American woman who would
do her own cabaret show.
And then they had late-nightcabaret, which was really just
starting out.
Alternative cabaret was juststarting as well.

(41:21):
And people from West End showsthat she knew would drop in and
do a number.
And I went along with my friendJohn.
Now, John actually worked forthe Financial Times, uh, which
we'll figure later on.
Uh, and um, but in his sparetime he was a male stripper

(41:42):
called Johnny Fever.
And I he was a comedy stripperthough, because uh he was thin
as a streak of piss, but he wasuh uh but nicely endowed, but
anyway.

James (41:57):
That's the key starting point to be as to be a stripper.

Adele (42:00):
But however, he was a comedy stripper and he asked me
to help him put this acttogether.
So he'd come on as a dirty oldman.
The music would start playing,and he'd come on as a dirty old
man in a dirty old Mac andstuff, and then he'd sort of
whip all that off, andunderneath he was a pre a
Catholic priest, and he'd goaround and bless bless people,
and then he'd rip that off, andunderneath he was in a tux like

(42:23):
James Bond, and then he'd takethat off, and then he had a wet
look t-shirt underneath, andhe'd rip the trousers off, and
he had uh red satin shorts witha great big stonker inside, and
then he would take take thet-shirt off, and then he would

(42:45):
rip the shorts off, and he had abejeweled jock strap on
underneath with this big fakedildo, and then he would sort of
wander around in front ofpeople, and then at a crucial
moment he'd put in and he'dpress a syringe and milk would
spurt out.

Jonathan (43:00):
Oh god.

Adele (43:05):
So it was a very good act, I have to say, and I felt
very proud of it.
But um I went along as hismanager, but actually I was
there to pick up the clothes,all the clothes that he took
off, and also to take the moneybecause the artist should never
handle the money.

Jonathan (43:20):
So you didn't become a stage manager.

Adele (43:22):
So yeah, yeah, well, that was my job, really.
And I got got my own malestripper as a boyfriend out of
it, who who was like the proper,you know, all the goods there.
Um which was very nice for fora while.
He didn't last that long, buthe was very well, it was good
for a while.
Anyway, so John and I had hadum gone along, he was all

(43:43):
dressed in his black leathers,and we went along to the Donmar
warehouse to see Bertiethreading, and afterwards we
stayed on for the cabaret.
And I said to John, I could dothat.
I could do that, you know, I'vedone my residency.
So he sought out Nika Burns,who now owns most of the West
End, but she at that time shewas director of the Donmar.

(44:04):
Uh and also fascinating Ida'sdirector, but she's director of
the Donmar.
And John went up to her andsaid, I just thought you'd like
to know that Adele Anderson, youknow, the jazz singer, is in
the audience tonight.
And we'd love to hear her dojust a couple of those
standards.
She's made so much her own.

(44:25):
And so Nika said, Uh, leave itwith me.
She went to the band and shesaid, Any of you ever worked
with Adele Anderson?
Because they were they'd workwith everybody.
No.
Anybody heard?
No.
She thought, this is a sc is ascam.
But anyway, she was intrigued.
So she came over and she said,Well, I can't put you on tonight
because it's all booked, but ifyou come back next week, I

(44:47):
promise you you'll be able tosing.
So I did.
We went back next week.
And I sang Anything Goes byCole Porter, to which I had
written an even filthier secondverse.
And she liked she liked whatshe heard, and she had it in her
mind she was going to put she'dput me in a double act with a a
busty blonde who wore leopardprint.

(45:08):
But then the more that shethought about it, she thought,
uh no, fascinated by Ada.
So she um because their sopranowas leaving.
So I went along to Dilly'shouse, and yes, they said, What
is your uh vocal range?
And I went, Oh, I don't know,I'll just start at the bottom
and go up.
So I sort of went, you know,all that's that.

(45:35):
I went, Oh, right.
And Nika said, Um there's noeasy way to ask this at Albert,
are you a man?
And I thought for a secondabout it, and I thought, No,
that's the wrong question.
Because I'm not a man, youknow.

(45:55):
I don't I don't really regardmyself that I ever really got to
manliness and say so.
So you did go from boy to boy.
Boy, a boy, to to to sort ofgay to well, I mean, obviously
men and gay uh gay men, but Ijust didn't feel I really got a

(46:18):
gr a grasp on masculinity beforeI left it.
And also I thought, well, Imight never see these people
again.
I'm not going to sit down andtell them my life history.
So we'll see.
So I left.
So I said, no, I left.
Then I got the bloody job, ofcourse.
So um, and I asked my friends,what shall I do?

(46:40):
What should I do?
And they said, No, well, youobviously got it on your on your
merits.
That's fine.
So I naively thought that thatwould be the end of it, but of
course it wasn't.

James (46:48):
Was was that in that moment of being asked that
question?
Was that just, you know, and Ithink all of us as kind of queer
people have that regular comingout moment that repeats over
and over again, going to a newjob, um, going to, you know,
just just in your generalday-to-day life, there's a kind
of almost coming out issomething that happens all the
time.
And how it's come excitedly offthe sort of life story, which

(47:12):
I'm finding really exciting, butyou know, how do you feel about
this ongoing having to come outall the time type thing?

Adele (47:19):
Oh, it's tedious.
Yes, it really is is tedious.
But of course, do you have toremember that I was still Dr.
Randall's uh motive motif wasstealth at all times.
You don't tell.

James (47:35):
You move to a different town, you the people that had
transitioned and moved toAmerica, that was kind of his
idea of what you should do.

Adele (47:43):
Absolutely, yes, yes, and make no reference to oh, also
of course, his big thing was ifyou had a partner, if you had a
wife, he would not even s beginto treat you before you unless
you got a divorce.
Wow.
So that was absolutely yeah.
Because um, and there anyway,so that's neither here nor

(48:04):
there.
But then, yes, we went to theEmer Festival, and by that time
the the German song, as it'scalled, Lieder, doesn't matter
if you sing out a tune so longas your German song had been
written.
And we did it with you with youknow, like Sally Bowles in
Cabaret and uh lots of BobFossey movements and stuff.

(48:26):
And there was this review inthe Financial Times that said
Adela Anixen could easilyconvince me that she's a slinky
transvestite in a Berlin bar,which actually is a compliment.
It meant I'd done the jobprobably, but of course I
immediately took it the wrongway and burst into tears.

(48:46):
And then the other girl said,Well, don't get up.
We've we know, we've known fora long time.

James (48:52):
And you didn't know that they knew.

Adele (48:54):
I didn't know that they knew.
They all knew.
Apparently, there'd been, ohgod, so many discussions going
on behind my back.
So they they managed um the youknow, the agency wanted to sack
me.
Uh I think Nika might wanted tosack me, I don't know.
But Dilly, because she's a cusslike that, she went, no, she's

(49:16):
absolutely right for the group.
And uh I've often wonderedwhether Fascinating Ida would
have got more mainstream tellyif I hadn't been in the group.
Because I know certainly wewere booked to do a Daily Mail
fashion spread, can you believe?
And then they discovered aboutme and then they cancelled it.
And um, I remember we did go onWogan, but Wogan made sure I

(49:39):
was as far away from him aspossible, you know, and to us
talked to the other two.
So I don't know, but luckily umnobody's complained about it
since then.
But so we went to the Observer,Henry Noble at the Observer,
and we wrote, I had this veryshort piece, nothing to see

(50:00):
here, you know, etc.
etc.
And we tried to make the wholething go.
We just said she's a woman now,she it's a we're a three-woman
group, and uh go away.

James (50:13):
So sorry, was that was that you was that a denial, or
was that you saying, yeah, uh Iam her.

Adele (50:19):
I think we're saying nothing to see here.
Right, okay.
She's now a woman, so what'sthe big stream?
We are a three-woman group, andthat's it.
Um I mean, occasionally itwould still rear itself.
We got we got um sponsorshipfrom the Bank of Ireland in the
80s, there was so much moneyabout.
Got sponsorship with our ownrover car to drive about, which

(50:41):
I which I pluloined because theother two already had cars and I
didn't.
And um we used to have to go tothese dreary receptions after
the after our shows.
That's that's that's the side,the cost of the money here.
I remember this guy saying, Um,excuse me, my dear, do you mind
if I do something?
I said, Well, I don't know.

(51:02):
And he um and he reached outand he stroked my face down
here.
And he turned to his wife, hesaid, There you are.
I told you she's got skin likeporcelain.
I knew exactly what he wasabout what he was about.
But you can't say anythingbecause uh I was reminded of
when I was much feistier when Iwas young, and I went to a

(51:23):
party, and this girl said to me,Excuse me, I don't mean to be
rude.
And I said, No, but you'regoing to be, aren't you?
I'm not going to be rude, butso um that was all fine.
And then there was the otherbig debacle when I ended up on
on a double page spread of thenews of the world through my own
hubris, I have to say.

(51:45):
Young ones, learn and takenote.
We were approached by ajournalist who said they were
from the Sunday Mirror, I think.
And he said, You always getinterviewed together, all three
of you.
I want to do a different piece.
I want to speak to each of youindividually about each other.

(52:08):
And about, you know, eachother.
So we went, oh yeah, all right.
I've never thought anythingabout it.
So he interviewed Dilly and whowould it have been then?
Uh Denise, I think.
Yes.
For about ten minutes each.
Never used them, theinterviews.
Then he took me out to dinner.
Never drink with a journalist.

(52:32):
This is my message.
Never drink with a journalistbecause loose lips.
Adele's saying this verydirectly.
Very directly.
Never, never, never.
Katie can't say she has tea.

James (52:45):
Yes.
Because it's half past one inthe afternoon right now, and
there is no.

Adele (52:51):
What happened was that we were about to go back to
Australia for our second bigtour.
And we'd already been there forone tour.
And I had had having been veryfearful of going to Australia.
Because my father and I dideventually reconcile, by the
way.
And he seemed to be on boardwith my being trans, so much so

(53:14):
that when he had to flee thecountry for tax reasons, and he
was the last, he was on the verylast £10 palm boat that went to
Australia.
Because that's all he couldafford.
Uh, he went over there and hewas he lived there for uh and he
asked me if I wanted to go withhim.
And I all I knew aboutAustralia was that it was full

(53:35):
of male uh, you know, misogynistpigs, so uh and creatures that
want to murder you.

James (53:40):
Yes, I thought every animal in Australia wants to go
with you.

Adele (53:43):
But when I went to Australia in the in 1986, I had
the greatest love and affair ofmy life while I was there.
And also a lot of other sexwhile I was there.
It was fantastic.
Australian men just adored meand I adored them.
And I was f single, you know,that's fine.

(54:04):
But when the article came outOh, and I didn't want this
journalist to think that, youknow, that I was live the life
of a nun, or that that nobodywanted to have sex with me
because I was a trans woman.
I said, on the country, youknow, on the country.
So then when I got toAustralia, they suddenly decided

(54:27):
to photograph me on the stepsof the Sydney Opera House.
Fine.
Why didn't they photograph mewhen I was in there?
Because they were syndicatingit.
You know, not only was it inEngland, it was in Australia as
well.
And there was a big double-pagespread that said, Sex is so
much better, now I'm not a man,says cabaret star Adele

(54:51):
Anderson.
Which actually, when you thinkof some of the stuff that
appears in the newspaper todayfrom you know, young Love
Islanders and all that, it wasreally very mild.
All it's hope was, yes, I had alot of sex, like Miriam
Margley's.
I mean, I don't mean I had sexwith Miriam Margleys, I mean
like Miriam Margley's.
You put it here first.

(55:13):
And uh, but my God, the girlswere furious with me, quite
rightly, furious with me.
You know, why?
Why do you do?
And I think it was because wewere I was felt that like I'd
been kept on a tight rein.

(55:34):
Right.
I wasn't allowed to talk aboutit.

James (55:37):
Also kept on that reign by yourself?
Do you think you was uhreserved help back yourself as
much as anything else?

Adele (55:46):
Yes, yeah.
But I'd also, I think it wasabout the same time, I made a
documentary for my friend ChrisClark called Sex Change Shock
Horror Probe, which just gotreissued quite recently,
actually.
And in which she she's a transfilmmaker, she interviewed

(56:08):
several trans women of alldifferent sorts of people.
She did or she or uh uhinterviewed a bus driver.
Or Dr.
Randall wouldn't have likedher.
Oh, I was gonna say uhStephanie Ann Lloyd, who started
up a lucrative business calledTransformation, where men could
come in and have the whole transturning into a woman

(56:31):
experience, you know, with fakeboobs and bust and not
necessarily for transgenderpeople, but for you know,
transvestites.
But you know, if you happenedto have big feet and you were
transgender, you could get youknew you could get shoes there
and that sort of thing.
So she was a business woman.
She had a husband who was herbusiness partner.

(56:52):
How did that happen?
I think they just decided theywere they were husband.
Uh and then there was a aLabour counsellor, and she bent
over backwards to make it clearthat she did not consider that
she uh had the right same rightsas as her uh her sisters uh in

(57:13):
you know in the left-wingmovement because because you
know so there was such a mixtureof people, and I uh was
infascated, yeah.
I was uh was interviewed and Isaid I said I find this attitude
that we are not welcome in thewomen's movement to be uh weird

(57:41):
uh uh because if they say thatwe're not real women, we don't
understand what women have beenthrough.
Well, if we were uh in thewomen's movement, we would have
more of an understanding.
No, you'd come in and you takeover the movement.
Well, uh if we took over themovement, what would we do with
it?
It would be a differentmovement.

(58:01):
I mean, so it just didn't makeany sense to me.
And uh when it was shownrecently at the Prince Charles
Cinema, the the definitely theyoung trans people really took
that on board and thought thatwas a that was a good point.

James (58:15):
But um and and that debate hasn't gone away.
In fact, if anything, it's goteven more toxic than yes, it
looks like trans people aren'twelcome anywhere.

Adele (58:25):
You know, a lot of a lot of gay uh men don't like us, a
lot of uh lesbians don't likeus.
So um so we're gonna have tobuild up our own movement now as
we grow in numbers, which wewill.

Jonathan (58:40):
Do you see yourself as a pioneer?

Adele (58:43):
I think I was I'm more now, I'm much more out now.
Because there's there's more ofa story to come, obviously.
But than I was no, I didn'tthink of myself as a pioneer
then because there were othergirls around me who were who
were doing the same thing.
They just didn't become famous.

(59:05):
Well, I say I'm famous.
If people say, Are you famous?
I say, well, if you've heard ofme, I'm famous.
And if you haven't, I'm not.
You know.
So I'll see you're famous.
That's your famous, simplesimple as that.
So uh a pioneer, people say,Oh, yes, uh, because nobody was
doing it.
I said, Well, they were doingit, they definitely were doing

(59:26):
it, and they were doing it bothways, because when I was in
there, there was a there was ayoung um trans man having his
top surgery.

Jonathan (59:33):
Okay.

Adele (59:33):
Uh in there.
So, yeah, no, it was definitelyall going on back then.
But even back then, the uhdepartment at at Charincos was
under attack from people whosaid this is a waste of NHS
money, and they were alwaysthreatening to close down the
department, which is why Randallwas so careful, he didn't want

(59:55):
to have any failures, he didn'twant anybody to come back and
tell him that they.
regretted doing what it so hehad his attitude was if you can
get through me things you knowit'll be alright so uh and I
think actually on the whole hewas he was right because it was
not a rush job you really had toyou really had to work for it

(01:00:16):
yeah yeah and and and imagine atthe time you wanted this yeah
now but then you when I s evenas I say it I think it sounds a
bit like well I got beaten atschool it didn't do me any harm
you know so that's what youshould expect whereas a p rather
rather than being morecertainly more compassionate
which I think is the way yeahgoing now society seems to have
fallen down is it's compassionpassion yeah but I think the

(01:00:39):
compassion is draining awayagain now that's what I mean so
we'll see yeah but we der wederate I think we der I derailed
the story a little bit on umafter the news of the world
peace after the conversationswith um oh yes yeah so it was um
but I remember and I rememberhaving to tell my friend whom

(01:01:04):
I'd known for many many yearswho was a school teacher she's
she she said my colleaguesbrought the paper in because
they know and I said absolutelydenied it I said I've known her
for years of course she isn'tI've seen her naked you know and
I said I'm totally sorry butI'm gonna have to confess up and
that was I felt wretched aboutthat because I'd been a member

(01:01:28):
I'd been friends with her familyand her sisters you know for
years and uh that was that wasuh tricky but uh no I had a
couple of boy I'd had a coupleof boyfriends in the past who
when they found out I would fitwell one of them finished with

(01:01:49):
me and I finished with the otherone.

James (01:01:52):
I thought I'm not going through you know after the first
one finished me because I'dsort of shattered his dream of
who I was when the second oneasked me I went that's it it's
over he told me years later hesaid he said I don't know why
you did that he said I was onlyasking this all part of the the

(01:02:12):
trauma that we all carry with usin our own various ways.

Adele (01:02:16):
Yeah yeah um well anyway things settled down again and
again we went back to just youknow there's nothing nothing to
see here and Dilly wrote and youwrote this amazing song well
that came a lot later and it washer who pushed me to do it she
saw she's she's a genius thatwoman I will you know and she is

(01:02:38):
the best trans ally that youcould ever have can you tell us
the first verse of it oh when Iwas a little child of maybe
three or four I looked into themirror and I hated what I saw I
didn't like my flannel shorts myshirt and tie and vest I was
incorrectly dressed yeah I meanobviously it's a stereotypical

(01:03:03):
picture but um that is how Ilooked actually in my shorts and
my school uniform andeverything.
And and it's called prisoner ofgender.
I was a prisoner of gender amartyr to my sex neither a
bender nor a boy with bulgingpecs somehow we're allowed to
say words like bender and nobodygets upset with us.

(01:03:25):
So you guys get away with a lotand have done for a long time
in anything um but no I was uhvery reluctant she just saw that
there was a the sea changecoming I think things you know
like Nadia had one big brotherand I think she felt it was time
and it would be it would befine and that we had enough

(01:03:49):
track record behind us that itwasn't going to hurt the group
and actually it would in enhanceus.
So she said look let's justhave a go let's just see what we
come up with.
So we wrote a little bit andthen we I went oh so she put it
away in a drawer and then abouta year later it sort of
reappeared and anyway eventuallyI think it was when Chechnya

(01:04:14):
started you know and people werebeing thrown off high buildings
and you know burned alive and Isaid I thought I live in a
country where nobody is going todo that to me.

James (01:04:25):
Well so far everybody we don't know what's to come but um
so I will uh and I can speakfor the truth and nobody is
going to you know uh punish mefor it and it was amazing I've

(01:04:45):
had lots of standing ovationsand it doesn't matter whether we
do it in the Shires or whetherwe do it in Liverpool I've done
it in Liverpool in Glasgow um inHull and then I've also done it
in you know Godalming andplaces like that and to and uh I

(01:05:07):
remember my friend was was wasin the audience right and this
woman said to her friend why whyis she singing this song about
trans women what's good what'sgoing on there and the other one
went well well she is transthat's what what she is I'm sure
no no no I mean I'm surethere's there's lots of versions

(01:05:30):
of this on YouTube that peopleshould should definitely go and
see right away but but one thatI saw um recently had some
amazing comments underneath andone of them was you know they
they saw you perform this theythey spoke to you afterwards and
it's and it's given them thecourage to to move forwards on
their own transition their ownjourney and do you feel almost
like a role model with the stagethat you have this the ability

(01:05:53):
to sing songs like this to talkto other people that are in your
situation but some years uhsome years younger who you oh
yes I do now yes when AprilAshley died sadly my manager ran
my producer rang up and saidwell you're the Queen Mother now
darling and a mantle you'vetaken on I'm sure so yes suffer

(01:06:18):
the little ones to come to me umbecause I want them to know
although I've I feel that thingsare very bad at the moment I
want them to know that lifeisn't about being miserable life
is about joy I mean when themoment I transitioned I my anger

(01:06:42):
left me forever.

Adele (01:06:43):
I find it very very difficult to get angry about
anything and if I do feel itrising up I can squash it back
down.
I really dislike conflict oranything like that.

James (01:06:55):
And I also another telling thing was that my best
my best friend that I did themaids with he said when I'd
heard you transitioned I thoughtoh no not a another bloody mask
because I always felt I neverreally knew you I was talking to
a mask and there was somethinggoing on behind but I didn't
know what it was and I thoughtoh no did you feel that did you

(01:07:16):
feel you were putting on a on aface that you've now been able
to lift I suppose no I don'tthink I did because well you're
so engrained self-awareness asyeah I mean you just sort of
live with it but he said andthen when I see you now he said
I realise this the mask is goneand it's you know there you are
which was like the nicest thinganybody ever said to me I think

(01:07:40):
and so in that sense you talkedabout your you are 18 that you
took an overdose of paracetamolwhat would you if you could
speak to 18 year old you now andsort of go back in time and be
the voice from above what wouldwhat would what would you say to
yourself?

Adele (01:07:59):
I would say um well don't do it obviously it's a it's a
silly thing to do and that Imean a lot of people do it
because they're bullied bullyingwill stop unless it happens to
be one of your a member of yourown family you know I mean April

(01:08:19):
Ashley for instance had wasbullied horrendously by her her
own family her parents hersiblings and she had to get out
and then she went into themerchant navy and she got
bullied there so that's when shetook her overdose I wasn't

(01:08:42):
actually being bullied atuniversity.
I think my friend Shelley putsit best when she when she speaks
of her overdose she said Ididn't want to die but I just
didn't know how to live and Ijust thought I was so confused
about this and I I kind of neverreally didn't want to be

(01:09:02):
attracted to men obviously but Ijust thought it's such a
problem it's such a problem andmy father's reason was always oh
homosexual people have such adifficult life if there was any
way that I could spare you thatthat was his way of saying it
then I was going to doeverything in my power to you

(01:09:23):
know I said well it didn'treally look like work like that
it didn't really spare meanything in the end um I would
say no if you can keep going Imean there are so many more
things out there now this allthe the on social media toxicity
and uh and gangs of peopleluring trans teens and stabbing

(01:09:45):
them and it's just awfulhorrendous and also I do feel
sad or concerned for young transpeople because not just because
of the puberty blocker businessbecause I I didn't have puberty
blockers and lots and lots ofus didn't but because they're

(01:10:07):
having to wait such such a longtime and now they you know they
can't get any treatment unlesssome other person who isn't
trans you know they're but whyaren't they more trans
psychologists?
You know they should reallyshould be I remember when uh
some years ago my trans my uh GPtried to take me off my Easter

(01:10:29):
or at least get get switch it tosomething else I said why he
said well at your age you'd begoing through the menopause I
said yeah but since I never wentthrough female puberty the same
rules don't apply I said do youknow anything about plants
health and he went no I saidwell why don't you go and read
up about it and meanwhile I'llcarry on taking them thank you
very much I said because if youonce again the assertiveness

(01:10:52):
when you've learned something inthe because I said if you take
me off within a year I will bepresenting with galloping
osteoporosis and then you'llhave a big problem on your hand
and I'd rather avoid that thankyou very much.

James (01:11:05):
Oh right he said so uh yeah that was it Adele this has
been a phenomenal time I've I'velearned so much you've inspired
me you've entertained me andand I've I've I've had tears in
my eyes at parts of this andjust thank you for being so open
with us.
This has been an extraordinaryfor me piece of history of our

(01:11:29):
community and I'm so gratefulfor you spending the time with
us today.

Jonathan (01:11:33):
Thank you my child we will genuinely when we stand up
here of course there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement but the
political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.

James (01:11:56):
If you enjoyed this episode please consider
subscribing and leaving a reviewas well as sharing the word on
social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history

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S1E5: Adèle Anderson - Radical Queen to Trans Trailblazer

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S1E5: Adèle Anderson - Radical Queen to Trans Trailblazer