December 24, 2025 • 27 mins
The hardest part of growing up isn’t getting older—it’s seeing yourself clearly. We start with a raw reaction to a public figure’s killing and follow the thread into how midlife shakes our beliefs, our relationships, and the stories we tell about who we are. That shift often arrives as discomfort: a spouse says “I’m unhappy,” a job that once thrilled now numbs, a faith you inherited asks to be re-examined. Instead of treating these alarms as failures, we frame them as invitations to look inward with more honesty and less panic.
We break down the small moments that quietly drain connection. We offer a straightforward tool to stop the late-night spiral. We also map how personality differences feed the gridlock: static partners protect harmony; dynamic partners push change. Both have value when we stop using them as weapons and start using them as wisdom.
We go deeper on anger and forgiveness, especially the fear that letting go means someone “got away with it.” Holding on can feel righteous, but it keeps you emotionally married to the past. We explore how to release resentment without denying harm, and how to honor the beliefs that formed you without freezing in them. The result is a kinder, clearer path through the noisy middle—one where intimacy means staying present for hard conversations, not avoiding them, and where growth doesn’t require contempt for your origins.
If this conversation sparked something—about your marriage, your work, or your faith—share it with a friend who’s in their own midlife pivot. Subscribe for more candid tools and stories, and leave a review to tell us what you want us to tackle next.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
And um I'm embracing uh the old man in me, you know
what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Nice, nice.
I don't know.
Do you have to click that you'rewilling to do the recording or
does it do it?
SPEAKER_02 (00:12):
Yes, I do, and I haven't clicked it yet because
I'm not sure I want to recordthis.
SPEAKER_01 (00:20):
Oh man, when did you get out there?
Did you get out there lastnight?
SPEAKER_02 (00:24):
Uh I did.
Uh guess who uh wanted to havedinner?
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Um Cheryl.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Oh my word.
Uh I would have said no, sir.
Oh, Catherine.
Oh, oh.
She's uh, you know, it's sofunny.
She knew.
So at the end of the we haddinner at some pizza place, and
at the end, uh I said, you know,you know, me, whenever you need
(00:55):
to call, call.
She's I know, I knew you thoughtthat things uh turned a corner
with this relationship, and Iwas like, I'm no longer like
deeply infatuated in love.
And I went, Yep, that's why youcalled.
She goes, I knew you'd thinkthat, and you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Uh this is how she gets free therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
How does that it's uh I I don't care anymore.
Just like she just calls me andI go, and it was funny because
she didn't she asked about theAlaska trip a little bit, but
mainly it was about her guyshe's in love with finally they
have to be apart because she hasa kid, so for five days they
don't see each other, and so andhe's not with her, he thinks
(01:42):
about things, and so finally hesaid to her, you know, I have an
incredible support group in mylife.
Uh these uh my mother and thesea lot of these women, they just
they're so encouraging to me.
And I've noticed that you youjust don't aren't as encouraging
to them to me.
It was like for her, it was likebing bing bing bing.
I said, Well, yeah, you'redating a woman.
(02:04):
What are you talking about here?
So, and I said, It's gonna pushyou to the masculine side.
You already have a strongmasculine side.
She goes, I know, but I think Icould, I think I could marry
him.
I go, Okay, that's that's fine.
Although she did pull back andshe goes, I was gonna I was
ready to introduce him to herson because she has to wait six
months, and she goes, All of asudden, I went, Mm, nope, I
(02:27):
gotta sort this out and see ifhe just wants to be a woman or
not.
And I well, you know, lesbianismseems to be the way of the day,
so let's go.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Anyway, uh why does she have to wait six months?
What's that about?
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Part of the divorce agreement can't introduce new
people to your kid, even thoughher ex did, so which your uh
eight-year-old son reminds herof.
Dad did, why don't you?
Anyway.
So interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
I've never I've never heard of that as being
part of a divorce agreement.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah, they both agreed on it, but then he didn't
follow it.
So she said, I'm gonna follow itbecause I that's what I do.
Anyway, it was just funny.
We had a nice visit, it wasfine, but it's just interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
Well, it's it's nice that uh it evolved into a nice
friendship.
SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, on uh you know, for her.
I'm I'm very okay with that.
It's like, yeah, that's fine.
I ain't uh I ain't sittingaround waiting on anybody
anymore except D.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Did uh did she ever try and get you to reconnect
with the friend that's uh 10years her senior or something?
No.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
No, no, she's 30 years her senior.
Oh 30 years, wow.
Yeah, she's she's 60 something.
Nope, she kind of got themessage real clear.
I mean, when you say kind ofoverwhelmed, and she's a big
woman.
I don't mean that in a bad way.
What kind of maybe I do?
I mean, not a heavy fat, butjust big woman, you know what
(04:00):
I'm saying?
Big presence?
Yeah, I would feel like uh, youknow, she'd grab my hand, we'd
walk across the mall, and I'd bea little boy.
That's the feeling I got when Iwas just talking to her for two
minutes.
It's like, okay, uh yeah, Iain't into this domination
stuff, so calm down.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
You know, I can't I don't really I don't think we
should be recording this part ofit.
Well, it was up to you.
You're the one that clicked thebuttons, so that's true.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (04:33):
I've had I've had a really interesting reaction to
this whole Charlie Kirk thing.
Oh, tell me about it.
No, I I I had a really becauseI've I've followed him on some
interviews and he shows up onTikTok all the time with these
debates that he does withcollege students.
And he has you know, he's alittle bit a little bit odd.
(04:56):
I think he's a little autistic,but man, at 18 he started doing
this.
It's I mean, it's amazing whathe's created by 31.
I didn't even know I had Ididn't know I had a penis until
I was 32.
So that that it always impressesyou when have a guy has a
direction and they just go forit.
Plus, he's a traditionalfollower of Christ the way I
(05:18):
think both me and you wereraised.
I mean, he says right down theline, he would he just is
unashamedly a follower of Christin the tradition that the that
we're that I was raised in.
So it was like I had such aninteresting reaction to it.
And some of my clients they theywere like, Yeah, good.
I'm thinking, no, no, we wellno, that's just bad.
(05:41):
So uh I watched a little bit ofit and uh I listened to Glenn
Becker, they were good friends.
And so I got to thinking it mustbe that I mean he was killed for
having opinions.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Well, we assume yeah, yeah, they caught the guy
today, I guess.
His father turned him in.
Really?
Yeah.
The uh father worked with theirminister who finally convinced
him to to turn himself in.
So it was a mor it was uh Ithink that's a Mormon family.
(06:16):
But so anyway, it'll beinteresting to see what comes
out as far as what motivated himto do it.
But anyway, uh I mean if youjust listen to the one side talk
about Kirk, they would they theyframed him as a uh as a radical
narc uh Nazi because he tookstands.
(06:37):
But as I listened to him, that'show I was raised.
It was like he had the beliefs,I had the beliefs.
I don't have a lot of those now,but I I had them.
And so when he got shot, it'slike, okay, if it was about his
opinions, that's pretty wild.
He killed a part of of that ofthe normalcy in some ways that
(06:58):
used to be pretty normal in ourcult in our country.
And so I think that's where thereaction was like, okay, this is
really wild.
And then there, and then there'sa whole slew of celebrations of
because college kids eitherloved him or hated him.
And so there's the on socialmedia, there's this parade of
(07:20):
people that just were so excitedthat this was amazing, that they
were able to kill him, becausehe was a Nazi and he was he was
intolerant and all this stuffthat he it wasn't true at all
from my perspective.
So I just feel like I had areally interesting response of
okay, we're at a differentplace.
If I have an opinion, and hespoke out pretty strongly
(07:42):
against like women in sport, uhmen in women's sports, but that
wasn't his main theme.
His main theme was he willdebate anybody.
Did you uh you haven't seen manyof his clips?
SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
No, I haven't seen any.
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
He went to Oxford and Cambridge and he debated
those guys.
If you watch it, it's amazinghow he he went to one year of
college and dropped out, and yethe's read everything.
He knows he he knew the uhFederalist papers, he knows all
this stuff by heart, he knowsscripture like you're a savant.
I mean, it's amazing to listento the stuff he just quotes.
(08:16):
So with kids, that's impressivebecause he would take on college
professors on these collegecampuses, he would talk to
anybody and he'd have them stepup to the front of the mic.
If you disagree with me, I wantyou up first.
And he'd have trans people, hewould have gay, anybody he would
talk to.
It was fascinating to watch thatkind of interaction, and he did
it before anybody knew who hewas.
He was doing it, you know, whenhe was 20 years old.
(08:40):
Anyway, it's just uh it'sinteresting from the perspective
of he just had this what used tobe Middle America voice, and if
he got shot for his opinions,that's pretty wild.
Like a friend of mine got shotfor his opinions.
I'm not saying who, I'm justsaying.
(09:04):
I mean, that's the weird part.
They they might as well haveshot you.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Well, thanks.
No, no, I mean that's appreciateyour support, Joe.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
But like they say about Charlie Kirk, because a
lot of uh his followers are areevangelical Christians, uh, he's
in a better place.
And you're in a better place.
So there you go.
Now his his wife was uh formerMiss Miss Arizona, who's built a
really uh quite a massive socialmedia presence too, and a and a
(09:45):
clothing company.
But yeah, just two year old theygot a three-year-old and a
one-year-old.
Anyway, it's just been aninteresting week from that
perspective.
And I went out to Emily and Isaid, Did you hear just Charlie
Kirk got shot?
And she goes, Who Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
I go, Isn't it interesting the um the things
you think everybody knows?
Like your stuff, like stuff thatyou think you that have
influenced you that, oh yeah,this is and then somebody goes,
Wait, I don't know what you'retalking about.
SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
Yeah, kind of like uh, you know, uh uh a TV show
you mentioned to Emily, shegoes, What?
Oh I'm not I don't know whatthat means.
Okay, good.
Because I'm sure there arethings you say I don't know what
you mean.
But actually Jonah did know him.
Jonah did Jonah Jonah had strongfeelings about him, but it was
just interesting.
Uh I just I could relate to theto the I he just he just had
(10:45):
what I would say normal views.
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
Anyway, I do think I I I'm intrigued by your um
perspective that he he embodiedthe things that we grew up with,
he embodied those things and andeven though you move away from
(11:13):
them, there's a reverence thatyou still have for how they
formed you.
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Absolutely true.
I think that's what I was struckwith.
I I don't believe a lot of itexperientially, but on the other
hand, there's a reverence, and Ithink we've lost the reverence
of a it's like people whodeconstruct their faith and
throw it all out rather thanrealizing, wait a minute, you're
just examining finally why youbelieve what you believe.
You don't need to throw it allout.
(11:38):
So I think that was a great wayof putting it because it it
there was a reverence to thebelief system that I valued on
some level because I embracedit.
And to think that somebody thatwas boldly, I mean, he was
boldly, he at Oxford, they wouldask him direct questions.
He said, No, Jesus Christ diedfor my sins.
I believe we're all sinners, butjust that whole thing, and he
(11:59):
wouldn't back down.
And it it was amazing to watchthe people react, and they came
at him.
The other thing that his traitwas he never personalized
anything, and he lovedeverybody, he would talk to
anybody.
So it's just it's just weird howhe was cut down at 31.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
What do you where do you think that trait comes from
where you don't personalizeanything?
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
I have no freaking idea.
But from the they all these guysthat knew him talked about they
met him when he was like 16, 17years old, and he would go up to
him and say, Yeah, I'm gonnastart this business, I'm gonna
start this thing, I'm gonna goto college campuses, I'm gonna
start talking to all these kidsbecause we got a whole
generation to save.
And he was like 17.
(12:42):
I mean, all these guys, like allthese conservative influencers,
uh Ben Shapiro, all those guys,they met him then.
They all knew him back then, andthey all said he had an energy
about him that they just knew hewas different.
And he's an odd-looking guy,kind of, I think, but uh but
from that, but he just thisenergy, I guess everybody
carries an energy about him, butyou're right, where does that
(13:03):
come from?
He knew from an early ageexactly where where who he was
and what he wanted toaccomplish.
And they asked him a questionjust a couple months ago in a
podcast what does he want to beremembered by?
And he goes, most importantthing is that I followed my
faith and I did what Jesus toldme to do.
That's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
Wow.
Wow.
How amazing that somebody askedthat question so soon before
this took place.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
And uh again, just that that that clarity.
Now, the other side of me says,well, you didn't live long
enough to find out if it reallywas gonna work long term.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
So yeah.
So let me, I'm gonna shift gearshere.
Um just this is a greattransition.
No, no, no, no, no.
I just I this is a good shift toI don't know if I may use some
of the stuff we talked about afew minutes ago, but let me kind
of shift your thinking.
Because I think this is aperfect bridge for it.
(14:07):
Um welcome to the TherapyCoaching and Dreams podcast.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm your co-host here with JimShale, and we're jumping into a
conversation that we've beenhaving about some of the most
recent events that have takenplace and uh want to dig deeper
into where we've been with ourunderstanding of personality and
relationships and growth andlooking inward.
(14:29):
Um, and so, Jim, I I I want tojump into a topic that um raises
some issues.
What midlife does for us thathasn't happened prior to that
time that enables us to lookdeeper?
Um, we just talked about um asignificant figure in our
(14:52):
culture who just lost his lifeat age 31 and had a great
influence.
Um we're talking today aboutmidlife that he'd not yet
reached.
What is it about midlife thatbegins to cause us to look at
the world differently?
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Oh, sure.
That's well, usually our eyesget worse.
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
So we have to look inward because we can't look
outward at a real practicallevel.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
Uh we we have those old age eyes where you start
having readers, and yeah.
Uh no, I think if you if youhave children, children come
along and they have perhapsdifferent views.
They challenge the way in whichyou thought life was going to be
lived.
Uh, they have different plans,and I think that begins to
challenge your own approach.
(15:45):
Because again, my belief is alot of times we live out of the
unconscious parts of ourselvesfor the first half of our lives,
the way we're raised, whatimpacts us, the people that
influence us, we attach to themand their journeys to some
degree.
Some people I think are uniquein the sense that they have a
sense of direction early on,whether it's a medical doctor or
(16:07):
or whatever drives you.
Uh, some people seem to have afortunate, I I wasn't blessed
with that at an early age, otherthan I felt a spiritual, uh,
spiritual call at some point,but uh that shifted over the
years.
So to ask you your question, Ithink those factors play into
re-evaluation.
(16:27):
So you get to midlife, andthere's a lot of factors, if
you're conscious at all, uh yourspouse may begin to believe
differently than you believe, orbegin to express views that will
challenge the status quo.
And I think that's why they sayabout every seven years you go
through a transition of beingdifferent to some degree because
(16:47):
you're the outside forces, oreven the way you see the world,
because of your own innerconflict about things not
turning out like you thoughtthey were going to, that also
challenges the the shift alittle bit.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
There's something you said reminded me of an old
uh statement that I've neverforgotten.
And it relates to the notionthat um people in relationship,
they don't typically grieve atthe same pace in the same way.
And so that often causesrelational conflict, which is
also why I'm surmising thatsurviving the death of a child
(17:23):
is one of the most difficultthings for a marriage to
survive.
And it's in part because howintense that difference in
grieving is.
But if we take it away fromgrief and tie it into the
emotional weight of goingthrough middle age and
rethinking things, that peoplein relationship don't do it at
(17:44):
the same pace, they don't do itin the same way.
And so one in a relationshipbegins to re-evaluate, in some
ways, they become a verydifferent person than you had
married.
SPEAKER_02 (17:54):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
It's it's like the one of themost uh uh common ones is um
again, you live out of theunconscious, from my
perspective, the first part, andthen all of a sudden you start
identifying your unhappy.
Let's say in a marriage wherethe wife or the husband, usually
it's usually I would say it'sthe feminine energy that
(18:16):
identifies that sooner than themasculine energy does.
And so they will say somethinglike, I'm just really unhappy.
Well, the the masculinetypically it's the man, and the
relationship will be completelyblindsided by that because their
life is still is pretty, prettyokay.
So that starts to spur startstart stir everything up in that
sense.
Because now this one person thatyou thought it's I've heard it
(18:39):
so many times that I heard itthis week.
Uh they came in and he's he saidbasically, I thought we were
fine.
And the wife, the wife said,I've been unhappy for a long
time.
And he said, Why didn't youspeak up?
And she all they always say,I've been speaking up for years.
And then I'll have to I'll haveto challenge that aspect of it
(19:00):
and say that uh the way thefeminine or the way typically
the woman speaks up is so um uhabstract in some ways.
Just kind of like my example isa a a wife will say, Is that
your underwear in the middle ofthe floor?
And a man will go, Yeah.
(19:21):
Well the well, she just askedyou to pick it up.
But the man didn't hear it.
And so that's what's fascinatingabout communication styles.
The feminine is relationallydriven, so they don't want to be
offensive, so they'll they'llhint at things, but the man will
the masculine won't pick up onit some sometimes.
And so all of a sudden, all of asudden he gets hit in the face
(19:41):
because the masculine in thewoman stands up and says, I'm
unhappy, I don't want to do thisanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Yeah.
And the man's or the masculinevoice is saying, Well, it's
obviously not your underwear, sowhose underwear do you think it
is?
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
Yeah, perhaps that was a way too graphic of an
example, but I'm just saying ifit's your underwear, we got
other conversations to have.
SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Exactly.
Uh I I no wonder I misunderstoodyour hints at things.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Um George, the neighbors, that's his.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah.
Um, well, I I there's um aquestion that I don't know if it
was you or your brother um askedof a client once, but it was the
question, um, would you ride inthe car?
How long would you ride in thecar if you were the passenger?
(20:40):
And the response of the client,which I loved, was after she
paused for a few moments, shesaid, Oh, I'd kick myself out a
long time ago.
And that was a nice commentabout self-awareness of um, I've
been blind to many of the thingsthat I do that affect
relationships and trying to seemyself in a new way sometimes
(21:06):
open your eye, opens your eyesup and you go, Oh, yeah, I can
see why I'd be frustrating toothers.
I remember, I think I've toldyou this.
My dad one time, uh, the familywas together and we were having
a deeper conversation than atleast our family typically had.
And my dad made one of his mostself-aware statements I ever
(21:27):
heard him say.
He said, I know that I am muchmore of a problem to others than
I am to myself.
And I just like I wanted toapplaud that you at least knew
that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
And the rest of that phrase was, and I'm kind of okay
with that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Well-huh, yep.
So you're gonna have to let meknow when it really is a
problem.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:54):
Um, I mean, i again, it's like, uh, how do we get the
midlife question?
When do we begin to reevaluate?
So midlife in literallychronologically is important,
but there's also a midsection ofa relationship.
Like I have a couple they'vethey've been married, they're
older, and they're they've onlybeen married 16 years, though.
(22:16):
So what's come out is this anawareness that they just bicker
all the time.
They travel, they're retired,they travel together, and they
just bicker back and forth.
They argue, bicker.
So they wanna they think theywant to stop that.
I pointed out that you'restaying pretty connected that
way.
(22:36):
I said, Yeah, it's it's wearingyou both out, perhaps, but you
both are staying connected.
So they talked a little bit backand forth, and then they would
interrupt each other, and I'dsay, You you do know you're
interrupting each other.
Yeah, we do it all the time.
Yeah, we do it all the time.
I said, Okay.
So uh, and she goes, So I I likethe example the other day.
So he throws the ball out in themiddle of the street to have our
(22:58):
dog chase it.
I said, Why would you throw itin the middle of the street?
He goes, and he and she and hegoes, See, she's always, I'm
always doing something wrong.
And I go, Okay.
Oh, he said, it'll be fine,it'll be fine.
He meant he minimized heremotions.
And so I said, So it feels likehe minimized your emotions.
And she said, Absolutely, doesit all the time?
(23:21):
And so I said, So when she said,Don't throw it in the middle of
the street, what'd you feel?
She's always correcting me,always correcting me.
And I go, Yep, you're doing thesame thing to each other.
So you feel minimized becauseshe's correcting you, you feel
minimized because he's notacknowledging your emotions,
(23:41):
because you're actually tryingto warn him about the dog
running into the street and mayperhaps get hit by a car, which
is very valid, but it's notcoming across that way at all.
You're now being you'recorrecting him as doing
something wrong.
So they both kind of like he'she's a little bit slower
processor, so she wasn't gettingwhat she got it so quickly that
she started she interrupted me.
(24:01):
I said, now see, you'recorrecting me.
My point being is that it's themidsection of their of their
marriage in some ways.
They've been oh, they've beentogether long enough to
typically do this.
If you would just change thattrait, we'd be fine.
And they project it.
So I got them to see, no, wait aminute, it's it's up to you to
(24:24):
realize that whether you likewhether you agree or not, you're
correcting him.
Whether you agree or not, you'reminimizing her emotions.
And so that's that's thejourney.
Can they get it at their age?
I don't know.
But they it at leastintellectually they got it.
Well, that's what you have to dobefore you start to make the
changes.
And I I gave them theassignment, try to catch
(24:44):
yourself.
They're getting ready to do aroad trip to Arizona.
Try to catch yourself whenyou're tempted to tell them how
to drive, or try to correctyourself when she's she's
basically uh warning you aboutwhere to turn or whatever.
See if you can process and havethat conversation rather than
just to bicker.
If I had to guess, they uh theyon some level like to bicker.
(25:13):
But they would say they didn't,they would say they didn't
because it neither one of themare feeling heard at this point.
So yeah.
Anyway, that's that's anotherway of looking at the evaluation
or the midlife or mid midterm ofa relationship, kind of.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
I like the phrase midterm.
Um, I think some people thinkwhen you're referencing the
significance of midlife, thatit's a particular age, right?
And it's not, it's it can be themidlife of a relationship or the
midlife of your journey doingthis vocation, or the midlife.
(25:47):
You know, I so many people Ihave worked with, they are so
excited about a particular joband then get about four years
into the job and they're bored,or they they don't know what to
do, they don't know how to breakout of whatever it was, and it's
such a shift from thisincredible enthusiasm.
(26:07):
And part of that is just themidlife of the job.
Are you going to evaluate whatit is you need out of vocation?
And is it possible that thisfits for different reasons than
it fit four years ago?
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah, I think that's that'swhere acknowledging
significantly how much we changeuh over our lifetime.
Because we because we have somestandards or some thoughts that
seem to be pervasive in a life alifetime, we then minimize or
can't see the subtle change thatwe really have made just as we
(26:43):
approach life.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Yeah.
And and we often project imposeon the other person that they
have changed and that we haveit.
Absolutely true.
And the the what we miss thereis an incredible opportunity for
growth.
We've talked about this numeroustimes, but part of the midlife
of relationship is that thosethings that attracted me and
(27:04):
were exciting and invigoratingbecome irritating and
frustrating.
And I think it's that the otherperson has dramatically shifted
in how they've done things.
When in fact, I've becomedissatisfied that that is always
externalized, or I have finallyseen kind of the underbelly of
those traits that were somysterious.
(27:27):
And it exposes in me, and it'sat that moment that you have an
opportunity to shift whereyou're looking and go inward and
say, what am I missing in myjourney that would benefit from
actually understanding thisdynamic more instead of being
frustrated by this dynamic more?
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
It's like going back to that other example, is like
asking the typically it's theit's the feminine.
Oh, why do you because it comesacross as though it's
corrective, why would you wantto correct people?
Well, if they are if they'rethoughtful at all.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
That's a great question.
I just want to pause there.
That is a great question.
What what is the need behindwanting to correct?
SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Yeah, and they would say, my guess is uh they're not
trying to correct, they'retrying to warn.
Or they're trying to make youbetter, or they're trying to
point out the the correct factsof a story, which is classic.
You know, this when your yourspouse is telling a story, that
(28:34):
they add stuff to make it funny.
And the your spouse or yourpartner knows is that's all that
you made that up.
So so they're they're tempted tojump in.
You that didn't happen.
Shut up.
I'm telling the story here.
Come on.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, and and often then the desire to correct
or um to rein in your partner iswrestling with your own
anxieties and trying to figureout what those anxieties are.
SPEAKER_02 (29:05):
You're either embarrassed by the story, you're
embarrassed by them becausethey're an extent.
I had a client this week say,you know, he's an extension of
me.
I go, no, that's not, I knowit's not true, but it feels like
he is.
I go, well, yeah, everybodywants to be proud of their
partners.
That's very true.
But it's they're not anextension.
You can let them be them.
It's not a reflection of you.
(29:27):
Well, it sure feels like it.
I go, yeah, it does feel likeit.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
That's very true.
Um it is an interesting internalshift, though, when somebody
stops viewing them as anextension and doesn't feel like
they have to own every misstepor something that they think was
done wrong.
There's like a freedom thatstarts to happen.
SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
There is, but there's also another side of
that which is reallyinteresting.
When you realize that and thenyou quit doing it, you'll subtly
feel disconnected.
Because you connect throughdysfunctional cycles, for
example, like trying to corrector minimizing feelings.
That's an unconscious connectionon some level.
So when you pull back and yourealize, okay, I'm just gonna
(30:10):
let them do that, then it's itcan be subtle, but you can start
feeling like, you know, I don'tcare as much.
So you have to be very awarethat you're you're okay with
that and not let it affect theintimacy level or how you how
you see each other.
Great point.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Um, I don't know if you remember making this
statement, but uh whether youremember it or not, help me to
dig in a little bit more.
Um, that referencing some peoplewho are more married to not
having conflict than they are totheir spouse.
SPEAKER_02 (30:44):
Yeah, that's I use that a lot uh in my in my
counseling or therapy.
Give us more of a context tothis.
Well, it would be like if I'm anavoider and you want to have a
conversation about something Idon't want to talk about, I'm
gonna avoid it.
And so that's why I say I'mmarried to the trait that
protects me from anxiety orhaving difficult conversation or
(31:07):
just feeling anxious generally.
I don't want to feel that, soI'm just gonna walk away.
And then the other person willalmost always feel abandoned
because that trait that protectsme is more important than rising
above it, which is easy to sayit dynamically, it's really hard
to do, than to stay present andsay, okay, let's have this
conversation.
(31:27):
Because again, another way ofsaying that we talked about, I
think, in previous sessions,it's competing anxieties.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
If we if we talk about it, myanxiety goes up.
If we don't, yours goes up.
And so then you get the classicthing where you're being chased
around the house by someone whowants to talk about it.
The other person's trying toavoid talking about it.
And again, it resonates.
(31:49):
It's so it's so interesting tosee couples when I frame it that
way.
It's immediate recognition.
It's it's immediate recognition.
It's like, oh yeah, that's true.
It's competing anxieties.
It's not it's not a badmarriage, it's not a it's not a
throw in the towel kind ofthing.
It's what you don't understandabout how you trigger each
other's anxieties and about howyour bias is the trait that
(32:11):
protects you from being hurt.
Yeah.
And that's what in my mind,that's what intimacy is.
I I always say intimacy is notyou know, fine fuzzy feelings
and great conversations aboutthings.
That's what it feels like in thebeginning of a relationship.
But it's having, as you know,it's having really difficult
conversations and being raw asfar as just the emotions that
(32:32):
you bring out on each other.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Yeah.
One of the tools I try and giveto those who are willing to try
new tools, uh, the willingnessis a big thing.
Um, but is uh when thatparticular type of competing
anxiety takes place where one iswanting to talk, one isn't, is
(32:54):
for the person who's kind ofpushing away to try and use the
phrase, I know you want to talk,I do too, I don't have the
capacity to do it right now.
Can we commit to tomorrow at twoo'clock or when we have
breakfast together?
Um, and I'll be fully present.
(33:16):
Uh, particularly for thosecouples where one likes, right
as they're going to sleep atnight, to bring up a subject,
it's really difficult, and theother one is just about to doze
off.
And at that moment, it's reallytough for the person to engage
and to say, I commit toconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (33:35):
But yet, again, that's why it's the anxiety
because the person laying nextto you could be just ruminating
the rest of the night becausethey wanted to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
And so even if you say, Maybe tomorrow morning at
nine o'clock could we do this?
Well, until you prove thatyou're actually going to do that
at nine o'clock the nextmorning, that that person's
gonna lay there going, We ain'ttalking about this at nine
o'clock because you're gonnahave put, you're just putting it
off.
But yeah, that's why that's whyit's look at the unfairness of
it.
It's like, okay, do I get towake you up and then and then
(34:06):
talk about something you don'twant to talk about, or do I lay
in bed and ruminate about allthis stuff?
Well, hey, easy answer.
That's your stuff.
If you're gonna ruminate, andthen although it's your stuff
too, you're gonna go to you cango to sleep when we're having
this kind of a problem, you canjust sleep.
How dare you?
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
Yeah, maybe the the assignment could be why don't
you stay awake and make posterboards of the issues for a
presentation tomorrow, and I'mgonna show up for it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
I mean, in that moment, I suppose.
See, the problem is the personyou're trying to wake up will
wake up and then they may notget back to sleep.
So that's why they're trying tono no no no no, no, no.
I don't need I don't need to notsleep.
I need to sleep.
Yeah, yeah.
It is interesting to try, butyou're right.
That's one of the ways you tryto address it.
(35:04):
After it's proven that the nextday you will follow through and
have a conversation, then thatperson can actually go to sleep
easier because they know.
Whereas in the past, usuallythey promise to talk about it
and they never bring it up.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but if it's if it's adelay tactic, uh it's gonna come
back to bite you.
Um, if it's an honest response,it has the potential to be kind
of a new way of doing things inthe relationship.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
And you know, it's classic stonewalling.
And if you're in thatdysfunctional cycle, uh you know
that to prove that you're notgonna stonewall is a big deal.
And that's how couples begin tocouples begin to build some real
uh integrity back when theyfollow through with those
things.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
Yeah.
Um this uh shift that takesplace as people are trying to
grow, become more self-aware.
Um the phrase addicted to an oldrelationship that sometimes
keeps people stuck.
Like I I don't realize how asmuch as it bothers me the way we
(36:15):
are, the way we are is sofamiliar, and I know the
outcomes of the way we are, thatstepping into the unknown uh
brings up all kinds of defensesthat keep me from going there
because I continually retreat tothe familiar and I'm kind of
(36:36):
addicted to the way things are.
Well, that's the framework we'vetalked about.
SPEAKER_02 (36:42):
That's the static.
SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:44):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's why I will say a lot,a lot of these challenges are
personality driven.
Faith is personality driven, howwe handle our faith is built.
I mean, all that stuff has thatpersonality context to it.
So if I'm if I'm static bynature and I'm married to a
dynamic individual, they'regonna want to always keep
moving.
And the other static person islike, they're comfortable with
the way things are.
(37:05):
Why would we stir things up?
You know, why would he wellbecause we want to be better?
I'm fine, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
I don't need to be better.
You you need to be better, but II don't need to be better.
SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Yeah.
Again, the other way of lookingat it, it's that it's that old
dynamic.
It's like trying to resolve thecontrol issue.
Every relationship has a controldynamic to it.
It's not a bad, it's not a it'snot a good or a bad, it's just
part of the being human.
And so, how do we how do wenavigate that?
So, if there's a static anddynamic people together, the
dynamic wants to keep movingforward, always do things,
(37:39):
static wants to just kind ofnest and make everything okay,
and we're all good, and let'sall just be be okay.
Calm down, everybody.
And so, and so that it can comeacross as you're trying to
control each other.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Yeah, there's one last loose end I'd love to talk
about before we bring this to aclose, and it's tied into the
midlife journey.
Um, and often part of thatmidlife journey is this
increased awareness of um pasthurts, uh wounds that have never
quite healed, that get theyoften get translated into
(38:12):
relational dynamics.
And so part of the midlifejourney is back to uh one of the
first two episodes, kind oflooking back in order to move
forward.
And I think midlife oftenmidlife of a journey often
brings up some of thosehistorical pieces.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Um, so I I was intrigued by um aline that I read uh in one of
(38:37):
your writings that was umsometimes we believe that those
who have wronged us are going toget away with it if we let go of
our anger.
Yeah.
Um and and that keeps us stuckin a particular place.
Now, the flip side of that is ifwe've had a tough time ever
(38:59):
acknowledging our anger, right,then that's another issue on the
other end of the spectrum.
And both of those things need totake place.
The acknowledgement of theanger, but then letting go of
that need to um hold on tosomething feeling like somebody
got away with it.
(39:20):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (39:21):
That's that's a big deal as far as uh whatever
people think about forgiveness.
That's why people resistforgiving.
Because then they'll say, well,then they got away with it.
It's always it's alwaysinteresting.
Okay, so then go slap them, dosomething, I guess, to make you
feel better that they didn't getaway with it.
Yeah.
There's not so you have to pointout there's what what would what
(39:43):
would have to happen for themfor you not to feel like they
got away with it.
Well, they'd have to bepunished, they'd have some some
consequence, they'd have to, youknow, their new relationship.
If if they had an affair andleft the marriage, that that
relationship needs to fallapart.
He know whatever that is.
It's kind of the classic thingis my wife had an affair, so I'm
gonna go have an affair.
(40:04):
I'll get even.
Uh okay, that's that doesn'twork, but I guess you'll have a
good time while you're doing it,maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
But yeah, that's that's a a really important
thing.
It's because it's like, well,then I can't let go of it, and
it keeps you absolutely stuck intheir toxicity, which is such a
big deal.
SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Yeah, yeah, and what keeps that toxicity oozing more
and more is when you look atthat other person's life and it
feels like it's going well, orthey're not paying a price, or
um and and you ruminate andruminate and ruminate over the
(40:46):
successes of their journey andleaves you holding all of the
toxic material.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
And if it's if it's a if it's a relational dynamic
or a marriage dynamic, you'restill married to them
emotionally.
Great point.
Yeah, and that's what's sointeresting about it, because
you want some kind of as long asyou you obsess about someone
that used to be in your life,it's about you, not about that
person, almost always.
unknown (41:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
What what a great uh conversation, hopefully hopeful
to some others.
SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Pardon me?
Good good stuff, good questions.
Yeah, hopefully our audience isuh our audience of six is really
doing well.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Larry and his five friends thatthat huddle around uh all
together and listen to thispodcast at the same time.
SPEAKER_02 (41:37):
We can't wait for these to drop.
Uh as they say.
SPEAKER_01 (41:41):
So anyway, good talk.
Thanks, Jim.
Great to be with you today, anduh all of you that have joined
us, uh look forward to the nextconversation.
And um I'm embracing uh the old man in me, you know
what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Nice, nice.
I don't know.
Do you have to click that you'rewilling to do the recording or
does it do it?
SPEAKER_02 (00:12):
Yes, I do, and I haven't clicked it yet because
I'm not sure I want to recordthis.
SPEAKER_01 (00:20):
Oh man, when did you get out there?
Did you get out there lastnight?
SPEAKER_02 (00:24):
Uh I did.
Uh guess who uh wanted to havedinner?
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Um Cheryl.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Oh my word.
Uh I would have said no, sir.
Oh, Catherine.
Oh, oh.
She's uh, you know, it's sofunny.
She knew.
So at the end of the we haddinner at some pizza place, and
at the end, uh I said, you know,you know, me, whenever you need
(00:55):
to call, call.
She's I know, I knew you thoughtthat things uh turned a corner
with this relationship, and Iwas like, I'm no longer like
deeply infatuated in love.
And I went, Yep, that's why youcalled.
She goes, I knew you'd thinkthat, and you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Uh this is how she gets free therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
How does that it's uh I I don't care anymore.
Just like she just calls me andI go, and it was funny because
she didn't she asked about theAlaska trip a little bit, but
mainly it was about her guyshe's in love with finally they
have to be apart because she hasa kid, so for five days they
don't see each other, and so andhe's not with her, he thinks
(01:42):
about things, and so finally hesaid to her, you know, I have an
incredible support group in mylife.
Uh these uh my mother and thesea lot of these women, they just
they're so encouraging to me.
And I've noticed that you youjust don't aren't as encouraging
to them to me.
It was like for her, it was likebing bing bing bing.
I said, Well, yeah, you'redating a woman.
(02:04):
What are you talking about here?
So, and I said, It's gonna pushyou to the masculine side.
You already have a strongmasculine side.
She goes, I know, but I think Icould, I think I could marry
him.
I go, Okay, that's that's fine.
Although she did pull back andshe goes, I was gonna I was
ready to introduce him to herson because she has to wait six
months, and she goes, All of asudden, I went, Mm, nope, I
(02:27):
gotta sort this out and see ifhe just wants to be a woman or
not.
And I well, you know, lesbianismseems to be the way of the day,
so let's go.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Anyway, uh why does she have to wait six months?
What's that about?
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Part of the divorce agreement can't introduce new
people to your kid, even thoughher ex did, so which your uh
eight-year-old son reminds herof.
Dad did, why don't you?
Anyway.
So interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
I've never I've never heard of that as being
part of a divorce agreement.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah, they both agreed on it, but then he didn't
follow it.
So she said, I'm gonna follow itbecause I that's what I do.
Anyway, it was just funny.
We had a nice visit, it wasfine, but it's just interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
Well, it's it's nice that uh it evolved into a nice
friendship.
SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, on uh you know, for her.
I'm I'm very okay with that.
It's like, yeah, that's fine.
I ain't uh I ain't sittingaround waiting on anybody
anymore except D.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Did uh did she ever try and get you to reconnect
with the friend that's uh 10years her senior or something?
No.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
No, no, she's 30 years her senior.
Oh 30 years, wow.
Yeah, she's she's 60 something.
Nope, she kind of got themessage real clear.
I mean, when you say kind ofoverwhelmed, and she's a big
woman.
I don't mean that in a bad way.
What kind of maybe I do?
I mean, not a heavy fat, butjust big woman, you know what
(04:00):
I'm saying?
Big presence?
Yeah, I would feel like uh, youknow, she'd grab my hand, we'd
walk across the mall, and I'd bea little boy.
That's the feeling I got when Iwas just talking to her for two
minutes.
It's like, okay, uh yeah, Iain't into this domination
stuff, so calm down.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
You know, I can't I don't really I don't think we
should be recording this part ofit.
Well, it was up to you.
You're the one that clicked thebuttons, so that's true.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (04:33):
I've had I've had a really interesting reaction to
this whole Charlie Kirk thing.
Oh, tell me about it.
No, I I I had a really becauseI've I've followed him on some
interviews and he shows up onTikTok all the time with these
debates that he does withcollege students.
And he has you know, he's alittle bit a little bit odd.
(04:56):
I think he's a little autistic,but man, at 18 he started doing
this.
It's I mean, it's amazing whathe's created by 31.
I didn't even know I had Ididn't know I had a penis until
I was 32.
So that that it always impressesyou when have a guy has a
direction and they just go forit.
Plus, he's a traditionalfollower of Christ the way I
(05:18):
think both me and you wereraised.
I mean, he says right down theline, he would he just is
unashamedly a follower of Christin the tradition that the that
we're that I was raised in.
So it was like I had such aninteresting reaction to it.
And some of my clients they theywere like, Yeah, good.
I'm thinking, no, no, we wellno, that's just bad.
(05:41):
So uh I watched a little bit ofit and uh I listened to Glenn
Becker, they were good friends.
And so I got to thinking it mustbe that I mean he was killed for
having opinions.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Well, we assume yeah, yeah, they caught the guy
today, I guess.
His father turned him in.
Really?
Yeah.
The uh father worked with theirminister who finally convinced
him to to turn himself in.
So it was a mor it was uh Ithink that's a Mormon family.
(06:16):
But so anyway, it'll beinteresting to see what comes
out as far as what motivated himto do it.
But anyway, uh I mean if youjust listen to the one side talk
about Kirk, they would they theyframed him as a uh as a radical
narc uh Nazi because he tookstands.
(06:37):
But as I listened to him, that'show I was raised.
It was like he had the beliefs,I had the beliefs.
I don't have a lot of those now,but I I had them.
And so when he got shot, it'slike, okay, if it was about his
opinions, that's pretty wild.
He killed a part of of that ofthe normalcy in some ways that
(06:58):
used to be pretty normal in ourcult in our country.
And so I think that's where thereaction was like, okay, this is
really wild.
And then there, and then there'sa whole slew of celebrations of
because college kids eitherloved him or hated him.
And so there's the on socialmedia, there's this parade of
(07:20):
people that just were so excitedthat this was amazing, that they
were able to kill him, becausehe was a Nazi and he was he was
intolerant and all this stuffthat he it wasn't true at all
from my perspective.
So I just feel like I had areally interesting response of
okay, we're at a differentplace.
If I have an opinion, and hespoke out pretty strongly
(07:42):
against like women in sport, uhmen in women's sports, but that
wasn't his main theme.
His main theme was he willdebate anybody.
Did you uh you haven't seen manyof his clips?
SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
No, I haven't seen any.
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
He went to Oxford and Cambridge and he debated
those guys.
If you watch it, it's amazinghow he he went to one year of
college and dropped out, and yethe's read everything.
He knows he he knew the uhFederalist papers, he knows all
this stuff by heart, he knowsscripture like you're a savant.
I mean, it's amazing to listento the stuff he just quotes.
(08:16):
So with kids, that's impressivebecause he would take on college
professors on these collegecampuses, he would talk to
anybody and he'd have them stepup to the front of the mic.
If you disagree with me, I wantyou up first.
And he'd have trans people, hewould have gay, anybody he would
talk to.
It was fascinating to watch thatkind of interaction, and he did
it before anybody knew who hewas.
He was doing it, you know, whenhe was 20 years old.
(08:40):
Anyway, it's just uh it'sinteresting from the perspective
of he just had this what used tobe Middle America voice, and if
he got shot for his opinions,that's pretty wild.
Like a friend of mine got shotfor his opinions.
I'm not saying who, I'm justsaying.
(09:04):
I mean, that's the weird part.
They they might as well haveshot you.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Well, thanks.
No, no, I mean that's appreciateyour support, Joe.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
But like they say about Charlie Kirk, because a
lot of uh his followers are areevangelical Christians, uh, he's
in a better place.
And you're in a better place.
So there you go.
Now his his wife was uh formerMiss Miss Arizona, who's built a
really uh quite a massive socialmedia presence too, and a and a
(09:45):
clothing company.
But yeah, just two year old theygot a three-year-old and a
one-year-old.
Anyway, it's just been aninteresting week from that
perspective.
And I went out to Emily and Isaid, Did you hear just Charlie
Kirk got shot?
And she goes, Who Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
I go, Isn't it interesting the um the things
you think everybody knows?
Like your stuff, like stuff thatyou think you that have
influenced you that, oh yeah,this is and then somebody goes,
Wait, I don't know what you'retalking about.
SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
Yeah, kind of like uh, you know, uh uh a TV show
you mentioned to Emily, shegoes, What?
Oh I'm not I don't know whatthat means.
Okay, good.
Because I'm sure there arethings you say I don't know what
you mean.
But actually Jonah did know him.
Jonah did Jonah Jonah had strongfeelings about him, but it was
just interesting.
Uh I just I could relate to theto the I he just he just had
(10:45):
what I would say normal views.
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
Anyway, I do think I I I'm intrigued by your um
perspective that he he embodiedthe things that we grew up with,
he embodied those things and andeven though you move away from
(11:13):
them, there's a reverence thatyou still have for how they
formed you.
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Absolutely true.
I think that's what I was struckwith.
I I don't believe a lot of itexperientially, but on the other
hand, there's a reverence, and Ithink we've lost the reverence
of a it's like people whodeconstruct their faith and
throw it all out rather thanrealizing, wait a minute, you're
just examining finally why youbelieve what you believe.
You don't need to throw it allout.
(11:38):
So I think that was a great wayof putting it because it it
there was a reverence to thebelief system that I valued on
some level because I embracedit.
And to think that somebody thatwas boldly, I mean, he was
boldly, he at Oxford, they wouldask him direct questions.
He said, No, Jesus Christ diedfor my sins.
I believe we're all sinners, butjust that whole thing, and he
(11:59):
wouldn't back down.
And it it was amazing to watchthe people react, and they came
at him.
The other thing that his traitwas he never personalized
anything, and he lovedeverybody, he would talk to
anybody.
So it's just it's just weird howhe was cut down at 31.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
What do you where do you think that trait comes from
where you don't personalizeanything?
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
I have no freaking idea.
But from the they all these guysthat knew him talked about they
met him when he was like 16, 17years old, and he would go up to
him and say, Yeah, I'm gonnastart this business, I'm gonna
start this thing, I'm gonna goto college campuses, I'm gonna
start talking to all these kidsbecause we got a whole
generation to save.
And he was like 17.
(12:42):
I mean, all these guys, like allthese conservative influencers,
uh Ben Shapiro, all those guys,they met him then.
They all knew him back then, andthey all said he had an energy
about him that they just knew hewas different.
And he's an odd-looking guy,kind of, I think, but uh but
from that, but he just thisenergy, I guess everybody
carries an energy about him, butyou're right, where does that
(13:03):
come from?
He knew from an early ageexactly where where who he was
and what he wanted toaccomplish.
And they asked him a questionjust a couple months ago in a
podcast what does he want to beremembered by?
And he goes, most importantthing is that I followed my
faith and I did what Jesus toldme to do.
That's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
Wow.
Wow.
How amazing that somebody askedthat question so soon before
this took place.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
And uh again, just that that that clarity.
Now, the other side of me says,well, you didn't live long
enough to find out if it reallywas gonna work long term.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
So yeah.
So let me, I'm gonna shift gearshere.
Um just this is a greattransition.
No, no, no, no, no.
I just I this is a good shift toI don't know if I may use some
of the stuff we talked about afew minutes ago, but let me kind
of shift your thinking.
Because I think this is aperfect bridge for it.
(14:07):
Um welcome to the TherapyCoaching and Dreams podcast.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm your co-host here with JimShale, and we're jumping into a
conversation that we've beenhaving about some of the most
recent events that have takenplace and uh want to dig deeper
into where we've been with ourunderstanding of personality and
relationships and growth andlooking inward.
(14:29):
Um, and so, Jim, I I I want tojump into a topic that um raises
some issues.
What midlife does for us thathasn't happened prior to that
time that enables us to lookdeeper?
Um, we just talked about um asignificant figure in our
(14:52):
culture who just lost his lifeat age 31 and had a great
influence.
Um we're talking today aboutmidlife that he'd not yet
reached.
What is it about midlife thatbegins to cause us to look at
the world differently?
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Oh, sure.
That's well, usually our eyesget worse.
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
So we have to look inward because we can't look
outward at a real practicallevel.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
Uh we we have those old age eyes where you start
having readers, and yeah.
Uh no, I think if you if youhave children, children come
along and they have perhapsdifferent views.
They challenge the way in whichyou thought life was going to be
lived.
Uh, they have different plans,and I think that begins to
challenge your own approach.
(15:45):
Because again, my belief is alot of times we live out of the
unconscious parts of ourselvesfor the first half of our lives,
the way we're raised, whatimpacts us, the people that
influence us, we attach to themand their journeys to some
degree.
Some people I think are uniquein the sense that they have a
sense of direction early on,whether it's a medical doctor or
(16:07):
or whatever drives you.
Uh, some people seem to have afortunate, I I wasn't blessed
with that at an early age, otherthan I felt a spiritual, uh,
spiritual call at some point,but uh that shifted over the
years.
So to ask you your question, Ithink those factors play into
re-evaluation.
(16:27):
So you get to midlife, andthere's a lot of factors, if
you're conscious at all, uh yourspouse may begin to believe
differently than you believe, orbegin to express views that will
challenge the status quo.
And I think that's why they sayabout every seven years you go
through a transition of beingdifferent to some degree because
(16:47):
you're the outside forces, oreven the way you see the world,
because of your own innerconflict about things not
turning out like you thoughtthey were going to, that also
challenges the the shift alittle bit.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
There's something you said reminded me of an old
uh statement that I've neverforgotten.
And it relates to the notionthat um people in relationship,
they don't typically grieve atthe same pace in the same way.
And so that often causesrelational conflict, which is
also why I'm surmising thatsurviving the death of a child
(17:23):
is one of the most difficultthings for a marriage to
survive.
And it's in part because howintense that difference in
grieving is.
But if we take it away fromgrief and tie it into the
emotional weight of goingthrough middle age and
rethinking things, that peoplein relationship don't do it at
(17:44):
the same pace, they don't do itin the same way.
And so one in a relationshipbegins to re-evaluate, in some
ways, they become a verydifferent person than you had
married.
SPEAKER_02 (17:54):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
It's it's like the one of themost uh uh common ones is um
again, you live out of theunconscious, from my
perspective, the first part, andthen all of a sudden you start
identifying your unhappy.
Let's say in a marriage wherethe wife or the husband, usually
it's usually I would say it'sthe feminine energy that
(18:16):
identifies that sooner than themasculine energy does.
And so they will say somethinglike, I'm just really unhappy.
Well, the the masculinetypically it's the man, and the
relationship will be completelyblindsided by that because their
life is still is pretty, prettyokay.
So that starts to spur startstart stir everything up in that
sense.
Because now this one person thatyou thought it's I've heard it
(18:39):
so many times that I heard itthis week.
Uh they came in and he's he saidbasically, I thought we were
fine.
And the wife, the wife said,I've been unhappy for a long
time.
And he said, Why didn't youspeak up?
And she all they always say,I've been speaking up for years.
And then I'll have to I'll haveto challenge that aspect of it
(19:00):
and say that uh the way thefeminine or the way typically
the woman speaks up is so um uhabstract in some ways.
Just kind of like my example isa a a wife will say, Is that
your underwear in the middle ofthe floor?
And a man will go, Yeah.
(19:21):
Well the well, she just askedyou to pick it up.
But the man didn't hear it.
And so that's what's fascinatingabout communication styles.
The feminine is relationallydriven, so they don't want to be
offensive, so they'll they'llhint at things, but the man will
the masculine won't pick up onit some sometimes.
And so all of a sudden, all of asudden he gets hit in the face
(19:41):
because the masculine in thewoman stands up and says, I'm
unhappy, I don't want to do thisanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Yeah.
And the man's or the masculinevoice is saying, Well, it's
obviously not your underwear, sowhose underwear do you think it
is?
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
Yeah, perhaps that was a way too graphic of an
example, but I'm just saying ifit's your underwear, we got
other conversations to have.
SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Exactly.
Uh I I no wonder I misunderstoodyour hints at things.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Um George, the neighbors, that's his.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah.
Um, well, I I there's um aquestion that I don't know if it
was you or your brother um askedof a client once, but it was the
question, um, would you ride inthe car?
How long would you ride in thecar if you were the passenger?
(20:40):
And the response of the client,which I loved, was after she
paused for a few moments, shesaid, Oh, I'd kick myself out a
long time ago.
And that was a nice commentabout self-awareness of um, I've
been blind to many of the thingsthat I do that affect
relationships and trying to seemyself in a new way sometimes
(21:06):
open your eye, opens your eyesup and you go, Oh, yeah, I can
see why I'd be frustrating toothers.
I remember, I think I've toldyou this.
My dad one time, uh, the familywas together and we were having
a deeper conversation than atleast our family typically had.
And my dad made one of his mostself-aware statements I ever
(21:27):
heard him say.
He said, I know that I am muchmore of a problem to others than
I am to myself.
And I just like I wanted toapplaud that you at least knew
that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
And the rest of that phrase was, and I'm kind of okay
with that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Well-huh, yep.
So you're gonna have to let meknow when it really is a
problem.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:54):
Um, I mean, i again, it's like, uh, how do we get the
midlife question?
When do we begin to reevaluate?
So midlife in literallychronologically is important,
but there's also a midsection ofa relationship.
Like I have a couple they'vethey've been married, they're
older, and they're they've onlybeen married 16 years, though.
(22:16):
So what's come out is this anawareness that they just bicker
all the time.
They travel, they're retired,they travel together, and they
just bicker back and forth.
They argue, bicker.
So they wanna they think theywant to stop that.
I pointed out that you'restaying pretty connected that
way.
(22:36):
I said, Yeah, it's it's wearingyou both out, perhaps, but you
both are staying connected.
So they talked a little bit backand forth, and then they would
interrupt each other, and I'dsay, You you do know you're
interrupting each other.
Yeah, we do it all the time.
Yeah, we do it all the time.
I said, Okay.
So uh, and she goes, So I I likethe example the other day.
So he throws the ball out in themiddle of the street to have our
(22:58):
dog chase it.
I said, Why would you throw itin the middle of the street?
He goes, and he and she and hegoes, See, she's always, I'm
always doing something wrong.
And I go, Okay.
Oh, he said, it'll be fine,it'll be fine.
He meant he minimized heremotions.
And so I said, So it feels likehe minimized your emotions.
And she said, Absolutely, doesit all the time?
(23:21):
And so I said, So when she said,Don't throw it in the middle of
the street, what'd you feel?
She's always correcting me,always correcting me.
And I go, Yep, you're doing thesame thing to each other.
So you feel minimized becauseshe's correcting you, you feel
minimized because he's notacknowledging your emotions,
(23:41):
because you're actually tryingto warn him about the dog
running into the street and mayperhaps get hit by a car, which
is very valid, but it's notcoming across that way at all.
You're now being you'recorrecting him as doing
something wrong.
So they both kind of like he'she's a little bit slower
processor, so she wasn't gettingwhat she got it so quickly that
she started she interrupted me.
(24:01):
I said, now see, you'recorrecting me.
My point being is that it's themidsection of their of their
marriage in some ways.
They've been oh, they've beentogether long enough to
typically do this.
If you would just change thattrait, we'd be fine.
And they project it.
So I got them to see, no, wait aminute, it's it's up to you to
(24:24):
realize that whether you likewhether you agree or not, you're
correcting him.
Whether you agree or not, you'reminimizing her emotions.
And so that's that's thejourney.
Can they get it at their age?
I don't know.
But they it at leastintellectually they got it.
Well, that's what you have to dobefore you start to make the
changes.
And I I gave them theassignment, try to catch
(24:44):
yourself.
They're getting ready to do aroad trip to Arizona.
Try to catch yourself whenyou're tempted to tell them how
to drive, or try to correctyourself when she's she's
basically uh warning you aboutwhere to turn or whatever.
See if you can process and havethat conversation rather than
just to bicker.
If I had to guess, they uh theyon some level like to bicker.
(25:13):
But they would say they didn't,they would say they didn't
because it neither one of themare feeling heard at this point.
So yeah.
Anyway, that's that's anotherway of looking at the evaluation
or the midlife or mid midterm ofa relationship, kind of.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
I like the phrase midterm.
Um, I think some people thinkwhen you're referencing the
significance of midlife, thatit's a particular age, right?
And it's not, it's it can be themidlife of a relationship or the
midlife of your journey doingthis vocation, or the midlife.
(25:47):
You know, I so many people Ihave worked with, they are so
excited about a particular joband then get about four years
into the job and they're bored,or they they don't know what to
do, they don't know how to breakout of whatever it was, and it's
such a shift from thisincredible enthusiasm.
(26:07):
And part of that is just themidlife of the job.
Are you going to evaluate whatit is you need out of vocation?
And is it possible that thisfits for different reasons than
it fit four years ago?
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah, I think that's that'swhere acknowledging
significantly how much we changeuh over our lifetime.
Because we because we have somestandards or some thoughts that
seem to be pervasive in a life alifetime, we then minimize or
can't see the subtle change thatwe really have made just as we
(26:43):
approach life.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Yeah.
And and we often project imposeon the other person that they
have changed and that we haveit.
Absolutely true.
And the the what we miss thereis an incredible opportunity for
growth.
We've talked about this numeroustimes, but part of the midlife
of relationship is that thosethings that attracted me and
(27:04):
were exciting and invigoratingbecome irritating and
frustrating.
And I think it's that the otherperson has dramatically shifted
in how they've done things.
When in fact, I've becomedissatisfied that that is always
externalized, or I have finallyseen kind of the underbelly of
those traits that were somysterious.
(27:27):
And it exposes in me, and it'sat that moment that you have an
opportunity to shift whereyou're looking and go inward and
say, what am I missing in myjourney that would benefit from
actually understanding thisdynamic more instead of being
frustrated by this dynamic more?
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
It's like going back to that other example, is like
asking the typically it's theit's the feminine.
Oh, why do you because it comesacross as though it's
corrective, why would you wantto correct people?
Well, if they are if they'rethoughtful at all.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
That's a great question.
I just want to pause there.
That is a great question.
What what is the need behindwanting to correct?
SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Yeah, and they would say, my guess is uh they're not
trying to correct, they'retrying to warn.
Or they're trying to make youbetter, or they're trying to
point out the the correct factsof a story, which is classic.
You know, this when your yourspouse is telling a story, that
(28:34):
they add stuff to make it funny.
And the your spouse or yourpartner knows is that's all that
you made that up.
So so they're they're tempted tojump in.
You that didn't happen.
Shut up.
I'm telling the story here.
Come on.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, and and often then the desire to correct
or um to rein in your partner iswrestling with your own
anxieties and trying to figureout what those anxieties are.
SPEAKER_02 (29:05):
You're either embarrassed by the story, you're
embarrassed by them becausethey're an extent.
I had a client this week say,you know, he's an extension of
me.
I go, no, that's not, I knowit's not true, but it feels like
he is.
I go, well, yeah, everybodywants to be proud of their
partners.
That's very true.
But it's they're not anextension.
You can let them be them.
It's not a reflection of you.
(29:27):
Well, it sure feels like it.
I go, yeah, it does feel likeit.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
That's very true.
Um it is an interesting internalshift, though, when somebody
stops viewing them as anextension and doesn't feel like
they have to own every misstepor something that they think was
done wrong.
There's like a freedom thatstarts to happen.
SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
There is, but there's also another side of
that which is reallyinteresting.
When you realize that and thenyou quit doing it, you'll subtly
feel disconnected.
Because you connect throughdysfunctional cycles, for
example, like trying to corrector minimizing feelings.
That's an unconscious connectionon some level.
So when you pull back and yourealize, okay, I'm just gonna
(30:10):
let them do that, then it's itcan be subtle, but you can start
feeling like, you know, I don'tcare as much.
So you have to be very awarethat you're you're okay with
that and not let it affect theintimacy level or how you how
you see each other.
Great point.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Um, I don't know if you remember making this
statement, but uh whether youremember it or not, help me to
dig in a little bit more.
Um, that referencing some peoplewho are more married to not
having conflict than they are totheir spouse.
SPEAKER_02 (30:44):
Yeah, that's I use that a lot uh in my in my
counseling or therapy.
Give us more of a context tothis.
Well, it would be like if I'm anavoider and you want to have a
conversation about something Idon't want to talk about, I'm
gonna avoid it.
And so that's why I say I'mmarried to the trait that
protects me from anxiety orhaving difficult conversation or
(31:07):
just feeling anxious generally.
I don't want to feel that, soI'm just gonna walk away.
And then the other person willalmost always feel abandoned
because that trait that protectsme is more important than rising
above it, which is easy to sayit dynamically, it's really hard
to do, than to stay present andsay, okay, let's have this
conversation.
(31:27):
Because again, another way ofsaying that we talked about, I
think, in previous sessions,it's competing anxieties.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
If we if we talk about it, myanxiety goes up.
If we don't, yours goes up.
And so then you get the classicthing where you're being chased
around the house by someone whowants to talk about it.
The other person's trying toavoid talking about it.
And again, it resonates.
(31:49):
It's so it's so interesting tosee couples when I frame it that
way.
It's immediate recognition.
It's it's immediate recognition.
It's like, oh yeah, that's true.
It's competing anxieties.
It's not it's not a badmarriage, it's not a it's not a
throw in the towel kind ofthing.
It's what you don't understandabout how you trigger each
other's anxieties and about howyour bias is the trait that
(32:11):
protects you from being hurt.
Yeah.
And that's what in my mind,that's what intimacy is.
I I always say intimacy is notyou know, fine fuzzy feelings
and great conversations aboutthings.
That's what it feels like in thebeginning of a relationship.
But it's having, as you know,it's having really difficult
conversations and being raw asfar as just the emotions that
(32:32):
you bring out on each other.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Yeah.
One of the tools I try and giveto those who are willing to try
new tools, uh, the willingnessis a big thing.
Um, but is uh when thatparticular type of competing
anxiety takes place where one iswanting to talk, one isn't, is
(32:54):
for the person who's kind ofpushing away to try and use the
phrase, I know you want to talk,I do too, I don't have the
capacity to do it right now.
Can we commit to tomorrow at twoo'clock or when we have
breakfast together?
Um, and I'll be fully present.
(33:16):
Uh, particularly for thosecouples where one likes, right
as they're going to sleep atnight, to bring up a subject,
it's really difficult, and theother one is just about to doze
off.
And at that moment, it's reallytough for the person to engage
and to say, I commit toconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (33:35):
But yet, again, that's why it's the anxiety
because the person laying nextto you could be just ruminating
the rest of the night becausethey wanted to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
And so even if you say, Maybe tomorrow morning at
nine o'clock could we do this?
Well, until you prove thatyou're actually going to do that
at nine o'clock the nextmorning, that that person's
gonna lay there going, We ain'ttalking about this at nine
o'clock because you're gonnahave put, you're just putting it
off.
But yeah, that's why that's whyit's look at the unfairness of
it.
It's like, okay, do I get towake you up and then and then
(34:06):
talk about something you don'twant to talk about, or do I lay
in bed and ruminate about allthis stuff?
Well, hey, easy answer.
That's your stuff.
If you're gonna ruminate, andthen although it's your stuff
too, you're gonna go to you cango to sleep when we're having
this kind of a problem, you canjust sleep.
How dare you?
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
Yeah, maybe the the assignment could be why don't
you stay awake and make posterboards of the issues for a
presentation tomorrow, and I'mgonna show up for it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
I mean, in that moment, I suppose.
See, the problem is the personyou're trying to wake up will
wake up and then they may notget back to sleep.
So that's why they're trying tono no no no no, no, no.
I don't need I don't need to notsleep.
I need to sleep.
Yeah, yeah.
It is interesting to try, butyou're right.
That's one of the ways you tryto address it.
(35:04):
After it's proven that the nextday you will follow through and
have a conversation, then thatperson can actually go to sleep
easier because they know.
Whereas in the past, usuallythey promise to talk about it
and they never bring it up.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but if it's if it's adelay tactic, uh it's gonna come
back to bite you.
Um, if it's an honest response,it has the potential to be kind
of a new way of doing things inthe relationship.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
And you know, it's classic stonewalling.
And if you're in thatdysfunctional cycle, uh you know
that to prove that you're notgonna stonewall is a big deal.
And that's how couples begin tocouples begin to build some real
uh integrity back when theyfollow through with those
things.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
Yeah.
Um this uh shift that takesplace as people are trying to
grow, become more self-aware.
Um the phrase addicted to an oldrelationship that sometimes
keeps people stuck.
Like I I don't realize how asmuch as it bothers me the way we
(36:15):
are, the way we are is sofamiliar, and I know the
outcomes of the way we are, thatstepping into the unknown uh
brings up all kinds of defensesthat keep me from going there
because I continually retreat tothe familiar and I'm kind of
(36:36):
addicted to the way things are.
Well, that's the framework we'vetalked about.
SPEAKER_02 (36:42):
That's the static.
SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:44):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's why I will say a lot,a lot of these challenges are
personality driven.
Faith is personality driven, howwe handle our faith is built.
I mean, all that stuff has thatpersonality context to it.
So if I'm if I'm static bynature and I'm married to a
dynamic individual, they'regonna want to always keep
moving.
And the other static person islike, they're comfortable with
the way things are.
(37:05):
Why would we stir things up?
You know, why would he wellbecause we want to be better?
I'm fine, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
I don't need to be better.
You you need to be better, but II don't need to be better.
SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Yeah.
Again, the other way of lookingat it, it's that it's that old
dynamic.
It's like trying to resolve thecontrol issue.
Every relationship has a controldynamic to it.
It's not a bad, it's not a it'snot a good or a bad, it's just
part of the being human.
And so, how do we how do wenavigate that?
So, if there's a static anddynamic people together, the
dynamic wants to keep movingforward, always do things,
(37:39):
static wants to just kind ofnest and make everything okay,
and we're all good, and let'sall just be be okay.
Calm down, everybody.
And so, and so that it can comeacross as you're trying to
control each other.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Yeah, there's one last loose end I'd love to talk
about before we bring this to aclose, and it's tied into the
midlife journey.
Um, and often part of thatmidlife journey is this
increased awareness of um pasthurts, uh wounds that have never
quite healed, that get theyoften get translated into
(38:12):
relational dynamics.
And so part of the midlifejourney is back to uh one of the
first two episodes, kind oflooking back in order to move
forward.
And I think midlife oftenmidlife of a journey often
brings up some of thosehistorical pieces.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Um, so I I was intrigued by um aline that I read uh in one of
(38:37):
your writings that was umsometimes we believe that those
who have wronged us are going toget away with it if we let go of
our anger.
Yeah.
Um and and that keeps us stuckin a particular place.
Now, the flip side of that is ifwe've had a tough time ever
(38:59):
acknowledging our anger, right,then that's another issue on the
other end of the spectrum.
And both of those things need totake place.
The acknowledgement of theanger, but then letting go of
that need to um hold on tosomething feeling like somebody
got away with it.
(39:20):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (39:21):
That's that's a big deal as far as uh whatever
people think about forgiveness.
That's why people resistforgiving.
Because then they'll say, well,then they got away with it.
It's always it's alwaysinteresting.
Okay, so then go slap them, dosomething, I guess, to make you
feel better that they didn't getaway with it.
Yeah.
There's not so you have to pointout there's what what would what
(39:43):
would have to happen for themfor you not to feel like they
got away with it.
Well, they'd have to bepunished, they'd have some some
consequence, they'd have to, youknow, their new relationship.
If if they had an affair andleft the marriage, that that
relationship needs to fallapart.
He know whatever that is.
It's kind of the classic thingis my wife had an affair, so I'm
gonna go have an affair.
(40:04):
I'll get even.
Uh okay, that's that doesn'twork, but I guess you'll have a
good time while you're doing it,maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
But yeah, that's that's a a really important
thing.
It's because it's like, well,then I can't let go of it, and
it keeps you absolutely stuck intheir toxicity, which is such a
big deal.
SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Yeah, yeah, and what keeps that toxicity oozing more
and more is when you look atthat other person's life and it
feels like it's going well, orthey're not paying a price, or
um and and you ruminate andruminate and ruminate over the
(40:46):
successes of their journey andleaves you holding all of the
toxic material.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
And if it's if it's a if it's a relational dynamic
or a marriage dynamic, you'restill married to them
emotionally.
Great point.
Yeah, and that's what's sointeresting about it, because
you want some kind of as long asyou you obsess about someone
that used to be in your life,it's about you, not about that
person, almost always.
unknown (41:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
What what a great uh conversation, hopefully hopeful
to some others.
SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Pardon me?
Good good stuff, good questions.
Yeah, hopefully our audience isuh our audience of six is really
doing well.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Larry and his five friends thatthat huddle around uh all
together and listen to thispodcast at the same time.
SPEAKER_02 (41:37):
We can't wait for these to drop.
Uh as they say.
SPEAKER_01 (41:41):
So anyway, good talk.
Thanks, Jim.
Great to be with you today, anduh all of you that have joined
us, uh look forward to the nextconversation.
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