January 21, 2026 • 27 mins
We explore the STIR framework and answer a listener’s question about whether the goal is to stand in the center of all four styles, or to use each style wisely. We map how to grow in a resistant environment, when leaving is healthy, and how to set boundaries without turning conflict into a scorecard.
• STIR overview and the four styles
• Standing in the middle versus using what you need when you need it
• Opposites attract and the strain of those differences
• Finding your natural spot by noticing who annoys or attracts you
• Borrowing other styles without abandoning your base
• Growing when family systems resist change
• Stay or leave decisions and the role of likability
• Boundaries that are clean, not covert demands
• Taking conflict less personally and naming projections
If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
Listen
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:13):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelly and I'm yourco-host along here with Jim
Shale.
Good to have you here, Jim.
Good morning, Dee.
How are you?
Doing great.
We've been spending a fewepisodes answering some of the
questions that some of ourlisteners have sent in.
Love it.
Primarily just one listener.
(00:37):
We're thankful for that.
SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
We we are.
One listener with lots ofpersonalities.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
But I will say that one of the questions that came
in, we've had a few episodeswhere we've referenced our
listener, Larry, and thequestion was, who is Larry?
So probably important to clarifythat Larry is an older brother
of yours that has gone with us,or maybe I should say I've gone
with the two of you on somefour-wheel trail riding trips.
(01:10):
And sometimes Larry sits in theback and listens to us kind of
do what we do on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
So and as he says, he finds it interesting at
times.
So but I'm not sure.
I I'm not sure if he's listenedto our podcast or not at this
point.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
So since he was our first audience.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Yes, absolutely.
We need to, you know.
Kind of pay tribute to him.
Appreciate that, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:36):
Yeah.
Well, here's one of thequestions that came in, and I
think it's a good one.
We've talked about these fourpersonality styles, and we've
referenced the acronym STIR torepresent the stabilizer
personality style, thetransformer, excuse me, the
initiator and uh the responder.
And the person asked, theyplaced it in kind of a visual.
(01:59):
They said, if I had this diagramon the ground kind of like a
four-square, is that what you'retalking about, where there are
these different personalitystyles laid out?
But the question that goes withthat is, is our goal to
eventually have the lines erasedbetween the four quadrants?
(02:22):
Well, that's a great question.
Yeah.
So that they all kind of blendtogether, if that's even
possible.
Or is it to stand in the middle?
And is that even possible tostand in the middle of all four?
And so I think they were asking,using that visual, what is it
that a person is trying toaccomplish when they learn about
this and are trying to put itinto practice?
(02:43):
So let's talk a little bit aboutthat, because it's a great
question.
It is a good question.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Oh, I mean, the larger question that popped in
was like, what's the greatergoal of living?
It's like what's the is it is itto be, you know, the cliche
phrase your best self?
Well, what does that mean?
Well, using our framework, yourbest self may include the
(03:09):
ability to really not notneurotically need people, but to
really want people becauseyou're aware of your own, your
own needs, your own, your owndynamics enough to be able to
own that.
So for me, it really does comedown to the self-discovery of
saying, okay, as best I canunderstand who I am and what do
(03:29):
I need, what am I projecting,what you know, all of those kind
of dynamics and understanding itbetter so I can say, okay, I can
be really helpful in thissituation, or I don't need to be
helpful here, just to be muchmore aware of the the the inner
dynamics of of of interactingwith humans in that sense.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
I think that the visual that the listener
describes.
I think the visual is greatbecause that's I think it's an
appropriate visual of what weare talking about.
But if I were to play that outin kind of a scenario, I imagine
that let's use Transformers asan example.
If they are in this upper rightquadrant, there is part of that
(04:14):
quadrant that is closer to thecenter, and there's part of that
quadrant that is all the way outat the far extreme point of that
quadrant.
And the reason I say that isbecause I think that there are
transformers who fall indifferent places on this graph
or spectrum.
(04:35):
And so somebody who's out onthat far corner just raised
awareness that they are kind ofthe transformer to the extreme,
helps them begin to see how thenthey might relate with others.
But to imagine them going to theopposite extreme as a stabilizer
(04:57):
probably would create suchdiscomfort and incongruence that
that's not a realistic goal forsome who would be in that place
as a transformer.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
It's like uh the more differenta couple is, the harder it is to
integrate their relationship.
I mean, in the beginning, itit's natural because you know,
opposites attract and and andthat all that.
But dynamically, if if I reallyam a transformer and uh and the
other person's really astabilizer, if you don't
(05:27):
appreciate those differences andyou expect the other person to
move more towards you, yeah,which is what you're basically
talking about, yeah, that'sthat's going to be a really
interesting struggle.
Yeah.
I do think to your point, it'simportant to identify naturally
how ex how where you positionyourself.
unknown (05:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
So if I if I like to think that I'm not an extreme
transformer, to use yourexample, and I keep thinking
that I bring order to things,and my that my partner never,
never sees that, well then I'min some kind of suspended
reality when it comes to my ownmy own stuff.
That's why being more realisticin in asking people how do you
perceive me, that partner wouldprobably say, Well, yeah, you
(06:12):
you don't you don't bring orderto anything.
You just live by your wits.
No, I don't.
And then you start the argument.
And that's why I always use thethe analogy of look who you're
attracted to.
You're in a relationship withsomeone who's a strong
stabilizer.
That alone tells you you'rereally extreme in that area.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
Yeah, that is a great that's a like if you're
kind of following the clues ofwho you are.
Yes.
Paying attention, payingattention to the people that
you're attracted to or that justshow up in your life.
Or that know, or that annoy you.
That's probably even a betterone.
(06:54):
And and probably important forthose who are at an extreme
because they will be moreannoyed than people that are
closer to the center of sorts.
You talk about maybe moredifficult if you are paired up
in relationship with somebodywho is very, very different than
you.
(07:14):
But I also find that somebodywho's willing to explore, if
they have somebody close to themwho is a significant contrast to
who they are, they begin tocatch on to the model more
rapidly.
And it's like an aha moment whenyou go, oh, that's why we keep
coming to this impasse, orthat's why we keep having this
(07:36):
stress in our marriage.
Sometimes the more subtleconflicts uh are a little more
nuanced in those differences.
And it takes a person a while tokind of appreciate the
differences and why they'rethere.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Oh, yeah.
No, you're you're being verykind.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Take it deeper.
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Yeah.
Well, in the sense that, youknow, the way you framed it a
couple seconds ago when yousaid, you know, you get to a
place where, oh, those peopleare really, really trying to
teach me something.
Yeah, you have to be you have toyou have to be at a place where
you really are ready to hearthat because you're seeing it
yourself in some ways.
Because if not, you thinkthey're trying to change you or
(08:15):
defeat you or whatever.
But if you have a hint that thatperson keeps showing up in my
life, you already are at a apretty evolved place to notice
that.
Lots of times you don't havethat thought.
You're just like, be thesepeople keep telling it just
annoy me.
That's a that's usually the mostcommon way.
It's like I'm just annoyed bythese people.
That's the transition is torealize, well, they probably
(08:36):
have a trait that you're notseeing in yourself.
Yeah.
But to get it Oh, that's so hardto hear.
It is, because you're prettyoptimistic by nature, and so
you're gonna see that moreeasily than others would.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
So let's go back to the question.
For somebody who is reallyworking on this self-awareness,
and they're by out not onlytheir own opinion, but outside
opinions, they're being prettyhonest about themselves, pretty
realistic.
Is the goal different foreveryone?
(09:09):
Like it it's it's it's certainlynot the goal for everyone to
land in the center of all ofthis, if that's even possible.
But it certainly is a goal totap into these different
energies we have within us thatare less developed than what our
primary style is, so that whenthe situation or circumstance is
(09:31):
right, we can access that and dothings we never thought possible
because we've accessed that partof us.
I'm thinking of a couple oflisteners whose journey has led
them to identify themselves in aparticular quadrant.
And if I'm using that imagery oflike a four-square on the on the
ground and where it would bethat they would want to stand, I
(09:54):
feel like that when I'mvisualizing that for people with
whom I work, it is to movecloser to the center to
appreciate the other personalitystyles that they can access,
like they can reach out and drawon that energy, but they are
also living into kind of anatural bent that they have.
(10:18):
So if there is someone that is atrue nurturer, I I don't know
that I've ever seen somebodychange from being a nurturer to
being something else as aprimary style because it's so
woven into that characteristic,that that personality.
But I have seen somebody who's anurturer that begins to use
(10:40):
their initiating energy to takecare of themselves, begins to
step out of the kind of thestatic energy and do things that
are more dynamic, like thetransformer, or tap into the
organizational side, even thoughthat's a more natural fit for a
responder, but to do it with adifferent intent, like more of a
(11:04):
social justice intent orsomething like that.
So I have seen that kind ofshift taken place, but I'm
trying to think of individualsor myself, have I ever shifted
and for a period of my lifeactually been a different style.
And I don't think that once thatpersonality is formed, that you
actually step into a differentquadrant and lead a different
(11:26):
style.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Aaron Ross Powell No, I don't think you do that,
but I do think that you step indifferent quadrants and use the
energies in connection withothers.
For a season.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Like I if I'm a responder, I can step into
bringing order to somebodybecause I'm taking care of them.
So I can go in and help someoneclean up their house or do
whatever because my responder iscaring for them, but it really
is accessing the stabilizer.
And so I think that's where,again, another framework for
people to identify the abilityto do that is to see them when
(12:03):
they use their natural traits inhelping someone else, like a
transformer who goes in andhelps someone think outside the
box.
Okay, they're accessing theirnatural energy, but they're also
helping the other person accessthe transformer energy in them.
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
And and they, in many ways, they do it as a
caregiver responder.
They're caring for theindividual.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
I think the uh the thing that I I want to impress
is that using all these dynamicsthat you have day to day in your
life, the more you becomeconscious of this framework, the
easier it is to see how you'reusing them in different ways
that you don't realize you'redoing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
Okay, so I'm going to shift just a little bit to
another question, but it fitsvery closely.
It's in the same ballpark.
In this journey of integrationand self-awareness, it seems
like it would be very doable ina vacuum.
From this is what the question,how the question came to me.
Very doable in a vacuum.
But if you're an environmentthat's not conducive to health
(13:11):
itself, if you're an environmentthat's kind of has blockages to
integration because the peoplein your, let's say your family
system, or it could be a workenvironment as well, but are
pretty set in their patterns.
How do you put into practicesome of these things when the
(13:32):
environment is not particularlyconducive to integration?
And my initial response to thatis that's probably the situation
for many people when they cometo therapy or coaching, is that
they're struggling with whattheir environment is like.
Yeah, I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
No, you you're right.
That's that is the challenge.
A lot of people will come in andthey'll describe a partner who
have certain traits and they'rethey're very exasperated by it
all.
And they don't they don't wantto separate or leave that
relationship.
They want to learn how to livewith it.
And the simple, the the reallycasual answer would be what we
(14:16):
talked about, I think, in one ofthe episodes is it's like if
you're dealing with someone whohas really strong narcissistic
traits, you have to become morenarcissistic.
SPEAKER_02 (14:25):
So take care of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
Yeah, to take care of yourself.
So really it is it it is tryingto detach without detaching.
So I I begin to take care ofmyself.
I I go to concerts by myself, II do these things by myself, not
because I'm trying to make amess, give a message or I'm
upset, just because I I reallywant to share my life with this
(14:46):
person, but they're reallydifficult and they don't want to
do it, we don't have commoninterests, and I keep I keep
wanting that.
So then you really have tointernalize and go, okay, I
don't what's your goal?
I mean, if you don't want toseparate the relationship and
you want to stay in it, yeah,then you have to access a lot of
these different energies.
SPEAKER_02 (15:08):
Great description.
Let's go back to the otherapproach, and that is leaving
the relationship.
Is that okay?
Or is that just avoidant?
That was literally the questionthat came in with this person.
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
That clarify uh you have to clarify what your goal
is.
If you really are done with arelationship, no matter what
kind of dance we try to teachpeople to do with these
expressions, you're still goingto be frustrated.
If if the likability factor isreally kind of non-existent in
the relationship, for me, thelikability factor is crucial to
(15:48):
being able to be motivated to doit.
Because if you do it, you'rejust gonna res you create a
ground where you just resent.
Even though you could talk aboutit and say, I really want to do
this, I don't want to separate,I don't want to mess up the
family, I don't want the kids,whatever that that other part
is, you have to be veryconscious about that.
And you can still work it.
But if you're resenting andyou're working so hard, I mean
(16:10):
lots of people come in and say,I work so hard at this, but it
doesn't make any difference.
Well, they're still wanting anexternal change.
So from that perspective, it'sit, you know, it's an individual
journey for everybody.
It's like, what's the tippingpoint to where it's more
challenging to stay than it isto leave?
And it's a sobering place to be.
SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
Yeah.
And part of that equation has toinclude an honest evaluation of
where the other person is inthat relationship.
Are they invested in trying tomake the relationship healthier?
Are they even invested instaying?
Has that separation alreadyhappened and you're just now
realizing it?
(16:50):
And what does that look like?
So I I don't I I think the shortanswer is sometimes leaving is
the right choice.
And it's not avoidance.
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I'd say what it's the choice
that makes the most sense giventhe dynamic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
But let's say we do want to stay and we have in
relationship, maybe it's afamily system, some tensions
between personality styles.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
You're talking about a like a committed relationship,
or are you just talking aboutextended family dynamics that
you may see people occasionallythroughout the year or you live
close to?
Great question.
SPEAKER_02 (17:27):
Let's say we're talking specifically about the
nuclear family.
So two parents, a couple ofkids, and all kids, young kids.
Let's say that they are juniorhigh and senior high.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (17:41):
And the presenting issue is it feels chaotic.
We keep having these conflicts.
And the person who is coming iswilling to step into any kind of
questions or discussion, but hasnot come in with the rest of the
(18:02):
family.
So there is this interaction onhow then do I navigate my part
in this?
And so let's say it's one of theparents that's come in, it's not
the teen.
It's one of the parents.
Some handles, some steps.
Where do you begin with that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
So the scenario is the parent that's coming, the
parent that's coming in isliving with someone who's
willing to change change, butisn't coming to therapy or is it
coming to the sessions?
Yeah.
Good.
Yes.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (18:33):
And why I guess my question is, why aren't they
coming?
Okay, I'm gonna have to make upsomething here because I don't
know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Uh Well, that if if if I'm willing to if I'm uh if
I'm willing, but not going notgoing to therapy, it's either I
don't think it's I don't thinkit'll work, or I'm just giving
lip service to the to the ideaof change.
And so, yeah, my partner's goingto therapy and yeah, I'm willing
to change.
Yeah, go see what the guy says,or whatever, whatever that is.
(19:02):
That's not that's not unusual,but it's not the norm.
So I'd have to challenge theperson that's coming to see me.
Are you accurately reading thesituation?
Or is this person just kind ofgoing along with it because they
don't want to they don't want tobe divorced or they don't want
to lose the relationship?
And and to the extent of howentrenched the other person's
(19:24):
dysfunction is.
Because usually if there's aperson that's pretty
dysfunctional, I'm dysfunctionalin my response to them.
So I'm going to therapy to tryto learn how to handle this
person who's dysfunctionalbecause I become dysfunctional
myself, because I've gone to theother extreme.
So, regardless of what they do,I I have to live a different
life.
(19:44):
So then I set boundaries, Ibegin to speak up when I know
something's not fair or notappropriate.
Or the case in the case of kids,sometimes you have parenting
different parenting styles,one's more permissive.
And one's more rigid.
And so you had that conflict.
It's real I mean, the reason whyit sounds difficult is.
(20:08):
It's like you're trying to havea relationship with someone who
says they're they want to dobetter, but the evidence would
suggest that they they may notwant to, so do you do all the
hard work and then try not toresent the person who's not
actively involved in it?
I mean, I mean, the the the nicenice part of this theory is if
I'm committed to being tochange, and what I talked about,
(20:31):
I think, you know, in in ourlengthy season one, is that it's
a heart change.
If I literally don't need you tochange, and I can live with you
and accept you the way you areand truly do that, that's the
only way the other person maychange.
So if I if I can really accessall the expressions and I'm not
(20:52):
living with an incrediblydysfunctional person, but
they're they're okay and I likethem, then as I shift to, you
know what, I'm not gonna do yourlaundry anymore.
You take care of your laundry,and then and they and they step
up and do it.
Or I say, you know what, I'm notgonna do the whatever it is.
(21:12):
And and I don't, I'm not doingit because I'm mad at you, I'm
not doing it because uh, youknow, I I need you to be
different.
I just generally am starting toset better boundaries.
And that person steps up, well,then you know, okay, they don't
want to go to therapy, theydon't want to talk to anybody,
but they're gonna respond to youbeing healthier, a healthier
you.
That's very normal and veryusual in some situations.
(21:36):
So the person that's coming in,I'm I'm getting them to access
all those different expressionsand taking care of themselves,
and they still like theirpartner.
That's that's crucial.
If, on the other hand, someonecomes in and they're just at the
end of it and they're just sofrustrated and nothing ever
works, it's hard number one toget them to take care of
(21:58):
themselves and realize, okay,just do your thing, because if I
do that, they're typically doingit in a kind of a vengeful way.
They're not their their theirheart's not necessarily as soft
as it needs to be in some ways.
I don't know if I'm making thisclear enough, but it it all
depends on the that's why one ofmy first questions is, do you
(22:19):
guys still like each other?
Do you still like this person?
And that goes a long way inbeing able to say, okay, well
then I just need to be able tosay, if if he or she still likes
me, then I say I'm not going todo your laundry anymore.
They go, okay, that's cool, Ican do my laundry.
That begins to shift the theenergy and it gives you more
energy yourself because you'retaking care of yourself.
(22:41):
Yeah.
That's a long, long expression,but I'm not sure I answered
directly your question.
SPEAKER_02 (22:47):
But well, I think, yeah, if if I were to I'm not
trying to oversimplify at all,because I think all of those
components were essential, butbut part of that is the decision
that my next best step is towork toward my own health in the
(23:07):
midst of the relationship andsee how that plays out.
If that plays out in a way thatis likable and and tolerable,
then I keep moving toward thatnext step.
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Aaron Ross Powell My My 100,000 words turned into
six.
So yes, that would be that wouldbe it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
That's that was a good way to put it again.
And so as a follow-up to thatthen, as I'm moving toward a
healthier place, how do I enterinto conflict differently?
Like if if if there is likefrequent conflict in a
relationship, is there a a wayby which I receive conflict and
(23:48):
respond to conflict differentlyas it becoming more self-aware
and healthier?
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
Do I take it less personally?
Is that how I know I'm movingtoward health?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
That's the key ingredient.
It's not personal.
And when I make a choice and seta boundary, it's not personal
either.
The other person could feel thatway.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:09):
But even if they feel that way, I'm seeing if I'm
attuned to it, I'm beginning tosee the projection from the
other person that I don't haveto own because it's the other
person's stuff.
And it doesn't mean I'm mean orI yell at them for projecting.
It's just that I don't receiveit the same way.
Yeah.
(24:30):
Because I'm healthier.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Yes.
Okay.
Because I I'm setting we're sotempted to set limits for
everybody else or set boundariesfor everybody else, but not
ourselves.
And so where do I where do I endand you begin?
And so the more I I get centeredin that, the more I know I need
to be here, I need to be there,the more likely it is that I'm
not doing it to get even.
(24:51):
I'm not mad at you.
I'm just saying, no, I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna go to that
that that work event.
Um and you just are much morecertain about your limits.
And the whole thing is it's theattitude in your heart.
Are you are you doing it becauseyou're mad at the person or are
you doing it because that'shealthy for you?
An introvert who finally standsup and says, I just can't go to
(25:15):
that party.
That holiday party, just I justcan't do it.
And the and the spouse is likevery outgoing, and they go, I
can't uh I can't believe you.
Just go, it'll be fine, it'll befine.
No, I really can't go.
It just drains my energy.
That's where you start gettinghealthy.
And then the other extrovert hasto decide, okay, go to the party
and say, Yeah, my wife, youknow, she's an introvert, so she
(25:36):
doesn't want to come to theseparties anymore.
Yeah.
Because now it's entertainmentvalue for the for the extrovert.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
And that's why it it can get that's why being
conscious is so important,because then you begin to if you
do it that way, you obviouslyyou're not honoring your
partner's introverted style.
If you if you're honoring it,you go and say, no, it's she
couldn't make it tonight.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah.
Or something along the line ofthese things make her
uncomfortable, and I understandthat.
That's great.
Something that's just kind andhonest about the actuality of
the Trevor Burrus, if you can'tif you gain the permission from
the partner to do that.
Aaron Powell Oh, good point.
Good point.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Yeah.
So you're you're basicallyexposing them.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
And that should be their choice.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Yes.
Well, in an in an ideal worldthat you know I live in.
We've covered a lot ofquestions.
These are these are greatquestions that are just got so
many different tentacles to themand dynamics that I'm sure we've
we've left some things out.
But the journey is really thestir concept is to just become
(26:45):
as healthy as you can withinyourself, not trying to get
even, not trying to make apoint, but just simply being
healthy yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
And a good place to stop for this episode, but also
to remind our listeners ifyou've got a question, don't
hesitate to go to either one ofour websites and we love the
questions.
Yeah.
Send off a note to us.
We'll jump back into this nextepisode next week.
Jim, always great to be withyou.
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
Better to be with you.
Yeah.
See you, buddy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
Bye.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelly and I'm yourco-host along here with Jim
Shale.
Good to have you here, Jim.
Good morning, Dee.
How are you?
Doing great.
We've been spending a fewepisodes answering some of the
questions that some of ourlisteners have sent in.
Love it.
Primarily just one listener.
(00:37):
We're thankful for that.
SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
We we are.
One listener with lots ofpersonalities.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
But I will say that one of the questions that came
in, we've had a few episodeswhere we've referenced our
listener, Larry, and thequestion was, who is Larry?
So probably important to clarifythat Larry is an older brother
of yours that has gone with us,or maybe I should say I've gone
with the two of you on somefour-wheel trail riding trips.
(01:10):
And sometimes Larry sits in theback and listens to us kind of
do what we do on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
So and as he says, he finds it interesting at
times.
So but I'm not sure.
I I'm not sure if he's listenedto our podcast or not at this
point.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
So since he was our first audience.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Yes, absolutely.
We need to, you know.
Kind of pay tribute to him.
Appreciate that, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:36):
Yeah.
Well, here's one of thequestions that came in, and I
think it's a good one.
We've talked about these fourpersonality styles, and we've
referenced the acronym STIR torepresent the stabilizer
personality style, thetransformer, excuse me, the
initiator and uh the responder.
And the person asked, theyplaced it in kind of a visual.
(01:59):
They said, if I had this diagramon the ground kind of like a
four-square, is that what you'retalking about, where there are
these different personalitystyles laid out?
But the question that goes withthat is, is our goal to
eventually have the lines erasedbetween the four quadrants?
(02:22):
Well, that's a great question.
Yeah.
So that they all kind of blendtogether, if that's even
possible.
Or is it to stand in the middle?
And is that even possible tostand in the middle of all four?
And so I think they were asking,using that visual, what is it
that a person is trying toaccomplish when they learn about
this and are trying to put itinto practice?
(02:43):
So let's talk a little bit aboutthat, because it's a great
question.
It is a good question.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Oh, I mean, the larger question that popped in
was like, what's the greatergoal of living?
It's like what's the is it is itto be, you know, the cliche
phrase your best self?
Well, what does that mean?
Well, using our framework, yourbest self may include the
(03:09):
ability to really not notneurotically need people, but to
really want people becauseyou're aware of your own, your
own needs, your own, your owndynamics enough to be able to
own that.
So for me, it really does comedown to the self-discovery of
saying, okay, as best I canunderstand who I am and what do
(03:29):
I need, what am I projecting,what you know, all of those kind
of dynamics and understanding itbetter so I can say, okay, I can
be really helpful in thissituation, or I don't need to be
helpful here, just to be muchmore aware of the the the inner
dynamics of of of interactingwith humans in that sense.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
I think that the visual that the listener
describes.
I think the visual is greatbecause that's I think it's an
appropriate visual of what weare talking about.
But if I were to play that outin kind of a scenario, I imagine
that let's use Transformers asan example.
If they are in this upper rightquadrant, there is part of that
(04:14):
quadrant that is closer to thecenter, and there's part of that
quadrant that is all the way outat the far extreme point of that
quadrant.
And the reason I say that isbecause I think that there are
transformers who fall indifferent places on this graph
or spectrum.
(04:35):
And so somebody who's out onthat far corner just raised
awareness that they are kind ofthe transformer to the extreme,
helps them begin to see how thenthey might relate with others.
But to imagine them going to theopposite extreme as a stabilizer
(04:57):
probably would create suchdiscomfort and incongruence that
that's not a realistic goal forsome who would be in that place
as a transformer.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
It's like uh the more differenta couple is, the harder it is to
integrate their relationship.
I mean, in the beginning, itit's natural because you know,
opposites attract and and andthat all that.
But dynamically, if if I reallyam a transformer and uh and the
other person's really astabilizer, if you don't
(05:27):
appreciate those differences andyou expect the other person to
move more towards you, yeah,which is what you're basically
talking about, yeah, that'sthat's going to be a really
interesting struggle.
Yeah.
I do think to your point, it'simportant to identify naturally
how ex how where you positionyourself.
unknown (05:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
So if I if I like to think that I'm not an extreme
transformer, to use yourexample, and I keep thinking
that I bring order to things,and my that my partner never,
never sees that, well then I'min some kind of suspended
reality when it comes to my ownmy own stuff.
That's why being more realisticin in asking people how do you
perceive me, that partner wouldprobably say, Well, yeah, you
(06:12):
you don't you don't bring orderto anything.
You just live by your wits.
No, I don't.
And then you start the argument.
And that's why I always use thethe analogy of look who you're
attracted to.
You're in a relationship withsomeone who's a strong
stabilizer.
That alone tells you you'rereally extreme in that area.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
Yeah, that is a great that's a like if you're
kind of following the clues ofwho you are.
Yes.
Paying attention, payingattention to the people that
you're attracted to or that justshow up in your life.
Or that know, or that annoy you.
That's probably even a betterone.
(06:54):
And and probably important forthose who are at an extreme
because they will be moreannoyed than people that are
closer to the center of sorts.
You talk about maybe moredifficult if you are paired up
in relationship with somebodywho is very, very different than
you.
(07:14):
But I also find that somebodywho's willing to explore, if
they have somebody close to themwho is a significant contrast to
who they are, they begin tocatch on to the model more
rapidly.
And it's like an aha moment whenyou go, oh, that's why we keep
coming to this impasse, orthat's why we keep having this
(07:36):
stress in our marriage.
Sometimes the more subtleconflicts uh are a little more
nuanced in those differences.
And it takes a person a while tokind of appreciate the
differences and why they'rethere.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Oh, yeah.
No, you're you're being verykind.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Take it deeper.
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Yeah.
Well, in the sense that, youknow, the way you framed it a
couple seconds ago when yousaid, you know, you get to a
place where, oh, those peopleare really, really trying to
teach me something.
Yeah, you have to be you have toyou have to be at a place where
you really are ready to hearthat because you're seeing it
yourself in some ways.
Because if not, you thinkthey're trying to change you or
(08:15):
defeat you or whatever.
But if you have a hint that thatperson keeps showing up in my
life, you already are at a apretty evolved place to notice
that.
Lots of times you don't havethat thought.
You're just like, be thesepeople keep telling it just
annoy me.
That's a that's usually the mostcommon way.
It's like I'm just annoyed bythese people.
That's the transition is torealize, well, they probably
(08:36):
have a trait that you're notseeing in yourself.
Yeah.
But to get it Oh, that's so hardto hear.
It is, because you're prettyoptimistic by nature, and so
you're gonna see that moreeasily than others would.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
So let's go back to the question.
For somebody who is reallyworking on this self-awareness,
and they're by out not onlytheir own opinion, but outside
opinions, they're being prettyhonest about themselves, pretty
realistic.
Is the goal different foreveryone?
(09:09):
Like it it's it's it's certainlynot the goal for everyone to
land in the center of all ofthis, if that's even possible.
But it certainly is a goal totap into these different
energies we have within us thatare less developed than what our
primary style is, so that whenthe situation or circumstance is
(09:31):
right, we can access that and dothings we never thought possible
because we've accessed that partof us.
I'm thinking of a couple oflisteners whose journey has led
them to identify themselves in aparticular quadrant.
And if I'm using that imagery oflike a four-square on the on the
ground and where it would bethat they would want to stand, I
(09:54):
feel like that when I'mvisualizing that for people with
whom I work, it is to movecloser to the center to
appreciate the other personalitystyles that they can access,
like they can reach out and drawon that energy, but they are
also living into kind of anatural bent that they have.
(10:18):
So if there is someone that is atrue nurturer, I I don't know
that I've ever seen somebodychange from being a nurturer to
being something else as aprimary style because it's so
woven into that characteristic,that that personality.
But I have seen somebody who's anurturer that begins to use
(10:40):
their initiating energy to takecare of themselves, begins to
step out of the kind of thestatic energy and do things that
are more dynamic, like thetransformer, or tap into the
organizational side, even thoughthat's a more natural fit for a
responder, but to do it with adifferent intent, like more of a
(11:04):
social justice intent orsomething like that.
So I have seen that kind ofshift taken place, but I'm
trying to think of individualsor myself, have I ever shifted
and for a period of my lifeactually been a different style.
And I don't think that once thatpersonality is formed, that you
actually step into a differentquadrant and lead a different
(11:26):
style.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Aaron Ross Powell No, I don't think you do that,
but I do think that you step indifferent quadrants and use the
energies in connection withothers.
For a season.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Like I if I'm a responder, I can step into
bringing order to somebodybecause I'm taking care of them.
So I can go in and help someoneclean up their house or do
whatever because my responder iscaring for them, but it really
is accessing the stabilizer.
And so I think that's where,again, another framework for
people to identify the abilityto do that is to see them when
(12:03):
they use their natural traits inhelping someone else, like a
transformer who goes in andhelps someone think outside the
box.
Okay, they're accessing theirnatural energy, but they're also
helping the other person accessthe transformer energy in them.
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
And and they, in many ways, they do it as a
caregiver responder.
They're caring for theindividual.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
I think the uh the thing that I I want to impress
is that using all these dynamicsthat you have day to day in your
life, the more you becomeconscious of this framework, the
easier it is to see how you'reusing them in different ways
that you don't realize you'redoing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
Okay, so I'm going to shift just a little bit to
another question, but it fitsvery closely.
It's in the same ballpark.
In this journey of integrationand self-awareness, it seems
like it would be very doable ina vacuum.
From this is what the question,how the question came to me.
Very doable in a vacuum.
But if you're an environmentthat's not conducive to health
(13:11):
itself, if you're an environmentthat's kind of has blockages to
integration because the peoplein your, let's say your family
system, or it could be a workenvironment as well, but are
pretty set in their patterns.
How do you put into practicesome of these things when the
(13:32):
environment is not particularlyconducive to integration?
And my initial response to thatis that's probably the situation
for many people when they cometo therapy or coaching, is that
they're struggling with whattheir environment is like.
Yeah, I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
No, you you're right.
That's that is the challenge.
A lot of people will come in andthey'll describe a partner who
have certain traits and they'rethey're very exasperated by it
all.
And they don't they don't wantto separate or leave that
relationship.
They want to learn how to livewith it.
And the simple, the the reallycasual answer would be what we
(14:16):
talked about, I think, in one ofthe episodes is it's like if
you're dealing with someone whohas really strong narcissistic
traits, you have to become morenarcissistic.
SPEAKER_02 (14:25):
So take care of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
Yeah, to take care of yourself.
So really it is it it is tryingto detach without detaching.
So I I begin to take care ofmyself.
I I go to concerts by myself, II do these things by myself, not
because I'm trying to make amess, give a message or I'm
upset, just because I I reallywant to share my life with this
(14:46):
person, but they're reallydifficult and they don't want to
do it, we don't have commoninterests, and I keep I keep
wanting that.
So then you really have tointernalize and go, okay, I
don't what's your goal?
I mean, if you don't want toseparate the relationship and
you want to stay in it, yeah,then you have to access a lot of
these different energies.
SPEAKER_02 (15:08):
Great description.
Let's go back to the otherapproach, and that is leaving
the relationship.
Is that okay?
Or is that just avoidant?
That was literally the questionthat came in with this person.
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
That clarify uh you have to clarify what your goal
is.
If you really are done with arelationship, no matter what
kind of dance we try to teachpeople to do with these
expressions, you're still goingto be frustrated.
If if the likability factor isreally kind of non-existent in
the relationship, for me, thelikability factor is crucial to
(15:48):
being able to be motivated to doit.
Because if you do it, you'rejust gonna res you create a
ground where you just resent.
Even though you could talk aboutit and say, I really want to do
this, I don't want to separate,I don't want to mess up the
family, I don't want the kids,whatever that that other part
is, you have to be veryconscious about that.
And you can still work it.
But if you're resenting andyou're working so hard, I mean
(16:10):
lots of people come in and say,I work so hard at this, but it
doesn't make any difference.
Well, they're still wanting anexternal change.
So from that perspective, it'sit, you know, it's an individual
journey for everybody.
It's like, what's the tippingpoint to where it's more
challenging to stay than it isto leave?
And it's a sobering place to be.
SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
Yeah.
And part of that equation has toinclude an honest evaluation of
where the other person is inthat relationship.
Are they invested in trying tomake the relationship healthier?
Are they even invested instaying?
Has that separation alreadyhappened and you're just now
realizing it?
(16:50):
And what does that look like?
So I I don't I I think the shortanswer is sometimes leaving is
the right choice.
And it's not avoidance.
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I'd say what it's the choice
that makes the most sense giventhe dynamic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
But let's say we do want to stay and we have in
relationship, maybe it's afamily system, some tensions
between personality styles.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
You're talking about a like a committed relationship,
or are you just talking aboutextended family dynamics that
you may see people occasionallythroughout the year or you live
close to?
Great question.
SPEAKER_02 (17:27):
Let's say we're talking specifically about the
nuclear family.
So two parents, a couple ofkids, and all kids, young kids.
Let's say that they are juniorhigh and senior high.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (17:41):
And the presenting issue is it feels chaotic.
We keep having these conflicts.
And the person who is coming iswilling to step into any kind of
questions or discussion, but hasnot come in with the rest of the
(18:02):
family.
So there is this interaction onhow then do I navigate my part
in this?
And so let's say it's one of theparents that's come in, it's not
the teen.
It's one of the parents.
Some handles, some steps.
Where do you begin with that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
So the scenario is the parent that's coming, the
parent that's coming in isliving with someone who's
willing to change change, butisn't coming to therapy or is it
coming to the sessions?
Yeah.
Good.
Yes.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (18:33):
And why I guess my question is, why aren't they
coming?
Okay, I'm gonna have to make upsomething here because I don't
know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Uh Well, that if if if I'm willing to if I'm uh if
I'm willing, but not going notgoing to therapy, it's either I
don't think it's I don't thinkit'll work, or I'm just giving
lip service to the to the ideaof change.
And so, yeah, my partner's goingto therapy and yeah, I'm willing
to change.
Yeah, go see what the guy says,or whatever, whatever that is.
(19:02):
That's not that's not unusual,but it's not the norm.
So I'd have to challenge theperson that's coming to see me.
Are you accurately reading thesituation?
Or is this person just kind ofgoing along with it because they
don't want to they don't want tobe divorced or they don't want
to lose the relationship?
And and to the extent of howentrenched the other person's
(19:24):
dysfunction is.
Because usually if there's aperson that's pretty
dysfunctional, I'm dysfunctionalin my response to them.
So I'm going to therapy to tryto learn how to handle this
person who's dysfunctionalbecause I become dysfunctional
myself, because I've gone to theother extreme.
So, regardless of what they do,I I have to live a different
life.
(19:44):
So then I set boundaries, Ibegin to speak up when I know
something's not fair or notappropriate.
Or the case in the case of kids,sometimes you have parenting
different parenting styles,one's more permissive.
And one's more rigid.
And so you had that conflict.
It's real I mean, the reason whyit sounds difficult is.
(20:08):
It's like you're trying to havea relationship with someone who
says they're they want to dobetter, but the evidence would
suggest that they they may notwant to, so do you do all the
hard work and then try not toresent the person who's not
actively involved in it?
I mean, I mean, the the the nicenice part of this theory is if
I'm committed to being tochange, and what I talked about,
(20:31):
I think, you know, in in ourlengthy season one, is that it's
a heart change.
If I literally don't need you tochange, and I can live with you
and accept you the way you areand truly do that, that's the
only way the other person maychange.
So if I if I can really accessall the expressions and I'm not
(20:52):
living with an incrediblydysfunctional person, but
they're they're okay and I likethem, then as I shift to, you
know what, I'm not gonna do yourlaundry anymore.
You take care of your laundry,and then and they and they step
up and do it.
Or I say, you know what, I'm notgonna do the whatever it is.
(21:12):
And and I don't, I'm not doingit because I'm mad at you, I'm
not doing it because uh, youknow, I I need you to be
different.
I just generally am starting toset better boundaries.
And that person steps up, well,then you know, okay, they don't
want to go to therapy, theydon't want to talk to anybody,
but they're gonna respond to youbeing healthier, a healthier
you.
That's very normal and veryusual in some situations.
(21:36):
So the person that's coming in,I'm I'm getting them to access
all those different expressionsand taking care of themselves,
and they still like theirpartner.
That's that's crucial.
If, on the other hand, someonecomes in and they're just at the
end of it and they're just sofrustrated and nothing ever
works, it's hard number one toget them to take care of
(21:58):
themselves and realize, okay,just do your thing, because if I
do that, they're typically doingit in a kind of a vengeful way.
They're not their their theirheart's not necessarily as soft
as it needs to be in some ways.
I don't know if I'm making thisclear enough, but it it all
depends on the that's why one ofmy first questions is, do you
(22:19):
guys still like each other?
Do you still like this person?
And that goes a long way inbeing able to say, okay, well
then I just need to be able tosay, if if he or she still likes
me, then I say I'm not going todo your laundry anymore.
They go, okay, that's cool, Ican do my laundry.
That begins to shift the theenergy and it gives you more
energy yourself because you'retaking care of yourself.
(22:41):
Yeah.
That's a long, long expression,but I'm not sure I answered
directly your question.
SPEAKER_02 (22:47):
But well, I think, yeah, if if I were to I'm not
trying to oversimplify at all,because I think all of those
components were essential, butbut part of that is the decision
that my next best step is towork toward my own health in the
(23:07):
midst of the relationship andsee how that plays out.
If that plays out in a way thatis likable and and tolerable,
then I keep moving toward thatnext step.
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Aaron Ross Powell My My 100,000 words turned into
six.
So yes, that would be that wouldbe it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
That's that was a good way to put it again.
And so as a follow-up to thatthen, as I'm moving toward a
healthier place, how do I enterinto conflict differently?
Like if if if there is likefrequent conflict in a
relationship, is there a a wayby which I receive conflict and
(23:48):
respond to conflict differentlyas it becoming more self-aware
and healthier?
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
Do I take it less personally?
Is that how I know I'm movingtoward health?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
That's the key ingredient.
It's not personal.
And when I make a choice and seta boundary, it's not personal
either.
The other person could feel thatway.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:09):
But even if they feel that way, I'm seeing if I'm
attuned to it, I'm beginning tosee the projection from the
other person that I don't haveto own because it's the other
person's stuff.
And it doesn't mean I'm mean orI yell at them for projecting.
It's just that I don't receiveit the same way.
Yeah.
(24:30):
Because I'm healthier.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Yes.
Okay.
Because I I'm setting we're sotempted to set limits for
everybody else or set boundariesfor everybody else, but not
ourselves.
And so where do I where do I endand you begin?
And so the more I I get centeredin that, the more I know I need
to be here, I need to be there,the more likely it is that I'm
not doing it to get even.
(24:51):
I'm not mad at you.
I'm just saying, no, I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna go to that
that that work event.
Um and you just are much morecertain about your limits.
And the whole thing is it's theattitude in your heart.
Are you are you doing it becauseyou're mad at the person or are
you doing it because that'shealthy for you?
An introvert who finally standsup and says, I just can't go to
(25:15):
that party.
That holiday party, just I justcan't do it.
And the and the spouse is likevery outgoing, and they go, I
can't uh I can't believe you.
Just go, it'll be fine, it'll befine.
No, I really can't go.
It just drains my energy.
That's where you start gettinghealthy.
And then the other extrovert hasto decide, okay, go to the party
and say, Yeah, my wife, youknow, she's an introvert, so she
(25:36):
doesn't want to come to theseparties anymore.
Yeah.
Because now it's entertainmentvalue for the for the extrovert.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
And that's why it it can get that's why being
conscious is so important,because then you begin to if you
do it that way, you obviouslyyou're not honoring your
partner's introverted style.
If you if you're honoring it,you go and say, no, it's she
couldn't make it tonight.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah.
Or something along the line ofthese things make her
uncomfortable, and I understandthat.
That's great.
Something that's just kind andhonest about the actuality of
the Trevor Burrus, if you can'tif you gain the permission from
the partner to do that.
Aaron Powell Oh, good point.
Good point.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Yeah.
So you're you're basicallyexposing them.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
And that should be their choice.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Yes.
Well, in an in an ideal worldthat you know I live in.
We've covered a lot ofquestions.
These are these are greatquestions that are just got so
many different tentacles to themand dynamics that I'm sure we've
we've left some things out.
But the journey is really thestir concept is to just become
(26:45):
as healthy as you can withinyourself, not trying to get
even, not trying to make apoint, but just simply being
healthy yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
And a good place to stop for this episode, but also
to remind our listeners ifyou've got a question, don't
hesitate to go to either one ofour websites and we love the
questions.
Yeah.
Send off a note to us.
We'll jump back into this nextepisode next week.
Jim, always great to be withyou.
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
Better to be with you.
Yeah.
See you, buddy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
Bye.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!