December 17, 2025 • 29 mins
This episode considers the importance of integrating the various personality styles. We explore the sobering shift from rescue fantasies to self-responsibility and how flexible thinking builds emotional safety and connection. Along the way, we unpack the minimized feminine voice, creativity as a practice, and why humor often shows up as armor.
• accepting that no one will rescue us
• hearing the feminine voice and giving it space
• nurturing neglected parts through art and creativity
• cognitive flexibility as a pillar of emotional health
• choosing relationship over being right
• inward-outward energy and locus of control
• control strategies, charisma, and safety needs
• humor as protection and its relational cost
• learning to sit with feelings without qualifiers
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelley, and I'm herewith my co-host, Jim Shalley.
We're a coach and a therapistwho love talking about how inner
work can help you with moreawareness, purpose, and freedom.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
When you miss that connection with a parent in a in
a healthy way, as I sayoftentimes, it's it's it's not
fair at all to then realize thatyou can go on a search for
someone out here in your life toheal that, but ultimately it's
the mirror that you take a lookat and go, wait a minute,
there's no one coming to rescueme.
One of my clients, longlong-term client, a couple of
(00:52):
years ago finally came to thatrealization.
No one's coming to rescue me,are they?
And then they said, Not evenyou, and I said, Not even me.
And that's pretty sobering.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah.
And I part of that soberingfeeling is it's kind of in a
real a realization of beingalone.
And then being okay with thatso that you then can no longer
need to be alone.
Yeah, absolutely.
(01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
This is a tangent, but are most are most of the
things that we do tangents?
Yeah, they are.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I just it which it which just creates more work for
me to edit it to get ittogether.
But I was thinking of themasculine, feminine stuff we
were talking about the last fewweeks, and I came across an old
dream in a journal, and I endedup using it as an example in a
(01:58):
opening of chapter for what I'vebeen working on.
But the dream was I'm in atheater watching a presentation
in a theater.
I'm in a theater, yeah.
Watching a dramaticpresentation, and the male is
(02:20):
trying to persuade the female tospend a weekend or something
like that at the cabin that youcan see on a pole in the
distance behind them.
And her name was Poppy Seed,and she was about the size of a
poppy seed.
And the recognition that in mylife there are times when the
(02:47):
feminine voice is so dismissedfrom my life.
And as the ego in the theater,I found it incredibly humorous,
and I thought if I was onlyfilming this, this would be an
instant classic, which for meimplied that this is the classic
(03:08):
way that I sometimes deal withthe feminine.
I just give it no space becauseI know I'm right.
It's back to this thing.
You know, you know you'reright, and so you dismiss the
other voices, not onlyexternally, but in many ways,
more importantly, internally.
Because it's tough to listen tothat externally until you've
dealt with that internally.
But it was poppy seed was thefeminine voice in my lobby.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Anyway, well, you know, the poppy seed, it's uh it
can go the other extreme as atransformer addictions and
things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
Those images are so subjective.
Yeah.
But I'm pretty certain this wasmy minimum.
Pretty certain at all you do.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah.
So how so uh uh anothertangent.
So how do you how do you gengenerally uh hear the feminine
in your life?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I I don't want to lose what you just said.
I I will say that that notionof poppy seed being a uh a a
drug of sorts is interesting toview the feminine as that
seductive aphrodisiac and thatthat's what the feminine voice
is as opposed to be being avoice that actually has
(04:23):
something to say.
So yeah, that's okay.
Great insight there, Dr.
Shalley.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Well, I mean it it's it it the whole imagery of sex
in a sense that the masculinejust takes it and the feminine
seduces.
I mean there's differentapproaches anyway.
So back to the Those areextreme expressions of those
energies, I'm just saying.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Uh for that clarification.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh my goodness.
So what did you ask about thefeminine voice of my life?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah.
How how do you hear it, or doyou hear it, or just dismiss it
all the time?
And what what characteristic isit of the feminine voice?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's all it's tough to know.
It's tough to know when it'sshrunk that much.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, there's a nurturing one, and then there's
a static one that basicallytries to integrate a little bit
of the masculine by bringingorder to things by reminding you
of what needs to happen andwhat you need to bring, what you
need to take.
It's that's what's sointeresting about the feminine
energy.
It's relationally driven, butit can be interpreted oftentimes
in a negative form as opposedto the positive aspects of it.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I think one of the thingsthat I hope is true is that was
an older journal, and it waslike kind of a wake-up call in
my life.
Okay, good.
So clarifying.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
No, okay.
Now it's perfect.
It's perfectly integrated.
Okay, I get it.
I get it.
No, it's like it's like beingreminded of did you remember to
lock the door?
That's a feminine energyrelationally driven.
Don't let you know, let's nothave anything happen, bad
happen, but oftentimes can beirritating to someone who's
(06:18):
here.
Of course I lock the door.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah.
Um, and I your question'slegitimate, though.
Uh if that has at times in mylife been minimized for any
number of reasons.
Can be family of origin, can beexperiences, can be all kinds
of reasons why you minimize aparticular expression of
yourself.
How do you protect yourselffrom not returning to that old
(06:45):
pattern when stress levels goup?
Because we tend to, when thingsget stressful, retreat to that
which is most familiarhistorically in our life.
And I think one of those one ofthe ways by which I do that is
to actually put into practicethe nurturing of some of those
(07:05):
other sides.
So uh growing up, music was nota big part of my life.
Art was not a part of my lifeat all.
So an example is yesterday Iwas in San Diego, has an
absolutely beautiful downtownpublic library, and up on the
ninth floor is art gallery, andwalked through the art gallery
(07:27):
and took my time, read some ofthe descriptions, tried to look
at things that I wouldn'tnormally look at.
Well, that is putting intopractice, trying to nurture a
side of me that's not the way inwhich I grew up or natural, so
that when stress levels go up,there is a context recently in
(07:48):
my life of something that isnurturing that side and helping
it to grow.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
And that's a great example of uh acknowledging the
parts of ourselves that need tobe nurtured externally.
And that's why people do thingsall the time, all the time, and
they they're not sure why theydo them.
And from my perspective, it'snurturing an aspect of
themselves they're not fullyaware of.
(08:13):
So to make that that kind ofconscious choice to be aware
that, okay, I'm going toappreciate art, something I
would never do.
Okay, what does that symbolizeinside of myself?
What am I what am I reallyneeding to nurture inside of me?
Yeah.
And it's the creative, it's thecreative energy that we all
have, that we all have.
Some have it bigger andbrighter than others, but we all
(08:34):
do.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I there's a real practical outgrowth in that, and
not just this art installation,but ones that I'm attracted to
are ones that make you kind ofturn your head and go, what was
the artist thinking here orfeeling here?
And it triggers inside of methe motivation to allow my work
(08:59):
or my writing or my interactionsto take into account things
that aren't in my visualperception right now.
What is it that I'm not seeing?
What is it that that is apossibility that I would have
never considered if I was stuckin this organizational framework
or spreadsheet framework?
And so, yeah, it has some realwonderful advantages, some of
(09:24):
which are incredibly practical,and others are just downright
enjoyable because you experiencesomething you haven't thought
of before.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, and the phrase I use in therapy a lot is uh
emotional well-being hasflexibility of thinking as a
core ingredient.
And so what we're talking aboutreally is pushing your thinking
style to all different aspectsof it.
That's back to your originalcontext.
That's that's one of thereasons how we become safe
(09:52):
emotionally.
When we can push ourselvesoutside of our own comfort and
our own thinking styles toembrace others' thinking styles,
then we're safe for ourselves,and then oftentimes we then
become safe for others to feelcomfortable expressing their
pain, their traumas, all thosethings.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So I'm a person who comes to you and you perceive
pretty quickly that mythinking's pretty inflexible.
Most likely I have no idea thatthat's true and would push back
on you if you brought it up.
How do you try and leadsomebody to the place of seeing
(10:32):
that their thinking isinflexible?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Obviously, the older we get, the more challenging
that is.
So if you have someone who's intheir 60s that come in and you
can pretty much tell right awaythey are they are so locked into
their way of thinking.
And if they're in arelationship, I usually ask,
describe your partner and theirpersonality style.
And it's almost alwaysdiametrically opposed to how
(10:58):
they think.
And I said, Is there any valuein how they think?
And that can usually, if theystill have a favorable feeling
towards that person, that canbegin to see that, okay, there
is a different way of thinkingabout things.
And then of course the classicthing is, do you want to be
right or have a relationship?
It's you know, it's that soundsvery trite and simple, but it
(11:19):
it's profound in its in itsimplications.
Uh I had a I did a Zoom sessionwith a couple this week, and
they're both very strong-willedand very successful in their own
fields, and they clash all thetime with that same thing.
It's like, and I will repeat,so what am I going to say right
now?
Uh you'll be right at arelationship.
And the guy goes, I know, butI'm right.
(11:41):
I go, does that matter?
And it so it challenges that.
So that's the beginning part,is to see, just trying to find
someplace where they value adifferent way of thinking about
some things.
But then there are honestlypeople that are so locked into
their personalities that theycan't they just can't do it.
Even if I'm controversial withthe culture today, and I try to
(12:05):
if they hate this person, I'lltalk about the other person.
And they some people will havea really difficult time.
And I that then I ask you, Ipoint out that these people you
seem to hate, you don't evenknow.
So then it's a part of yourselftypically that you're out of
touch with.
Well, uh that's that can thatcan hit on lots of people in a
(12:25):
good way.
People that are pretty rigid,that that's like it goes right
over their heads.
I can't do the hand motionsbecause we're just doing talk,
talk.
But anyway.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
But that verbal thing of that comes across well.
Yeah, absolutely.
You made a comment about uh anindividual saying, but I am
right.
And for me, one of theindicators of flexible thinking
is someone who will acknowledgethat there may be more than one
(13:01):
right about a given situation.
And that's hard for some peopleto take into the fact that,
okay, let's say you are right.
Is there not another way tolook at this that is also right?
That sometimes is a pathway toget a person who's hell-bent on
being right to start to see thatthere are other possibilities
(13:25):
of what right looks like in thisgiven situation.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, I I've often said too with couples uh
specifically that okay, I I'llgo with you being right.
If you can factually provebeyond a shadow of a doubt that
you're what you're saying istrue, then okay, we can we can
have that discussion, andperhaps then you prove your
partner wrong.
Okay, great.
Now, and sometimes that's veryimportant.
(13:51):
The facts are important toprove someone right or wrong.
But ultimately to assess, isthis really to use the classic
thing, the hill I want to die onwhen it comes to my
relationship?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah.
unknown (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
And there will, you know, in my mind, with couples
especially, they're all lookingfor validation.
They're all looking for sometrauma to be healed by being
agreed with.
Because, you know, we know thatthe older we get, the more of
that stuff, it just doesn'tmatter.
And you know, it takes it takesthe aging process sometimes to
get you to that point.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah.
You're right.
You used a story in one of yourwritings that takes us back to
childhood and use the image of ateeter-tonter.
Tell us that story and how foryou it relates to creating
emotional safety.
Just space.
Could you remind me of thestory?
I think it was, if I recallcorrectly, you walking up a
(14:47):
teeter totter making that spacein the middle that holds it in
balance.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I used to go to the playground by myself a lot, and
there was always teeter-totters.
And uh that was one of thethings I always would do.
I'd walk up a teeter-totter andI'd get to the middle place
where I could balance it in themiddle.
Yeah, that's true.
I'd forgotten I'd written that.
Yeah.
And that that that also wasinteresting because it
compensated for not havingsomeone there.
So I could actually play backand forth with both legs.
(15:15):
So I could I couldn't do thefull teeter-totter, but I could
do it.
And then, you know, it wasalways fun to try to run off the
other end.
I mean, it was all and arethere still teeter-totters?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
There are still teeter-totters.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Are there?
Oh, that's cool.
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
But yeah, I think they're in small towns that have
not been affected by safetyrules and regulations.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Oh yes, that's probably that's probably very
true.
Because I'm sure what I wasdoing, there were many times I
had failed and I went off thewrong the other side.
But yeah, that was always a thechallenge was to find that
sweet spot where you feltbalanced.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah.
And the whole reason I broughtup that story was your opening
line about I used to often go tothe playground by myself.
So it was really more aboutthat by myself issue that I
wanted to bring up and talkabout how.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Oh no, you know, I've I've spent years going to the
playground by myself.
Thankfully, occasionally you'veyou've joined me on the
playground that becomes thedesert.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And I know when it's time to let you be by yourself.
So so take us a little bitfurther about being held hostage
by the past, because that's oneof the issues that keeps
somebody from finding thatemotionally balanced life.
Is this takes us way back toour opening few episodes about
(16:42):
looking back to be able to moveforward, being held hostage by
events or voices in our life.
And sometimes it's difficult toeven bring that to the surface.
Other times it's so much in thesurface that it's hard to see
anything else in life becauseit's still so dominant.
But unpacking that is tied intothe whole notion of recognizing
(17:08):
the judgment that we place onourselves.
Work us through how we try andprocess our own self-judgment
that holds us hostage.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well, though the the end of it all is the hostage uh
is not external, the hostage isinternal.
So as long as I ruminate or Ientertain the possibility, once
again, what I said earlier, thatsome external force is going to
heal that in me, I'm heldhostage.
(17:40):
And it's so difficult to get toa place where I have to give up
the idea that some externalforce is going to bring.
Now, it's not to dis it's notto say that relationships in
your life can can amelioratethat or really touch that and
begin to really affect asoothingness about it.
(18:02):
But it's like it's likehappiness and sadness.
It's not a constant.
It comes and goes.
So there are people that willcome in and it will feel like
this is my soulmate, this is theperson that's going to make me
better, and they do.
Absolutely, they will make youbetter.
But there usually, almostalways, there comes an endpoint
to where that pattern inside theindividual becomes stronger
(18:23):
than the effects of therelationship.
And that's where people getdiscouraged in relationships and
they'll say, I I can't, I can'thelp you.
And that's where they defeattheir partners, oftentimes.
And so a lot of times that'swhen they'll begin therapy and
they'll say, I've I've gonethrough this relationship, my
husband, my wife says this, ormy partner says this, and it
(18:47):
must be me.
And that that's that's a reallygood start, obviously.
When they don't come in and sayit's it's obviously me, but
they come in and say, my wife nolonger does this, my partner no
longer does that, then it'slike, okay, well, why do you
think?
Well, they say they're justtired.
I go, oh, that's interesting.
What are they tired of?
Well, they're tired of they saythat they can't help me
(19:09):
anymore.
And that's an insight that canspark some kind of awareness.
But the hostage part really isabout I'm held hostage to the
idea that someone else is goingto help me.
I'm and to to promote my ownfield, therapy can help.
Dream workers can help.
So I'm not saying they don't,but that's where I said earlier
(19:32):
that lady that said to me,Nobody's coming to rescue me.
Yeah.
Because a part of us alwayswant to be rescued.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah.
And it is that's a breakthroughmoment to take ownership for
it.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Um especially in a culture that's really resisting
that.
I uh listened to uh a littlebit of a podcast about the
damage the boomers have done tothe to the millennials because
they they provided such acomfortable life that they they
gave the millennials an illusionthat life was going to be
pretty easy and comfortable.
And then when it doesn't turnout, they're they're mad at
(20:08):
their parents or they're mad atthe boomers because the the
boomers set up set this wholething up in that sense.
So Interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I had a client earlier this week.
Part of the discussion wastrying to get this person to
look inward, but also to beaware of how life happens around
him.
And the discussion moved towardis the energy flowing from
inward to outward or fromoutward to inward.
We often talk about the outwardbeing a projection of the
(20:39):
inward, but it's also true thatif we have very little
self-awareness, all the externalstuff is in many ways dictating
how we feel, how we move, howwe make decisions.
And the invitation of others tobe in my life as a method to
(21:00):
fix me or help me is themovement of that outward in.
Sometimes that's good if you'vegot a healthy person that's
engaged in your life, andsometimes it's hard.
And it's not justrelationships, it can be
vocational problems.
And the advantage of m livingfrom inward out is that there is
(21:24):
less fluctuation of the effectof the environment or other
people if you become aware ofyour own identity, of who you
are and who you want to be, youface the external with the
filter being those things withinthat help you live your life.
(21:45):
And so that energy flow fromthe inward to the outward leads
to in my experience, individualswho feel far more in control of
their destiny, far more intouch with their feelings, far
more alive in theirrelationships, and not dependent
on the other person to responda particular way in order for
(22:05):
them to feel happy.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah, and that that's another challenging aspect of
it because uh, you know, thelocus of control scale, where
people are either internally orexternally controlled, uh that's
a hard shift to get people tosee that if they're extremely
externally controlled, that theycan actually take charge
because they're so aware oftheir environment and how it
affects their moods.
And they actually like it, butthey also hate it at the same
(22:29):
time.
So yeah, that's that's a greatpoint.
And we can say that the well,that's the maturing process when
you realize that that aspect ofit.
But I also know that whenyou're externally driven and it
you're typically the life of theparty, you're fun, you don't
you just keep moving forward,all that stuff.
It's like it's hard to gettheir attention to see that,
well, did you notice that whenthat person walked in the room,
(22:50):
your energy changed or anythinglike that?
And they'll say, Well, yeah,because I they hate me, or
whatever that is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And uh, but then some people are so strong and so
charismatic that they don't payattention to that at all, and
they take over the room.
And so they would say externthey create the external forces.
Uh, and that's always anotherdynamic try to get them to see
that, okay, you may control theenvironment, but that's your
(23:18):
need, is to control theenvironment to keep you feeling
safe, back to what we do tocreate emotional safety for
ourselves.
There's obviously unconsciousways that we form as a kid that
that we handle the way we handleit.
And then as we become moreconscious, we say, okay, do I
need to go in and take over aroom, or can I go and just be a
part of the room?
Or if I if I'm a person thatwants to just be a part of the
(23:41):
room, can I go over and takeover the room?
It's always interesting to tryto play around with the dynamics
of that we naturally have.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah.
It seems to me, specifically,the individual who controls
their environment a great dealis attracted to and attracts
people who are okay with thatinitially.
Yeah.
They they feed on the energythat that person provides.
And sometimes that personprovides a mask for them so they
(24:12):
don't have to be fully honest.
But there comes a time whenthat control of the other is is
no longer as welcome as it oncewas.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I have a couple right now where his wife's a husband
wife, so the wife is a toughaudience, and he really likes to
be funny.
And uh I know where this isgoing.
And he said, I I don't, Idon't, I don't make her laugh
anymore.
And I go, well, and she goes,Well, occasionally you do.
I said, but you gotta be yougotta be really good to make her
(24:44):
laugh, right?
And he goes, Yeah.
And I don't think she thinksI'm that funny.
I go, well, you may not be.
And then she goes, no, he'sfunny to everybody else, but
I've heard all that stuff.
It's like, but you know, so butsometimes he still makes me
laugh.
She goes, he goes, I love itwhen I make her laugh.
And I go, Well, you chosesomeone that makes it difficult
to laugh.
(25:05):
It's a bigger challenge.
So now we're upset by that.
And he goes, Well, she used tolaugh easier.
Well, she probably laughedeasier because she was trying to
placate you.
She when she said, Well, yeah,lots of times I didn't think it
was that funny, but I laugh.
So it's so interesting how itit's like a little kid wanting,
(25:26):
you know, wanting and he saidit's so important.
Then he finally stopped and hegoes, you know, I guess maybe
it's not that important.
And I go, Well, maybe not.
I said, because again, that'sthat's how you that's how you
use yourself to be safe withyourself, to use humor.
So I pointed out to him, Isaid, Yeah, in my own personal
life, that if you ask me to saysomething serious, I'm always
(25:48):
gonna say something funny at theend, because it distracts from
the seriousness of it, becauseit hasn't been as comfortable
for me to be serious all thetime.
I said, I worked on that thelast 10 years or so, but I said
my my default setting is if youask me to say anything
emotional, I'm always gonna I'mgonna be tempted to say
something funny at the end of itfor my own safety, my own
(26:10):
emotional needs.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah. I love the disclosure there at the end
because I sometimes think withemotional safety zones that when
I'm interacting withindividuals, I get them to say
something I don't I present theopportunity and they take it to
say something that's emotionallyhonest and transparent.
And the amount of time betweenthat statement and something
(26:36):
that is either dismissive,explanatory, logical, explains
it away, sometimes is less thana second.
Like they get the one phraseout and immediately they have to
follow it by some kind ofmediating language.
And I'll just smile and I say,so once again, is it possible
(27:00):
for you to say it withoutqualifying it?
And it that that emotionalsafety zone only lasts so long
for some people It's so true.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I'm smiling because I had a client this last week who
I made an interpretation and itwas pretty important.
And he he stopped for a secondand thought about it, and then
he went on with something else,and then he stopped.
He goes, Did you want me to sitwith that longer?
And I said, Well, whateveryou're comfortable with.
(27:30):
So he he kept he kept going onwith what he wanted to shift to.
But yeah, exactly your point.
It's it's really interestinghow quickly we minimize sitting
with difficult emotions, oremotions that that are
important.
We just dismiss easily becausewe're uncomfortable with it, or
whatever our little story in ourhead is.
(27:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And that discomfort is typically compounded if we
are in the presence of someoneelse.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Absolutely.
And the masculine doesn't wantto set with difficult emotions
anyway.
They want to explain it away.
So the quicker I can explain itaway, we're good, right?
Yes, right.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I did the assignment, right?
Can we go on?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Exactly.
And so I'm feeling it.
Now what?
What do I okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah.
Good place for us to wrap up.
Uh because we completed theassignment and I don't want to
sit in there feeling anymore.
Great to be with you as always,Jen.
We'll come back next week andhit this.
Probably continue a little bitfurther in bringing all of the
different parts of ourselvestogether and living in a way
(28:37):
that's balanced and whole andhealthy and what that might look
like.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
And at the risk of being a little ner nervous, if
you if people that have listenedto this find it somewhat
helpful, they can comment on it.
If you didn't find it helpful,okay.
You can you can still comment,but uh, you know, we're we're
we're we're healthy, but notcompletely healthy.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
That's right.
We'll listen to it, but wewon't sit with it too long.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Exactly right.
Negative comment will go, oh,oh, okay.
Then we'll move on.
Anyway.
Great to be with you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, anduntil next time, keep growing,
stay curious, and take good careof yourself.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelley, and I'm herewith my co-host, Jim Shalley.
We're a coach and a therapistwho love talking about how inner
work can help you with moreawareness, purpose, and freedom.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
When you miss that connection with a parent in a in
a healthy way, as I sayoftentimes, it's it's it's not
fair at all to then realize thatyou can go on a search for
someone out here in your life toheal that, but ultimately it's
the mirror that you take a lookat and go, wait a minute,
there's no one coming to rescueme.
One of my clients, longlong-term client, a couple of
(00:52):
years ago finally came to thatrealization.
No one's coming to rescue me,are they?
And then they said, Not evenyou, and I said, Not even me.
And that's pretty sobering.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah.
And I part of that soberingfeeling is it's kind of in a
real a realization of beingalone.
And then being okay with thatso that you then can no longer
need to be alone.
Yeah, absolutely.
(01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
This is a tangent, but are most are most of the
things that we do tangents?
Yeah, they are.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I just it which it which just creates more work for
me to edit it to get ittogether.
But I was thinking of themasculine, feminine stuff we
were talking about the last fewweeks, and I came across an old
dream in a journal, and I endedup using it as an example in a
(01:58):
opening of chapter for what I'vebeen working on.
But the dream was I'm in atheater watching a presentation
in a theater.
I'm in a theater, yeah.
Watching a dramaticpresentation, and the male is
(02:20):
trying to persuade the female tospend a weekend or something
like that at the cabin that youcan see on a pole in the
distance behind them.
And her name was Poppy Seed,and she was about the size of a
poppy seed.
And the recognition that in mylife there are times when the
(02:47):
feminine voice is so dismissedfrom my life.
And as the ego in the theater,I found it incredibly humorous,
and I thought if I was onlyfilming this, this would be an
instant classic, which for meimplied that this is the classic
(03:08):
way that I sometimes deal withthe feminine.
I just give it no space becauseI know I'm right.
It's back to this thing.
You know, you know you'reright, and so you dismiss the
other voices, not onlyexternally, but in many ways,
more importantly, internally.
Because it's tough to listen tothat externally until you've
dealt with that internally.
But it was poppy seed was thefeminine voice in my lobby.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Anyway, well, you know, the poppy seed, it's uh it
can go the other extreme as atransformer addictions and
things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
Those images are so subjective.
Yeah.
But I'm pretty certain this wasmy minimum.
Pretty certain at all you do.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah.
So how so uh uh anothertangent.
So how do you how do you gengenerally uh hear the feminine
in your life?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I I don't want to lose what you just said.
I I will say that that notionof poppy seed being a uh a a
drug of sorts is interesting toview the feminine as that
seductive aphrodisiac and thatthat's what the feminine voice
is as opposed to be being avoice that actually has
(04:23):
something to say.
So yeah, that's okay.
Great insight there, Dr.
Shalley.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Well, I mean it it's it it the whole imagery of sex
in a sense that the masculinejust takes it and the feminine
seduces.
I mean there's differentapproaches anyway.
So back to the Those areextreme expressions of those
energies, I'm just saying.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Uh for that clarification.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh my goodness.
So what did you ask about thefeminine voice of my life?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah.
How how do you hear it, or doyou hear it, or just dismiss it
all the time?
And what what characteristic isit of the feminine voice?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's all it's tough to know.
It's tough to know when it'sshrunk that much.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, there's a nurturing one, and then there's
a static one that basicallytries to integrate a little bit
of the masculine by bringingorder to things by reminding you
of what needs to happen andwhat you need to bring, what you
need to take.
It's that's what's sointeresting about the feminine
energy.
It's relationally driven, butit can be interpreted oftentimes
in a negative form as opposedto the positive aspects of it.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I think one of the thingsthat I hope is true is that was
an older journal, and it waslike kind of a wake-up call in
my life.
Okay, good.
So clarifying.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
No, okay.
Now it's perfect.
It's perfectly integrated.
Okay, I get it.
I get it.
No, it's like it's like beingreminded of did you remember to
lock the door?
That's a feminine energyrelationally driven.
Don't let you know, let's nothave anything happen, bad
happen, but oftentimes can beirritating to someone who's
(06:18):
here.
Of course I lock the door.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah.
Um, and I your question'slegitimate, though.
Uh if that has at times in mylife been minimized for any
number of reasons.
Can be family of origin, can beexperiences, can be all kinds
of reasons why you minimize aparticular expression of
yourself.
How do you protect yourselffrom not returning to that old
(06:45):
pattern when stress levels goup?
Because we tend to, when thingsget stressful, retreat to that
which is most familiarhistorically in our life.
And I think one of those one ofthe ways by which I do that is
to actually put into practicethe nurturing of some of those
(07:05):
other sides.
So uh growing up, music was nota big part of my life.
Art was not a part of my lifeat all.
So an example is yesterday Iwas in San Diego, has an
absolutely beautiful downtownpublic library, and up on the
ninth floor is art gallery, andwalked through the art gallery
(07:27):
and took my time, read some ofthe descriptions, tried to look
at things that I wouldn'tnormally look at.
Well, that is putting intopractice, trying to nurture a
side of me that's not the way inwhich I grew up or natural, so
that when stress levels go up,there is a context recently in
(07:48):
my life of something that isnurturing that side and helping
it to grow.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
And that's a great example of uh acknowledging the
parts of ourselves that need tobe nurtured externally.
And that's why people do thingsall the time, all the time, and
they they're not sure why theydo them.
And from my perspective, it'snurturing an aspect of
themselves they're not fullyaware of.
(08:13):
So to make that that kind ofconscious choice to be aware
that, okay, I'm going toappreciate art, something I
would never do.
Okay, what does that symbolizeinside of myself?
What am I what am I reallyneeding to nurture inside of me?
Yeah.
And it's the creative, it's thecreative energy that we all
have, that we all have.
Some have it bigger andbrighter than others, but we all
(08:34):
do.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I there's a real practical outgrowth in that, and
not just this art installation,but ones that I'm attracted to
are ones that make you kind ofturn your head and go, what was
the artist thinking here orfeeling here?
And it triggers inside of methe motivation to allow my work
(08:59):
or my writing or my interactionsto take into account things
that aren't in my visualperception right now.
What is it that I'm not seeing?
What is it that that is apossibility that I would have
never considered if I was stuckin this organizational framework
or spreadsheet framework?
And so, yeah, it has some realwonderful advantages, some of
(09:24):
which are incredibly practical,and others are just downright
enjoyable because you experiencesomething you haven't thought
of before.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, and the phrase I use in therapy a lot is uh
emotional well-being hasflexibility of thinking as a
core ingredient.
And so what we're talking aboutreally is pushing your thinking
style to all different aspectsof it.
That's back to your originalcontext.
That's that's one of thereasons how we become safe
(09:52):
emotionally.
When we can push ourselvesoutside of our own comfort and
our own thinking styles toembrace others' thinking styles,
then we're safe for ourselves,and then oftentimes we then
become safe for others to feelcomfortable expressing their
pain, their traumas, all thosethings.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So I'm a person who comes to you and you perceive
pretty quickly that mythinking's pretty inflexible.
Most likely I have no idea thatthat's true and would push back
on you if you brought it up.
How do you try and leadsomebody to the place of seeing
(10:32):
that their thinking isinflexible?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Obviously, the older we get, the more challenging
that is.
So if you have someone who's intheir 60s that come in and you
can pretty much tell right awaythey are they are so locked into
their way of thinking.
And if they're in arelationship, I usually ask,
describe your partner and theirpersonality style.
And it's almost alwaysdiametrically opposed to how
(10:58):
they think.
And I said, Is there any valuein how they think?
And that can usually, if theystill have a favorable feeling
towards that person, that canbegin to see that, okay, there
is a different way of thinkingabout things.
And then of course the classicthing is, do you want to be
right or have a relationship?
It's you know, it's that soundsvery trite and simple, but it
(11:19):
it's profound in its in itsimplications.
Uh I had a I did a Zoom sessionwith a couple this week, and
they're both very strong-willedand very successful in their own
fields, and they clash all thetime with that same thing.
It's like, and I will repeat,so what am I going to say right
now?
Uh you'll be right at arelationship.
And the guy goes, I know, butI'm right.
(11:41):
I go, does that matter?
And it so it challenges that.
So that's the beginning part,is to see, just trying to find
someplace where they value adifferent way of thinking about
some things.
But then there are honestlypeople that are so locked into
their personalities that theycan't they just can't do it.
Even if I'm controversial withthe culture today, and I try to
(12:05):
if they hate this person, I'lltalk about the other person.
And they some people will havea really difficult time.
And I that then I ask you, Ipoint out that these people you
seem to hate, you don't evenknow.
So then it's a part of yourselftypically that you're out of
touch with.
Well, uh that's that can thatcan hit on lots of people in a
(12:25):
good way.
People that are pretty rigid,that that's like it goes right
over their heads.
I can't do the hand motionsbecause we're just doing talk,
talk.
But anyway.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
But that verbal thing of that comes across well.
Yeah, absolutely.
You made a comment about uh anindividual saying, but I am
right.
And for me, one of theindicators of flexible thinking
is someone who will acknowledgethat there may be more than one
(13:01):
right about a given situation.
And that's hard for some peopleto take into the fact that,
okay, let's say you are right.
Is there not another way tolook at this that is also right?
That sometimes is a pathway toget a person who's hell-bent on
being right to start to see thatthere are other possibilities
(13:25):
of what right looks like in thisgiven situation.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, I I've often said too with couples uh
specifically that okay, I I'llgo with you being right.
If you can factually provebeyond a shadow of a doubt that
you're what you're saying istrue, then okay, we can we can
have that discussion, andperhaps then you prove your
partner wrong.
Okay, great.
Now, and sometimes that's veryimportant.
(13:51):
The facts are important toprove someone right or wrong.
But ultimately to assess, isthis really to use the classic
thing, the hill I want to die onwhen it comes to my
relationship?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah.
unknown (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
And there will, you know, in my mind, with couples
especially, they're all lookingfor validation.
They're all looking for sometrauma to be healed by being
agreed with.
Because, you know, we know thatthe older we get, the more of
that stuff, it just doesn'tmatter.
And you know, it takes it takesthe aging process sometimes to
get you to that point.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah.
You're right.
You used a story in one of yourwritings that takes us back to
childhood and use the image of ateeter-tonter.
Tell us that story and how foryou it relates to creating
emotional safety.
Just space.
Could you remind me of thestory?
I think it was, if I recallcorrectly, you walking up a
(14:47):
teeter totter making that spacein the middle that holds it in
balance.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I used to go to the playground by myself a lot, and
there was always teeter-totters.
And uh that was one of thethings I always would do.
I'd walk up a teeter-totter andI'd get to the middle place
where I could balance it in themiddle.
Yeah, that's true.
I'd forgotten I'd written that.
Yeah.
And that that that also wasinteresting because it
compensated for not havingsomeone there.
So I could actually play backand forth with both legs.
(15:15):
So I could I couldn't do thefull teeter-totter, but I could
do it.
And then, you know, it wasalways fun to try to run off the
other end.
I mean, it was all and arethere still teeter-totters?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
There are still teeter-totters.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Are there?
Oh, that's cool.
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
But yeah, I think they're in small towns that have
not been affected by safetyrules and regulations.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Oh yes, that's probably that's probably very
true.
Because I'm sure what I wasdoing, there were many times I
had failed and I went off thewrong the other side.
But yeah, that was always a thechallenge was to find that
sweet spot where you feltbalanced.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah.
And the whole reason I broughtup that story was your opening
line about I used to often go tothe playground by myself.
So it was really more aboutthat by myself issue that I
wanted to bring up and talkabout how.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Oh no, you know, I've I've spent years going to the
playground by myself.
Thankfully, occasionally you'veyou've joined me on the
playground that becomes thedesert.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And I know when it's time to let you be by yourself.
So so take us a little bitfurther about being held hostage
by the past, because that's oneof the issues that keeps
somebody from finding thatemotionally balanced life.
Is this takes us way back toour opening few episodes about
(16:42):
looking back to be able to moveforward, being held hostage by
events or voices in our life.
And sometimes it's difficult toeven bring that to the surface.
Other times it's so much in thesurface that it's hard to see
anything else in life becauseit's still so dominant.
But unpacking that is tied intothe whole notion of recognizing
(17:08):
the judgment that we place onourselves.
Work us through how we try andprocess our own self-judgment
that holds us hostage.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well, though the the end of it all is the hostage uh
is not external, the hostage isinternal.
So as long as I ruminate or Ientertain the possibility, once
again, what I said earlier, thatsome external force is going to
heal that in me, I'm heldhostage.
(17:40):
And it's so difficult to get toa place where I have to give up
the idea that some externalforce is going to bring.
Now, it's not to dis it's notto say that relationships in
your life can can amelioratethat or really touch that and
begin to really affect asoothingness about it.
(18:02):
But it's like it's likehappiness and sadness.
It's not a constant.
It comes and goes.
So there are people that willcome in and it will feel like
this is my soulmate, this is theperson that's going to make me
better, and they do.
Absolutely, they will make youbetter.
But there usually, almostalways, there comes an endpoint
to where that pattern inside theindividual becomes stronger
(18:23):
than the effects of therelationship.
And that's where people getdiscouraged in relationships and
they'll say, I I can't, I can'thelp you.
And that's where they defeattheir partners, oftentimes.
And so a lot of times that'swhen they'll begin therapy and
they'll say, I've I've gonethrough this relationship, my
husband, my wife says this, ormy partner says this, and it
(18:47):
must be me.
And that that's that's a reallygood start, obviously.
When they don't come in and sayit's it's obviously me, but
they come in and say, my wife nolonger does this, my partner no
longer does that, then it'slike, okay, well, why do you
think?
Well, they say they're justtired.
I go, oh, that's interesting.
What are they tired of?
Well, they're tired of they saythat they can't help me
(19:09):
anymore.
And that's an insight that canspark some kind of awareness.
But the hostage part really isabout I'm held hostage to the
idea that someone else is goingto help me.
I'm and to to promote my ownfield, therapy can help.
Dream workers can help.
So I'm not saying they don't,but that's where I said earlier
(19:32):
that lady that said to me,Nobody's coming to rescue me.
Yeah.
Because a part of us alwayswant to be rescued.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah.
And it is that's a breakthroughmoment to take ownership for
it.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Um especially in a culture that's really resisting
that.
I uh listened to uh a littlebit of a podcast about the
damage the boomers have done tothe to the millennials because
they they provided such acomfortable life that they they
gave the millennials an illusionthat life was going to be
pretty easy and comfortable.
And then when it doesn't turnout, they're they're mad at
(20:08):
their parents or they're mad atthe boomers because the the
boomers set up set this wholething up in that sense.
So Interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I had a client earlier this week.
Part of the discussion wastrying to get this person to
look inward, but also to beaware of how life happens around
him.
And the discussion moved towardis the energy flowing from
inward to outward or fromoutward to inward.
We often talk about the outwardbeing a projection of the
(20:39):
inward, but it's also true thatif we have very little
self-awareness, all the externalstuff is in many ways dictating
how we feel, how we move, howwe make decisions.
And the invitation of others tobe in my life as a method to
(21:00):
fix me or help me is themovement of that outward in.
Sometimes that's good if you'vegot a healthy person that's
engaged in your life, andsometimes it's hard.
And it's not justrelationships, it can be
vocational problems.
And the advantage of m livingfrom inward out is that there is
(21:24):
less fluctuation of the effectof the environment or other
people if you become aware ofyour own identity, of who you
are and who you want to be, youface the external with the
filter being those things withinthat help you live your life.
(21:45):
And so that energy flow fromthe inward to the outward leads
to in my experience, individualswho feel far more in control of
their destiny, far more intouch with their feelings, far
more alive in theirrelationships, and not dependent
on the other person to responda particular way in order for
(22:05):
them to feel happy.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah, and that that's another challenging aspect of
it because uh, you know, thelocus of control scale, where
people are either internally orexternally controlled, uh that's
a hard shift to get people tosee that if they're extremely
externally controlled, that theycan actually take charge
because they're so aware oftheir environment and how it
affects their moods.
And they actually like it, butthey also hate it at the same
(22:29):
time.
So yeah, that's that's a greatpoint.
And we can say that the well,that's the maturing process when
you realize that that aspect ofit.
But I also know that whenyou're externally driven and it
you're typically the life of theparty, you're fun, you don't
you just keep moving forward,all that stuff.
It's like it's hard to gettheir attention to see that,
well, did you notice that whenthat person walked in the room,
(22:50):
your energy changed or anythinglike that?
And they'll say, Well, yeah,because I they hate me, or
whatever that is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And uh, but then some people are so strong and so
charismatic that they don't payattention to that at all, and
they take over the room.
And so they would say externthey create the external forces.
Uh, and that's always anotherdynamic try to get them to see
that, okay, you may control theenvironment, but that's your
(23:18):
need, is to control theenvironment to keep you feeling
safe, back to what we do tocreate emotional safety for
ourselves.
There's obviously unconsciousways that we form as a kid that
that we handle the way we handleit.
And then as we become moreconscious, we say, okay, do I
need to go in and take over aroom, or can I go and just be a
part of the room?
Or if I if I'm a person thatwants to just be a part of the
(23:41):
room, can I go over and takeover the room?
It's always interesting to tryto play around with the dynamics
of that we naturally have.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah.
It seems to me, specifically,the individual who controls
their environment a great dealis attracted to and attracts
people who are okay with thatinitially.
Yeah.
They they feed on the energythat that person provides.
And sometimes that personprovides a mask for them so they
(24:12):
don't have to be fully honest.
But there comes a time whenthat control of the other is is
no longer as welcome as it oncewas.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I have a couple right now where his wife's a husband
wife, so the wife is a toughaudience, and he really likes to
be funny.
And uh I know where this isgoing.
And he said, I I don't, Idon't, I don't make her laugh
anymore.
And I go, well, and she goes,Well, occasionally you do.
I said, but you gotta be yougotta be really good to make her
(24:44):
laugh, right?
And he goes, Yeah.
And I don't think she thinksI'm that funny.
I go, well, you may not be.
And then she goes, no, he'sfunny to everybody else, but
I've heard all that stuff.
It's like, but you know, so butsometimes he still makes me
laugh.
She goes, he goes, I love itwhen I make her laugh.
And I go, Well, you chosesomeone that makes it difficult
to laugh.
(25:05):
It's a bigger challenge.
So now we're upset by that.
And he goes, Well, she used tolaugh easier.
Well, she probably laughedeasier because she was trying to
placate you.
She when she said, Well, yeah,lots of times I didn't think it
was that funny, but I laugh.
So it's so interesting how itit's like a little kid wanting,
(25:26):
you know, wanting and he saidit's so important.
Then he finally stopped and hegoes, you know, I guess maybe
it's not that important.
And I go, Well, maybe not.
I said, because again, that'sthat's how you that's how you
use yourself to be safe withyourself, to use humor.
So I pointed out to him, Isaid, Yeah, in my own personal
life, that if you ask me to saysomething serious, I'm always
(25:48):
gonna say something funny at theend, because it distracts from
the seriousness of it, becauseit hasn't been as comfortable
for me to be serious all thetime.
I said, I worked on that thelast 10 years or so, but I said
my my default setting is if youask me to say anything
emotional, I'm always gonna I'mgonna be tempted to say
something funny at the end of itfor my own safety, my own
(26:10):
emotional needs.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah. I love the disclosure there at the end
because I sometimes think withemotional safety zones that when
I'm interacting withindividuals, I get them to say
something I don't I present theopportunity and they take it to
say something that's emotionallyhonest and transparent.
And the amount of time betweenthat statement and something
(26:36):
that is either dismissive,explanatory, logical, explains
it away, sometimes is less thana second.
Like they get the one phraseout and immediately they have to
follow it by some kind ofmediating language.
And I'll just smile and I say,so once again, is it possible
(27:00):
for you to say it withoutqualifying it?
And it that that emotionalsafety zone only lasts so long
for some people It's so true.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I'm smiling because I had a client this last week who
I made an interpretation and itwas pretty important.
And he he stopped for a secondand thought about it, and then
he went on with something else,and then he stopped.
He goes, Did you want me to sitwith that longer?
And I said, Well, whateveryou're comfortable with.
(27:30):
So he he kept he kept going onwith what he wanted to shift to.
But yeah, exactly your point.
It's it's really interestinghow quickly we minimize sitting
with difficult emotions, oremotions that that are
important.
We just dismiss easily becausewe're uncomfortable with it, or
whatever our little story in ourhead is.
(27:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And that discomfort is typically compounded if we
are in the presence of someoneelse.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Absolutely.
And the masculine doesn't wantto set with difficult emotions
anyway.
They want to explain it away.
So the quicker I can explain itaway, we're good, right?
Yes, right.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I did the assignment, right?
Can we go on?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Exactly.
And so I'm feeling it.
Now what?
What do I okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah.
Good place for us to wrap up.
Uh because we completed theassignment and I don't want to
sit in there feeling anymore.
Great to be with you as always,Jen.
We'll come back next week andhit this.
Probably continue a little bitfurther in bringing all of the
different parts of ourselvestogether and living in a way
(28:37):
that's balanced and whole andhealthy and what that might look
like.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
And at the risk of being a little ner nervous, if
you if people that have listenedto this find it somewhat
helpful, they can comment on it.
If you didn't find it helpful,okay.
You can you can still comment,but uh, you know, we're we're
we're we're healthy, but notcompletely healthy.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
That's right.
We'll listen to it, but wewon't sit with it too long.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Exactly right.
Negative comment will go, oh,oh, okay.
Then we'll move on.
Anyway.
Great to be with you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, anduntil next time, keep growing,
stay curious, and take good careof yourself.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
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