January 14, 2026 • 37 mins
We open our archive of listener questions to explore how to give honest feedback without a therapy license, how to manage triggers with self-awareness, and how parents can raise more integrated, emotionally grounded kids. We use simple tools like permission, curiosity, and active listening, then wrestle with school competition, adolescent individuation, and the culture’s uneasy relationship with accountability.
• asking permission before offering feedback
• using curiosity to reduce defensiveness
• tracking triggers and projection in conflict
• I-statements that name impact, not blame
• a two-part active listening exercise
• early personality formation and integration
• parenting with all four STIR quadrants
• adolescents pushing for individuation
• school competition vs nurtured strengths
• truth-telling, accountability, and growth
If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I am one of your co-hosts, D.
Kelly.
And I want to let you know thatas we move into the next couple
of episodes, we are tacklingsome of the questions that have
been submitted by our listeners.
And you're welcome to submit aquestion as well by going to
either one of our websites andsubmitting a question that you
(00:20):
have about the things that we'vebeen talking about.
As well, we thought that thisparticular episode, we might
pull back the curtain a littlebit on the production of this
particular podcast.
We often press the record buttonbefore we actually start.
And this time we picked up someof the conversation that was
outlining where we were goingtoday.
(00:42):
And we thought you might want tolisten in to some of that
background.
It's about the first fourminutes of this episode, so feel
free to skip ahead if you don'twant to listen to that stuff.
But welcome.
We're glad you're here.
Okay, this is probably a goodone to start on.
These two.
I'll do these two.
And I've got four more.
So maybe we'll just get started.
(01:03):
But here's one that I'llprobably start on.
You made a comment that by agefive, our personality is
solidifying in a particulardirection, approximately by age
five.
So we can have these intelligentconversations with most
five-year-olds.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Ah Yep.
That's why that one book.
Does anybody ever get out ofkindergarten or whatever it was?
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Yeah, you really don't read books because that's
an ethical title.
Stuff like that though.
Yeah, it's close.
It's close.
Everything I have learned, Ilearned in kindergarten.
There you go.
My goodness.
(01:48):
But you haven't read it, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
No, you don't read it.
SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
So the question was if I'm the parent of this four,
five, six, seven-year-old, whatare some of the ways by which in
parenting I encourageintegration?
Individuation comes later, butthis is more of an encouragement
of integration.
And then the follow-up questionwas, it seems like schools, at
(02:16):
least at some level, rewardcompetition, grade systems or
extracurricular activities thatrequire sports teams or music
where you get first chair orsecond chair or whatever, which
seems to lean toward the dynamicside of things, the initiator,
(02:39):
maybe the transformer, but morethe initiator.
What do you do as a parent totry and balance that in terms of
better integration of life'sjourney?
That was a great one.
And then another question, Ithink, is a great one that said,
now, Jim, who's a therapist, isby nature given the task to call
(03:01):
out stuff and people.
They come to you because that'swhat you do.
Well, if you're not a therapistand you're in a relationship
with people, how do you approachsomebody that has inflexible
thinking if you think it's animportant thing to do, but
you're not a therapist, soyou're not given the task to do
(03:22):
that for somebody.
So I love that one.
So anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
That is a good question.
SPEAKER_04 (03:26):
Yeah.
So here's what I think we'll do.
Let's start with that question,because it's a great lead-in.
Jim is the therapist.
And then we're probably going togo to a parenting question, the
one I just mentioned.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Okay.
You ready?
Sure.
You just wanted to talk aboutyour dream, so maybe that's what
we got in couple.
SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
If I can remember it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:54):
Oh my goodness.
See, I don't think season two isgonna work because you don't put
into practice anything that Isay about how I remember them or
you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
So no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna be better.
I should have.
I woke up and I thought, that'sa good dream.
I probably should remember that.
And then I didn't.
Yeah, I think we're gonna gostraight to season three.
SPEAKER_04 (04:23):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
It is great to have you here.
I'm your co-host, D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shaley.
And we are exploring the innerlandscape of personality and
digging a little bit deeper intowhy we do some of the things
that we do and how we couldbetter integrate our life by
having uh uh increasedself-awareness.
So, Jim, great to be with you.
(04:44):
Great to be with you, Dee.
Thanks.
I'm gonna start off with aquestion.
We've had several questions thathave come in from listeners.
Thought it might be good toaddress a few of those.
And one mentioned you by name.
The question went something likethat.
Oh, excellent.
Okay.
That's right.
So they are at least rememberingthat.
Yeah, that's and rememberingthat you are the authority in
(05:06):
this podcast.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
That's that's a scary place tobe.
Here's what here's what wasasked referencing you.
Now, Jim is a therapist, and bynature, a therapist is tasked
with the responsibility to callout stuff in people.
And that's what somebody comesto you and they're expecting you
to name something in their life.
(05:27):
So they come with a certainlevel of expectation.
This person was asking if you'renot a therapist and you're in a
relationship or a friendship ormaybe a vocational setting, and
you feel like it's important tocall out inflexible thinking in
somebody or something along theline of what we've been talking
(05:50):
about in numerous episodes, butyou've not been given permission
to do that necessarily.
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
Well, uh it would be an interesting question to ask
the the listener is that havethey asked for the permission to
do that?
SPEAKER_04 (06:03):
So that's a great point.
And maybe that's step numberone.
How do we go about in arelationship even bringing that
topic up?
When you're when you're workingwith couples, let's say, how do
you begin to develop a patternwithin them where it's okay to
have those conversations ifthat's not been a pattern of
their journey?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
I mean, that for therapy to be effective.
I mean, now there is someexpectation in what you said,
expectation of of accountabilitywhen it comes to therapy, but
it's may not be at the forefrontof a lot of clients.
It's like as you developrapport, you develop you have a
sense of what you can push backon and what you can't.
(06:45):
So the rapport building aspectis essential.
Now, there is an expectationthat you're going to have
something constructive to say orfeedback that you're going to
give them about how they'rebeing experienced.
And personal lives, yeah, that'salways a delicate part.
It's like, okay, is yourfriendship strong enough and
(07:06):
have you agreed that we can givepushback as to how you're
experiencing each other?
In family dynamics, if there'sone dominating personality and
you want to challenge that styleof personality, it's almost like
you have to be okay if it goesoff the rails, or if it doesn't,
(07:27):
if you have the commitment to dothat.
But it comes down to therelationship in large part.
It's like, do I want to trustthe relationship enough to do
that?
Or am I modeling that fromothers?
Like, can am I, do I allowpeople to challenge me?
So there's a lot of back andforth in that in that sense.
But yeah, especially we justcome through the holiday times
(07:48):
and a lot of families willexperience personality types
that they may struggle with.
And then do you know mess up allthe holidays by trying to
challenge someone's style?
Yeah, that's a that's a reallydelicate place to go.
I would start to reiterate whatI said, I would start initially
by trying to clarify theboundaries of any relationship
(08:09):
and say, is that is that a partof what we want to do?
A lot of times we'll tease andwe'll use humor and family
dynamics to kind of point outthings, but oftentimes we don't
take that to a more seriouslevel to really investigate how
you're experiencing each other.
That can be very useful, but itcan also also be very delicate
as far as how individualsrespond to that.
SPEAKER_04 (08:33):
Yeah.
Teasing can be a defensemechanism.
Like I don't know how to reallysay this, so I'm defensive.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
Absolutely.
Sarcasm, anything like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:41):
I'm guessing you probably do this, but if not,
tell me what you do instead.
When I'm working with clients, Ican't think of a time where I
haven't done this, that in theopening session with them,
there's a clarifying ofobjectives, like what is it you
want to accomplish?
Why are you here?
Fill me in on what you'd like tosee as uh a result of our time
(09:05):
together.
And in doing that, when I hearthe objectives that they have, I
usually have a response thatsays, now in order to do that,
I'm gonna have to ask somequestions.
We're gonna go down somepathways.
And it begins to kind of pavethe way for those kinds of
conversations.
And I I wonder, I don't wonder.
(09:28):
I I believe that relationshipsthat we have, sometimes the way
by which you bridge theprivilege of speaking into
conversations is to ask somequestions about what are we
trying to accomplish in thisrelationship, or where are we
going with this?
And how could we go about havingconversations of things that
(09:50):
might keep us from gettingthere?
And I think that's true in workrelationships, certainly in
marriage relationships.
And when you chart a course,part of charting the course is,
well, there are only a certainnumber of pathways that get us
there.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah.
I think if more families orfamily dynamics are friends or
whatever had a component to it,what you're describing, I think,
is basically I'm curious enoughto want to know how you think
the way you think.
So then I spend time askingquestions in the interaction as
opposed to imposing my thoughtsor feelings about how I'm
(10:28):
experiencing you.
It really shifts from the oldadage, do you speak to to
understand or to be understood?
If we take that approach tofamily dynamics and say, that's
interesting that you think that.
Tell me more about that.
Now, does that sound like atherapist on some level?
Yes.
But it can also be a way, itcould be a way to answer the
(10:49):
first person's question, whichis basically, how do you go
about speaking into someone'slife?
Well, the best way to do it isask questions.
And then really watch howdefensive you become or how
passionate you become inresponse, because that will tell
you more about yourself.
SPEAKER_04 (11:06):
Yeah, that's a great point.
You've talked in a previousepisode about being comfortable
with another person not thinkingthe way you think.
And that one of the kind ofapproaches that you take
sometimes is to just speak theother side of the equation,
whether you believe it or not,try to try and expand somebody's
(11:27):
inflexible thinking, which is agreat approach.
It's a very therapeuticapproach.
Do you think that that works inrelationships?
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yeah, it works if you want to argue.
If you don't really want thatrelationship, exactly.
You want to move on to anotherfriend, absolutely use that
style.
Yeah.
No, it's like it's like uh youhave to be careful that you're
not just being oppositional foroppositional sake.
(12:00):
But to try to be moreappropriate, you would say, have
you thought about it this way?
If you want to do that.
But that's what's happening inthe last five years.
It's like people just startarguing and they get passionate
about their views as opposed toreally listening to each other.
Now, again, I I'm trying toclarify what the question really
is trying to get at.
(12:21):
It may really be if youexperience someone that has a
very challenging personalitythat you find abrasive.
It goes back to another one ofour conversations.
Is there something in you that'sgetting triggered because you
have the same trait?
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Are are denying it.
So you have to clarify that partof it.
On the other hand, if it's justsomeone who's just abrasive or
(12:42):
he's control they'recontrolling, or they just need
to their way, it's like, yeah,it could be to the point it's so
toxic that they aren't open tothat kind of feedback.
And so then you have to decidewhat you want to do with that
relationship.
SPEAKER_04 (12:54):
Yeah, I I don't want to miss here.
I think there you justidentified two very distinct,
but both very important,components to this.
The first is that notion of if Ikeep getting triggered, what are
what is it that keeps triggeringme?
And the corollary to that is ifI keep attracting certain types
(13:17):
of people into my life that leadto that triggering, what is what
is it that I'm not aware ofwithin that keeps drawing the
universe keeps drawing thosekinds of people to me that needs
to be brought intoconsciousness?
So that's like part one.
That's a big part.
Yeah.
That's a big part.
So then the second part is asawareness levels increase and
(13:40):
you're seeing what triggers you,but you also feel like that the
person that you are in whateverrelationship is, has a side to
them that makes relationshipdifficult, finding the way that
is both self-aware and notcondemning to enter into the
conversation of why somethingfeels abrasive or why something
(14:05):
feels incongruent, or theability to bring it up with
another person to have aconversation that doesn't raise
everybody's defenses all atonce.
And that that's a real delicatedance.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
It is very delicate.
And the cla the classic way thatthe therapy would a therapist
would talk about it, or atherapy guy or person or
whatever, they would saybasically I statements as
opposed to you statements.
So, you know, you you're justobnoxious is one way of doing
it.
SPEAKER_04 (14:37):
And that would be a you statement.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
That's the first word you.
Yes, it would be a youstatement.
As opposed to I experiencing youas being obnoxious.
SPEAKER_02 (14:50):
No, no, no, no.
That is not an statement.
That's that's another youstatement.
SPEAKER_00 (14:58):
Uh yeah, so basically, again, it's like you
I know people are gonna that arelistening and are gonna think,
well, you're a therapist and andyou think that way.
But on the on the other hand,it's like, do I really want the
relationship?
So if I do, I would say, can Ishare with you how I experience
you?
If you really want to challengethe relationship and really want
(15:21):
to see if you can have aconversation with that person,
that's probably the best way todo it.
Now, that that sounds, you know,therapized and all the other
stuff, but at least it could llet you know where the other
person's coming from.
SPEAKER_04 (15:34):
I just need to write down in words I want to use in
the future that I've never usedbefore, therapized.
Absolutely.
I like that one.
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
I've I've been therapy.
Well, a lot of a lot of spouseswould say, I've been therap, my
my my wife or my husband'stherapizing me.
Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_04 (15:53):
Yeah.
Um, okay, before we leave this,I I want to just help a little
bit more with the framing ofthat in a setting where it's not
already inflamed with energy ofconflict or problems when there
seems to be a moment whereconversation is amenable to both
(16:15):
parties.
A question along the line of,would it be okay if I tell you
how I experience you?
unknown (16:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (16:23):
That's uh that'd be great.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
I also sometimes demands the person is asking
that question, they have to bepretty grounded and and aware of
their own triggers.
Because that's that's a kind ofI'm I'm watching myself function
on some level.
I'm not as engaged.
I'm really trying to have aconversation that's that's most
(16:46):
people don't have.
I mean, to be honest, I don'tthink they do.
Yeah.
I think that's that's the ideaof the podcast, is trying to
push people to a place of moregroundedness so they don't get
triggered as often.
SPEAKER_04 (16:59):
And and you probably will run into problems if then
the next question you ask is Iexperience you as a jerk.
It it has to be couched in interms that they can hear.
SPEAKER_01 (17:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (17:13):
And often with an example.
So when you respond to me inthis particular way, my defenses
go up because it feels like veryinflexible thinking.
So it acknowledges what happensinside of me.
It doesn't say that it isinflexible thinking.
It's just that's how Iexperience it in those moments,
which allows the other person alittle more leeway to not feel
(17:35):
attacked.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Well, yeah.
And the other thing that thatthat does, it begins to model
the interaction you want bysimply saying, I'm getting
defensive.
I find myself getting defensive.
And that that can actually be away for the other person to kind
of match you if if they want to,as far as more self-awareness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's it'sfascinating.
(17:56):
I mean, I I try to work hard onthis, but I even I had it just
did a trip with a family memberthe last uh last week, and I
found myself uh getting annoyedat one point when this person
was trying to tell me somethingthat I thought I already knew,
but they were explaining it in adifferent way, and they weren't
listening.
(18:16):
And I was just like gettingmyself annoyed, like, oh my
word, uh, what are you doing?
I just said this.
So it's it's again in theory,it's easy to talk about this.
In real life, we are susceptibleto getting triggered in in ways
that are the challenges.
SPEAKER_04 (18:31):
So you may use this, I don't know, but this is uh an
exercise I use with couples veryoften.
I typically use it while they'rein front of me so that I can
help navigate it if it isdifficult.
But then I often encourage themto do it once or twice before we
meet again.
And the exercise is prettysimple.
(18:51):
It's an active listeningexercise, and it starts off with
giving positive feedback to oneanother, and it goes in the form
of this prompt.
Here's something you do that Ilike and I wish you'd keep doing
or do more of it.
And I had the other person notengage in a conversation, but
simply respond with activelistening that says, here's what
(19:13):
I heard you say.
And that's all.
They don't try and react or add,they just make sure that they've
heard well and the other personfeels like they've been hurt.
Both people then have anopportunity to do this once or
twice of here's something you dothat I like, and I hope you keep
doing it.
I think that actually is alsosomething that can be done in
the workplace here.
(19:34):
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
No, that's absolutely true.
I mean, that that's a greatpoint because basically it's
clarification.
Yeah.
And everybody would do muchbetter if they would just
clarify what they thought theyheard.
Yeah.
And that just takes again, thattakes presence of mind.
Back again, talking about how dowe continue to develop a
presence of mind that we'reabsolutely engaged in the moment
(19:56):
and not in our inner thinkingabout what's going to happen in
the moment.
Moment, what did happen in themoment, but what's happening
right now in this moment?
It's it's this mindfulness, isall those things that the last
20 years in my field we'vereally tried to try to teach and
help people see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:12):
The second part of that exercise is the more
difficult part.
And sometimes they need help infiguring out how you frame what
you say.
But the second part is here'ssomething that you do that I
wish you did less of, or maybenot at all.
And it kind of opens up the doorto giving feedback that is may
(20:34):
not come across quite aspositively.
But when I help people say,let's say you have a partner who
is always putting themselvesdown.
Maybe that's what you wish theydid less of.
So you're not critiquing them interms of their personality, but
you're saying one of the thingsI wish you did less of was you
often direct humor at yourselfand minimize yourself.
(20:57):
I wish you did less of that ornot at all.
And then have the person repeatback what have you heard.
So there are all kinds of thingsthat you can do.
And if one of those, as thislistener has asked, is
inflexible thinking, to phraseit in such a way that says, one
of the things I wish you didless of was when I offer an
opinion, it feels like youpretty quickly minimize it.
(21:21):
And I wish you did less of that,or not at all.
And again, the first time it'snice for you to be there so you
can moderate that a little bitand help them.
Yeah, but if they develop apattern, they can use it then
use that on their own.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Absolutely.
No, it's that's that's a greatway of reframing it.
But it it is again back to yourfray, it's a delicate dance for
all of that.
Oh, yeah.
Because you're yeah.
You're basically challengingpeople on their stuff, and if
they're defensive, they'llchallenge you on your stuff, and
then you'll argue.
SPEAKER_04 (21:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've had couples come back andsay, yeah, that second half,
we're struggling with that.
That didn't go.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah, it's like it's like with one of my one of my
family members, they tend tominimize themselves.
And I'll say, you know, you youreally do, you know, minimize
yourself.
And they'll say, Yeah, I know Iprobably got self-esteem issues,
and they just dismiss it ratherthan it in uh understanding the
impact it has.
And they're, you know, kind ofset in their ways and older
(22:22):
anyway, but uh that couldcertainly affect it.
SPEAKER_04 (22:25):
I think one of the great outcomes is if somebody
does struggle with either partof that, like here's something
you do that I like, and I hopeyou do it more, keep doing it or
do more of.
I've had some people that havestruggled to come up with that
kind of positive information.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And and either side of thisexercise, it's great to explore
(22:46):
then why is this so difficultfor you?
Why is it so difficult to seegood things in yourself, good
things in others?
Let's talk through that familyof origin or wherever else that
comes from.
SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
And again, that that that opens opens up a whole
other dynamic because so much ofthe time they've defined
themselves by that trait, and tolet go of that is a big deal.
unknown (23:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
So if I'm naturally self-critical, it's my
definition, you challenge me onit, it's a natural way for me to
be.
And again, define myself thatway, it's it's a big deal to let
go of that.
Because they can't they have ahard time seeing the good sides
of themselves at times.
They're more comfortable seeingthe downside.
SPEAKER_04 (23:28):
And maybe this is too involved as a coach or uh
for a therapist, but sometimesthere is this feeling within me
of agony when I when I hearsomebody finding it's so
difficult to view themselves ona positive way.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:43):
It just kind of tears inwardly.
I have to take care of my ownstuff in that moment, but stay
fully present.
But yeah, yeah, that just hurts.
Okay.
Let me let me tackle one morequestion for us during this time
span.
And this has to do with acomment you made a number of
weeks ago that talked about theformation of personality and
(24:04):
personality forming, uh,beginning to clearly be formed
by age five, and certainly somecomponents form even before
that, but we begin to see itform in particular ways.
And the question coming from aparent about things that a
parent can do that help nurturea healthy integration, there's
(24:26):
probably going to be a naturaltendency, no matter what we do,
for a child to migrate to one ofthe four kind of quadrants of
the STIR paradigm that we use,the stabilizer, the transformer,
the responder, the initiator.
But if a parent is reallywanting to do as best they can
healthy parenting, what are someof the things that they can do
(24:49):
to help that child feelcomfortable in their own skin,
for one, but also to work towardan openness to have an
integrated future if possible.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
Yeah, no, I mean that that's again, my bias in
working with parents andfamilies has always been the
number one job, well, I mean,apart from uh, you know, feeding
and clothing is to really help achild manage their emotions.
And so as you do that, you'reyou have to be kind of aware of
your own, because you'll gettriggered by your kids'
(25:26):
emotions.
And then to validate the child,no matter what age, is an
important first step.
You validate, and then youactually use all the quadrants.
So they need containment attimes, they need nurturing at
times, they need for you todistract and think outside the
box and be the transformer, andthey need you to bring order to
(25:47):
things.
So, I mean, there's you use allof them when you interact
managing a kid's emotions fromthat perspective.
So, in other words, if if achild is throwing a fit, he
needs to be contained.
So that's stabilizing energy.
How do you bring order tothings?
Well, the way you do that, youmay need to use a transformer to
distract from what's happeningin the moment.
And you'll be and you'll have touse the responder to kind of
(26:11):
stay present as much as you can,again, without being triggered
yourself.
And then the final one is whenyou redirect, you set a goal for
the kid to ship their energy.
So, really, you be more familiaryou become with all the
different quadrants when youtalk about managing a child's
emotions, that's really how youdo it.
And some obviously some childrenare more naturally affected that
(26:34):
or approachable that way.
And some parents are limitedbecause of their own lack of
self-awareness.
SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
So really the first step in that creative parenting
and engaged parenting is tobecome self-aware, to know where
you fall, what your naturaltendencies are, and what maybe
your kind of weaknesses orbiases are in regard to
personality styles.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Aaron Powell And to be very realistic, at some
point, if the child istriggering you, they're probably
a lot like you.
So typically the other parentprobably needs to step in and
and do the parenting.
SPEAKER_04 (27:13):
Yeah, we could move on quickly, but I don't want to.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
That's a lot of there's a lot of dynamics to
that.
SPEAKER_04 (27:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But but just to help parents notfeel so guilty about some of the
things that they face inparenting, I just want to say
once again that your comment, ifa child often triggers you,
there is a strong likelihoodthat they have some
(27:41):
characteristics that are justlike you.
And it's your lack ofself-awareness that sometimes is
getting triggered because youdon't see those similarities or
you're seeing the extreme of it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
Yeah.
And your spouse will point out,well, they're just being just
like you.
And that's that goes over great.
Yeah, not usually.
But but if you can hear it,that's the that's the growth of
being in a relationship, is thatthey'll give you feedback and
pushback that makes you better.
Uh kids, you know, sometimescouples do great until they have
(28:14):
children because the childrenwill bring out the natural
differences that you kind ofoverlook or or love through,
which is a a a great concept insome ways, is to just love
through them in the sense thatthere are always going to be
traits that upset us and triggerus that are legitimate.
And we have to kind of workaround them in some ways and
(28:36):
love love past them when theydon't really say anything about
you.
They just your partner has atrait that is difficult.
And it's not necessarily alwaysabout something inside of the
individual.
So there's a lot to this as faras how the effects of parenting.
It's a great question.
Everybody wants to raise reallyhealthy kids, and I think the
(28:58):
way you do that is is to workconsistently on being healthy
yourself, consistently on beinghealthy yourself.
I just repeated myself.
I apologize, but I screwed upthat one word.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
That is a great description, even kind of a
summary that in acknowledgingthat children change the dynamic
of marriage relationships justbecause they expose things that
you have kind of contained bythe way you've handled the
relationship over the years.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
And almost always they'll say, and then we had
kids.
SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Yeah.
And and again, the kids, themore the the the more extreme
the the couple is as far astheir own personal approach to
life, their personalities, themore likely the kids are going
to bring out those differences.
And so that that's why itbecomes more stressful because
you you kind of acted as if youweren't fully aware of how
(30:03):
different you were as a coupleuntil the kids come along.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (30:08):
Is it also fair to say that just developmental
psychology should prepare us forthe fact that what works well
with our five-year-old is goingto shift when they hit junior
high age or high school age.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
Absolutely.
And you still and they make iteven more challenging to
validate their feelings.
To validate their feelings.
Yes.
Uh, because they're having theirown and they don't care if
you're validating them or not.
Especially as they move intoyounger adolescents and teen
years, their whole job seems tobe to really push back and
challenge.
And again, to make the systembetter and healthier.
(30:47):
The healthiest family, thehealthiest families are able to
really uh examine how theyaffect each other and be open
about it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
Yeah.
unknown (30:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
That's probably a that's probably a whole podcast
just trying to sort out uh thehealth a healthy family, which
is an oxymoron in some ways.
SPEAKER_04 (31:05):
That's a great point.
The shift that takes place whenchildren begin to individuate.
And individuation is probablytaking place through most of
their journey, but there comes atime where they really push
against the family system.
And overall, that's a necessity.
It's essential for their owngrowth.
And to hit that stage, notexpecting it, like you've had
(31:29):
this great relationship allalong, and all of a sudden there
are things that they're notsharing with me anymore, and
we're not having the sameconversations.
And the from my perspective, itis fantastic.
Wow, this is that wonderfulstage, but they don't receive it
often as being fantastic.
SPEAKER_00 (31:46):
Not at all.
And parents get defensive, theyfeel hurt, they feel rejected,
all these things because they'vebeen lulled into a false sense
that the child is going to betheir friend forever.
And they go through this phasewhere, no, they they define
themselves outside of the sfamily system oftentimes, and
it's very threatening.
And then you have the otherextreme where the kids are so
(32:07):
comfortable and and sointegrated that the family seems
to just to hang together all theway through adolescence and even
to young adulthood.
And those families you kind ofcompare and think, man, what do
they what do they do reallywell?
Well, my guess is from an earlyage, they validated those kids'
emotions and their desiresreally well.
So but there's no there's nospecific perfect formula in any
(32:32):
of this.
SPEAKER_04 (32:33):
One last piece of this, though, that came from the
listener was the question ofonce kids reach school age and
they're entering into a systemwhere there is kind of a sense
of um maybe competition grades,whether you make the team or
not, whether you get first chairor second chair in the band, all
(32:54):
of these things that have kindof a, from the listener's
perspective, in a initiatorperspective to them that that
draws out those kids that havestrong initiating energy and
leaves behind some kids thatmaybe don't have that at all.
So as a parent who doesn't, inthis case, doesn't want to take
(33:17):
them out of school systems,believes in the school system,
but recognizes that as kind of abias of the system, what do you
do as a parent to try and keepyour kid healthy and nurtured in
situations?
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Many different directions you can go with that,
but but for this uhconversation, let's let's say
your kid initiates, wants toplay a particular sport, and
they're okay at it.
But then as they as they agethrough it, they're not as good,
they aren't keeping up, but theythink that they can, and they
think that they want to.
(33:53):
And then at what point does aparent really have a hard
conversation with their kidsbasically saying, you know, your
gifts are over here, you're notas gifted in this area, what do
we need to do with this?
Well, again, the personality ofthe child may be so initiating
and so need to be in charge thatthey don't want to see it.
And so that's where thevalidation piece and just the
(34:14):
constant talking about withoutdiscouraging the child, pointing
out the things that they doreally well.
But if they want to do one thingreally well that they don't do
really well, that's a that's areally, really difficult
conversation to have.
It's like telling your kid thetruth rather than continuing to
foster the idea that they'regoing to be, they're gonna be in
the NBA sometime.
(34:34):
Well, no, you're four foot two,probably not.
I mean, some of those some ofthose things are realistic
enough to think, okay, that'snot going to happen.
But but sometimes a kid is, youknow, they're 5'10 or 5'9 and
they're really good, but thatthe next level they don't get
to, and they can becomediscouraged and fall back into a
pretty negative pattern ofbehavior.
(34:56):
So a lot of that uh there's somany different dynamics as far
as how to navigate that, thatit's it uh we're time-limited
probably in being able to dothat.
Those are great questions.
It's trying to be again, you'retrying to be present, trying to
validate their strengths and beas honest about them as you can.
If you've done that from earlyages, it makes those adolescent
(35:17):
years a little bit more tenable,I think.
SPEAKER_04 (35:20):
Yeah.
I also think as you work to tryand understand your child, you
may find out that their strongdesire to try out for teams or
be part of teams and they're notreally good in that area is
because they are very relationaloriented and they love the group
or the kids that are there orthe friends that are there.
And they may not be good.
(35:40):
And if that is what they'relooking for, sometimes you just
nurture that and say, oh, great.
I that's great.
You realize they are realisticthat they're never gonna make
these mistakes.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
That's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_04 (35:52):
Yeah.
I also think that it'sapplicable to the work
environment where a supervisorhas employees that go, Yeah,
you're not good at that.
So you have other talents andskills.
So these principles apply atmany different levels.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, I remember uh a year a
hundred years ago, the formerCEO of General Electric, he
wrote a book, this is probably30 years ago.
Yeah, basically said the bestthing I can do for a person is
telling the truth.
unknown (36:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:20):
And that may be that may be telling you're not good
at this.
It's because that releases themto go and find something that
they're good at.
But, you know.
So I that's a that's the thingabout the culture at large.
We could probably spend a wholesession on just on the role of
accountability and how we'vegotten away from really a
healthy accountability for eachother as to how we're being
(36:40):
experienced.
And our culture basicallyembraces it and says, hey, go
for it, whatever, whateveryou're feeling, let's do that.
And I think it's verydetrimental to really a healthy,
balanced life when we when wethrow accountability out the out
the window for our emotions, forour feelings, or whatever.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (36:59):
That's actually a great place to bring this to an
end.
We're gonna dig into a few morequestions that our listeners
have had.
And if you have a question, Ihope you to go to one of our
websites and just let us knowwhat your question is.
We'll see if we can cover it.
It's been wonderful to be withyou, Jim.
Thank you.
Thank you, Dee.
Talk to you soon.
Yep.
(37:25):
That's it for this episode ofTherapy, Coaching, and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I am one of your co-hosts, D.
Kelly.
And I want to let you know thatas we move into the next couple
of episodes, we are tacklingsome of the questions that have
been submitted by our listeners.
And you're welcome to submit aquestion as well by going to
either one of our websites andsubmitting a question that you
(00:20):
have about the things that we'vebeen talking about.
As well, we thought that thisparticular episode, we might
pull back the curtain a littlebit on the production of this
particular podcast.
We often press the record buttonbefore we actually start.
And this time we picked up someof the conversation that was
outlining where we were goingtoday.
(00:42):
And we thought you might want tolisten in to some of that
background.
It's about the first fourminutes of this episode, so feel
free to skip ahead if you don'twant to listen to that stuff.
But welcome.
We're glad you're here.
Okay, this is probably a goodone to start on.
These two.
I'll do these two.
And I've got four more.
So maybe we'll just get started.
(01:03):
But here's one that I'llprobably start on.
You made a comment that by agefive, our personality is
solidifying in a particulardirection, approximately by age
five.
So we can have these intelligentconversations with most
five-year-olds.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Ah Yep.
That's why that one book.
Does anybody ever get out ofkindergarten or whatever it was?
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Yeah, you really don't read books because that's
an ethical title.
Stuff like that though.
Yeah, it's close.
It's close.
Everything I have learned, Ilearned in kindergarten.
There you go.
My goodness.
(01:48):
But you haven't read it, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
No, you don't read it.
SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
So the question was if I'm the parent of this four,
five, six, seven-year-old, whatare some of the ways by which in
parenting I encourageintegration?
Individuation comes later, butthis is more of an encouragement
of integration.
And then the follow-up questionwas, it seems like schools, at
(02:16):
least at some level, rewardcompetition, grade systems or
extracurricular activities thatrequire sports teams or music
where you get first chair orsecond chair or whatever, which
seems to lean toward the dynamicside of things, the initiator,
(02:39):
maybe the transformer, but morethe initiator.
What do you do as a parent totry and balance that in terms of
better integration of life'sjourney?
That was a great one.
And then another question, Ithink, is a great one that said,
now, Jim, who's a therapist, isby nature given the task to call
(03:01):
out stuff and people.
They come to you because that'swhat you do.
Well, if you're not a therapistand you're in a relationship
with people, how do you approachsomebody that has inflexible
thinking if you think it's animportant thing to do, but
you're not a therapist, soyou're not given the task to do
(03:22):
that for somebody.
So I love that one.
So anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
That is a good question.
SPEAKER_04 (03:26):
Yeah.
So here's what I think we'll do.
Let's start with that question,because it's a great lead-in.
Jim is the therapist.
And then we're probably going togo to a parenting question, the
one I just mentioned.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Okay.
You ready?
Sure.
You just wanted to talk aboutyour dream, so maybe that's what
we got in couple.
SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
If I can remember it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:54):
Oh my goodness.
See, I don't think season two isgonna work because you don't put
into practice anything that Isay about how I remember them or
you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
So no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna be better.
I should have.
I woke up and I thought, that'sa good dream.
I probably should remember that.
And then I didn't.
Yeah, I think we're gonna gostraight to season three.
SPEAKER_04 (04:23):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
It is great to have you here.
I'm your co-host, D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shaley.
And we are exploring the innerlandscape of personality and
digging a little bit deeper intowhy we do some of the things
that we do and how we couldbetter integrate our life by
having uh uh increasedself-awareness.
So, Jim, great to be with you.
(04:44):
Great to be with you, Dee.
Thanks.
I'm gonna start off with aquestion.
We've had several questions thathave come in from listeners.
Thought it might be good toaddress a few of those.
And one mentioned you by name.
The question went something likethat.
Oh, excellent.
Okay.
That's right.
So they are at least rememberingthat.
Yeah, that's and rememberingthat you are the authority in
(05:06):
this podcast.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
That's that's a scary place tobe.
Here's what here's what wasasked referencing you.
Now, Jim is a therapist, and bynature, a therapist is tasked
with the responsibility to callout stuff in people.
And that's what somebody comesto you and they're expecting you
to name something in their life.
(05:27):
So they come with a certainlevel of expectation.
This person was asking if you'renot a therapist and you're in a
relationship or a friendship ormaybe a vocational setting, and
you feel like it's important tocall out inflexible thinking in
somebody or something along theline of what we've been talking
(05:50):
about in numerous episodes, butyou've not been given permission
to do that necessarily.
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
Well, uh it would be an interesting question to ask
the the listener is that havethey asked for the permission to
do that?
SPEAKER_04 (06:03):
So that's a great point.
And maybe that's step numberone.
How do we go about in arelationship even bringing that
topic up?
When you're when you're workingwith couples, let's say, how do
you begin to develop a patternwithin them where it's okay to
have those conversations ifthat's not been a pattern of
their journey?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
I mean, that for therapy to be effective.
I mean, now there is someexpectation in what you said,
expectation of of accountabilitywhen it comes to therapy, but
it's may not be at the forefrontof a lot of clients.
It's like as you developrapport, you develop you have a
sense of what you can push backon and what you can't.
(06:45):
So the rapport building aspectis essential.
Now, there is an expectationthat you're going to have
something constructive to say orfeedback that you're going to
give them about how they'rebeing experienced.
And personal lives, yeah, that'salways a delicate part.
It's like, okay, is yourfriendship strong enough and
(07:06):
have you agreed that we can givepushback as to how you're
experiencing each other?
In family dynamics, if there'sone dominating personality and
you want to challenge that styleof personality, it's almost like
you have to be okay if it goesoff the rails, or if it doesn't,
(07:27):
if you have the commitment to dothat.
But it comes down to therelationship in large part.
It's like, do I want to trustthe relationship enough to do
that?
Or am I modeling that fromothers?
Like, can am I, do I allowpeople to challenge me?
So there's a lot of back andforth in that in that sense.
But yeah, especially we justcome through the holiday times
(07:48):
and a lot of families willexperience personality types
that they may struggle with.
And then do you know mess up allthe holidays by trying to
challenge someone's style?
Yeah, that's a that's a reallydelicate place to go.
I would start to reiterate whatI said, I would start initially
by trying to clarify theboundaries of any relationship
(08:09):
and say, is that is that a partof what we want to do?
A lot of times we'll tease andwe'll use humor and family
dynamics to kind of point outthings, but oftentimes we don't
take that to a more seriouslevel to really investigate how
you're experiencing each other.
That can be very useful, but itcan also also be very delicate
as far as how individualsrespond to that.
SPEAKER_04 (08:33):
Yeah.
Teasing can be a defensemechanism.
Like I don't know how to reallysay this, so I'm defensive.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
Absolutely.
Sarcasm, anything like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:41):
I'm guessing you probably do this, but if not,
tell me what you do instead.
When I'm working with clients, Ican't think of a time where I
haven't done this, that in theopening session with them,
there's a clarifying ofobjectives, like what is it you
want to accomplish?
Why are you here?
Fill me in on what you'd like tosee as uh a result of our time
(09:05):
together.
And in doing that, when I hearthe objectives that they have, I
usually have a response thatsays, now in order to do that,
I'm gonna have to ask somequestions.
We're gonna go down somepathways.
And it begins to kind of pavethe way for those kinds of
conversations.
And I I wonder, I don't wonder.
(09:28):
I I believe that relationshipsthat we have, sometimes the way
by which you bridge theprivilege of speaking into
conversations is to ask somequestions about what are we
trying to accomplish in thisrelationship, or where are we
going with this?
And how could we go about havingconversations of things that
(09:50):
might keep us from gettingthere?
And I think that's true in workrelationships, certainly in
marriage relationships.
And when you chart a course,part of charting the course is,
well, there are only a certainnumber of pathways that get us
there.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah.
I think if more families orfamily dynamics are friends or
whatever had a component to it,what you're describing, I think,
is basically I'm curious enoughto want to know how you think
the way you think.
So then I spend time askingquestions in the interaction as
opposed to imposing my thoughtsor feelings about how I'm
(10:28):
experiencing you.
It really shifts from the oldadage, do you speak to to
understand or to be understood?
If we take that approach tofamily dynamics and say, that's
interesting that you think that.
Tell me more about that.
Now, does that sound like atherapist on some level?
Yes.
But it can also be a way, itcould be a way to answer the
(10:49):
first person's question, whichis basically, how do you go
about speaking into someone'slife?
Well, the best way to do it isask questions.
And then really watch howdefensive you become or how
passionate you become inresponse, because that will tell
you more about yourself.
SPEAKER_04 (11:06):
Yeah, that's a great point.
You've talked in a previousepisode about being comfortable
with another person not thinkingthe way you think.
And that one of the kind ofapproaches that you take
sometimes is to just speak theother side of the equation,
whether you believe it or not,try to try and expand somebody's
(11:27):
inflexible thinking, which is agreat approach.
It's a very therapeuticapproach.
Do you think that that works inrelationships?
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yeah, it works if you want to argue.
If you don't really want thatrelationship, exactly.
You want to move on to anotherfriend, absolutely use that
style.
Yeah.
No, it's like it's like uh youhave to be careful that you're
not just being oppositional foroppositional sake.
(12:00):
But to try to be moreappropriate, you would say, have
you thought about it this way?
If you want to do that.
But that's what's happening inthe last five years.
It's like people just startarguing and they get passionate
about their views as opposed toreally listening to each other.
Now, again, I I'm trying toclarify what the question really
is trying to get at.
(12:21):
It may really be if youexperience someone that has a
very challenging personalitythat you find abrasive.
It goes back to another one ofour conversations.
Is there something in you that'sgetting triggered because you
have the same trait?
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Are are denying it.
So you have to clarify that partof it.
On the other hand, if it's justsomeone who's just abrasive or
(12:42):
he's control they'recontrolling, or they just need
to their way, it's like, yeah,it could be to the point it's so
toxic that they aren't open tothat kind of feedback.
And so then you have to decidewhat you want to do with that
relationship.
SPEAKER_04 (12:54):
Yeah, I I don't want to miss here.
I think there you justidentified two very distinct,
but both very important,components to this.
The first is that notion of if Ikeep getting triggered, what are
what is it that keeps triggeringme?
And the corollary to that is ifI keep attracting certain types
(13:17):
of people into my life that leadto that triggering, what is what
is it that I'm not aware ofwithin that keeps drawing the
universe keeps drawing thosekinds of people to me that needs
to be brought intoconsciousness?
So that's like part one.
That's a big part.
Yeah.
That's a big part.
So then the second part is asawareness levels increase and
(13:40):
you're seeing what triggers you,but you also feel like that the
person that you are in whateverrelationship is, has a side to
them that makes relationshipdifficult, finding the way that
is both self-aware and notcondemning to enter into the
conversation of why somethingfeels abrasive or why something
(14:05):
feels incongruent, or theability to bring it up with
another person to have aconversation that doesn't raise
everybody's defenses all atonce.
And that that's a real delicatedance.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
It is very delicate.
And the cla the classic way thatthe therapy would a therapist
would talk about it, or atherapy guy or person or
whatever, they would saybasically I statements as
opposed to you statements.
So, you know, you you're justobnoxious is one way of doing
it.
SPEAKER_04 (14:37):
And that would be a you statement.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
That's the first word you.
Yes, it would be a youstatement.
As opposed to I experiencing youas being obnoxious.
SPEAKER_02 (14:50):
No, no, no, no.
That is not an statement.
That's that's another youstatement.
SPEAKER_00 (14:58):
Uh yeah, so basically, again, it's like you
I know people are gonna that arelistening and are gonna think,
well, you're a therapist and andyou think that way.
But on the on the other hand,it's like, do I really want the
relationship?
So if I do, I would say, can Ishare with you how I experience
you?
If you really want to challengethe relationship and really want
(15:21):
to see if you can have aconversation with that person,
that's probably the best way todo it.
Now, that that sounds, you know,therapized and all the other
stuff, but at least it could llet you know where the other
person's coming from.
SPEAKER_04 (15:34):
I just need to write down in words I want to use in
the future that I've never usedbefore, therapized.
Absolutely.
I like that one.
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
I've I've been therapy.
Well, a lot of a lot of spouseswould say, I've been therap, my
my my wife or my husband'stherapizing me.
Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_04 (15:53):
Yeah.
Um, okay, before we leave this,I I want to just help a little
bit more with the framing ofthat in a setting where it's not
already inflamed with energy ofconflict or problems when there
seems to be a moment whereconversation is amenable to both
(16:15):
parties.
A question along the line of,would it be okay if I tell you
how I experience you?
unknown (16:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (16:23):
That's uh that'd be great.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
I also sometimes demands the person is asking
that question, they have to bepretty grounded and and aware of
their own triggers.
Because that's that's a kind ofI'm I'm watching myself function
on some level.
I'm not as engaged.
I'm really trying to have aconversation that's that's most
(16:46):
people don't have.
I mean, to be honest, I don'tthink they do.
Yeah.
I think that's that's the ideaof the podcast, is trying to
push people to a place of moregroundedness so they don't get
triggered as often.
SPEAKER_04 (16:59):
And and you probably will run into problems if then
the next question you ask is Iexperience you as a jerk.
It it has to be couched in interms that they can hear.
SPEAKER_01 (17:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (17:13):
And often with an example.
So when you respond to me inthis particular way, my defenses
go up because it feels like veryinflexible thinking.
So it acknowledges what happensinside of me.
It doesn't say that it isinflexible thinking.
It's just that's how Iexperience it in those moments,
which allows the other person alittle more leeway to not feel
(17:35):
attacked.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Well, yeah.
And the other thing that thatthat does, it begins to model
the interaction you want bysimply saying, I'm getting
defensive.
I find myself getting defensive.
And that that can actually be away for the other person to kind
of match you if if they want to,as far as more self-awareness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's it'sfascinating.
(17:56):
I mean, I I try to work hard onthis, but I even I had it just
did a trip with a family memberthe last uh last week, and I
found myself uh getting annoyedat one point when this person
was trying to tell me somethingthat I thought I already knew,
but they were explaining it in adifferent way, and they weren't
listening.
(18:16):
And I was just like gettingmyself annoyed, like, oh my
word, uh, what are you doing?
I just said this.
So it's it's again in theory,it's easy to talk about this.
In real life, we are susceptibleto getting triggered in in ways
that are the challenges.
SPEAKER_04 (18:31):
So you may use this, I don't know, but this is uh an
exercise I use with couples veryoften.
I typically use it while they'rein front of me so that I can
help navigate it if it isdifficult.
But then I often encourage themto do it once or twice before we
meet again.
And the exercise is prettysimple.
(18:51):
It's an active listeningexercise, and it starts off with
giving positive feedback to oneanother, and it goes in the form
of this prompt.
Here's something you do that Ilike and I wish you'd keep doing
or do more of it.
And I had the other person notengage in a conversation, but
simply respond with activelistening that says, here's what
(19:13):
I heard you say.
And that's all.
They don't try and react or add,they just make sure that they've
heard well and the other personfeels like they've been hurt.
Both people then have anopportunity to do this once or
twice of here's something you dothat I like, and I hope you keep
doing it.
I think that actually is alsosomething that can be done in
the workplace here.
(19:34):
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
No, that's absolutely true.
I mean, that that's a greatpoint because basically it's
clarification.
Yeah.
And everybody would do muchbetter if they would just
clarify what they thought theyheard.
Yeah.
And that just takes again, thattakes presence of mind.
Back again, talking about how dowe continue to develop a
presence of mind that we'reabsolutely engaged in the moment
(19:56):
and not in our inner thinkingabout what's going to happen in
the moment.
Moment, what did happen in themoment, but what's happening
right now in this moment?
It's it's this mindfulness, isall those things that the last
20 years in my field we'vereally tried to try to teach and
help people see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:12):
The second part of that exercise is the more
difficult part.
And sometimes they need help infiguring out how you frame what
you say.
But the second part is here'ssomething that you do that I
wish you did less of, or maybenot at all.
And it kind of opens up the doorto giving feedback that is may
(20:34):
not come across quite aspositively.
But when I help people say,let's say you have a partner who
is always putting themselvesdown.
Maybe that's what you wish theydid less of.
So you're not critiquing them interms of their personality, but
you're saying one of the thingsI wish you did less of was you
often direct humor at yourselfand minimize yourself.
(20:57):
I wish you did less of that ornot at all.
And then have the person repeatback what have you heard.
So there are all kinds of thingsthat you can do.
And if one of those, as thislistener has asked, is
inflexible thinking, to phraseit in such a way that says, one
of the things I wish you didless of was when I offer an
opinion, it feels like youpretty quickly minimize it.
(21:21):
And I wish you did less of that,or not at all.
And again, the first time it'snice for you to be there so you
can moderate that a little bitand help them.
Yeah, but if they develop apattern, they can use it then
use that on their own.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Absolutely.
No, it's that's that's a greatway of reframing it.
But it it is again back to yourfray, it's a delicate dance for
all of that.
Oh, yeah.
Because you're yeah.
You're basically challengingpeople on their stuff, and if
they're defensive, they'llchallenge you on your stuff, and
then you'll argue.
SPEAKER_04 (21:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've had couples come back andsay, yeah, that second half,
we're struggling with that.
That didn't go.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah, it's like it's like with one of my one of my
family members, they tend tominimize themselves.
And I'll say, you know, you youreally do, you know, minimize
yourself.
And they'll say, Yeah, I know Iprobably got self-esteem issues,
and they just dismiss it ratherthan it in uh understanding the
impact it has.
And they're, you know, kind ofset in their ways and older
(22:22):
anyway, but uh that couldcertainly affect it.
SPEAKER_04 (22:25):
I think one of the great outcomes is if somebody
does struggle with either partof that, like here's something
you do that I like, and I hopeyou do it more, keep doing it or
do more of.
I've had some people that havestruggled to come up with that
kind of positive information.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And and either side of thisexercise, it's great to explore
(22:46):
then why is this so difficultfor you?
Why is it so difficult to seegood things in yourself, good
things in others?
Let's talk through that familyof origin or wherever else that
comes from.
SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
And again, that that that opens opens up a whole
other dynamic because so much ofthe time they've defined
themselves by that trait, and tolet go of that is a big deal.
unknown (23:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
So if I'm naturally self-critical, it's my
definition, you challenge me onit, it's a natural way for me to
be.
And again, define myself thatway, it's it's a big deal to let
go of that.
Because they can't they have ahard time seeing the good sides
of themselves at times.
They're more comfortable seeingthe downside.
SPEAKER_04 (23:28):
And maybe this is too involved as a coach or uh
for a therapist, but sometimesthere is this feeling within me
of agony when I when I hearsomebody finding it's so
difficult to view themselves ona positive way.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:43):
It just kind of tears inwardly.
I have to take care of my ownstuff in that moment, but stay
fully present.
But yeah, yeah, that just hurts.
Okay.
Let me let me tackle one morequestion for us during this time
span.
And this has to do with acomment you made a number of
weeks ago that talked about theformation of personality and
(24:04):
personality forming, uh,beginning to clearly be formed
by age five, and certainly somecomponents form even before
that, but we begin to see itform in particular ways.
And the question coming from aparent about things that a
parent can do that help nurturea healthy integration, there's
(24:26):
probably going to be a naturaltendency, no matter what we do,
for a child to migrate to one ofthe four kind of quadrants of
the STIR paradigm that we use,the stabilizer, the transformer,
the responder, the initiator.
But if a parent is reallywanting to do as best they can
healthy parenting, what are someof the things that they can do
(24:49):
to help that child feelcomfortable in their own skin,
for one, but also to work towardan openness to have an
integrated future if possible.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
Yeah, no, I mean that that's again, my bias in
working with parents andfamilies has always been the
number one job, well, I mean,apart from uh, you know, feeding
and clothing is to really help achild manage their emotions.
And so as you do that, you'reyou have to be kind of aware of
your own, because you'll gettriggered by your kids'
(25:26):
emotions.
And then to validate the child,no matter what age, is an
important first step.
You validate, and then youactually use all the quadrants.
So they need containment attimes, they need nurturing at
times, they need for you todistract and think outside the
box and be the transformer, andthey need you to bring order to
(25:47):
things.
So, I mean, there's you use allof them when you interact
managing a kid's emotions fromthat perspective.
So, in other words, if if achild is throwing a fit, he
needs to be contained.
So that's stabilizing energy.
How do you bring order tothings?
Well, the way you do that, youmay need to use a transformer to
distract from what's happeningin the moment.
And you'll be and you'll have touse the responder to kind of
(26:11):
stay present as much as you can,again, without being triggered
yourself.
And then the final one is whenyou redirect, you set a goal for
the kid to ship their energy.
So, really, you be more familiaryou become with all the
different quadrants when youtalk about managing a child's
emotions, that's really how youdo it.
And some obviously some childrenare more naturally affected that
(26:34):
or approachable that way.
And some parents are limitedbecause of their own lack of
self-awareness.
SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
So really the first step in that creative parenting
and engaged parenting is tobecome self-aware, to know where
you fall, what your naturaltendencies are, and what maybe
your kind of weaknesses orbiases are in regard to
personality styles.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Aaron Powell And to be very realistic, at some
point, if the child istriggering you, they're probably
a lot like you.
So typically the other parentprobably needs to step in and
and do the parenting.
SPEAKER_04 (27:13):
Yeah, we could move on quickly, but I don't want to.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
That's a lot of there's a lot of dynamics to
that.
SPEAKER_04 (27:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But but just to help parents notfeel so guilty about some of the
things that they face inparenting, I just want to say
once again that your comment, ifa child often triggers you,
there is a strong likelihoodthat they have some
(27:41):
characteristics that are justlike you.
And it's your lack ofself-awareness that sometimes is
getting triggered because youdon't see those similarities or
you're seeing the extreme of it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
Yeah.
And your spouse will point out,well, they're just being just
like you.
And that's that goes over great.
Yeah, not usually.
But but if you can hear it,that's the that's the growth of
being in a relationship, is thatthey'll give you feedback and
pushback that makes you better.
Uh kids, you know, sometimescouples do great until they have
(28:14):
children because the childrenwill bring out the natural
differences that you kind ofoverlook or or love through,
which is a a a great concept insome ways, is to just love
through them in the sense thatthere are always going to be
traits that upset us and triggerus that are legitimate.
And we have to kind of workaround them in some ways and
(28:36):
love love past them when theydon't really say anything about
you.
They just your partner has atrait that is difficult.
And it's not necessarily alwaysabout something inside of the
individual.
So there's a lot to this as faras how the effects of parenting.
It's a great question.
Everybody wants to raise reallyhealthy kids, and I think the
(28:58):
way you do that is is to workconsistently on being healthy
yourself, consistently on beinghealthy yourself.
I just repeated myself.
I apologize, but I screwed upthat one word.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
That is a great description, even kind of a
summary that in acknowledgingthat children change the dynamic
of marriage relationships justbecause they expose things that
you have kind of contained bythe way you've handled the
relationship over the years.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
And almost always they'll say, and then we had
kids.
SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Yeah.
And and again, the kids, themore the the the more extreme
the the couple is as far astheir own personal approach to
life, their personalities, themore likely the kids are going
to bring out those differences.
And so that that's why itbecomes more stressful because
you you kind of acted as if youweren't fully aware of how
(30:03):
different you were as a coupleuntil the kids come along.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (30:08):
Is it also fair to say that just developmental
psychology should prepare us forthe fact that what works well
with our five-year-old is goingto shift when they hit junior
high age or high school age.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
Absolutely.
And you still and they make iteven more challenging to
validate their feelings.
To validate their feelings.
Yes.
Uh, because they're having theirown and they don't care if
you're validating them or not.
Especially as they move intoyounger adolescents and teen
years, their whole job seems tobe to really push back and
challenge.
And again, to make the systembetter and healthier.
(30:47):
The healthiest family, thehealthiest families are able to
really uh examine how theyaffect each other and be open
about it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
Yeah.
unknown (30:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
That's probably a that's probably a whole podcast
just trying to sort out uh thehealth a healthy family, which
is an oxymoron in some ways.
SPEAKER_04 (31:05):
That's a great point.
The shift that takes place whenchildren begin to individuate.
And individuation is probablytaking place through most of
their journey, but there comes atime where they really push
against the family system.
And overall, that's a necessity.
It's essential for their owngrowth.
And to hit that stage, notexpecting it, like you've had
(31:29):
this great relationship allalong, and all of a sudden there
are things that they're notsharing with me anymore, and
we're not having the sameconversations.
And the from my perspective, itis fantastic.
Wow, this is that wonderfulstage, but they don't receive it
often as being fantastic.
SPEAKER_00 (31:46):
Not at all.
And parents get defensive, theyfeel hurt, they feel rejected,
all these things because they'vebeen lulled into a false sense
that the child is going to betheir friend forever.
And they go through this phasewhere, no, they they define
themselves outside of the sfamily system oftentimes, and
it's very threatening.
And then you have the otherextreme where the kids are so
(32:07):
comfortable and and sointegrated that the family seems
to just to hang together all theway through adolescence and even
to young adulthood.
And those families you kind ofcompare and think, man, what do
they what do they do reallywell?
Well, my guess is from an earlyage, they validated those kids'
emotions and their desiresreally well.
So but there's no there's nospecific perfect formula in any
(32:32):
of this.
SPEAKER_04 (32:33):
One last piece of this, though, that came from the
listener was the question ofonce kids reach school age and
they're entering into a systemwhere there is kind of a sense
of um maybe competition grades,whether you make the team or
not, whether you get first chairor second chair in the band, all
(32:54):
of these things that have kindof a, from the listener's
perspective, in a initiatorperspective to them that that
draws out those kids that havestrong initiating energy and
leaves behind some kids thatmaybe don't have that at all.
So as a parent who doesn't, inthis case, doesn't want to take
(33:17):
them out of school systems,believes in the school system,
but recognizes that as kind of abias of the system, what do you
do as a parent to try and keepyour kid healthy and nurtured in
situations?
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Many different directions you can go with that,
but but for this uhconversation, let's let's say
your kid initiates, wants toplay a particular sport, and
they're okay at it.
But then as they as they agethrough it, they're not as good,
they aren't keeping up, but theythink that they can, and they
think that they want to.
(33:53):
And then at what point does aparent really have a hard
conversation with their kidsbasically saying, you know, your
gifts are over here, you're notas gifted in this area, what do
we need to do with this?
Well, again, the personality ofthe child may be so initiating
and so need to be in charge thatthey don't want to see it.
And so that's where thevalidation piece and just the
(34:14):
constant talking about withoutdiscouraging the child, pointing
out the things that they doreally well.
But if they want to do one thingreally well that they don't do
really well, that's a that's areally, really difficult
conversation to have.
It's like telling your kid thetruth rather than continuing to
foster the idea that they'regoing to be, they're gonna be in
the NBA sometime.
(34:34):
Well, no, you're four foot two,probably not.
I mean, some of those some ofthose things are realistic
enough to think, okay, that'snot going to happen.
But but sometimes a kid is, youknow, they're 5'10 or 5'9 and
they're really good, but thatthe next level they don't get
to, and they can becomediscouraged and fall back into a
pretty negative pattern ofbehavior.
(34:56):
So a lot of that uh there's somany different dynamics as far
as how to navigate that, thatit's it uh we're time-limited
probably in being able to dothat.
Those are great questions.
It's trying to be again, you'retrying to be present, trying to
validate their strengths and beas honest about them as you can.
If you've done that from earlyages, it makes those adolescent
(35:17):
years a little bit more tenable,I think.
SPEAKER_04 (35:20):
Yeah.
I also think as you work to tryand understand your child, you
may find out that their strongdesire to try out for teams or
be part of teams and they're notreally good in that area is
because they are very relationaloriented and they love the group
or the kids that are there orthe friends that are there.
And they may not be good.
(35:40):
And if that is what they'relooking for, sometimes you just
nurture that and say, oh, great.
I that's great.
You realize they are realisticthat they're never gonna make
these mistakes.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
That's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_04 (35:52):
Yeah.
I also think that it'sapplicable to the work
environment where a supervisorhas employees that go, Yeah,
you're not good at that.
So you have other talents andskills.
So these principles apply atmany different levels.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, I remember uh a year a
hundred years ago, the formerCEO of General Electric, he
wrote a book, this is probably30 years ago.
Yeah, basically said the bestthing I can do for a person is
telling the truth.
unknown (36:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:20):
And that may be that may be telling you're not good
at this.
It's because that releases themto go and find something that
they're good at.
But, you know.
So I that's a that's the thingabout the culture at large.
We could probably spend a wholesession on just on the role of
accountability and how we'vegotten away from really a
healthy accountability for eachother as to how we're being
(36:40):
experienced.
And our culture basicallyembraces it and says, hey, go
for it, whatever, whateveryou're feeling, let's do that.
And I think it's verydetrimental to really a healthy,
balanced life when we when wethrow accountability out the out
the window for our emotions, forour feelings, or whatever.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (36:59):
That's actually a great place to bring this to an
end.
We're gonna dig into a few morequestions that our listeners
have had.
And if you have a question, Ihope you to go to one of our
websites and just let us knowwhat your question is.
We'll see if we can cover it.
It's been wonderful to be withyou, Jim.
Thank you.
Thank you, Dee.
Talk to you soon.
Yep.
(37:25):
That's it for this episode ofTherapy, Coaching, and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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