January 7, 2026 • 22 mins
What if your stress, your arguments, and your burnout all point to one simple mismatch—using the right energy at the wrong time? We explore a Jungian-informed model of four energies—Stabilizer, Transformer, Initiator, Responder (STIR)—and show how balancing them reduces conflict, eases burnout, and strengthens relationships. Real client stories ground the ideas in clear steps you can use.
We start with the Stabilizer: the part that craves order, fairness, and control. Through real therapy and coaching stories, we trace how chaos at home or work pushes Stabilizers into rigidity, and how a subtle shift—setting boundaries for yourself rather than managing everyone else—brings relief. From there we meet the Transformer, the intuitive creative who sees possibilities others miss. We talk charisma, dry spells, and why epiphanies without structure stall. You’ll hear practical ways to ground big ideas.
Then we move to the Initiator, the action engine that turns vision into motion. We explore how to keep momentum without steamrolling context, creating cadences that protect scope and relationships. Finally, we honor the Responder, the caregiver who anticipates needs until they’re exhausted. We dig into false guilt, overfunctioning, and the healing power of being witnessed—how feeling heard restores energy and makes boundaries possible. Throughout, we map how these four energies collaborate. Integration is the goal, not perfection—borrowing the right voice at the right moment so life feels less like a fight and more like flow.
If the model resonates, share this episode with a friend who’d benefit, and consider which energy you want to practice this week. Subscribe for more grounded psychology, leave a review to help others find the show, and reach out if you’d like to work with us one-on-one.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:13):
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
My name is D.
Kelly, and my co-host Jim Shaleyis here with me.
And we're coming toward the endof this particular season, this
series on personality styles,looking at a model by which we
can understand ourselves andunderstand others and the
relationships that we're in.
(00:33):
And it is a theory that is bornout of Jungian psychology.
And it allows us to look at themasculine and feminine energies
within all of us, the dynamicand static movement within all
of us.
And we've been working on thatfor about 12 episodes, and we're
going to try and pull some ofthese things together this
(00:54):
episode.
And so we want to do a bit of areview, a little bit of reminder
of the places where we've comefrom and how this might help us
as we look toward the future.
And this time I'm going to stopwith each descriptor in the word
stir and ask you to think inyour mind of a client that came
(01:16):
to you that fit that particularcategory.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay, sure.
Put me on spot here.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
No, and I don't want you to name specifics.
I just want you to say what'sthe kind of thing that brought
them in and made them think, Ineed help.
What kind of conflict might thisperson experience or what might
they see?
So STERB begins with S, thestabilizer, which is a masculine
(01:42):
static energy.
And the characteristics are thatthey are organizers, they put
systems in place, they careabout justice as it is equal to
all.
Any other characteristics thatyou want to generally add
concerning the stabilizer?
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Aaron Ross Powell They want peace, they are
perfectionistic, they're kind ofinflexible, they set limits or
boundaries, they fit into groupexpectations, they're pretty
disciplined.
So there's a lot of a lot ofrigidity to it in that sense.
(02:19):
Yes.
And so unfortunately, whatbrings them into therapy
typically is someone who'screated chaos.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Aaron Powell Great point.
It's creating the thing they'reuncomfortable with.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Absolutely true.
So they'll come in and out andthey can't control things.
They have a teenager who's, youknow, getting high all the time,
things that they cannot control.
And so that brings them intotherapy.
And that's a tough one becauseit makes sense in their minds.
You got to help me bring m makemy kid behave.
Or I have a lady right now whohe's got a 16-year-old kid who's
(02:51):
who's going to be in probablyincredibly successful in making
money in lots of different ways.
Let's just say.
Yeah.
And she's like, he just he'sout, he's on Facebook
marketplace buying and sellingand stuff.
I don't even know.
He's and so she's a very strongstabilizer.
And so she obviously has causedher stress.
(03:11):
And so I'm supposed to help herbring control to him, which
obviously I can only help bringcontrol to her.
So in that sense, you reallyhave to reframe how she's using
her natural energy internally.
And so you don't necessarilypush him to other quadrants.
You just get them to handlethings they can they can handle,
(03:34):
which is how do you bringstability to yourself?
How do you use your naturalstrength to set boundaries with
you?
Well, it's setting boundarieswith her kid, uh, the limits,
all those things that makesense.
Now, in order to help them dothat, then you move them to the,
what I would say more likely thefeminine responder.
(03:56):
So they have to give themselveslots of grace, lots of space,
and really benefit the value ofthe stabilizer and not be so
frustrated, but realize it it'sreally trying to help, but right
now you can only help yourself.
So that would be an example ofthe stabilizer.
That is a great example.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
I think for the stabilizer, we've used this
phrase many, many times inprevious episodes, but I think
the stabilizer is one of theindividuals who is most subject
to feeling like how can youargue against the rightness of
being organized and in order?
(04:35):
And so that phrase, do you wantto be right or be in
relationship, hits home for thestabilizer in both painful and
important ways.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's move on to the next oneof Stir.
It is the Transformer, which isthis feminine dynamic energy, an
expression that is incrediblyintuitive, sometimes almost
(05:00):
prophetic voice, the poet, theartist.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
At least they think they think they are.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
They're usually drinking or getting high at the
time, but you know, that's adifferent conversation.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
That's at the extreme.
And and often I would, in givingkind of an excuse for that uh
addictive response, is that theworld often doesn't know what to
do with the transformer, and sothey don't know where they fit.
And it is this feeling not apart of the larger system that
(05:34):
sometimes leads to those things.
So how about this individual,what leads them to come in to
see you or face the problem thatit that they don't understand
themselves well enough orsomething?
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
Well, the uh to be really honest about it, they're
typically in relationship withthe stabilizer.
So they'll almost always come inwith the stabilizer part of
themselves that's bread that'sdragging them into therapy a
little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
Aaron Ross Powell So they've externalized that part
of them, the stabilizer.
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Or that's addictions therapy.
They'll go to an addictionstherapist because they've
they've gotten too excessive insome of their habits.
I have a young guy right nowwho's who cannot get off of
nicotine.
He's been smoking cigarettessince he was 13.
He shifted a while back tovaping, but still with nicotine.
(06:29):
And yeah, he's he's anincredible transformer.
I mean, he he's an incrediblebird hunter.
He travels the world searchingbirds and stuff.
But he's but he came in thisweek and he was just saying, I
gotta, I, I, I gotta quit thisvaping.
It's it's crazy.
I cannot I cannot go uh in themiddle of the night I'm picking
it up and and getting a hit ofnicotine.
So that's that's the extreme.
(06:50):
They they come in sometimes forthat, but usually it's with a in
a relationship where they'vebeen too excessive.
Or they don't set boundaries orthey don't keep a job.
Again, that's the negative sideof it.
The positive side of it, they'revery inspirational.
They're creative, they uh theyreally do transform things
because they see the worlddifferently than other people.
(07:13):
So in that sense, they could getcarried away with their ideas
and not make a living.
So they would come in and theywould be incredibly energetic,
fun to talk to, good sense ofhumor.
But then you ask them, well, sowhat's what's bringing you in?
Well, I can't seem to keep ajob.
My my husband or my wifebasically says I I'm way too
(07:35):
much fun, I'm too spontaneous, Idon't I don't sit still.
Sometimes the diagnosis ADHDkicks in, all that stuff.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
Yeah, I I think that it's probably dangerous for
those of us who aren'ttransformers to underestimate
the attractiveness of certainaspects of the transformer.
They have can have a a charismaabout them.
Oh, geez, absolutely.
(08:05):
And the way in which they seethe world is often surprising,
or or that they say what youthought, but you didn't think
you could say, and they say itanyway, because they say what
comes to their mind very often.
And that freedom that they seem.
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
The social social media is filled with that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Yeah.
I think that's right.
Um, and I think that the freedomthey seem to express can be kind
of envied by others, but alsothe freedom that they express
kind of covers sometimes afeeling of lack of freedom.
Like they are restricted in manyways.
They have parents who pressedthem or pushed them down.
(08:51):
They had employers that keptputting boundaries on them.
They uh and there is thisstrange thing about freedom of
expression, but feeling likethey are butting up against a
wall over and over again.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
Yeah, the interesting thing about them is
that when you get one engaged intherapy, the good side of their
style is they're really open tonew new ways of looking at
things.
Now, they may have a hard timeimplementing them, because
again, they're such they're suchgood with ideas, because they'll
get excited, they'll have anepiphany every other session.
But again, implementing it,which is the stabilizer part,
(09:27):
which is typically they're inrelationship with.
And I will tell couples all thetime that have that dynamic, you
have a really good workingrelationship, but right now you
do not value each other.
You're trying to defeat eachother rather than working
cooperatively, because astabilizer would say, No, we
can't possibly do that.
Oh my word, you're way out,you're way out of, you're out of
your mind.
And the stabilizer then feelswhat?
(09:48):
Shut down.
So then they they feeldiscouraged and they pull back.
That's why so many of theconversations I've had, and
again, it's sometimes flipping,but typically it's the the the
male who is incredibly uhidea-driven, sees the
possibilities, and wants to gofor it.
(10:09):
And I will say, he's a dreamer.
That's what he does.
Well, what does a stabilizerkick into when someone dreams?
They kick into, well, let's makeit happen.
How are we going to make ithappen?
Well, then typically the thetransformer doesn't have the
skill set to go to a bank and doa business plan to start a
business, and then thestabilizer will come along and
(10:32):
want to do that, and then it'llfrustrate the transformer
because the the stabilizer istaking control of it.
So you can see where that goes.
And that that's just, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:41):
And the stabilizer's taking too much time.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Absolutely.
And right, absolutely.
And so the transformer trying toget them to see, okay, in order
for you to do this, what if youdid it on your own?
Well, you're gonna have to getmoney.
So we, yeah, I got a friend.
I got a friend.
He'll give me the money.
And I go, well, what if you hadto go to the bank and get money?
He goes, Man, I got to do awhole plan.
(11:05):
I go, yeah, that's the otherside of your brain.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
So in that dynamic energy, the next person in this
stir is the initiator, which itis kind of the comparable
dynamic energy.
Yeah.
One's more of a feminineexpression, one's more of a
masculine expression.
It's bad way of an initiatordoesn't see much of the need for
the relational context.
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
No, that's that's the cool part.
Because the the transformer Imean for them, yes.
Well, for the organization, ifthey want to, if they want it to
work, the transformer will haveto step back and then it will
almost always get implemented bytheir initiator in a way the
transformer doesn't agree with.
And that's why someone who hasthe skill set of both of those,
(11:50):
yeah, they take over the world.
Because they they come up withthe idea and they implement it.
Or they or they hire the rightpeople to implement it the way
they want it.
And they're control freaks, butthey also hire the right people
to do it that way.
But yeah, that's the hard partbecause the transformer has the
ideas, so they want ownership ofit.
So they need to get their IDcopyrighted.
(12:10):
Well, why would I do that?
Well, that's that's thestabilizer.
So, you know.
Yeah, that's why it's sofascinating.
They just work together.
And yeah, we don't want to, Ithink I I I don't want to paint
a false sense that it's easy todo all this, and all of a sudden
we all are little automons wherewe walk around and we don't need
anybody else in our lives, butit just relieves so much tension
(12:32):
oftentimes in theirrelationships when we realize
that we can access that when weneed to for ourselves at times.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
I think the great advantage of becoming self-aware
enough that you know thosedifferent parts of yourself is
that you then begin to valuethem in others.
I think that changes it, but itis that thing that outward
change is not going to happenuntil there's inward change.
Right.
If I begin to appreciate andvalue those different parts that
(13:00):
exist in me and what they bring,then I value so much more
someone who's different than me,but is better at that thing that
they do than I am.
And I and I invite that voice tothe table.
I also know when to setboundaries on that voice and
create a system that's balancedand healthy, and uh not giving
(13:25):
one more voice when it'sinappropriate so that so that
boundaries come after, notdefense mechanisms before.
Yep.
And that feels like a muchhealthier approach.
Okay, so we've got the initiatorthat's taking action and it's
it's forward movement constant,right?
(13:47):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's kind of the drivingforce.
They are the driving force.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, and they'll come back to the idea person in
the transformer and say, okay,what else you got?
And then transformer goes, oh,okay.
I'm not right, I've got nothingright now.
Come on, we're in the middle ofthis thing.
What else?
How are we gonna how are wegonna do this?
I don't I don't know that yet.
Oh, well, let's figure it out.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
It is interesting when transformers are giving
given more rain, given moreopportunities, they sometimes
balance out.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
Absolutely, because they go, I really haven't
thought that through yet.
Let me uh yeah, let me let methink about that.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
And then what what happens tohappen what has to happen is
naturally going into the to theR of the stir, which is the
responder.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They need to sit with it andkind of nurture themselves and
give them space to actually comeup with the solution to a
(14:40):
problem the initiator may mayhave the transformer to solve.
Transformer needs to be able tohave the confidence to sit
quietly and go, you know what?
I need to take a few days andjust relax and think about some
things and then take care ofthemselves, which is what days
off are about, which are in mymind.
This week I took Thursday off,so I didn't work yesterday.
(15:00):
And I could just tell therethere was such a refreshing
because I just I came over to myproperty and I just did what I
wanted to do, hung out, gotfrustrated with the equipment,
but other than that, and thosedays are so important.
And I think we underestimatethey represent really the
responder.
They're caretaking, they theynurture, they they accept
things, they protect, they doall kinds of really good things.
(15:24):
They anticipate needs, you know,all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
It's interesting to me that transformers, often the
creatives among us, have whatthey will refer to as dry
spells, where they nothing seemsto be coming a wonderful writer,
just as writer's block.
And for what I'm hearing you sayis if they can pay attention to
(15:48):
the responder side of themselvesand do some self-cares And not
feel guilty about it and allthat stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
And so getting to that responder side, if that is
your dominance style, and youfind great joy and purpose and
meaning in the care giving orthe nurturing, taking care of
details, uh what are thosethings that often bring that
(16:17):
person in when life has becomeunsatisfying or a sense of or
lack of purpose?
What brings those individuals into try and work on some things?
SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Uh one simple thing, they're exhausted.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
They're exhausted and they're frustrated and
they're probably a littledepressed.
Again, typically it's for justthe normal outpatient practice.
A woman in their mid to late40s, early 50s, who are
exhausted, tired, depressed.
No one's listening to them, noone's caring about them.
They've given and given becausethe secret part of all this, if
(16:59):
I give my natural energy, I'mlooking for something back.
And for a responder toacknowledge that they're looking
for the responder, they'relooking for the nurturing back
is hard for them.
Because they would say, no, Iwas there to meet needs.
But they also uh projected theirown need in that sense.
So then therapy for them reallyis listening to them.
(17:20):
And for a l for quite a whilebefore you really start pushing
back at all, because they justneed someone to listen and to
validate their experience andsay, you gave a lot.
I had a lady this week who Ijust simply said, man, it's
amazing how you pull off whatyou do or what you have done.
And she goes, I know it was, butI'm just exhausted.
Of course you are.
(17:40):
Because what did what did youget back?
Well, my kids are okay, I guess.
I said, okay, but do theyappreciate?
Well, maybe occasionally theydo.
I said, but do the the way youwould appreciate it if someone
had done that for you?
No, not at all.
So yeah, it's almost alwaysexhaustion.
SPEAKER_02 (17:57):
I had a couple working with them, and uh the
story is not dependent reallyupon what quadrant they
naturally fall in, but it wasthis moment where I asked them
to simply say what they wantedtheir partner to know about
(18:18):
themselves.
And active listening, thepartner simply said what they
heard.
And we'd back and forth a fewtimes on this to get past that
first layer.
And what's another thing youwant your partner to know about
you?
And I framed it as when you'rein a relationship, one of the
things you bring to each otheris that you are a witness to
(18:41):
their life, which is very much aresponder posture.
But to do that for one anotherand to give them a, particularly
for those that are stabilizers,a framework.
Well, I guess for anyone elsewho's not a nurturer, a way by
which to do that, uh an exercisethat gives them a structure.
(19:02):
And they the engagement, asoften happens, goes well beyond
just a little exercise as theyactually feel heard, and that
nurturing gives them strength tostep into other parts of the
relationship that might beconflictual just because they've
been heard.
And I I love what you brought upthat the responder sometimes
(19:24):
what they need more thananything else is just somebody
who will give witness to theirlife.
There's validation.
unknown (19:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Because again, they they the downside is they
overfunction so much that theyspoil everybody.
Well, when you spoil everybody,they just expect more.
And that's why they that's whythey become so exhausted.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Other members of a family will often say, Well, I
didn't know you needed that.
You never come across like youneed anything.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
The really interesting part is if you know
that and you try to push back ata responder, they get
frustrated.
Well, I can do I can take careof that.
Because their their identity isso tied up in meeting those
needs that if you try to pushback and say, you know, I'll
take care of that.
Well, why would you dothat? 'Cause because I want I
want to, that would be good.
Or whatever.
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
(20:14):
And even if even if you do itonce they're exhausted, they'll
still feel guilty about it,which is what I call false
guilt.
Because they think they shouldstill be functioning at that
same level.
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Yeah.
It is also interesting to tryand get the at the roots of that
false guilt, because often ithas some past back to our
opening episodes of looking backto move forward.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Looking back to move forward, yep.
It's so true.
Yeah, I mean, that's why I say,even though it may sound corny,
stir it up, baby, stir it up.
You know?
Because when you start gettingin touch with all the aspects,
it stirs up a lot of interestingthoughts and conflicts because
you realize, oh, I g I g I gottatake responsibility for my life.
Oh yeah, that's that's really atthe heart of it all.
(21:00):
And I know life experiencesaffects that, and even my
formation of it and yourembracing of it is born out of
my own my own journey of havingto take care of lots of things
on your own.
SPEAKER_02 (21:12):
So yeah.
Um and I would say, from myexperience, that this model does
different things for us atdifferent stages in our life.
Like we might learn some thingsthat help us early on in a
relationship and give us sometools, and then we'll come back
(21:32):
15 years later and go, oh, Ineed to revisit how over these
last several years I havedeveloped this side of me and
have not been paying enoughattention as evidenced by the
conflicts that I repeat in mylife in this way.
And when you come to laterstages in your life, it midlife
(21:53):
issues change how you view theworld and give you new
opportunities to explore andgrow.
(22:17):
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
(22:39):
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
My name is D.
Kelly, and my co-host Jim Shaleyis here with me.
And we're coming toward the endof this particular season, this
series on personality styles,looking at a model by which we
can understand ourselves andunderstand others and the
relationships that we're in.
(00:33):
And it is a theory that is bornout of Jungian psychology.
And it allows us to look at themasculine and feminine energies
within all of us, the dynamicand static movement within all
of us.
And we've been working on thatfor about 12 episodes, and we're
going to try and pull some ofthese things together this
(00:54):
episode.
And so we want to do a bit of areview, a little bit of reminder
of the places where we've comefrom and how this might help us
as we look toward the future.
And this time I'm going to stopwith each descriptor in the word
stir and ask you to think inyour mind of a client that came
(01:16):
to you that fit that particularcategory.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay, sure.
Put me on spot here.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
No, and I don't want you to name specifics.
I just want you to say what'sthe kind of thing that brought
them in and made them think, Ineed help.
What kind of conflict might thisperson experience or what might
they see?
So STERB begins with S, thestabilizer, which is a masculine
(01:42):
static energy.
And the characteristics are thatthey are organizers, they put
systems in place, they careabout justice as it is equal to
all.
Any other characteristics thatyou want to generally add
concerning the stabilizer?
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Aaron Ross Powell They want peace, they are
perfectionistic, they're kind ofinflexible, they set limits or
boundaries, they fit into groupexpectations, they're pretty
disciplined.
So there's a lot of a lot ofrigidity to it in that sense.
(02:19):
Yes.
And so unfortunately, whatbrings them into therapy
typically is someone who'screated chaos.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Aaron Powell Great point.
It's creating the thing they'reuncomfortable with.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Absolutely true.
So they'll come in and out andthey can't control things.
They have a teenager who's, youknow, getting high all the time,
things that they cannot control.
And so that brings them intotherapy.
And that's a tough one becauseit makes sense in their minds.
You got to help me bring m makemy kid behave.
Or I have a lady right now whohe's got a 16-year-old kid who's
(02:51):
who's going to be in probablyincredibly successful in making
money in lots of different ways.
Let's just say.
Yeah.
And she's like, he just he'sout, he's on Facebook
marketplace buying and sellingand stuff.
I don't even know.
He's and so she's a very strongstabilizer.
And so she obviously has causedher stress.
(03:11):
And so I'm supposed to help herbring control to him, which
obviously I can only help bringcontrol to her.
So in that sense, you reallyhave to reframe how she's using
her natural energy internally.
And so you don't necessarilypush him to other quadrants.
You just get them to handlethings they can they can handle,
(03:34):
which is how do you bringstability to yourself?
How do you use your naturalstrength to set boundaries with
you?
Well, it's setting boundarieswith her kid, uh, the limits,
all those things that makesense.
Now, in order to help them dothat, then you move them to the,
what I would say more likely thefeminine responder.
(03:56):
So they have to give themselveslots of grace, lots of space,
and really benefit the value ofthe stabilizer and not be so
frustrated, but realize it it'sreally trying to help, but right
now you can only help yourself.
So that would be an example ofthe stabilizer.
That is a great example.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
I think for the stabilizer, we've used this
phrase many, many times inprevious episodes, but I think
the stabilizer is one of theindividuals who is most subject
to feeling like how can youargue against the rightness of
being organized and in order?
(04:35):
And so that phrase, do you wantto be right or be in
relationship, hits home for thestabilizer in both painful and
important ways.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's move on to the next oneof Stir.
It is the Transformer, which isthis feminine dynamic energy, an
expression that is incrediblyintuitive, sometimes almost
(05:00):
prophetic voice, the poet, theartist.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
At least they think they think they are.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
They're usually drinking or getting high at the
time, but you know, that's adifferent conversation.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
That's at the extreme.
And and often I would, in givingkind of an excuse for that uh
addictive response, is that theworld often doesn't know what to
do with the transformer, and sothey don't know where they fit.
And it is this feeling not apart of the larger system that
(05:34):
sometimes leads to those things.
So how about this individual,what leads them to come in to
see you or face the problem thatit that they don't understand
themselves well enough orsomething?
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
Well, the uh to be really honest about it, they're
typically in relationship withthe stabilizer.
So they'll almost always come inwith the stabilizer part of
themselves that's bread that'sdragging them into therapy a
little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
Aaron Ross Powell So they've externalized that part
of them, the stabilizer.
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Or that's addictions therapy.
They'll go to an addictionstherapist because they've
they've gotten too excessive insome of their habits.
I have a young guy right nowwho's who cannot get off of
nicotine.
He's been smoking cigarettessince he was 13.
He shifted a while back tovaping, but still with nicotine.
(06:29):
And yeah, he's he's anincredible transformer.
I mean, he he's an incrediblebird hunter.
He travels the world searchingbirds and stuff.
But he's but he came in thisweek and he was just saying, I
gotta, I, I, I gotta quit thisvaping.
It's it's crazy.
I cannot I cannot go uh in themiddle of the night I'm picking
it up and and getting a hit ofnicotine.
So that's that's the extreme.
(06:50):
They they come in sometimes forthat, but usually it's with a in
a relationship where they'vebeen too excessive.
Or they don't set boundaries orthey don't keep a job.
Again, that's the negative sideof it.
The positive side of it, they'revery inspirational.
They're creative, they uh theyreally do transform things
because they see the worlddifferently than other people.
(07:13):
So in that sense, they could getcarried away with their ideas
and not make a living.
So they would come in and theywould be incredibly energetic,
fun to talk to, good sense ofhumor.
But then you ask them, well, sowhat's what's bringing you in?
Well, I can't seem to keep ajob.
My my husband or my wifebasically says I I'm way too
(07:35):
much fun, I'm too spontaneous, Idon't I don't sit still.
Sometimes the diagnosis ADHDkicks in, all that stuff.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
Yeah, I I think that it's probably dangerous for
those of us who aren'ttransformers to underestimate
the attractiveness of certainaspects of the transformer.
They have can have a a charismaabout them.
Oh, geez, absolutely.
(08:05):
And the way in which they seethe world is often surprising,
or or that they say what youthought, but you didn't think
you could say, and they say itanyway, because they say what
comes to their mind very often.
And that freedom that they seem.
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
The social social media is filled with that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Yeah.
I think that's right.
Um, and I think that the freedomthey seem to express can be kind
of envied by others, but alsothe freedom that they express
kind of covers sometimes afeeling of lack of freedom.
Like they are restricted in manyways.
They have parents who pressedthem or pushed them down.
(08:51):
They had employers that keptputting boundaries on them.
They uh and there is thisstrange thing about freedom of
expression, but feeling likethey are butting up against a
wall over and over again.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
Yeah, the interesting thing about them is
that when you get one engaged intherapy, the good side of their
style is they're really open tonew new ways of looking at
things.
Now, they may have a hard timeimplementing them, because
again, they're such they're suchgood with ideas, because they'll
get excited, they'll have anepiphany every other session.
But again, implementing it,which is the stabilizer part,
(09:27):
which is typically they're inrelationship with.
And I will tell couples all thetime that have that dynamic, you
have a really good workingrelationship, but right now you
do not value each other.
You're trying to defeat eachother rather than working
cooperatively, because astabilizer would say, No, we
can't possibly do that.
Oh my word, you're way out,you're way out of, you're out of
your mind.
And the stabilizer then feelswhat?
(09:48):
Shut down.
So then they they feeldiscouraged and they pull back.
That's why so many of theconversations I've had, and
again, it's sometimes flipping,but typically it's the the the
male who is incredibly uhidea-driven, sees the
possibilities, and wants to gofor it.
(10:09):
And I will say, he's a dreamer.
That's what he does.
Well, what does a stabilizerkick into when someone dreams?
They kick into, well, let's makeit happen.
How are we going to make ithappen?
Well, then typically the thetransformer doesn't have the
skill set to go to a bank and doa business plan to start a
business, and then thestabilizer will come along and
(10:32):
want to do that, and then it'llfrustrate the transformer
because the the stabilizer istaking control of it.
So you can see where that goes.
And that that's just, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:41):
And the stabilizer's taking too much time.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Absolutely.
And right, absolutely.
And so the transformer trying toget them to see, okay, in order
for you to do this, what if youdid it on your own?
Well, you're gonna have to getmoney.
So we, yeah, I got a friend.
I got a friend.
He'll give me the money.
And I go, well, what if you hadto go to the bank and get money?
He goes, Man, I got to do awhole plan.
(11:05):
I go, yeah, that's the otherside of your brain.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
So in that dynamic energy, the next person in this
stir is the initiator, which itis kind of the comparable
dynamic energy.
Yeah.
One's more of a feminineexpression, one's more of a
masculine expression.
It's bad way of an initiatordoesn't see much of the need for
the relational context.
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
No, that's that's the cool part.
Because the the transformer Imean for them, yes.
Well, for the organization, ifthey want to, if they want it to
work, the transformer will haveto step back and then it will
almost always get implemented bytheir initiator in a way the
transformer doesn't agree with.
And that's why someone who hasthe skill set of both of those,
(11:50):
yeah, they take over the world.
Because they they come up withthe idea and they implement it.
Or they or they hire the rightpeople to implement it the way
they want it.
And they're control freaks, butthey also hire the right people
to do it that way.
But yeah, that's the hard partbecause the transformer has the
ideas, so they want ownership ofit.
So they need to get their IDcopyrighted.
(12:10):
Well, why would I do that?
Well, that's that's thestabilizer.
So, you know.
Yeah, that's why it's sofascinating.
They just work together.
And yeah, we don't want to, Ithink I I I don't want to paint
a false sense that it's easy todo all this, and all of a sudden
we all are little automons wherewe walk around and we don't need
anybody else in our lives, butit just relieves so much tension
(12:32):
oftentimes in theirrelationships when we realize
that we can access that when weneed to for ourselves at times.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
I think the great advantage of becoming self-aware
enough that you know thosedifferent parts of yourself is
that you then begin to valuethem in others.
I think that changes it, but itis that thing that outward
change is not going to happenuntil there's inward change.
Right.
If I begin to appreciate andvalue those different parts that
(13:00):
exist in me and what they bring,then I value so much more
someone who's different than me,but is better at that thing that
they do than I am.
And I and I invite that voice tothe table.
I also know when to setboundaries on that voice and
create a system that's balancedand healthy, and uh not giving
(13:25):
one more voice when it'sinappropriate so that so that
boundaries come after, notdefense mechanisms before.
Yep.
And that feels like a muchhealthier approach.
Okay, so we've got the initiatorthat's taking action and it's
it's forward movement constant,right?
(13:47):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's kind of the drivingforce.
They are the driving force.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, and they'll come back to the idea person in
the transformer and say, okay,what else you got?
And then transformer goes, oh,okay.
I'm not right, I've got nothingright now.
Come on, we're in the middle ofthis thing.
What else?
How are we gonna how are wegonna do this?
I don't I don't know that yet.
Oh, well, let's figure it out.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
It is interesting when transformers are giving
given more rain, given moreopportunities, they sometimes
balance out.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
Absolutely, because they go, I really haven't
thought that through yet.
Let me uh yeah, let me let methink about that.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
And then what what happens tohappen what has to happen is
naturally going into the to theR of the stir, which is the
responder.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They need to sit with it andkind of nurture themselves and
give them space to actually comeup with the solution to a
(14:40):
problem the initiator may mayhave the transformer to solve.
Transformer needs to be able tohave the confidence to sit
quietly and go, you know what?
I need to take a few days andjust relax and think about some
things and then take care ofthemselves, which is what days
off are about, which are in mymind.
This week I took Thursday off,so I didn't work yesterday.
(15:00):
And I could just tell therethere was such a refreshing
because I just I came over to myproperty and I just did what I
wanted to do, hung out, gotfrustrated with the equipment,
but other than that, and thosedays are so important.
And I think we underestimatethey represent really the
responder.
They're caretaking, they theynurture, they they accept
things, they protect, they doall kinds of really good things.
(15:24):
They anticipate needs, you know,all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
It's interesting to me that transformers, often the
creatives among us, have whatthey will refer to as dry
spells, where they nothing seemsto be coming a wonderful writer,
just as writer's block.
And for what I'm hearing you sayis if they can pay attention to
(15:48):
the responder side of themselvesand do some self-cares And not
feel guilty about it and allthat stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
And so getting to that responder side, if that is
your dominance style, and youfind great joy and purpose and
meaning in the care giving orthe nurturing, taking care of
details, uh what are thosethings that often bring that
(16:17):
person in when life has becomeunsatisfying or a sense of or
lack of purpose?
What brings those individuals into try and work on some things?
SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Uh one simple thing, they're exhausted.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
They're exhausted and they're frustrated and
they're probably a littledepressed.
Again, typically it's for justthe normal outpatient practice.
A woman in their mid to late40s, early 50s, who are
exhausted, tired, depressed.
No one's listening to them, noone's caring about them.
They've given and given becausethe secret part of all this, if
(16:59):
I give my natural energy, I'mlooking for something back.
And for a responder toacknowledge that they're looking
for the responder, they'relooking for the nurturing back
is hard for them.
Because they would say, no, Iwas there to meet needs.
But they also uh projected theirown need in that sense.
So then therapy for them reallyis listening to them.
(17:20):
And for a l for quite a whilebefore you really start pushing
back at all, because they justneed someone to listen and to
validate their experience andsay, you gave a lot.
I had a lady this week who Ijust simply said, man, it's
amazing how you pull off whatyou do or what you have done.
And she goes, I know it was, butI'm just exhausted.
Of course you are.
(17:40):
Because what did what did youget back?
Well, my kids are okay, I guess.
I said, okay, but do theyappreciate?
Well, maybe occasionally theydo.
I said, but do the the way youwould appreciate it if someone
had done that for you?
No, not at all.
So yeah, it's almost alwaysexhaustion.
SPEAKER_02 (17:57):
I had a couple working with them, and uh the
story is not dependent reallyupon what quadrant they
naturally fall in, but it wasthis moment where I asked them
to simply say what they wantedtheir partner to know about
(18:18):
themselves.
And active listening, thepartner simply said what they
heard.
And we'd back and forth a fewtimes on this to get past that
first layer.
And what's another thing youwant your partner to know about
you?
And I framed it as when you'rein a relationship, one of the
things you bring to each otheris that you are a witness to
(18:41):
their life, which is very much aresponder posture.
But to do that for one anotherand to give them a, particularly
for those that are stabilizers,a framework.
Well, I guess for anyone elsewho's not a nurturer, a way by
which to do that, uh an exercisethat gives them a structure.
(19:02):
And they the engagement, asoften happens, goes well beyond
just a little exercise as theyactually feel heard, and that
nurturing gives them strength tostep into other parts of the
relationship that might beconflictual just because they've
been heard.
And I I love what you brought upthat the responder sometimes
(19:24):
what they need more thananything else is just somebody
who will give witness to theirlife.
There's validation.
unknown (19:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Because again, they they the downside is they
overfunction so much that theyspoil everybody.
Well, when you spoil everybody,they just expect more.
And that's why they that's whythey become so exhausted.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Other members of a family will often say, Well, I
didn't know you needed that.
You never come across like youneed anything.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
The really interesting part is if you know
that and you try to push back ata responder, they get
frustrated.
Well, I can do I can take careof that.
Because their their identity isso tied up in meeting those
needs that if you try to pushback and say, you know, I'll
take care of that.
Well, why would you dothat? 'Cause because I want I
want to, that would be good.
Or whatever.
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
(20:14):
And even if even if you do itonce they're exhausted, they'll
still feel guilty about it,which is what I call false
guilt.
Because they think they shouldstill be functioning at that
same level.
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Yeah.
It is also interesting to tryand get the at the roots of that
false guilt, because often ithas some past back to our
opening episodes of looking backto move forward.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Looking back to move forward, yep.
It's so true.
Yeah, I mean, that's why I say,even though it may sound corny,
stir it up, baby, stir it up.
You know?
Because when you start gettingin touch with all the aspects,
it stirs up a lot of interestingthoughts and conflicts because
you realize, oh, I g I g I gottatake responsibility for my life.
Oh yeah, that's that's really atthe heart of it all.
(21:00):
And I know life experiencesaffects that, and even my
formation of it and yourembracing of it is born out of
my own my own journey of havingto take care of lots of things
on your own.
SPEAKER_02 (21:12):
So yeah.
Um and I would say, from myexperience, that this model does
different things for us atdifferent stages in our life.
Like we might learn some thingsthat help us early on in a
relationship and give us sometools, and then we'll come back
(21:32):
15 years later and go, oh, Ineed to revisit how over these
last several years I havedeveloped this side of me and
have not been paying enoughattention as evidenced by the
conflicts that I repeat in mylife in this way.
And when you come to laterstages in your life, it midlife
(21:53):
issues change how you view theworld and give you new
opportunities to explore andgrow.
(22:17):
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
(22:39):
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
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