February 4, 2026 • 29 mins
We explore how addictive behaviors can be signals from unbalanced inner energies, how to hear what the unconscious is asking for, and why old issues resurface even after insight. We close with a grounded view of integration, spiritual connection, and practical next steps that honor both emotion and choice.
• masculine and feminine energies across dynamic and static styles
• addiction as unconscious coping when a part lacks voice
• bold moves, dreams, and adjusting outer life to inner truth
• interest, insight, integration as a practical sequence
• triggers as teachers and faster recovery as a sign of growth
• asking what energy you wish others would bring as your inner cue
We trace the path from interest to insight to integration, showing how emotional learning completes what the mind knows. A heated moment at a car wash becomes an x-ray: not being believed triggers old wiring, and the body surges to protect. Integration doesn’t look like perfection; it looks like noticing faster, breathing sooner, repairing better, and choosing differently. Dreams and bold moves help translate unconscious signals into aligned action, whether that means renegotiating roles, shifting work, or creating boundaries that let spontaneity thrive without chaos. The goal isn’t to silence parts but to give each a seat at the table.
We also open a wider lens on meaning and the divine. Clients bring every kind of belief, from God-within to God-everywhere to none at all. Rather than forcing a box, we use humble curiosity as a bridge to connection. That stance mirrors inner balance: making space for difference without abandoning truth. If you’ve ever wondered why old wounds flash back or how to turn triggers into teachers, you’ll find language, tools, and stories that make the inner landscape livable, honest, and hopeful.
If this resonates, share it with someone who needs relief and a reframe. Then subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what bold move is your unconscious asking for today?
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shaley.
Hi, Jim.
Welcome back, Dee.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Um, we are exploring the innerlandscape of personality.
We've been looking at a modelthat considers both masculine
and feminine energies anddynamic versus static approaches
(00:32):
to how we live and how to findbalance in the midst of all of
that.
The last few episodes we've beenconsidering some questions from
our listeners, and we're goingto dig into a few more this week
in the hopes that we can addressnot just the model in its form,
but how it practically works outin people's lives and the kinds
(00:53):
of questions that they have whenthey're trying to work through a
variety of things.
So I'd like to start with onethat I thought maybe we could
handle quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
I'm not sure I like this.
You're starting to laugh beforethe question.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Well, there you go.
So this first one was you made acomment in one of the episodes
that it's not healthy for a40-year-old to get high all the
time.
Oh.
And so the question is, so whatis the healthy number?
(01:35):
Like what age is it?
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Well, all the time seems to be while you're
sleeping, while you're awake.
That's a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
So yeah, but specifically a 40-year-old, so
uh is there another age wherethat works well?
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Well, let's be politically correct here.
It's an individual choice.
So if you if you need to gethigh all the time, you know,
there'll be consequences, goodand bad, as with any behavioral
choice.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
So I think maybe the person is just looking for
permission.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
So Well, then I would say I can't give it, but
you can hang you can take it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
So though I would actually like to take the
question a little bit further.
We have said that Transformersand Transformers being that
feminine dynamic energy, again,not male or female, anybody has
access to that energy.
But one who is dominated by thatpersonality style when they are
(02:38):
coping in health in unhealthyways, that they tend to be prone
toward addictions.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Okay.
That's not at all to say that aperson in any other portion on
this personality style matrixcan't struggle with addictions.
Anybody can struggle withaddictions.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Yeah.
And you And lots of timesaddictions come come into play
when you're trying to cope withcertain certain styles that you
might have.
unknown (03:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Like if yeah, like if I'm too much of an initiator,
I'm stressed out, I could drinktoo much, I could do I you know
smoke too much pot, something,something to make up for that
excessive excessive energy.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
And addiction has been taking a lot of directions,
like addiction to shopping orfinances, money.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Absolutely.
And it's just that transformingenergy that you usually get in
touch with when that starts tohappen.
So if I'm a driver and I findmyself stopping on the way home
to drink too much, that's theunconscious way, from my
perspective, of the transformerto time to show itself.
It doesn't like the pressure, itdoesn't like the expectation.
So the that's why I say if youcan paint a picture of the where
(03:51):
the energy is being expressed,that's a form of it.
So if I stop and drink too much,basically that's the transformer
inside inside of the initiator.
Trying to get a voice because itdoesn't have any voice.
Right.
Yeah.
In a person's mind.
And it's it can't get theinitiator to realize I'm too
stressed and I'm too muchpressure and too many of these
things.
So then I stop on the way homeand I have too many drinks.
(04:13):
That's basically saying it.
That's why it's, again, soimportant to pay attention to
those expressions, because it itbalances us all out if we have
the fortitude and the ability tostop and take a look at it.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
But it's also probably, I'm guessing you would
say an appropriate perspectivethat often those addictions as a
way to cope are coming out ofthe unconscious.
So we're not aware of it when itinitially starts, much like
dreams arise out of theunconscious and paying attention
(04:48):
to those things that startle us,frighten us, cause us to do
behaviors that we weren't reallyexpecting, absolutely alert us
to the fact that the unconsciousis trying to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Yes.
And I think with dreams, or evenin my frame, a bold move.
So if you take the idea thetransformer wants to stop and
have too many drinks on the wayhome from work, whatever that
is, I'm looking for a relief.
I'm looking for an escape.
I'm looking for some otherenergy.
And so the adaptive part isokay, what needs to happen?
Maybe I need to make a boldmove, or I have a really
(05:21):
disconcerting dream.
So I may need to shift somechoices I'm making.
But that's that's can bechallenging if you have a
family, if you got to provide,you got bills, all that stuff
can inhibit that ability.
So then it's easier just to stopand and have a drink or whatever
the metaphor is.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Yeah, because you think you're containing the
consequences.
You've contained it to my littleexperience right now, which with
an addiction is never the casebecause it affects a work
system, a family system, arelationship, a marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, but think it, yeah, on some level, it's
addressing it when the realchallenge might very well be, I
need to I need to change jobs.
Or my marriage is really, reallydifficult.
Again, some kind of what I wouldsay bold move, the unconscious
is trying to cause happen.
And oftentimes when we don'tmake the bold move, we you know
(06:14):
get fired from a job, we have anaffair, but something happens
back to what we talked aboutbefore.
Some trauma happens that kind ofmotivates us to get into a
better frame.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Speaking from experience, you can do the bold
move and still get fired fromthe job.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Yes, but did that turn out good?
SPEAKER_03 (06:39):
Oh, so good.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Yeah.
So in that situation where Idon't know if the right word is
aberrant behavior, but behaviorthat maybe you wouldn't even
think you would normally do,when you realize, oh man, this
doesn't feel like me, then thequestion is, what's the outward
trying to reveal of the inward?
(07:02):
So let me try and figure out theexpressions of myself that I
haven't been paying attentionto.
And that's the movement towardhealth.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
Yeah.
So that was a great descriptionof how the transformer side of
me can come out and i expose howI'm not dealing with a
particular issue.
And I might also add that whenthe outward conflict that I'm
(07:30):
trying to avoid isn't addressedas the inward conflict that I'm
not paying attention to, thatthat's often when those kinds of
aberrant behaviors get expressedis I see the conflict, I'm
trying to avoid it, but I'malways paying attention to the
outward stuff and I'm puttingblame everywhere else.
(07:51):
And it's not that the blame goeson me, it's that I'm not paying
attention to the inward conflictthat has me projecting that all
over the place.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Yep.
It's it's like one of the easierways to diagnose it is if I have
a problem and I think what wouldI like for someone to do right
now for me?
If somebody outside of me couldcome in and do something, what
would relieve my angst?
And typically that's the energythat you have to access.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
It's a great way to put it.
Um back though, one last issuebefore we move on to the next
question, and that is thetransformer.
The transformer's energy is veryspontaneous, a high energy,
looks for change, but is alsoaware of people and people's
opinions.
(08:44):
If it's not the transformerenergy trying to get a voice,
what is the driving force thatcauses transformers to move down
the pathway of addiction?
SPEAKER_00 (08:53):
They've probably have felt judged or well,
judged.
In other words, their energy isway too expressive, and so they
feel shut down, they aren'tgetting promoted at work.
Something something's affectingbecause they can't see that
they're not necessarilydisciplined enough at times.
(09:14):
And so they'll get pushbackabout that, and then that could
cycle them back around to tobeing more excessive in their
drinking.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
So that's great.
I would probably break that upinto two parts.
That's good because I probablydidn't say it well enough.
So that's good.
I I would say that the part youjust described is sometimes
self-imposed, but it's alsosometimes that the world that
(09:45):
the transformer is in, whatevertheir local network of
friendships or relationships, uhoften don't know what to do with
the transformer because they'renot bound by the same social
norms, it seems, as others are.
And because their culturalenvironment doesn't know what to
do with them, sometimes thatleads to trying to cope with
(10:07):
that feeling of aloneness thatcan lead first to like the one
step toward addiction.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
The second go ahead.
They will feel misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Great way to put it.
I think the second piece is thatthe spontaneity that naturally
comes with a transformer islike, oh, there's this here.
Yeah, let's try that.
Oh, let's do that, can oftenlead to that chemical shift in
the brain where, oh, that wasfun.
I want to do that again.
(10:39):
I want to do that again.
Oh, I want to do that a lot.
That their natural tendencytowards spontaneity and
enjoyment of the moment can leadto a chemical addiction that is
tough to break because that'sthe natural approach of
spontaneity and it would beinteresting to know if a
(11:00):
transformer that had the bias ofof being a strong transformer
had more of a dopamine rushneed.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That would be interesting toknow that they're looking for
that, whereas other styleswouldn't be as much.
But the transformers areprobably looking for that that
fix.
It'd be interesting to know.
I mean, we're all kind ofaddicted to our to our screens
and our phones and stuff, but itwould be interesting to do a
breakdown of of that to see iftransformers are more likely to
be stuck in that.
(11:29):
The other thing is that we'vetalked about in earlier
episodes, they're usually inrelationship with a stabilizer.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
And so that's sets boundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yes, absolutely.
And that's and that's if theycan appreciate it, but
oftentimes they will feelmothered, and that will actually
push them to be more excessiveand avoid being home, avoid the
responsibilities.
(11:58):
Not that I know anything aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
I'm just saying that's absolutely true.
I think that that is I mean, atransformer who is self-aware,
it just is a very attractivepersonality style.
The energy with boundaries, wow,it's like a magic formula.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
It's really true.
It's like it's like again,finding that edge as you age,
you find it a little bit easier.
But it's finding that thatedginess of should we go up
that, should we go up that trailor should we go down that?
Should we go around the trail oryeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Yeah.
And a transformer says, we gottime to do both.
Let's just go.
Yeah, that's true.
Let's shift gears a little bit.
One of the things that uh cameup in one of our previous
sessions was a statement thatstudying this framework helps us
to understand ourselves and thedivine better.
(12:56):
How does it do that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Uh well remember, you asked not to hear these
questions ahead of time.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
This is your own fault.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Let me defer to you.
That's got to get into aconversation about how the
divine is expressed and how dowe how do we how do we what's
the divine mean?
What's you know so I you know,you're the pastor.
Sound a little tongue-tied, Jim.
Well, if I gave the honestresponse is I mean, you can
(13:30):
integrate traditionalChristianity or evangelical
Christianity in the sense thatthe divine lives within, and
then people that are moreexpressive would say the divine
is uh is everywhere.
We're in s we're inside of thedivine, and so the divine is a
(13:52):
connection.
And so in my mind, when we whenwe connect to our true selves,
that's that's the image that Godmade in us.
So in in in that sense, we'reconnected to the divine.
Thanks.
I appreciate that.
I think that for me.
So you actually you actuallyunderstood what I said?
(14:16):
I just wanted to move on realquickly.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
One of the things that I think is important to
acknowledge is that in the workthat we do, we have clients who
come in with a broad spectrum ofviewpoints on the divine.
SPEAKER_03 (14:36):
Very true.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
And to step into a singular framework in regard to
that can leave individualsfeeling lost, not knowing what
we're talking about.
Some people have no experiencewith a church, a synagogue, or a
temple of any sort.
They were raised devoid of anyof that kind of experience.
Others have like tested thewaters in so many different ways
(15:02):
and come with very strong biasesout of bad experiences or great
point.
Yeah.
So I I think that part of thisquestion.
Of course.
So I think that that I in in themidst of this framework that
(15:22):
talks about appreciating peoplethat don't enter into life with
the same perspective or the sameway of personality guiding them
through certain decision making,we have to recognize that the
experiences of all of the peoplewith whom we interact are wildly
different from us from eachother.
(15:44):
I mean, when I do premaritalcounseling, I I am sometimes
stunned that this couple istogether.
How did you find each other?
Why are you still together?
But great to work on where we gofrom here.
It's so true.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:00):
So I think that is the challenge because you may
have an old your own personalview, but in our work, it really
is a sense of you have toentertain all kinds of
possibilities.
So that's why the question islike there's a probably a bias
in the question.
And so in the response, do youdo you engage in their bias or
(16:21):
do you try to expand it?
And yes, I I believe that thedivine lives within, and our
framework is trying to access itin a pretty balanced way.
I mean, if you use the theChristian scriptures about in
moderation in all things, wherethe Apostle Paul talked about
that, well, that's kind of whatwe're saying.
(16:43):
There's a moderation in eachexpression that we have, and how
do we live that out?
And I think connecting to thedivine is the way that happens.
And and yeah, we can have adiscussion about how you define
the divine, because even usingthe word divine, some people
would say back in the old daysit would be new age or you're
watering it down.
When in my mind, God can handleall those things.
SPEAKER_01 (17:06):
I might have mentioned this one time before,
but one of my favorite ancientHebrew sayings is that the only
thing you can say about God isthat you can't say anything
about God.
Because it's because as soon asyou say something about God,
you've put the divine in a box,and the divine can't be
contained in any box we mightcreate.
(17:28):
And that Hebrew traditioncertainly has some very specific
characteristics that noteverybody that would come to
talk to me or to you would hold.
But I do greatly appreciate thatcommitment to recognizing that
the divine is a larger thananything we could conceive in
(17:49):
terms of the creative force ofthe universe, the way in which
we're all connected.
And I will say that I do have abias in that regard, that there
is a connection between all ofhumanity and all of creation
that sometimes peaks through inpowerful ways, and sometimes we
don't pay attention to it atall.
(18:10):
But more and more as you listento the stories of people's
experiences, it's tough to denythis connection that to me
speaks to the divine.
To that end, I eventually landin a place that the best way for
me to understand that connectionis first to become more and more
self-aware of how thatconnection exists within me.
(18:35):
And then I have thisappreciation that it might exist
in you in a different way, butis there.
And if I'm looking forconnection, my connecting bridge
is to say, as you've often triedto teach us, this is how I
think, but I could be wrong.
I would love to know how youthink or how you come to that
(18:56):
conclusion or what's inside ofyou that leads to whatever it is
that we're discussing.
That to me is the bridge to thecollective divine as well as the
divine within for me.
So that's great.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
That's perfectly said.
Yep.
Thanks, Jim.
You have to really, you have toreally take a deep breath and
realize we all experience lifedifferently.
And conversations and askingquestions, that's where we
connect.
And we've gotten away from thata lot, it seems like.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
Let me take this one step further, because this was
the third question that came in.
And it was just very simple.
Could you give us a little bitmore of a description of what an
integrated person looks like?
So when you have somebody you'reworking with, what are some of
the clues that integration ishappening?
You can see it in the way theylive it out.
(19:52):
And I'd like a very black andwhite answer.
SPEAKER_03 (19:55):
So everybody Well, they will wear certain clothes
all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (20:06):
Appreciate your humor, like the things you like.
SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yes, they will agree with mostof the things you say.
Oh, they're completelyintegrated.
Oh man, that's a great question.
It's just a nuanced of you theindividual, without I mean, it
feels like I'm punting a littlebit.
The individual feels something.
Like the other day, I had asituation in at the car wash
(20:32):
where this guy kept yelling atme to put my car in neutral.
And it was in neutral, but ithad it moves a little bit.
So he thought that I was, I wasin gear, and it wasn't.
And he kept yelling at me.
Finally, unconsciously, I just Iscreamed.
I said, it isn't neutral.
And I was like, later I thoughtabout go, okay, that was a
(20:52):
little bit over, a little bitweird.
So even when you know it,there's these unconscious
triggers that can happen thatyou just respond out of
frustration or whatever.
And I think that's why you haveto build into all of this some
sense that there is no perfectway of being.
But after that episode, Ithought, how could I, excuse me,
(21:15):
how could I have reacted better?
I reacted to his energy.
And that's what we always do.
And so being aware of your ownenergy and what you're bringing
to the table is so important,but that just takes practice.
I mean, I, good Lord, I'm 73years old.
Should I have had that reaction?
No, it was hilarious.
Later I went, okay, that wasinteresting.
I still have my moments wheregetting yelled at can just
(21:39):
initiate this crazy responsefrom me.
So I don't know if that answeredthe question very clearly, but
it's an individual journey.
If I react in a way thatsurprises me, how long does it
take me to ask the question,okay, what what happened there?
And I think that's the journey.
There's no, in other words,there's no template to where,
well, I'm in the middle and Andevery given moment, I know where
(22:01):
I need to be.
No, it's it's it's experiencing,it's experiencing life, and
using that as the framework tobe be more aware of it.
Well, that's good.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Thank you.
It's an interesting bridge tothe last question for today, and
that was why do we hit the sameproblem again and again?
Like I I feel like a personmight say, I've gone to therapy.
We've talked about the issuesthat I face.
I've worked months to try andwork through some things.
And then five months later,something triggers me, and I go,
(22:39):
well, I thought I dealt withthat.
In in a we talked earlier abouta religious framework that is
often the case in religiousframeworks where I thought I
took care of this.
I went through what in Christianlanguage would be the confessing
and forgiveness and surrendermodel.
(23:01):
And here I am again facing thesame thing again and again and
again.
Yeah, and that's that's theintegration of the head and the
heart.
SPEAKER_00 (23:08):
Yeah.
A lot of people will have anintellectual ascent and they
understand it and all of thosethings, and then the emotions
kick up and then they getsabotaged because the emotions
are still there.
And that's why on the ongoingprocess is to realize I
understand intellectually, butemotionally I still get
triggered by it.
I can still be affected by it.
(23:28):
That's why I say the insight isonly the beginning.
There has to be movement thatchanges the brain.
And so what is the movement thatI really do understand the
dynamic?
Well, I start catching myselfmore often.
I'm I become more aware of whenI'm being triggered.
I take a deep breath.
That commitment is so important,and I make a different choice to
(23:50):
respond differently to it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
I love the three words that go together for me,
and that is interest, insight,integration.
Like that's kind of theprogression.
Oh, I'm intrigued by this.
I'm interested.
And then there's like an aha.
Oh, now I see how that works,but it's very intellectual.
And then there's the and thenthere's the integration that
(24:13):
brings the emotion in.
And here's where I think dreamsare so powerful.
When I get triggered during theday about what I think is an old
issue, but there's stillunconscious emotion that I've
not addressed.
That trigger, whatever it is, asmell, a scene, somebody in a
(24:34):
car wash that yells, when thattrigger happens and it touches
something that sure, maybe I'veaddressed, but the emotional
weight of that event of thepast, family of origin, looking
back to looking to look forward,to move forward, brings to the
surface once again somethingthat just needs to be processed.
(24:56):
It's not that doesn't need to bethat traumatic.
It just is, it came up again.
And so I'm remembering a griefof having lost my parents and
something reminded me of it.
I'm remembering an anger overgetting looked over on a job
promotion.
And I dealt with it, butsomething triggered the
emotional weight, and it showsup in my dream, or I had a
(25:20):
reaction to it.
The integrated person goes, oh,okay.
This is just a reminder that Istill carry some of that
emotional weight.
That's perfect.
And that emotional weight isessential to our survival for
whatever we face in the future.
So I don't need to condemn it.
I just need to go, oh, that'swhat that is.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Yeah, there it is.
There it is again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As I thought about the situationat the car watch, as simple as
that or as inconsequential asthat might be, for me, it's like
when I feel like I've donesomething and I don't get credit
for it, I didn't, or they don'tunderstand that I've already
done it, that can trigger me.
(26:01):
It's like I'm I'm ahead of you.
I uh it isn't neutral.
But if you keep accusing me thatI didn't know, or I I feel
stupid, or I feel like I'm notenough, or I did something,
yeah, it still triggers that.
So that's that's the greatpoint.
It's like, yeah, that emotionstill lets you know that there's
still a wound in there, but youcan say, oh yeah, there it is
again.
I tell people that all the time.
It's a reminder, oh yeah, it'sstill there.
(26:22):
Okay.
Am I handling it better than Iused to?
Of course I am.
Yeah, the black and whitethinking, excuse me, the black
and white thinking really is I'mgoing to get to a place where
I've solved it and it goes away.
And it's is life is just notthat fortunately or
unfortunately, not that not thatsimple.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think people forget thatour psyche is built for
survival.
So that if something wastraumatizing or difficult or
painful in the past, thatparticular situation, that
story, is used inwardly toprotect us from things in the
(26:58):
future that will bring pain ordanger.
Absolutely.
That's great.
You're right.
And so sometimes it's importantfor us to tell the same story
again.
I was harmed by my teacher,boss, parent, sibling, whatever
it might be.
And that situation wastraumatic, but the psyche uses
that to protect me in thefuture, and it alerts me when
(27:19):
there feels like there's adanger moment again.
So not being believed triggersan emotion that is protective.
And to go, oh yeah, I know wherethat's coming from.
Thank you, body, for protectingme.
However, you can relax.
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
We've got this.
And uh a lot of people won'twon't uh m remember this quote,
but remember danger, WillRobinson, danger.
Yes, lost in space.
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Yeah.
Which is an essential piece ofsurvival for who we are.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Again, the growth is it protected me.
Do I still need to be protectedthat way?
SPEAKER_03 (27:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I use that phrase in intherapy a lot.
Do you still need to do that?
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
That's great.
And a great place for us tostop.
Jim, as always, it's been greatto be with you.
I hope this has been helpful forthe listeners.
And again, if you have anyquestions, we'll hope you shoot
them off.
This has been a joy for us todig into some of these.
Absolutely, do you talk to younext time.
Great.
Bye.
(28:30):
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com, orDoctor Kelly at
inyourdreams.coach.
(28:52):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm here with Jim Shaley.
Hi, Jim.
Welcome back, Dee.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Um, we are exploring the innerlandscape of personality.
We've been looking at a modelthat considers both masculine
and feminine energies anddynamic versus static approaches
(00:32):
to how we live and how to findbalance in the midst of all of
that.
The last few episodes we've beenconsidering some questions from
our listeners, and we're goingto dig into a few more this week
in the hopes that we can addressnot just the model in its form,
but how it practically works outin people's lives and the kinds
(00:53):
of questions that they have whenthey're trying to work through a
variety of things.
So I'd like to start with onethat I thought maybe we could
handle quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
I'm not sure I like this.
You're starting to laugh beforethe question.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Well, there you go.
So this first one was you made acomment in one of the episodes
that it's not healthy for a40-year-old to get high all the
time.
Oh.
And so the question is, so whatis the healthy number?
(01:35):
Like what age is it?
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Well, all the time seems to be while you're
sleeping, while you're awake.
That's a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
So yeah, but specifically a 40-year-old, so
uh is there another age wherethat works well?
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Well, let's be politically correct here.
It's an individual choice.
So if you if you need to gethigh all the time, you know,
there'll be consequences, goodand bad, as with any behavioral
choice.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
So I think maybe the person is just looking for
permission.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
So Well, then I would say I can't give it, but
you can hang you can take it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
So though I would actually like to take the
question a little bit further.
We have said that Transformersand Transformers being that
feminine dynamic energy, again,not male or female, anybody has
access to that energy.
But one who is dominated by thatpersonality style when they are
(02:38):
coping in health in unhealthyways, that they tend to be prone
toward addictions.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Okay.
That's not at all to say that aperson in any other portion on
this personality style matrixcan't struggle with addictions.
Anybody can struggle withaddictions.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Yeah.
And you And lots of timesaddictions come come into play
when you're trying to cope withcertain certain styles that you
might have.
unknown (03:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Like if yeah, like if I'm too much of an initiator,
I'm stressed out, I could drinktoo much, I could do I you know
smoke too much pot, something,something to make up for that
excessive excessive energy.
So Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
And addiction has been taking a lot of directions,
like addiction to shopping orfinances, money.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Absolutely.
And it's just that transformingenergy that you usually get in
touch with when that starts tohappen.
So if I'm a driver and I findmyself stopping on the way home
to drink too much, that's theunconscious way, from my
perspective, of the transformerto time to show itself.
It doesn't like the pressure, itdoesn't like the expectation.
So the that's why I say if youcan paint a picture of the where
(03:51):
the energy is being expressed,that's a form of it.
So if I stop and drink too much,basically that's the transformer
inside inside of the initiator.
Trying to get a voice because itdoesn't have any voice.
Right.
Yeah.
In a person's mind.
And it's it can't get theinitiator to realize I'm too
stressed and I'm too muchpressure and too many of these
things.
So then I stop on the way homeand I have too many drinks.
(04:13):
That's basically saying it.
That's why it's, again, soimportant to pay attention to
those expressions, because it itbalances us all out if we have
the fortitude and the ability tostop and take a look at it.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
But it's also probably, I'm guessing you would
say an appropriate perspectivethat often those addictions as a
way to cope are coming out ofthe unconscious.
So we're not aware of it when itinitially starts, much like
dreams arise out of theunconscious and paying attention
(04:48):
to those things that startle us,frighten us, cause us to do
behaviors that we weren't reallyexpecting, absolutely alert us
to the fact that the unconsciousis trying to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Yes.
And I think with dreams, or evenin my frame, a bold move.
So if you take the idea thetransformer wants to stop and
have too many drinks on the wayhome from work, whatever that
is, I'm looking for a relief.
I'm looking for an escape.
I'm looking for some otherenergy.
And so the adaptive part isokay, what needs to happen?
Maybe I need to make a boldmove, or I have a really
(05:21):
disconcerting dream.
So I may need to shift somechoices I'm making.
But that's that's can bechallenging if you have a
family, if you got to provide,you got bills, all that stuff
can inhibit that ability.
So then it's easier just to stopand and have a drink or whatever
the metaphor is.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Yeah, because you think you're containing the
consequences.
You've contained it to my littleexperience right now, which with
an addiction is never the casebecause it affects a work
system, a family system, arelationship, a marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, but think it, yeah, on some level, it's
addressing it when the realchallenge might very well be, I
need to I need to change jobs.
Or my marriage is really, reallydifficult.
Again, some kind of what I wouldsay bold move, the unconscious
is trying to cause happen.
And oftentimes when we don'tmake the bold move, we you know
(06:14):
get fired from a job, we have anaffair, but something happens
back to what we talked aboutbefore.
Some trauma happens that kind ofmotivates us to get into a
better frame.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Speaking from experience, you can do the bold
move and still get fired fromthe job.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Yes, but did that turn out good?
SPEAKER_03 (06:39):
Oh, so good.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Yeah.
So in that situation where Idon't know if the right word is
aberrant behavior, but behaviorthat maybe you wouldn't even
think you would normally do,when you realize, oh man, this
doesn't feel like me, then thequestion is, what's the outward
trying to reveal of the inward?
(07:02):
So let me try and figure out theexpressions of myself that I
haven't been paying attentionto.
And that's the movement towardhealth.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
Yeah.
So that was a great descriptionof how the transformer side of
me can come out and i expose howI'm not dealing with a
particular issue.
And I might also add that whenthe outward conflict that I'm
(07:30):
trying to avoid isn't addressedas the inward conflict that I'm
not paying attention to, thatthat's often when those kinds of
aberrant behaviors get expressedis I see the conflict, I'm
trying to avoid it, but I'malways paying attention to the
outward stuff and I'm puttingblame everywhere else.
(07:51):
And it's not that the blame goeson me, it's that I'm not paying
attention to the inward conflictthat has me projecting that all
over the place.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Yep.
It's it's like one of the easierways to diagnose it is if I have
a problem and I think what wouldI like for someone to do right
now for me?
If somebody outside of me couldcome in and do something, what
would relieve my angst?
And typically that's the energythat you have to access.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
It's a great way to put it.
Um back though, one last issuebefore we move on to the next
question, and that is thetransformer.
The transformer's energy is veryspontaneous, a high energy,
looks for change, but is alsoaware of people and people's
opinions.
(08:44):
If it's not the transformerenergy trying to get a voice,
what is the driving force thatcauses transformers to move down
the pathway of addiction?
SPEAKER_00 (08:53):
They've probably have felt judged or well,
judged.
In other words, their energy isway too expressive, and so they
feel shut down, they aren'tgetting promoted at work.
Something something's affectingbecause they can't see that
they're not necessarilydisciplined enough at times.
(09:14):
And so they'll get pushbackabout that, and then that could
cycle them back around to tobeing more excessive in their
drinking.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
So that's great.
I would probably break that upinto two parts.
That's good because I probablydidn't say it well enough.
So that's good.
I I would say that the part youjust described is sometimes
self-imposed, but it's alsosometimes that the world that
(09:45):
the transformer is in, whatevertheir local network of
friendships or relationships, uhoften don't know what to do with
the transformer because they'renot bound by the same social
norms, it seems, as others are.
And because their culturalenvironment doesn't know what to
do with them, sometimes thatleads to trying to cope with
(10:07):
that feeling of aloneness thatcan lead first to like the one
step toward addiction.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
The second go ahead.
They will feel misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Great way to put it.
I think the second piece is thatthe spontaneity that naturally
comes with a transformer islike, oh, there's this here.
Yeah, let's try that.
Oh, let's do that, can oftenlead to that chemical shift in
the brain where, oh, that wasfun.
I want to do that again.
(10:39):
I want to do that again.
Oh, I want to do that a lot.
That their natural tendencytowards spontaneity and
enjoyment of the moment can leadto a chemical addiction that is
tough to break because that'sthe natural approach of
spontaneity and it would beinteresting to know if a
(11:00):
transformer that had the bias ofof being a strong transformer
had more of a dopamine rushneed.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That would be interesting toknow that they're looking for
that, whereas other styleswouldn't be as much.
But the transformers areprobably looking for that that
fix.
It'd be interesting to know.
I mean, we're all kind ofaddicted to our to our screens
and our phones and stuff, but itwould be interesting to do a
breakdown of of that to see iftransformers are more likely to
be stuck in that.
(11:29):
The other thing is that we'vetalked about in earlier
episodes, they're usually inrelationship with a stabilizer.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
And so that's sets boundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yes, absolutely.
And that's and that's if theycan appreciate it, but
oftentimes they will feelmothered, and that will actually
push them to be more excessiveand avoid being home, avoid the
responsibilities.
(11:58):
Not that I know anything aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
I'm just saying that's absolutely true.
I think that that is I mean, atransformer who is self-aware,
it just is a very attractivepersonality style.
The energy with boundaries, wow,it's like a magic formula.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
It's really true.
It's like it's like again,finding that edge as you age,
you find it a little bit easier.
But it's finding that thatedginess of should we go up
that, should we go up that trailor should we go down that?
Should we go around the trail oryeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Yeah.
And a transformer says, we gottime to do both.
Let's just go.
Yeah, that's true.
Let's shift gears a little bit.
One of the things that uh cameup in one of our previous
sessions was a statement thatstudying this framework helps us
to understand ourselves and thedivine better.
(12:56):
How does it do that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Uh well remember, you asked not to hear these
questions ahead of time.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
This is your own fault.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Let me defer to you.
That's got to get into aconversation about how the
divine is expressed and how dowe how do we how do we what's
the divine mean?
What's you know so I you know,you're the pastor.
Sound a little tongue-tied, Jim.
Well, if I gave the honestresponse is I mean, you can
(13:30):
integrate traditionalChristianity or evangelical
Christianity in the sense thatthe divine lives within, and
then people that are moreexpressive would say the divine
is uh is everywhere.
We're in s we're inside of thedivine, and so the divine is a
(13:52):
connection.
And so in my mind, when we whenwe connect to our true selves,
that's that's the image that Godmade in us.
So in in in that sense, we'reconnected to the divine.
Thanks.
I appreciate that.
I think that for me.
So you actually you actuallyunderstood what I said?
(14:16):
I just wanted to move on realquickly.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
One of the things that I think is important to
acknowledge is that in the workthat we do, we have clients who
come in with a broad spectrum ofviewpoints on the divine.
SPEAKER_03 (14:36):
Very true.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
And to step into a singular framework in regard to
that can leave individualsfeeling lost, not knowing what
we're talking about.
Some people have no experiencewith a church, a synagogue, or a
temple of any sort.
They were raised devoid of anyof that kind of experience.
Others have like tested thewaters in so many different ways
(15:02):
and come with very strong biasesout of bad experiences or great
point.
Yeah.
So I I think that part of thisquestion.
Of course.
So I think that that I in in themidst of this framework that
(15:22):
talks about appreciating peoplethat don't enter into life with
the same perspective or the sameway of personality guiding them
through certain decision making,we have to recognize that the
experiences of all of the peoplewith whom we interact are wildly
different from us from eachother.
(15:44):
I mean, when I do premaritalcounseling, I I am sometimes
stunned that this couple istogether.
How did you find each other?
Why are you still together?
But great to work on where we gofrom here.
It's so true.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:00):
So I think that is the challenge because you may
have an old your own personalview, but in our work, it really
is a sense of you have toentertain all kinds of
possibilities.
So that's why the question islike there's a probably a bias
in the question.
And so in the response, do youdo you engage in their bias or
(16:21):
do you try to expand it?
And yes, I I believe that thedivine lives within, and our
framework is trying to access itin a pretty balanced way.
I mean, if you use the theChristian scriptures about in
moderation in all things, wherethe Apostle Paul talked about
that, well, that's kind of whatwe're saying.
(16:43):
There's a moderation in eachexpression that we have, and how
do we live that out?
And I think connecting to thedivine is the way that happens.
And and yeah, we can have adiscussion about how you define
the divine, because even usingthe word divine, some people
would say back in the old daysit would be new age or you're
watering it down.
When in my mind, God can handleall those things.
SPEAKER_01 (17:06):
I might have mentioned this one time before,
but one of my favorite ancientHebrew sayings is that the only
thing you can say about God isthat you can't say anything
about God.
Because it's because as soon asyou say something about God,
you've put the divine in a box,and the divine can't be
contained in any box we mightcreate.
(17:28):
And that Hebrew traditioncertainly has some very specific
characteristics that noteverybody that would come to
talk to me or to you would hold.
But I do greatly appreciate thatcommitment to recognizing that
the divine is a larger thananything we could conceive in
(17:49):
terms of the creative force ofthe universe, the way in which
we're all connected.
And I will say that I do have abias in that regard, that there
is a connection between all ofhumanity and all of creation
that sometimes peaks through inpowerful ways, and sometimes we
don't pay attention to it atall.
(18:10):
But more and more as you listento the stories of people's
experiences, it's tough to denythis connection that to me
speaks to the divine.
To that end, I eventually landin a place that the best way for
me to understand that connectionis first to become more and more
self-aware of how thatconnection exists within me.
(18:35):
And then I have thisappreciation that it might exist
in you in a different way, butis there.
And if I'm looking forconnection, my connecting bridge
is to say, as you've often triedto teach us, this is how I
think, but I could be wrong.
I would love to know how youthink or how you come to that
(18:56):
conclusion or what's inside ofyou that leads to whatever it is
that we're discussing.
That to me is the bridge to thecollective divine as well as the
divine within for me.
So that's great.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
That's perfectly said.
Yep.
Thanks, Jim.
You have to really, you have toreally take a deep breath and
realize we all experience lifedifferently.
And conversations and askingquestions, that's where we
connect.
And we've gotten away from thata lot, it seems like.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
Let me take this one step further, because this was
the third question that came in.
And it was just very simple.
Could you give us a little bitmore of a description of what an
integrated person looks like?
So when you have somebody you'reworking with, what are some of
the clues that integration ishappening?
You can see it in the way theylive it out.
(19:52):
And I'd like a very black andwhite answer.
SPEAKER_03 (19:55):
So everybody Well, they will wear certain clothes
all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (20:06):
Appreciate your humor, like the things you like.
SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yes, they will agree with mostof the things you say.
Oh, they're completelyintegrated.
Oh man, that's a great question.
It's just a nuanced of you theindividual, without I mean, it
feels like I'm punting a littlebit.
The individual feels something.
Like the other day, I had asituation in at the car wash
(20:32):
where this guy kept yelling atme to put my car in neutral.
And it was in neutral, but ithad it moves a little bit.
So he thought that I was, I wasin gear, and it wasn't.
And he kept yelling at me.
Finally, unconsciously, I just Iscreamed.
I said, it isn't neutral.
And I was like, later I thoughtabout go, okay, that was a
(20:52):
little bit over, a little bitweird.
So even when you know it,there's these unconscious
triggers that can happen thatyou just respond out of
frustration or whatever.
And I think that's why you haveto build into all of this some
sense that there is no perfectway of being.
But after that episode, Ithought, how could I, excuse me,
(21:15):
how could I have reacted better?
I reacted to his energy.
And that's what we always do.
And so being aware of your ownenergy and what you're bringing
to the table is so important,but that just takes practice.
I mean, I, good Lord, I'm 73years old.
Should I have had that reaction?
No, it was hilarious.
Later I went, okay, that wasinteresting.
I still have my moments wheregetting yelled at can just
(21:39):
initiate this crazy responsefrom me.
So I don't know if that answeredthe question very clearly, but
it's an individual journey.
If I react in a way thatsurprises me, how long does it
take me to ask the question,okay, what what happened there?
And I think that's the journey.
There's no, in other words,there's no template to where,
well, I'm in the middle and Andevery given moment, I know where
(22:01):
I need to be.
No, it's it's it's experiencing,it's experiencing life, and
using that as the framework tobe be more aware of it.
Well, that's good.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Thank you.
It's an interesting bridge tothe last question for today, and
that was why do we hit the sameproblem again and again?
Like I I feel like a personmight say, I've gone to therapy.
We've talked about the issuesthat I face.
I've worked months to try andwork through some things.
And then five months later,something triggers me, and I go,
(22:39):
well, I thought I dealt withthat.
In in a we talked earlier abouta religious framework that is
often the case in religiousframeworks where I thought I
took care of this.
I went through what in Christianlanguage would be the confessing
and forgiveness and surrendermodel.
(23:01):
And here I am again facing thesame thing again and again and
again.
Yeah, and that's that's theintegration of the head and the
heart.
SPEAKER_00 (23:08):
Yeah.
A lot of people will have anintellectual ascent and they
understand it and all of thosethings, and then the emotions
kick up and then they getsabotaged because the emotions
are still there.
And that's why on the ongoingprocess is to realize I
understand intellectually, butemotionally I still get
triggered by it.
I can still be affected by it.
(23:28):
That's why I say the insight isonly the beginning.
There has to be movement thatchanges the brain.
And so what is the movement thatI really do understand the
dynamic?
Well, I start catching myselfmore often.
I'm I become more aware of whenI'm being triggered.
I take a deep breath.
That commitment is so important,and I make a different choice to
(23:50):
respond differently to it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
I love the three words that go together for me,
and that is interest, insight,integration.
Like that's kind of theprogression.
Oh, I'm intrigued by this.
I'm interested.
And then there's like an aha.
Oh, now I see how that works,but it's very intellectual.
And then there's the and thenthere's the integration that
(24:13):
brings the emotion in.
And here's where I think dreamsare so powerful.
When I get triggered during theday about what I think is an old
issue, but there's stillunconscious emotion that I've
not addressed.
That trigger, whatever it is, asmell, a scene, somebody in a
(24:34):
car wash that yells, when thattrigger happens and it touches
something that sure, maybe I'veaddressed, but the emotional
weight of that event of thepast, family of origin, looking
back to looking to look forward,to move forward, brings to the
surface once again somethingthat just needs to be processed.
(24:56):
It's not that doesn't need to bethat traumatic.
It just is, it came up again.
And so I'm remembering a griefof having lost my parents and
something reminded me of it.
I'm remembering an anger overgetting looked over on a job
promotion.
And I dealt with it, butsomething triggered the
emotional weight, and it showsup in my dream, or I had a
(25:20):
reaction to it.
The integrated person goes, oh,okay.
This is just a reminder that Istill carry some of that
emotional weight.
That's perfect.
And that emotional weight isessential to our survival for
whatever we face in the future.
So I don't need to condemn it.
I just need to go, oh, that'swhat that is.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Yeah, there it is.
There it is again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As I thought about the situationat the car watch, as simple as
that or as inconsequential asthat might be, for me, it's like
when I feel like I've donesomething and I don't get credit
for it, I didn't, or they don'tunderstand that I've already
done it, that can trigger me.
(26:01):
It's like I'm I'm ahead of you.
I uh it isn't neutral.
But if you keep accusing me thatI didn't know, or I I feel
stupid, or I feel like I'm notenough, or I did something,
yeah, it still triggers that.
So that's that's the greatpoint.
It's like, yeah, that emotionstill lets you know that there's
still a wound in there, but youcan say, oh yeah, there it is
again.
I tell people that all the time.
It's a reminder, oh yeah, it'sstill there.
(26:22):
Okay.
Am I handling it better than Iused to?
Of course I am.
Yeah, the black and whitethinking, excuse me, the black
and white thinking really is I'mgoing to get to a place where
I've solved it and it goes away.
And it's is life is just notthat fortunately or
unfortunately, not that not thatsimple.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think people forget thatour psyche is built for
survival.
So that if something wastraumatizing or difficult or
painful in the past, thatparticular situation, that
story, is used inwardly toprotect us from things in the
(26:58):
future that will bring pain ordanger.
Absolutely.
That's great.
You're right.
And so sometimes it's importantfor us to tell the same story
again.
I was harmed by my teacher,boss, parent, sibling, whatever
it might be.
And that situation wastraumatic, but the psyche uses
that to protect me in thefuture, and it alerts me when
(27:19):
there feels like there's adanger moment again.
So not being believed triggersan emotion that is protective.
And to go, oh yeah, I know wherethat's coming from.
Thank you, body, for protectingme.
However, you can relax.
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
We've got this.
And uh a lot of people won'twon't uh m remember this quote,
but remember danger, WillRobinson, danger.
Yes, lost in space.
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Yeah.
Which is an essential piece ofsurvival for who we are.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Again, the growth is it protected me.
Do I still need to be protectedthat way?
SPEAKER_03 (27:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I use that phrase in intherapy a lot.
Do you still need to do that?
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
That's great.
And a great place for us tostop.
Jim, as always, it's been greatto be with you.
I hope this has been helpful forthe listeners.
And again, if you have anyquestions, we'll hope you shoot
them off.
This has been a joy for us todig into some of these.
Absolutely, do you talk to younext time.
Great.
Bye.
(28:30):
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com, orDoctor Kelly at
inyourdreams.coach.
(28:52):
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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