December 10, 2025 • 24 mins
A single line sparked the conversation: the life you want is on the other side of the work you’re avoiding. From that starting point, we unpack what actually turns insight into movement and why so many smart plans stall before they start. We talk candidly about initiating energy—the force that begins things—and how non‑initiators can find it without trying to become someone they’re not, while initiators learn to temper speed with care so progress doesn’t cost connection.
We get practical about fear, procrastination, and the inner monologue that either blocks or enables action. You’ll hear how to locate past moments of initiation and reuse that feeling, why accountability matters more than another goal sheet, and how to balance compassion with structure so your emotions inform your choices without running them. We explore the common dynamic where logic wins the argument but loses the relationship, the power of listening without fixing, and the value of inviting honest feedback—complete with a “court jester” who can safely tell you where you’re veering off track.
For leaders and high‑drive personalities, we spotlight early signals of burnout, the trap of turning self‑care into a to‑do list, and the discipline of tuning into the body as data. We also examine the shadow side of relentless initiation—control, isolation, and missed human moments—alongside its world‑shaping potential, from innovation to cultural breakthroughs. The real project is integration: blending initiator, responder, stabilizer, and transformer energies so you can finish what matters, release what doesn’t, and move forward with integrity.
If this conversation helps you see your next step, share it with a friend, subscribe for more, and leave a quick review to tell us what you’ll start—or stop—this week.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm D.
Kelly, and I'm here with myco-host, Jim Shaley.
I heard a s statement the otherday, one of those cute quips
that make you think.
This one stuck with me a littlebit longer.
The line is the life you want ison the other side of the work
you are avoiding.
(00:33):
I kind of look at initiatorsthat don't have as many
obstacles.
They push past there's not muchthey avoid when they are
determined to go after a goal.
Absolutely.
Yep, absolutely sure.
All of those who are strugglingto find initiating energy find
all kinds of things to avoid thework that will get them to that
(00:53):
life they want.
And so it becomes really crucialfor us to understand the
initiator, not that we want thatto that we're trying to make
that our default, but to accessthat energy within and push back
what we avoid to do the thingsthat will get us where we want
to be.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Yeah.
And again, the the classic thingis, you know, you hire an
executive coach, they'll almostalways set goals.
Well, if I'm any of the otherexpressions, that's a great
idea.
But if I don't act if I don'taccess, if I don't access the
initiating energy, it's like,okay.
(01:36):
And a lot of people will setgoals and they'll never look at
those goals again.
But they will feel like they'vemade some movement because
they've established a goal.
That's why lots of times you'llsee action steps, because there
has to be action steps toimplement the goal.
But again, if I'm not a naturalinitiator, I'm gonna hope
somebody else helps me do it, orI'm gonna it's just frustrating
(01:56):
because then I've set all thesegoals, but I never do them, and
then you end up getting morediscouraged because again, the
accountability for people thatdon't have natural initiating
energy is crucial for themovement or nothing changes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Yeah.
I think the non-initiators, manyof us are thrilled with are
thrilled when somebody presentsa workbook where you can fill in
the blanks.
What are my five goals?
What are the four acts and soand then how am I going to make
them smart goals and how arethey measurable?
(02:30):
And when you've done all that,you've put together this great
little journal or notebook, yougo, see, I did it.
Well, nothing.
You've not done anything.
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
That's why I say insight doesn't create change.
There has to be movement.
And that's again, that's thehardest.
It'd be interesting to know, butit it probably is for the
non-initiating types, it'sprobably the hardest expression
to really, really implement.
Yeah.
And yet is the core it's thecore of all change from that
perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
So hang in their initiators.
We're talking aboutnon-initiators for just a
moment.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
That's true.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
But we've highlighted, I just want to say
it again.
One of the ways by which anon-initiator begins to tap into
that energy is to ask thequestion, where have actually
where have I actually seeninitiation in my life?
Right.
What have I done with it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
And then get and get in touch with the feeling of it
when it's worked.
Yeah.
When you really felt good aboutit.
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
And to identify those things that keep me from
initiating, that allow me toavoid, that allow me to
procrastinate, what is theemotional weight that
contributes to that fear?
So is it fear of what otherpeople will think, fear of
success, fear of this voicethat's going to crop up in my
(03:48):
head from my family of origin?
What is it that stymies us andto confront that inwardly in
ways that allow you to talk backto the voice that's within and
say, what are you trying toprotect me from?
And is there something that I amafraid of that keeps me from
initiating?
(04:09):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Yeah, you're really you're really expressing the the
most important monologue, whichis the one you just said.
The conversation with myselfabout all of this, if it makes
any sense on any level, thatconversation becomes as
important as any conversationyou've ever had with other
people or whoever, it's withyourself.
(04:29):
It's like, okay, if that allmakes sense right now, like
we've said on s on all thepodcasts, I'm right here.
Where do I need to be todaygiven what I think I want to do?
And again, I may need to takecare of myself.
One of my clients this weekasked me, he asked a personal
question, which I seldom answer,but in this situation, I I took
(04:50):
it a little more, a little moredirectly.
And he asked, So if you needcaring and no one else is giving
it to you, what do you do?
And I said, Well, I I go to Utahand ride trails.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
And I I I expanded on that.
But basically something thatbrings me joy that I initiate
and go do.
I I integrate all the differentexpressions when I when you do
that, but you still have toinitiate and follow through with
that.
And so in his for his example,it was like, what's the
conversation with yourself aboutwhat you know you need to do for
(05:26):
you?
And in the past, for him, it'sbeen business.
But now that he's semi-retired,he was thinking, what what is it
now?
But again, my point is that thatmonologue, that conversation,
it's like, okay, what am Ilacking right now?
Or what am I what am I feelingsad about, or what am I just uh
wondering, you know, what's thefeeling I'm having?
(05:49):
And what best expression rightnow would would take care of
that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
That's great, Jim.
I also think sometimes we canask ourselves, what are the
projects that you have wanted todo that you never seem to
complete?
How many half-done projects arethere?
And then what would it take tosay, okay, the priority is to
complete a project and to listento myself, experience the
(06:16):
feeling, and then decide whatprojects I just am done with and
I put away.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
A whole other thing that just kind of popped into my
thinking that there's so many inour culture right now, there
seems to be so many excuses asto why not as to not to do that.
The one thing that popped intomy mind right now was I have
several clients that strugglewith ADHD.
So they would say they havethese goals and things they want
to accomplish, but then they saytheir brain doesn't function.
(06:43):
And so that it's the ADHD.
Until I get that under control,can I really do this?
And yet then I'll point outsomething in their lives when
they get focused on they're ableto do that.
It's just more challenging.
And I'm not saying their ADHDdoesn't exist.
I'm just saying that it'ssometimes easy to come up with
excuses rather than just simplysaying, okay, the the uh the
(07:07):
uncomfortable, dirty little wordis uh uh is is discipline.
And I've over the years I I'vestruggled with that because so
many people conjure up ideas ofwhat that means uh in a in a
negative way, as opposed to anykind of change does demand a
conversation and accountability.
(07:28):
So the purest form ofaccountability is
self-accountability, and that'staking responsibility for my
journey about where I need tobe.
So, yes, that conversation is soimportant to say, okay, I could
I could want my my partner to dothis, I could want my kids to do
that, I could want my employerto do all this, but ultimately
how do I get to a place where Itake responsibility for it and
(07:51):
make the changes.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
I'm gonna offer one last piece.
I think this is coming from onemyself who has spent a lot of
time thinking about theinitiator energy and how
important it is for me to tapinto that to accomplish the
things that I want toaccomplish, because it is not
the natural energy of my life,but I've come to value- It's
kind of it's kind of amazingthat we're even doing these
(08:14):
podcasts.
It's the truth.
But is that the initiators,there are certain initiators
that I would have a tendency tovilify because they've left a
wake of relationship destructionin their pathway, or the way
they have lived out theirinitiation has been kind of in
(08:36):
an unconscious way and has beenhurtful or painful to others,
not paying attention to others'needs.
If I vilify and hold initiatorsin that category, then for me to
tap into that energy violatesthat tagline.
And so I have to confront thatthe very thing that I vilify is
(08:58):
in me.
Once I acknowledge that it is inme, the very thing that I am
saying about the other is aprojection of that within me,
hard to recognize because westuff it into the shadow side so
far it's tough to pull it out.
But once I begin to do that,then the initiating energy
(09:20):
becomes less I don't fear thetoxicity nearly as much as I did
if I'm able to acknowledge thatthe toxicity inside of me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
No, I think again, that's why I go back to I talked
about a few minutes 20 minutesago, is that balance between
compassion and accountability.
An emotion-driven person,they're incredibly aware of
that.
But if they don't bring somekind of stability to the their
emotions, then they're all overthe map and they have a hard
(09:51):
time accomplishing things.
On the other hand, if you gettoo much in the accountability,
you're so structured and sodisciplined in some ways that it
takes the joy out of life.
So that's why internalizing bothof those expressions, I identify
the emotional aspect of me andwhat the emotions want to do or
what my feelings want to do.
And then I also kind of balancethem out with the
(10:12):
accountability.
What's it look like to let thisfeeling be expressed?
And how do I do that with someintegrity?
And again, that balance is so,so important.
I mean, you know, my my word forit in in counseling is
mood-driven.
The mood-driven personoftentimes are with someone who
is absolutely head-driven.
(10:33):
They're the intellectual side ofthem.
I have a couple right now,that's that's their dance.
It's tip it's her, that's themore emotion-driven.
And the husband is sometimesminimizes her feelings because
he's out of touch with his.
So I'm working at balancing thatout and basically saying the
journey is individual.
I mean, I identify for himthey're feeling you have strong
(10:54):
feelings.
And he acknowledges that.
And I looked at her and I said,And you have strong head
knowledge about some things.
She acknowledged that.
I said, That's just the dance.
You guys project on each otheruh that expression as opposed to
owning that and saying, okay,how can I be more balanced?
And they're able to they've beenable to really understand it,
(11:15):
even though even though the theemotion-driven one, the lady
said, you know, this has takensuch a long time.
And I looked at it and I went,it's only been like two months.
So it's because she wanted moreprogress on a feelings level.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
This is an overgeneralization, and I
realize that.
But when there are twoindividuals, it doesn't even
have to be a male and a female.
It can be two males, it can betwo females.
But when you when you have twopeople, one of whom argues from
a logical s a logical side, andone of whom argues from a
(11:53):
relational emotion side, thelogic side person will typically
win the battle and lose the war.
Absolutely.
Yep.
And they don't know that they'relosing the war.
And that's that's when thecrisis comes when when being
right ends up being the one wholoses because you've not paid
(12:19):
attention to the fact that rightis not the only issue here.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
Aaron Ross Powell Right.
And we didn't we haven't talkedmuch about the negative
expression of the initiator, isthat they really discount the
emotional side of it and theymiss so many opportunities to
connect with people that on somelevel isn't as important as
accomplishing the task.
That's why, again, we've said ita thousand times, the balance of
that is so important.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Yeah.
So let's draw this to someclosure and specifically for the
initiator, powerful energy inthe world helps.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Absolutely necessary, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
I think it's all major progress seems to be
primarily driven by aninitiating force.
And that initiating force istypical, typically coming from
people who are initiators.
What are some of theadmonitions?
What are the things that justbecause I'm an initiator, I
ought to be looking out for?
(13:12):
The cautions, the thehighlights, the ways I can
improve what I do to be morebalanced and whole.
Give us some suggestions.
SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Well, actually, it's uh the most the easiest way to
do it is to ask those people inyour life.
Because they will tell.
They will tell.
They will tell you.
It is like a mic drop moment.
Well, and and again, that's whythe the courage to simply ask,
how do how do you experience meis such a profound way.
(13:43):
If you give people the thepermission to tell the truth.
Yeah, I mean, the initiator wholives typically with the
responder, if you say, So wwhat's my weakness?
What's what what thing do I needto work on?
And and if if you mean it, theywill tell you.
You're always moving.
You never sit down, you neverstop.
Okay.
(14:04):
Well w is that a bad thing?
Well, not necessarily, but itcould be.
So yeah, you'll you ask otherpeople how they experience you.
I mean, uh the other thing too,if you're if you're a leader, if
you uh if you're a consciousleader at all and you respect
the people that you're leading,and you have a form where you
(14:24):
can ask for their feedbackbecause it's safe enough to do
that, again, it's it's prettyobvious what they'll tell you.
And then you have to look outfor the I mean it's kind of like
the the analogy of givingsomebody permission in your
group to just to be a courtjester, to basically say the
things no one else wants to say.
In my mind, that's one of themost important aspects of
(14:46):
leadership is having somebodythat's outside of that you
trust, isn't it?
They can't be, you know,obviously uh just just jerky or
obnoxious in some ways, but thatyou do trust to be able to say,
so tell me where I'm going offtrack.
And those are typicallystabilizers, what we've talked
(15:07):
about before, but they're apretty good balance of the
stabilizer, the responder, andthe transformer.
Because they'll see things noone else sees and they'll have
the courage to speak it up, tospeak it if they've given been
been given permission.
The initiator or the malcontentin an organization that's an
initiator but negative, they'lltake shots at you.
So they'll sit in a in a meetingand they'll think they can do it
(15:28):
better, and so they'll be it'llbe a negative kind of encounter
in that perspective.
Because they're initiators too,and they're trying to subvert
perhaps the one in charge.
You have to pay attention tothat.
But back to your basic questionis uh other people is one of the
most the best ways, uh peoplethat you trust, best ways for
you to get a handle on howyou're coming across.
(15:50):
Wow.
Thanks, Jim.
I mean, sometimes the other theother thing I can say is
sometimes a leader will feelreally alone and isolated.
Well, if that's the case, ifthey if they come in and talk to
me about feeling that way, theyprobably are so strong that
they've shut out people'sexpressions of how they're
coming across.
(16:10):
They've been so successful at itor or so good at it that no one
dares to really tell them or uhcounter what's happening.
If they've had if had they'vehad great business success or or
whatever, in that sense, it'sharder to get people to speak up
to the to the limitations of apersonality style.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
So everybody around them becomesenablers in essence.
I also think that sometimes forinitiators, i they often don't
sense burnout soon enough.
Like it can hit them by surprisebecause the successes come.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
Yeah.
A lot of times they'll they'llspend it one or two weeks in the
hospital every year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
Which then leads to the kind of I don't know, maybe
this is a suggestion, but thenotion that they take on
self-care as a project, like ato-do list, as opposed to taking
on self-care as an as self-care,as a something to just
experience and hold as a lifegiving.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah.
Their self-care would be let'sgo on vacation and see
everything we can possibly seein a one-week period of time.
And at the end of it, they'll bemore exhausted.
But they'll think they'verelaxed because they've done a
bunch of stuff that were notwork-related.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Yeah.
And so in some ways, would it befair to say that one of the
great ways for an initiator tomaybe move back into balance is
to do some things that make themmore aware of what their body is
saying, listening to their bodytalk, because the the body
becomes very often just a vesselto accomplish more and more
(17:57):
success.
But pay attention to where youfeel inflammation, pay attention
to where you need sleep, payattention to what your body is
trying to push you toward.
Is that a fair direction to put?
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
And again, that's another way, back to your
earlier question.
That's another way to diagnose,is it really be in touch with
what's happening with your body.
A lot of times the initiatorswill go to the doctor to get a
pill or some quick fix to takecare of it, when in reality it's
it's a a bigger conversationthat they should have with
themselves, which is okay.
(18:30):
Where am I again, even askingthe question, where am I out of
balance?
For an initiator to ask thatquestion, they're going like,
I'm not out of balance.
I I just need to do more.
I need to figure out what'swrong and then fix it, as
opposed to, wait a minute,fixing it must mean may mean
just sitting with someone andenjoying the moment, as hard as
that is.
You know, the old adage, there'sno there's no wasted time in
(18:51):
front of fire and water.
I think even sitting in front ofa fireplace or at a lake, if you
can really appreciate thosemoments, it's a little bit of a
task, but it's also trying toget in touch with just being.
unknown (19:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
The initiator has a hard time just being.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
I think the initiating side of all of those
who operate from a moremasculine energy or expression
is when you're in a relationshipwith somebody who expresses a
problem and you try and fix it,and their response is, I'm not
looking for anybody to fix this.
I just want somebody to listen.
(19:28):
If you can hold on to one ofthose moments to reference back
to in the future and go, wow, sosimply being present with
somebody is what's desired insome situations.
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
Right.
The other way you can get aninitiator to identify that is to
say, you ever had abrainstorming session where you
just wanted people just to kindof think out loud about things?
That's being present.
It may you may have thought youwere talking about establishing
a new goal or something, but youwere present with these people
and You were open to theirideas.
(20:02):
That's being present or in themoment.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
Aaron Ross Powell And that's also the beginning
point of valuing other energiesthat are important in the world
and then important internallyfor the initiator.
So for the initiator to respectthe responder, not just for what
they bring to their life, but tosay, oh, I actually need to do
(20:24):
some of that inwardly so that Ican also be a responder when
it's appropriate, or transformeror organizer.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
All of those.
And again, the negative side ofthe initiator are, I guess, for
lack of a better way of sayingit, the the negative side is
they become dictatorial.
They become full of power andcontrol, and they want their way
all the time.
That's the extreme initiator.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
And taking that all the way to the extreme.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
And what's interesting is the cult the cult
leader almost always has all theother expressions in that cult.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Oh, right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
That served the initiator.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Yeah.
But what a powerful energy inthe world.
It brings benefit to far more tothemselves, eventually, the
kinds of things that they bringabout.
Yeah, so many people.
SPEAKER_01 (21:14):
Yeah, to your point earlier, it's vilified or it's
lauded.
I mean, uh the classic examplein our culture, I was thinking
yesterday about it.
Just all the great innovatorsand people that we look back on,
whether it's Henry Ford with theassembly line, whether it's
Tesla with with electricity,just amazing these people.
And along with Tesla, Elon Musk.
(21:35):
He gets incredibly vilified orlauded.
And yet he's brought so manyinnovations and things to the
world that without him may havetaken longer, may have still
happened.
But there's always been thesepeople in the world throughout
history that have created biggreat changes because they had
this natural initiating energyand they were so focused on, you
(21:59):
know, for Elon Musk getting toMars.
Well, you know what, peoplethink that's crazy.
Well, that's what it was it waslike people living in Europe who
wanted to go to the New World.
They knew it was there, and theygot in these ships and they took
off across this ocean.
I mean, that just it's anamazing energy.
But it also can and it createsjobs, it creates worlds for lots
(22:20):
of people.
And we vilify it or we laud it.
And sometimes we just need tokind of calm down.
And my phrase for some of myclients is, whoa, Nelly, just
slow down a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Well, and what we have hoped in this podcast is
that we shift that word to couldwe integrate it instead of
vilifying it or making a heroout of somebody else, could we
take that energy and integrateit into our life in ways that
are healthy and whole andbalanced, and that inward change
will result in transformationoutwardly as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Yeah.
I tell people jokingly a littlebit that if if it was up to me,
we'd still be trying to figureout how to have fire.
SPEAKER_00 (23:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
I would go, every once in a while, this lightning
from the sky comes down andstarts a fire.
Let's just keep doing that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
Yeah.
And everybody looks at you andgoes, Oh, sure, I want to follow
that guy.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
What?
Exactly.
It's like, whoa, didn't you justreveal way too much to us?
I go, Yeah, probably I did.
Anyway.
Well, this has been great.
Good discussion.
Good discussion, Dee.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
And kind of completes our going in depth
with each of the personalitystyles.
We're going to spend the nextfew weeks looking at projection,
looking at how this plays itselfout in relationship and trying
to integrate all of them.
So we hope you come back andjoin us for the subsequent
episodes.
Great to be with you, Jim, andwith all who joined us.
Thank you, Dee.
(24:01):
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
(24:23):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm D.
Kelly, and I'm here with myco-host, Jim Shaley.
I heard a s statement the otherday, one of those cute quips
that make you think.
This one stuck with me a littlebit longer.
The line is the life you want ison the other side of the work
you are avoiding.
(00:33):
I kind of look at initiatorsthat don't have as many
obstacles.
They push past there's not muchthey avoid when they are
determined to go after a goal.
Absolutely.
Yep, absolutely sure.
All of those who are strugglingto find initiating energy find
all kinds of things to avoid thework that will get them to that
(00:53):
life they want.
And so it becomes really crucialfor us to understand the
initiator, not that we want thatto that we're trying to make
that our default, but to accessthat energy within and push back
what we avoid to do the thingsthat will get us where we want
to be.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Yeah.
And again, the the classic thingis, you know, you hire an
executive coach, they'll almostalways set goals.
Well, if I'm any of the otherexpressions, that's a great
idea.
But if I don't act if I don'taccess, if I don't access the
initiating energy, it's like,okay.
(01:36):
And a lot of people will setgoals and they'll never look at
those goals again.
But they will feel like they'vemade some movement because
they've established a goal.
That's why lots of times you'llsee action steps, because there
has to be action steps toimplement the goal.
But again, if I'm not a naturalinitiator, I'm gonna hope
somebody else helps me do it, orI'm gonna it's just frustrating
(01:56):
because then I've set all thesegoals, but I never do them, and
then you end up getting morediscouraged because again, the
accountability for people thatdon't have natural initiating
energy is crucial for themovement or nothing changes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Yeah.
I think the non-initiators, manyof us are thrilled with are
thrilled when somebody presentsa workbook where you can fill in
the blanks.
What are my five goals?
What are the four acts and soand then how am I going to make
them smart goals and how arethey measurable?
(02:30):
And when you've done all that,you've put together this great
little journal or notebook, yougo, see, I did it.
Well, nothing.
You've not done anything.
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
That's why I say insight doesn't create change.
There has to be movement.
And that's again, that's thehardest.
It'd be interesting to know, butit it probably is for the
non-initiating types, it'sprobably the hardest expression
to really, really implement.
Yeah.
And yet is the core it's thecore of all change from that
perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
So hang in their initiators.
We're talking aboutnon-initiators for just a
moment.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
That's true.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
But we've highlighted, I just want to say
it again.
One of the ways by which anon-initiator begins to tap into
that energy is to ask thequestion, where have actually
where have I actually seeninitiation in my life?
Right.
What have I done with it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
And then get and get in touch with the feeling of it
when it's worked.
Yeah.
When you really felt good aboutit.
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
And to identify those things that keep me from
initiating, that allow me toavoid, that allow me to
procrastinate, what is theemotional weight that
contributes to that fear?
So is it fear of what otherpeople will think, fear of
success, fear of this voicethat's going to crop up in my
(03:48):
head from my family of origin?
What is it that stymies us andto confront that inwardly in
ways that allow you to talk backto the voice that's within and
say, what are you trying toprotect me from?
And is there something that I amafraid of that keeps me from
initiating?
(04:09):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Yeah, you're really you're really expressing the the
most important monologue, whichis the one you just said.
The conversation with myselfabout all of this, if it makes
any sense on any level, thatconversation becomes as
important as any conversationyou've ever had with other
people or whoever, it's withyourself.
(04:29):
It's like, okay, if that allmakes sense right now, like
we've said on s on all thepodcasts, I'm right here.
Where do I need to be todaygiven what I think I want to do?
And again, I may need to takecare of myself.
One of my clients this weekasked me, he asked a personal
question, which I seldom answer,but in this situation, I I took
(04:50):
it a little more, a little moredirectly.
And he asked, So if you needcaring and no one else is giving
it to you, what do you do?
And I said, Well, I I go to Utahand ride trails.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
And I I I expanded on that.
But basically something thatbrings me joy that I initiate
and go do.
I I integrate all the differentexpressions when I when you do
that, but you still have toinitiate and follow through with
that.
And so in his for his example,it was like, what's the
conversation with yourself aboutwhat you know you need to do for
(05:26):
you?
And in the past, for him, it'sbeen business.
But now that he's semi-retired,he was thinking, what what is it
now?
But again, my point is that thatmonologue, that conversation,
it's like, okay, what am Ilacking right now?
Or what am I what am I feelingsad about, or what am I just uh
wondering, you know, what's thefeeling I'm having?
(05:49):
And what best expression rightnow would would take care of
that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
That's great, Jim.
I also think sometimes we canask ourselves, what are the
projects that you have wanted todo that you never seem to
complete?
How many half-done projects arethere?
And then what would it take tosay, okay, the priority is to
complete a project and to listento myself, experience the
(06:16):
feeling, and then decide whatprojects I just am done with and
I put away.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
A whole other thing that just kind of popped into my
thinking that there's so many inour culture right now, there
seems to be so many excuses asto why not as to not to do that.
The one thing that popped intomy mind right now was I have
several clients that strugglewith ADHD.
So they would say they havethese goals and things they want
to accomplish, but then they saytheir brain doesn't function.
(06:43):
And so that it's the ADHD.
Until I get that under control,can I really do this?
And yet then I'll point outsomething in their lives when
they get focused on they're ableto do that.
It's just more challenging.
And I'm not saying their ADHDdoesn't exist.
I'm just saying that it'ssometimes easy to come up with
excuses rather than just simplysaying, okay, the the uh the
(07:07):
uncomfortable, dirty little wordis uh uh is is discipline.
And I've over the years I I'vestruggled with that because so
many people conjure up ideas ofwhat that means uh in a in a
negative way, as opposed to anykind of change does demand a
conversation and accountability.
(07:28):
So the purest form ofaccountability is
self-accountability, and that'staking responsibility for my
journey about where I need tobe.
So, yes, that conversation is soimportant to say, okay, I could
I could want my my partner to dothis, I could want my kids to do
that, I could want my employerto do all this, but ultimately
how do I get to a place where Itake responsibility for it and
(07:51):
make the changes.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
I'm gonna offer one last piece.
I think this is coming from onemyself who has spent a lot of
time thinking about theinitiator energy and how
important it is for me to tapinto that to accomplish the
things that I want toaccomplish, because it is not
the natural energy of my life,but I've come to value- It's
kind of it's kind of amazingthat we're even doing these
(08:14):
podcasts.
It's the truth.
But is that the initiators,there are certain initiators
that I would have a tendency tovilify because they've left a
wake of relationship destructionin their pathway, or the way
they have lived out theirinitiation has been kind of in
(08:36):
an unconscious way and has beenhurtful or painful to others,
not paying attention to others'needs.
If I vilify and hold initiatorsin that category, then for me to
tap into that energy violatesthat tagline.
And so I have to confront thatthe very thing that I vilify is
(08:58):
in me.
Once I acknowledge that it is inme, the very thing that I am
saying about the other is aprojection of that within me,
hard to recognize because westuff it into the shadow side so
far it's tough to pull it out.
But once I begin to do that,then the initiating energy
(09:20):
becomes less I don't fear thetoxicity nearly as much as I did
if I'm able to acknowledge thatthe toxicity inside of me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
No, I think again, that's why I go back to I talked
about a few minutes 20 minutesago, is that balance between
compassion and accountability.
An emotion-driven person,they're incredibly aware of
that.
But if they don't bring somekind of stability to the their
emotions, then they're all overthe map and they have a hard
(09:51):
time accomplishing things.
On the other hand, if you gettoo much in the accountability,
you're so structured and sodisciplined in some ways that it
takes the joy out of life.
So that's why internalizing bothof those expressions, I identify
the emotional aspect of me andwhat the emotions want to do or
what my feelings want to do.
And then I also kind of balancethem out with the
(10:12):
accountability.
What's it look like to let thisfeeling be expressed?
And how do I do that with someintegrity?
And again, that balance is so,so important.
I mean, you know, my my word forit in in counseling is
mood-driven.
The mood-driven personoftentimes are with someone who
is absolutely head-driven.
(10:33):
They're the intellectual side ofthem.
I have a couple right now,that's that's their dance.
It's tip it's her, that's themore emotion-driven.
And the husband is sometimesminimizes her feelings because
he's out of touch with his.
So I'm working at balancing thatout and basically saying the
journey is individual.
I mean, I identify for himthey're feeling you have strong
(10:54):
feelings.
And he acknowledges that.
And I looked at her and I said,And you have strong head
knowledge about some things.
She acknowledged that.
I said, That's just the dance.
You guys project on each otheruh that expression as opposed to
owning that and saying, okay,how can I be more balanced?
And they're able to they've beenable to really understand it,
(11:15):
even though even though the theemotion-driven one, the lady
said, you know, this has takensuch a long time.
And I looked at it and I went,it's only been like two months.
So it's because she wanted moreprogress on a feelings level.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
This is an overgeneralization, and I
realize that.
But when there are twoindividuals, it doesn't even
have to be a male and a female.
It can be two males, it can betwo females.
But when you when you have twopeople, one of whom argues from
a logical s a logical side, andone of whom argues from a
(11:53):
relational emotion side, thelogic side person will typically
win the battle and lose the war.
Absolutely.
Yep.
And they don't know that they'relosing the war.
And that's that's when thecrisis comes when when being
right ends up being the one wholoses because you've not paid
(12:19):
attention to the fact that rightis not the only issue here.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
Aaron Ross Powell Right.
And we didn't we haven't talkedmuch about the negative
expression of the initiator, isthat they really discount the
emotional side of it and theymiss so many opportunities to
connect with people that on somelevel isn't as important as
accomplishing the task.
That's why, again, we've said ita thousand times, the balance of
that is so important.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Yeah.
So let's draw this to someclosure and specifically for the
initiator, powerful energy inthe world helps.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Absolutely necessary, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
I think it's all major progress seems to be
primarily driven by aninitiating force.
And that initiating force istypical, typically coming from
people who are initiators.
What are some of theadmonitions?
What are the things that justbecause I'm an initiator, I
ought to be looking out for?
(13:12):
The cautions, the thehighlights, the ways I can
improve what I do to be morebalanced and whole.
Give us some suggestions.
SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Well, actually, it's uh the most the easiest way to
do it is to ask those people inyour life.
Because they will tell.
They will tell.
They will tell you.
It is like a mic drop moment.
Well, and and again, that's whythe the courage to simply ask,
how do how do you experience meis such a profound way.
(13:43):
If you give people the thepermission to tell the truth.
Yeah, I mean, the initiator wholives typically with the
responder, if you say, So wwhat's my weakness?
What's what what thing do I needto work on?
And and if if you mean it, theywill tell you.
You're always moving.
You never sit down, you neverstop.
Okay.
(14:04):
Well w is that a bad thing?
Well, not necessarily, but itcould be.
So yeah, you'll you ask otherpeople how they experience you.
I mean, uh the other thing too,if you're if you're a leader, if
you uh if you're a consciousleader at all and you respect
the people that you're leading,and you have a form where you
(14:24):
can ask for their feedbackbecause it's safe enough to do
that, again, it's it's prettyobvious what they'll tell you.
And then you have to look outfor the I mean it's kind of like
the the analogy of givingsomebody permission in your
group to just to be a courtjester, to basically say the
things no one else wants to say.
In my mind, that's one of themost important aspects of
(14:46):
leadership is having somebodythat's outside of that you
trust, isn't it?
They can't be, you know,obviously uh just just jerky or
obnoxious in some ways, but thatyou do trust to be able to say,
so tell me where I'm going offtrack.
And those are typicallystabilizers, what we've talked
(15:07):
about before, but they're apretty good balance of the
stabilizer, the responder, andthe transformer.
Because they'll see things noone else sees and they'll have
the courage to speak it up, tospeak it if they've given been
been given permission.
The initiator or the malcontentin an organization that's an
initiator but negative, they'lltake shots at you.
So they'll sit in a in a meetingand they'll think they can do it
(15:28):
better, and so they'll be it'llbe a negative kind of encounter
in that perspective.
Because they're initiators too,and they're trying to subvert
perhaps the one in charge.
You have to pay attention tothat.
But back to your basic questionis uh other people is one of the
most the best ways, uh peoplethat you trust, best ways for
you to get a handle on howyou're coming across.
(15:50):
Wow.
Thanks, Jim.
I mean, sometimes the other theother thing I can say is
sometimes a leader will feelreally alone and isolated.
Well, if that's the case, ifthey if they come in and talk to
me about feeling that way, theyprobably are so strong that
they've shut out people'sexpressions of how they're
coming across.
(16:10):
They've been so successful at itor or so good at it that no one
dares to really tell them or uhcounter what's happening.
If they've had if had they'vehad great business success or or
whatever, in that sense, it'sharder to get people to speak up
to the to the limitations of apersonality style.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
So everybody around them becomesenablers in essence.
I also think that sometimes forinitiators, i they often don't
sense burnout soon enough.
Like it can hit them by surprisebecause the successes come.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
Yeah.
A lot of times they'll they'llspend it one or two weeks in the
hospital every year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
Which then leads to the kind of I don't know, maybe
this is a suggestion, but thenotion that they take on
self-care as a project, like ato-do list, as opposed to taking
on self-care as an as self-care,as a something to just
experience and hold as a lifegiving.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah.
Their self-care would be let'sgo on vacation and see
everything we can possibly seein a one-week period of time.
And at the end of it, they'll bemore exhausted.
But they'll think they'verelaxed because they've done a
bunch of stuff that were notwork-related.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Yeah.
And so in some ways, would it befair to say that one of the
great ways for an initiator tomaybe move back into balance is
to do some things that make themmore aware of what their body is
saying, listening to their bodytalk, because the the body
becomes very often just a vesselto accomplish more and more
(17:57):
success.
But pay attention to where youfeel inflammation, pay attention
to where you need sleep, payattention to what your body is
trying to push you toward.
Is that a fair direction to put?
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
And again, that's another way, back to your
earlier question.
That's another way to diagnose,is it really be in touch with
what's happening with your body.
A lot of times the initiatorswill go to the doctor to get a
pill or some quick fix to takecare of it, when in reality it's
it's a a bigger conversationthat they should have with
themselves, which is okay.
(18:30):
Where am I again, even askingthe question, where am I out of
balance?
For an initiator to ask thatquestion, they're going like,
I'm not out of balance.
I I just need to do more.
I need to figure out what'swrong and then fix it, as
opposed to, wait a minute,fixing it must mean may mean
just sitting with someone andenjoying the moment, as hard as
that is.
You know, the old adage, there'sno there's no wasted time in
(18:51):
front of fire and water.
I think even sitting in front ofa fireplace or at a lake, if you
can really appreciate thosemoments, it's a little bit of a
task, but it's also trying toget in touch with just being.
unknown (19:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
The initiator has a hard time just being.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
I think the initiating side of all of those
who operate from a moremasculine energy or expression
is when you're in a relationshipwith somebody who expresses a
problem and you try and fix it,and their response is, I'm not
looking for anybody to fix this.
I just want somebody to listen.
(19:28):
If you can hold on to one ofthose moments to reference back
to in the future and go, wow, sosimply being present with
somebody is what's desired insome situations.
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
Right.
The other way you can get aninitiator to identify that is to
say, you ever had abrainstorming session where you
just wanted people just to kindof think out loud about things?
That's being present.
It may you may have thought youwere talking about establishing
a new goal or something, but youwere present with these people
and You were open to theirideas.
(20:02):
That's being present or in themoment.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
Aaron Ross Powell And that's also the beginning
point of valuing other energiesthat are important in the world
and then important internallyfor the initiator.
So for the initiator to respectthe responder, not just for what
they bring to their life, but tosay, oh, I actually need to do
(20:24):
some of that inwardly so that Ican also be a responder when
it's appropriate, or transformeror organizer.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
All of those.
And again, the negative side ofthe initiator are, I guess, for
lack of a better way of sayingit, the the negative side is
they become dictatorial.
They become full of power andcontrol, and they want their way
all the time.
That's the extreme initiator.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
And taking that all the way to the extreme.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
And what's interesting is the cult the cult
leader almost always has all theother expressions in that cult.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Oh, right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
That served the initiator.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Yeah.
But what a powerful energy inthe world.
It brings benefit to far more tothemselves, eventually, the
kinds of things that they bringabout.
Yeah, so many people.
SPEAKER_01 (21:14):
Yeah, to your point earlier, it's vilified or it's
lauded.
I mean, uh the classic examplein our culture, I was thinking
yesterday about it.
Just all the great innovatorsand people that we look back on,
whether it's Henry Ford with theassembly line, whether it's
Tesla with with electricity,just amazing these people.
And along with Tesla, Elon Musk.
(21:35):
He gets incredibly vilified orlauded.
And yet he's brought so manyinnovations and things to the
world that without him may havetaken longer, may have still
happened.
But there's always been thesepeople in the world throughout
history that have created biggreat changes because they had
this natural initiating energyand they were so focused on, you
(21:59):
know, for Elon Musk getting toMars.
Well, you know what, peoplethink that's crazy.
Well, that's what it was it waslike people living in Europe who
wanted to go to the New World.
They knew it was there, and theygot in these ships and they took
off across this ocean.
I mean, that just it's anamazing energy.
But it also can and it createsjobs, it creates worlds for lots
(22:20):
of people.
And we vilify it or we laud it.
And sometimes we just need tokind of calm down.
And my phrase for some of myclients is, whoa, Nelly, just
slow down a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Well, and what we have hoped in this podcast is
that we shift that word to couldwe integrate it instead of
vilifying it or making a heroout of somebody else, could we
take that energy and integrateit into our life in ways that
are healthy and whole andbalanced, and that inward change
will result in transformationoutwardly as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Yeah.
I tell people jokingly a littlebit that if if it was up to me,
we'd still be trying to figureout how to have fire.
SPEAKER_00 (23:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
I would go, every once in a while, this lightning
from the sky comes down andstarts a fire.
Let's just keep doing that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
Yeah.
And everybody looks at you andgoes, Oh, sure, I want to follow
that guy.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
What?
Exactly.
It's like, whoa, didn't you justreveal way too much to us?
I go, Yeah, probably I did.
Anyway.
Well, this has been great.
Good discussion.
Good discussion, Dee.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
And kind of completes our going in depth
with each of the personalitystyles.
We're going to spend the nextfew weeks looking at projection,
looking at how this plays itselfout in relationship and trying
to integrate all of them.
So we hope you come back andjoin us for the subsequent
episodes.
Great to be with you, Jim, andwith all who joined us.
Thank you, Dee.
(24:01):
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
(24:23):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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