January 28, 2026 • 27 mins
We take listener questions on how to “preempt” midlife turmoil, why flexible thinking beats rumination, and what healthy self-sufficiency looks like when you still need people. Along the way we use our four-quadrant model to reframe boundaries, create validation, and speak your partner’s language.
• difference between liking change and flexible thinking
• turning beliefs back into opinions to reopen options
• borrowing strengths across initiator, responder, transformer, stabilizer
• replacing negative what-ifs with creative what-ifs
• acting versus ruminating when consequences are inevitable
• reframing self-sufficiency as interdependence
• appreciating traits you once resisted in others
• communicating in the other person’s language and validating emotions
• holding boundaries with strong personalities without becoming them
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:13):
Okay, welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in
Dreams.
I'm your co-host, D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shale.
We love to explore the innerlandscape of personality, and we
have been spending this seasonlooking at a model of
personality.
Hopefully, you've listenedenough that you have a working
knowledge of that.
And we've been taking somequestions, people who have been
(00:34):
curious about some of the thingsthat have been said and were
wanting us to go a little bitdeeper.
So hey, let's go deeper, D.
Let's go deeper, D.
Let's do that today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Thanks for your affirmation of that, Jim.
Well, no problem.
I just want to acknowledge thatI was here because you'd said
that my co-host and I hadn'tsaid anything, so I thought I
would just express that.
Let's go deeper.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
So sorry I didn't let you interject sooner.
Thank you.
Dig deeper with D.
I like that.
Yeah.
I'm not sure we need you thisepisode, Jim.
It was intended to be myepisode, but sure.
Okay, join in.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
We had an episode a couple weeks ago that was on
midlife.
It was midlife of vocation,midlife of relationships,
midlife of your journey.
And we discussed some of thethings that individuals face
during that midlife span, uh,the reevaluation that takes
place.
We had a listener who wasinterested in what it might be
(01:47):
like for us to talk about thosewho are not yet to midlife in a
relationship, in vocation, intheir age, and want to do some
things that raised awarenessfrom an episode like that.
But what are some of thepractices you put in place to
try and mediate the crisis thatcan occur at midlife?
(02:09):
And so just a response, acomment or two, if you're having
somebody that is just wanting toget healthier and kind of head
off that.
I'm not sure that you can stopit from coming.
But what are some of the thingsthat come to mind when somebody
asks a question like that, Jim?
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Yeah, my my casual initial response is along the
lines, you can't be you can't be40 when you're 30, you can't be
50 when you're 40.
So sometimes life unfolds.
The question uh seems to think,how can I anticipate the
possibilities of the future andbe prepared for them?
And I think from my perspective,if you're going to be that
(02:50):
proactive, you have to be prettyflexible in your in realizing
that there's gonna come traumasin your life, there's gonna come
unexpected things that arereally going to challenge you.
And so how can you prepare forthose things?
Well, uh one of the biggesthurdles is to realize that most
people don't escape this worldwithout something dramatic or
(03:12):
trump dramatic happening tothem.
And that helps develop theirapproach in some ways, as far
as, okay, how do I do I guess onwhat those might be?
Or do I just kind of realizethat, okay, things are going to
happen.
And do I have the flexibility inmy makeup to really be able to
adapt to it?
Like if I know my one of mytraits is I don't like change,
(03:35):
how do I begin to realize, okay,that might be an important trait
to work on?
And so again, it comes back alittle bit to self-awareness and
knowing yourself really well.
And that goes along with askingyour partner for that, asking
significant people in your lifefor their feedback to begin that
(03:56):
process.
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
So I think that's a great response.
I'd love you to go a little bitdeeper in something that you've
talked about before, and youjust briefly mentioned, and
that's flexibility, butspecifically flexible thinking.
So I think that that thatcharacteristic is different than
whether you're comfortable oruncomfortable with change.
(04:18):
You can have an approach to lifewhere you kind of like things
stable and are not alwaysseeking change, but still be
very flexible in your thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
That's true.
That's true.
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
So I know that that's a real key issue when
you're working with individualsor couples is flexible thinking.
So how does that often come upin a session?
W what are some of the cues thatyou see that cause you to say,
I'm this is a good time to bringit up?
And I know one of I'm gonna kindof set the stage for you, but
(04:52):
sometimes I know what you do iswhen somebody has a strong
opinion, you'll often articulatethe opposite view of that
argument.
And I think that that's part oftrying to develop a greater
flexible thinking in anindividual.
Am I right?
Or is that something else?
SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
It is.
There's a a a couple strategies.
One is if I sometimes I'll ask,what's the other what's the
other view of that, of thatthought that you have?
Is there another view of that?
And if they have a hard timewith that, then I'll I'll
perhaps introduce the idea thatperhaps that's a belief and not
(05:32):
an opinion.
And so then you wrestle, you getthem to wrestle with the idea
that in reality it's an opinion,but it's moved into kind of a
belief.
And so then I challenge that andsay, okay, let's examine that.
Is that really a belief?
I mean, can would you die forthat or you know, put it in some
dramatic terms to see, and lotsof times they'll back up and
(05:53):
say, well, I guess that maybe isan opinion.
And then you kind of push themand say, okay, what would be the
an opposite opinion of that?
And so you're just basicallytrying to do an exercise to see
how nimble they are to be ableto identify other ways of
thinking about something.
Which again, in the context ofyour own life, from my
perspective, it's crucial to beable to see different strategies
(06:15):
to be able to address issues inyour life.
Whether it's your spouse, yourpartner, or a work situation,
anything that's that's got youstuck, can you look at it from a
different perspective, whichwould go back to probably the
transformer energy of being opento new possibilities.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
So, yeah, back to that four quadrant model.
If you are self-aware of yourdefault style, one of the ways
you increase flexible thinkingis to consider what another
aspect of your personality,another style, how that might
(06:54):
change your response.
So if I am a responder and Itend to be that nurturer and
caregiver, what would it be liketo be an initiator?
I'm attracted to that, butusually I'm the caretaker for
that.
What's the perspective of theinitiator in me?
And just thinking that throughwill sometimes add to a flexible
(07:17):
way of viewing the world andviewing myself, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
Well, yeah.
Plus, plus, to use that example,the if you initiate self-care,
you would have to start focusingon taking care of yourself as
opposed to others.
And so the initiating aspectwould be maybe I start I need to
start working out or walking orexercising, something that I
would always put off because Iwas tending to other people.
(07:40):
That's how you would begin tothink, okay, the initiator in me
needs to do this.
And so, yes, that's that's theflexibility to say, okay, what
would that feel like?
For for a lot of people that arenatural responders, they
probably would identify that asfeeling selfish, putting
themselves first.
Because again, initiatorstypically can be viewed as
selfish because they initiatethings, they create change, and
(08:03):
it's all about them.
People on the outside that don'thave that natural energy would
critique them and basically say,see, it's all about them, when
really they just have a naturalway of being and hey, let's go
do that.
And and a lot of people wouldfollow it.
Other people would set back andcriticize it, you know.
Anytime you make a bold move,you've split the world in some
ways.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Yeah.
Well, that's a good point.
And whether it's the outer worldor the inner world.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
My latest example this week hasbeen I helped a person, a good
friend of mine, with her hotwater heater.
And they there's a rod that youput in a hot water heater to
keep it from corroding.
SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
And so I said that probably needs to be replaced.
But as usual, my transformer didnot think it through, like I
didn't hear it in my house whenI didn't shut the water off.
So, so I went to her house and Itook that plug out and boy,
water went everywhere.
And of course, she ended uphaving it a new hot water
heater.
(09:04):
So, so I say that's probably toopersonal, but I say that to say
you make a choice, thingshappen.
And you end up with theconsequences.
So, in it using our quadrants ofof expressions, my transformer
just said, Yep, gotta be done,let's go do it.
The stabilizer did not show upand say, Is the water turned
off?
(09:24):
Yeah.
And that's my my natural mynatural energy as a transformer
where I don't often think thinkthrough the consequences of
something.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
So I think that sometimes the ruminating over
what could happen when you talkabout midlife of a relationship
or vocation, that sometimes thattakes far more energy than just
trying to move to a place offlexible thinking and whatever
(09:55):
it is that comes, then youaddress it knowing that you have
the resources to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:01):
The ruminating, excuse me to uh to interrupt a
little bit, but the ruminatingis actually a false sense of
movement.
If I if I ruminate inside myhead, I can feel like I'm doing
something about it, but I'm notreally.
So to your point, which is agreat point, is that sometimes
(10:22):
just make a decision and do it.
And then realize there's gonnabe a consequence.
And you have no idea sometimeswhat it will be, no matter how
hard you prepare for it.
There's gonna be a consequence.
And that's why a lot of peoplethat that are stuck in the
stabilizer have a fear of makinga choice, because there's always
a consequence.
And they're usually they thinkit's gonna be a less than
(10:43):
positive one.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
Well, yeah.
Sometimes we say this is trueabout every personality style,
but maybe more so with thestabilizer, that the dysfunction
you know is far more appealingthan the possibility of health
that has the unknown.
That's so true.
And so we're back to that adageabout when stress levels go up,
(11:06):
you retreat to that which ismost familiar, no matter how
dysfunctional it is, becauseit's known.
You you know the quantity.
There are so many things thatcan happen.
And let's just use the midlifeof a relationship.
Early on in the relationship, Imean, it's just glorious because
there's attraction, there'sromance, there not all the
(11:26):
issues of life have settled inthat can cause problems within a
relationship.
It's really difficult to thinkahead and not be
catastrophizing.
I mean, it's almost as if that'swhat catastrophizing is, is
overthinking what could happenin the relationship, but instead
to take the posture of justenough realism that says, I know
(11:47):
this is one of those wonderfulphases.
I'm going to enjoy it, and Ihave enough flexible thinking
that when the difficult timescome, do our best to think
through and live through whattakes place.
So part of it is realisticallyliving in the moment, enjoying
the moment now, but beingrealistic about it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
One of the fascinating things.
I just lost my train of thought.
So it wasn't that fascinating.
Apologize.
(12:27):
I completely uh refresh refreshmy memory on what you were
saying because I had a reallygood thought.
We're talking about personality.
SPEAKER_02 (12:42):
And what it feels like to be older and forget
things.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Well, I think we have a live example of that
right now.
I had a I had a thought and itzoomed right out of my right out
of my head.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
We don't need to go back to it, but we were talking
about living in the moment andenjoying, but also being
realistic about what's coming.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Oh, no, no.
Thank you.
You reminded me.
Lots of times the the what-ifs,what ifs to the negative creates
anxiety.
But what ifs to the positivecreates new worlds.
So it really is how you use yourwhat-ifs.
And yes, the the typical thingis what ifs, what if this
happens?
What if this happens?
We catastrophize rather thanwhat if it works out?
(13:25):
Why do we go to the negative?
Well, it's probably moreprotective.
But to your point, theflexibility of thinking is,
well, what if it works out?
What if we can handle it?
What if the tire goes flat inthe middle of the of a trail and
we have no spare?
We'll just sit in the desert anddie.
No, we'll figure it out.
Yeah, we'll figure it out.
(13:46):
So I think that's really animportant uh way to navigate
flexible thinking is to say, doyou use your what-ifs to
catastrophize or to create a newworld?
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
I really, really like that.
I would add one last piece tothe discussion.
And that is part of beingrealistic is saying, I won't be
surprised if there comes a timewhen this job isn't as
satisfying.
I won't be surprised if we hit arough spot in our relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
That's addressing the the original question.
That's great.
Because that's exactly how youdo it.
It's like, can I stay adaptableand realize that it life never
turns out like we think most ofthe time?
I shouldn't say never and thenmost of the time together, but
it seems like it seems like lifereally doesn't turn out like we
think if if we have thosethoughts.
So that's a great way of summingit up.
SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
And it may lead me to new places that I'd never
experienced before that willtake me by surprise in a great
way.
You we talked quite a bit inthat episode about the midlife
of vocation, some of thedifficulties that you face in
that phase.
But it's also true that some ofthose struggles lead to new
places vocationally that youwould have never expected, new
(15:07):
opportunities or new decisionsthat you have to make to make
sense of your journey.
So yeah, great question fromlistener.
Um I think we have time foranother one if we could.
And that is a listener called inor yeah, called in and asked
about self-sufficiency.
Is health self-sufficiency?
(15:30):
And this person uh thinks thatthe answer to that is no.
Um and so followed it with ifnot, what is it like to need
others in a healthy way, anintegrated way?
So acknowledging that you reallydo need others in your life.
And I know there are some peoplewho are incredibly independent,
(15:53):
but what does that look like ina healthy way?
I I would be interested in whatyour thoughts are.
Well, one of the things is thatI'm not sure that the notion of
self-sufficiency is independentof needing or desiring or
wanting interactions with othersand needing things from others.
(16:13):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
It's kind of like interdependent.
Yeah, it's kind of likeinterdependency or dependency.
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Aaron Powell Oh, yeah, that is a good language to
use.
I think if we're looking atself-sufficiency as not needing
anyone else.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Yeah, no, that's it'd be interesting to how how
they're defin def definingself-sufficiency.
Because yeah, it doesn't meanyou're excluding everybody, but
it could.
It's like self-sufficiency, is Ilive on an island and don't need
anybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
Off off the grid and off the grid.
SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know that that'sself-sufficiency.
I think that's probably un toher to this person's point,
probably unhealthy.
But then how do you the wordneed is the interesting part of
that.
It's like, what's it feel liketo be self-sufficient and need
someone?
Well, it would be like, I need II'm moving and I can't do it by
(17:08):
myself.
I need help.
I need others to help me.
Now that's a terrible, terribleexample, probably, because a lot
of people get hit up for forbeing helping people move and
then they never talk to themagain.
So but you know, the point ofincluding other people in my
life, because I need thesocialization, I need the I need
the contact, the connections.
(17:30):
Yeah, those are those are reallyimportant.
And that that's not that's againinterdependencies.
There's there's a sense that weneed each other.
Or we want each other, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Yeah.
It's probably it'd be wonderfulif we had this person on the
line or included right now,because I'm gonna have to
interpret.
But let me add to where I thinkthis comes from.
We spent a great deal of time,maybe sprinkled throughout all
of the episodes, where we talkabout externalizing or
(18:01):
projecting things that arewithin us that are out of
balance or in need of beingaddressed.
And so we're attracted tosomebody in a relationship that
embodies some of the things inus that are undeveloped.
So we have promoted that amovement toward health is to
raise those things toconsciousness and to develop
(18:25):
that side of us so we're notdependent on a transformer to
give us the energy to float on.
Yes.
Or if we're a transformer, we'renot dependent upon a stabilizer
to give us structure andinsight.
And so when we do move towardthat healthier place, does it
mean that we're self-sufficientand no longer need the other
(18:48):
people in our life?
Or does it mean that we havegotten to a place where we have
far greater appreciation forthat side of us, which leads to
greater appreciation fordifferent perspectives that
others bring into our life?
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
That is excellent.
That's exactly uh the gain ofexactly what we're talking
about.
It's like when I when I reallyunderstand the effort it takes
to be balanced andself-sufficient internally with
who I am, and I'm able to takecare of myself, I'm able to cook
my own food, I'm able to do allthose things that encompass
(19:28):
those energies.
I absolutely get to a placewhere I appreciate so much
people that do that.
And then I can choose to letthem do it for me as well and be
a part of my life in that way.
Because I'm so much more likelyto uh express the appreciation
and and value it, which again isvaluing yourself, but then you
externalize it and you're moreobservant, you're just again,
(19:52):
just more thoughtful about it.
That's a great way of that's agreat insight.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
I think it does feel like at some point we're We're
doing this a formulation and youknow, we're gonna like you said
earlier, we're gonna go all liveon an island or somewhere.
No, it really is.
It really is just being moregracious and appreciative of
people that do those naturalenergies that's so hard for us
sometimes to to express.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah.
And I think one of the areas forme, uh we've talked about this a
little bit, that the initiatorfor me has sometimes held a a
weight of my pushback orfrustration because of
interactions with verydysfunctional initiators that of
which then I've been kind ofheld the consequences of that.
(20:44):
And so kind of resistant to thatpersonality style.
And I think one of the movementstoward balance is to have much
greater appreciation for whatinitiators bring to the world.
So instead of that resistance,that pushback, I realize that
there is an initiator within methat I need to tap into,
(21:06):
otherwise, I'm not going to getthings done that I need to tap
into so that I can bring aboutsome things in my life that I
desire.
And in so doing, it shifts myunderstanding grace toward and
then appreciation of others whodo that naturally.
And it leads me to a posture of,oh, I actually not only need it
(21:32):
in me, but need it in the world.
So something that I vilify nowbecomes something that is
valued.
And so it doesn't make me moreself-sufficient in the sense of
completely independent.
It makes me more self-sufficientin that I can tap into it in
myself, but also have a greaterappreciation of it in others
when it comes naturally.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Just like if uh, you know, 30 years ago, if someone,
you know, would have said, turnthe water off before you do
that.
I might have taken that as like,don't tell me what to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And now you realize, oh, that'sa good voice.
Perhaps you should turn thewater off first.
(22:14):
Yeah.
It is so true.
And that's how you become, Ithink, really emotionally
healthy.
You realize the positive valueof those voices.
Of course, like we've talkedabout or mentioned before,
there's a negative side to allof those.
And I think even the controllingside of a strong initiator who
demands things to be their way,I have to get in touch with my
initiator to push back withthose people.
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
That's a great example.
That's a great example.
Yeah.
And that's part of then what itis to be healthy in the midst of
relationships.
Yeah.
I'm interacting with somebodywho could just roll right over
me.
And now I'm finding the voicethat says, I need to speak up in
these moments.
And yeah, maybe in those momentsyou'd like to live on an island
(23:00):
away from that individual.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
No, that's why that's why I say people model
the behavior they want, or theymodel the behavior they need.
Like with a lot of people thatare married to narcissists, I
will use the phrase, you have toget in touch with your own
narcissism in order to pushback.
Wow.
And it's so counterintuitive forthose people because that feels
(23:25):
so wrong.
And I go, well, you're notbecoming them.
I said you're using the traitthat defends and protects
yourself, because that's whatthey are doing unconsciously to
the detriment of therelationship.
So you have to really get intouch with what you want and
stand firm in it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
It also leads you to a place I think.
Let me preface it briefly bysaying I think one of the
difficult issues inrelationships is that when we
speak the same spoken language,we think we're speaking the same
language.
That just because we speakEnglish does not mean we're
(24:03):
saying the same thing.
That's absolutely true.
And the language of a responderis so different than the
language of a transformer.
And we're using the same words,but they come out with
completely different meanings.
And so when you said get intouch with the narcissist inside
(24:23):
of you, when you begin to learnthat internal language and try
and speak it in a healthy wayinwardly to yourself, you then
can speak the narcissisticlanguage in ways that get heard.
Because the problem so often iswe speak in ways that never get
heard by the other individualbecause we're not speaking their
(24:45):
true language.
Absolutely true.
And that that is that is thesecret to communicating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
That's why I say with couples, in the context of
who you know that person is, howdo you you know how to talk to
them?
Oh, yeah.
And yet we it takes energy tostop and think, okay, wait a
minute.
If I talk to this way, they'renever going to hear me.
If I talk the way that I want totalk, they're not going to hear
me.
(25:10):
But if I can talk the way theytalk, then it makes more sense.
That that takes that's an art.
I mean, that's that that thatdoes take work to get to that
point.
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
My kids are now in the parenting stage of little
infants, and to watch howlanguage changes when you're
interacting with a baby.
I mean, your tone, your voice,everything, because you're
trying to communicate in a waythat makes sense.
And we forget that when they'reteenagers.
(25:40):
That's so true.
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
But we can talk about you're doing all that
stuff.
Yeah, you're talking the baby'slanguage, but we you we do
forget it in adolescence becauseit's very self-serving
conversations typically inadolescents.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
But the principle still holds.
If you're gonna talk well toyour children, you've got to
make sure that you are speakinga language that is heard because
it's just because it's Englishdoesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Yeah, it really is the language of validation.
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
Oh, I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
We're validating the four-month-old.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Yes, absolutely true.
Yeah.
You're good at that, Chip.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Yeah, I'm really good at that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
In fact, it's the same thing.
It's the same thing withadolescent to to say, I I know
you're not gonna like the factthat I'm taking your phone away.
I I can understand that thatwould really suck.
But we're gonna take your phoneaway.
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
Or an acknowledgement that being upset
is probably the appropriateresponse.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Uh Jim, thanks.
This has been a good episode.
I'm loving these questions.
So we've got a few more we gottaget to.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
They're great questions.
I need to ask you morequestions, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
Well, okay, great.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Are you enjoying the podcast?
I sure am.
I need to tell a friend aboutit.
Thank you.
We hope the listeners will aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (27:15):
Absolutely true.
Thanks.
Great, Jim.
Yeah, good to be with you.
SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Yeah, now that's good stuff.
Okay, welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in
Dreams.
I'm your co-host, D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shale.
We love to explore the innerlandscape of personality, and we
have been spending this seasonlooking at a model of
personality.
Hopefully, you've listenedenough that you have a working
knowledge of that.
And we've been taking somequestions, people who have been
(00:34):
curious about some of the thingsthat have been said and were
wanting us to go a little bitdeeper.
So hey, let's go deeper, D.
Let's go deeper, D.
Let's do that today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Thanks for your affirmation of that, Jim.
Well, no problem.
I just want to acknowledge thatI was here because you'd said
that my co-host and I hadn'tsaid anything, so I thought I
would just express that.
Let's go deeper.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
So sorry I didn't let you interject sooner.
Thank you.
Dig deeper with D.
I like that.
Yeah.
I'm not sure we need you thisepisode, Jim.
It was intended to be myepisode, but sure.
Okay, join in.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
We had an episode a couple weeks ago that was on
midlife.
It was midlife of vocation,midlife of relationships,
midlife of your journey.
And we discussed some of thethings that individuals face
during that midlife span, uh,the reevaluation that takes
place.
We had a listener who wasinterested in what it might be
(01:47):
like for us to talk about thosewho are not yet to midlife in a
relationship, in vocation, intheir age, and want to do some
things that raised awarenessfrom an episode like that.
But what are some of thepractices you put in place to
try and mediate the crisis thatcan occur at midlife?
(02:09):
And so just a response, acomment or two, if you're having
somebody that is just wanting toget healthier and kind of head
off that.
I'm not sure that you can stopit from coming.
But what are some of the thingsthat come to mind when somebody
asks a question like that, Jim?
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Yeah, my my casual initial response is along the
lines, you can't be you can't be40 when you're 30, you can't be
50 when you're 40.
So sometimes life unfolds.
The question uh seems to think,how can I anticipate the
possibilities of the future andbe prepared for them?
And I think from my perspective,if you're going to be that
(02:50):
proactive, you have to be prettyflexible in your in realizing
that there's gonna come traumasin your life, there's gonna come
unexpected things that arereally going to challenge you.
And so how can you prepare forthose things?
Well, uh one of the biggesthurdles is to realize that most
people don't escape this worldwithout something dramatic or
(03:12):
trump dramatic happening tothem.
And that helps develop theirapproach in some ways, as far
as, okay, how do I do I guess onwhat those might be?
Or do I just kind of realizethat, okay, things are going to
happen.
And do I have the flexibility inmy makeup to really be able to
adapt to it?
Like if I know my one of mytraits is I don't like change,
(03:35):
how do I begin to realize, okay,that might be an important trait
to work on?
And so again, it comes back alittle bit to self-awareness and
knowing yourself really well.
And that goes along with askingyour partner for that, asking
significant people in your lifefor their feedback to begin that
(03:56):
process.
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
So I think that's a great response.
I'd love you to go a little bitdeeper in something that you've
talked about before, and youjust briefly mentioned, and
that's flexibility, butspecifically flexible thinking.
So I think that that thatcharacteristic is different than
whether you're comfortable oruncomfortable with change.
(04:18):
You can have an approach to lifewhere you kind of like things
stable and are not alwaysseeking change, but still be
very flexible in your thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
That's true.
That's true.
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
So I know that that's a real key issue when
you're working with individualsor couples is flexible thinking.
So how does that often come upin a session?
W what are some of the cues thatyou see that cause you to say,
I'm this is a good time to bringit up?
And I know one of I'm gonna kindof set the stage for you, but
(04:52):
sometimes I know what you do iswhen somebody has a strong
opinion, you'll often articulatethe opposite view of that
argument.
And I think that that's part oftrying to develop a greater
flexible thinking in anindividual.
Am I right?
Or is that something else?
SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
It is.
There's a a a couple strategies.
One is if I sometimes I'll ask,what's the other what's the
other view of that, of thatthought that you have?
Is there another view of that?
And if they have a hard timewith that, then I'll I'll
perhaps introduce the idea thatperhaps that's a belief and not
(05:32):
an opinion.
And so then you wrestle, you getthem to wrestle with the idea
that in reality it's an opinion,but it's moved into kind of a
belief.
And so then I challenge that andsay, okay, let's examine that.
Is that really a belief?
I mean, can would you die forthat or you know, put it in some
dramatic terms to see, and lotsof times they'll back up and
(05:53):
say, well, I guess that maybe isan opinion.
And then you kind of push themand say, okay, what would be the
an opposite opinion of that?
And so you're just basicallytrying to do an exercise to see
how nimble they are to be ableto identify other ways of
thinking about something.
Which again, in the context ofyour own life, from my
perspective, it's crucial to beable to see different strategies
(06:15):
to be able to address issues inyour life.
Whether it's your spouse, yourpartner, or a work situation,
anything that's that's got youstuck, can you look at it from a
different perspective, whichwould go back to probably the
transformer energy of being opento new possibilities.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
So, yeah, back to that four quadrant model.
If you are self-aware of yourdefault style, one of the ways
you increase flexible thinkingis to consider what another
aspect of your personality,another style, how that might
(06:54):
change your response.
So if I am a responder and Itend to be that nurturer and
caregiver, what would it be liketo be an initiator?
I'm attracted to that, butusually I'm the caretaker for
that.
What's the perspective of theinitiator in me?
And just thinking that throughwill sometimes add to a flexible
(07:17):
way of viewing the world andviewing myself, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
Well, yeah.
Plus, plus, to use that example,the if you initiate self-care,
you would have to start focusingon taking care of yourself as
opposed to others.
And so the initiating aspectwould be maybe I start I need to
start working out or walking orexercising, something that I
would always put off because Iwas tending to other people.
(07:40):
That's how you would begin tothink, okay, the initiator in me
needs to do this.
And so, yes, that's that's theflexibility to say, okay, what
would that feel like?
For for a lot of people that arenatural responders, they
probably would identify that asfeeling selfish, putting
themselves first.
Because again, initiatorstypically can be viewed as
selfish because they initiatethings, they create change, and
(08:03):
it's all about them.
People on the outside that don'thave that natural energy would
critique them and basically say,see, it's all about them, when
really they just have a naturalway of being and hey, let's go
do that.
And and a lot of people wouldfollow it.
Other people would set back andcriticize it, you know.
Anytime you make a bold move,you've split the world in some
ways.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Yeah.
Well, that's a good point.
And whether it's the outer worldor the inner world.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
My latest example this week hasbeen I helped a person, a good
friend of mine, with her hotwater heater.
And they there's a rod that youput in a hot water heater to
keep it from corroding.
SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
And so I said that probably needs to be replaced.
But as usual, my transformer didnot think it through, like I
didn't hear it in my house whenI didn't shut the water off.
So, so I went to her house and Itook that plug out and boy,
water went everywhere.
And of course, she ended uphaving it a new hot water
heater.
(09:04):
So, so I say that's probably toopersonal, but I say that to say
you make a choice, thingshappen.
And you end up with theconsequences.
So, in it using our quadrants ofof expressions, my transformer
just said, Yep, gotta be done,let's go do it.
The stabilizer did not show upand say, Is the water turned
off?
(09:24):
Yeah.
And that's my my natural mynatural energy as a transformer
where I don't often think thinkthrough the consequences of
something.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
So I think that sometimes the ruminating over
what could happen when you talkabout midlife of a relationship
or vocation, that sometimes thattakes far more energy than just
trying to move to a place offlexible thinking and whatever
(09:55):
it is that comes, then youaddress it knowing that you have
the resources to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:01):
The ruminating, excuse me to uh to interrupt a
little bit, but the ruminatingis actually a false sense of
movement.
If I if I ruminate inside myhead, I can feel like I'm doing
something about it, but I'm notreally.
So to your point, which is agreat point, is that sometimes
(10:22):
just make a decision and do it.
And then realize there's gonnabe a consequence.
And you have no idea sometimeswhat it will be, no matter how
hard you prepare for it.
There's gonna be a consequence.
And that's why a lot of peoplethat that are stuck in the
stabilizer have a fear of makinga choice, because there's always
a consequence.
And they're usually they thinkit's gonna be a less than
(10:43):
positive one.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
Well, yeah.
Sometimes we say this is trueabout every personality style,
but maybe more so with thestabilizer, that the dysfunction
you know is far more appealingthan the possibility of health
that has the unknown.
That's so true.
And so we're back to that adageabout when stress levels go up,
(11:06):
you retreat to that which ismost familiar, no matter how
dysfunctional it is, becauseit's known.
You you know the quantity.
There are so many things thatcan happen.
And let's just use the midlifeof a relationship.
Early on in the relationship, Imean, it's just glorious because
there's attraction, there'sromance, there not all the
(11:26):
issues of life have settled inthat can cause problems within a
relationship.
It's really difficult to thinkahead and not be
catastrophizing.
I mean, it's almost as if that'swhat catastrophizing is, is
overthinking what could happenin the relationship, but instead
to take the posture of justenough realism that says, I know
(11:47):
this is one of those wonderfulphases.
I'm going to enjoy it, and Ihave enough flexible thinking
that when the difficult timescome, do our best to think
through and live through whattakes place.
So part of it is realisticallyliving in the moment, enjoying
the moment now, but beingrealistic about it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
One of the fascinating things.
I just lost my train of thought.
So it wasn't that fascinating.
Apologize.
(12:27):
I completely uh refresh refreshmy memory on what you were
saying because I had a reallygood thought.
We're talking about personality.
SPEAKER_02 (12:42):
And what it feels like to be older and forget
things.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Well, I think we have a live example of that
right now.
I had a I had a thought and itzoomed right out of my right out
of my head.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
We don't need to go back to it, but we were talking
about living in the moment andenjoying, but also being
realistic about what's coming.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Oh, no, no.
Thank you.
You reminded me.
Lots of times the the what-ifs,what ifs to the negative creates
anxiety.
But what ifs to the positivecreates new worlds.
So it really is how you use yourwhat-ifs.
And yes, the the typical thingis what ifs, what if this
happens?
What if this happens?
We catastrophize rather thanwhat if it works out?
(13:25):
Why do we go to the negative?
Well, it's probably moreprotective.
But to your point, theflexibility of thinking is,
well, what if it works out?
What if we can handle it?
What if the tire goes flat inthe middle of the of a trail and
we have no spare?
We'll just sit in the desert anddie.
No, we'll figure it out.
Yeah, we'll figure it out.
(13:46):
So I think that's really animportant uh way to navigate
flexible thinking is to say, doyou use your what-ifs to
catastrophize or to create a newworld?
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
I really, really like that.
I would add one last piece tothe discussion.
And that is part of beingrealistic is saying, I won't be
surprised if there comes a timewhen this job isn't as
satisfying.
I won't be surprised if we hit arough spot in our relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
That's addressing the the original question.
That's great.
Because that's exactly how youdo it.
It's like, can I stay adaptableand realize that it life never
turns out like we think most ofthe time?
I shouldn't say never and thenmost of the time together, but
it seems like it seems like lifereally doesn't turn out like we
think if if we have thosethoughts.
So that's a great way of summingit up.
SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
And it may lead me to new places that I'd never
experienced before that willtake me by surprise in a great
way.
You we talked quite a bit inthat episode about the midlife
of vocation, some of thedifficulties that you face in
that phase.
But it's also true that some ofthose struggles lead to new
places vocationally that youwould have never expected, new
(15:07):
opportunities or new decisionsthat you have to make to make
sense of your journey.
So yeah, great question fromlistener.
Um I think we have time foranother one if we could.
And that is a listener called inor yeah, called in and asked
about self-sufficiency.
Is health self-sufficiency?
(15:30):
And this person uh thinks thatthe answer to that is no.
Um and so followed it with ifnot, what is it like to need
others in a healthy way, anintegrated way?
So acknowledging that you reallydo need others in your life.
And I know there are some peoplewho are incredibly independent,
(15:53):
but what does that look like ina healthy way?
I I would be interested in whatyour thoughts are.
Well, one of the things is thatI'm not sure that the notion of
self-sufficiency is independentof needing or desiring or
wanting interactions with othersand needing things from others.
(16:13):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
It's kind of like interdependent.
Yeah, it's kind of likeinterdependency or dependency.
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Aaron Powell Oh, yeah, that is a good language to
use.
I think if we're looking atself-sufficiency as not needing
anyone else.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Yeah, no, that's it'd be interesting to how how
they're defin def definingself-sufficiency.
Because yeah, it doesn't meanyou're excluding everybody, but
it could.
It's like self-sufficiency, is Ilive on an island and don't need
anybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
Off off the grid and off the grid.
SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know that that'sself-sufficiency.
I think that's probably un toher to this person's point,
probably unhealthy.
But then how do you the wordneed is the interesting part of
that.
It's like, what's it feel liketo be self-sufficient and need
someone?
Well, it would be like, I need II'm moving and I can't do it by
(17:08):
myself.
I need help.
I need others to help me.
Now that's a terrible, terribleexample, probably, because a lot
of people get hit up for forbeing helping people move and
then they never talk to themagain.
So but you know, the point ofincluding other people in my
life, because I need thesocialization, I need the I need
the contact, the connections.
(17:30):
Yeah, those are those are reallyimportant.
And that that's not that's againinterdependencies.
There's there's a sense that weneed each other.
Or we want each other, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Yeah.
It's probably it'd be wonderfulif we had this person on the
line or included right now,because I'm gonna have to
interpret.
But let me add to where I thinkthis comes from.
We spent a great deal of time,maybe sprinkled throughout all
of the episodes, where we talkabout externalizing or
(18:01):
projecting things that arewithin us that are out of
balance or in need of beingaddressed.
And so we're attracted tosomebody in a relationship that
embodies some of the things inus that are undeveloped.
So we have promoted that amovement toward health is to
raise those things toconsciousness and to develop
(18:25):
that side of us so we're notdependent on a transformer to
give us the energy to float on.
Yes.
Or if we're a transformer, we'renot dependent upon a stabilizer
to give us structure andinsight.
And so when we do move towardthat healthier place, does it
mean that we're self-sufficientand no longer need the other
(18:48):
people in our life?
Or does it mean that we havegotten to a place where we have
far greater appreciation forthat side of us, which leads to
greater appreciation fordifferent perspectives that
others bring into our life?
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
That is excellent.
That's exactly uh the gain ofexactly what we're talking
about.
It's like when I when I reallyunderstand the effort it takes
to be balanced andself-sufficient internally with
who I am, and I'm able to takecare of myself, I'm able to cook
my own food, I'm able to do allthose things that encompass
(19:28):
those energies.
I absolutely get to a placewhere I appreciate so much
people that do that.
And then I can choose to letthem do it for me as well and be
a part of my life in that way.
Because I'm so much more likelyto uh express the appreciation
and and value it, which again isvaluing yourself, but then you
externalize it and you're moreobservant, you're just again,
(19:52):
just more thoughtful about it.
That's a great way of that's agreat insight.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
I think it does feel like at some point we're We're
doing this a formulation and youknow, we're gonna like you said
earlier, we're gonna go all liveon an island or somewhere.
No, it really is.
It really is just being moregracious and appreciative of
people that do those naturalenergies that's so hard for us
sometimes to to express.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah.
And I think one of the areas forme, uh we've talked about this a
little bit, that the initiatorfor me has sometimes held a a
weight of my pushback orfrustration because of
interactions with verydysfunctional initiators that of
which then I've been kind ofheld the consequences of that.
(20:44):
And so kind of resistant to thatpersonality style.
And I think one of the movementstoward balance is to have much
greater appreciation for whatinitiators bring to the world.
So instead of that resistance,that pushback, I realize that
there is an initiator within methat I need to tap into,
(21:06):
otherwise, I'm not going to getthings done that I need to tap
into so that I can bring aboutsome things in my life that I
desire.
And in so doing, it shifts myunderstanding grace toward and
then appreciation of others whodo that naturally.
And it leads me to a posture of,oh, I actually not only need it
(21:32):
in me, but need it in the world.
So something that I vilify nowbecomes something that is
valued.
And so it doesn't make me moreself-sufficient in the sense of
completely independent.
It makes me more self-sufficientin that I can tap into it in
myself, but also have a greaterappreciation of it in others
when it comes naturally.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Just like if uh, you know, 30 years ago, if someone,
you know, would have said, turnthe water off before you do
that.
I might have taken that as like,don't tell me what to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And now you realize, oh, that'sa good voice.
Perhaps you should turn thewater off first.
(22:14):
Yeah.
It is so true.
And that's how you become, Ithink, really emotionally
healthy.
You realize the positive valueof those voices.
Of course, like we've talkedabout or mentioned before,
there's a negative side to allof those.
And I think even the controllingside of a strong initiator who
demands things to be their way,I have to get in touch with my
initiator to push back withthose people.
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
That's a great example.
That's a great example.
Yeah.
And that's part of then what itis to be healthy in the midst of
relationships.
Yeah.
I'm interacting with somebodywho could just roll right over
me.
And now I'm finding the voicethat says, I need to speak up in
these moments.
And yeah, maybe in those momentsyou'd like to live on an island
(23:00):
away from that individual.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
No, that's why that's why I say people model
the behavior they want, or theymodel the behavior they need.
Like with a lot of people thatare married to narcissists, I
will use the phrase, you have toget in touch with your own
narcissism in order to pushback.
Wow.
And it's so counterintuitive forthose people because that feels
(23:25):
so wrong.
And I go, well, you're notbecoming them.
I said you're using the traitthat defends and protects
yourself, because that's whatthey are doing unconsciously to
the detriment of therelationship.
So you have to really get intouch with what you want and
stand firm in it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
It also leads you to a place I think.
Let me preface it briefly bysaying I think one of the
difficult issues inrelationships is that when we
speak the same spoken language,we think we're speaking the same
language.
That just because we speakEnglish does not mean we're
(24:03):
saying the same thing.
That's absolutely true.
And the language of a responderis so different than the
language of a transformer.
And we're using the same words,but they come out with
completely different meanings.
And so when you said get intouch with the narcissist inside
(24:23):
of you, when you begin to learnthat internal language and try
and speak it in a healthy wayinwardly to yourself, you then
can speak the narcissisticlanguage in ways that get heard.
Because the problem so often iswe speak in ways that never get
heard by the other individualbecause we're not speaking their
(24:45):
true language.
Absolutely true.
And that that is that is thesecret to communicating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
That's why I say with couples, in the context of
who you know that person is, howdo you you know how to talk to
them?
Oh, yeah.
And yet we it takes energy tostop and think, okay, wait a
minute.
If I talk to this way, they'renever going to hear me.
If I talk the way that I want totalk, they're not going to hear
me.
(25:10):
But if I can talk the way theytalk, then it makes more sense.
That that takes that's an art.
I mean, that's that that thatdoes take work to get to that
point.
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
My kids are now in the parenting stage of little
infants, and to watch howlanguage changes when you're
interacting with a baby.
I mean, your tone, your voice,everything, because you're
trying to communicate in a waythat makes sense.
And we forget that when they'reteenagers.
(25:40):
That's so true.
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
But we can talk about you're doing all that
stuff.
Yeah, you're talking the baby'slanguage, but we you we do
forget it in adolescence becauseit's very self-serving
conversations typically inadolescents.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
But the principle still holds.
If you're gonna talk well toyour children, you've got to
make sure that you are speakinga language that is heard because
it's just because it's Englishdoesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Yeah, it really is the language of validation.
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
Oh, I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
We're validating the four-month-old.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Yes, absolutely true.
Yeah.
You're good at that, Chip.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Yeah, I'm really good at that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
In fact, it's the same thing.
It's the same thing withadolescent to to say, I I know
you're not gonna like the factthat I'm taking your phone away.
I I can understand that thatwould really suck.
But we're gonna take your phoneaway.
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
Or an acknowledgement that being upset
is probably the appropriateresponse.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Uh Jim, thanks.
This has been a good episode.
I'm loving these questions.
So we've got a few more we gottaget to.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
They're great questions.
I need to ask you morequestions, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
Well, okay, great.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Are you enjoying the podcast?
I sure am.
I need to tell a friend aboutit.
Thank you.
We hope the listeners will aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (27:15):
Absolutely true.
Thanks.
Great, Jim.
Yeah, good to be with you.
SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Yeah, now that's good stuff.
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The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe
When a group of women from all over the country realise they all dated the same prolific romance scammer they vow to bring him to justice. In this brand new season of global number 1 hit podcast, The Girlfriends, Anna Sinfield meets a group of funny, feisty, determined women who all had the misfortune of dating a mysterious man named Derek Alldred. Trust Me Babe is a story about the protective forces of gossip, gut instinct, and trusting your besties and the group of women who took matters into their own hands to take down a fraudster when no one else would listen. If you’re affected by any of the themes in this show, our charity partners NO MORE have available resources at https://www.nomore.org. To learn more about romance scams, and to access specialised support, visit https://fightcybercrime.org/ The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe is produced by Novel for iHeartPodcasts. For more from Novel, visit https://novel.audio/. You can listen to new episodes of The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “iHeart True Crime+, and subscribe today!