February 3, 2026 • 57 mins
As LGBTQ+ history month begins, we are thrilled to share the final episodes of our first season.
We sit down with Peter for the first of two episodes. Starting in 1960s Melbourne and the impossible choice between prison and the Vietnam war, which ultimately saw him move to London. On his second day in the UK he discovered the Gay Liberation Front, a movement that aimed to achieve cultural change, challenging the church, media, police and education.
Peter walks us through the first London Pride in 1972 and the challenges faced by the GLF as its flame dimmed. Peter reflects on the personal costs of taking action, including arrests, assaults, PTSD and the fuel that keeps him going: love of people, freedom, equality and justice.
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This episode was hosted by Jonathan Chambers and James Alexander
Editing by Hannah Stewart
Music: Mystify created by AlterEgo
Visit our website, https://tvfh.co.uk
Follow us on Instagram, https://www.instagram.com/theviewfromherepodcast
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
Peter (00:11):
A group of us in the Gay Liberation Fund getting the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Intro (00:20):
Equality, and for some people in Stonewall like me,
equality was kind of like whatyou got to as a starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
Today we're joined for thefirst of two episodes with Peter
Tatchell, a lifelong humanrights campaigner known for his
fearless direct action andglobal LGBTQ Plus advocacy.
James (00:51):
In part one, we hear about his childhood, early
activism, and some of the firstpride campaigns in London.
With such a unique history andvoice, we let Peter introduce
himself.
Peter (01:05):
Peter, welcome.
Glad to join you.
So my name is Peter Tatchell.
I've been campaigning for LGBTplus and other human rights
since 1967, when I was age 15and still at school.
In that time, I've beeninvolved in more than 3,000
(01:26):
direct action protests, many ofthem involving acts of
non-violent civil disobedience,in order to fight for a better
world.
Also in that time, I've beenarrested or detained by the
police more than a hundredtimes, been subjected to over
300 violent assaults, mostlyfrom homophobes and far right
(01:49):
extremists, plus more than 50attacks upon my home, including
three arson attacks and even abullet through my front door.
But I'm still here, and I'mstill fighting and still
determined to help do my bit fora better future.
James (02:06):
Wow.
And and you know, your yourlife story is extraordinary.
Jonathan and I were both sograteful for the fight that
you've put in that has changedthe world and made the world a
much better place for LGBT pluspeople than it than it was
before.
And I suppose maybe let's goback to the world before your
your work and your activism.
You were born in Melbourne.
(02:27):
Um and am I right in saying youwere an activist from a from a
very young age, even before youyou came out?
Peter (02:34):
Absolutely.
Um I grew up in the 1960s inMelbourne, Australia.
At the time we'd had twodecades of unbroken right-wing
conservative rule.
And on top of that, Australiawas fighting alongside the
Americans in Vietnam, and therewas the draft for that war.
And initially I thought the warwas, you know, a just war, you
(02:57):
know, to stop communism.
But when I delved into it anddiscovered the horrendous things
that Allied troops were doingin Vietnam, you know, the mass
indiscriminate bombing ofcivilian areas, the massacre of
villages, uh the notoriousKonson tiger cages, where people
were any dissident was torturedoften to death.
(03:20):
Um I became an implacableopponent of uh the Vietnam War
and the draft for that war.
James (03:28):
And you know, that I guess that I've heard you were
also activist uh against thedeath penalty, um supportive of
ad Aboriginal rights as well.
I mean it feels like activismis just in your DNA.
And did is that how it feltgrowing up that you saw
injustice all around you and youwanted to play a part in
addressing that?
Peter (03:47):
Yeah, I mean I grew up in a very traditional, small city
conservative working classfamily.
Um my father was a did eng wasan engineer and worked in an
engineering factory.
Um my family had no interest inthe wider outside world, their
focus was on the church and thefamily.
(04:08):
They're extremely strictfundamentalist Christians, you
know, Pentecostal evangelicals.
Um so I never got any of myactivist ideas from them.
I just morphed towards that.
Probably the biggest influencewas the Black Civil Rights
(04:28):
Movement in America.
Although it was thousands ofmiles away, it was on the
nightly news.
Um virtually every day, everynight, some terrible thing, a
lynching of black people, arrestof black people trying to eat
at a lunch counter, which wasreserved for whites only.
Um but the the thing thatreally struck me, and it's it's
(04:51):
my first, I suppose, perhaps thememory that made me an activist
or gravitated me towardsactivism, was in 1963, when I
was eleven years old, I heardabout the bombing by white
racists of a black church inBirmingham, Alabama, where four
young girls about my own agewere murdered.
(05:13):
I thought to myself, how couldanyone kill another human being,
let alone four young girls inchurch on Sunday?
And you know, until that momentI hadn't really I just noted
the news about the black civilrights struggle, but I hadn't
(05:33):
really taken a close interest,but that got me interested.
I saw this as a just fight.
You know, I was white,thousands of miles away, but I
understood instantly that was aninjustice that had to be fought
against.
And I suppose it opened my mindto other injustices.
So it it led me to questionAustralia's involvement in the
(05:56):
Vietnam War, uh the way in whichour own indigenous black
Australians, the Aboriginalpeoples, were being treated, um
and the death penalty as well.
James (06:06):
Yeah, in injustice, as uh as you say, is all around.
And how you know you said yougrew up in a small sea
conservative PentecostalChristian household.
How did your family react toyour to your activism and uh and
I suppose in 1969 when you whenyou came out?
Peter (06:23):
Well, they strongly disapproved.
Um, their view was that um therole of good Christian is to be
godly and pious and obey the TenCommandments and to shun the
world, you know, not to beinvolved in the world, to shun
it, because the world was not ofthat that that wasn't God's
intention.
God's intention was piety,prayer, salvation.
(06:46):
And uh in terms of my ownhomosexuality, uh for my
parents, being gay was like theequivalent of being a murderer
or a rapist, you know, one ofthe worst possible sins.
So it was very, very tough.
But for me, what was surprisingis that when I first had sex
(07:09):
with a man uh when I was 17, Iimmediately thought, Wow, if
this is what being gay is, I amdefinitely gay.
I am here for it.
And you know, what the Biblesays, it's it's nonsense.
I mean, you know, theprescriptions against various
(07:29):
sins are supposed to protectpeople from harm, quite clearly
to consenting adults and notharming anyone.
Um so that sort of was anotherfactor that impelled me to
eventually distance myself fromthe church and eventually leave
it.
James (07:46):
Quite quite a familiar story, I imagine, to quite a lot
of people that have beenbrought up in a very uh sort of
strong, strict religiousbackground.
Peter (07:53):
But I didn't feel a moment's guilt.
This is the thing.
I I I was curious that I mightbe gay around the age soon after
I was 17, and so I thought,well, the best way to to test it
out is to try it.
And that's what I did.
But I did not have a moment'sguilt.
I just thought very rationallyand coolly, you know, we're not
(08:17):
harming anybody.
Um, this has given meincredible physical sexual
pleasure, but also an emotionalbond with someone.
Yeah.
Um how can that be wrong?
James (08:29):
And this but this approach to being so headstrong
about creating your your ownview of what is rational,
logical, right that that feelsto me something that's very
specific to you, that you areyou are a very headstrong person
very clearly and and veryforward-thinking.
Presumably the true prevailingnarrative in the media and other
things at that time wasdefinitely not what you were
(08:51):
what you were thinking.
Peter (08:52):
Well, absolutely.
I mean, at the time, uh in thestate of Victoria, in Australia,
um, male homosexuality wasstill a serious criminal
offense.
You could be jailed for severalyears, and you know, obviously
we would be beaten up in prisonas well.
Yeah.
Um on top of that, you could incertain certain circumstances
(09:13):
be compelled to undicate uhundertake um aversion therapy.
Wow.
But this was not likeconversion therapy today, which
is all words, it was likeelectric shocks, you know,
strapped in a chair and beinggiven electric shocks to turn
you straight.
Wow.
Jonathan (09:32):
You know, you came out in Melbourne.
Um was there a an LGBT movementthere that you could identify,
that you could take comfortfrom, activism from, a sense of
queer liberation from?
Peter (09:49):
There were no LGBT plus organizations at all in
Melbourne at the time.
No campaign groups, nohelplines, no switchboards, no
counseling services, absolutelynothing.
And so where did your ideas ofqueer liberation come from?
I borrowed them from the BlackCivil Rights Movement.
Right.
Because that was the I saw atemplate there of how you how
(10:12):
you do campaigning for socialchange.
So I didn't have any referencepoint, you know, uh at all.
Um so I I I I figured out in myown teenage mind if black
people are an oppressed minoritywho deserve equal civil rights,
then the same surely applies toLGBTs.
(10:35):
Um so I conceived us as anoppressed victimized minority uh
who had rights and a duties tofight for those rights.
And I can remember, yeah, at 17calculated to myself, based on
the experience of the blackcivil rights movement, that it
(10:57):
would probably take about fiftyyears to win legal equality for
LGBTs in Western countries likeAustralia, United States, and
Britain.
Now that was just aguesstimate, but it's more or
less turned out to be a goodidea.
Um but I was in for the longhaul.
I I said I want to be I want tobe part I've been championing
(11:19):
black Australians, the people ofVietnam, um, and so on and so
on.
Now it's time to put some of mytime and effort into fighting
for me and my people.
Jonathan (11:29):
And we'll come on to um the Gay Liberation Front,
which you were a a part of, andit's links to the Black Civil
Rights Movement.
But before we get there, whatinformed your move to London?
Peter (11:42):
Um well though I'd always had a l uh a desire to travel.
You know, Australia's a bit faraway.
Um so I always had I was alwaysinquisitive, interested in
other cultures and ideas anddifferent places.
So I had that intention anddesire always to travel.
(12:04):
But the main impetus was that Iwas approaching my 20th
birthday when I would have toregister for the draft for
Vietnam.
Right.
And I thought I, you know, I'mnot going to fight in that war.
That war is profoundly immoral.
You know, around this timethere'd been the Miley massacre
(12:26):
where an American company ofsoldiers had massacred hundreds
of Vietnamese women andchildren.
Um and that was just one ofmany, that that's well known.
There were hundreds more thatare barely known or have been
hidden from history.
So I was not going to be partof that.
Um so I was faced with theprospect either I stay and fight
(12:49):
and go to prison for two years,which was the penalty for
refusing to register, or I gooverseas for a while.
And of course I'd only juststarted this new relationship.
Um where we were deeply in loveand the idea of being
separated, you know, where we'rebroken by heart and his.
So um we came to London in uhAugust 1971.
James (13:13):
Were quite a lot of people coming at that time?
I imagine that that a lot ofpeople would have thought to do
the same thing.
Peter (13:20):
Yeah, it's hard to know how many.
Yeah, quite a lot of peoplewent to other other countries.
James (13:26):
Yeah.
And and did did you have asense in from an activist
perspective, you know, you youhad in your mind already that
there's a 50-year fight herethat to be had.
Did you have a sense of this isfine, I'm gonna just take the
same fight to the UK?
Or did you feel at any point asort of sense of were it not for
(13:47):
the for the risk of beingdrafted to Vietnam that you
actually wanted to stay into inAustralia and and do that fight
there?
Peter (13:55):
Yeah, I mean ideally I would have liked to have stayed.
Um there was um an LGBT groupin Sydney called Camp.
Um that was quite small and youknow th there was nothing like
what we now call a communityanywhere in Australia.
So um when I came to Britain,the intention was to stay for
(14:20):
maybe two or three years whenthere was expected to be a
general election and the Labouropposition was due to win, and
they were committed to endingthe draft and um pulling out of
Vietnam.
So the tension was yeah, atemporary stay.
Yeah.
But you know, one thing led toanother.
And and here you here you arein the UK.
James (14:44):
Excellent.
And the UK is very grateful forthat.
Jonathan (14:48):
And how did you first explore activism here in the UK?
Peter (14:56):
On the second day I was in London, I was taking a walk
around the tourist sites, andsaw a sticker on a lamppost
advertising the meetings of thenot long formed Gay Liberation
Front.
So five days later, I was at myfirst meeting, and within a
month I was helping organize umGLF's many spectacular protests.
Jonathan (15:18):
And I for ever for everyone who's listening, really
there was also anotherorganization that was active at
that time, the campaign forhomosexual equality.
It had started in the late1950s as the Northwest
Homosexual Law Reform Societyand then morphed into the CHE.
Do you feel that there wouldhave been a home for you at the
(15:38):
CHE?
Because they're very differentorganizations, the CHE to the
GLF.
Peter (15:43):
Yeah, I I've got total respect for the campaign for
homosexual equality and all thepredecessor activists and
organizations.
But they were very much sortof, you know, within the
establishment framework, andmost people in CHG were still
closeted.
There wasn't the same sense ofpride and affirmation and anger
(16:08):
that existed in the GayLiberation Front.
And I what I liked about theGay Liberation Front is that it
was the first time in Britishhistory that tens of thousands
of people came out.
The first time there were everany protests for LGBT plus
rights.
Um the first time we began tostop apologizing and pleading
(16:30):
for our rights and just demandedand asserted them.
And also I like the fact thatthe Gay Liberation Front um had
an agenda, a wider agenda, anintersectional agenda beyond
mere LGBT plus rights.
So we supported the Irishfreedom movement, the struggles
of working class people, women'sand black liberation.
(16:52):
We saw ourselves as part of awider, broader movement to
transform society.
Whereas the campaign forhomosexual equality was very
much about seeking equalitywithin the status quo, whereas
outrage is about tearing up thestatus quo and creating a new
agenda, uh, and equality, butbut on a new and higher level,
(17:12):
and not just to benefit LGBTs,but to benefit all oppressed
people.
James (17:17):
And your your life seemed like it was moving extremely
quickly at this point becauseyou came out in uh sort of by
the end of the 1960s, you youmoved to London, you and and and
you joined uh uh GLF almostwithin the same two or three
year period.
Uh how how how was your how didit feel?
Your life must have just beengoing right next speed.
Peter (17:40):
Well, it was, and it was very exciting.
Um to come to London and toattend those weekly Gay
Liberation Gay Liberation Fundmeetings was an incredible
personal liberation.
To be in a meeting room withtwo, three, four hundred other
people who were champing at thebit to challenge in the
(18:01):
injustice that the LGBTs faced,that was incredibly exciting.
And we what we what we weredoing was taking on the
homophobia, biphobia, andtransphobia of centuries.
Yeah.
You know, we weren't merelyasking for law reform, which was
predominantly the campaign forhomosexual equalities agenda.
(18:21):
We wanted to challenge thehomophobia of the church, you
know, the media, the armedforces, the education system.
You know, it was for us it wasthrough hearts and minds stuff.
Yeah, and uh of society.
Yeah, and it was like to tackleevery aspect of discrimination
and second class status that hadbeen thrust upon us.
(18:44):
Um so we had this very simplethree-word slogan, gay is good.
Now that may seem nothingtoday, but back then that was a
revolutionary idea.
Because all throughout historyup until then, the prevading
view was that gay was mad, bad,and sad.
(19:06):
Um you know, we were victims.
And what GLF did was turn thatvictimhood on its head.
You know, we were no longervictims.
We were going to be victors.
Yeah.
We were going to challengethose who put us down.
And you know, we weren'tafraid.
We weren't afraid of gettingarrested.
We weren't afraid of um youknow the abuse and threats that
(19:30):
followed from far rightextremists, or indeed from
sections of the media.
We were determined to fight forour rights.
And that was unprecedented inBritish history.
It had never happened before.
Jonathan (19:46):
One of the reasons we really wanted to talk to UK
activists is that one of theevents that is kind of written
large in the history of the LGBTmovement is the Stonewall riots
in New York, 1969, the year umthe year you came out.
Did that have a real effect foryou?
Did that have an did that reachAustralia?
Did it reach here?
It had were people talkingabout here when you had moved
(20:08):
here.
Peter (20:10):
I never heard about the Stonewall riots when they
happened.
The first thing I heard was inthe autumn of 1969, probably
around September, maybe October,um, I read a small news in
brief in one of the Melbournenewspapers, which simply says
something like, you know,hundreds or maybe thousands of
(20:32):
homosexuals marched through NewYork last night to demand gay
liberation, or maybe gayliberation or equal rights, or
something, I can't rememberexactly.
Um that was my first inklingthat other people were
campaigning.
Um and I thought to myself,wow, I want to be part of that.
(20:53):
But of course, back then inMelbourne, there was nothing.
I remember going to half adozen of the gay friends that
I'd made that year andsuggesting the idea of setting
up a gay organization.
They all scoffed or eitherscoffed or looked at me with
(21:15):
horror, you know, go away.
You're gonna get us allarrested.
You're only seventeen, what doyou know?
Go go away.
James (21:24):
Um And is that is that very much how kind of because
there is a definitely aprevailing narrative of, you
know, we we live in the shadowsand we stay in the shadows, and
we kind of know our place, ourplace is in the shadows, we're
we're we know how that works,we're comfortable here, it's not
ideal, but we're comfortablehere.
Don't upset the status quo orthe apple cut.
Peter (21:44):
That was overwhelmingly the predominant view, yeah.
Was that and there were butthere were one or two who are
sort of sympathetic but tooscared.
Yeah.
They thought you know therewould be a policeman's knock on
the door.
Yeah.
So all I could do in thosecircumstances was just.
I wrote letters to the pressand challenging homophobia and
making the case fordecriminalization and so on.
(22:08):
But initially I was too afraidto you know sign my name, or let
alone my address.
But over the months Ieventually began giving my name
and address.
But I I was still alwaysnervous and apprehensive that
you know the newspaper wouldgive the letter to the police
and the police would comeknocking at the door.
James (22:26):
And that fear of repercussions is something that
obviously you have to an extent,but that you really have fought
back on and you are comfortabledoing something knowing that it
might have terriblerepercussions, knowing that you
might be arrested or or beatenup or worse.
(22:47):
And how do you channel thatanxiety but still plow on
regardless?
What what drives you on in todo that?
Peter (22:56):
People have asked me, you know, what motivates you?
Yeah.
I know it may sound reallycorny, but I love other people.
I love freedom, equality,justice.
Those values are reallyimportant to me.
And you know, I'm not motivatedby hate or anger.
It's although I sometimes doget a bit angry about injustice,
(23:17):
but primarily it's about love,you know.
And I want me and others to allbe treated with love.
And when there's injustice,there's an absence of love.
It's the opposite.
So that's that load star issort of been sort of my guiding
(23:40):
light for the last you knowfifty, well, almost sixty years.
And putting your physicalsecurity at risk.
Yeah, I'm I'm terrified.
You know, many of thoseprotests, I when I when I tried
twice to arrest President Mugabeof Zimbabwe, I was terrified.
(24:00):
You know, I was shaking.
My stomach was churning overbecause I didn't know how they'd
react.
And of course, you know, thesecond time I got beaten
unconscious by his bodyguards.
And that with other assaultslike the ones by neo-Nazis in
Moscow in 2007, have left mewith the cognitive damage and
(24:21):
eye damage.
But I just think, well, I canpoint to all these changes that
I and others have helped bringabout, which makes life better
for LGBTs today, so it's worthit.
But it's been tough, it's beentough, you know.
I've I suffer frompost-traumatic stress disorder.
I was attacked in the streetjust yesterday.
(24:43):
Oh god.
Um you know, uh it's just it'sthe routine part of my life, but
you know, I am still here, youknow.
Yeah, I I'm not gonna be forcedout by bullies and I've got a
very stubborn street.
I don't want to give homophobesand biophobes and transphobes
the satisfaction that they'veforced me out.
(25:05):
Yeah.
Jonathan (25:05):
Yeah.
It's it's so inspiring.
Um because you know, lots of ussee injustice, but don't put
themselves on the line.
You know, it's it's trulyinspiring the stories that you
share in the life.
Peter (25:17):
Well, each each person must do what they feel they can.
Yeah.
Jonathan (25:20):
Yeah.
Peter (25:20):
But I would say that everybody should do something.
Maybe not the crazy things thatI've done, but do something,
you know.
Even if it's just right into amember of parliament or, you
know, joining a a protest orsomething, you know.
It's action equals life,silence equals death.
That was the act up slogan.
That's act of.
Jonathan (25:39):
And it's still relevant today.
And if we go back to the early1970s in the UK, what were some
of the risks that LGBT peoplefaced, um, both legal and
experiential society?
Peter (25:51):
Aaron Ross Powell Well, of course, there had been a
partial decriminalization ofmale homosexuality in 1967, but
only in England and Wales, notin Scotland until 1980, and not
in Northern Ireland until 1982,uh, not until the not to the
armed forces uh until 1994, andnot to the merchant navy until
(26:15):
2016.
Oh wow.
Um so yeah, it was a verylimited partial
decriminalization.
Most aspects of gay male liferemained criminalized.
And in the years after 1967, inthe few years afterwards, um
arrests and convictions of gayand bisexual men increased by
(26:36):
400%.
So decriminalization, but ahuge rocket in arrests and
convictions, uh, mostlytargeting gay cruising areas,
uh, but also clubs and saunas,private birthday parties.
You know, the police wereabsolute monsters.
They were out of control.
(26:57):
They would abuse you as nothingqueer, um or bender or faggot
or poof or dike or lesie.
Um there was nothing you coulddo.
Um and on top of that, youknow, they would so often lie in
wait outside gay bars andclubs, and as men came out at
(27:18):
closing time, they'd sort oforder them to move on.
And if they didn't promptlymove, they'd be pushed and
shoved, sometimes arrested.
Anybody who challenged them gotbeaten up, and there was
nothing you could do.
Nothing you could do.
Jonathan (27:33):
Were people still being arrested for impertuning?
Peter (27:35):
Oh, yes, yeah.
Yeah.
Can you tell everyone what thatis?
Umtuning is basically um theact of two men eyeing each other
up in the street, uh, maybesmiling at each other, um, and
then stopping talking andexchanging names and phone
(27:57):
numbers.
But people were actuallyarrested and convicted for
importuning, uh, these are twomen for homosexual immature
importuning on the grounds theymerely looked or smiled at each
other.
Yes, they might have had thingsrepeatedly, more than once.
And so they didn't have to havesex.
(28:18):
That that wasn't that wasn't acriteria.
Yeah.
And then similarly, the act ofprocuring a homosexual act, that
that sort of inviting,encouraging, aiding and
abetting, that was still illegalfor many years afterwards.
So i I used to have friends wholived in Manchester, and you
know, occasionally I invitedthem to come and stay, uh, in
(28:41):
the spare bedroom, but both theyand I were committing a
criminal offence punishable upto two years' imprisonment.
They were having sex in a housewhere more than two people were
present, and I was allowingthem to do this.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Phew.
James (28:58):
And did I suppose you were very conscious of how
illegal that was and and therisk, I suppose, because it
wasn't just one of those laws onthe statute books that people
weren't enforcing.
The police were going after it.
Peter (29:09):
Yeah.
But it was quite hard for themto catch people, but yet even so
you always you always had inthe back of your mind, well,
this is illegal and the policecould barge in and arrest us
all.
Um So yeah, there was, youknow, obviously, you know,
merely kissing, holding hands,or having a cuddle on the
(29:30):
street, that could also get youarrested.
And, you know, vicious.
And then when you're arrested,you often would be abused by the
police.
They might beat you up in thepolice station.
It was shocking.
It was people today um justit's hard to even imagine w how
(29:51):
bad it was.
But this is not to say thatthis isn't this is the universe
experience.
Some people had their own theyh hid away discreetly and they
they got away with it and theywere never never troubled.
But if you stuck your neck outor didn't abide by the very
strict rules and expectations,then you could be in big
trouble.
(30:11):
You could lose your job.
You know it It was lawful tosack someone from their job
because they were gay.
Um it was lawful for a landlordto refuse to rent you premises
or to evict you from premises ifyou're gay, lesbian, bisexual,
or trans.
Uh there was no kind of legalprotection whatsoever against
discrimination or harassment.
Jonathan (30:32):
I went to a house a few years ago um in West London
which has two front doors.
It's one house, it had twofront doors, and the history of
that building was that a gaycouple lived side by side, and
they would only ever go inthrough their own front door.
This was in the 30s and 40s,but they had had the kind of
(30:52):
walls removed in the middle.
So to the outside world, itlooked like there were two
bachelors who were neighbors andthe internal parts of their
house had been remodeled so thatthey could they could live a
life behind those doors, but itwas very much behind those
doors.
And you were one of theorganizers heavily involved in
the first pride parade here inLondon.
(31:13):
Can you tell us we want to hearall about that?
Peter (31:16):
Well, how the idea came about was that the prevailing
view of society was that LGBTplus people should be ashamed of
who you are.
So the opposite to shame ispride.
So um a group of us in the GayLiberation Fund hit on the idea
(31:37):
of holding a gay pride march toaffirm who we were, to say we
were proud, to challenge thatprevailing shameful view.
We had no idea who would turnup because back in those days
most LGBT plus people werecloseted, they would never show
(31:58):
their faces.
Um so it was a huge gamble tohold such a march, but by this
time hundreds of people wereattending the weekly Gay
Liberation Front meetings.
So we assumed, yeah, it willprobably work.
We may only get a few hundred,but well that's a start, you
know, from from small acorns,great oaks grow.
(32:19):
Yes.
Um we began, you know, flyeringand leafetting um gay venues.
I remember two weeks about twoweeks before that first gay
pride, which was on the first ofJuly 1972 in London, a group of
(32:40):
about twenty of us from the GayLiberation Front went to the
gay, what was in the gay ghettoof Elles Court, where there were
two two gay pubs and a gayclub.
Colhern, the Boltons, and theCatacombs.
Um drum up support for thePride March.
(33:05):
So we marched with our GayLiberation Front banner from the
tube station down to the pubs.
Um and when we got to theColhern, um lots of people were
standing, it was summer's day, alot of people were standing
outside drinking.
Um they started to boo and jeerus, and uh as we tried to walk
into the pub, we were elbowedand shoved.
(33:26):
Yeah, it was quite quite ahostile atmosphere.
People saying you're you'reextremists, you're gonna give us
a bad name.
Oh, really?
James (33:33):
So that's the that's the the set of people that were
comfortable to say, and justleave leave leave this alone,
don't lift up that rock.
You don't know what'sunderneath it.
Peter (33:41):
I remember one guy said, you know, we should keep our
heads down, to which I replied,if you keep your head down, you
get your head kicked in, uh, wehave to stand up, stick up for
ourselves.
Yeah.
Um we got into the pub, but wehad some sympathetic responses,
but mostly it was like, youknow, get out of here.
(34:02):
I'm I'm cruising, you know.
I've come here for a drink.
Yes.
Um and eventually we wererejected.
Wow.
By a combination of the barstaff and the some of the gay
men in the pub.
So that's what we were upagainst.
There was a whole strata ofLGBT plus society that had
(34:25):
internalized the homophobia.
They thought they weren'tequal.
They thought they deserved tobe treated as second class
because in their minds theywere.
They were flawed, imperfect,abnormal, unnatural, you know.
Everything that straightsociety put on us, a lot of
people in our community believedit.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Interesting.
James (34:48):
Um which is still a problem to some extent.
People people still feel gayshame in some sense, I think.
Um still have to come out everytime you meet a new set of
people or or start a new job oror whatever else.
There's still a lot ofdifferent processes that that
that you have to go to.
I think there is still a lot ofthat.
(35:10):
Come on, huge distance.
Yeah, you know, to your point,acorns turn into mighty oaks,
that's definitely where we'reat, but but there's still
there's still more to do.
Peter (35:20):
Yeah, I mean, that first march, there's probably about
700 people.
James (35:25):
Oh wow.
Peter (35:27):
Uh we assembled in Trafalgar Square and then
marched via Chandcross Road andOxford Street to uh Hyde Park.
What was extraordinary to mewas the vast number of police.
There was virtually a policeofficer for every marcher.
Wow.
And lots of lots on the sides,you know, side streets and
(35:48):
treading behind in vans and soon.
Um you definitely got thefeeling that they regarded us as
criminals, as dangerous peoplewho had to be watched.
And there may have been one ortwo exceptions, but the the body
language and the way the policespoke was aggressive, hostile,
(36:12):
unsympathetic.
James (36:13):
And that wouldn't have just been the police doing that
themselves.
That would have been aninstruction from government as
well.
So the government waspresumably part of the the the
the set of you know the thethought of what you were doing
as hostile.
Peter (36:26):
Yeah, I mean I can't say whether they got instructions
from up on high in thegovernment, but um their
demeanour reflected thedemeanour of the government,
yeah, of the day.
Um led by a closet gay man,Edward Heath, but one who
prevailed over homophobicsociety and did nothing to
(36:48):
change the laws.
Um The most memorable incidenton that uh march was we were
going up Oxford Street and I wascarrying a small sign, gay is
good, and off on the pavementwas a very elderly wizened old
woman in twin set and pearls,laden with shopping, and she was
(37:12):
on the edge of the pavement andshe peered over as I came up
and said, Oh, what's gay?
And I said, Oh, gay meanshomosexual.
And she shrugged her shouldersand said, Oh, oh, oh, good luck.
Good luck.
Things like that gave us hopethat you know things could
change.
But overall, I say on themarch, about a third of the
(37:36):
public were hostile, you know,shouting abuse, sometimes
throwing things at us.
Wow.
James (37:43):
Um is that gathered specifically to protest?
No.
Just have people that happenedto be there pass us by.
Peter (37:51):
Just happened to be there on the pavement, yeah.
Um, just, I suppose, confused,bewildered, disbelieving that
gay people would dare show theirfaces in public.
And just like these strangesort of open-mouth stares.
(38:11):
Um But then I'd say overall,probably about a third of the
people were actually supportive.
People gave thumbs up, clapped,said good on you, yeah.
Wow.
That gave us hope.
When we got to Hyde Park, um,of course, there was there was
no um, you know, corporatesponsorship or anything like
(38:32):
that.
It was DIY party games, so wewe everybody most people bought
food and drink and often alcoholand dope.
So we had a big what we calleda gay day, which is basically
open air picnic in Hyde Park, umplaying party games and like
spin the bottle, and you know.
And what was interesting, thepolice lined up on the side of
(38:56):
the park, um, going down ParkLane, quite a distance away.
There's probably about wellover a hundred of them, uh maybe
a bit more, but they were alllike you know, their their body
language, folded arms, scowlingfaces.
I mean, under normalcircumstances, if it was just
(39:17):
two or three of us, they wouldhave arrested us.
Yeah.
But because there were so many,I presume, they didn't dare.
So we got away with it.
And that taught us a lesson,you know, safety and numbers.
Yeah.
And don't don't think thepolice, you know, cannot be
stopped or cannot cannot be outfoxed.
James (39:37):
Yeah.
Jonathan (39:37):
And at the end of the day, as the crowds are
dispersing from Hyde Park, didyou have a moment to think, oh
God, we did this?
Peter (39:45):
Yeah, I think, you know, even halfway through we we we
thought, well, this is this issuccess.
Yeah.
It's not thousands, it's only700, but this is success.
This is a start.
And even before we got to HydePark, I think we were all
thinking, you know, we're gonnado this again next year.
Jonathan (40:03):
It was already it was already a fixture of the
calendar from then on.
Did you did you at a time thinkabout what it would turn into
today?
Was that was that did you dareto dream that big or we could
talk about whether it's good orbad, but this is the size of it?
Peter (40:18):
Uh no, we had no idea it would ever get as big as it
does.
Yeah, we we thought it wouldgrow and yeah, as I said, yeah,
the plan was to do it next yearand by implication the year
after.
Um as far as I know, that gaypride march in London was the
first in the world to callitself gay pride.
Jonathan (40:37):
I was gonna ask you that.
Because it was ChristopherStreet Liberation Day in the US
the following year.
Yeah.
So that's in Or in the pr inthe preceding year.
Sorry, the preceding year, yes,okay.
Peter (40:47):
Um in some cities it was called Queer Liberation Day or
Gay Liberation Day.
But I think we were the firstto actually call it Gay Pride,
yeah.
James (40:56):
Fantastic.
Peter (40:56):
And we call it Gay Pride, not LGBT plus pride or not just
pride, you know.
Yeah.
Because in back in those days,gay was encompassing.
Encompassing.
Jonathan (41:05):
Yeah.
The other famous GLF protestwas against the Festival of
Light.
Um and I would love to hear alittle bit about what that was,
your involvement in it.
Um I know that it was quite along, really well planned
protest and campaign thatinvolved infiltration and a
whole range of things.
So we would love to hear yourthoughts on that.
Peter (41:26):
Yeah, so in 1971, um the Festival of Light was set up by
morality campaigner MaryWhitehouse, with the support of
you know, well known Christianslike Malcolm Muggeridge, um
Cliff Richard, uh Bishop TrevorHowlston, and others.
(41:47):
Its agenda was primarily torecriminalize pornography, uh,
abortion, and homosexuality.
So they were against what theycalled the permissive society
and their goal was to roll backthe reforms of the 1960s.
So LGBTs were very much intheir sights.
(42:10):
Um we in the Gay LiberationFund hit on the idea of doing a
counter protest um at their mainlaunch event at Central Hall,
Westminster, you know, rightopposite Parliament and
Westminster Abbey.
Um so we codenamed it OperationRupert after the cartoon
(42:34):
character Rupert Baer in thesatirical underground magazine
Oz.
Um and we bought some a handfulof genuine tickets and then
forged hundreds of others usingthe the using the template.
Um and the idea was toinfiltrate a hundred plus people
(42:57):
into the meeting and then to doa series of protests uh during
the course of the meeting.
So disruption and um spoilingthe launch was the was the main
focus.
This involved varioussubgroups.
I was with the youth group,there's only about twenty yeah,
(43:20):
not nineteen at the time,nineteen at the time.
Um I was with the youth group.
Um and so at a certain pointduring proceedings the youth
group about we weren't theentire youth group, but those of
us who were who were there,there were probably about 10 of
us, stood up and same-sex kissedin the balcony.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Huh.
Peter (43:42):
Um and then that created mayhem, and then a little bit
later, um somebody further up inthe balcony, another section,
unfurled a big banner sayingCliff for Queen, having a go at
Cliff Richard.
Um, then down Below a group ofgay men in Nundrag started doing
(44:05):
the can started doing the cancan down the aisles.
Then later on there's anothergroup released mice into the
audience and you know peoplestarted screaming and running.
So it was it was all aroundMayhem.
James (44:18):
Were you thrown out after your after the after your
stunts, your your your part ofthe scene, did you get kicked
out by security or did youmanage to they they tried to,
but at a certain point wethought we made our point, so we
we left voluntarily.
Peter (44:32):
Oh fine, right.
James (44:33):
But there were too many different groups or they
couldn't tell who was actuallygenuinely there for the event
and who was you was there todisrupt it.
Jonathan (44:40):
Yeah.
And I think I told you this onthe phone, but I was at um
Central Hall uh a few months agoat the Up West End Awards, and
it was hosted by a drag queen.
And I thought, oh my gosh, howfar how far this building has
come?
Absolutely.
James (44:54):
What wait what what what I'm just I'm I'm just so curious
about this day, and I thinkthis this this this day of
protest in Central Hall justsounds so amazing.
What what happened afterwards?
Presumably you all had a kindof rendezvous point outside the
building, you knew that you weregonna get kicked out
eventually.
What was there an air ofjubilation afterwards?
Peter (45:10):
Oh yes.
Oh yeah, we felt that we'dspoiled, we'd rained on their
parade.
Yeah.
And you know, we would haveloved to have had a proper
dialogue, and we did havedialogue with some of the people
who came out afterwards, butmost of them are pretty
fanatical, you know.
Oh really.
Um and yeah, it was it was hardto have dialogue, but yeah, we
(45:32):
we did we did talk to some ofthe people, um, some quite a few
of us stayed outside as thecrowds came out and engaged with
people, and we got quite a lotof hostility, but there were
some people who did engage andyou know who feigned some
sympathy for your sympathy foryour plight.
Plight you you poor sicksinners.
Jonathan (45:54):
Yeah, we have sympathy for you.
Yeah.
And the GLF um burned reallybrightly, but not for a very
long time.
Can you tell us about how itdisbanded?
Peter (46:05):
Well, like any radical movement where there's no money,
no funds, no office, no staffsupport, it's sustained by
volunteers.
And that's great as long asvolunteers are around, but if
volunteers have to move to adifferent part of the country
because of their job or partneror whatever, there are lots of
(46:26):
different things that makemovements quite you know
unstable.
I think for the Gay LiberationFront, um one of the mistaken
decisions, in my view, was to sdevolve to groups uh that are
(46:48):
locally based.
So there was a South LondonGLF, a West London GLF, an East
London GLF, a North London GLF.
So that diffused the you know,critical mass that we had at the
weekly meetings in NottinghillGate.
That diffused them to thesefour other centres.
(47:08):
And in the process the energy,you know, was lost, I think.
And it meant that each of thesegroups had to do off their own
back what we collectively wereall doing as well, and which was
much, much easier.
Plus there was quite a bigissue over lesbians leaving GLF
(47:32):
feeling that some of the gay menwere misogynist and sexist and
were not addressing women'sissues.
James (47:42):
Was there some truth in that?
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Peter (47:45):
I mean it's not I don't think any any of the men in GLF
were overtly or deliberatelymisogynist, but they just had a
mindset that, you know, um lawreform or some other gay male
issue was more important and interms of numbers the meetings
(48:08):
were overwhelmingly male.
Right.
Not that women were excluded,but women felt in a minority.
And this is the time of the bigexplosion of the women's
liberation movement.
And a lot of lesbians, I think,understandably felt, well,
let's work through the women'sliberation movement.
James (48:27):
Is it is it something you regret perhaps that there
weren't more women involved, orthat that you and others didn't
do more to try to get more womento participate, and that that
led map maybe to some of thechallenges at the end, or or are
you is is it that's just theway it went and it would have
been hard to do thingsdifferently?
Peter (48:45):
Yeah, I think in that era or even today, it is a fact
that most organizations tend tobe male dominated.
Even if they don't intend tobe.
So that's a real problem forwomen, you know?
And I think GLF suffered fromthat.
And yeah, I I wish we'd donemore.
(49:05):
And there there was a group ofwomen who stayed within GLF who
didn't agree with the moreseparatist approach.
Uh and they they continued andstayed on and worked worked with
it within GLF.
And I think that they played avery important role.
Jonathan (49:23):
There weren't very many of them, but they played a
very important role.
And activism continuedthroughout the 1970s and into
the 1980s, and then the HIVepidemic came along.
Do you feel that the HIVepidemic changed the nature of
activism in the in in the queercommunities?
Peter (49:40):
Oh, absolutely.
What happened was a lot ofpeople shifted out of LGBT plus
activism into AIDS activism ortreatment support research
groups.
So you had a whole cater ofseasoned, very effective LGBT
(50:01):
plus campaigners who droppedthat button and took up the
button of fighting HIV and AIDS.
And that was necessary, but itleft the wider movement severely
depleted and diminished.
So I would say that the focusof the LGBT plus community in
(50:26):
terms of campaigning shifteddramatically from LGBT plus
issues into HIV and AIDS.
Jonathan (50:33):
And can you tell us a bit about your own AIDS activism
with the UK AIDS VigilOrganization?
Peter (50:38):
Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of freelance ad hoc HIV AIDS
campaigning in the from theearly 1980s.
Um getting together like-mindedgroups of people to do specific
actions um around demandingbetter government funding for
the Terran Seagans Trust.
(51:00):
You know, by the mid-1980s, theTerran Seagans Trust had
received, I think, only onegrant of £35,000 from the
Thatcher government.
Wow.
And it was the leadorganization for HIV education,
prevention, treatment, care andsupport.
£35,000.
So insulting, so typical of thegovernment's the Thatcher
(51:22):
government's disregard anddisrespect for our community.
So um yeah, so th th those aresome of the issues we we we
campaigned on.
Um then in the late 80s, 1987,I heard that the British
government was planning to hosta World Health Minister Summit
(51:46):
on AIDS in London in January1988.
So this was about a yearbeforehand.
So together with Phil Cox, whowas HIV positive and involved in
HIV campaigning, um, we set upthe UK AIDS Vigil Organization.
And our remit was to put humanrights front and center.
(52:08):
At that stage, the human rightsof people living with HIV and
AIDS was just not on the agenda,not an issue.
Um we wanted to make it anissue.
So we draft between the two ofus, we drafted what turned out
to be the world's first ever HIVAIDS human rights charter,
(52:30):
setting out how governments,organizations, and individuals
should treat people living withHIV and AIDS.
And then we organized on theeve of the World Health
Ministers Summit, a hugecandlelit march from Hyde Park
to the Queen Elizabeth IIConference Centre where the
(52:53):
health ministers were going tobe meeting.
Um it was just it was just somagnificent.
The whole of Whitehall, fromTrafalgar Square to Parliament
Square, was just a sea ofcandles.
An extraordinarily beautifulsite.
Um and then we rallied and hadspeeches outside the QE2 centre
(53:14):
um calling on the healthministers to put combating
discrimination on the agenda.
It wasn't on the agenda.
We said this has got to be onthe agenda.
And then on the opening day ofthe conference, we held a
parallel AIDS and human rightsconference uh right next door in
Central Hall Westminster.
Oh wow.
(53:34):
Um where Derek Jarman came outas being HIV positive, and many
people from organizations likeBody Positive, uh Frontliners,
Terrorists Trust, uh LondonLighthouse and others spoke.
So we really set the agendathrough the march and the
(53:56):
conference that there had to bethe issue of human rights
addressed.
Um we weren't convinced we madeit.
So what I did was um theleft-wing Labour newspaper
tribune gave me a journalistpass.
So on the closing day of theconference, uh I went as a
(54:18):
journalist and then midway inthe afternoon um got off of my
seat, strode to the front, anddemanded that they issue a
statement opposingdiscrimination.
And so I was just saying that,you know, one of the unintended
consequences what of of of HIVand AIDS was a huge increase in
(54:41):
prejudice, monstrousism,discrimination, and hate crime.
And we have to address that.
You know, you cannot fight thisvirus by demonizing people.
And there were calls in thosein those days, even by
politicians in this country, toround up all gay people or all
people with HIV and put them inquarantine camps.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Yeah.
Peter (55:02):
Um so uh that made quite a bit of an impact.
And but they gave me a you knowprobably three or four minutes
to speak.
Oh wow.
Um, but the upshot was at theend they did issue a statement
condemning discrimination,saying that, you know, people
with HIV must be treated withrespect and the the focus must
(55:24):
be on education and support.
Wow.
So that was I know it was justwords, but at least it was
there.
Yeah, yeah.
And it gave activists all overthe world a template, a
reference point, uh, uh adocument they could cite in
support of their own work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The starting point of the case.
And that that was that was thethat was the whole idea was to
(55:46):
get that World Health MedicineConference to make a statement
like that so it could be used byactivists all over the world to
hold their governments toaccount.
You were there, you were atthis conference, you signed the
declaration, it's got thisclause about
anti-discrimination, we expectyou to honour it.
Amazing.
That was incredibly useful.
Didn't always work.
No, of course, but it gave ahuge uh you know, it it gave
(56:10):
something that could be citedand used by activists.
Yeah.
James (56:13):
That kind of almost global recognition that that's
this is part of what we'retrying to do.
Yeah.
So powerful.
And so extraordinary to havebut again, just like how brave
you were just to brazenly chargeup to the lecture and just say,
guys, this is what I want youto do.
And like I'm I'm I'm in so muchawe at the every opportunity
(56:34):
you've had to jump in to dosomething to to go the extra
mile you've taken him.
Peter (56:39):
Oh, I don't think it was bray, but it I mean I've been
incredibly nervous.
With all these things, it'spart nerves is partly about will
will I be stopped before I getto do it.
Yeah.
Will security grab me and thewhole thing or plan will go to
pieces?
Or will I will I express whatneed what needs to be expressed
adequately?
Well I will I will I say whatneeds to be said, um, and then
(57:02):
of course, will it have anyimpact?
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Yeah.
Jonathan (57:11):
Thank you for listening to the view from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (57:22):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury.
And I'm gay.
Peter (00:11):
A group of us in the Gay Liberation Fund getting the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Intro (00:20):
Equality, and for some people in Stonewall like me,
equality was kind of like whatyou got to as a starting point.
Jonathan (00:27):
Welcome to the View From Here, the podcast that
explores the lives of key peoplein the LGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm Jonathan.
And I'm James.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.
Today we're joined for thefirst of two episodes with Peter
Tatchell, a lifelong humanrights campaigner known for his
fearless direct action andglobal LGBTQ Plus advocacy.
James (00:51):
In part one, we hear about his childhood, early
activism, and some of the firstpride campaigns in London.
With such a unique history andvoice, we let Peter introduce
himself.
Peter (01:05):
Peter, welcome.
Glad to join you.
So my name is Peter Tatchell.
I've been campaigning for LGBTplus and other human rights
since 1967, when I was age 15and still at school.
In that time, I've beeninvolved in more than 3,000
(01:26):
direct action protests, many ofthem involving acts of
non-violent civil disobedience,in order to fight for a better
world.
Also in that time, I've beenarrested or detained by the
police more than a hundredtimes, been subjected to over
300 violent assaults, mostlyfrom homophobes and far right
(01:49):
extremists, plus more than 50attacks upon my home, including
three arson attacks and even abullet through my front door.
But I'm still here, and I'mstill fighting and still
determined to help do my bit fora better future.
James (02:06):
Wow.
And and you know, your yourlife story is extraordinary.
Jonathan and I were both sograteful for the fight that
you've put in that has changedthe world and made the world a
much better place for LGBT pluspeople than it than it was
before.
And I suppose maybe let's goback to the world before your
your work and your activism.
You were born in Melbourne.
(02:27):
Um and am I right in saying youwere an activist from a from a
very young age, even before youyou came out?
Peter (02:34):
Absolutely.
Um I grew up in the 1960s inMelbourne, Australia.
At the time we'd had twodecades of unbroken right-wing
conservative rule.
And on top of that, Australiawas fighting alongside the
Americans in Vietnam, and therewas the draft for that war.
And initially I thought the warwas, you know, a just war, you
(02:57):
know, to stop communism.
But when I delved into it anddiscovered the horrendous things
that Allied troops were doingin Vietnam, you know, the mass
indiscriminate bombing ofcivilian areas, the massacre of
villages, uh the notoriousKonson tiger cages, where people
were any dissident was torturedoften to death.
(03:20):
Um I became an implacableopponent of uh the Vietnam War
and the draft for that war.
James (03:28):
And you know, that I guess that I've heard you were
also activist uh against thedeath penalty, um supportive of
ad Aboriginal rights as well.
I mean it feels like activismis just in your DNA.
And did is that how it feltgrowing up that you saw
injustice all around you and youwanted to play a part in
addressing that?
Peter (03:47):
Yeah, I mean I grew up in a very traditional, small city
conservative working classfamily.
Um my father was a did eng wasan engineer and worked in an
engineering factory.
Um my family had no interest inthe wider outside world, their
focus was on the church and thefamily.
(04:08):
They're extremely strictfundamentalist Christians, you
know, Pentecostal evangelicals.
Um so I never got any of myactivist ideas from them.
I just morphed towards that.
Probably the biggest influencewas the Black Civil Rights
(04:28):
Movement in America.
Although it was thousands ofmiles away, it was on the
nightly news.
Um virtually every day, everynight, some terrible thing, a
lynching of black people, arrestof black people trying to eat
at a lunch counter, which wasreserved for whites only.
Um but the the thing thatreally struck me, and it's it's
(04:51):
my first, I suppose, perhaps thememory that made me an activist
or gravitated me towardsactivism, was in 1963, when I
was eleven years old, I heardabout the bombing by white
racists of a black church inBirmingham, Alabama, where four
young girls about my own agewere murdered.
(05:13):
I thought to myself, how couldanyone kill another human being,
let alone four young girls inchurch on Sunday?
And you know, until that momentI hadn't really I just noted
the news about the black civilrights struggle, but I hadn't
(05:33):
really taken a close interest,but that got me interested.
I saw this as a just fight.
You know, I was white,thousands of miles away, but I
understood instantly that was aninjustice that had to be fought
against.
And I suppose it opened my mindto other injustices.
So it it led me to questionAustralia's involvement in the
(05:56):
Vietnam War, uh the way in whichour own indigenous black
Australians, the Aboriginalpeoples, were being treated, um
and the death penalty as well.
James (06:06):
Yeah, in injustice, as uh as you say, is all around.
And how you know you said yougrew up in a small sea
conservative PentecostalChristian household.
How did your family react toyour to your activism and uh and
I suppose in 1969 when you whenyou came out?
Peter (06:23):
Well, they strongly disapproved.
Um, their view was that um therole of good Christian is to be
godly and pious and obey the TenCommandments and to shun the
world, you know, not to beinvolved in the world, to shun
it, because the world was not ofthat that that wasn't God's
intention.
God's intention was piety,prayer, salvation.
(06:46):
And uh in terms of my ownhomosexuality, uh for my
parents, being gay was like theequivalent of being a murderer
or a rapist, you know, one ofthe worst possible sins.
So it was very, very tough.
But for me, what was surprisingis that when I first had sex
(07:09):
with a man uh when I was 17, Iimmediately thought, Wow, if
this is what being gay is, I amdefinitely gay.
I am here for it.
And you know, what the Biblesays, it's it's nonsense.
I mean, you know, theprescriptions against various
(07:29):
sins are supposed to protectpeople from harm, quite clearly
to consenting adults and notharming anyone.
Um so that sort of was anotherfactor that impelled me to
eventually distance myself fromthe church and eventually leave
it.
James (07:46):
Quite quite a familiar story, I imagine, to quite a lot
of people that have beenbrought up in a very uh sort of
strong, strict religiousbackground.
Peter (07:53):
But I didn't feel a moment's guilt.
This is the thing.
I I I was curious that I mightbe gay around the age soon after
I was 17, and so I thought,well, the best way to to test it
out is to try it.
And that's what I did.
But I did not have a moment'sguilt.
I just thought very rationallyand coolly, you know, we're not
(08:17):
harming anybody.
Um, this has given meincredible physical sexual
pleasure, but also an emotionalbond with someone.
Yeah.
Um how can that be wrong?
James (08:29):
And this but this approach to being so headstrong
about creating your your ownview of what is rational,
logical, right that that feelsto me something that's very
specific to you, that you areyou are a very headstrong person
very clearly and and veryforward-thinking.
Presumably the true prevailingnarrative in the media and other
things at that time wasdefinitely not what you were
(08:51):
what you were thinking.
Peter (08:52):
Well, absolutely.
I mean, at the time, uh in thestate of Victoria, in Australia,
um, male homosexuality wasstill a serious criminal
offense.
You could be jailed for severalyears, and you know, obviously
we would be beaten up in prisonas well.
Yeah.
Um on top of that, you could incertain certain circumstances
(09:13):
be compelled to undicate uhundertake um aversion therapy.
Wow.
But this was not likeconversion therapy today, which
is all words, it was likeelectric shocks, you know,
strapped in a chair and beinggiven electric shocks to turn
you straight.
Wow.
Jonathan (09:32):
You know, you came out in Melbourne.
Um was there a an LGBT movementthere that you could identify,
that you could take comfortfrom, activism from, a sense of
queer liberation from?
Peter (09:49):
There were no LGBT plus organizations at all in
Melbourne at the time.
No campaign groups, nohelplines, no switchboards, no
counseling services, absolutelynothing.
And so where did your ideas ofqueer liberation come from?
I borrowed them from the BlackCivil Rights Movement.
Right.
Because that was the I saw atemplate there of how you how
(10:12):
you do campaigning for socialchange.
So I didn't have any referencepoint, you know, uh at all.
Um so I I I I figured out in myown teenage mind if black
people are an oppressed minoritywho deserve equal civil rights,
then the same surely applies toLGBTs.
(10:35):
Um so I conceived us as anoppressed victimized minority uh
who had rights and a duties tofight for those rights.
And I can remember, yeah, at 17calculated to myself, based on
the experience of the blackcivil rights movement, that it
(10:57):
would probably take about fiftyyears to win legal equality for
LGBTs in Western countries likeAustralia, United States, and
Britain.
Now that was just aguesstimate, but it's more or
less turned out to be a goodidea.
Um but I was in for the longhaul.
I I said I want to be I want tobe part I've been championing
(11:19):
black Australians, the people ofVietnam, um, and so on and so
on.
Now it's time to put some of mytime and effort into fighting
for me and my people.
Jonathan (11:29):
And we'll come on to um the Gay Liberation Front,
which you were a a part of, andit's links to the Black Civil
Rights Movement.
But before we get there, whatinformed your move to London?
Peter (11:42):
Um well though I'd always had a l uh a desire to travel.
You know, Australia's a bit faraway.
Um so I always had I was alwaysinquisitive, interested in
other cultures and ideas anddifferent places.
So I had that intention anddesire always to travel.
(12:04):
But the main impetus was that Iwas approaching my 20th
birthday when I would have toregister for the draft for
Vietnam.
Right.
And I thought I, you know, I'mnot going to fight in that war.
That war is profoundly immoral.
You know, around this timethere'd been the Miley massacre
(12:26):
where an American company ofsoldiers had massacred hundreds
of Vietnamese women andchildren.
Um and that was just one ofmany, that that's well known.
There were hundreds more thatare barely known or have been
hidden from history.
So I was not going to be partof that.
Um so I was faced with theprospect either I stay and fight
(12:49):
and go to prison for two years,which was the penalty for
refusing to register, or I gooverseas for a while.
And of course I'd only juststarted this new relationship.
Um where we were deeply in loveand the idea of being
separated, you know, where we'rebroken by heart and his.
So um we came to London in uhAugust 1971.
James (13:13):
Were quite a lot of people coming at that time?
I imagine that that a lot ofpeople would have thought to do
the same thing.
Peter (13:20):
Yeah, it's hard to know how many.
Yeah, quite a lot of peoplewent to other other countries.
James (13:26):
Yeah.
And and did did you have asense in from an activist
perspective, you know, you youhad in your mind already that
there's a 50-year fight herethat to be had.
Did you have a sense of this isfine, I'm gonna just take the
same fight to the UK?
Or did you feel at any point asort of sense of were it not for
(13:47):
the for the risk of beingdrafted to Vietnam that you
actually wanted to stay into inAustralia and and do that fight
there?
Peter (13:55):
Yeah, I mean ideally I would have liked to have stayed.
Um there was um an LGBT groupin Sydney called Camp.
Um that was quite small and youknow th there was nothing like
what we now call a communityanywhere in Australia.
So um when I came to Britain,the intention was to stay for
(14:20):
maybe two or three years whenthere was expected to be a
general election and the Labouropposition was due to win, and
they were committed to endingthe draft and um pulling out of
Vietnam.
So the tension was yeah, atemporary stay.
Yeah.
But you know, one thing led toanother.
And and here you here you arein the UK.
James (14:44):
Excellent.
And the UK is very grateful forthat.
Jonathan (14:48):
And how did you first explore activism here in the UK?
Peter (14:56):
On the second day I was in London, I was taking a walk
around the tourist sites, andsaw a sticker on a lamppost
advertising the meetings of thenot long formed Gay Liberation
Front.
So five days later, I was at myfirst meeting, and within a
month I was helping organize umGLF's many spectacular protests.
Jonathan (15:18):
And I for ever for everyone who's listening, really
there was also anotherorganization that was active at
that time, the campaign forhomosexual equality.
It had started in the late1950s as the Northwest
Homosexual Law Reform Societyand then morphed into the CHE.
Do you feel that there wouldhave been a home for you at the
(15:38):
CHE?
Because they're very differentorganizations, the CHE to the
GLF.
Peter (15:43):
Yeah, I I've got total respect for the campaign for
homosexual equality and all thepredecessor activists and
organizations.
But they were very much sortof, you know, within the
establishment framework, andmost people in CHG were still
closeted.
There wasn't the same sense ofpride and affirmation and anger
(16:08):
that existed in the GayLiberation Front.
And I what I liked about theGay Liberation Front is that it
was the first time in Britishhistory that tens of thousands
of people came out.
The first time there were everany protests for LGBT plus
rights.
Um the first time we began tostop apologizing and pleading
(16:30):
for our rights and just demandedand asserted them.
And also I like the fact thatthe Gay Liberation Front um had
an agenda, a wider agenda, anintersectional agenda beyond
mere LGBT plus rights.
So we supported the Irishfreedom movement, the struggles
of working class people, women'sand black liberation.
(16:52):
We saw ourselves as part of awider, broader movement to
transform society.
Whereas the campaign forhomosexual equality was very
much about seeking equalitywithin the status quo, whereas
outrage is about tearing up thestatus quo and creating a new
agenda, uh, and equality, butbut on a new and higher level,
(17:12):
and not just to benefit LGBTs,but to benefit all oppressed
people.
James (17:17):
And your your life seemed like it was moving extremely
quickly at this point becauseyou came out in uh sort of by
the end of the 1960s, you youmoved to London, you and and and
you joined uh uh GLF almostwithin the same two or three
year period.
Uh how how how was your how didit feel?
Your life must have just beengoing right next speed.
Peter (17:40):
Well, it was, and it was very exciting.
Um to come to London and toattend those weekly Gay
Liberation Gay Liberation Fundmeetings was an incredible
personal liberation.
To be in a meeting room withtwo, three, four hundred other
people who were champing at thebit to challenge in the
(18:01):
injustice that the LGBTs faced,that was incredibly exciting.
And we what we what we weredoing was taking on the
homophobia, biphobia, andtransphobia of centuries.
Yeah.
You know, we weren't merelyasking for law reform, which was
predominantly the campaign forhomosexual equalities agenda.
(18:21):
We wanted to challenge thehomophobia of the church, you
know, the media, the armedforces, the education system.
You know, it was for us it wasthrough hearts and minds stuff.
Yeah, and uh of society.
Yeah, and it was like to tackleevery aspect of discrimination
and second class status that hadbeen thrust upon us.
(18:44):
Um so we had this very simplethree-word slogan, gay is good.
Now that may seem nothingtoday, but back then that was a
revolutionary idea.
Because all throughout historyup until then, the prevading
view was that gay was mad, bad,and sad.
(19:06):
Um you know, we were victims.
And what GLF did was turn thatvictimhood on its head.
You know, we were no longervictims.
We were going to be victors.
Yeah.
We were going to challengethose who put us down.
And you know, we weren'tafraid.
We weren't afraid of gettingarrested.
We weren't afraid of um youknow the abuse and threats that
(19:30):
followed from far rightextremists, or indeed from
sections of the media.
We were determined to fight forour rights.
And that was unprecedented inBritish history.
It had never happened before.
Jonathan (19:46):
One of the reasons we really wanted to talk to UK
activists is that one of theevents that is kind of written
large in the history of the LGBTmovement is the Stonewall riots
in New York, 1969, the year umthe year you came out.
Did that have a real effect foryou?
Did that have an did that reachAustralia?
Did it reach here?
It had were people talkingabout here when you had moved
(20:08):
here.
Peter (20:10):
I never heard about the Stonewall riots when they
happened.
The first thing I heard was inthe autumn of 1969, probably
around September, maybe October,um, I read a small news in
brief in one of the Melbournenewspapers, which simply says
something like, you know,hundreds or maybe thousands of
(20:32):
homosexuals marched through NewYork last night to demand gay
liberation, or maybe gayliberation or equal rights, or
something, I can't rememberexactly.
Um that was my first inklingthat other people were
campaigning.
Um and I thought to myself,wow, I want to be part of that.
(20:53):
But of course, back then inMelbourne, there was nothing.
I remember going to half adozen of the gay friends that
I'd made that year andsuggesting the idea of setting
up a gay organization.
They all scoffed or eitherscoffed or looked at me with
(21:15):
horror, you know, go away.
You're gonna get us allarrested.
You're only seventeen, what doyou know?
Go go away.
James (21:24):
Um And is that is that very much how kind of because
there is a definitely aprevailing narrative of, you
know, we we live in the shadowsand we stay in the shadows, and
we kind of know our place, ourplace is in the shadows, we're
we're we know how that works,we're comfortable here, it's not
ideal, but we're comfortablehere.
Don't upset the status quo orthe apple cut.
Peter (21:44):
That was overwhelmingly the predominant view, yeah.
Was that and there were butthere were one or two who are
sort of sympathetic but tooscared.
Yeah.
They thought you know therewould be a policeman's knock on
the door.
Yeah.
So all I could do in thosecircumstances was just.
I wrote letters to the pressand challenging homophobia and
making the case fordecriminalization and so on.
(22:08):
But initially I was too afraidto you know sign my name, or let
alone my address.
But over the months Ieventually began giving my name
and address.
But I I was still alwaysnervous and apprehensive that
you know the newspaper wouldgive the letter to the police
and the police would comeknocking at the door.
James (22:26):
And that fear of repercussions is something that
obviously you have to an extent,but that you really have fought
back on and you are comfortabledoing something knowing that it
might have terriblerepercussions, knowing that you
might be arrested or or beatenup or worse.
(22:47):
And how do you channel thatanxiety but still plow on
regardless?
What what drives you on in todo that?
Peter (22:56):
People have asked me, you know, what motivates you?
Yeah.
I know it may sound reallycorny, but I love other people.
I love freedom, equality,justice.
Those values are reallyimportant to me.
And you know, I'm not motivatedby hate or anger.
It's although I sometimes doget a bit angry about injustice,
(23:17):
but primarily it's about love,you know.
And I want me and others to allbe treated with love.
And when there's injustice,there's an absence of love.
It's the opposite.
So that's that load star issort of been sort of my guiding
(23:40):
light for the last you knowfifty, well, almost sixty years.
And putting your physicalsecurity at risk.
Yeah, I'm I'm terrified.
You know, many of thoseprotests, I when I when I tried
twice to arrest President Mugabeof Zimbabwe, I was terrified.
(24:00):
You know, I was shaking.
My stomach was churning overbecause I didn't know how they'd
react.
And of course, you know, thesecond time I got beaten
unconscious by his bodyguards.
And that with other assaultslike the ones by neo-Nazis in
Moscow in 2007, have left mewith the cognitive damage and
(24:21):
eye damage.
But I just think, well, I canpoint to all these changes that
I and others have helped bringabout, which makes life better
for LGBTs today, so it's worthit.
But it's been tough, it's beentough, you know.
I've I suffer frompost-traumatic stress disorder.
I was attacked in the streetjust yesterday.
(24:43):
Oh god.
Um you know, uh it's just it'sthe routine part of my life, but
you know, I am still here, youknow.
Yeah, I I'm not gonna be forcedout by bullies and I've got a
very stubborn street.
I don't want to give homophobesand biophobes and transphobes
the satisfaction that they'veforced me out.
(25:05):
Yeah.
Jonathan (25:05):
Yeah.
It's it's so inspiring.
Um because you know, lots of ussee injustice, but don't put
themselves on the line.
You know, it's it's trulyinspiring the stories that you
share in the life.
Peter (25:17):
Well, each each person must do what they feel they can.
Yeah.
Jonathan (25:20):
Yeah.
Peter (25:20):
But I would say that everybody should do something.
Maybe not the crazy things thatI've done, but do something,
you know.
Even if it's just right into amember of parliament or, you
know, joining a a protest orsomething, you know.
It's action equals life,silence equals death.
That was the act up slogan.
That's act of.
Jonathan (25:39):
And it's still relevant today.
And if we go back to the early1970s in the UK, what were some
of the risks that LGBT peoplefaced, um, both legal and
experiential society?
Peter (25:51):
Aaron Ross Powell Well, of course, there had been a
partial decriminalization ofmale homosexuality in 1967, but
only in England and Wales, notin Scotland until 1980, and not
in Northern Ireland until 1982,uh, not until the not to the
armed forces uh until 1994, andnot to the merchant navy until
(26:15):
2016.
Oh wow.
Um so yeah, it was a verylimited partial
decriminalization.
Most aspects of gay male liferemained criminalized.
And in the years after 1967, inthe few years afterwards, um
arrests and convictions of gayand bisexual men increased by
(26:36):
400%.
So decriminalization, but ahuge rocket in arrests and
convictions, uh, mostlytargeting gay cruising areas,
uh, but also clubs and saunas,private birthday parties.
You know, the police wereabsolute monsters.
They were out of control.
(26:57):
They would abuse you as nothingqueer, um or bender or faggot
or poof or dike or lesie.
Um there was nothing you coulddo.
Um and on top of that, youknow, they would so often lie in
wait outside gay bars andclubs, and as men came out at
(27:18):
closing time, they'd sort oforder them to move on.
And if they didn't promptlymove, they'd be pushed and
shoved, sometimes arrested.
Anybody who challenged them gotbeaten up, and there was
nothing you could do.
Nothing you could do.
Jonathan (27:33):
Were people still being arrested for impertuning?
Peter (27:35):
Oh, yes, yeah.
Yeah.
Can you tell everyone what thatis?
Umtuning is basically um theact of two men eyeing each other
up in the street, uh, maybesmiling at each other, um, and
then stopping talking andexchanging names and phone
(27:57):
numbers.
But people were actuallyarrested and convicted for
importuning, uh, these are twomen for homosexual immature
importuning on the grounds theymerely looked or smiled at each
other.
Yes, they might have had thingsrepeatedly, more than once.
And so they didn't have to havesex.
(28:18):
That that wasn't that wasn't acriteria.
Yeah.
And then similarly, the act ofprocuring a homosexual act, that
that sort of inviting,encouraging, aiding and
abetting, that was still illegalfor many years afterwards.
So i I used to have friends wholived in Manchester, and you
know, occasionally I invitedthem to come and stay, uh, in
(28:41):
the spare bedroom, but both theyand I were committing a
criminal offence punishable upto two years' imprisonment.
They were having sex in a housewhere more than two people were
present, and I was allowingthem to do this.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Phew.
James (28:58):
And did I suppose you were very conscious of how
illegal that was and and therisk, I suppose, because it
wasn't just one of those laws onthe statute books that people
weren't enforcing.
The police were going after it.
Peter (29:09):
Yeah.
But it was quite hard for themto catch people, but yet even so
you always you always had inthe back of your mind, well,
this is illegal and the policecould barge in and arrest us
all.
Um So yeah, there was, youknow, obviously, you know,
merely kissing, holding hands,or having a cuddle on the
(29:30):
street, that could also get youarrested.
And, you know, vicious.
And then when you're arrested,you often would be abused by the
police.
They might beat you up in thepolice station.
It was shocking.
It was people today um justit's hard to even imagine w how
(29:51):
bad it was.
But this is not to say thatthis isn't this is the universe
experience.
Some people had their own theyh hid away discreetly and they
they got away with it and theywere never never troubled.
But if you stuck your neck outor didn't abide by the very
strict rules and expectations,then you could be in big
trouble.
(30:11):
You could lose your job.
You know it It was lawful tosack someone from their job
because they were gay.
Um it was lawful for a landlordto refuse to rent you premises
or to evict you from premises ifyou're gay, lesbian, bisexual,
or trans.
Uh there was no kind of legalprotection whatsoever against
discrimination or harassment.
Jonathan (30:32):
I went to a house a few years ago um in West London
which has two front doors.
It's one house, it had twofront doors, and the history of
that building was that a gaycouple lived side by side, and
they would only ever go inthrough their own front door.
This was in the 30s and 40s,but they had had the kind of
(30:52):
walls removed in the middle.
So to the outside world, itlooked like there were two
bachelors who were neighbors andthe internal parts of their
house had been remodeled so thatthey could they could live a
life behind those doors, but itwas very much behind those
doors.
And you were one of theorganizers heavily involved in
the first pride parade here inLondon.
(31:13):
Can you tell us we want to hearall about that?
Peter (31:16):
Well, how the idea came about was that the prevailing
view of society was that LGBTplus people should be ashamed of
who you are.
So the opposite to shame ispride.
So um a group of us in the GayLiberation Fund hit on the idea
(31:37):
of holding a gay pride march toaffirm who we were, to say we
were proud, to challenge thatprevailing shameful view.
We had no idea who would turnup because back in those days
most LGBT plus people werecloseted, they would never show
(31:58):
their faces.
Um so it was a huge gamble tohold such a march, but by this
time hundreds of people wereattending the weekly Gay
Liberation Front meetings.
So we assumed, yeah, it willprobably work.
We may only get a few hundred,but well that's a start, you
know, from from small acorns,great oaks grow.
(32:19):
Yes.
Um we began, you know, flyeringand leafetting um gay venues.
I remember two weeks about twoweeks before that first gay
pride, which was on the first ofJuly 1972 in London, a group of
(32:40):
about twenty of us from the GayLiberation Front went to the
gay, what was in the gay ghettoof Elles Court, where there were
two two gay pubs and a gayclub.
Colhern, the Boltons, and theCatacombs.
Um drum up support for thePride March.
(33:05):
So we marched with our GayLiberation Front banner from the
tube station down to the pubs.
Um and when we got to theColhern, um lots of people were
standing, it was summer's day, alot of people were standing
outside drinking.
Um they started to boo and jeerus, and uh as we tried to walk
into the pub, we were elbowedand shoved.
(33:26):
Yeah, it was quite quite ahostile atmosphere.
People saying you're you'reextremists, you're gonna give us
a bad name.
Oh, really?
James (33:33):
So that's the that's the the set of people that were
comfortable to say, and justleave leave leave this alone,
don't lift up that rock.
You don't know what'sunderneath it.
Peter (33:41):
I remember one guy said, you know, we should keep our
heads down, to which I replied,if you keep your head down, you
get your head kicked in, uh, wehave to stand up, stick up for
ourselves.
Yeah.
Um we got into the pub, but wehad some sympathetic responses,
but mostly it was like, youknow, get out of here.
(34:02):
I'm I'm cruising, you know.
I've come here for a drink.
Yes.
Um and eventually we wererejected.
Wow.
By a combination of the barstaff and the some of the gay
men in the pub.
So that's what we were upagainst.
There was a whole strata ofLGBT plus society that had
(34:25):
internalized the homophobia.
They thought they weren'tequal.
They thought they deserved tobe treated as second class
because in their minds theywere.
They were flawed, imperfect,abnormal, unnatural, you know.
Everything that straightsociety put on us, a lot of
people in our community believedit.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Interesting.
James (34:48):
Um which is still a problem to some extent.
People people still feel gayshame in some sense, I think.
Um still have to come out everytime you meet a new set of
people or or start a new job oror whatever else.
There's still a lot ofdifferent processes that that
that you have to go to.
I think there is still a lot ofthat.
(35:10):
Come on, huge distance.
Yeah, you know, to your point,acorns turn into mighty oaks,
that's definitely where we'reat, but but there's still
there's still more to do.
Peter (35:20):
Yeah, I mean, that first march, there's probably about
700 people.
James (35:25):
Oh wow.
Peter (35:27):
Uh we assembled in Trafalgar Square and then
marched via Chandcross Road andOxford Street to uh Hyde Park.
What was extraordinary to mewas the vast number of police.
There was virtually a policeofficer for every marcher.
Wow.
And lots of lots on the sides,you know, side streets and
(35:48):
treading behind in vans and soon.
Um you definitely got thefeeling that they regarded us as
criminals, as dangerous peoplewho had to be watched.
And there may have been one ortwo exceptions, but the the body
language and the way the policespoke was aggressive, hostile,
(36:12):
unsympathetic.
James (36:13):
And that wouldn't have just been the police doing that
themselves.
That would have been aninstruction from government as
well.
So the government waspresumably part of the the the
the set of you know the thethought of what you were doing
as hostile.
Peter (36:26):
Yeah, I mean I can't say whether they got instructions
from up on high in thegovernment, but um their
demeanour reflected thedemeanour of the government,
yeah, of the day.
Um led by a closet gay man,Edward Heath, but one who
prevailed over homophobicsociety and did nothing to
(36:48):
change the laws.
Um The most memorable incidenton that uh march was we were
going up Oxford Street and I wascarrying a small sign, gay is
good, and off on the pavementwas a very elderly wizened old
woman in twin set and pearls,laden with shopping, and she was
(37:12):
on the edge of the pavement andshe peered over as I came up
and said, Oh, what's gay?
And I said, Oh, gay meanshomosexual.
And she shrugged her shouldersand said, Oh, oh, oh, good luck.
Good luck.
Things like that gave us hopethat you know things could
change.
But overall, I say on themarch, about a third of the
(37:36):
public were hostile, you know,shouting abuse, sometimes
throwing things at us.
Wow.
James (37:43):
Um is that gathered specifically to protest?
No.
Just have people that happenedto be there pass us by.
Peter (37:51):
Just happened to be there on the pavement, yeah.
Um, just, I suppose, confused,bewildered, disbelieving that
gay people would dare show theirfaces in public.
And just like these strangesort of open-mouth stares.
(38:11):
Um But then I'd say overall,probably about a third of the
people were actually supportive.
People gave thumbs up, clapped,said good on you, yeah.
Wow.
That gave us hope.
When we got to Hyde Park, um,of course, there was there was
no um, you know, corporatesponsorship or anything like
(38:32):
that.
It was DIY party games, so wewe everybody most people bought
food and drink and often alcoholand dope.
So we had a big what we calleda gay day, which is basically
open air picnic in Hyde Park, umplaying party games and like
spin the bottle, and you know.
And what was interesting, thepolice lined up on the side of
(38:56):
the park, um, going down ParkLane, quite a distance away.
There's probably about wellover a hundred of them, uh maybe
a bit more, but they were alllike you know, their their body
language, folded arms, scowlingfaces.
I mean, under normalcircumstances, if it was just
(39:17):
two or three of us, they wouldhave arrested us.
Yeah.
But because there were so many,I presume, they didn't dare.
So we got away with it.
And that taught us a lesson,you know, safety and numbers.
Yeah.
And don't don't think thepolice, you know, cannot be
stopped or cannot cannot be outfoxed.
James (39:37):
Yeah.
Jonathan (39:37):
And at the end of the day, as the crowds are
dispersing from Hyde Park, didyou have a moment to think, oh
God, we did this?
Peter (39:45):
Yeah, I think, you know, even halfway through we we we
thought, well, this is this issuccess.
Yeah.
It's not thousands, it's only700, but this is success.
This is a start.
And even before we got to HydePark, I think we were all
thinking, you know, we're gonnado this again next year.
Jonathan (40:03):
It was already it was already a fixture of the
calendar from then on.
Did you did you at a time thinkabout what it would turn into
today?
Was that was that did you dareto dream that big or we could
talk about whether it's good orbad, but this is the size of it?
Peter (40:18):
Uh no, we had no idea it would ever get as big as it
does.
Yeah, we we thought it wouldgrow and yeah, as I said, yeah,
the plan was to do it next yearand by implication the year
after.
Um as far as I know, that gaypride march in London was the
first in the world to callitself gay pride.
Jonathan (40:37):
I was gonna ask you that.
Because it was ChristopherStreet Liberation Day in the US
the following year.
Yeah.
So that's in Or in the pr inthe preceding year.
Sorry, the preceding year, yes,okay.
Peter (40:47):
Um in some cities it was called Queer Liberation Day or
Gay Liberation Day.
But I think we were the firstto actually call it Gay Pride,
yeah.
James (40:56):
Fantastic.
Peter (40:56):
And we call it Gay Pride, not LGBT plus pride or not just
pride, you know.
Yeah.
Because in back in those days,gay was encompassing.
Encompassing.
Jonathan (41:05):
Yeah.
The other famous GLF protestwas against the Festival of
Light.
Um and I would love to hear alittle bit about what that was,
your involvement in it.
Um I know that it was quite along, really well planned
protest and campaign thatinvolved infiltration and a
whole range of things.
So we would love to hear yourthoughts on that.
Peter (41:26):
Yeah, so in 1971, um the Festival of Light was set up by
morality campaigner MaryWhitehouse, with the support of
you know, well known Christianslike Malcolm Muggeridge, um
Cliff Richard, uh Bishop TrevorHowlston, and others.
(41:47):
Its agenda was primarily torecriminalize pornography, uh,
abortion, and homosexuality.
So they were against what theycalled the permissive society
and their goal was to roll backthe reforms of the 1960s.
So LGBTs were very much intheir sights.
(42:10):
Um we in the Gay LiberationFund hit on the idea of doing a
counter protest um at their mainlaunch event at Central Hall,
Westminster, you know, rightopposite Parliament and
Westminster Abbey.
Um so we codenamed it OperationRupert after the cartoon
(42:34):
character Rupert Baer in thesatirical underground magazine
Oz.
Um and we bought some a handfulof genuine tickets and then
forged hundreds of others usingthe the using the template.
Um and the idea was toinfiltrate a hundred plus people
(42:57):
into the meeting and then to doa series of protests uh during
the course of the meeting.
So disruption and um spoilingthe launch was the was the main
focus.
This involved varioussubgroups.
I was with the youth group,there's only about twenty yeah,
(43:20):
not nineteen at the time,nineteen at the time.
Um I was with the youth group.
Um and so at a certain pointduring proceedings the youth
group about we weren't theentire youth group, but those of
us who were who were there,there were probably about 10 of
us, stood up and same-sex kissedin the balcony.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Huh.
Peter (43:42):
Um and then that created mayhem, and then a little bit
later, um somebody further up inthe balcony, another section,
unfurled a big banner sayingCliff for Queen, having a go at
Cliff Richard.
Um, then down Below a group ofgay men in Nundrag started doing
(44:05):
the can started doing the cancan down the aisles.
Then later on there's anothergroup released mice into the
audience and you know peoplestarted screaming and running.
So it was it was all aroundMayhem.
James (44:18):
Were you thrown out after your after the after your
stunts, your your your part ofthe scene, did you get kicked
out by security or did youmanage to they they tried to,
but at a certain point wethought we made our point, so we
we left voluntarily.
Peter (44:32):
Oh fine, right.
James (44:33):
But there were too many different groups or they
couldn't tell who was actuallygenuinely there for the event
and who was you was there todisrupt it.
Jonathan (44:40):
Yeah.
And I think I told you this onthe phone, but I was at um
Central Hall uh a few months agoat the Up West End Awards, and
it was hosted by a drag queen.
And I thought, oh my gosh, howfar how far this building has
come?
Absolutely.
James (44:54):
What wait what what what I'm just I'm I'm just so curious
about this day, and I thinkthis this this this day of
protest in Central Hall justsounds so amazing.
What what happened afterwards?
Presumably you all had a kindof rendezvous point outside the
building, you knew that you weregonna get kicked out
eventually.
What was there an air ofjubilation afterwards?
Peter (45:10):
Oh yes.
Oh yeah, we felt that we'dspoiled, we'd rained on their
parade.
Yeah.
And you know, we would haveloved to have had a proper
dialogue, and we did havedialogue with some of the people
who came out afterwards, butmost of them are pretty
fanatical, you know.
Oh really.
Um and yeah, it was it was hardto have dialogue, but yeah, we
(45:32):
we did we did talk to some ofthe people, um, some quite a few
of us stayed outside as thecrowds came out and engaged with
people, and we got quite a lotof hostility, but there were
some people who did engage andyou know who feigned some
sympathy for your sympathy foryour plight.
Plight you you poor sicksinners.
Jonathan (45:54):
Yeah, we have sympathy for you.
Yeah.
And the GLF um burned reallybrightly, but not for a very
long time.
Can you tell us about how itdisbanded?
Peter (46:05):
Well, like any radical movement where there's no money,
no funds, no office, no staffsupport, it's sustained by
volunteers.
And that's great as long asvolunteers are around, but if
volunteers have to move to adifferent part of the country
because of their job or partneror whatever, there are lots of
(46:26):
different things that makemovements quite you know
unstable.
I think for the Gay LiberationFront, um one of the mistaken
decisions, in my view, was to sdevolve to groups uh that are
(46:48):
locally based.
So there was a South LondonGLF, a West London GLF, an East
London GLF, a North London GLF.
So that diffused the you know,critical mass that we had at the
weekly meetings in NottinghillGate.
That diffused them to thesefour other centres.
(47:08):
And in the process the energy,you know, was lost, I think.
And it meant that each of thesegroups had to do off their own
back what we collectively wereall doing as well, and which was
much, much easier.
Plus there was quite a bigissue over lesbians leaving GLF
(47:32):
feeling that some of the gay menwere misogynist and sexist and
were not addressing women'sissues.
James (47:42):
Was there some truth in that?
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Peter (47:45):
I mean it's not I don't think any any of the men in GLF
were overtly or deliberatelymisogynist, but they just had a
mindset that, you know, um lawreform or some other gay male
issue was more important and interms of numbers the meetings
(48:08):
were overwhelmingly male.
Right.
Not that women were excluded,but women felt in a minority.
And this is the time of the bigexplosion of the women's
liberation movement.
And a lot of lesbians, I think,understandably felt, well,
let's work through the women'sliberation movement.
James (48:27):
Is it is it something you regret perhaps that there
weren't more women involved, orthat that you and others didn't
do more to try to get more womento participate, and that that
led map maybe to some of thechallenges at the end, or or are
you is is it that's just theway it went and it would have
been hard to do thingsdifferently?
Peter (48:45):
Yeah, I think in that era or even today, it is a fact
that most organizations tend tobe male dominated.
Even if they don't intend tobe.
So that's a real problem forwomen, you know?
And I think GLF suffered fromthat.
And yeah, I I wish we'd donemore.
(49:05):
And there there was a group ofwomen who stayed within GLF who
didn't agree with the moreseparatist approach.
Uh and they they continued andstayed on and worked worked with
it within GLF.
And I think that they played avery important role.
Jonathan (49:23):
There weren't very many of them, but they played a
very important role.
And activism continuedthroughout the 1970s and into
the 1980s, and then the HIVepidemic came along.
Do you feel that the HIVepidemic changed the nature of
activism in the in in the queercommunities?
Peter (49:40):
Oh, absolutely.
What happened was a lot ofpeople shifted out of LGBT plus
activism into AIDS activism ortreatment support research
groups.
So you had a whole cater ofseasoned, very effective LGBT
(50:01):
plus campaigners who droppedthat button and took up the
button of fighting HIV and AIDS.
And that was necessary, but itleft the wider movement severely
depleted and diminished.
So I would say that the focusof the LGBT plus community in
(50:26):
terms of campaigning shifteddramatically from LGBT plus
issues into HIV and AIDS.
Jonathan (50:33):
And can you tell us a bit about your own AIDS activism
with the UK AIDS VigilOrganization?
Peter (50:38):
Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of freelance ad hoc HIV AIDS
campaigning in the from theearly 1980s.
Um getting together like-mindedgroups of people to do specific
actions um around demandingbetter government funding for
the Terran Seagans Trust.
(51:00):
You know, by the mid-1980s, theTerran Seagans Trust had
received, I think, only onegrant of £35,000 from the
Thatcher government.
Wow.
And it was the leadorganization for HIV education,
prevention, treatment, care andsupport.
£35,000.
So insulting, so typical of thegovernment's the Thatcher
(51:22):
government's disregard anddisrespect for our community.
So um yeah, so th th those aresome of the issues we we we
campaigned on.
Um then in the late 80s, 1987,I heard that the British
government was planning to hosta World Health Minister Summit
(51:46):
on AIDS in London in January1988.
So this was about a yearbeforehand.
So together with Phil Cox, whowas HIV positive and involved in
HIV campaigning, um, we set upthe UK AIDS Vigil Organization.
And our remit was to put humanrights front and center.
(52:08):
At that stage, the human rightsof people living with HIV and
AIDS was just not on the agenda,not an issue.
Um we wanted to make it anissue.
So we draft between the two ofus, we drafted what turned out
to be the world's first ever HIVAIDS human rights charter,
(52:30):
setting out how governments,organizations, and individuals
should treat people living withHIV and AIDS.
And then we organized on theeve of the World Health
Ministers Summit, a hugecandlelit march from Hyde Park
to the Queen Elizabeth IIConference Centre where the
(52:53):
health ministers were going tobe meeting.
Um it was just it was just somagnificent.
The whole of Whitehall, fromTrafalgar Square to Parliament
Square, was just a sea ofcandles.
An extraordinarily beautifulsite.
Um and then we rallied and hadspeeches outside the QE2 centre
(53:14):
um calling on the healthministers to put combating
discrimination on the agenda.
It wasn't on the agenda.
We said this has got to be onthe agenda.
And then on the opening day ofthe conference, we held a
parallel AIDS and human rightsconference uh right next door in
Central Hall Westminster.
Oh wow.
(53:34):
Um where Derek Jarman came outas being HIV positive, and many
people from organizations likeBody Positive, uh Frontliners,
Terrorists Trust, uh LondonLighthouse and others spoke.
So we really set the agendathrough the march and the
(53:56):
conference that there had to bethe issue of human rights
addressed.
Um we weren't convinced we madeit.
So what I did was um theleft-wing Labour newspaper
tribune gave me a journalistpass.
So on the closing day of theconference, uh I went as a
(54:18):
journalist and then midway inthe afternoon um got off of my
seat, strode to the front, anddemanded that they issue a
statement opposingdiscrimination.
And so I was just saying that,you know, one of the unintended
consequences what of of of HIVand AIDS was a huge increase in
(54:41):
prejudice, monstrousism,discrimination, and hate crime.
And we have to address that.
You know, you cannot fight thisvirus by demonizing people.
And there were calls in thosein those days, even by
politicians in this country, toround up all gay people or all
people with HIV and put them inquarantine camps.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Yeah.
Peter (55:02):
Um so uh that made quite a bit of an impact.
And but they gave me a you knowprobably three or four minutes
to speak.
Oh wow.
Um, but the upshot was at theend they did issue a statement
condemning discrimination,saying that, you know, people
with HIV must be treated withrespect and the the focus must
(55:24):
be on education and support.
Wow.
So that was I know it was justwords, but at least it was
there.
Yeah, yeah.
And it gave activists all overthe world a template, a
reference point, uh, uh adocument they could cite in
support of their own work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The starting point of the case.
And that that was that was thethat was the whole idea was to
(55:46):
get that World Health MedicineConference to make a statement
like that so it could be used byactivists all over the world to
hold their governments toaccount.
You were there, you were atthis conference, you signed the
declaration, it's got thisclause about
anti-discrimination, we expectyou to honour it.
Amazing.
That was incredibly useful.
Didn't always work.
No, of course, but it gave ahuge uh you know, it it gave
(56:10):
something that could be citedand used by activists.
Yeah.
James (56:13):
That kind of almost global recognition that that's
this is part of what we'retrying to do.
Yeah.
So powerful.
And so extraordinary to havebut again, just like how brave
you were just to brazenly chargeup to the lecture and just say,
guys, this is what I want youto do.
And like I'm I'm I'm in so muchawe at the every opportunity
(56:34):
you've had to jump in to dosomething to to go the extra
mile you've taken him.
Peter (56:39):
Oh, I don't think it was bray, but it I mean I've been
incredibly nervous.
With all these things, it'spart nerves is partly about will
will I be stopped before I getto do it.
Yeah.
Will security grab me and thewhole thing or plan will go to
pieces?
Or will I will I express whatneed what needs to be expressed
adequately?
Well I will I will I say whatneeds to be said, um, and then
(57:02):
of course, will it have anyimpact?
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Yeah.
Jonathan (57:11):
Thank you for listening to the view from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.
James (57:22):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.
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