S1E6: The Bloolips - How Queer Theatre Fought Back

We sit down with Stuart Feather, Paul Shaw, and Lavinia Co‑op to trace the raw and often outrageous path from the Gay Liberation Front’s early meetings at the LSE to the Bloolips’ radical drag that rattled London, conquered Amsterdam, and charmed New York.

We revisit the infamous Festival of Light action at Methodist Central Hall, featuring slow handclaps, boxed mice under pews, can‑canning “nuns,” a balcony banner crowning “Cliff for Queen”, and a drag confession of being “saved” that froze an entire audience. 

This is queer theatre as a weapon - light, frothy, and full of tap‑dancing, but carrying the punch that keeps movements alive.

Subscribe, share with a friend and leave a review telling us the boldest act of creative resistance you’ve ever witnessed.

This episode was hosted by Jonathan Chambers and James Alexander

Editing by Hannah Stewart

Music: Mystify created by AlterEgo

Visit our website, https://tvfh.co.uk

Follow us on Instagram, https://www.instagram.com/theviewfromherepodcast

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund hit on the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Equality, and for some peoplein Stonewall like me, equality

(00:24):
was kind of like what you got toas a starting point.

James (00:27):
Welcome to The View From Here, the podcast that explores
the lives of key people in theLGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm James, and I'm Jonathan.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.

Jonathan (00:41):
Today we're joined by Stuart Feather, Paul Shaw, and
Lavinia Co op, all veterans ofthe Blue Lips, the radical drag
performance collective, whosework challenged gender norms and
political complacency.

James (00:53):
We talk to them about the Blue Lips and their tours to
Europe and America, and Stuartshares details of his time in
the Gay Liberation Front, withstories about the first public
protest in the UK at hybridfields, and protest against the
homophobic Festival of Light.
It's a wild, joyful ridethrough the queer theatre,
radical drag, and subversivestorytelling.

Jonathan (01:13):
This is an adult podcast exploring an often
difficult period of LGBTQhistory.
And as such, this seriescontains discussions of suicide,
conversion therapy, homophobia,transphobia, drug use, strong
language, and graphic sexualdescriptions.
It also has a lot of joy andlaughs along the way.

James (01:58):
It's the first one we've done with more than one person
we're interviewing.
So we're excited to have allthree of you here.
Buckle up, everybody.
Yeah.
So maybe we'd just get startedby each of you introducing
yourselves, tell us a little bitabout your early life and where
and where you what what got youinto performing in activism?

Stuart Feather (02:20):
Um my name is Stuart Feather.
I joined the Gay LiberationFront three weeks in, as far as
I can reckon, but definitely inOctober 1970 at the LSE.
I was immediately captivated bywhat was being said by there
was uh, I don't know, 40 peoplein the room.

(02:44):
Uh they were the kind of peopleI I I didn't recognise as being
gay at all, especially I meanamong the men.
Uh they were all sort oflong-haired, uh bearded students
uh that I'd never seen in gaybars.
And the women uh they were allin their twenties as well,
mainly in their twenties.

(03:05):
I was 30 at the time.
Uh the women uh were sort ofshort hair and uh maybe a few
years older than me.
And uh the thing that reallymoved me uh was this woman who
was in charge of newcomers andasked us to think about how we

(03:31):
uh to think about the games weplay to keep our sexuality
secret at work.
And that and that triggeredsomething in me, I think also
from um what I was gatheringthat we you know we should be
proud of our sexuality and soon.
And I saw all these games Iplayed, like a movie strip that

(03:56):
just sort of went through myhead, and I felt really ashamed
about it.
And I thought, well, uh how canyou how can I be proud to be
gay if I'm so um uh feeling soguilty about what I do that I
can't be honest with otherpeople.
Um so that was a start for me.

Lavinia Co-op (04:18):
I'm the Vinya co-op and uh from the Blue Lips,
and that's my drag name.
My name's Vin Mian, and I wasbrought up in Hackney, Irish
parents, Catholic.
So um coming out was never knewanything about it at school,
didn't realise what hormonalchanges I was going through.

(04:41):
The boys alienating you, youdidn't know what was going on,
and then one day you sort offound your way and thought, my
God, uh, the back of LiverpoolStreet station, having a wank
with someone, and you go, Ohwow, oh dear, it's this is
pretty real.
So from that very old.

(05:04):
Yeah, so it's that sort ofcoming from absolute not knowing
anybody whatsoever, uhisolated, scared, thinking of it
as a disease, not knowinganything about it, and going, oh
wow, bit by bit.
So that's sort of the beginningof um some form of activism is

(05:25):
going to a cottage, the toiletis it activist.

Jonathan (05:29):
Before or after the wank at the back of Liverpool
Street Station, did you have aword for that?
Did you did you know the wordhomosexual?
Did you I mean it's probablypre-the use of the word gay, I
guess.
But did you was there was therea vocabulary that you had that
you could identify yourselfwith?

Lavinia Co-op (05:44):
Well, just you're queer.
Yeah.
Which was like, you know, a badword.
It's it's dirty.
I mean, there's the queerfellow with the Irish, you know,
there's and the oddity of it,there's something like that.
But finding two girls fromschool were being nurses, and
they had uh uh magazines from uheducational, and I thought, my

(06:06):
god, this is Don One.
Don One loves a lot of women.
Oh, I love women, I thinkthey're great, but it wasn't
happening in my you know,growing up.
There was no passion.
So sometimes this wordhomosexual turned up, and you
go, oh my god, what is this?
It's an uh alien thing to meentirely.

(06:28):
I didn't have a clue.
So it's going from I'm justemphasizing going from that
absolute starkness of lifebefore coming along to gay
liberation, um, eventuallyworking in the theatre as a
dresser and going up GLF,finding the GLF, couldn't
believe what an open door washappening, hundreds of people in
Notting Hill Gate that werecompletely all different kinds

(06:50):
of people.
It was unbelievable.
And as a hippie coming out aswell, the whole idea of what you
were wearing, the whole thewhole beginning of health food,
uh, the planet, all the so manyideas.
Never mind women's liberation,men's liberation, gay

(07:11):
liberation, but anyway.

Paul Shaw (07:12):
So my name's Paul Shaw, and I've also been in the
Blue Lips for quite a while,some while ago now, but um,
under the name Precious Pearl.
And um I mean, I suppose itstarted for me, I mean, it this
maybe going too far back, butanyway, in Australia, I was kind
of packed off to Australia bymy parents when I was about 18.
I thought it was my idea at thetime, but only recently I've

(07:33):
realized that I was prompted togo.
But anyway, I went to Australiaand I was just kind of
wandering around because I wasobviously too much trouble.
And um and I ended up wanderingaround uh Tasmania apart from
any other places, and um and Imet this American surfer called
Fred.
And uh and I hadn't had anysexual experiences at all when I
was 18, and uh because I'd justbeen far too terrified to even

(07:57):
kind of you know contemplatewhether I was this, that, or the
other.
And um and then he jumped ontop of me one morning, you know,
when we were in Melbourne,which was wonderful.
Never suddenly, oh, everythingfell into place.
I thought suddenly I know why,you know, like who I am or
something.
It's like this is why it's likeit is, but anyway, I um from
there, I mean he was you know,everybody was all the young

(08:20):
people were wandering aroundAustralia at that time.
So I thought I might meet himagain if I went to Sydney.
So I went to Sydney and I metsomebody who I lived with for
several years there.
And around about that time, itwas the beginning of Gay Lib in
Australia.
So I what was his name?
Dennis Altman.
You remember his name?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's Dennis Altman, who hadthis rather fabulously

(08:42):
attractive boyfriend and stuffanyway, and I kind of met them
very fleetingly at this party ina university in Sydney.
And so, you know, I was uh thatwas the beginning of it for me,
that awareness that there wasthis thing of a you know kind of
beginnings of a gay movementand stuff.
And eventually I came back toLondon to go to art school, and

(09:04):
I did art school and did thosethings, and you know, did a few
fairly conventional things tosort of get my career going as a
as a theatre designer.
But then I met Bet throughStuart and um you know, and
ended up living with Bet.
I mean, basically, I wasbreaking up with my boyfriend,
and I went to see Stuart, and Iwas saying I really needed

(09:24):
somewhere to live.
And did he know of anybody whohad a room to live?
And Bet came by.
Do you remember that when Betcame by?
And um and he'd just beenburgled.
He was in this flat, which hadbeen taken over by the housing
trust, which was all completelyfalling apart.
They put up the scaffoldingoutside for essential repairs,
and everybody got burgled, so hewas freaked out and he had this

(09:46):
big rambling flat.
So anyway, I went to live withhim there.
He was very strict when I firststarted living with him.
You know, he said to me, youknow, the first time that he
came round to Stuart's and youknow, found us there, and I, you
know, realised I was lookingfor that, and he said, Well, you
can come stay with me.
And um, you know, I got sat onthis kind of kitchen bar stool,

(10:06):
and he said, The first time Ihave to clean up after you're in
the bathroom, that's it, you'reout.
And uh so anyway, that's how itall started.
And then one Sunday, you know,it was that kind of moment when
it was, you know, it felt, youknow, mum was jumping into bed
with lots of different peoplelike we all do when we're young
and all of that, and it's allterribly exciting.

(10:26):
So, and I didn't think verymuch of it, to be absolutely
honest.
Um, you know, one morning Ijumped into bed with Bert, and
we had the other morning in bed,which was great, and um, you
know, and then we were carriedon doing the things we were
doing, we were both seeing otherpeople, you know, and then
gradually it became more andmore like we were sort of a
couple.
But Vin uh Bette had obviouslybeen with Stuart in the early

(10:49):
gay movement.
I think he was a he joined alittle bit later than you,
didn't he?

Stuart Feather (10:52):
A few months later, yes.

Paul Shaw (10:54):
Yeah, so you know, and Bette was quite an
extraordinary kind of person.
He was, you know, it was Imean, he probably was he and
John Church were the firstprofessional um, you know,
equity actors, I think, to comeout, to my knowledge, you know,
and it may well be that Bettewas like the first one to make
it plain, and that's why headopted the name Betty, so that

(11:16):
everybody would know that he wasgay from the first
introduction, and he adopted itthen as his professional name,
you know.
So anyway, we lived together.
He started the Blue Lips, andthe Blue Lips went on tour.
They came back from the firsttour, and um, you know, um,
they'd had a really uh well in Idon't know, would would you uh

(11:37):
I don't know, well you were onthat first tour, wasn't it?
So it was really hard.
And when, you know, they weresleeping wrapped up in the back
backdrop beside the motorway andthat sort of thing.
And um and you were on thattour as well, weren't you?
And uh so when they got gotback to London, the group broke
up.
And I I was pursuing all theseother design things while Bet
was doing this, and we were, youknow, having lots of nice sex

(11:58):
and all of that.
And um and anyway, when he cameback to London, um the group
pretty well sort of fell apart.
Uh a bunch of people left, andhe'd already taken out all these
contracts to go back to Germanyon what proved to be the first
Blue Lips tour to actually makeany money, which was the glue
which held the whole companytogether because we couldn't

(12:19):
earn any money in this country.
And um so he had to gettogether a bunch of people very
quickly.
So he's you know, he just toldme to get my tap shoes on and
sort of, you know, become a bluelip.
So that's how it happened, youknow.
So I was just sort of throwninto the middle of it all, which
was an extraordinaryexperience, you know, and but it
was wonderfully exciting.

James (12:40):
And then I mean I just want to stick on early like just
for saying before we move on tothe blue lips, but you know,
you lived in Australia.
Did you find Australia to be amuch more liberal place than
here from a kind of gayperspective, or was it you
didn't have so much experiencehere by the time you went over?

Paul Shaw (12:56):
I it was very kind of liberating in Australia in the
sense that it's very kind ofopened out.
I mean, it's an Anglo-Saxonculture, but it's in the sun.
And somehow or another, it justseems to create this whole
atmosphere of sort of, you know,cheap champagne and orange
juice and everybody having fun.
You know what I mean?
Endless brunch parties, and youknow, you go to a party, I

(13:17):
don't know, you know, at kind of11 o'clock in the morning and
you'd start drinking, and thenyou know, you'd end up going to
somebody's late night party, andyou realise you spent the whole
time going from one party toanother, and you know, at three
o'clock in the morning you werestill drinking, and then you got
up and went to work the nextday.
It was extraordinary.
But it was very opened out, itwas very sort of free and easy,

(13:38):
it felt.
I mean, there obviously musthave been a lot of you know, um,
kind of anti-gay prejudice, butI mean, going to this event at
the university and then livingwith who I did live with in
Australia, I mean, he was Imean, he was older than me, so
it was a fairly old-fashionedkind of set in a way.
I mean, it was all these sortof television executives, and

(13:59):
you know, they all called eachother these uh names like Trina
and the Duchess and all of thiskind of stuff, and you know, and
um, but they were very madqueens, you know, and they were
pretty out in their work, evenbefore um uh, you know, this
beginning of Gay Lib.
And there was a very famousdrag ball which was held in held

(14:19):
in Sydney, and it wasabsolutely massive, and all of
these queens would come in theseincredible outfits and stuff
like that, and it was so I don'tknow, there's something sort of
more opened out generally aboutthe kind of feeling in
Australia, I think.
There's a great feeling ofairiness about it, which you
don't get in this country.
It's much more kind of naileddown.
So for me, coming from a familywhich was pretty heavy and

(14:43):
intense, it was justextraordinary, you know.
Um uh it was amazing.
But I was glad to come back tothis country because it had the
course that I wanted to do.
Right.
But it was wonderful inAustralia, yeah, it was great.

James (14:54):
I don't think we heard much about your early life in
your intro, which I would loveto hear a bit more about.
When did you first, I guess,realise you were gay?
When when did you you talkedabout not being out at work?
I'd like to explore a bit moreof your of your early life
there.

Stuart Feather (15:10):
Well, when I was about 15, I discovered uh the
cottages in York, and then thatled on to me meeting uh John
Chesterman.
Uh and he was 16 and I uh no, Iwas 16 and he was 19, and we
met in this uh loo uh next doorto the Labour Exchange in York.

(15:34):
And uh we did it just once, andthen um I think both of us
wished we'd we'd made somearrangement and we hadn't.
But I bumped into him in thisdepartment store in York that
Christmas.
This was in September when Imet him, and he was there with
his m mother and his sister.

(15:56):
Um but he managed to get her tomake some excuse and disappear
for a few moments, and he camedown into the glassware
department, I remember, and anduh we made a date uh very
swiftly, and that led to fouryears of um a relationship,

(16:17):
which eventually became open,obviously.
And uh he he was studyingarchitecture at Leeds and and
got a job uh when he qualifiedin Doncaster uh and moved to
Huddersfield as to I managed toget a job because I was a clerk
on uh well I had been, I mustsay become um an apprentice

(16:44):
engineer.
Not that I wanted that, Iwanted to go to art school, but
my parents wouldn't let me.
And uh and I found myself attechnical college and then on
the shop floor, and the day theWolfenden report came out in the
newspaper, um John and I uh uhagreed to meet at lunchtime uh

(17:09):
in the Minster Gardens in York,and we were both to collect
newspapers uh that morning, andI say two from one news agent
without trying to raise anysuspicion about the reason for,
and and a couple more in anotherand so on.
And then we met up uh and wentthrough all these papers and

(17:32):
putting them into piles for oragainst and stuff like that.
And two apprentice engineerscame along on their bikes and
saw us and saw the papers.
And when I got back to thefactory after lunch, uh the the
entire factory were waiting forme.

(17:53):
Um and uh it was just, youknow, they were roaring with um
uh hatred and disapproval, andyou know, and the foreman did
absolutely nothing about it.
And the immediate effect wasthat I was um reduced from this
milling machine that I wasoperating very efficiently, and

(18:16):
put onto this weedy littlemachine of which there was an
operative, and uh so there wasreally no work for the two of us
on this one machine.
So I got fed up with that andbroke my apprenticeship and got
a job with British Railways.
Um so I was e able to transferto Huddersfield, um, and there

(18:43):
we became continued as a couple,um, but met lots of people.
We first lived in the in thetown's uh bo uh theatrical
boarding house, uh, which waskind of nice uh and free and
easy.

Jonathan (19:00):
So that was that would have been 1957?

Stuart Feather (19:03):
Uh that yes, oh 1958.

Jonathan (19:06):
58.

Stuart Feather (19:07):
Yeah.

Jonathan (19:08):
You know, I think lots of young people today, and one
of the reasons why we want to dothis is so that people who are
of our generation that havenever experienced what you
describe understand where we'vecome from.
Lavinia, there's a fantasticinterview with you on BBC
Sounds, and you very brieflytalk about, you don't go into

(19:28):
detail, and I'm hoping I canbring you into some more detail
here, about what life was likefor out-gay people or any gay
people in the 1960s and 70s.
And I wonder if you can sharesome of your experiences of that
time.

Lavinia Co-op (19:45):
Yeah, in the 60s there was no out.
You're right.
I mean, by this by 68 and 69,uh, there was a liberality going
around, and there was thebeginning of the well starting
to discover places, you thought,oh, that's that's the Liverpool
Street.
Toilet, oh that's sh um ohworking in the theatre.
Oh, these are gay people.

(20:05):
Um that's interesting.
I'd never met any gay people.
Uh was that true also all thetime that you were at the place?
Or would you have a lot ofpeople?
And then when I went to danceschool, but you see, we'd had
gay liberation, and that reallyturned me on because to gay
liberation, I went to uh umteacher training college and I'd
had that experience in the inthe Gay Lib and working in the

(20:28):
theatre.
When I went to teacher trainingcollege, I realized that they
were all like homophobe, niceCatholics from Liverpool, and I
about faced, and after about sixweeks, but I had this ground.
I couldn't believe it.
I had a ground to go there, andso I went and thought, sod it,
I'm a butterfly now, I'm agrasshopper, it's okay because

(20:49):
life was so like on the edge,you didn't know what you uh
where you were going.
I mean, I'd been completelyslaughtered in a sense that I
wasn't going to be a teacherteaching drama and art or
something.
But I thought, go the otherway, fuck it, go and do um
theatre or art because youbelieve in it, rather than going
to a teacher training.
Anyway, so never mind.

(21:10):
Oh God, I got out of there andI managed to get a job as the
dresser again.
I couldn't believe it.
I was living in the West.
No, coming from when you thinkof um oh, up there in Bayswater,
um, all the bed sits, the waythe homosexuals were in society,
it was very hidden.
It was the same with Bett.

(21:31):
Bett's first, you know, hishomes where you were living.
Gosh, what to explain?
The dance thing was also like,oh, no male-female role-playing.
Whatever the mean.
What does that mean?
What the hell?
Oh, we've all got a body, wecan dance, we can all dance.
It's not about, oh, but whenyou get into being a little bit

(21:53):
feminine as a dancer or notbeing able to do the butch
things that dancers could, youknow, so sometimes there's a a
hellish thing there.
Well, I think dance gave me theability to sort of say, no, I'm
okay, I can stand up.
The dance teacher once said,it's okay to have an ego.
And so that's reallypsychological.
So, no, it was the beginning ofbeing able to stand up because

(22:16):
sometimes that gay oppressionreally makes you withdraw your
all your self stuff that you doto yourself.
No, finding that there wasanswers.
The other one was doingco-counseling and discovering
co-counseling.
That really helped.
Um, realizing that we screamand shout and cry and we need to
uh have places that are safe totalk.

(22:38):
It's like counseling.
So there were many things, youknow, you understood about being
gay, that was a major thing inyour life.
But another thing was workingclass, another one was
understanding how women are.
You go, oh, how do I treat?
So that was the therapeuticside.
Never mind then going on tocontinue with uh getting
involved with the blue lipsbecause that was a after the

(23:00):
dance school, there was about ayear of experimental dance.
But coming from all myexperience of working in kind of
political theatre too, anddiscovering all this
performance, getting along withBetty and realizing, well, we
didn't do the gay lib as far asbeing a drag queen goes on
stage, and where it isn't allabout sexism and misogyny and

(23:21):
you know, with play with theideas of the commune and
theatrically improvise.

Jonathan (23:35):
So you mentioned the commune.
Um, we talk about stin blowingthe lid.
So could you tell us a littlebit about commune life, what
that was like, what was behindit?

Stuart Feather (23:46):
What was behind it?
Well, what was behind it wasthe politics of gay liberation,
which was socialism.
Bette was one of the firstpeople that I remember uh
distinctly coming to to Gay Lib.
And it was uh the LSE wasclosed for Christmas, which is

(24:07):
where we used to meet in one ofthe classrooms there, and uh we
it was moved to the arts lab.
And Bet uh came along to that,and I remember during the
meeting this queen uh uh sort ofspoke up.
Uh you were at his funeral, soyou heard me telling the story

(24:30):
of how uh this this bar queenwas saying was saying, What do
you mean gay lib is different?
Uh it's just like any other gaybar, you know.
Uh we're all cruising, aren'twe?
And and and Bette jumped up ina fury and said, You s you know,

(24:51):
um You stupid fucking queen.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
That's what you said at the funeral, which of one
book.
You stupid fucking queen.

Stuart Feather (25:01):
That's what I was trying to get.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Brought the whole thing to a complete stop.
Did I just hear that in afuneral?

Stuart Feather (25:08):
Um And he said, I've been in every bar in
London, and I've never no one'sever talked like this before.
Um you stupid fucking queen.
Can't you see this horse hasgot a chance?
It was uh an absolutelymarvellous and really uh gutsy r

(25:33):
reply to this guy.
So that um uh really impressedme, so uh obviously, because I
remember always remembered it.
It was one of the first things.
And then gradually, as as weekswent on, one met more people,
and eventually I made friends uhwith uh Mick Belston, who uh

(25:56):
was uh a few years about fiveyears older than me.
Um, and he came from a familyof Bristol dockers who were all
socialists, and he had twobrothers who were gay and two
sisters that were gay out of afamily of eight, I think.
Um so remarkable.

(26:16):
Something in the waterdefinitely, something in the air
of Bristol.
So he had a lovely flat withhis boyfriend in Barnes, and
people used to go along there,uh, and Bette came along there
as well, and uh many otherpeople that I became friendly

(26:37):
with, Nicholas Bramble, and uhgenerally on a Saturday, and
Andrew Lumsden, of course, andwe'd drop acid and trip together
um and on a sort of regularbasis, and uh uh mixed uh, you
know, would uh from his point ofview, from that socialist point

(27:03):
of view, was talking about, youknow, we were discussing uh the
Maoists, Aubrey and David, andwhat they were saying, and uh
and then other people as well.
So we were sort of before we,you know, obviously wasn't doing
that on acid, but I mean,before we dropped the acid, we

(27:23):
were uh Mick was sort of umbecause the media workshop of
GLF was uh uh used to meet inhis flat, he so the men and the
women, so he could, you know, hecould analyse the situation and
what people were into and soforth.
Uh things like uh the Maoistssaying uh there won't be any uh

(27:44):
liberation for 200 years, andand uh we were saying, and we
were thinking, well, uh why dowe have to wait 200 years?
We're here now, we're trying todo it now, so let's do it.

Paul Shaw (27:57):
So, Stuart, one thing, why was it that the early
commune was very much aboutradical drag?
And why was that very differentfrom some of the other stuff
that was happening on in the gaymovement at that time?
Because it was, it was verybuilt around radical drag, the
commune, wasn't it?
Which was actually a space youoccupied in Notting Hill, wasn't
it?

Stuart Feather (28:15):
Yes.
A major difference between themen and the women in GLF was
that the men were incrediblysexist and and and misogynistic.
And um uh this group of us wereall trying to become aware of
where we were going wrong withthe women, where we were being

(28:37):
sexist or uh misogynistictowards them, and kind of going
through our heads and trying tosort things out, it got sort of
mixed up with the drag thing aswell.
Um, because it was all all verywell wearing a badge and saying

(28:59):
Gay Liberation Front.
But that's kind of the responsewas kind of on an impersonal
level.
I what is the Gay Liberation?
What does it stand for?
It was nothing about, you know,the conversation never reached
the point where someone said,Well, um, why do you feel
oppressed?
or and and so on.

Paul Shaw (29:20):
What first prompted you to kind of, if you like, get
into a frock?
What was going on around you atthat time?

Stuart Feather (29:26):
Um, well, uh uh the thing was um that in a way,
drag was a a way of coming outeven more to show um the it was
our response to the badge,really, because uh there was no
question about the response uhfrom being in drag, because it

(29:50):
was immediately challenging, uhimmediately obvious, because uh
the kind of drag we developedwas uh you know to it was to
express our homosexuality.
We weren't pretending to bewomen, uh we weren't uh acting
at being women, we what weweren't making this parody.

(30:11):
We felt, if you like, uh wewere being more than acting.
And is that but it was to sortof demonstrate um the uh the the
that we could be feminine andwe could be challenging at the

(30:32):
same time.

James (30:33):
And if that was radical drag, is that what you mean by
the phrase radical drag?

Stuart Feather (30:37):
That is radical drag as as best as I can define
it, yes.

Paul Shaw (30:41):
The most obvious thing about it visually is that
it's obviously a man in a frock.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, there was noattempt to actually conceal the
fact that you were a bloke, butyou were wearing feminine
things, and you were doing it onthe tube going to work, weren't
you?
Um and and uh Bet was running astall on the market and then
you know, and doing all of thispeople were astonished.

Stuart Feather (31:02):
Umpletely, all the straight men, uh the
reaction against it, um, and theMaoists and the left as well.
You're letting the side down.
Um it was challenging, and theydidn't they couldn't handle it.

(31:22):
And so there was, you know, asthe movement progressed and all
these differentextra-parliamentary left, you
know, sort of the uh theMarxists, um, the
Marxist-Leninists, you I meanall that array of um uh
different ideologies, they allstarted trying to make their

(31:45):
mark on GLF uh and try and forceit into these positions and so
forth and take over.
And there was one after theother, they all tried and they
all failed, and we were makingthe running, and they couldn't
bear that.
Right.

Jonathan (32:03):
Right.
And Lavinia, you you said thatyou're letting the side down.
Was that what what drewactually what let's go back?
What drew you to drag?

Lavinia Co-op (32:10):
So, um, yes, wandering around Nottinghill
Gate and seeing people comingout of the commune or getting on
the buses and being out, andfinding that so scary and
exhilarating at the same timethat you were having a laugh,
that you were moving around,that you were being out just in
normal situation.
That was, and then of course,we were wearing beads and trying

(32:32):
on makeup, and we had oh, Bibawas around and oh, it was
fantastic.
Oh wow, getting into drag, moremore.
I think we're getting into theblue lips.
Uh, I found that was a safespace to be on stage.
Um, but also working the streetwas uh the area, um being more

(32:54):
a street queen too, realizingwhen we went to San Francisco in
the 80s, in I couldn't believeseeing street queens that were
wearing slippers and putting apiece of newspaper on the
sidewalk so we could sit downand have a chat.
It was a whole there was manyother areas going to Amsterdam
and seeing shows and differentperformance groups saying, Oh,

(33:15):
there's more ay ay, wearingdrag, God, years of it now.

James (33:20):
So you felt so you found wearing drag on stage to be a
safe space.
There's many people that wouldthink that would be a kind of
terribly terrifying, I suppose,thing to do.
Can you remember the first timeyou ever went on stage in drag?

Lavinia Co-op (33:33):
Yeah, like we did the ugly duckling, which was a
kind of a collective shared wayof putting something together,
and we put it on at thetabernacle and found the boards
to stand on and the backdrop andthe piano, and we got there.
Yes, that was the beginning ofreally coming out and realizing
yes, we can create somethingcoming from the hot peaches.
We realized, oh, this is thisis possible.

(33:55):
Betty gave us that.
Betty said, I'm the boss, I'min charge.
We've got collective and sharedideas.
We can't do it without people.
We had nine people, it got downto six and seven, and then
toured.
So be being safe, there's youcan sometimes if you're on the
street, it's not always thateasy to um demonstrate or to

(34:19):
expostulate ideas.
Sometimes in a nightclub, yougo, oh, you can be a little bit
out, it's kind of safe.
Oh, this is cabaret, it's alittle bit more safer, but
they're still talking, andyou've really got to pull their
attention.
But on stage, you've got them.
If they want to come and see astoryline, and that you're just
naturally yourselves, not tryingto be women, uh, not

(34:42):
necessarily being clowns.
We are intelligent, we do haveideas, but it's light and
frothy, it's entertaining, it'sa fabulous world being gay, you
know, and we're letting you inon our secrets, we're letting
you in on our stories, ourlittle silly songs about
cruising or and the Blue Lipshad a fantastic European tour

(35:03):
and then went to New York.

Jonathan (35:05):
And I know that there are some wonderful stories
around that, and I wonder if youwould share some of those with
us.
Because I think a lot of peoplewon't have any experience with
a touring radical drag group.

Paul Shaw (35:16):
They not so much of them anymore.
One of the things that Bertalways used to insist when we
were on tour was that we gotpaid cash, which is almost
unbelievable now.
And we existed in some way abit like gypsies because we were
totally unfunded for for mostof that 20 years, and which was
just extraordinary, actually.
And the first reason we startedtouring in Germany and all

(35:37):
around.
Well, the first move that wemade, we got in touch with the
Festival of Fools in Amsterdam,and from there we got sort of
pushed around to all of thesedifferent venues.
There were all of thesealternative groups who were
doing all kinds of crazy stuff.
There was cunning stunts andall of these different groups
that were doing these amazingthings, I think, at that time.
And uh, you know, so it was awonderful, and you bump into

(36:00):
them on the road and all ofthat.
We went around in various sortof beaten-up buses and stuff
like that.
And these were British groups,or these were uh they would be
maybe Dutch groups, maybe Germangroups, but uh you know, but
the ones we knew were British,yeah, yeah.

James (36:12):
And and but did you all travel abroad because there was
a bigger scene there that youcould be more open because there
was money there?
Well, money.

Stuart Feather (36:19):
The money there was no money here.

Paul Shaw (36:22):
There was money.
And Bett had a contact inAmsterdam, one of his previous
boyfriends, who had a boat inAmsterdam.
So that was the first thing.
So somehow managed to getpeople over to Amsterdam, all
staying on boats and stuff, andgot a booking at the Milky Way,
blah, blah, blah.
And then from there, we justgot started all of these
journeys over Europe.
You know, and that's when itmade some money.

(36:43):
But anyway, one of these tours,we've been doing this show Lust
in Space, which was one of ourgreat shows, I have to say.
But anyway, we did this tour,and um we ended up in this hotel
room in Hamburg, and um andBetty had this kind of sort of
mm um this handbag, which waslike a clutch bag, which looked

(37:03):
like a magazine, you know, andone of those sort of
old-fashioned uh sort of clutchbags, and and uh that's where he
used to keep all of the money.
So, you know, we would get asort of per diem as we were
going around.
He would share out money, andthen there would be a share out
at the end.
Of what of what was there.
But anyway, we decided in thisHamburg hotel that we were going

(37:24):
to share out the money.
And this was a bag that Bettyhad lost almost several times on
the tour.
Anyway, we counted out thismoney in about sort of five
different denominations, youknow, Kronas and Deutsche, you
know, because it was before theEuropean Union.
And there was a fantasticamount of money that we couldn't
believe it.

(37:44):
And um, you know, and thenBette said, well, we can I can
either share this out or we cango to New York.
And we again, like with himhaving some friends in in
Amsterdam with boats, we had afew friends in New York, so
there were a few contacts, andother people in the group knew
people and stuff like that.
Anyway, we got to New York andum we were uh, you know, we sent

(38:06):
all of our stuff on.
We arrived as tourists.
Uh, we sent all of our stuff onin trunks, and uh we got there
and we all got little jobsbecause we had no bookings and
stuff.
And Bette was going around toall of these um uh, you know,
different theatres and saying,Will you take us on and give us
a gig and all of that stuff?
And had a few contacts becausehe'd worked for the Hot Peaches

(38:27):
from New York for a short while.
And um I must sort of bring inanother story to this because I
just love it so much.
But anyway, he'd approachedCharles Ludlum at the Theatre
for the Ridiculous and um tomake make a meeting.
And um and he thought he'd madea real contact, and and Charles
Ludnum had agreed to see him.

(38:47):
And um so he'd uh he calledCharles Ludlum and uh and then
at the end of the conversationhe said, so how will I recognise
you?
So they made this appointmentto meet in this cafe near the
theatre, the ridiculous.
And um and Charles Ludnam said,Well, uh, I've got a mop of
redhead, red hair, and I'm hunglike a horse.
And Bet thought, well, that's alittle bit of a weird thing to

(39:10):
say, but hey, we're in New York,you know what I mean?
And it's it's kind of okay.
So anyway, so Bet went along tothis meeting, and of course, we
still hadn't had a singlebooking in New York.
And um no Charles, no nobodywith a mop of red hair, let
alone hung like a horse came in.
So, you know, Bet he finallyrealized he, you know, he'd just
been made a fool of.
Anyway, barely, I'd say it'sbarely a couple of months, maybe

(39:35):
three months later, uh, therewas a party being held in New
York for us at a big loft space.
And we were the toast of thetown, they say.
But anyway, we'd had thisfantastic success in New York
from getting a you know a onebooking.
We'd got a centre spread in theVillage Voice, we got a booking
on Second Avenue, the OrpheumTheatre, blah, blah, blah.
It was amazing.

(39:55):
We had to go back to London toget proper visas, you know,
everything just took offincredibly.

James (40:00):
So radical drag was something the Americans could
could really get on board with.

Paul Shaw (40:04):
Well, they had their own versions of that, but they
didn't have quite the polish, Iwould say.
I mean, and also I think therewas something about the British
humour that in some way we weresending ourselves up, which is a
very kind of English thing todo.
And I think that very much thekind of the kind of humour that
was going on very much in NewYork was queens who were sort of

(40:24):
faster and sharper.
I mean, very much like to myJoan Rivers or so.
She's faster and quicker thanyou are.
Can you catch up?
We were more far more stupidthan the audience.
And I think New Yorkers foundthat an incredible relief.
You know, they suddenly didn'thave to try and be on top of it.
They were a sort of ahead ofus, and we were trying to catch
up with them.

(40:44):
And I think it just turned itcompletely around because it was
very English kind of humour.
But anyway, um, you know, therewas so three months after he
disappointment with CharlesLightham, we were starting there
was this party being held in abig loft space by this guy Randy
Gilberty, who's a big social atNew York, and had this one of
those wonderful loft spaceswhere the you know the elevator

(41:05):
comes right up into the room,you know, and all that.
Anyway, the elevator came upinto the room.
Bette was by the doorway withRandy Gilberty, and the the the
the uh elevator doors opened,and there was this little short
fat man came out with a baldhead, and Bette said to Randy,
who's that?
And um and he said, Uh, that'sCharles Ludlum.

(41:27):
And Bet just went absolutelyballistic and gave it to him.
And he was so, you know, he wasjust absolutely mortified and
incredibly but you know, youjust felt it's one of those
moments, you know, don't benasty to them on the way up,
because you might meet them onthe way down.
But it was just anextraordinary, I mean, he had no
idea that, you know, threemonths after he tried to make a

(41:49):
fool of Bett, really, you know,he was nobody as far as he was
concerned.
Suddenly Bette was all over thefucking newspapers, you know,
the blue lips, and you know.
But we did have a marvelloustime there.
It was, it was, it was reallyexciting.
It was great to suddenly dothat, you know, and out of
nothing, you know, and to findthat you I mean, you know, those
things in New York, I mean,they last for a season, if you

(42:10):
like.
I think with us it lastedprobably two or three seasons,
didn't it?

Lavinia Co-op (42:14):
No, we we we when every time we went back through
the 80s, it was a we gave alift to the downtown scene in
New York.
It was a very theatrical, youknow, so many different kinds of
arts and artists.
But it was a lift because itwas the beginning of AIDS, and
that's probably where we gotsome of it.

(42:35):
It was uh the 80s, 81 we wentback.
Yes, the the the frivoloussilliness, and but also the
sometimes the punch underneath.
Um, and it was a group work, itwasn't, you know, Betty was the
star often, but this is sendingup the star as well.
It was brilliant, brilliant bitof writing, lots of tap dancing

(42:57):
and musical.
It was phenomenal in a way.

Paul Shaw (42:59):
And there were some great players in the blue lips,
and Danny was fantastic, youwere fantastic, we were all
wonderful.

James (43:06):
Why was it called the Blue Lips?
Where did the name come from?

Stuart Feather (43:09):
Um uh when we were in New York, a friend of
mine said that there was a linein MASH that uh one of the
characters had been uh giving anEskimo a blow job.

Lavinia Co-op (43:28):
The only other one I know.

Stuart Feather (43:30):
So I don't know whether that's true or not
because I haven't watched MASHall the way through.

Lavinia Co-op (43:36):
The train of thought, hot peaches, hot lips,
blue lips, but spell itB-L-O-L-B-L-O-L-I-P-S, Blue
lips, blue lips, blah blah blah,B-L-O-O-L-I-P-S.
Can I just add to what Paul wassaying?

Stuart Feather (43:52):
One reason why we got to Amsterdam, the COC had
heard of us and asked us,invited us to go to Amsterdam
and play uh the ugly dockling inFondel Park for the Amsterdam
Gay Pride, the first Amsterdamgay pride.

(44:13):
We'd actually thought that uhwe would uh do the show um first
of all uh for uh the London GayPride.
But the people controlling thatuh uh turned us down.
Uh I mean the they were all,you know, ex-GLFers.

James (44:38):
Um these part of the people you made enemies of.

Stuart Feather (44:41):
The the left uh in inverted commerce.
Um, yes, and so uh this waspart of their revenge on us.
So we were free to go toAmsterdam.
And Bette had already been inthe February of that year with
Danny to Amsterdam to the milkmeltveg and tried to get a gig

(45:05):
with them.
And uh, of course, they saidno, sight unseen.
Uh so as soon as um the FondrelPark uh gig came up, uh Bett
immediately, I don't know,probably phoned them, I would
think, and said, Well, you know,uh we're gonna play in in
Fondrel Park uh for AmsterdamGay Pride.

(45:27):
And so they sent asserted.
Uh yeah, and so uh they sent uhsome someone along from the
management, and that's how wegot the gig with um with uh the
milkfeg.
Yeah.

Jonathan (45:41):
And and thinking about those early prides, um were
were you were the two of you atthat first pride?
Oh yes.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat and what that was like?

Stuart Feather (45:52):
And it was great.
Um, it was it was fun.
We met in Hyde Park and had asort of party, and then we came
together and lined up and andstarted off.
Uh there were so many policesurrounding us that it was
difficult to see the people onthe pavement, equally difficult

(46:16):
for them to see us, but it diduh create um quite a for all.

Paul Shaw (46:25):
Um so brave to do at that time as well, so uh 72 was
first gay pride, yes.

Stuart Feather (46:34):
Um but what have we done before that?

Jonathan (46:37):
27th of November 1970 was the gay-in at Highbury
Fields.

Stuart Feather (46:42):
That was Highbury Fields, yes.

Jonathan (46:44):
Let's talk about the Kiss In, the Gay Inn at Highbury
Fields, 27th of November 1970,which is reported as really the
first gay protest, collectiveprotest in the UK.

Stuart Feather (46:57):
That's right.
Yes.
Openly advertised by uh bylesbian and gay, out-lesbian and
gay people.
It was actually, we and wehaven't mentioned him yet,
Anthony Gray, um whosingle-handedly um slogged away

(47:22):
as secretary of the HomosexualLaw Reform Society, which uh was
founded in 1958, and uh hebecame head of the Albany Trust.
He was the man that went ontelevision uh when he finally
got um the BBC um to um uh allowhim to give a talk on on

(47:49):
homosexuality and the need forreform and and change of law.
And they they did it uh withhim in a studio that was so dark
that you could hardly see himat all, because it would be out
it absolutely outrageous to uhput a uh an openly homosexual on

(48:12):
on British television.
And the second time, uh I uhI'm not quite sure which way
around it was, but uh one timethey filmed him from the back.

James (48:24):
Oh wow was that because he didn't want to reveal his
identity?

Stuart Feather (48:30):
No, no.

James (48:31):
I didn't think so.

Stuart Feather (48:31):
It was because the BBC didn't want to read it.
The BBC didn't want uh theythey thought uh they couldn't
possibly show a homosexual.

James (48:40):
But they would have to interview him and presumably
talk about about his camp aboutthe campaign, the the reforms,
the law reforms.
Yes.
But they weren't they there wasa they they felt it was a step
too far too far to actually showhis face.

Paul Shaw (48:56):
Well wasn't the whole attitude, it was it, Lord Aaron
was very involved with it,wasn't it?
Well and then then somebodysaid this thing about um you
know, we mustn't be toooutrageous or too kind of what
was that?

Stuart Feather (49:10):
That was Um That was well eventually Anthony
Grey found Leo Absey, um thecolourful Welsh MP, uh who um in
turn found Lord Aaron, who wasthis, you know, sort of Scottish
lord eccentric from aneccentric family, and part of

(49:33):
his speech in the House of Lordsuh when the bill uh was being
uh turned into a um you know anact was saying that uh uh well
he said the raw the he quotedOscar Wilde as uh saying uh the

(49:56):
the road ahead will be long andbloody.
And uh he had he he sort ofacknowledged the fact that it
had been and so on.
Uh but then he had this cautionthat he hoped that um you know

(50:17):
there would be no demonstrationor outrageous behaviour which
could possibly make uh the Lordsand Commons regret that they
had done what they were about todo, which was to make it turn
make it lawful, or to publishthe Sexual Offensive Act, and to

(50:41):
decre uh you know take away theum the gross indecency law.
Uh yes, so we all had to behaveourselves.
So uh along comes gayliberation three years later
making a public demonstration ofthemselves.

Jonathan (51:00):
And that gay in in Highbury Fields, um what was
what was the response to it?

Stuart Feather (51:06):
A connection was that Anthony Gray and his
lover, uh Eric Thompson, uh,were in the meeting, and Eric
Thompson, well, uh the idea, theproposal from the left uh was
that we should go to theAmerican embassy and demonstrate
against their um uh ban onhomosexuals visiting America,

(51:31):
going to America, um, that wasin the visa application form.
And I thought, oh, that's youknow, that's the business of
American gays to sort of sortout.
And it seemed to me it was likesomething to do with the the
defeat of the left at GrosvenorSquare in the anti-Vietnam War

(51:54):
demonstrations.
Um, and Derek Thompson's ideawas that we should go uh to
Highbury Fields and demonstratethere against the police arrest
of Louis Ekes, who was the chairof the Young Liberals who've
been caught cottaging.
And that's obviously uh the onewe went for.

(52:16):
And so that occurred.
And I was reviewing that justrecently in a little essay I did
for Andrew Lumsden uh for theexhibition of his paintings that
took place um at Vogue Fabricin Stoke Newington about uh in

(52:41):
February of this year.
And I was I'd I'd been thinkingto uh uh include as a way of
explaining uh La Bouchère andhis gross indecency uh amendment
and the 1885 Offences Againstthe Persons Act.

(53:04):
Uh and I was uh so I startedoff with Henry VIII and and the
Buggery Act of 1533 and workedforward.
And for some reason I went tolook at uh John Smith and James
Pratt, who were the last two menin England uh to be um hung for

(53:28):
the crime of sodomy in 1835.
And I discovered that that wasexactly to the date, 135 years
earlier than the Highbury Fieldsdemonstration.
Wow.
No, I haven't published thatyet, so I trust you with that

(53:50):
information.

Paul Shaw (53:51):
Um we won't be airing this for a little while, so I
think you're good.
And what was the thing thatthey did at the action about all
that stuff they were doing inthe bushes?
Oh, what was that, which wasquite fun, wasn't it?

Stuart Feather (54:02):
Well it was, yes.
I mean it started off withthere was a cottage, and so we
uh we um we're all doing lots ofchanting, you know, sort of uh
give us a G, G, give us an A, A,give us a Y, Y.
What does that spell?
Gay, and what is gay, good, andwhat is also gay, angry, and

(54:22):
though he was sort of repeatingthat, and one or two others that
people threw in and so forth.
And then um we moved off uh tothe center of the fields um and
lit candles, and then the GLFdemands were read out, and then
after that uh we went we we sortof dispersed into the bushes

(54:48):
and lit cigarettes and used thetip of the cigarette to sort of
invite the cruisers uh or tosignify your interest in in a
liaison with one of the otherpeople, so uh which is what the
police said Louis had done uh uhand the reason why he was

(55:10):
arrested.
Uh well they'd seen him comeout of the cottage and go into
the fields and light up acigarette and join the rest of
the cruisers.
Yeah.
Uh so that we did that, yes.
And uh then after that we wentfor a drink at the nearest pub
on Highbury Corner, whichhappened to be called the Cock

(55:31):
Inn.

James (55:33):
What was the aftermath of this?
What was the the publicresponse?

Stuart Feather (55:38):
It the only newspaper uh that turned up um
was the Times, and AndrewLumsden was the business editor
of the Times, and he went towork the following morning and
discovered the Gay LiberationFront and was there the

(55:58):
following week and became thefirst out journalist in the
world um and a leading figure inum in gay liberation.
He died uh two years ago, lastOctober.
And uh we are the beneficiariesof his.

Lavinia Co-op (56:18):
Yes.
You published the GayLiberation Front Manifesto.
Did you republish The GayLiberation Front Manifesto?
Um yes.
There's still copies?
Uh there are still is itonline?
No.

Jonathan (56:31):
No, well you you can get them at the Bishopsgate
Institute.
Um and there is a copy in umQueer Britain, the museum in
London.

Stuart Feather (56:40):
Uh-huh.
Yes, the um that's right.
You can buy it at um Gaze theWorld Bookshop anywhere.

Jonathan (56:48):
You should buy it at Gaze the Word Bookshop
everywhere because everyoneshould go to Gaze the Word
Bookshop.
It's brilliant.
There is another protest thatthe GLF was quite famous for,
and that was the protest of theFestival of Light.

Stuart Feather (57:05):
Oh yes.

Jonathan (57:06):
Um, and I know Bet was at that, I believe.
Were the two of you at theFestival of Black Protest?
Yes.
So could you I mean, I I don'tthink anyone who's listening may
recognize that.
So it would be lovely to hearabout what that was and what
ever what what we did.

Stuart Feather (57:26):
Right.
Well, well, there was twomissionaries, uh husband and
wife, uh, Peter and Janet Hill,who'd been missionaries in
India, um, and they came back toLondon or to England um in, I

(57:48):
suppose, about 1970, and wereabsolutely opposed the filth and
depravity that Britain had sunkinto since they left.
They were determined to dosomething about it, and they
were kind of stars of the uhevangelical um uh fundamentalist

(58:12):
movement.
And uh Mary Whitehouse, who waswith her television and viewers
and listeners association, andLord Longford, who was a Labour
uh cabinet member, and uh aright wing Roman Catholic, uh,

(58:35):
who used to pray for MyraHindley, the Moore's murderer in
her cell, um uh and uh MalcolmMuggerich was a right wing uh
newspaper uh columnist and uhCliff Richard.

(58:56):
And they had a committee, uhand they called themselves uh uh
and uh the evangelicals andPeter Hill and his wife, they
decided to um have a festival oflight.
And then White House picked upon that, and with their money

(59:18):
and connections, they kind oftook over the organ well, not
the organizing, uh theChristians were quite capable of
that.
Um, but they uh took over anduh and could promote it sort of
nationally.
Uh and so that's what they did,and they decided that the

(59:41):
target would be uh homosexualsand uh and also they they wanted
to re recriminalizehomosexuality and abortion four
years after they'd beendecriminalized.
Um, John Chesterman.
uh was th the guy who uh s sawimmediately um the importance of

(01:00:08):
this and the danger it couldpose.
So he organized with StreetTheatre, of which I was part,
and uh a a counter sort ofdemonstration.
And he persuaded uh JanetPhillips, one of his friends,
who was about, I don't know,twenty-two or twenty-three,

(01:00:31):
quite a young girl, well a youngwoman anyway, um, to uh uh uh
approach the Festival of Lightas a devout Christian and get a
job in their offices and shesucceeded to such an extent uh
that she had access to ticketsfor the inaugural meeting in

(01:00:55):
Methodist Central Hall,Westminster.
And then the Festival of Lightitself would be in Hyde Park uh
with a rally in Trafalgar Squareand a march to Hyde Park for
the Festival of Light.
And uh they brought um uh CliffRichards on board um uh the

(01:01:17):
Festival of Light for youthappeal and uh oh well there were
Danish pornographers and allsorts of weirdos uh who were uh
attending the inaugural meetingso and for the the arrangement
for the buses what Janet didthere under John's direction was

(01:01:42):
to send out last minute achange of location of uh the the
parking spaces for the busescoming from all over the country
down to London bringing thefaithful to the rally um and she
changed the timings and thelocation so the locations were

(01:02:03):
now all in outer boroughs ofLondon and some of the timings
were actually 6 pm which was thetime that the Festival of Light
in Hyde Park uh finished uh sothere was a massive disruption
there so we were able to getinto the inaugural meeting and

(01:02:25):
uh we were dotted all round uhthere was I don't know how many
little activist groups about Iwould say 15 I think all
together each with a differentrole each with a different role
and Chesterman told each groupuh what people in front of them

(01:02:50):
would be doing and then it wasup to them to choose their
moment to do their thing so onlyeach group knew the the one
earlier than them and they alsowant secrecy.
So but we all knew the firstone which was slow hand
clapping.

(01:03:11):
So after Peter Hill had donehis opening speech and so forth
um and wild applause and as itdies away you hear these slow
hand clappings so people aregoing sort of you know it just
uh put an edge under things umwere each group thrown out as

(01:03:33):
they did their as they did theirthing yes they were stewards
they all looked like cricketersto me and they all had that
little Methodist uh bag a sortof green enamel sort of thing
with uh the the sort of the lampthe uh you know the burning
lamp oh yes yeah so yeah theywere the tough guys what

(01:03:59):
actually happened what what umthings happened in the during
occasion mice so the the firstum real thing was the release of
mice uh uh and uh and thatthere were screams of horror and
people trying to get out of thepews and others standing on the

(01:04:20):
pews uh and all snorting withdisgust and horror these mice
running around all over theplace so that really uh you know
sort of stopped it presumablyyou could release the mice
without being caught who did itwell um well you could because
they were all in boxes so andthey were it was on the ground

(01:04:42):
floor there was a balcony aswell uh there's a balcony in the
building and we I I was upthere with lots of other people
too so it's it's quite easy torelease the mice onto the floor
and then even uh there we aresomeone looked down and freaked
out like everybody else um andthen uh there was a group of

(01:05:05):
nuns who were next and they sortof filed out of their pews and
went walked very solemnly to thefront of the church turned
round lifted up their skirts andcan can down the aisle
screaming their heads off uhshrieking like mad banshees um

(01:05:26):
and uh some of them didn't getcaught until they got right to
the other end of the chapel yesand it it went on like that um
the the the banner over the ohyes the the youth group threw a
banner over the um the front ofthe balcony say and dawed in big

(01:05:47):
red letters was Cliff forQueen.
And of course with all theseinterruptions it was marvellous
for the uh for the mice theorganist had gone off to do
something maybe gone to the looor something and um and the
choirmistress uh kind of it tookher uh several minutes to kind

(01:06:09):
of pull herself together to rushout and find the organist to
come back and start you knowsort of rally uh uh the crowd
with uh an the next hymn kind ofthing and so this was happening
every time so uh every timethere was a disruption well the
organist came back of course uhthat so he didn't move again he

(01:06:31):
was waiting for a next one uh uhyes the queen that had been
saved oh yes there was somebodythere's somebody that said I've
been saved this is oh oh yes uhthere was Michael James um and
he he was a solo act in drag uhdressed in a sort of coffee lace

(01:06:54):
dress that he was very proud ofand uh uh a wig I always
imagined he had a greatcartwheel hat on but he swears
he didn't um but anyway MalcolmMuggeridge came on and started
you know sort of denouncinghomosexuals evil this and all
that you know sort of nonsenseand uh uh Michael screamed out

(01:07:19):
I've been saved as I've seen theface of the Lord glory glory
hallelujah I've been saved andthe whole place fell silent
because they thought it hadreally happened for a minute you
know and then they began to ohno and then the stewards uh he

(01:07:46):
was right up on the back row ofthe balcony and the steward's
approach from both sides but hewas quick he grabbed Peter
Flannery who had his carry backwhat he'd done was uh put on his
drag as everybody was standingup uh uh singing uh during uh he
and Peter Flannery they managedto escape uh the stewards and

(01:08:07):
got right down to the front ofthe balcony and Michael was
repeating himself all the wayuntil he was grabbed you know
and and hauled out so yes thatwas extraordinary what was your
role what what I was I was oneof um four or five members of
the Ku Klux Klan uh so um whenit was our turn we we put on the

(01:08:32):
pointed hat and uh uh andagreed with everything that uh
Malcolm Muggerage was sayingabout homosexuals and we were
saying yes burn them likefaggots yes hang them hanging's
too good for them crucify themand did you get swiftly uh oh

(01:09:00):
very swiftly and thumped once ortwice as we were sent down the
stairs.
Was they been arrested um therewas no arrests okay no that was
a remarkable thing that wasthere was nearly an arrest
outside um because some I don'tknow who they got a bit we'd all

(01:09:22):
um arranged to meet in a pubround the corner in Westminster
but they'd encountered oh somesome police uh a couple of
policemen I can't I can'tremember the reason for the
policeman um stopping them ormaybe he didn't maybe they were
just got a bit sort of uhbecause they what they were

(01:09:42):
saying to the policeman waswe've just been inside uh there
and they and we've been told tolove the police.

Jonathan (01:09:50):
If Jesus loves us why don't you um and one of them was
too bold and and kissed thispoliceman and he was so
surprised his head jerkedbackwards and his helmet flew
off and and you know he suddenlyhe lost all his authority but
of course his mate sort of youknow was there as well so the

(01:10:13):
the helmet was retrieved uh butthey they sort of they went off
muttering yeah Jesus must loveyou the fucking well I I was at
uh Methodist Central Hall aboutthree weeks ago at the Off West
End Awards and I thought aboutthis moment because I I had

(01:10:36):
known about it because the OffWest End Awards was hosted by a
drag queen and I thought lookhow far we have come there's a
great story about how you choseyour name um which I'd love for
you to share if you don't mindoh yeah we were in the hippie
times and and uh Fergus uhdecided to give up and go back

(01:11:00):
to the land in Ireland andmanaged to get unemployment and
get a little cottage in themiddle of nowhere and we went
over me in alarm to to visit andwe had three weeks there and uh
at some point because there wasno lights it was candles and
cooked by the fire it was veryyou know a few vegetables in the

(01:11:22):
garden it was um anyway goingback to the land the whole idea
no so we were mucking around oneday and um Fergus became Femula
and Alan Alan Alan became LadyAlicia Bracknell she was you
know late Alan and I was Laviniaand I said Lavinia's you know

(01:11:43):
it's too posh so I put cow offon the end because that was a
current at the time as well soyes that's how Lavinia came
along.

Lavinia Co-op (01:11:52):
And you're still uh performing yeah I'm still
performing a little bit here andthere yes um archiving going
through stuff trying to umrelegate this to the world and
uh I need help I needpsychiatric help there we all I
need money it's it's a longprocess but we're getting there.

(01:12:14):
Bishop's gate has been reallygood.

Jonathan (01:12:16):
Yeah so brilliant Bishopsgate.

James (01:12:19):
So I guess what what is your message to people that
didn't live through thatstruggle that didn't have to
experience the the you know theseverity of homophobia that you
saw the struggles that you wentthrough and that almost maybe
forget that that we're still ina bit of a fight and a struggle
what is your message to the nextgeneration of about this fight?

Lavinia Co-op (01:12:42):
I think you know coming out of the 70s 60s 70s it
was quite a liberal well we'llsay a quite liberal but then you
get into the 80s with MaggieThatcher and a complete reversal
of the way we were going.
So we really had a right wingbacklash and so developing and
keeping going Section 28occurred.

Jonathan (01:13:03):
So this 80s was quite traumatic in a way and yet as
blue lips the performing onstage was a way of continuing on
with another kind of umexploration of liberation so so
that for me was a big thing wasto be able to perform and uh you
know show a kind of way um yeswell we are really humbled by

(01:13:30):
the fact that you've come andspoken to us today and I think
that the message that the threeof you the messages that the
three of you have shared with usare ones that are just these
beacons of light and shouldremain beacons of light in a
time that is getting a bitdarker.
So thank you so much.
Thank you thank you too Thankyou for listening to the view

(01:14:01):
from here of course there's alot of politics in any movement
but the political views you'veheard across the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.

James (01:14:10):
If you enjoyed this episode please consider
subscribing and leaving a reviewas well as sharing the word on
social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history