December 31, 2025 • 32 mins
Ever catch yourself asking, “Is anybody thirsty?” when you really mean, “I am thirsty”? That’s projection. Projection is the way we see our denied traits, desires, needs, and fears in other people. In this episode we dig into projection with clear language, real stories, and actionable tools you can use the next time a small ask turns into a big fight.
We break down how projection can make our attraction to another person feel like destiny. And later, projection can fuel the disappointment phase, when the qualities that once drew us together start to grate on us. From the orange juice argument that nearly ended a marriage to the “need meter” who anticipates everyone’s needs but can’t voice their own, we show how to pull projections back, make direct requests without guilt, and build the capacity to get your needs met without tests or resentment. Along the way, we explore masculine and feminine energies, why both defense and receptivity matter, and how the kernel-of-truth test turns criticism into growth without taking it personally.
We explore the mediating factors of our family of origin; roles we were handed, dreams parents lived through us, wealth and scarcity scripts, and faith identities we inherited rather than owned. We also consider the shadow side: how we project what we won’t face onto “the other.” One of the desired outcomes is to promote relationships that grow up instead of blow up.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more curious people can find conversations like this. What projection are you ready to reclaim today?
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome everyone.
We're here jumping into a topicthat we've referenced numerous
times, but we've really notgiven a good definition.
We don't want to make theassumption that everybody is
familiar with the idea ofprojection.
And when we talk about the waysin which our personality styles
play themselves out with othersin relationship, we have to be
(00:24):
aware of projections that takeplace that are sometimes
directed toward us by others andbecome self-aware enough that we
can see when we are projectingsome of the stuff that's in us
onto those with whom we're inrelationship.
So, Jim, we're going to jumpinto that topic.
And I'd love if you could helpus a little bit with kind of a
(00:49):
working definition that you usewith clients when you're talking
about projection.
How do you, for somebody who'snot familiar with the idea at
all, how do you begin tointroduce it to them?
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Well, let me let me first start by stating it's
probably I state it probably toostrong because m my sense is
that most of life is projection.
So so I realize that's a littlebit overstated, maybe, you know?
So but I I I introduce itbasically by saying that the
denied aspect of myself I'lltypically find in someone else.
(01:22):
And so that's projection.
So if there's a trait that Ihave that I don't want to see or
I don't want to acknowledge,I'll almost always find it and
then I'll attack that person,and that's where I'll say, well,
you're probably projecting somethings about yourself onto that
person.
That's usually how I introduceit.
Especially like in couples andin couples counseling.
It's pretty easy to identifywhen they're accusing their
(01:45):
their uh mate or their partnerof being, so let's say
controlling, and yet they'rereally controlling themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
So Yeah, I I actually think you shouldn't
back off too quickly from thenotion that all of life is
projection.
Uh because it comes out in somany ways, just like the shadow
comes out in so many ways thatwe are not aware of.
Projection does come out all thetime, and it comes out in often
ways that are not nefarious orproblematic.
(02:15):
But sometimes uh a person willpose a question to another
individual.
So somebody might say, Do youwant to watch a documentary
tonight?
And the question really is, areyou trying to say that you'd
like to watch a documentarytonight?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Absolutely.
The joke is when we were doingthis trip to Alaska, it got to
the point if someone were toask, so is anybody thirsty?
It's typically you're saying,Are you thirsty?
Do you want to stop?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Yeah.
And for those who don't know,you took a trip to Alaska with
your brothers, uh, a drivingtrip, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
So how many how many miles was it total?
We did 8,700 miles in 16 days.
Yeah.
Dro driving time is about 120hours, I think, something like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Aaron Ross Powell So four brothers in a truck for
that many hours.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Uh the oldest being 80 and the youngest being 72 at
the time.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
Wow.
That should have been a podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Well, it it would have been a it would have been
an interesting one.
No, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
That was a great example.
Is anybody thirsty?
Is a question that is really aprojection because it's not
about anybody else.
You just don't want to be alonein the being the one to say,
could we stop?
Because we just stopped an hourand a half ago.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
No, I would say that the responder or the the
enablers in that that frame,they would genuinely say it and
mean, does anybody need need todo it?
But typically it's a projectionof I want to stop.
Like they're need meters.
So they would anticipate.
Now, they might, on a deeperlevel, be denying the the aspect
(03:57):
that they really wanted to stopas well.
unknown (03:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Because the need meter needer always places their
needs last, but they also canframe it taking care of somebody
else because that's how theytake care of themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
So you just use the word a couple of times, need
meter, which have not heard youuse.
But it but is that a respondertypically?
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
I'm sorry, yes.
We didn't talk about that whenwe talked about a responder.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
I don't think so.
I think you we talked aboutmeeting other people's needs.
I just never heard the phraseneed meter.
Oh, okay.
No, that's what I refer to as aneed meter.
unknown (04:27):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
They anticipate every need.
Now, I think that's aprojection, but to get a need
meter to identify that as beinga projection is really
difficult.
Because it challenges theirwhole sense of self.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I I agree because in many ways
that's the projection of wantingto be needed, wanting to be
important in this system, andwanting to be recognized as
somebody who takes care ofothers.
And so even in that expressionof anybody here needing
something to drink, is this thetime we ought to be thinking
(04:59):
about stopping?
And again, that's not nefarious.
There's nothing wrong with it,but it does reveal part of what
is the internal mechanism of anindividual's personality style.
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Yeah.
I mean, uh again, I have a greatfriend, you know her.
And you know, it it I'm surethis is an exaggeration, as I
sometimes do.
But like, you know, every halfhour, hour, she'll ask, you want
something to drink?
You want something to eat?
Yeah, it's it's it's justinteresting.
They anticipate all that.
(05:31):
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Is so it is it becomes difficult when you're on
the receiving end of projection.
It truly would be for anindividual that you just
described, um, she's notprojecting that she's hungry or
thirsty, but to realize thatthere is something else that's
getting projected and what itmeans to be a good friend in
responding to that, particularlyif it comes to a point with not
(05:56):
necessarily her, but anybody,where it becomes incredibly
irritating.
Yes, absolutely.
That they seem very unaware ofwhat they're doing or what's
happening.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
And if you had to interpret it, you it would you'd
be interpreting it as they're soidentified with meeting needs
that that's how they find asignificance for themselves.
So when they they want to meetyour need all the time, because
that's that's so personal tothem.
Yeah.
But you're right, it it canabsolutely and then you don't
want to get too harsh becausethen they you can hurt their
(06:27):
feelings because they're justtrying to help.
So yes, that dance is that danceof intimacy in some ways is so
interesting because the verything they're trying to do is
help, and yet a lot of men orthe masculine would simply go,
oh my word, no, if I'm hungry,I'll come and get something to
eat.
SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
So when we begin to understand what projection is,
that inward unconscious withinthat gets thrown out on somebody
else in so many different ways.
Why is it important for us tounderstand that it's happening?
There's some really key thingsin a relationship that if you're
(07:08):
not aware of projection, you youcan go down some pathways that
are very unproductive.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, on on this uh surface onthe deeper level, really
understanding the way youproject is the really massive
doorway to self-awareness.
I mean, the the more yourealize, wait a minute, what am
I what what do I really wanthere?
When you are aware of thatprojection piece, you just pull
(07:37):
the projection back.
I mean, that's what I think wemay have talked about at one
point, but in the datingrelationship, you're going to be
something for me that I need.
Well, that what I call thedisappointment phase where that
all that that falls apart, and Irealize I projected onto them
something that they I want themto do for me, that I end up
ultimately 10 or 15 years into arelationship, I really have to
(07:59):
do for myself because it alwaysfalls apart.
And that's the that's thethreatening part of a
relationship, whether it's youknow, between five and fifteen
years, where typically I realizethey're not who I thought they
were going to be.
And again, the pullback of theprojection is I'm not who I
thought I was either.
SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Oh, yeah.
So important.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Yeah, absolutely true.
And that and that's it's itsounds like a negative term, and
couples kind of react to it whenI use it, but it it it's the
disappointment phase, not onlyin myself, but in the other
person.
It's not a negative.
It's like, okay, let's regrouphere and figure out what we need
to do now that we really knowwho we're married to and who we
really are, at least at thatpoint in life.
(08:40):
I think that's the value ofunderstanding what projection
is.
Because if we don't do that,then we just keep fighting crazy
battles.
We don't even know why we'refighting them, because they were
supposed to do something for me,I was supposed to do something
for them that was neverrealistic, but in the dating
phase felt so nice because itwas being met.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
I remember working with a couple that was they had
actually moved to theconversation about divorce.
And as I tried to go back andget to the point where all of
this started, this debate, thefrustration and anger, both of
(09:20):
them honestly came to a spotwhere it was he asked her to get
a glass of orange juice for him,and she said no.
And that was what resulted inthis this movement toward a
divorce, and the the issuewasn't the orange juice, it was
(09:43):
everything else that thatsymbolized, of course.
But when they were looking atwhen the degeneration began, it
was over a glass of orangejuice.
And it it's because there wasthis lack of self-awareness of
self, of other, and they didsome amazing work to become far
more self-aware in theirjourney.
(10:04):
Really incredible work.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah, because the anal the analogy is is so
interesting in the sense thatthere was an expectation that it
was her job to get me orangejuice, my guess is.
And so you have to break apartall those expectations.
That's why, you know, even doingcounseling with couples before
they get married or wherethey're wherever they're
(10:26):
permanent, you have to, as bestyou can, disclose what their
unconscious projections are ortheir expectations are.
Like, for example, thetraditional one is, well, she's
supposed to do the laundry andclean, right?
Or cook or whatever that is.
I mean, that's way back.
And it's like they don't do itor they don't get the orange
juice, and all of a sudden it'slike, seriously?
(10:47):
You won't give me the orangejuice?
Well, no, because there's anexpectation you'll do it.
If you're okay, this this is thedance of intimacy.
If she doesn't, if she says no,he goes, okay, and he gets up
and gets his orange juice andhe's fine with it.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Absolutely.
That's growing up for mypersonal, yep.
Yep.
Um And if you and if you dothat, you genuinely get up, and
I call it a heart change.
If I genuinely get up and get myown orange juice, my partner
will see that, and oftentimesthey will get it the next time.
Because there's no negativetoxicity that that's a demand
(11:22):
that I have to do.
unknown (11:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Again, the power of the choice.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
Power of the choice.
Um, you you talk about theimportance of understanding
projection, and so far most ofwhat we've said has been this
self-awareness of when I'm doingthat.
Like the greater I become moreaware of the workings inside of
(11:49):
me, my defense mechanisms, theunresolved issues, the way I
have depended on somebody elseto fulfill something that I
needed to fill my fulfill myselfin my own way by understanding
who I am.
I don't know that it's alwayssequential that what follows is
(12:09):
greater awareness of the other.
Maybe it happens simultaneously,but I think one of the very
important reasons to understandprojection is to stop taking so
personally things that othersproject onto you.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Yeah.
I mean, uh if there's anythingthat makes such a difference in
life, just in general, uh justquit taking person take thing
taking things personally.
unknown (12:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
I mean, it's it's a it's a great trait.
It's a Buddhist principle.
I mean, it's it's it's thisthing that, yeah, even if it is,
okay, we can do something aboutit or not.
It's like if you're all you'regonna do is get defensive about
it and try to defend yourselfand all that cra okay, well that
where's that gonna get you?
So to realize that anycriticism, okay, so the value of
(12:55):
taking it personally would be toget to a place where you don't
take it personally, but youmight get the value of it.
There may be some truth in it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one of the I don't knowwhen I started doing this, but
I've done it for years whenthere's been some pretty harsh
critique about something I'vedone or said.
And inwardly is this voice thatsays, Is there a kernel and of
truth in there that you need tolearn?
If so, take it and then let goof everything else.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
Yeah, again, let's go back, let's go back to our
whole series here.
You have a little you have astronger feminine energy.
So that's going to be morenatural for you to do it.
And so I think for your journey,it's been getting in touch with
the masculine side that maybeyou need to defend yourself.
Does make sense?
Sure.
Sure.
And so I think that's where thestrong masculine would have a
(13:47):
hard time.
That's why they have to get intouch with the feminine side
that's relationally driven andwant to be motivated to
understanding the kernel oftruth in it.
Whereas the strong masculinewould either avoid it, dismiss
it, say you're crazy, you're anidiot.
I don't agree with that, andmove on.
And that's why, again, our wholetheory, our whole, our whole
sense of this series is you'rebalancing those out, knowing
(14:09):
when to enact the feminine andwhen to legitimately perhaps
defend yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Yeah.
I agree with that.
I I think what I would contend,though, is that masculine or
feminine, dynamic or static, allof those styles can be
completely unaware ofprojections taking place.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's a great point.
Yeah, you're right.
And so even though themasculine, particularly dynamic
(14:36):
masculine, would say you'recrazy and dismiss it, they still
have been left with a positionwhere they are unaware, both of
themselves and others, thatprojection is taking place and
the defense mechanism went out.
That's what dismissal is, is adefense mechanism.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Absolutely.
I was just going to say that.
They they have taken itpersonally by dismissing it.
unknown (15:02):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (15:02):
Right.
Right.
And so I think that there isthis wonderful freedom.
You mentioned it earlier, thatit is a core teaching of some
faith traditions to recognizethat you don't take things
personally.
It is a freedom that comes whereyou kind of just take a deep
breath and go, ha, that reallywasn't all about me.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
That was and that's what we do.
One of your questions is aboutfamily of origin.
We carry projections of parentsa lot.
Aaron Powell Please expand onthat because I think that's so
important.
So let's say you're raised byparents who haven't been
introduced to any kind ofpsychology of self or
self-awareness, and they're justreacting from how they were how
(15:48):
they were raised.
And so they will project.
I mean, the classic thing issports.
Let's say, you know, you have akid who you didn't you did
pretty well in sports, but notgreat.
Well, your kid comes along, he'snaturally more gifted.
You're going to live throughthat kid.
And it's a classic thing wherethey say he's living through his
son.
So he gets waked tied up intoit.
(16:09):
He's he's coaching the kid, he'son his back all the time.
That's a classic case ofprojection where the kid then
feels pressure to carry that.
And I've known cases where thekid will be in a sport, they
don't want to play that sport atall.
They're playing it because dadloves that sport or mom loved
that sport.
And so a conversation I have inmy office is, okay, what's he
(16:30):
really interested in?
Well, he wants to play the pianoor something like that.
I go, okay, does he practice?
Yeah, he practices all the time.
But he's really good in soccer.
Well, does he like soccer?
Well, yeah, he's really good atit.
I go, no, does he like soccer?
Does he enjoy it?
I don't know.
I'd never ask him that.
Or whatever, however thatconversation goes.
(16:51):
That's that's a classic kind ofuh sports-related projection
where the kid feels pressure tocarry that.
But on so many emotional levels,parents sad all the time, or a
parent struggles withdepression, a kid will carry
that.
They'll carry the projection ofthat parent, and they'll enable,
they'll become codependent.
All those tentacles are allabout carrying a family member's
(17:15):
projection.
SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
Yeah, I think I think it's sometimes we have a
difficult time detangling fromfamily of origin.
And I think actually projectionis a wonderful doorway to open
up for an individual to see howthose projections take place,
how one particular member of afamily is the peacemaker and
(17:36):
then carries that into adultlife, or one particular
individual is the one who isalways messing up, or uh
mistakes in a particular area,and they carry that into
adulthood.
And it's it's a tape that'sactually not true, but it is a
tape that brings about outcomesthat seem to reinforce those
(17:57):
things because you've neverchallenged the projection of the
family onto you.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
And that that's another way of looking at it.
Some face faith systems, like Ithink Christianity has a strong
sense of generational sin, theycall it.
Well, from a psychologicalperspective, it could be
generational projection wherethe parent hasn't dealt with
something and they they pass iton down the the system in that
sense, another kid will pick upand carry that projection.
(18:25):
And a lot of family systems haveprojections they carry, whether
it's of wealth.
I mean, there can be all kindsof projections.
They seem to always have wealthin it.
So the kid carries thatprojection.
It's not always a negative or apositive, it's just a
projection.
Yeah.
And that's like people peopleraised in a more of a poverty
mindset, they'll carry thatprojection on.
They don't deserve to be wealthyor whatever that whatever that
(18:48):
is.
The way you break that isobviously is to understand, wait
a minute, what am I I don't haveto be this.
I can be different.
So it's that differentiationthat that's threatening to
family systems as well.
unknown (19:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
If you break away and go to a different faith
system or whatever that you'reraised in, it threatens the
system as well.
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
Aaron Powell Yeah, that's a great point.
The faith system itself becomesa projection.
Yeah.
And until you have to do it.
Yeah.
And until you break theprojection, the faith system
never really is your own.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
You have to embrace it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
And a lot of people I mean, they say, I mean, I
mean, this was an anecdotalpercentage, but uh back when I
studied more of this, it waslike 60% of people raised in a
faith system will leave thatsystem to go to someplace else.
And in my mind, that's apsychological break of the
projection.
Oftentimes they may throw awaytheir faith altogether, but
oftentimes they'll go back andembrace a different faith
(19:41):
system.
And then sometimes as theyunderstand their own journey,
they'll go back and embracetheir original faith system
because they now own it.
unknown (19:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
It's like growing up, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Yeah, it's uh faith individuation uh is really
important.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Yeah.
unknown (19:58):
Definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
We have talked quite a bit about projection in dating
relationships, but it seems realimportant to just touch base on
that again, as one of the waysthat we find attractiveness is
projecting our own lack andfinding it on someone else or in
(20:20):
someone else, and becomingdependent upon that person to
supply that part of who we are.
So just as a reminder from someof the previous conversations,
what are some of the naturalattractions that you see often
taking place?
I certainly can give somepersonal examples and have in
previous episodes.
But give us a few.
(21:12):
I love guys to come.
Do you have any videos of that?
You have any videos of that?
They came to my house to do thefirst rehearsal.
And uh the piano.
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
How'd your dad react to that?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
My dad wasn't around for the rehearsal.
I'm not sure.
I I had recruited a great pianoplayer, great musician, who also
had perfect pitch.
And he told me, he said, rightin the middle of the rehearsal,
he said, Dee, you you're sharp.
And I said, Thank you.
But we need to get back to themusic.
He said, No, no, no, musicallyyou're sharp.
(21:46):
I don't I don't know how to fixthis.
And uh so I got kicked out of myown quartet on the first
rehearsal.
So anyway, that that was mypursuit of something that was
very different than my ownnatural tendencies, and included
(22:07):
with that musical side was kindof the mystical way of looking
at the world through music,through art.
And it just was not part of whoI was, but it was attractive in
every way.
And it was my projection ontosomeone else, the part of me
(22:27):
that was undeveloped, andleaning into someone else to
provide that because I didn'tknow how to access it.
So it wasn't that the projectionwas a wrong thing.
It was just an unconsciousthing.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
If you if you were able to interview in a d
in-depth the people, the peoplethat you're naturally attracted
to, you would find a lot ofunconscious psychological
dynamics about yourself.
I mean, the classic one is Imean, it gets it gets a little
bit complicated as far asattraction is concerned, because
I do believe you're attracted tothe parent you have the most
(23:02):
issues with emotionally, butthat also can be a projection.
So if if I if I project the factthat I'm really emotionally
unavailable, and I don't want toadmit it because I think I am,
I'll be attracted to somebodywho's emotionally unavailable,
and that'll play out.
And I'll act like I'm notbecause they aren't.
They because they're notavailable.
So I'll I'll project it ontothem when really I'm probably
(23:25):
not emotionally available.
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
Which is Well, that's still projection.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
Yeah, it is still projection, but it can get
complicated as far as bringingthe other element in as to why
I'm attracted to who I'mattracted to.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
Yeah.
So it's uh it's projection, butit's it's complicated by all the
family of origin issues thatyou've had.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
I mean, and that's that's why I, you know, when I
point out to people, and it's,you know, it's like common
sense, but on some level it'salways a surprise when when you
realize when you point out tothe fact that they married their
mother, they married theirfather.
I mean, it's a classic thing, orpeople smile and go, Oh, yeah, I
did.
I mean, yeah, you did.
And that's a projection.
You had nothing to do with love.
(24:05):
And that's why I use theanalogy.
There can be two equallyattractive people.
I'm more attracted to that onethan this one.
Why is that?
Because there's crap here.
I mean, there's stuff here.
Excuse the, excuse the word.
There's stuff here that I needto work on.
But who's gonna who's gonnalisten to you when you're 23,
24, 25?
They're just in love.
18, 19, 20.
(24:26):
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Uh yeah, I'm trying to update itfor the current culture.
And I should go farther thanthat, 27, 28, 29.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
So Yeah.
That's true.
So what again, we've touched onthis in previous episodes, but
now specifically aboutprojection.
What is it that creates a bit ofa crisis that relationships that
have been going on for severalyears, all of a sudden it's not
working like it used to?
(24:58):
And the projections that wereoriginally attractive now become
irritating and frustrating.
Is that typically because we'veevolved and we're not the same
person that we were five yearsprior, or is it because we're
becoming self-aware, or becauseit's no longer satisfying for it
to be externally dependent andyou're longing for something
(25:19):
more than that?
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Well, you know, the easy answer is all the above.
Yeah.
Because again, there they're notthe the projection falls apart.
They're no longer the very thingthat the attraction at beginning
drives you nuts.
Because you think somehow thatthat trait will go away or
whatever it is.
So it's all of those, all thosethings.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
I think once you begin to be aware of these
projection issues, eventuallyyou come to a point in time
where you're confronted withwhat I think is a crucial step
in the evolution of health.
And that's a confrontation ofthe shadow being projected again
and again.
Not to say that what ourdiscussion so far didn't include
(26:06):
the shadow, it certainly waspart of the shadow.
But that portion that we vilifyin others, you touched on it at
the very beginning of thisepisode, but there's a lot of
projection that is notvilification.
But when we begin to face theshadow side of our life, we have
to come to grips with how weimpose on our opponents or our
(26:32):
enemies or the other or thosewho are not like us and begin to
wrestle with the them in me.
We are culturally in a placewhere we vilify each other
politically, and we we do thatwith racial biases, we do that
(26:52):
with faith prejudices, we we doit over and over again where the
other is wrong and is the sourceof all kinds of problems, when
in fact this notion ofprojection uh eventually leads
us to a place where I have toadmit, oh, they're actually
(27:14):
voicing something that issomewhere deep inside of me.
Yeah.
And and that's that's hard tosay, yep, I have that kind of
anger in me, or I had that kindof rage in me, or I have that
kind of prejudice or bias in me.
And I need to bring it to thesurface so that it doesn't trap
(27:39):
me into being the same personthat I'm angry about.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Can't say I can't add anything to that.
I mean, that's exactly right.
And we're the, you know, I don'tknow much you want to get into
that part of it, but the the theway the the world's playing out
right now, that's exactly wherewe're at.
We can't if we can't own it, andwhat happens, why do wars
happen?
Well, you you defeat your enemy.
And then you get into discussionabout is there true evil in the
(28:06):
world, is is it good and evil,and all the other stuff.
But some would even say that theunexpressed evil in ourselves is
projected at collectively, andthen somebody will come along
and carry the projection andbehave in ways that would
reinforce my belief system, butit could be perceived by the
other side as evil and the otherside as good.
(28:28):
And you're right, it's uh it's adual projection of things that I
deny in myself.
And again, then you get into thewhole conversation about
collectivism versusindividualism, and that's that's
always an interestingconversation that we probably
aren't.
I'm not skilled enough to haveat this point.
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
So I would say, though, that there is an
interesting dynamic within theChristian faith that goes back
and forth between an individualfaith and a collective community
faith.
And I think the answer to thatis yes to both.
But I would also say that veryoften within that particular
(29:08):
faith tradition, the collectivework is much more palatable than
the individual work.
Once we've had this faith crisismoment, so often it feels like,
oh, and that's done.
Now I can move on to influencingthe world, when in fact that's
(29:30):
just the beginning of the inwardjourney to try and discover what
there is within me thatcontributes to the conflict
that's taking place.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
Yeah, for me, my own personal philosophy really is if
I've done my individual work,and whether whether it's Christ
consciousness or the divine orhowever you want to frame it, if
I've done my work, this is justmy my my opinion, my journey,
then I live my life in a waythat attracts.
(30:00):
And I don't need to say much.
Through my actions, through myinteractions, through my
treating people with respect asbest I can, at the same time
taking care of myselfemotionally.
As I live out the divine natureor the Christ consciousness
where love is demanded, but loveis complicated.
It doesn't mean I'm I'm apushover.
(30:21):
It means I love myself as wellas I love others.
I live that out.
There is no need necessarily atthat point to preach the gospel,
even though that's a part of it,depending on your developmental
levels of where you're at.
I think as you grow and mature,you get to a place where you
just live out authentically thatthat expression.
(30:43):
You don't you don't shy awayfrom expressing it, but you also
don't go into every conversationthinking you have to express it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
It's just a way of being I love that a way of
being.
I can't imagine a better spot tobring an end to this particular
episode.
I appreciate it, Jim.
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
It's been And if you want to edit that last part out,
I I can understand that.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
Yeah.
So I just said it was a greatplace to end, and you needed to
minimize that.
I'm not sure why that was true.
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
But because I'm very aware that we're filled with
opinions in the world andeverybody's got one.
So I I I hold that all allsacred in a sacred way that
everybody has a view of things.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (31:25):
Jim, thanks.
Always great to be with you, myfriend.
SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
All right, buddy.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
Thanks.
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
(31:49):
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com, orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
(32:11):
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome everyone.
We're here jumping into a topicthat we've referenced numerous
times, but we've really notgiven a good definition.
We don't want to make theassumption that everybody is
familiar with the idea ofprojection.
And when we talk about the waysin which our personality styles
play themselves out with othersin relationship, we have to be
(00:24):
aware of projections that takeplace that are sometimes
directed toward us by others andbecome self-aware enough that we
can see when we are projectingsome of the stuff that's in us
onto those with whom we're inrelationship.
So, Jim, we're going to jumpinto that topic.
And I'd love if you could helpus a little bit with kind of a
(00:49):
working definition that you usewith clients when you're talking
about projection.
How do you, for somebody who'snot familiar with the idea at
all, how do you begin tointroduce it to them?
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Well, let me let me first start by stating it's
probably I state it probably toostrong because m my sense is
that most of life is projection.
So so I realize that's a littlebit overstated, maybe, you know?
So but I I I introduce itbasically by saying that the
denied aspect of myself I'lltypically find in someone else.
(01:22):
And so that's projection.
So if there's a trait that Ihave that I don't want to see or
I don't want to acknowledge,I'll almost always find it and
then I'll attack that person,and that's where I'll say, well,
you're probably projecting somethings about yourself onto that
person.
That's usually how I introduceit.
Especially like in couples andin couples counseling.
It's pretty easy to identifywhen they're accusing their
(01:45):
their uh mate or their partnerof being, so let's say
controlling, and yet they'rereally controlling themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
So Yeah, I I actually think you shouldn't
back off too quickly from thenotion that all of life is
projection.
Uh because it comes out in somany ways, just like the shadow
comes out in so many ways thatwe are not aware of.
Projection does come out all thetime, and it comes out in often
ways that are not nefarious orproblematic.
(02:15):
But sometimes uh a person willpose a question to another
individual.
So somebody might say, Do youwant to watch a documentary
tonight?
And the question really is, areyou trying to say that you'd
like to watch a documentarytonight?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Absolutely.
The joke is when we were doingthis trip to Alaska, it got to
the point if someone were toask, so is anybody thirsty?
It's typically you're saying,Are you thirsty?
Do you want to stop?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Yeah.
And for those who don't know,you took a trip to Alaska with
your brothers, uh, a drivingtrip, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
So how many how many miles was it total?
We did 8,700 miles in 16 days.
Yeah.
Dro driving time is about 120hours, I think, something like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Aaron Ross Powell So four brothers in a truck for
that many hours.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Uh the oldest being 80 and the youngest being 72 at
the time.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
Wow.
That should have been a podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Well, it it would have been a it would have been
an interesting one.
No, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
That was a great example.
Is anybody thirsty?
Is a question that is really aprojection because it's not
about anybody else.
You just don't want to be alonein the being the one to say,
could we stop?
Because we just stopped an hourand a half ago.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
No, I would say that the responder or the the
enablers in that that frame,they would genuinely say it and
mean, does anybody need need todo it?
But typically it's a projectionof I want to stop.
Like they're need meters.
So they would anticipate.
Now, they might, on a deeperlevel, be denying the the aspect
(03:57):
that they really wanted to stopas well.
unknown (03:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Because the need meter needer always places their
needs last, but they also canframe it taking care of somebody
else because that's how theytake care of themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
So you just use the word a couple of times, need
meter, which have not heard youuse.
But it but is that a respondertypically?
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
I'm sorry, yes.
We didn't talk about that whenwe talked about a responder.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
I don't think so.
I think you we talked aboutmeeting other people's needs.
I just never heard the phraseneed meter.
Oh, okay.
No, that's what I refer to as aneed meter.
unknown (04:27):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
They anticipate every need.
Now, I think that's aprojection, but to get a need
meter to identify that as beinga projection is really
difficult.
Because it challenges theirwhole sense of self.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I I agree because in many ways
that's the projection of wantingto be needed, wanting to be
important in this system, andwanting to be recognized as
somebody who takes care ofothers.
And so even in that expressionof anybody here needing
something to drink, is this thetime we ought to be thinking
(04:59):
about stopping?
And again, that's not nefarious.
There's nothing wrong with it,but it does reveal part of what
is the internal mechanism of anindividual's personality style.
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Yeah.
I mean, uh again, I have a greatfriend, you know her.
And you know, it it I'm surethis is an exaggeration, as I
sometimes do.
But like, you know, every halfhour, hour, she'll ask, you want
something to drink?
You want something to eat?
Yeah, it's it's it's justinteresting.
They anticipate all that.
(05:31):
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Is so it is it becomes difficult when you're on
the receiving end of projection.
It truly would be for anindividual that you just
described, um, she's notprojecting that she's hungry or
thirsty, but to realize thatthere is something else that's
getting projected and what itmeans to be a good friend in
responding to that, particularlyif it comes to a point with not
(05:56):
necessarily her, but anybody,where it becomes incredibly
irritating.
Yes, absolutely.
That they seem very unaware ofwhat they're doing or what's
happening.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
And if you had to interpret it, you it would you'd
be interpreting it as they're soidentified with meeting needs
that that's how they find asignificance for themselves.
So when they they want to meetyour need all the time, because
that's that's so personal tothem.
Yeah.
But you're right, it it canabsolutely and then you don't
want to get too harsh becausethen they you can hurt their
(06:27):
feelings because they're justtrying to help.
So yes, that dance is that danceof intimacy in some ways is so
interesting because the verything they're trying to do is
help, and yet a lot of men orthe masculine would simply go,
oh my word, no, if I'm hungry,I'll come and get something to
eat.
SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
So when we begin to understand what projection is,
that inward unconscious withinthat gets thrown out on somebody
else in so many different ways.
Why is it important for us tounderstand that it's happening?
There's some really key thingsin a relationship that if you're
(07:08):
not aware of projection, you youcan go down some pathways that
are very unproductive.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, on on this uh surface onthe deeper level, really
understanding the way youproject is the really massive
doorway to self-awareness.
I mean, the the more yourealize, wait a minute, what am
I what what do I really wanthere?
When you are aware of thatprojection piece, you just pull
(07:37):
the projection back.
I mean, that's what I think wemay have talked about at one
point, but in the datingrelationship, you're going to be
something for me that I need.
Well, that what I call thedisappointment phase where that
all that that falls apart, and Irealize I projected onto them
something that they I want themto do for me, that I end up
ultimately 10 or 15 years into arelationship, I really have to
(07:59):
do for myself because it alwaysfalls apart.
And that's the that's thethreatening part of a
relationship, whether it's youknow, between five and fifteen
years, where typically I realizethey're not who I thought they
were going to be.
And again, the pullback of theprojection is I'm not who I
thought I was either.
SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Oh, yeah.
So important.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Yeah, absolutely true.
And that and that's it's itsounds like a negative term, and
couples kind of react to it whenI use it, but it it it's the
disappointment phase, not onlyin myself, but in the other
person.
It's not a negative.
It's like, okay, let's regrouphere and figure out what we need
to do now that we really knowwho we're married to and who we
really are, at least at thatpoint in life.
(08:40):
I think that's the value ofunderstanding what projection
is.
Because if we don't do that,then we just keep fighting crazy
battles.
We don't even know why we'refighting them, because they were
supposed to do something for me,I was supposed to do something
for them that was neverrealistic, but in the dating
phase felt so nice because itwas being met.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
I remember working with a couple that was they had
actually moved to theconversation about divorce.
And as I tried to go back andget to the point where all of
this started, this debate, thefrustration and anger, both of
(09:20):
them honestly came to a spotwhere it was he asked her to get
a glass of orange juice for him,and she said no.
And that was what resulted inthis this movement toward a
divorce, and the the issuewasn't the orange juice, it was
(09:43):
everything else that thatsymbolized, of course.
But when they were looking atwhen the degeneration began, it
was over a glass of orangejuice.
And it it's because there wasthis lack of self-awareness of
self, of other, and they didsome amazing work to become far
more self-aware in theirjourney.
(10:04):
Really incredible work.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah, because the anal the analogy is is so
interesting in the sense thatthere was an expectation that it
was her job to get me orangejuice, my guess is.
And so you have to break apartall those expectations.
That's why, you know, even doingcounseling with couples before
they get married or wherethey're wherever they're
(10:26):
permanent, you have to, as bestyou can, disclose what their
unconscious projections are ortheir expectations are.
Like, for example, thetraditional one is, well, she's
supposed to do the laundry andclean, right?
Or cook or whatever that is.
I mean, that's way back.
And it's like they don't do itor they don't get the orange
juice, and all of a sudden it'slike, seriously?
(10:47):
You won't give me the orangejuice?
Well, no, because there's anexpectation you'll do it.
If you're okay, this this is thedance of intimacy.
If she doesn't, if she says no,he goes, okay, and he gets up
and gets his orange juice andhe's fine with it.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Absolutely.
That's growing up for mypersonal, yep.
Yep.
Um And if you and if you dothat, you genuinely get up, and
I call it a heart change.
If I genuinely get up and get myown orange juice, my partner
will see that, and oftentimesthey will get it the next time.
Because there's no negativetoxicity that that's a demand
(11:22):
that I have to do.
unknown (11:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Again, the power of the choice.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
Power of the choice.
Um, you you talk about theimportance of understanding
projection, and so far most ofwhat we've said has been this
self-awareness of when I'm doingthat.
Like the greater I become moreaware of the workings inside of
(11:49):
me, my defense mechanisms, theunresolved issues, the way I
have depended on somebody elseto fulfill something that I
needed to fill my fulfill myselfin my own way by understanding
who I am.
I don't know that it's alwayssequential that what follows is
(12:09):
greater awareness of the other.
Maybe it happens simultaneously,but I think one of the very
important reasons to understandprojection is to stop taking so
personally things that othersproject onto you.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Yeah.
I mean, uh if there's anythingthat makes such a difference in
life, just in general, uh justquit taking person take thing
taking things personally.
unknown (12:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
I mean, it's it's a it's a great trait.
It's a Buddhist principle.
I mean, it's it's it's thisthing that, yeah, even if it is,
okay, we can do something aboutit or not.
It's like if you're all you'regonna do is get defensive about
it and try to defend yourselfand all that cra okay, well that
where's that gonna get you?
So to realize that anycriticism, okay, so the value of
(12:55):
taking it personally would be toget to a place where you don't
take it personally, but youmight get the value of it.
There may be some truth in it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one of the I don't knowwhen I started doing this, but
I've done it for years whenthere's been some pretty harsh
critique about something I'vedone or said.
And inwardly is this voice thatsays, Is there a kernel and of
truth in there that you need tolearn?
If so, take it and then let goof everything else.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
Yeah, again, let's go back, let's go back to our
whole series here.
You have a little you have astronger feminine energy.
So that's going to be morenatural for you to do it.
And so I think for your journey,it's been getting in touch with
the masculine side that maybeyou need to defend yourself.
Does make sense?
Sure.
Sure.
And so I think that's where thestrong masculine would have a
(13:47):
hard time.
That's why they have to get intouch with the feminine side
that's relationally driven andwant to be motivated to
understanding the kernel oftruth in it.
Whereas the strong masculinewould either avoid it, dismiss
it, say you're crazy, you're anidiot.
I don't agree with that, andmove on.
And that's why, again, our wholetheory, our whole, our whole
sense of this series is you'rebalancing those out, knowing
(14:09):
when to enact the feminine andwhen to legitimately perhaps
defend yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Yeah.
I agree with that.
I I think what I would contend,though, is that masculine or
feminine, dynamic or static, allof those styles can be
completely unaware ofprojections taking place.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's a great point.
Yeah, you're right.
And so even though themasculine, particularly dynamic
(14:36):
masculine, would say you'recrazy and dismiss it, they still
have been left with a positionwhere they are unaware, both of
themselves and others, thatprojection is taking place and
the defense mechanism went out.
That's what dismissal is, is adefense mechanism.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Absolutely.
I was just going to say that.
They they have taken itpersonally by dismissing it.
unknown (15:02):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (15:02):
Right.
Right.
And so I think that there isthis wonderful freedom.
You mentioned it earlier, thatit is a core teaching of some
faith traditions to recognizethat you don't take things
personally.
It is a freedom that comes whereyou kind of just take a deep
breath and go, ha, that reallywasn't all about me.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
That was and that's what we do.
One of your questions is aboutfamily of origin.
We carry projections of parentsa lot.
Aaron Powell Please expand onthat because I think that's so
important.
So let's say you're raised byparents who haven't been
introduced to any kind ofpsychology of self or
self-awareness, and they're justreacting from how they were how
(15:48):
they were raised.
And so they will project.
I mean, the classic thing issports.
Let's say, you know, you have akid who you didn't you did
pretty well in sports, but notgreat.
Well, your kid comes along, he'snaturally more gifted.
You're going to live throughthat kid.
And it's a classic thing wherethey say he's living through his
son.
So he gets waked tied up intoit.
(16:09):
He's he's coaching the kid, he'son his back all the time.
That's a classic case ofprojection where the kid then
feels pressure to carry that.
And I've known cases where thekid will be in a sport, they
don't want to play that sport atall.
They're playing it because dadloves that sport or mom loved
that sport.
And so a conversation I have inmy office is, okay, what's he
(16:30):
really interested in?
Well, he wants to play the pianoor something like that.
I go, okay, does he practice?
Yeah, he practices all the time.
But he's really good in soccer.
Well, does he like soccer?
Well, yeah, he's really good atit.
I go, no, does he like soccer?
Does he enjoy it?
I don't know.
I'd never ask him that.
Or whatever, however thatconversation goes.
(16:51):
That's that's a classic kind ofuh sports-related projection
where the kid feels pressure tocarry that.
But on so many emotional levels,parents sad all the time, or a
parent struggles withdepression, a kid will carry
that.
They'll carry the projection ofthat parent, and they'll enable,
they'll become codependent.
All those tentacles are allabout carrying a family member's
(17:15):
projection.
SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
Yeah, I think I think it's sometimes we have a
difficult time detangling fromfamily of origin.
And I think actually projectionis a wonderful doorway to open
up for an individual to see howthose projections take place,
how one particular member of afamily is the peacemaker and
(17:36):
then carries that into adultlife, or one particular
individual is the one who isalways messing up, or uh
mistakes in a particular area,and they carry that into
adulthood.
And it's it's a tape that'sactually not true, but it is a
tape that brings about outcomesthat seem to reinforce those
(17:57):
things because you've neverchallenged the projection of the
family onto you.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
And that that's another way of looking at it.
Some face faith systems, like Ithink Christianity has a strong
sense of generational sin, theycall it.
Well, from a psychologicalperspective, it could be
generational projection wherethe parent hasn't dealt with
something and they they pass iton down the the system in that
sense, another kid will pick upand carry that projection.
(18:25):
And a lot of family systems haveprojections they carry, whether
it's of wealth.
I mean, there can be all kindsof projections.
They seem to always have wealthin it.
So the kid carries thatprojection.
It's not always a negative or apositive, it's just a
projection.
Yeah.
And that's like people peopleraised in a more of a poverty
mindset, they'll carry thatprojection on.
They don't deserve to be wealthyor whatever that whatever that
(18:48):
is.
The way you break that isobviously is to understand, wait
a minute, what am I I don't haveto be this.
I can be different.
So it's that differentiationthat that's threatening to
family systems as well.
unknown (19:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
If you break away and go to a different faith
system or whatever that you'reraised in, it threatens the
system as well.
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
Aaron Powell Yeah, that's a great point.
The faith system itself becomesa projection.
Yeah.
And until you have to do it.
Yeah.
And until you break theprojection, the faith system
never really is your own.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
You have to embrace it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
And a lot of people I mean, they say, I mean, I
mean, this was an anecdotalpercentage, but uh back when I
studied more of this, it waslike 60% of people raised in a
faith system will leave thatsystem to go to someplace else.
And in my mind, that's apsychological break of the
projection.
Oftentimes they may throw awaytheir faith altogether, but
oftentimes they'll go back andembrace a different faith
(19:41):
system.
And then sometimes as theyunderstand their own journey,
they'll go back and embracetheir original faith system
because they now own it.
unknown (19:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
It's like growing up, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Yeah, it's uh faith individuation uh is really
important.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Yeah.
unknown (19:58):
Definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
We have talked quite a bit about projection in dating
relationships, but it seems realimportant to just touch base on
that again, as one of the waysthat we find attractiveness is
projecting our own lack andfinding it on someone else or in
(20:20):
someone else, and becomingdependent upon that person to
supply that part of who we are.
So just as a reminder from someof the previous conversations,
what are some of the naturalattractions that you see often
taking place?
I certainly can give somepersonal examples and have in
previous episodes.
But give us a few.
(21:12):
I love guys to come.
Do you have any videos of that?
You have any videos of that?
They came to my house to do thefirst rehearsal.
And uh the piano.
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
How'd your dad react to that?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
My dad wasn't around for the rehearsal.
I'm not sure.
I I had recruited a great pianoplayer, great musician, who also
had perfect pitch.
And he told me, he said, rightin the middle of the rehearsal,
he said, Dee, you you're sharp.
And I said, Thank you.
But we need to get back to themusic.
He said, No, no, no, musicallyyou're sharp.
(21:46):
I don't I don't know how to fixthis.
And uh so I got kicked out of myown quartet on the first
rehearsal.
So anyway, that that was mypursuit of something that was
very different than my ownnatural tendencies, and included
(22:07):
with that musical side was kindof the mystical way of looking
at the world through music,through art.
And it just was not part of whoI was, but it was attractive in
every way.
And it was my projection ontosomeone else, the part of me
(22:27):
that was undeveloped, andleaning into someone else to
provide that because I didn'tknow how to access it.
So it wasn't that the projectionwas a wrong thing.
It was just an unconsciousthing.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
If you if you were able to interview in a d
in-depth the people, the peoplethat you're naturally attracted
to, you would find a lot ofunconscious psychological
dynamics about yourself.
I mean, the classic one is Imean, it gets it gets a little
bit complicated as far asattraction is concerned, because
I do believe you're attracted tothe parent you have the most
(23:02):
issues with emotionally, butthat also can be a projection.
So if if I if I project the factthat I'm really emotionally
unavailable, and I don't want toadmit it because I think I am,
I'll be attracted to somebodywho's emotionally unavailable,
and that'll play out.
And I'll act like I'm notbecause they aren't.
They because they're notavailable.
So I'll I'll project it ontothem when really I'm probably
(23:25):
not emotionally available.
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
Which is Well, that's still projection.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
Yeah, it is still projection, but it can get
complicated as far as bringingthe other element in as to why
I'm attracted to who I'mattracted to.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
Yeah.
So it's uh it's projection, butit's it's complicated by all the
family of origin issues thatyou've had.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
I mean, and that's that's why I, you know, when I
point out to people, and it's,you know, it's like common
sense, but on some level it'salways a surprise when when you
realize when you point out tothe fact that they married their
mother, they married theirfather.
I mean, it's a classic thing, orpeople smile and go, Oh, yeah, I
did.
I mean, yeah, you did.
And that's a projection.
You had nothing to do with love.
(24:05):
And that's why I use theanalogy.
There can be two equallyattractive people.
I'm more attracted to that onethan this one.
Why is that?
Because there's crap here.
I mean, there's stuff here.
Excuse the, excuse the word.
There's stuff here that I needto work on.
But who's gonna who's gonnalisten to you when you're 23,
24, 25?
They're just in love.
18, 19, 20.
(24:26):
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Uh yeah, I'm trying to update itfor the current culture.
And I should go farther thanthat, 27, 28, 29.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
So Yeah.
That's true.
So what again, we've touched onthis in previous episodes, but
now specifically aboutprojection.
What is it that creates a bit ofa crisis that relationships that
have been going on for severalyears, all of a sudden it's not
working like it used to?
(24:58):
And the projections that wereoriginally attractive now become
irritating and frustrating.
Is that typically because we'veevolved and we're not the same
person that we were five yearsprior, or is it because we're
becoming self-aware, or becauseit's no longer satisfying for it
to be externally dependent andyou're longing for something
(25:19):
more than that?
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Well, you know, the easy answer is all the above.
Yeah.
Because again, there they're notthe the projection falls apart.
They're no longer the very thingthat the attraction at beginning
drives you nuts.
Because you think somehow thatthat trait will go away or
whatever it is.
So it's all of those, all thosethings.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
I think once you begin to be aware of these
projection issues, eventuallyyou come to a point in time
where you're confronted withwhat I think is a crucial step
in the evolution of health.
And that's a confrontation ofthe shadow being projected again
and again.
Not to say that what ourdiscussion so far didn't include
(26:06):
the shadow, it certainly waspart of the shadow.
But that portion that we vilifyin others, you touched on it at
the very beginning of thisepisode, but there's a lot of
projection that is notvilification.
But when we begin to face theshadow side of our life, we have
to come to grips with how weimpose on our opponents or our
(26:32):
enemies or the other or thosewho are not like us and begin to
wrestle with the them in me.
We are culturally in a placewhere we vilify each other
politically, and we we do thatwith racial biases, we do that
(26:52):
with faith prejudices, we we doit over and over again where the
other is wrong and is the sourceof all kinds of problems, when
in fact this notion ofprojection uh eventually leads
us to a place where I have toadmit, oh, they're actually
(27:14):
voicing something that issomewhere deep inside of me.
Yeah.
And and that's that's hard tosay, yep, I have that kind of
anger in me, or I had that kindof rage in me, or I have that
kind of prejudice or bias in me.
And I need to bring it to thesurface so that it doesn't trap
(27:39):
me into being the same personthat I'm angry about.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Can't say I can't add anything to that.
I mean, that's exactly right.
And we're the, you know, I don'tknow much you want to get into
that part of it, but the the theway the the world's playing out
right now, that's exactly wherewe're at.
We can't if we can't own it, andwhat happens, why do wars
happen?
Well, you you defeat your enemy.
And then you get into discussionabout is there true evil in the
(28:06):
world, is is it good and evil,and all the other stuff.
But some would even say that theunexpressed evil in ourselves is
projected at collectively, andthen somebody will come along
and carry the projection andbehave in ways that would
reinforce my belief system, butit could be perceived by the
other side as evil and the otherside as good.
(28:28):
And you're right, it's uh it's adual projection of things that I
deny in myself.
And again, then you get into thewhole conversation about
collectivism versusindividualism, and that's that's
always an interestingconversation that we probably
aren't.
I'm not skilled enough to haveat this point.
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
So I would say, though, that there is an
interesting dynamic within theChristian faith that goes back
and forth between an individualfaith and a collective community
faith.
And I think the answer to thatis yes to both.
But I would also say that veryoften within that particular
(29:08):
faith tradition, the collectivework is much more palatable than
the individual work.
Once we've had this faith crisismoment, so often it feels like,
oh, and that's done.
Now I can move on to influencingthe world, when in fact that's
(29:30):
just the beginning of the inwardjourney to try and discover what
there is within me thatcontributes to the conflict
that's taking place.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
Yeah, for me, my own personal philosophy really is if
I've done my individual work,and whether whether it's Christ
consciousness or the divine orhowever you want to frame it, if
I've done my work, this is justmy my my opinion, my journey,
then I live my life in a waythat attracts.
(30:00):
And I don't need to say much.
Through my actions, through myinteractions, through my
treating people with respect asbest I can, at the same time
taking care of myselfemotionally.
As I live out the divine natureor the Christ consciousness
where love is demanded, but loveis complicated.
It doesn't mean I'm I'm apushover.
(30:21):
It means I love myself as wellas I love others.
I live that out.
There is no need necessarily atthat point to preach the gospel,
even though that's a part of it,depending on your developmental
levels of where you're at.
I think as you grow and mature,you get to a place where you
just live out authentically thatthat expression.
(30:43):
You don't you don't shy awayfrom expressing it, but you also
don't go into every conversationthinking you have to express it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
It's just a way of being I love that a way of
being.
I can't imagine a better spot tobring an end to this particular
episode.
I appreciate it, Jim.
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
It's been And if you want to edit that last part out,
I I can understand that.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
Yeah.
So I just said it was a greatplace to end, and you needed to
minimize that.
I'm not sure why that was true.
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
But because I'm very aware that we're filled with
opinions in the world andeverybody's got one.
So I I I hold that all allsacred in a sacred way that
everybody has a view of things.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (31:25):
Jim, thanks.
Always great to be with you, myfriend.
SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
All right, buddy.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
Thanks.
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
(31:49):
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com, orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
(32:11):
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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