January 27, 2026 • 49 mins
We sit with Nettie Pollard as she relives the early 1970s Gay Liberation Front, a movement that built a culture of collective courage, mutual care, and playful defiance. From secret ‘zaps’ at the Festival of Light to linking arms outside the Albert Hall, she reveals how the GLF protected one another, challenged the police, and made joy a tactic.
Nettie takes us inside the Counter‑Psychiatry Group working to overcome the label of homosexuality as an “illness” and shares her experiences volunteering for Icebreakers, one of the first LGBTQ+ helplines.
Nettie’s warning is clear: rights can be rolled back when hearts aren’t won. This conversation shows how culture, community, and care can move faster than laws and last longer than headlines.
Since recording this episode, Nettie Pollard sadly died on Christmas Day, 2025
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This episode was hosted by Jonathan Chambers and James Alexander
Editing by Hannah Stewart
Music: Mystify created by AlterEgo
Visit our website, https://tvfh.co.uk
Follow us on Instagram, https://www.instagram.com/theviewfromherepodcast
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund hit on the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Equality, and for some peoplein Stonewall like me, equality
(00:24):
was kind of like what you got toas a starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to The View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
James (00:42):
Today we're joined by Nettie Pollard, an early
activist in the Gay LiberationFront and part of Icebreakers,
one of the first LGBTQ Plussupport lines.
Jonathan (00:50):
Nettie gives us a front row seat on life in the
movement and tells us aboutbeing a woman in often
male-dominated GLF.
You'll hear what it meant to bepart of a grassroots revolution
and how it changed livesforever.
Since recording this episode,Nettie Pollard sadly died on
Christmas Day, 2025.
Nettie, hi, thank you forjoining us.
(01:11):
I wonder if you could tell us abit about your early life.
Um, where were you born?
Where did you grow up?
Nettie (01:17):
Well, I was born in London and grew grew up grew up
there.
I care I had veryliberal-minded parents, so when
I became gay, um the w therewasn't a pro problem with either
of them, and I think I was morethan a little bit um fortunate
in that.
Jonathan (01:35):
And and roughly when was that?
When was the first time yourealised you were LGBT?
Nettie (01:40):
1971.
Jonathan (01:41):
I mean, not early.
So 1971, you you came out toyourself, to your parents, to
everyone, kind of at the sametime?
Nettie (01:49):
Um yes.
Um I'm not wondering how muchto tell you, but I mean my my
best friend um turned out to begay and um and he said he'd been
suicidal.
Ooh.
James (02:04):
How hard was that for you?
Nettie (02:06):
Absolutely devastating.
And I was so angry.
I was just so angry.
Well, exactly, yes, I know.
Um yeah, and I just thought,well, I'm going to dedicate the
rest of my life to stoppingthings like that happening to
people like you.
Jonathan (02:23):
Because it's remarkable to go from coming out
to the Gay Liberation Front inthe same year.
Nettie (02:29):
No, I mean yes, so I mean what happened was we went
my father noticed this thingabout um the Gay Liberation
Front in the newspaper.
And uh Drake said, Oh, thatmight be interesting to go to.
So so off with the.
Your father spotted it.
Yeah, he m he spotted thisthing.
Wow.
And Drake said, Well, that thatsounds interesting, let's go to
that.
So we went to Middle Earth, andit was just it was an absolute
(02:53):
revelation.
I mean, it was, you know, it'sthis enormous dark room with all
not room hall, you know, withlike hundred people in it and
people kissing and talking aboutnon-monogamy and revolution.
And it just seemed likeunbelievable.
Jonathan (03:08):
So I think a lot of people who hear that phrase
Middle Earth will think aboutNew Zealand and the hobbits.
Nettie (03:13):
Well they will, because it was called it was called
after that, but it was just uhit was a place in in Covent
Garden, old Middle Earth.
Wow.
Which is where after the LondonSchool of Economics, it's where
um gay liberation went tobefore it ended up um in
Nottinghill Gate, in all SaintsHall.
Wow.
Jonathan (03:31):
And so so 1971, I guess we've spoken to some
people who when they be whenthey realized they were gay,
they didn't necessarily have avocabulary for who they were,
because they didn't seerepresentations of gay people in
the media, they didn't s theyhadn't read any books.
In 1971, did you feel like, oh,I know what this is?
Nettie (03:51):
Oh, yeah, I didn't think I I did, but I mean it was not
relevant to me.
Jonathan (03:54):
Okay.
Nettie (03:56):
Why why not why was I gay.
James (03:58):
Right, right, right, right.
So your friend was gay.
Nettie (04:01):
That's right, and he told me he was, and as I said, I
just I just said, you know, I'mgonna try and stop this
happening to other people.
And I also find this the mostexciting group that there was,
you know, exciting movement thatthere was.
So I drew myself into intobeing in the gay liberation
front.
James (04:17):
And you're almost motivated by caring for your
friend and for that widercommunity than that.
Yeah, him and everyone else.
Nettie (04:26):
That's so interesting.
I was just a pretty failedheterosexual.
Jonathan (04:32):
And tell us tell us about the early days of the
organization.
What was what drove you?
What was it like to be in thosemeetings?
Nettie (04:40):
Yeah, uh incredibly exciting.
It really was incrediblyexciting.
And I mean I like I liked thefact that there was no proper
structure, a chairman, all thatkind of thing.
They had a they had a a man anda woman each time who had to
chair the meeting.
Um, but pof, and that's allright, anyone could speak and
anyone could make suggestions,and and it was just on a a real
(05:04):
collective basis.
And then there were all thesubgroups and dozens and dozens
of subgroups.
James (05:10):
And we were saying you were saying earlier that some of
your oldest friends are peopleyou met at that time that you're
still in touch with.
Nettie (05:15):
Oh yes, I'm still in touch with most yeah, I mean a
lot of them.
Yeah, I mean I mean obviouslynot everyone is still here.
Sadly.
Sadly.
But um, yeah, no, I've keptkept in touch with an awful lot
of them, or rather got in touchagain.
There was a sort of period whenwe weren't in touch, and then
and then there was a big eventin 2010 where we all got
together again, um, and thenwhen GLF reformed, we were sort
(05:40):
of in touch with everybody.
Yeah.
James (05:42):
And is that testament to how much of a community was
fostered inside GLF?
Nettie (05:47):
And just so, you know, what what an extraordinary
experience we all went through.
I mean, I just can't believethat I was part of the most
exciting movement that therewas.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah.
Nettie (05:57):
You know, I mean, because all these left-wing
movements are sectarian and youknow, I mean, I was never oh, I
was a member of the YoungCommunist League, uh uh, but
only for a year.
God, what a dreadfulorganisation it was.
James (06:08):
That would have hierarchy, I imagine.
Nettie (06:09):
Um, yeah, if you talk to John Lloyd, though, he had a
great time there.
He came out at 14 when he wasin the get in the Young
Communist League.
I found it just a poor.
It was all these men going,Well, when the revolution comes,
you know, and then these womenpottoing around in lots of eye
makeup with the tea.
I mean, honestly, it was aboutas bad as it could get.
Jonathan (06:31):
Oh man, wow.
And there was anotherorganization around at that
time, the campaign forhomosexual equality, the CHE.
What were the differencesbetween the CHE and maybe the
Albany Trust, their activist armand the GLF?
Nettie (06:45):
Oh, well, I mean, um, the Albany Trust is something
different again, but yes, I meanCHE was a sort of respectable
group.
It did very good things withwith um having group meetings
and people getting to know eachother and building up
confidence, and then it did lotsof sort of lobbying for law
reform, whereas with GLF weweren't really that interested
(07:08):
in law reform, didn't oppose it,but it wasn't really what we
were doing.
We wanted um sexual liberationfor everybody.
James (07:16):
Did you see GLF and CHE as kind of fitting together as
part of a wider jigsaw orcompletely as as as it's a bit
different, really.
Nettie (07:25):
I mean, I just I mean I would haven't hadn't I mean I ha
I did actually join CHE later,but that's much later.
But I mean no, I mean I was Iwanted to be part of a
liberation movement, not not a alaw form or something because
you know, law form so you canlose your you know, lose all
these privileges you get and onwhat's just happened to the
(07:46):
trans people.
James (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's uh yeah, I think part ofthe I guess for us motivation of
doing this podcast is toshowcase what has changed, but
also showcase how quickly it canchange back if we don't keep
fighting.
Nettie (08:03):
And I think that's yeah, and I I think I think that's
just so true, which is why Imean GLF wanted to join together
with other liberation groups.
And so we did things like wewent on, I mean, they had
internment in Northern Irelandin 1971, which is people hadn't
been convicted of anything butwere considered to be a danger
(08:24):
and were sent to prison.
Um, and so you know, I Iremember being on the
anti-interment um demonstrationwith um with um Andrew Rumsden
and Stuart Fever.
And what was so interesting isthat when we were on those
demonstrations, the policecouldn't pick us off the way
they did with other people.
(08:44):
Because if they tried to arrestsomebody, we just surrounded
them.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, and I I mean we were justbecause we were really
together, you see, whereas theinternational Marxist groups or
whatever, they were just randompeople who were, you know.
But we have this incrediblebond with every other gay
person, as we call them then,um, who who was with us.
(09:06):
I remember at the Festival ofLight at the big meeting that
they had, and um and some someGLF person kissed a policeman,
and the policeman sort of wentto arrest him, and then sort of
he was absolutely surrounded byus all looking at him like that.
And then he just went, Don't doit again.
(09:26):
He disappeared.
You know, because it was justlike that.
I mean, I don't mean they neverarrested us because they did so
on occasion, as we know therewere a number of uh famous court
cases.
Jonathan (09:37):
But so we've heard about the Festival of Light a
few times.
Oh, it was wonderful.
Nettie (09:41):
I can't believe I was there.
Jonathan (09:43):
Quite specific rules.
What was your opinion?
Nettie (09:45):
Well no, I didn't actually have a roll out of
ticket, but I really rememberBetty Bourne, and I remember the
the youth group throwing abanner and going cliff for
queen.
And I don't believe in outingpeople, but I just think very
occasionally you might make anexception.
Jonathan (10:01):
Were you there for the mice?
Nettie (10:02):
I was there for the mice, and then the nuns were the
best.
And and Betty Bourne going, Ifeel see evil here.
You know, I can feel evil, youremember?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah.
Nettie (10:14):
Um, and and Michael James changing clothes and
going, I've saved, I've saved.
I I I mean, it it just you youcouldn't make it up and it
couldn't happen now.
Because um, you know, it wekept it secret.
They didn't know.
James (10:33):
Because almost each I uh we we understand each group
didn't know what other groupswere going to do.
All they knew is the groupahead of them.
Nettie (10:41):
I mean he just organized the whole thing.
He was a genius, absolutegenius.
I mean, he was a verysuccessful architect, had two
jaguars and um and a house bythe river in Richmond.
Oh wow.
And then he said no.
So he stopped and he went andand squatted in in Colville
houses and was a poet and apainter.
Jonathan (11:04):
Wow.
Nettie (11:04):
And just didn't want it anymore.
Jonathan (11:07):
And was it important to you that the GLF focused on
other uh projects that weren'texclusively LGBT?
Nettie (11:14):
Well, yes, I suppose it were because I'm a came from a
sort of left-wing background,and uh I think other issues are
all part of an oppressivesociety.
Jonathan (11:25):
Did that ever cause conflict within the
organization?
Was there was there a factorthat felt no no we should only
be focusing on LGBT issues?
Nettie (11:32):
Um probably there were.
I can't remember thatparticularly, but I mean
obviously unless you wereinterested in the wider issues,
you wouldn't join those groups.
I mean sort of internationalgroup and what various other
ones.
We also had uh had a transgroup, transsexual,
transvestite, and um what wasthe third bit and uh um
something cross-dressers?
(11:54):
No, no, no, no.
Um you you'll find it in the inthe record.
Yes, and I I mean I I went to ameeting of of that and um I
found that really interesting.
I never had any problem withthe idea of transsexualism.
I just thought it's part ofsexual liberation, it's part of
who we are, and um and I'm andso I mean some pe some people
(12:16):
were a bit worried about havinghaving transsexuals involved,
but not generally.
Jonathan (12:21):
You mentioned this the committees earlier, and I
believe that you were a part ofthe counterpsychiatry committee.
Nettie (12:28):
We didn't had no committees, they were groups, so
it's not the same thing, yousee.
I mean, anyone could go.
So you didn't have to beelected or anything.
Right.
Yes, I uh every um other Sundaywe met at 24 Ivor Street, which
is where um Mickey Burbage andJeffrey Weeks lived.
Jonathan (12:45):
And tell us a bit more about the Counter Psychiatry
Group and what its what itspurpose was and why you felt
that that needed to be there.
Nettie (12:52):
Well, I think it was it was partly because of um because
of um being gay, being um I'mnot going to do LGDT, but
because it well in those days itwas gay.
Gay meant everybody, includingtransvestites, interestingly
enough, because not necessarilyeven sort of homosexual.
James (13:09):
Was that a media catch-all expression or was and
something that you had to try toliberate that expression?
Nettie (13:14):
We we we did that, yeah.
James (13:15):
In a sense, being not liberated subsequently as well.
Nettie (13:19):
Um but then I mean, obviously the word problems with
it because it wasn't includedit was then started to be
thought of as just as gay men,and then the all the problems
that we'd now got the ridiculousalphabet soup.
James (13:31):
It's quite a lot of alphabet.
A lot of alphabet.
Nettie (13:34):
Yeah, it's a lot of alphabet.
Yes, because of um uhhomosexuality being considered
to be um an illness, um, orcrime and an illness, but
particularly an illness thatneeded to be cured um with
therapy and with aversiontherapy and things like that.
So we we did um a lot of workon that, uh including organising
(13:57):
a conference which was aimed umpartly at professionals that we
held at um at the LSE inDecember um 1971.
James (14:07):
Say more about that.
I mean, I'm really interested.
Nettie (14:09):
So that was Yeah, some people did actually come, and
Charlotte Wolfe came and a fewother people who actually were
in the profession.
I'm interested.
But all the speakers were GLF,including Paul Bunting and Mary
McIntosh, um and um there's butthere's a you'll find a list
somewhere of of who who whospoke.
It was really impressive.
(14:30):
I brought my mother.
Jonathan (14:31):
Oh wow, oh wow.
Nettie (14:32):
Yeah, that was a and and my friend Jim Scott from GLF
said, Your mother.
Oh, I thought that was someterrible old dyke from the from
the what's the name of thewomen's club?
The only big lesbian club thatwas started in the 1930s and not
long ago, and there would havebeen a um a TV documentary about
(14:55):
it recently.
Jonathan (14:56):
Yes, and has gone out of my head as well.
I'm so sorry.
Uh but we'll find that outeverybody and we'll we'll we'll
we'll say it at the end.
Nettie (15:03):
Um I told you my parents were quite interested in these
things.
James (15:07):
Yeah, sounds like they were uh you had extraordinary
parents as as well as well.
And and so so in this in thisconference that you organise,
you had professional did didwere professional what?
Nettie (15:18):
Professional people coming through it.
James (15:20):
Yes, to learn, to learn that product.
And were they open-minded?
Were they were they there tokind of think I think they gave
them something to think about,yeah.
And and almost rethink some oftheir professional practices,
what they taught at universityand other.
Nettie (15:33):
Yes, I suppose they were obviously more liberal people,
or they wouldn't they wouldn'thave been there, but it was just
beginning to think so perhapsit isn't an illness, perhaps it
isn't something that needs to becured.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah.
Nettie (15:44):
Um that's part part, I mean again, that's the whole
thing with GLF, you know.
There's nothing wrong with us.
Yeah.
We love.
Yeah, we want revolution.
James (15:53):
Yeah, we're not ill.
Nettie (15:54):
We don't want we, you know, there's nothing wrong.
James (15:56):
Yeah.
unknown (15:56):
Yeah.
Nettie (15:56):
It's just who we are.
James (15:57):
It's not chosen either.
Jonathan (15:59):
This is this is this is the way we are.
Nettie (16:01):
Yeah.
Jonathan (16:02):
Did you f did the organization feel very
independent to the USorganization or did you tend to
follow their lead?
Nettie (16:08):
No, no.
I think we were completelyindependent, really.
Jonathan (16:11):
Could you tell us about icebreakers?
Nettie (16:13):
And icebreakers came out of the um counter-psychiatry
group.
Because we were sitting there.
James (16:19):
Which was the group that organised the conference.
Nettie (16:21):
Which is the group that organised the conference and
various other things.
Um and did the um psychiatryand the homosexual uh brief
analysis of oppression.
Um, which is the which is thepamphlet that we brought out,
which, amongst other things, bythe way, introduced the world to
um uh to um Alan.
(16:41):
I'm sorry about the brain fog.
It just does all these things Iknow perfectly well, and
suddenly I can't remember thembecause of the long COVID.
Yeah, um that was the firsttime anyone had ever heard of
him.
Okay.
Wow.
Andrew Hawthorne's wrote wrotethat, and he's subsequently
wrote books and films about it,and and and we all know what
(17:04):
what happened.
James (17:05):
Yeah, of course.
Nettie (17:06):
But I mean I was horrified to hear about that.
James (17:08):
Yeah.
Nettie (17:08):
It really was.
I didn't know I didn't knowthere was a codebreaker called
that, or that he was gay, orthat he'd been persecuted in the
way he was.
Um icebreakers.
So um one day we were just wewere just thinking, you know,
what are we what can we do aboutthe fact that most gay people
just don't have the confidenceto to join GLF.
(17:29):
We couldn't join it exactlybecause it had no members but
become part of the movement.
Um, and we thought, well, maybeif we could set up a sort of
telephone helpline um and itwould help introduce people to
to GLF.
And so um a core group of usfrom counterpsychiatry got
(17:51):
together and uh there and theneventually and then there was
quite a long time before wecould find some premises.
And by then it wasn't just acase of getting people into GLF
because GLF was beginning tosort of collapse.
So it was that was obviouslyobvious that we needed something
much wider than that.
Um so we were a self-selectinggroup.
(18:13):
So we did the phone every dayof the year.
Every day.
Yeah, every day, wow.
Every day for 7 30 till 10.
James (18:22):
So people could ring in those hours knew that they could
ring.
Nettie (18:26):
Yeah, and then speak yeah.
Ice it's so what is the thingon the stickers say isolated
homosexual women and men canring icebreakers any day of the
week between 7:30 and 10 andspeak to another gay person.
Right.
James (18:40):
And that was that was a big part of it was someone that
that could relate to what theywere going through that had been
through ice cream.
Exactly.
Nettie (18:47):
So you know, and that we felt happy and you know, and
content with who we were.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah.
Nettie (18:53):
Um, and so we got uh I I mean just thousands of calls.
I mean, the the phone line wasalways busy, and we had and the
variety of people were just justincredible again.
James (19:02):
Yeah.
And and what sort ofcircumstances do people call
from?
Um I'm sure you heard everystory.
So I'm sure some of them werequite harrowing as well.
Nettie (19:11):
Oh, oh yes, uh absolutely.
I mean, we had people who wereso suicidal.
I remember this man rang up andsaid he was suicidal at that
moment, and then unlike othergroups, what we did, um, because
we did we did we did reallythink it might be true, um, we
we actually just uh uh two ofthere were three of us there, so
two of us actually went um justgot into my car and we drove to
(19:32):
where he said he was going tothrow himself off the bridge.
Oh, wow and and rescued him.
Oh, he was there.
Oh yeah, he was there, and umand one of the things that we
offered um was called teaparties.
And that is every Sunday atsomebody's house or flat, um
we'd run a tea party for anyonethat had rung up who might want
(19:55):
to meet other people.
Because obviously most peopleare really isolated in those
days.
So we had um tea parties everySunday, and then every Friday
evening we had women's teaparties, which was just for the
women, because in those days,you know, it was so much hotter
for women and there were so farfar fewer lesbians around, you
know, because when they uh andum so it was a a case of giving
(20:18):
support and you know and alsoopportunities for having sex and
romance and you know, just andjust having a good time.
So you just came um for as manytimes as you wanted, you'd be
telled what when the next wherethe next tea party was.
I mean, it was extraordinarythat I mean we, you know, we we
weren't vetted in any way, andwe you know, we were completely
(20:39):
open of what we what we did.
I mean, we could we we knewthat we might easily um be
charged with something likeconspiracy to corrupt public
morals or you know, be becausewe we didn't have any lower age
limit on the what people so wehad people like me 12 and things
like that.
We might go even go and meetthem.
And um, you know, because we wemay easily have, you know,
(21:02):
people may have committedbuggery because because of
ringing us, you know, we'reunderage.
And so we really knew that itthat that we it was a
possibility.
And if it was now, we probablywould all have been arrested.
James (21:15):
Did how how did you uh cope with some of the harrowing
stories that you that you heardthat that you know you were
putting yourself in a positionof probably quite traumatic
stories being told to you?
Yeah, absolutely.
Nettie (21:29):
How did how did And I mean obviously we also meet
people one to one quite quiteoften if they were in a really
bad state?
Yeah.
Just as we'll get go and meetthem and have tea and things
like that, and then maybe latertry and get them to come to a
tea party, maybe meet us beforeand then and then come in.
Yes, I mean, you know yes, Imean, people who do um lesbians
(21:50):
who'd lost their children, youknow, because in custody things,
things like that were reallyterrible.
Jonathan (21:56):
Can you tell us a little bit more about the
experience for lesbians at thattime?
Because you know, we'vetypically you hear about the
experiences for gay men, youhear about the importuning, you
hear about the the the raids onthe um the cottages, but you you
don't hear as much about theterrible things that women went
(22:17):
through at that time, losingtheir children.
Can you share a bit about whatyou're experiencing?
Nettie (22:21):
Well I mean I didn't have bad experiences because I
wasn't in that position, and Iwasn't wasn't and at that point
I wasn't even a lesbian.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yes.
Nettie (22:29):
So yippee, I managed you later on, which is great.
But no, I didn't go through allthose terrible things.
But yes, I mean people be it umI mean there was I mean women
in general, I mean they just hadI mean we didn't, you know, at
that point, you know, we didn'tdidn't have equal pay, we didn't
have anti-discrimination, we duh um rape was legal, not well,
(22:51):
not actually criminal inmarriage, um assaulting partners
within reason again was notagainst the law.
Um it was everything.
And and I mean women wereexpected to get married, so so
lesbians generally did.
I mean, I I remember um in thewhi women's group um was saying,
(23:12):
you know, it was anyone whohadn't had sex as a man, and
there was only one person thathadn't.
You know, and these were allproper lesbians.
James (23:20):
And that was societal pressure, yeah.
Nettie (23:24):
You're meant to have a boyfriend and meant to get
married and to get married, andI mean that the pressure on men
too, but not to the same extent.
Um because women, you know, Imean, it sh you know, you've got
to have um you know, have a joband you've got to have a um
somewhere to live, and it's I Ijust think things were much,
(23:46):
much harder.
And women can were consideredto be inferior.
I mean it's real you know, Ireally remember that kind of
thing, really irritatingly.
Um I remember when I was atlike about five and um we had
this do at the at my school andthere was an ice cream van
there, and I and um they gave methe ice cream free.
(24:07):
And um I said, Oh, why do youthink they did that?
And they said, I think it'sbecause your dress your dress
was so pretty, and I justthought, oh god, there's nothing
against pretty dresses really,but oh, I'll have oh no, I mean
I can't be part of any of that.
So I sort of rejected the wholeheterosexist society, even
though um I wasn't I wasn'tactually attracted to them.
James (24:29):
Was was it because part of it was rejecting also the
kind of male-dominatedpatriarchal society.
Yeah, absolutely.
Did you find that inside thethe campaigning work as well?
Nettie (24:42):
Well, the the the yeah, well I mean it was really was
dominated by men, and there wasa there was a real problem with
that.
Um I mean, they were reallyinterested in men's issues, and
they'd say well, gay peoplecottage.
And I'm thinking, well, harhardly any women actually.
What you mean is men.
Right, you know, and anyhow,why is it that you're so so
(25:02):
obsessed with?
Um, and men tended to be verydominant at the the meetings,
the big meetings, that is.
It was let it was not that waslet much less true in the
subgroups, and certainly not inin um counterpsychiatry, which
was I mean, it was mainly men,but but there was no sort of
towards the end of the GLF,which burned brightly, but for
(25:23):
quite a short time.
James (25:24):
I think what one of the sort of senses is that a lot of
women said this isn't a placefor us, really.
Nettie (25:30):
Uh I quite understand that.
James (25:32):
And did that precipitate?
Nettie (25:34):
Yes, so so the women uh did eventually walk out.
I didn't I I didn't, but um Ithink that definitely both sides
were much poorer for itafterwards.
The the women gay women'sliberation never really came to
anything.
And the the rest of the gayliberation sort of started
fizzling out.
But then I think maybe it wassort of one of those bright
(25:57):
magical things that couldn'thave lasted.
Because it there was just somuch energy.
It was like Yeah, you know, andwe were going in all these
directions and doing all thesedifferent things that were arts
and protest and writing leafletsand demonstrating and can it
can you tell us a bit aboutwhere you think that energy came
from?
Jonathan (26:18):
What was it about 1971, that early part of the
70s?
Nettie (26:21):
Yeah, I I think it was coming out of other radical
movements like the anti-VietnamWar, um, women's liberation,
black liberation, children'sliberation, the hippies.
And there was a lot of energythere.
And and these were I mean,these weren't one what might
call the average gay people.
I mean, you know, they weretended to be the more sort of
(26:43):
artistic and uh political typeof people who who really wanted
to change things and and have alot of fun as well.
I mean, you know, the thing isGLF was enormously fun.
We really, really had such fun.
James (26:57):
I think that's that's part of what's so important
about this is that campaigningactivism is can be fun.
You can make lifelong friends,you can you can be part of
something so big and so muchbigger than yourself, but also
when you feel that you're makingprogress.
Nettie (27:11):
Yes, and we we did.
I mean, because yes, I mean youcould do something every day of
the week pretty well.
Um, you know, because m MondayI'd go to because I did, I just
absolutely threw myself intothis, and and um you and I I
believed that we should come outtotally, and therefore I wore a
gay liberation front badgeeverywhere all the time.
(27:33):
Wow.
Um you could do things just thewhole time.
I mean, on Monday there was theAction Group, which met in the
GLF office in Caledonian Road.
Um, Tuesday there's the RedLesbian Brigade, which was a
little radical lesbian bit,which did read that and and did
things like spray paintings andand went to the stock exchange
(27:54):
and and spray painted it, soldthe cock brokers.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Wow.
Nettie (27:59):
Remember, only men were allowed in Wow.
And we did it, it was suchfunny.
And then Wednesday was the bigmeetings, which might be up but
up to about 500 people.
And I mean, those are just soexciting to just be with so many
people all pushing in the samedirection.
James (28:15):
Every week up to 500 people.
Nettie (28:17):
Yeah, it could be as many as that, yeah.
That's amazing.
Um somewhere, I mean it varied,and of course nobody was
counting, which was just whichwas wonderful.
Um, and then and then Thursdaywas Camden GLF because I was
living in Highgate at the time,so that's local for me.
Um, and then that was Thursday,then Friday um was the women's
(28:38):
group.
So I was in Nottinghill Gateand I'd go to that, and then uh
Saturday that you know theremight be a demo or making
banners or doing something elseor have a sink-in, or maybe not,
maybe have a day off.
And then Sunday was uh everyother Sunday was um
counterpsychiatry.
But I mean there were so manygroups.
I mean, there were about Idon't know, 30 groups, something
(28:59):
like that.
I mean, cover night workers,the Jewish group, media
workshop, street theatre, uhendless different groups.
Jonathan (29:07):
And how did you form a group?
Nettie (29:09):
You just said I want to form a group, and you Yeah,
people just said, Oh, let's havea yeah, it's basically that.
Remember at a main meeting andsay, Well, we haven't got a
group for Jewish people.
Why don't why why don't we havea Jewish group?
And we could they can meet atmy place.
You know, I think that wasMichael Brown, I think, was the
person that suggested that.
Okay.
So they said, Well, okay, sohere's the address and um off we
(29:31):
go.
James (29:31):
Presumably it's uh sooner or later there weren't enough
days in the week for all thethings.
Nettie (29:35):
Oh no, there's no way, no, no, no, not anything
overlap.
You could do yes, no, therewere about about 20 groups, I
think, most of the time.
So um yes.
James (29:43):
No one no wonder this was a community you're still in
touch with because you spent somuch time with people.
Nettie (29:48):
Well, I also met so many people.
You know, I mean, I ri reallygot to know so many people.
It's interesting that you werestill in touch because it was
pre-internet.
I mean, if we have somethingnow, yeah, then everybody's good
exchanging all their emails andWhatsApps and Facebook pro you
know, doesn't mean this isbefore anything like that.
People didn't even not everyoneeven had telephones.
(30:10):
I mean most people did, but andlandline.
James (30:14):
Yeah, the landline.
In in the sense that it waspre-internet.
Um does it also mean it wasquite localized to London?
And so you if you wanted to getreally involved in the way that
you were, you could only reallydo that if you lived.
Nettie (30:26):
No, there were other groups like Leeds, for instance.
Okay.
James (30:29):
And they were they were sort of connected loosely or
only lo uh yeah, loosely.
Jonathan (30:34):
Right.
Nettie (30:34):
Yeah.
Jonathan (30:36):
So we heard someone say that actually the that
spreading out of the GLF, thethe fact that you started to get
local chapters around the placediluted it somewhat.
D did you feel that way?
Nettie (30:48):
No.
Jonathan (30:48):
No.
Nettie (30:49):
I don't think so.
No.
I don't I don't know.
I mean, I'm I mean the only oneI was involved with at local I
mean was the Camden GLF.
Okay.
And I don't think that had anyeffect on the main one.
One thing that we did that wasreally fun, um, was we decided
to crash the that means gowithout an invitation, if um the
(31:12):
time out party in Piccadilly.
Jonathan (31:15):
I have never heard this story.
Please tell us.
Nettie (31:18):
So we've all piled into my car to go because we didn't
care about how many people werein the car in those days, so we
had about seven or eight of usin my car.
It was quite a big car.
James (31:29):
Okay, I was gonna say, I hope it wasn't a mini.
Nettie (31:30):
No, there wasn't a mini mini, it was an Anglia state.
No, that's um, and and we wejust went to the theatre the the
the where I was doing, and themo most um Ford of us just said
GLS Street Theatre.
And then we just walked in.
James (31:49):
Charged right through the doors.
Yeah.
Wow.
Nettie (31:52):
And Bobby, who was um a trans um part of GLS, really was
really performing there.
Not quite sure what pronounBobby actually used, maybe it's
they.
Anyhow, but um so um and Bobbydid a strip tease.
Oh wow, and you know, and sortof beautiful breasts and
everything.
And then at the very lastmoment he opened his legs and
(32:15):
his penis and balls cut out, andyou just should have seen them.
Oh wow.
I mean, all these trendy, timeout, sort of sophisticated
London people that they they'dnever seen anything like that
before.
Wow.
James (32:28):
And that but that was a proper, that was a part of the
actual that that was actuallypart, yes.
Nettie (32:31):
But it doesn't we were nothing to do with the streets.
We just went in as well.
Jonathan (32:37):
Wonderful.
And I believe the GLF wasinvolved in the protest of the
Miss World Pageant of the AlbertHall.
Nettie (32:44):
Yes.
Uh that um I um I went to thethe one in 1971, obviously not
the one in 1970 because I was Iwasn't there.
And we had um people dressed upas Miss uh in drag, sort of
misused and misunderstood.
Jonathan (33:02):
Misused is a very good drag.
Nettie (33:03):
Yeah, right.
There's a bit there's somegreat photographs of uh uh of
that.
And then we also we were alllinking arms um sort of round
the round the Albert Hall.
And this police officer cameand start and started to um
pretty put his hands throughthis.
Wasn't actually someone fromGLF.
The man that I was linked armswith.
(33:24):
And he swept like that.
And I went I can see whatyou're doing, PC 651, or
whatever it was, and so hesuddenly just let go.
But I thought, what was hethinking of?
Wow.
unknown (33:35):
Wow.
Nettie (33:36):
But I mean it was a really, a really joyous
occasion.
We we and we went to the Oztrial and things like that.
Jonathan (33:43):
But was the Oz Trial?
Nettie (33:44):
The Oz Trial was um Oz was what's called an underground
magazine that um was run bythree editors.
Um, Jim Anderson, who was inGLF, and Dennis, who later was
later the founder of The Weekand various others, and a very
successful business person, andRichard Neville, um, who was a
(34:06):
sort of underground activistfrom um Australia.
And so they'd have have thisunderground magazine with all
sorts of subversive articles,and one day they thought, I
know, let's have a school kid'sOz.
So they had um an issue of Ozwritten entirely um Felix
(34:28):
Dennis, that's all, um entirelyby by people who were still at
school, and including all sortsof highly political and highly
obscene articles, and um and VivBerger wrote uh um one called
um Gypsy G Rupert Bear and GypsyGranny, where Rupert Bear was
(34:52):
fucking Gypsy Granny.
I mean it was quite a wholecool stuff.
Wow Yeah, I mean it was onlycartoons, it was a joke, you
know.
And um so they so the statedecided to prosecute for
conspiracy to corrupt publicmalls.
Wow.
So they were all all taken tocourt, um and they were and um
(35:18):
they were endeavored and theycut their hair because obviously
they had all had very long hairand they cut into prison
haircuts and um anyhow, and Imean eventually they were
exonerated and everything wasoverturned, but um and but GLF
took a took a big part in in thedemonstrations outside outside
(35:39):
the O'Bailey.
Jonathan (35:40):
Gosh, wow.
And tell us a little bit, ifyou can, about the ending of the
GLF.
Nettie (35:46):
Can't tell you very much, um, really, because in um
because I I joined in the uhjoined, became active in the
April, um and then um by theFebruary afterwards, um I had um
I'd met another woman.
And um GLF was fading thenanyway, and we became very
(36:11):
active in um claimants union inin Tottenham and squatting and
that kind of thing, so they sayvery much openly with our GLF
badges the whole time.
Um but I didn't really go verymuch because uh I mean it was
fading, it was it was just andit was it just wasn't wasn't
exciting the way it was.
And it was sad.
James (36:33):
A big change in life to go from every single day of the
week to be doing something withGLF.
Nettie (36:38):
Well, except I was doing other things.
James (36:39):
Right, right.
Similar, but with a similarobjective.
So that activism.
Nettie (36:43):
Yeah, but I was continuing to to be and be an
activist.
I just wasn't I mean, I was no,of course, I know that that uh
at that point I wasn't doingicebreakers, but I no, but but
yeah because that didn't startimmediately as I have territory,
it didn't start till 1973.
Yeah, by which time the GLFvirtually didn't exist.
James (37:01):
Oh, really?
So it was clear it was comingto an end.
It was it was pretty much anend.
Nettie (37:05):
It was just running down.
I mean, you can't have thatlevel of um of ideas and new
initiatives and energypermanently.
That's why something like CHEcould continue and continue and
continue and continue, becauseit was all committees and you
know, socials and um, you know,and and lot lots of good stuff,
(37:27):
but but completely different.
I mean there were there wasn'treally uh practically nobody who
was in GF was also in CHE,isn't that interesting?
I mean, I'm and and I wasn't tobegin with, though I was later,
and indeed I I I was on theexecutive committee of CHE from
2010 or 11.
Jonathan (37:45):
And tell us a bit about that.
How was the transition for youto go to, I guess, an
establishment organization fromthese revolutionary
counterculture organizations?
Nettie (37:56):
Well, no, I mean I'd also I mean I'd I'd uh also
worked for the National Councilfor Civil Liberties.
Jonathan (38:02):
Okay.
Nettie (38:02):
So I was do it doing um gay rights work there amongst um
other things.
And so I was working with theestablishment there.
So I mean, yes, I was wor I wassort of used to doing that.
Yeah, I I mean I see it youthvery very pleasant organisation
with very friendly, nice people,but but not not any kind of
revolutionary aims.
Jonathan (38:22):
And if you look back at your very long career of
activism, are there some pointsthat you think, oh, I'm super
proud of that?
Nettie (38:30):
Um yeah, I think well well, a number of things really.
I think going to the Festivalof Light, I was just so proud to
be there.
I really, really was.
And uh and indeed to be on thefirst Gay Pride March, because
it was called a Gay Pride Marchthen.
And oh no, actually, no, I wasI thought I think it was
actually the march before I wasmore proud to be on, which was
(38:51):
there was there was the actualum Gay Pride March, which was in
July um 1972.
But um in 1971, the youth groupum organised a march against
the age of consent.
Really?
Yes.
And so the the youth groupreally was a youth group.
(39:13):
If you were if you were overover 21, you could go to one
meeting.
So I was 21 and I went to onemeeting in Tough La Park.
I mean, that was just such arevelation.
I mean, everyone there wasunder 21, something like 14.
Um, they were so confident andso full of ideas, and and they
(39:35):
got it together to organise thefirst ever sort of march.
I mean, can you be they alsoorganized the um gay pride march
as well, though that's not wellknown.
People think it was AndrewLumsden that um that organized,
and he didn't.
He went on it.
He was involved in it.
So so the youth group the youthgroup did it but did both
marches.
(39:55):
Yes, I mean they they they Andit was quite successful and
quite big.
Jonathan (40:02):
And that first march against the age of consent, what
was that like?
Nettie (40:06):
Yes, tell us about it.
Well, I mean, there were a lotquite a lot of people there, not
that many, you know, a coupleof hundred, say, something like
that.
And um and very radical and umand PK uh um getting up on stage
saying, did you wait till youwere 21?
And yeah, and then they andthey had people kissing on the
stage.
(40:26):
And we also we went to um afterthe um the march, we went to
Hyde Park.
And um do you know I'm I'mmixing it up a bit with with
with something with the withwith the Pride March, anyhow,
whichever it was, and it doesn'tmatter, because this bit is
absolutely true.
All went to Hyde Park, and ummost of the men just took all
(40:49):
their clothes off, including thesaid Andrew Longston, who was
who Nature had to go in for toto work at the time.
So he had a business suit on,he took everything off, and so
did all the others.
Oh wow.
Um and then they're all dancedancing round and kissing and
they're and uh and the policejust didn't know what to they
(41:10):
they just what do you do with aload of people?
James (41:14):
If it was one person they could start arresting them
strength in numbers, that wasthe whole the whole nature and
the basic.
Yeah, that was that was thepride one.
Yeah, but yeah.
Nettie (41:22):
That was where where that one happened, yeah.
Um and yeah, and we wereplaying Ames and playing this, I
think we know spin the bottlething, and then and then you
have to go and kiss the personthat's there.
But remember, even um even sortof passionate kissing could be
described as some sort of umgross indecency.
People had actually beenprosecuted for kissing.
(41:43):
And we just challenged all thatcompletely.
Um being in the women's group,I'm just taking um we had uh it
started off um we met at MaryMcIntosh's house, um 37 Amundal
Square in Islington.
(42:03):
Um and um so that so we met ona a Friday night and um and
talked and pla planned actionsand things like that, and people
people would be drinking beerand um and I I felt, oh gosh, I
shouldn't be here, I reallyshouldn't be here because I'm
not a lesbian.
But luckily nobody ever askedme, believe it or not.
(42:23):
I never had to lie.
And um that was obviously verycommitted, and and and that and
so we had we had some reallygood, good um, we did some zaps
and we did all sorts of really,really good things, and we went
on women's liberation marchesand uh as a sort of contingent
(42:45):
and the um abortion marches aswell, and we brought a lot of
the men with us to that, we I'mpleased to say.
When you say you did zaps, whatwhat what th things like like
um going to Harley Street and umand and and um whitewashing the
(43:07):
uh um the road with with withslogans about about aversion so
it's the kind of thing that tothe that that GLF did.
Um and then we moved to to toNottinghill Gate to Faraday
Road, where it was uh um awomen's squat.
Jonathan (43:25):
Okay.
Nettie (43:25):
And but though Richard Dipple was uh was there, Richard
Dipple was one of the peoplewho helped form the um gay men's
press later.
Jonathan (43:34):
Oh right, okay.
Nettie (43:35):
And um so he was he was what one man and there were
seven or eight women.
And then we we'd meet we'd meetthere on uh Friday.
It was a completely differentatmosphere then because uh that
was all dope smoking.
That wasn't that wasn't thebeer.
So we moved from being sort ofworking class type atmosphere to
this sort of rather hippie.
Jonathan (43:53):
Right.
And so I so I asked you withthe Proudwitz, is there anything
that you look back on and youthink, oh, I wish we hadn't done
that?
Nettie (44:00):
Probably.
Um I think uh I think somepeople who are sort of like and
uh uh saying heterosexuality wasrubbish and things like that, I
think that was a a pity.
Um but there wasn't very muchof that really, to be to be
honest.
Jonathan (44:18):
And looking at the world today and looking at young
people, and and one of thethings we're hoping that young
people will listen to this, um,which is why we've done it in
this format.
Do you have a message from alifetime of activism?
Nettie (44:32):
Yes, I mean I would say don't trust the establishment.
James (44:36):
Organise and when you look at the world today, what
parallels do you see from yourhistory of activism and your
experiences going right?
Nettie (44:52):
Um, I mean we didn't invent that, but I think but it
will with that it was it wasessential to the way we work,
the fact that within egalitarianthing where where everybody's
view could be taken into view itand and anyone could, you know,
for instance, if we were going,we have these things called
think-ins, which is we would umand let's say it's things like I
(45:13):
think we should uh you know,somebody would get up and say,
Oh, I think we should talk talkabout the position of women in
the organization.
Why don't we have a think-in onit?
And so then we'd we'd hiresomewhere and go and go there on
a Saturday, and then everybodysit around and talk about women.
I mean, I remember I rememberthat, that one particularly, and
I mean that just came fromsomebody who just said it would
(45:33):
be a good idea, and then thenext thing you know, we've got
sort of like 60 people who'veturned up and want to talk about
it.
James (45:39):
Wow.
And I guess it's there's thissense that for a lot of people
kind of growing up now, well,we've we've we've won equality,
we've got the legal change, whatmore is there to fight for?
And and I think you woulddisagree with that idea
strongly.
Nettie (45:54):
As I said in my uh a few years ago my interview in in uh
um Gay Times, think Trump,think Bolson Bolsonaro from
Brazil.
You know, I mean they're goingto take things back.
I mean, you know, I thinkthey're going to I think it's
highly likely that they're gonnathey're gonna I guess they're
gonna try aversions aversiontherapy, conversion therapy for
(46:14):
trans people, I noticed fromyesterday's news.
Because you know they're notnot recognizing trans people,
and then I just think it's all ait's all an illness and it, you
know, and trans health care isa salt and and um and um many
people think they're going tostop same-sex marriage as well.
(46:36):
Though I think it is I meanit's it varies from state to
state, doesn't it?
But in America, yeah.
There is a I think there'sgoing to be quite a an anti-gay
thing happening in America andthat you you you know it can
easily come here.
It really can.
Because I don't thinkeveryone's as comfortable with
it as as we think they are.
James (46:56):
We haven't fully won the hearts and minds.
Nettie (46:58):
I don't think so, no.
And I think that the late thelatest trans issue decision, um,
you know, which is so popular,is really worrying.
Yeah.
You know, it's as though, youknow, women don't uh have this
terrible danger from transwomen.
No, it's from men.
And it's the state.
James (47:18):
Yeah.
Your stories of your activism,the work that you've done, the
work on icebreakers andobviously GLF has been just
absolutely extraordinary.
And it's been amazing to hearyour story today.
Nettie (47:31):
I mean, it's just it's just it was I can't believe I
have had such an exciting life.
You know, because I did, I sortof thought, you know, I'm just
going to be an unsuccessfulheterosexual, won't really meet
anybody, and uh God I knowprobably would work in a lot be
aged 40, and I'd be working in alibrary, and my parents will
have died, and oh dear, and thensuddenly, the stars, you know.
(47:53):
I mean, just the amount ofexcitement I've had in in my
life and being part of this sortof incredible, incredible
movement, and having all thesefriends and lovers, and it's
just been wonderful.
James (48:06):
Not just exciting, but it's been impactful.
You've you've you've made ahuge difference to so many
people's lives, including theperson that you that that you
you met on the bridge, but butso many other people's lives in
terms of the changes that you'vemade into culture, hearts and
minds, legal frameworks, and andsociety more generally.
So so thank you for all of yourdecades of activism, and and
(48:28):
and I've I've found this soinspiring.
We found this inspiring andhope other people do too.
Jonathan (48:38):
Thank you for listening to The View From Here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (48:49):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund hit on the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Equality, and for some peoplein Stonewall like me, equality
(00:24):
was kind of like what you got toas a starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to The View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
James (00:42):
Today we're joined by Nettie Pollard, an early
activist in the Gay LiberationFront and part of Icebreakers,
one of the first LGBTQ Plussupport lines.
Jonathan (00:50):
Nettie gives us a front row seat on life in the
movement and tells us aboutbeing a woman in often
male-dominated GLF.
You'll hear what it meant to bepart of a grassroots revolution
and how it changed livesforever.
Since recording this episode,Nettie Pollard sadly died on
Christmas Day, 2025.
Nettie, hi, thank you forjoining us.
(01:11):
I wonder if you could tell us abit about your early life.
Um, where were you born?
Where did you grow up?
Nettie (01:17):
Well, I was born in London and grew grew up grew up
there.
I care I had veryliberal-minded parents, so when
I became gay, um the w therewasn't a pro problem with either
of them, and I think I was morethan a little bit um fortunate
in that.
Jonathan (01:35):
And and roughly when was that?
When was the first time yourealised you were LGBT?
Nettie (01:40):
1971.
Jonathan (01:41):
I mean, not early.
So 1971, you you came out toyourself, to your parents, to
everyone, kind of at the sametime?
Nettie (01:49):
Um yes.
Um I'm not wondering how muchto tell you, but I mean my my
best friend um turned out to begay and um and he said he'd been
suicidal.
Ooh.
James (02:04):
How hard was that for you?
Nettie (02:06):
Absolutely devastating.
And I was so angry.
I was just so angry.
Well, exactly, yes, I know.
Um yeah, and I just thought,well, I'm going to dedicate the
rest of my life to stoppingthings like that happening to
people like you.
Jonathan (02:23):
Because it's remarkable to go from coming out
to the Gay Liberation Front inthe same year.
Nettie (02:29):
No, I mean yes, so I mean what happened was we went
my father noticed this thingabout um the Gay Liberation
Front in the newspaper.
And uh Drake said, Oh, thatmight be interesting to go to.
So so off with the.
Your father spotted it.
Yeah, he m he spotted thisthing.
Wow.
And Drake said, Well, that thatsounds interesting, let's go to
that.
So we went to Middle Earth, andit was just it was an absolute
(02:53):
revelation.
I mean, it was, you know, it'sthis enormous dark room with all
not room hall, you know, withlike hundred people in it and
people kissing and talking aboutnon-monogamy and revolution.
And it just seemed likeunbelievable.
Jonathan (03:08):
So I think a lot of people who hear that phrase
Middle Earth will think aboutNew Zealand and the hobbits.
Nettie (03:13):
Well they will, because it was called it was called
after that, but it was just uhit was a place in in Covent
Garden, old Middle Earth.
Wow.
Which is where after the LondonSchool of Economics, it's where
um gay liberation went tobefore it ended up um in
Nottinghill Gate, in all SaintsHall.
Wow.
Jonathan (03:31):
And so so 1971, I guess we've spoken to some
people who when they be whenthey realized they were gay,
they didn't necessarily have avocabulary for who they were,
because they didn't seerepresentations of gay people in
the media, they didn't s theyhadn't read any books.
In 1971, did you feel like, oh,I know what this is?
Nettie (03:51):
Oh, yeah, I didn't think I I did, but I mean it was not
relevant to me.
Jonathan (03:54):
Okay.
Nettie (03:56):
Why why not why was I gay.
James (03:58):
Right, right, right, right.
So your friend was gay.
Nettie (04:01):
That's right, and he told me he was, and as I said, I
just I just said, you know, I'mgonna try and stop this
happening to other people.
And I also find this the mostexciting group that there was,
you know, exciting movement thatthere was.
So I drew myself into intobeing in the gay liberation
front.
James (04:17):
And you're almost motivated by caring for your
friend and for that widercommunity than that.
Yeah, him and everyone else.
Nettie (04:26):
That's so interesting.
I was just a pretty failedheterosexual.
Jonathan (04:32):
And tell us tell us about the early days of the
organization.
What was what drove you?
What was it like to be in thosemeetings?
Nettie (04:40):
Yeah, uh incredibly exciting.
It really was incrediblyexciting.
And I mean I like I liked thefact that there was no proper
structure, a chairman, all thatkind of thing.
They had a they had a a man anda woman each time who had to
chair the meeting.
Um, but pof, and that's allright, anyone could speak and
anyone could make suggestions,and and it was just on a a real
(05:04):
collective basis.
And then there were all thesubgroups and dozens and dozens
of subgroups.
James (05:10):
And we were saying you were saying earlier that some of
your oldest friends are peopleyou met at that time that you're
still in touch with.
Nettie (05:15):
Oh yes, I'm still in touch with most yeah, I mean a
lot of them.
Yeah, I mean I mean obviouslynot everyone is still here.
Sadly.
Sadly.
But um, yeah, no, I've keptkept in touch with an awful lot
of them, or rather got in touchagain.
There was a sort of period whenwe weren't in touch, and then
and then there was a big eventin 2010 where we all got
together again, um, and thenwhen GLF reformed, we were sort
(05:40):
of in touch with everybody.
Yeah.
James (05:42):
And is that testament to how much of a community was
fostered inside GLF?
Nettie (05:47):
And just so, you know, what what an extraordinary
experience we all went through.
I mean, I just can't believethat I was part of the most
exciting movement that therewas.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah.
Nettie (05:57):
You know, I mean, because all these left-wing
movements are sectarian and youknow, I mean, I was never oh, I
was a member of the YoungCommunist League, uh uh, but
only for a year.
God, what a dreadfulorganisation it was.
James (06:08):
That would have hierarchy, I imagine.
Nettie (06:09):
Um, yeah, if you talk to John Lloyd, though, he had a
great time there.
He came out at 14 when he wasin the get in the Young
Communist League.
I found it just a poor.
It was all these men going,Well, when the revolution comes,
you know, and then these womenpottoing around in lots of eye
makeup with the tea.
I mean, honestly, it was aboutas bad as it could get.
Jonathan (06:31):
Oh man, wow.
And there was anotherorganization around at that
time, the campaign forhomosexual equality, the CHE.
What were the differencesbetween the CHE and maybe the
Albany Trust, their activist armand the GLF?
Nettie (06:45):
Oh, well, I mean, um, the Albany Trust is something
different again, but yes, I meanCHE was a sort of respectable
group.
It did very good things withwith um having group meetings
and people getting to know eachother and building up
confidence, and then it did lotsof sort of lobbying for law
reform, whereas with GLF weweren't really that interested
(07:08):
in law reform, didn't oppose it,but it wasn't really what we
were doing.
We wanted um sexual liberationfor everybody.
James (07:16):
Did you see GLF and CHE as kind of fitting together as
part of a wider jigsaw orcompletely as as as it's a bit
different, really.
Nettie (07:25):
I mean, I just I mean I would haven't hadn't I mean I ha
I did actually join CHE later,but that's much later.
But I mean no, I mean I was Iwanted to be part of a
liberation movement, not not a alaw form or something because
you know, law form so you canlose your you know, lose all
these privileges you get and onwhat's just happened to the
(07:46):
trans people.
James (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's uh yeah, I think part ofthe I guess for us motivation of
doing this podcast is toshowcase what has changed, but
also showcase how quickly it canchange back if we don't keep
fighting.
Nettie (08:03):
And I think that's yeah, and I I think I think that's
just so true, which is why Imean GLF wanted to join together
with other liberation groups.
And so we did things like wewent on, I mean, they had
internment in Northern Irelandin 1971, which is people hadn't
been convicted of anything butwere considered to be a danger
(08:24):
and were sent to prison.
Um, and so you know, I Iremember being on the
anti-interment um demonstrationwith um with um Andrew Rumsden
and Stuart Fever.
And what was so interesting isthat when we were on those
demonstrations, the policecouldn't pick us off the way
they did with other people.
(08:44):
Because if they tried to arrestsomebody, we just surrounded
them.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, and I I mean we were justbecause we were really
together, you see, whereas theinternational Marxist groups or
whatever, they were just randompeople who were, you know.
But we have this incrediblebond with every other gay
person, as we call them then,um, who who was with us.
(09:06):
I remember at the Festival ofLight at the big meeting that
they had, and um and some someGLF person kissed a policeman,
and the policeman sort of wentto arrest him, and then sort of
he was absolutely surrounded byus all looking at him like that.
And then he just went, Don't doit again.
(09:26):
He disappeared.
You know, because it was justlike that.
I mean, I don't mean they neverarrested us because they did so
on occasion, as we know therewere a number of uh famous court
cases.
Jonathan (09:37):
But so we've heard about the Festival of Light a
few times.
Oh, it was wonderful.
Nettie (09:41):
I can't believe I was there.
Jonathan (09:43):
Quite specific rules.
What was your opinion?
Nettie (09:45):
Well no, I didn't actually have a roll out of
ticket, but I really rememberBetty Bourne, and I remember the
the youth group throwing abanner and going cliff for
queen.
And I don't believe in outingpeople, but I just think very
occasionally you might make anexception.
Jonathan (10:01):
Were you there for the mice?
Nettie (10:02):
I was there for the mice, and then the nuns were the
best.
And and Betty Bourne going, Ifeel see evil here.
You know, I can feel evil, youremember?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah.
Nettie (10:14):
Um, and and Michael James changing clothes and
going, I've saved, I've saved.
I I I mean, it it just you youcouldn't make it up and it
couldn't happen now.
Because um, you know, it wekept it secret.
They didn't know.
James (10:33):
Because almost each I uh we we understand each group
didn't know what other groupswere going to do.
All they knew is the groupahead of them.
Nettie (10:41):
I mean he just organized the whole thing.
He was a genius, absolutegenius.
I mean, he was a verysuccessful architect, had two
jaguars and um and a house bythe river in Richmond.
Oh wow.
And then he said no.
So he stopped and he went andand squatted in in Colville
houses and was a poet and apainter.
Jonathan (11:04):
Wow.
Nettie (11:04):
And just didn't want it anymore.
Jonathan (11:07):
And was it important to you that the GLF focused on
other uh projects that weren'texclusively LGBT?
Nettie (11:14):
Well, yes, I suppose it were because I'm a came from a
sort of left-wing background,and uh I think other issues are
all part of an oppressivesociety.
Jonathan (11:25):
Did that ever cause conflict within the
organization?
Was there was there a factorthat felt no no we should only
be focusing on LGBT issues?
Nettie (11:32):
Um probably there were.
I can't remember thatparticularly, but I mean
obviously unless you wereinterested in the wider issues,
you wouldn't join those groups.
I mean sort of internationalgroup and what various other
ones.
We also had uh had a transgroup, transsexual,
transvestite, and um what wasthe third bit and uh um
something cross-dressers?
(11:54):
No, no, no, no.
Um you you'll find it in the inthe record.
Yes, and I I mean I I went to ameeting of of that and um I
found that really interesting.
I never had any problem withthe idea of transsexualism.
I just thought it's part ofsexual liberation, it's part of
who we are, and um and I'm andso I mean some pe some people
(12:16):
were a bit worried about havinghaving transsexuals involved,
but not generally.
Jonathan (12:21):
You mentioned this the committees earlier, and I
believe that you were a part ofthe counterpsychiatry committee.
Nettie (12:28):
We didn't had no committees, they were groups, so
it's not the same thing, yousee.
I mean, anyone could go.
So you didn't have to beelected or anything.
Right.
Yes, I uh every um other Sundaywe met at 24 Ivor Street, which
is where um Mickey Burbage andJeffrey Weeks lived.
Jonathan (12:45):
And tell us a bit more about the Counter Psychiatry
Group and what its what itspurpose was and why you felt
that that needed to be there.
Nettie (12:52):
Well, I think it was it was partly because of um because
of um being gay, being um I'mnot going to do LGDT, but
because it well in those days itwas gay.
Gay meant everybody, includingtransvestites, interestingly
enough, because not necessarilyeven sort of homosexual.
James (13:09):
Was that a media catch-all expression or was and
something that you had to try toliberate that expression?
Nettie (13:14):
We we we did that, yeah.
James (13:15):
In a sense, being not liberated subsequently as well.
Nettie (13:19):
Um but then I mean, obviously the word problems with
it because it wasn't includedit was then started to be
thought of as just as gay men,and then the all the problems
that we'd now got the ridiculousalphabet soup.
James (13:31):
It's quite a lot of alphabet.
A lot of alphabet.
Nettie (13:34):
Yeah, it's a lot of alphabet.
Yes, because of um uhhomosexuality being considered
to be um an illness, um, orcrime and an illness, but
particularly an illness thatneeded to be cured um with
therapy and with aversiontherapy and things like that.
So we we did um a lot of workon that, uh including organising
(13:57):
a conference which was aimed umpartly at professionals that we
held at um at the LSE inDecember um 1971.
James (14:07):
Say more about that.
I mean, I'm really interested.
Nettie (14:09):
So that was Yeah, some people did actually come, and
Charlotte Wolfe came and a fewother people who actually were
in the profession.
I'm interested.
But all the speakers were GLF,including Paul Bunting and Mary
McIntosh, um and um there's butthere's a you'll find a list
somewhere of of who who whospoke.
It was really impressive.
(14:30):
I brought my mother.
Jonathan (14:31):
Oh wow, oh wow.
Nettie (14:32):
Yeah, that was a and and my friend Jim Scott from GLF
said, Your mother.
Oh, I thought that was someterrible old dyke from the from
the what's the name of thewomen's club?
The only big lesbian club thatwas started in the 1930s and not
long ago, and there would havebeen a um a TV documentary about
(14:55):
it recently.
Jonathan (14:56):
Yes, and has gone out of my head as well.
I'm so sorry.
Uh but we'll find that outeverybody and we'll we'll we'll
we'll say it at the end.
Nettie (15:03):
Um I told you my parents were quite interested in these
things.
James (15:07):
Yeah, sounds like they were uh you had extraordinary
parents as as well as well.
And and so so in this in thisconference that you organise,
you had professional did didwere professional what?
Nettie (15:18):
Professional people coming through it.
James (15:20):
Yes, to learn, to learn that product.
And were they open-minded?
Were they were they there tokind of think I think they gave
them something to think about,yeah.
And and almost rethink some oftheir professional practices,
what they taught at universityand other.
Nettie (15:33):
Yes, I suppose they were obviously more liberal people,
or they wouldn't they wouldn'thave been there, but it was just
beginning to think so perhapsit isn't an illness, perhaps it
isn't something that needs to becured.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah.
Nettie (15:44):
Um that's part part, I mean again, that's the whole
thing with GLF, you know.
There's nothing wrong with us.
Yeah.
We love.
Yeah, we want revolution.
James (15:53):
Yeah, we're not ill.
Nettie (15:54):
We don't want we, you know, there's nothing wrong.
James (15:56):
Yeah.
unknown (15:56):
Yeah.
Nettie (15:56):
It's just who we are.
James (15:57):
It's not chosen either.
Jonathan (15:59):
This is this is this is the way we are.
Nettie (16:01):
Yeah.
Jonathan (16:02):
Did you f did the organization feel very
independent to the USorganization or did you tend to
follow their lead?
Nettie (16:08):
No, no.
I think we were completelyindependent, really.
Jonathan (16:11):
Could you tell us about icebreakers?
Nettie (16:13):
And icebreakers came out of the um counter-psychiatry
group.
Because we were sitting there.
James (16:19):
Which was the group that organised the conference.
Nettie (16:21):
Which is the group that organised the conference and
various other things.
Um and did the um psychiatryand the homosexual uh brief
analysis of oppression.
Um, which is the which is thepamphlet that we brought out,
which, amongst other things, bythe way, introduced the world to
um uh to um Alan.
(16:41):
I'm sorry about the brain fog.
It just does all these things Iknow perfectly well, and
suddenly I can't remember thembecause of the long COVID.
Yeah, um that was the firsttime anyone had ever heard of
him.
Okay.
Wow.
Andrew Hawthorne's wrote wrotethat, and he's subsequently
wrote books and films about it,and and and we all know what
(17:04):
what happened.
James (17:05):
Yeah, of course.
Nettie (17:06):
But I mean I was horrified to hear about that.
James (17:08):
Yeah.
Nettie (17:08):
It really was.
I didn't know I didn't knowthere was a codebreaker called
that, or that he was gay, orthat he'd been persecuted in the
way he was.
Um icebreakers.
So um one day we were just wewere just thinking, you know,
what are we what can we do aboutthe fact that most gay people
just don't have the confidenceto to join GLF.
(17:29):
We couldn't join it exactlybecause it had no members but
become part of the movement.
Um, and we thought, well, maybeif we could set up a sort of
telephone helpline um and itwould help introduce people to
to GLF.
And so um a core group of usfrom counterpsychiatry got
(17:51):
together and uh there and theneventually and then there was
quite a long time before wecould find some premises.
And by then it wasn't just acase of getting people into GLF
because GLF was beginning tosort of collapse.
So it was that was obviouslyobvious that we needed something
much wider than that.
Um so we were a self-selectinggroup.
(18:13):
So we did the phone every dayof the year.
Every day.
Yeah, every day, wow.
Every day for 7 30 till 10.
James (18:22):
So people could ring in those hours knew that they could
ring.
Nettie (18:26):
Yeah, and then speak yeah.
Ice it's so what is the thingon the stickers say isolated
homosexual women and men canring icebreakers any day of the
week between 7:30 and 10 andspeak to another gay person.
Right.
James (18:40):
And that was that was a big part of it was someone that
that could relate to what theywere going through that had been
through ice cream.
Exactly.
Nettie (18:47):
So you know, and that we felt happy and you know, and
content with who we were.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah.
Nettie (18:53):
Um, and so we got uh I I mean just thousands of calls.
I mean, the the phone line wasalways busy, and we had and the
variety of people were just justincredible again.
James (19:02):
Yeah.
And and what sort ofcircumstances do people call
from?
Um I'm sure you heard everystory.
So I'm sure some of them werequite harrowing as well.
Nettie (19:11):
Oh, oh yes, uh absolutely.
I mean, we had people who wereso suicidal.
I remember this man rang up andsaid he was suicidal at that
moment, and then unlike othergroups, what we did, um, because
we did we did we did reallythink it might be true, um, we
we actually just uh uh two ofthere were three of us there, so
two of us actually went um justgot into my car and we drove to
(19:32):
where he said he was going tothrow himself off the bridge.
Oh, wow and and rescued him.
Oh, he was there.
Oh yeah, he was there, and umand one of the things that we
offered um was called teaparties.
And that is every Sunday atsomebody's house or flat, um
we'd run a tea party for anyonethat had rung up who might want
(19:55):
to meet other people.
Because obviously most peopleare really isolated in those
days.
So we had um tea parties everySunday, and then every Friday
evening we had women's teaparties, which was just for the
women, because in those days,you know, it was so much hotter
for women and there were so farfar fewer lesbians around, you
know, because when they uh andum so it was a a case of giving
(20:18):
support and you know and alsoopportunities for having sex and
romance and you know, just andjust having a good time.
So you just came um for as manytimes as you wanted, you'd be
telled what when the next wherethe next tea party was.
I mean, it was extraordinarythat I mean we, you know, we we
weren't vetted in any way, andwe you know, we were completely
(20:39):
open of what we what we did.
I mean, we could we we knewthat we might easily um be
charged with something likeconspiracy to corrupt public
morals or you know, be becausewe we didn't have any lower age
limit on the what people so wehad people like me 12 and things
like that.
We might go even go and meetthem.
And um, you know, because we wemay easily have, you know,
(21:02):
people may have committedbuggery because because of
ringing us, you know, we'reunderage.
And so we really knew that itthat that we it was a
possibility.
And if it was now, we probablywould all have been arrested.
James (21:15):
Did how how did you uh cope with some of the harrowing
stories that you that you heardthat that you know you were
putting yourself in a positionof probably quite traumatic
stories being told to you?
Yeah, absolutely.
Nettie (21:29):
How did how did And I mean obviously we also meet
people one to one quite quiteoften if they were in a really
bad state?
Yeah.
Just as we'll get go and meetthem and have tea and things
like that, and then maybe latertry and get them to come to a
tea party, maybe meet us beforeand then and then come in.
Yes, I mean, you know yes, Imean, people who do um lesbians
(21:50):
who'd lost their children, youknow, because in custody things,
things like that were reallyterrible.
Jonathan (21:56):
Can you tell us a little bit more about the
experience for lesbians at thattime?
Because you know, we'vetypically you hear about the
experiences for gay men, youhear about the importuning, you
hear about the the the raids onthe um the cottages, but you you
don't hear as much about theterrible things that women went
(22:17):
through at that time, losingtheir children.
Can you share a bit about whatyou're experiencing?
Nettie (22:21):
Well I mean I didn't have bad experiences because I
wasn't in that position, and Iwasn't wasn't and at that point
I wasn't even a lesbian.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yes.
Nettie (22:29):
So yippee, I managed you later on, which is great.
But no, I didn't go through allthose terrible things.
But yes, I mean people be it umI mean there was I mean women
in general, I mean they just hadI mean we didn't, you know, at
that point, you know, we didn'tdidn't have equal pay, we didn't
have anti-discrimination, we duh um rape was legal, not well,
(22:51):
not actually criminal inmarriage, um assaulting partners
within reason again was notagainst the law.
Um it was everything.
And and I mean women wereexpected to get married, so so
lesbians generally did.
I mean, I I remember um in thewhi women's group um was saying,
(23:12):
you know, it was anyone whohadn't had sex as a man, and
there was only one person thathadn't.
You know, and these were allproper lesbians.
James (23:20):
And that was societal pressure, yeah.
Nettie (23:24):
You're meant to have a boyfriend and meant to get
married and to get married, andI mean that the pressure on men
too, but not to the same extent.
Um because women, you know, Imean, it sh you know, you've got
to have um you know, have a joband you've got to have a um
somewhere to live, and it's I Ijust think things were much,
(23:46):
much harder.
And women can were consideredto be inferior.
I mean it's real you know, Ireally remember that kind of
thing, really irritatingly.
Um I remember when I was atlike about five and um we had
this do at the at my school andthere was an ice cream van
there, and I and um they gave methe ice cream free.
(24:07):
And um I said, Oh, why do youthink they did that?
And they said, I think it'sbecause your dress your dress
was so pretty, and I justthought, oh god, there's nothing
against pretty dresses really,but oh, I'll have oh no, I mean
I can't be part of any of that.
So I sort of rejected the wholeheterosexist society, even
though um I wasn't I wasn'tactually attracted to them.
James (24:29):
Was was it because part of it was rejecting also the
kind of male-dominatedpatriarchal society.
Yeah, absolutely.
Did you find that inside thethe campaigning work as well?
Nettie (24:42):
Well, the the the yeah, well I mean it was really was
dominated by men, and there wasa there was a real problem with
that.
Um I mean, they were reallyinterested in men's issues, and
they'd say well, gay peoplecottage.
And I'm thinking, well, harhardly any women actually.
What you mean is men.
Right, you know, and anyhow,why is it that you're so so
(25:02):
obsessed with?
Um, and men tended to be verydominant at the the meetings,
the big meetings, that is.
It was let it was not that waslet much less true in the
subgroups, and certainly not inin um counterpsychiatry, which
was I mean, it was mainly men,but but there was no sort of
towards the end of the GLF,which burned brightly, but for
(25:23):
quite a short time.
James (25:24):
I think what one of the sort of senses is that a lot of
women said this isn't a placefor us, really.
Nettie (25:30):
Uh I quite understand that.
James (25:32):
And did that precipitate?
Nettie (25:34):
Yes, so so the women uh did eventually walk out.
I didn't I I didn't, but um Ithink that definitely both sides
were much poorer for itafterwards.
The the women gay women'sliberation never really came to
anything.
And the the rest of the gayliberation sort of started
fizzling out.
But then I think maybe it wassort of one of those bright
(25:57):
magical things that couldn'thave lasted.
Because it there was just somuch energy.
It was like Yeah, you know, andwe were going in all these
directions and doing all thesedifferent things that were arts
and protest and writing leafletsand demonstrating and can it
can you tell us a bit aboutwhere you think that energy came
from?
Jonathan (26:18):
What was it about 1971, that early part of the
70s?
Nettie (26:21):
Yeah, I I think it was coming out of other radical
movements like the anti-VietnamWar, um, women's liberation,
black liberation, children'sliberation, the hippies.
And there was a lot of energythere.
And and these were I mean,these weren't one what might
call the average gay people.
I mean, you know, they weretended to be the more sort of
(26:43):
artistic and uh political typeof people who who really wanted
to change things and and have alot of fun as well.
I mean, you know, the thing isGLF was enormously fun.
We really, really had such fun.
James (26:57):
I think that's that's part of what's so important
about this is that campaigningactivism is can be fun.
You can make lifelong friends,you can you can be part of
something so big and so muchbigger than yourself, but also
when you feel that you're makingprogress.
Nettie (27:11):
Yes, and we we did.
I mean, because yes, I mean youcould do something every day of
the week pretty well.
Um, you know, because m MondayI'd go to because I did, I just
absolutely threw myself intothis, and and um you and I I
believed that we should come outtotally, and therefore I wore a
gay liberation front badgeeverywhere all the time.
(27:33):
Wow.
Um you could do things just thewhole time.
I mean, on Monday there was theAction Group, which met in the
GLF office in Caledonian Road.
Um, Tuesday there's the RedLesbian Brigade, which was a
little radical lesbian bit,which did read that and and did
things like spray paintings andand went to the stock exchange
(27:54):
and and spray painted it, soldthe cock brokers.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Wow.
Nettie (27:59):
Remember, only men were allowed in Wow.
And we did it, it was suchfunny.
And then Wednesday was the bigmeetings, which might be up but
up to about 500 people.
And I mean, those are just soexciting to just be with so many
people all pushing in the samedirection.
James (28:15):
Every week up to 500 people.
Nettie (28:17):
Yeah, it could be as many as that, yeah.
That's amazing.
Um somewhere, I mean it varied,and of course nobody was
counting, which was just whichwas wonderful.
Um, and then and then Thursdaywas Camden GLF because I was
living in Highgate at the time,so that's local for me.
Um, and then that was Thursday,then Friday um was the women's
(28:38):
group.
So I was in Nottinghill Gateand I'd go to that, and then uh
Saturday that you know theremight be a demo or making
banners or doing something elseor have a sink-in, or maybe not,
maybe have a day off.
And then Sunday was uh everyother Sunday was um
counterpsychiatry.
But I mean there were so manygroups.
I mean, there were about Idon't know, 30 groups, something
(28:59):
like that.
I mean, cover night workers,the Jewish group, media
workshop, street theatre, uhendless different groups.
Jonathan (29:07):
And how did you form a group?
Nettie (29:09):
You just said I want to form a group, and you Yeah,
people just said, Oh, let's havea yeah, it's basically that.
Remember at a main meeting andsay, Well, we haven't got a
group for Jewish people.
Why don't why why don't we havea Jewish group?
And we could they can meet atmy place.
You know, I think that wasMichael Brown, I think, was the
person that suggested that.
Okay.
So they said, Well, okay, sohere's the address and um off we
(29:31):
go.
James (29:31):
Presumably it's uh sooner or later there weren't enough
days in the week for all thethings.
Nettie (29:35):
Oh no, there's no way, no, no, no, not anything
overlap.
You could do yes, no, therewere about about 20 groups, I
think, most of the time.
So um yes.
James (29:43):
No one no wonder this was a community you're still in
touch with because you spent somuch time with people.
Nettie (29:48):
Well, I also met so many people.
You know, I mean, I ri reallygot to know so many people.
It's interesting that you werestill in touch because it was
pre-internet.
I mean, if we have somethingnow, yeah, then everybody's good
exchanging all their emails andWhatsApps and Facebook pro you
know, doesn't mean this isbefore anything like that.
People didn't even not everyoneeven had telephones.
(30:10):
I mean most people did, but andlandline.
James (30:14):
Yeah, the landline.
In in the sense that it waspre-internet.
Um does it also mean it wasquite localized to London?
And so you if you wanted to getreally involved in the way that
you were, you could only reallydo that if you lived.
Nettie (30:26):
No, there were other groups like Leeds, for instance.
Okay.
James (30:29):
And they were they were sort of connected loosely or
only lo uh yeah, loosely.
Jonathan (30:34):
Right.
Nettie (30:34):
Yeah.
Jonathan (30:36):
So we heard someone say that actually the that
spreading out of the GLF, thethe fact that you started to get
local chapters around the placediluted it somewhat.
D did you feel that way?
Nettie (30:48):
No.
Jonathan (30:48):
No.
Nettie (30:49):
I don't think so.
No.
I don't I don't know.
I mean, I'm I mean the only oneI was involved with at local I
mean was the Camden GLF.
Okay.
And I don't think that had anyeffect on the main one.
One thing that we did that wasreally fun, um, was we decided
to crash the that means gowithout an invitation, if um the
(31:12):
time out party in Piccadilly.
Jonathan (31:15):
I have never heard this story.
Please tell us.
Nettie (31:18):
So we've all piled into my car to go because we didn't
care about how many people werein the car in those days, so we
had about seven or eight of usin my car.
It was quite a big car.
James (31:29):
Okay, I was gonna say, I hope it wasn't a mini.
Nettie (31:30):
No, there wasn't a mini mini, it was an Anglia state.
No, that's um, and and we wejust went to the theatre the the
the where I was doing, and themo most um Ford of us just said
GLS Street Theatre.
And then we just walked in.
James (31:49):
Charged right through the doors.
Yeah.
Wow.
Nettie (31:52):
And Bobby, who was um a trans um part of GLS, really was
really performing there.
Not quite sure what pronounBobby actually used, maybe it's
they.
Anyhow, but um so um and Bobbydid a strip tease.
Oh wow, and you know, and sortof beautiful breasts and
everything.
And then at the very lastmoment he opened his legs and
(32:15):
his penis and balls cut out, andyou just should have seen them.
Oh wow.
I mean, all these trendy, timeout, sort of sophisticated
London people that they they'dnever seen anything like that
before.
Wow.
James (32:28):
And that but that was a proper, that was a part of the
actual that that was actuallypart, yes.
Nettie (32:31):
But it doesn't we were nothing to do with the streets.
We just went in as well.
Jonathan (32:37):
Wonderful.
And I believe the GLF wasinvolved in the protest of the
Miss World Pageant of the AlbertHall.
Nettie (32:44):
Yes.
Uh that um I um I went to thethe one in 1971, obviously not
the one in 1970 because I was Iwasn't there.
And we had um people dressed upas Miss uh in drag, sort of
misused and misunderstood.
Jonathan (33:02):
Misused is a very good drag.
Nettie (33:03):
Yeah, right.
There's a bit there's somegreat photographs of uh uh of
that.
And then we also we were alllinking arms um sort of round
the round the Albert Hall.
And this police officer cameand start and started to um
pretty put his hands throughthis.
Wasn't actually someone fromGLF.
The man that I was linked armswith.
(33:24):
And he swept like that.
And I went I can see whatyou're doing, PC 651, or
whatever it was, and so hesuddenly just let go.
But I thought, what was hethinking of?
Wow.
unknown (33:35):
Wow.
Nettie (33:36):
But I mean it was a really, a really joyous
occasion.
We we and we went to the Oztrial and things like that.
Jonathan (33:43):
But was the Oz Trial?
Nettie (33:44):
The Oz Trial was um Oz was what's called an underground
magazine that um was run bythree editors.
Um, Jim Anderson, who was inGLF, and Dennis, who later was
later the founder of The Weekand various others, and a very
successful business person, andRichard Neville, um, who was a
(34:06):
sort of underground activistfrom um Australia.
And so they'd have have thisunderground magazine with all
sorts of subversive articles,and one day they thought, I
know, let's have a school kid'sOz.
So they had um an issue of Ozwritten entirely um Felix
(34:28):
Dennis, that's all, um entirelyby by people who were still at
school, and including all sortsof highly political and highly
obscene articles, and um and VivBerger wrote uh um one called
um Gypsy G Rupert Bear and GypsyGranny, where Rupert Bear was
(34:52):
fucking Gypsy Granny.
I mean it was quite a wholecool stuff.
Wow Yeah, I mean it was onlycartoons, it was a joke, you
know.
And um so they so the statedecided to prosecute for
conspiracy to corrupt publicmalls.
Wow.
So they were all all taken tocourt, um and they were and um
(35:18):
they were endeavored and theycut their hair because obviously
they had all had very long hairand they cut into prison
haircuts and um anyhow, and Imean eventually they were
exonerated and everything wasoverturned, but um and but GLF
took a took a big part in in thedemonstrations outside outside
(35:39):
the O'Bailey.
Jonathan (35:40):
Gosh, wow.
And tell us a little bit, ifyou can, about the ending of the
GLF.
Nettie (35:46):
Can't tell you very much, um, really, because in um
because I I joined in the uhjoined, became active in the
April, um and then um by theFebruary afterwards, um I had um
I'd met another woman.
And um GLF was fading thenanyway, and we became very
(36:11):
active in um claimants union inin Tottenham and squatting and
that kind of thing, so they sayvery much openly with our GLF
badges the whole time.
Um but I didn't really go verymuch because uh I mean it was
fading, it was it was just andit was it just wasn't wasn't
exciting the way it was.
And it was sad.
James (36:33):
A big change in life to go from every single day of the
week to be doing something withGLF.
Nettie (36:38):
Well, except I was doing other things.
James (36:39):
Right, right.
Similar, but with a similarobjective.
So that activism.
Nettie (36:43):
Yeah, but I was continuing to to be and be an
activist.
I just wasn't I mean, I was no,of course, I know that that uh
at that point I wasn't doingicebreakers, but I no, but but
yeah because that didn't startimmediately as I have territory,
it didn't start till 1973.
Yeah, by which time the GLFvirtually didn't exist.
James (37:01):
Oh, really?
So it was clear it was comingto an end.
It was it was pretty much anend.
Nettie (37:05):
It was just running down.
I mean, you can't have thatlevel of um of ideas and new
initiatives and energypermanently.
That's why something like CHEcould continue and continue and
continue and continue, becauseit was all committees and you
know, socials and um, you know,and and lot lots of good stuff,
(37:27):
but but completely different.
I mean there were there wasn'treally uh practically nobody who
was in GF was also in CHE,isn't that interesting?
I mean, I'm and and I wasn't tobegin with, though I was later,
and indeed I I I was on theexecutive committee of CHE from
2010 or 11.
Jonathan (37:45):
And tell us a bit about that.
How was the transition for youto go to, I guess, an
establishment organization fromthese revolutionary
counterculture organizations?
Nettie (37:56):
Well, no, I mean I'd also I mean I'd I'd uh also
worked for the National Councilfor Civil Liberties.
Jonathan (38:02):
Okay.
Nettie (38:02):
So I was do it doing um gay rights work there amongst um
other things.
And so I was working with theestablishment there.
So I mean, yes, I was wor I wassort of used to doing that.
Yeah, I I mean I see it youthvery very pleasant organisation
with very friendly, nice people,but but not not any kind of
revolutionary aims.
Jonathan (38:22):
And if you look back at your very long career of
activism, are there some pointsthat you think, oh, I'm super
proud of that?
Nettie (38:30):
Um yeah, I think well well, a number of things really.
I think going to the Festivalof Light, I was just so proud to
be there.
I really, really was.
And uh and indeed to be on thefirst Gay Pride March, because
it was called a Gay Pride Marchthen.
And oh no, actually, no, I wasI thought I think it was
actually the march before I wasmore proud to be on, which was
(38:51):
there was there was the actualum Gay Pride March, which was in
July um 1972.
But um in 1971, the youth groupum organised a march against
the age of consent.
Really?
Yes.
And so the the youth groupreally was a youth group.
(39:13):
If you were if you were overover 21, you could go to one
meeting.
So I was 21 and I went to onemeeting in Tough La Park.
I mean, that was just such arevelation.
I mean, everyone there wasunder 21, something like 14.
Um, they were so confident andso full of ideas, and and they
(39:35):
got it together to organise thefirst ever sort of march.
I mean, can you be they alsoorganized the um gay pride march
as well, though that's not wellknown.
People think it was AndrewLumsden that um that organized,
and he didn't.
He went on it.
He was involved in it.
So so the youth group the youthgroup did it but did both
marches.
(39:55):
Yes, I mean they they they Andit was quite successful and
quite big.
Jonathan (40:02):
And that first march against the age of consent, what
was that like?
Nettie (40:06):
Yes, tell us about it.
Well, I mean, there were a lotquite a lot of people there, not
that many, you know, a coupleof hundred, say, something like
that.
And um and very radical and umand PK uh um getting up on stage
saying, did you wait till youwere 21?
And yeah, and then they andthey had people kissing on the
stage.
(40:26):
And we also we went to um afterthe um the march, we went to
Hyde Park.
And um do you know I'm I'mmixing it up a bit with with
with something with the withwith the Pride March, anyhow,
whichever it was, and it doesn'tmatter, because this bit is
absolutely true.
All went to Hyde Park, and ummost of the men just took all
(40:49):
their clothes off, including thesaid Andrew Longston, who was
who Nature had to go in for toto work at the time.
So he had a business suit on,he took everything off, and so
did all the others.
Oh wow.
Um and then they're all dancedancing round and kissing and
they're and uh and the policejust didn't know what to they
(41:10):
they just what do you do with aload of people?
James (41:14):
If it was one person they could start arresting them
strength in numbers, that wasthe whole the whole nature and
the basic.
Yeah, that was that was thepride one.
Yeah, but yeah.
Nettie (41:22):
That was where where that one happened, yeah.
Um and yeah, and we wereplaying Ames and playing this, I
think we know spin the bottlething, and then and then you
have to go and kiss the personthat's there.
But remember, even um even sortof passionate kissing could be
described as some sort of umgross indecency.
People had actually beenprosecuted for kissing.
(41:43):
And we just challenged all thatcompletely.
Um being in the women's group,I'm just taking um we had uh it
started off um we met at MaryMcIntosh's house, um 37 Amundal
Square in Islington.
(42:03):
Um and um so that so we met ona a Friday night and um and
talked and pla planned actionsand things like that, and people
people would be drinking beerand um and I I felt, oh gosh, I
shouldn't be here, I reallyshouldn't be here because I'm
not a lesbian.
But luckily nobody ever askedme, believe it or not.
(42:23):
I never had to lie.
And um that was obviously verycommitted, and and and that and
so we had we had some reallygood, good um, we did some zaps
and we did all sorts of really,really good things, and we went
on women's liberation marchesand uh as a sort of contingent
(42:45):
and the um abortion marches aswell, and we brought a lot of
the men with us to that, we I'mpleased to say.
When you say you did zaps, whatwhat what th things like like
um going to Harley Street and umand and and um whitewashing the
(43:07):
uh um the road with with withslogans about about aversion so
it's the kind of thing that tothe that that GLF did.
Um and then we moved to to toNottinghill Gate to Faraday
Road, where it was uh um awomen's squat.
Jonathan (43:25):
Okay.
Nettie (43:25):
And but though Richard Dipple was uh was there, Richard
Dipple was one of the peoplewho helped form the um gay men's
press later.
Jonathan (43:34):
Oh right, okay.
Nettie (43:35):
And um so he was he was what one man and there were
seven or eight women.
And then we we'd meet we'd meetthere on uh Friday.
It was a completely differentatmosphere then because uh that
was all dope smoking.
That wasn't that wasn't thebeer.
So we moved from being sort ofworking class type atmosphere to
this sort of rather hippie.
Jonathan (43:53):
Right.
And so I so I asked you withthe Proudwitz, is there anything
that you look back on and youthink, oh, I wish we hadn't done
that?
Nettie (44:00):
Probably.
Um I think uh I think somepeople who are sort of like and
uh uh saying heterosexuality wasrubbish and things like that, I
think that was a a pity.
Um but there wasn't very muchof that really, to be to be
honest.
Jonathan (44:18):
And looking at the world today and looking at young
people, and and one of thethings we're hoping that young
people will listen to this, um,which is why we've done it in
this format.
Do you have a message from alifetime of activism?
Nettie (44:32):
Yes, I mean I would say don't trust the establishment.
James (44:36):
Organise and when you look at the world today, what
parallels do you see from yourhistory of activism and your
experiences going right?
Nettie (44:52):
Um, I mean we didn't invent that, but I think but it
will with that it was it wasessential to the way we work,
the fact that within egalitarianthing where where everybody's
view could be taken into view itand and anyone could, you know,
for instance, if we were going,we have these things called
think-ins, which is we would umand let's say it's things like I
(45:13):
think we should uh you know,somebody would get up and say,
Oh, I think we should talk talkabout the position of women in
the organization.
Why don't we have a think-in onit?
And so then we'd we'd hiresomewhere and go and go there on
a Saturday, and then everybodysit around and talk about women.
I mean, I remember I rememberthat, that one particularly, and
I mean that just came fromsomebody who just said it would
(45:33):
be a good idea, and then thenext thing you know, we've got
sort of like 60 people who'veturned up and want to talk about
it.
James (45:39):
Wow.
And I guess it's there's thissense that for a lot of people
kind of growing up now, well,we've we've we've won equality,
we've got the legal change, whatmore is there to fight for?
And and I think you woulddisagree with that idea
strongly.
Nettie (45:54):
As I said in my uh a few years ago my interview in in uh
um Gay Times, think Trump,think Bolson Bolsonaro from
Brazil.
You know, I mean they're goingto take things back.
I mean, you know, I thinkthey're going to I think it's
highly likely that they're gonnathey're gonna I guess they're
gonna try aversions aversiontherapy, conversion therapy for
(46:14):
trans people, I noticed fromyesterday's news.
Because you know they're notnot recognizing trans people,
and then I just think it's all ait's all an illness and it, you
know, and trans health care isa salt and and um and um many
people think they're going tostop same-sex marriage as well.
(46:36):
Though I think it is I meanit's it varies from state to
state, doesn't it?
But in America, yeah.
There is a I think there'sgoing to be quite a an anti-gay
thing happening in America andthat you you you know it can
easily come here.
It really can.
Because I don't thinkeveryone's as comfortable with
it as as we think they are.
James (46:56):
We haven't fully won the hearts and minds.
Nettie (46:58):
I don't think so, no.
And I think that the late thelatest trans issue decision, um,
you know, which is so popular,is really worrying.
Yeah.
You know, it's as though, youknow, women don't uh have this
terrible danger from transwomen.
No, it's from men.
And it's the state.
James (47:18):
Yeah.
Your stories of your activism,the work that you've done, the
work on icebreakers andobviously GLF has been just
absolutely extraordinary.
And it's been amazing to hearyour story today.
Nettie (47:31):
I mean, it's just it's just it was I can't believe I
have had such an exciting life.
You know, because I did, I sortof thought, you know, I'm just
going to be an unsuccessfulheterosexual, won't really meet
anybody, and uh God I knowprobably would work in a lot be
aged 40, and I'd be working in alibrary, and my parents will
have died, and oh dear, and thensuddenly, the stars, you know.
(47:53):
I mean, just the amount ofexcitement I've had in in my
life and being part of this sortof incredible, incredible
movement, and having all thesefriends and lovers, and it's
just been wonderful.
James (48:06):
Not just exciting, but it's been impactful.
You've you've you've made ahuge difference to so many
people's lives, including theperson that you that that you
you met on the bridge, but butso many other people's lives in
terms of the changes that you'vemade into culture, hearts and
minds, legal frameworks, and andsociety more generally.
So so thank you for all of yourdecades of activism, and and
(48:28):
and I've I've found this soinspiring.
We found this inspiring andhope other people do too.
Jonathan (48:38):
Thank you for listening to The View From Here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (48:49):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
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