December 3, 2025 • 19 mins
Ambition can build bridges or burn them—so how do you keep the fire without scorching your team or your relationships? We dive into the Initiator, a personality expression defined by dynamic masculine energy: goal-first, action-forward, and relentlessly independent. Think founders, crisis leaders, and the people who move when everyone else hesitates. We unpack the real strengths—decisiveness, clarity, and momentum—alongside the predictable blind spots: shallow listening, impatience with process, and a tendency to miss relational cues until it’s too late.
Across the conversation, we map clear signals of Initiator energy and explain why others often “ride the wake” of strong leaders, outsourcing risk and then resenting the outcome. We get honest about projection—how teams and communities crown Initiators as heroes, then flip them into villains when reality fails to match fantasy. You’ll hear practical ways to avoid the bait, hold boundaries with both praise and criticism. If you’ve ever wondered why people stop “hearing” you when you push hard, or why applause can turn to anger overnight, this breakdown will help you read the room and adjust without losing momentum.
We also talk about reclaiming agency if you’re not a natural Initiator. Instead of latching onto someone else’s drive, learn to spark your own small acts of initiation—send the draft, start the hobby, set the micro‑goal—so you build courage and reduce dependency. And for Initiators trying to grow, we share simple listening tactics that don’t stall the project. The result is sustainable leadership, teams that feel heard, and relationships that don’t get sacrificed for the next win.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who leads hard and loves harder, and leave a review so more listeners can find us.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I am your co-host, D.
Kelly, and I'm here with JimShaley, and we love spending
some time talking about thosethings that take us toward the
inner journey to give us alittle bit more clarity and
self-awareness and freedom inour living.
And this particular week, we aretalking about a particular
personality style.
(00:34):
For those of you who have beenfollowing along, you'll know
that we've looked at a Jungianmodel of personality styles and
looked at the four majorquadrants that divide themselves
up between masculine andfeminine expressions and static
and dynamic energies.
(00:56):
And this particular week, we arelooking at the initiator, which
is a dynamic masculine energy.
We have referred to thispersonality style many times and
given some characteristics inthe past, we're going to go a
little bit deeper, try and giveyou some examples and see how it
might display itself in yourlife, even if this isn't a
(01:17):
primary style for you.
If it is a primary style ofyours, we hope you recognize
yourself in the midst of it andgain some insight as to how to
use it to great advantage andthe cautions that go along with
having this style if it's notbalanced.
So we're going to spend a littletime in that.
Jim, welcome.
I'm glad you're here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Thank you, Dee.
Along with that, it isinteresting that if you're a
natural initiator, to sit stilland listen to a podcast may be
challenging because you'reyou're out initiating things.
Even though if someone suggestsa good podcast, an initiator
probably, if they're intriguedby it, would listen to it.
Would they listen to it all theway through?
(01:59):
I don't know.
Because initiators, they love tokeep moving, moving forward and
setting goals and accomplishingthings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
So if they are driven by objectives and goals,
maybe we ought to frontload thispodcast with things they can
accomplish and do to bring aboutthe change they want to bring
about.
SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
Absolutely.
If you listen to this podcast,your relationship will be a 100%
turnaround and it'll be greatfor an initiator.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Yeah.
Jim, one of the aspects of yourwork over the decades that
you've done this, you've beeninvited into several settings to
work with people who areinitiators, people who are in
charge of companies.
Sometimes in the healthprofession, there are particular
individuals that carry a lot ofthat initiating energy.
(02:48):
So give us a couple of examplesof what you notice in somebody
that gives you the clue thatthis is probably their dominant
personality style.
That's a great question.
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Usually they're encouraged by family or
co-workers that they respect toexamine some of the reasons as
to why people aren't listeningto them anymore.
Oh.
Of because usually they've theykeep moving forward so much so
(03:25):
and they set goals that they'reso focused on that that
listening to other people'sfeedback can be challenging
because they so uh they are somovement-oriented that if they
have a direction and they're ina role of leadership, oftentimes
their blind spot is truly, and Isay truly in quotes, really
(03:46):
listening to feedback fromothers around them.
They sometimes will give lipservice and they'll they'll ask
great questions, but it's almostlike they're going through the
motions, letting people expresstheir opinions, but they've
already got their mind set.
So in that context, usually,obviously in the relationship,
they aren't listening very wellat home.
(04:07):
They're they're goal-driven, soof course, maybe accomplishing
things like buying a new houseor a car or things like that,
they're very good at.
But sitting and listening totheir kids or their wife or
their partner, that's alwaysmore challenging.
So e either of those scenarios,typically it means that I
figured some things out, and ifthe group would just go along
(04:28):
with me, we'd be we'd be okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
So then it's probably fair to say that with
an initiator, they're probablygood at seeing and responding to
a crisis that's in the workplaceor in a project because they can
kind of envision the directionthey want to go quickly, but
they are maybe the last tonotice a crisis in a
relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Oh, yeah, I would definitely say that.
Yeah.
And that's again, that's why ifyou're in an emergency situation
situation, that personality typewill always show up because they
just naturally think they knowand oftentimes do know exactly
the things that need to happen.
Uh but yes, they're also thelast one to know that you've
(05:14):
offended all these peoplebecause they would say, I don't
I don't care that I offendedthese people.
We needed to get the job done.
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
We need to move forward, we need to complete the
project.
SPEAKER_02 (05:23):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
That becomes the most importantpart of it.
So of course they minimize theimpact it has on others because
that's not significant to them.
And I as we talked about inother in other podcasts, they're
typically in relationship intheir personal lives with a
responder, someone who to theextreme enables that personality
type to keep functioning becausethey take care of things.
(05:44):
And it's the and it's easy torely on them in that sense.
But when it comes torelationships, that's where they
obviously have blind spots.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
So give us a list of some adjectives that
characterize an initiator sothat initiator might be able to
see it in himself or herself.
Or if I'm in a relationship witha person that would give me a
clue that this is somebody who'sa relationship.
You g you gave us that they werevery goal-driven,
(06:13):
problem-solved.
Sorry, but what are some of theother characteristics that might
be labeled that way?
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, I think there are the the
basic expression is back to isgoal-oriented that accomplishes
goals.
So that's the basic kind ofexpression.
The primary task of thatpersonality is to differentiate
differentiate themselves fromthe group and and to really be
more individualistic driven.
That's why they don't focus onthe relational dynamic.
They're just simply uh this iswhat I need to this is what
(06:41):
needs to happen.
And so they're they initiate,they they to use a kind of a
strong word, they they conquerthings.
They go into something wantingto accomplish and conquer and
and on some level bring order tothings, which is the other side
of it as far as a stabilizer inthe masculine energy.
(07:02):
But on the surface, it has to ithas to set a goal and accomplish
that first before it canoftentimes they have a hard time
staying in place because theysee the next goal to accomplish.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And uh conquering isn't just conquering people,
it's conquering problems,conquering challenges.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
Where people feel yeah.
Colonialism or any of thosethings has that has that tenet
to it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
You used another phrase that I just want to ask
about.
You said that there is a driveto differentiate from the group.
Is that just another way ofsaying that they are extremely
competitive?
Yes.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
And again, it's like, you know, the the the
classic example in our historyas a as a nation are those
individuals that saw the West asa as an opening to go conquer.
And so they would have theirfamilies and but they had a
dream of they wanted to go west,you know, go west, young man, go
west.
And so with that individualfocus, there are other lots of
(08:11):
other people that will followthat initiating energy because
they see something no one elsesees and they have the courage
to go after it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
And and one of the ways you could maybe highlight
in somebody that this isn'ttheir dominant style, to ask the
question, do you enjoy when youwin?
And if the answer is yes, thatthere is a tinge of initiator in
you that you like that feelingof winning.
Absolutely.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Even though you may not be bynature an initiator, you can
(08:42):
appreciate how somebody has thatfeeling maybe to more of an
extreme.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
And back to our belief that these expressions
are in all of us.
And so to your point, if I canidentify just a small way in
which I initiated something andI and I had the feeling of
winning or competing orwhatever, that then you can say,
you see, it's it's in there.
It may not be natural, but whathow can we bring that out?
(09:09):
And to your point earlier, it'slike that's this is the
expression that creates change.
Because it can be, you canexpress something, you can
explain something to someone,but until they get a real sense
that they have to have movementin a direction that could feel
pretty selfish to make thechange.
Well, I I I can't do that.
That will what would otherpeople think, or how would they
(09:30):
feel?
Well, that expression doesn'tcare about that.
So you'd have to really workhard at wanting the goal so much
so that you would have to youwould be able to block some of
the other expressions to be ableto accomplish the change that
you want.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
That's an interesting example or situation
that you just described whereyou want something in life, but
you find it incredibly difficultto pay the price of what people
might think.
And so you become stuck and youcan't figure out why there's no
movement.
And you have that initiatorwithin you, but it is squelched
(10:08):
by that people-pleasing sli sideor the difference.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is it is interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Again, that's but again, that's why so many people
my expression would be they givetheir power away to that
individual because they willstrike out on their own and do
some things that the otherperson other personalities don't
want to do, but they will attachto them.
And that's the the delicate partof that is I can follow an
initiator someplace, but if theyif it doesn't turn out like I
(10:40):
think it should, then I canstart criticizing the initiator
and then become a malcontent andyou know be upset by them.
But I didn't have the courage todo it on my own.
I'm using their energy, whichagain, back to the overall
expression of what we're talkingabout.
It's so common to use someoneelse's energy that I have inside
(11:00):
of me but I don't want toacknowledge to accomplish tasks
or to to uh to do things that Imay not may think I want to do,
but don't have the courage to doit.
That's that's why I'm sayinginternalizing all these
expressions is so profoundbecause I really can accomplish
the things that I want toaccomplish and not have to rely
on somebody else's energy.
(11:21):
I don't know if I said that asclearly as I intended, but
that's that that's I loved that,Jim.
That's the value of all of thisfrom my perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Yeah.
We are just a heads up forlisteners, we'll be talking a
little bit more in depth onprojections in a future episode.
But we project onto initiatorsboth the good and the bad.
We project the hero image ontothem when they are doing things
that bring about what I'm hopingwants to be accomplished.
(11:51):
And then I also project thevillain on them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
And then I can blame others for I can blame others
that it didn't go well.
Yeah.
Rather than rather than nottaking not taking accountability
for the wait a minute, I didn'twant to go do this, but I did
it, and it didn't turn out likeI thought.
Well, okay.
You want all the con all thepower without the
responsibility.
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I don't know this has everbeen looked at in terms of
research or statistics, but itjust occurs to me that those who
are true initiators probablycarry far more projections than
any other characteristicpersonality style.
SPEAKER_02 (12:35):
Yeah, I'll never forget the election of President
Obama when he was standing thereat this one scenario.
I s I remember thinking there'sso much projection on him that
we were so hopeful of somethingthat's going to happen.
And that had to be such a heavyburden because it's it you do.
I mean, on some level you maywant it, but man, it it can turn
(12:56):
on you so quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
And it did.
It did.
I mean, it carried the oppositeprojection that neither one of
which were his responsibility byAbsolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
Yeah.
And I think that's why it's soimportant for our leaders and
all of us to have some sense ofthat, of knowing when we're
carrying a projection or when weare projecting ourselves.
And that's accountability.
It's like it's like the balanceis between compassion and
accountability.
If you have too much compassion,it's it's it's too extreme.
If you have too muchaccountability, it's
(13:27):
dictatorial.
So what's that balance looklike?
And I think that's what we'restriving for internally, and
each individual's that balance.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
And the thought, just because I had trained
myself for my own survival, tolisten with this sense of, oh,
I'm just the projection screenright now.
This person is dumping all overme.
I'm the villain.
I am the embodiment ofeverything that they don't know
what to do with inwardly.
(14:06):
And it changes your ability toreceive it.
I mean, I I I can you can set aboundary and say, yeah, this
isn't about me, which sometimesis very appropriate.
There are other times where youjust nod your head and hope that
they feel good about unloadingand say, great meeting.
It's so true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
But so because what they're unconsciously trying to
do is to bait you into being theopposite.
So they can so they can defeatyou, so they can argue with you.
And if you don't argue, it'slike it's it's like through the
election cycles in therapy, it'sbeen so interesting as people
come in and they'll projecttheir anger and frustration, and
they they're frustrated on somelevel because they never know
(14:47):
what I think, which is how it'ssupposed to be.
But they'll say, What do youreally think?
And I go, Well, I don't I don'thave any thoughts right now
about this, but you do, socontinue.
And yeah, you're right.
They'll feel better at the endof the session on some level
because they've vented it.
But some of them will get sofrustrated because they'll keep
projecting.
I know what you think.
I know you're thinking this.
And I go, no, I'm really not.
(15:09):
They want somebody to really bethe opposite because they, in my
opinion, unconsciously want tobe more balanced.
Uh-huh.
But they also make it reallyhard to have that conversation
because they're so certain andaggressive.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
It is interesting, though, that they want to be in
balance, but they are trying toaccomplish that externally
instead of internally.
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Aaron Powell Absolut.
Which is the whole thing we'retalking about.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In contrast, I I mentionedsometimes being the one that is
the villain.
You have to also have thediscipline when somebody comes
in and does overt praise on youand go, yeah, this it's nice to
hear, but it's not really aboutme.
It's so true.
It's like that's equally hard.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
Yeah, it is.
I mean, that's why I used to sayworking in some nonprofits, that
those that praise you the mostare the first to turn on you.
Because they both project.
You're gonna say you're gonnasave this, and then when you
don't, or you don't save it theway they want you to, then
they're the first to criticize.
And again, that's allprojection.
Yeah.
(16:16):
And it's a lot of people.
It's a fascinating trait.
I mean, it really is.
If you think about it and you'reyou're self-aware at all, you'll
see so much that takes place ofI don't want to take
responsibility for this, butI'll I'll tell you to, and then
I'll criticize you if you don'tdo it the way I want you to do.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
When you raise your own internal self-awareness,
which is part of what we'retrying to bring about in this
podcast and in ourconversations, you're able to
walk through life with a littlebit less roller coaster ride of
what other people think and toreceive people as being on their
own journey and respecting thatthey they have a lot to learn
(16:59):
just like you do.
And it it changes your abilityto engage people that others
have a tough time engagingbecause you know it's not about
you in terms of their journey.
So the initiator, there is thisgreat energy that they bring.
We've mentioned in previousepisodes that a lot of people
(17:19):
ride the wake of the energy, thethe wake they leave behind them,
like a boat that leaves waves.
They they can others can ridethose waves or attach a ski rope
and be pulled along by thatindividual.
And again, it's we describe itas a masculine dynamic energy,
(17:40):
but it is not male or female.
There are both men and womenthat contain this energy that is
so strong and potent, and it isa moving force within the world
that gets things done.
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
Absolutely.
I mean, uh again, that's whyback to your point I made
earlier, to try to try toidentify it in each of us, it's
as simple as a hobby.
I mean, someone who all of asudden has a need to woodwork,
where'd that come from?
That's initiating energy.
Uh, it brings some fulfillment,but they also have to start a
project or they have to have anidea of what they want to make.
(18:15):
That's all initiating energy.
It's it's an individualisticdriven kind of thing.
I would do this regardless ofwhat anybody else is going to
do.
That's that's it initiatingenergy.
I see something I want to do, Idon't care what people think,
I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
(19:03):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I am your co-host, D.
Kelly, and I'm here with JimShaley, and we love spending
some time talking about thosethings that take us toward the
inner journey to give us alittle bit more clarity and
self-awareness and freedom inour living.
And this particular week, we aretalking about a particular
personality style.
(00:34):
For those of you who have beenfollowing along, you'll know
that we've looked at a Jungianmodel of personality styles and
looked at the four majorquadrants that divide themselves
up between masculine andfeminine expressions and static
and dynamic energies.
(00:56):
And this particular week, we arelooking at the initiator, which
is a dynamic masculine energy.
We have referred to thispersonality style many times and
given some characteristics inthe past, we're going to go a
little bit deeper, try and giveyou some examples and see how it
might display itself in yourlife, even if this isn't a
(01:17):
primary style for you.
If it is a primary style ofyours, we hope you recognize
yourself in the midst of it andgain some insight as to how to
use it to great advantage andthe cautions that go along with
having this style if it's notbalanced.
So we're going to spend a littletime in that.
Jim, welcome.
I'm glad you're here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Thank you, Dee.
Along with that, it isinteresting that if you're a
natural initiator, to sit stilland listen to a podcast may be
challenging because you'reyou're out initiating things.
Even though if someone suggestsa good podcast, an initiator
probably, if they're intriguedby it, would listen to it.
Would they listen to it all theway through?
(01:59):
I don't know.
Because initiators, they love tokeep moving, moving forward and
setting goals and accomplishingthings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
So if they are driven by objectives and goals,
maybe we ought to frontload thispodcast with things they can
accomplish and do to bring aboutthe change they want to bring
about.
SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
Absolutely.
If you listen to this podcast,your relationship will be a 100%
turnaround and it'll be greatfor an initiator.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Yeah.
Jim, one of the aspects of yourwork over the decades that
you've done this, you've beeninvited into several settings to
work with people who areinitiators, people who are in
charge of companies.
Sometimes in the healthprofession, there are particular
individuals that carry a lot ofthat initiating energy.
(02:48):
So give us a couple of examplesof what you notice in somebody
that gives you the clue thatthis is probably their dominant
personality style.
That's a great question.
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Usually they're encouraged by family or
co-workers that they respect toexamine some of the reasons as
to why people aren't listeningto them anymore.
Oh.
Of because usually they've theykeep moving forward so much so
(03:25):
and they set goals that they'reso focused on that that
listening to other people'sfeedback can be challenging
because they so uh they are somovement-oriented that if they
have a direction and they're ina role of leadership, oftentimes
their blind spot is truly, and Isay truly in quotes, really
(03:46):
listening to feedback fromothers around them.
They sometimes will give lipservice and they'll they'll ask
great questions, but it's almostlike they're going through the
motions, letting people expresstheir opinions, but they've
already got their mind set.
So in that context, usually,obviously in the relationship,
they aren't listening very wellat home.
(04:07):
They're they're goal-driven, soof course, maybe accomplishing
things like buying a new houseor a car or things like that,
they're very good at.
But sitting and listening totheir kids or their wife or
their partner, that's alwaysmore challenging.
So e either of those scenarios,typically it means that I
figured some things out, and ifthe group would just go along
(04:28):
with me, we'd be we'd be okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
So then it's probably fair to say that with
an initiator, they're probablygood at seeing and responding to
a crisis that's in the workplaceor in a project because they can
kind of envision the directionthey want to go quickly, but
they are maybe the last tonotice a crisis in a
relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Oh, yeah, I would definitely say that.
Yeah.
And that's again, that's why ifyou're in an emergency situation
situation, that personality typewill always show up because they
just naturally think they knowand oftentimes do know exactly
the things that need to happen.
Uh but yes, they're also thelast one to know that you've
(05:14):
offended all these peoplebecause they would say, I don't
I don't care that I offendedthese people.
We needed to get the job done.
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
We need to move forward, we need to complete the
project.
SPEAKER_02 (05:23):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
That becomes the most importantpart of it.
So of course they minimize theimpact it has on others because
that's not significant to them.
And I as we talked about inother in other podcasts, they're
typically in relationship intheir personal lives with a
responder, someone who to theextreme enables that personality
type to keep functioning becausethey take care of things.
(05:44):
And it's the and it's easy torely on them in that sense.
But when it comes torelationships, that's where they
obviously have blind spots.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
So give us a list of some adjectives that
characterize an initiator sothat initiator might be able to
see it in himself or herself.
Or if I'm in a relationship witha person that would give me a
clue that this is somebody who'sa relationship.
You g you gave us that they werevery goal-driven,
(06:13):
problem-solved.
Sorry, but what are some of theother characteristics that might
be labeled that way?
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, I think there are the the
basic expression is back to isgoal-oriented that accomplishes
goals.
So that's the basic kind ofexpression.
The primary task of thatpersonality is to differentiate
differentiate themselves fromthe group and and to really be
more individualistic driven.
That's why they don't focus onthe relational dynamic.
They're just simply uh this iswhat I need to this is what
(06:41):
needs to happen.
And so they're they initiate,they they to use a kind of a
strong word, they they conquerthings.
They go into something wantingto accomplish and conquer and
and on some level bring order tothings, which is the other side
of it as far as a stabilizer inthe masculine energy.
(07:02):
But on the surface, it has to ithas to set a goal and accomplish
that first before it canoftentimes they have a hard time
staying in place because theysee the next goal to accomplish.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And uh conquering isn't just conquering people,
it's conquering problems,conquering challenges.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
Where people feel yeah.
Colonialism or any of thosethings has that has that tenet
to it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
You used another phrase that I just want to ask
about.
You said that there is a driveto differentiate from the group.
Is that just another way ofsaying that they are extremely
competitive?
Yes.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
And again, it's like, you know, the the the
classic example in our historyas a as a nation are those
individuals that saw the West asa as an opening to go conquer.
And so they would have theirfamilies and but they had a
dream of they wanted to go west,you know, go west, young man, go
west.
And so with that individualfocus, there are other lots of
(08:11):
other people that will followthat initiating energy because
they see something no one elsesees and they have the courage
to go after it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
And and one of the ways you could maybe highlight
in somebody that this isn'ttheir dominant style, to ask the
question, do you enjoy when youwin?
And if the answer is yes, thatthere is a tinge of initiator in
you that you like that feelingof winning.
Absolutely.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Even though you may not be bynature an initiator, you can
(08:42):
appreciate how somebody has thatfeeling maybe to more of an
extreme.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
And back to our belief that these expressions
are in all of us.
And so to your point, if I canidentify just a small way in
which I initiated something andI and I had the feeling of
winning or competing orwhatever, that then you can say,
you see, it's it's in there.
It may not be natural, but whathow can we bring that out?
(09:09):
And to your point earlier, it'slike that's this is the
expression that creates change.
Because it can be, you canexpress something, you can
explain something to someone,but until they get a real sense
that they have to have movementin a direction that could feel
pretty selfish to make thechange.
Well, I I I can't do that.
That will what would otherpeople think, or how would they
(09:30):
feel?
Well, that expression doesn'tcare about that.
So you'd have to really workhard at wanting the goal so much
so that you would have to youwould be able to block some of
the other expressions to be ableto accomplish the change that
you want.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
That's an interesting example or situation
that you just described whereyou want something in life, but
you find it incredibly difficultto pay the price of what people
might think.
And so you become stuck and youcan't figure out why there's no
movement.
And you have that initiatorwithin you, but it is squelched
(10:08):
by that people-pleasing sli sideor the difference.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is it is interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Again, that's but again, that's why so many people
my expression would be they givetheir power away to that
individual because they willstrike out on their own and do
some things that the otherperson other personalities don't
want to do, but they will attachto them.
And that's the the delicate partof that is I can follow an
initiator someplace, but if theyif it doesn't turn out like I
(10:40):
think it should, then I canstart criticizing the initiator
and then become a malcontent andyou know be upset by them.
But I didn't have the courage todo it on my own.
I'm using their energy, whichagain, back to the overall
expression of what we're talkingabout.
It's so common to use someoneelse's energy that I have inside
(11:00):
of me but I don't want toacknowledge to accomplish tasks
or to to uh to do things that Imay not may think I want to do,
but don't have the courage to doit.
That's that's why I'm sayinginternalizing all these
expressions is so profoundbecause I really can accomplish
the things that I want toaccomplish and not have to rely
on somebody else's energy.
(11:21):
I don't know if I said that asclearly as I intended, but
that's that that's I loved that,Jim.
That's the value of all of thisfrom my perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Yeah.
We are just a heads up forlisteners, we'll be talking a
little bit more in depth onprojections in a future episode.
But we project onto initiatorsboth the good and the bad.
We project the hero image ontothem when they are doing things
that bring about what I'm hopingwants to be accomplished.
(11:51):
And then I also project thevillain on them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
And then I can blame others for I can blame others
that it didn't go well.
Yeah.
Rather than rather than nottaking not taking accountability
for the wait a minute, I didn'twant to go do this, but I did
it, and it didn't turn out likeI thought.
Well, okay.
You want all the con all thepower without the
responsibility.
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I don't know this has everbeen looked at in terms of
research or statistics, but itjust occurs to me that those who
are true initiators probablycarry far more projections than
any other characteristicpersonality style.
SPEAKER_02 (12:35):
Yeah, I'll never forget the election of President
Obama when he was standing thereat this one scenario.
I s I remember thinking there'sso much projection on him that
we were so hopeful of somethingthat's going to happen.
And that had to be such a heavyburden because it's it you do.
I mean, on some level you maywant it, but man, it it can turn
(12:56):
on you so quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
And it did.
It did.
I mean, it carried the oppositeprojection that neither one of
which were his responsibility byAbsolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
Yeah.
And I think that's why it's soimportant for our leaders and
all of us to have some sense ofthat, of knowing when we're
carrying a projection or when weare projecting ourselves.
And that's accountability.
It's like it's like the balanceis between compassion and
accountability.
If you have too much compassion,it's it's it's too extreme.
If you have too muchaccountability, it's
(13:27):
dictatorial.
So what's that balance looklike?
And I think that's what we'restriving for internally, and
each individual's that balance.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
And the thought, just because I had trained
myself for my own survival, tolisten with this sense of, oh,
I'm just the projection screenright now.
This person is dumping all overme.
I'm the villain.
I am the embodiment ofeverything that they don't know
what to do with inwardly.
(14:06):
And it changes your ability toreceive it.
I mean, I I I can you can set aboundary and say, yeah, this
isn't about me, which sometimesis very appropriate.
There are other times where youjust nod your head and hope that
they feel good about unloadingand say, great meeting.
It's so true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
But so because what they're unconsciously trying to
do is to bait you into being theopposite.
So they can so they can defeatyou, so they can argue with you.
And if you don't argue, it'slike it's it's like through the
election cycles in therapy, it'sbeen so interesting as people
come in and they'll projecttheir anger and frustration, and
they they're frustrated on somelevel because they never know
(14:47):
what I think, which is how it'ssupposed to be.
But they'll say, What do youreally think?
And I go, Well, I don't I don'thave any thoughts right now
about this, but you do, socontinue.
And yeah, you're right.
They'll feel better at the endof the session on some level
because they've vented it.
But some of them will get sofrustrated because they'll keep
projecting.
I know what you think.
I know you're thinking this.
And I go, no, I'm really not.
(15:09):
They want somebody to really bethe opposite because they, in my
opinion, unconsciously want tobe more balanced.
Uh-huh.
But they also make it reallyhard to have that conversation
because they're so certain andaggressive.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
It is interesting, though, that they want to be in
balance, but they are trying toaccomplish that externally
instead of internally.
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Aaron Powell Absolut.
Which is the whole thing we'retalking about.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In contrast, I I mentionedsometimes being the one that is
the villain.
You have to also have thediscipline when somebody comes
in and does overt praise on youand go, yeah, this it's nice to
hear, but it's not really aboutme.
It's so true.
It's like that's equally hard.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
Yeah, it is.
I mean, that's why I used to sayworking in some nonprofits, that
those that praise you the mostare the first to turn on you.
Because they both project.
You're gonna say you're gonnasave this, and then when you
don't, or you don't save it theway they want you to, then
they're the first to criticize.
And again, that's allprojection.
Yeah.
(16:16):
And it's a lot of people.
It's a fascinating trait.
I mean, it really is.
If you think about it and you'reyou're self-aware at all, you'll
see so much that takes place ofI don't want to take
responsibility for this, butI'll I'll tell you to, and then
I'll criticize you if you don'tdo it the way I want you to do.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
When you raise your own internal self-awareness,
which is part of what we'retrying to bring about in this
podcast and in ourconversations, you're able to
walk through life with a littlebit less roller coaster ride of
what other people think and toreceive people as being on their
own journey and respecting thatthey they have a lot to learn
(16:59):
just like you do.
And it it changes your abilityto engage people that others
have a tough time engagingbecause you know it's not about
you in terms of their journey.
So the initiator, there is thisgreat energy that they bring.
We've mentioned in previousepisodes that a lot of people
(17:19):
ride the wake of the energy, thethe wake they leave behind them,
like a boat that leaves waves.
They they can others can ridethose waves or attach a ski rope
and be pulled along by thatindividual.
And again, it's we describe itas a masculine dynamic energy,
(17:40):
but it is not male or female.
There are both men and womenthat contain this energy that is
so strong and potent, and it isa moving force within the world
that gets things done.
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
Absolutely.
I mean, uh again, that's whyback to your point I made
earlier, to try to try toidentify it in each of us, it's
as simple as a hobby.
I mean, someone who all of asudden has a need to woodwork,
where'd that come from?
That's initiating energy.
Uh, it brings some fulfillment,but they also have to start a
project or they have to have anidea of what they want to make.
(18:15):
That's all initiating energy.
It's it's an individualisticdriven kind of thing.
I would do this regardless ofwhat anybody else is going to
do.
That's that's it initiatingenergy.
I see something I want to do, Idon't care what people think,
I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
(19:03):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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