February 11, 2026 • 25 mins
We explore how mental health concerns intersect with the STIR model and show how balance, flexible thinking, and self-awareness transform relationships. From early dating green flags to parenting stalemates, we lay out practical steps to move toward the middle and reduce projection.
We walk through real-world moments—early dating, high-conflict parenting, and long-term partnership—to show how to spot green flags and build healthier patterns. Flexible thinking becomes a north star: can someone hold their view and truly consider yours? Then comes the essential move to the middle. If you lean toward masculine in energy, practice the softer start of validation. If you lean feminine, practice setting clear limits before soothing. That sequencing flip often unlocks calm, trust, and actual behavior change.
The game changer is a heart shift away from projection. When you stop needing your partner to be a certain way so you can be okay, pressure dissolves and intimacy returns. Strangely, what you wanted often appears once the demand is gone. We also talk about coping when a partner lacks insight, how to maintain self-respect without ultimatums, and why independence and interdependence aren’t opposites but allies when you’re grounded.
If you’re mapping your style, healing through depression or anxiety, or simply craving fewer blowups and more connection, this conversation gives you practical steps: name your base style, anticipate your risk points, and practice the opposite skill set on purpose. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a hopeful roadmap, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I'm here with Jim Shaley.
I'm your co-host, Dee Kelly, anduh we are trying to explore the
inner landscape of personalityand how that might help us live
in healthier ways, both forourselves and in relationship.
Jim, great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Welcome back, Dee.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Thank you.
We are in a series of doing QAwith questions that have come in
from our listeners.
And we have a couple today thatwe'd like to look at, and they
kind of take us in oppositedirections of the spectrum.
One was a question about domental health issues affect how
(00:53):
we look at personality uh stylesas we've been discussing the
STER model of stabilizer,transformer, initiator, and
responder.
Do mental health issues affectthat matrix, that uh outline
that we've been working on?
And the flip side of that is uma question that has to do with
(01:16):
those who come across ashealthy, the kind of key things
you're looking for.
We've touched on a lot of thedetails that we look for over
the course of this entireseason, but the listener was
looking for a little bit of asummary of how do I know myself
or if I'm early on in arelationship, what am I looking
for that exhibits some hope?
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Yeah, that's those are great questions.
Uh uh again, the key ingredientin all of this is of course, if
there's someone who's sufferingwith mental illness, if they're
actively seeking treatment, thisuh model can absolutely help.
And unfortunately, a lot ofpeople find themselves in a
relationship with someone whomay not be in treatment and may
(01:59):
not even see uh how their styleis affecting others or even
themselves.
So that's always the challenge,is getting it is getting to that
point where someone begins toinvestigate how they're being
experienced or how or howthey're coming across or how
someone's affecting them.
That's that's the intangiblepart of it.
So if they're if they're seekingtreatment and they finally have
(02:21):
gotten to a place of realizing,okay, I need to adjust some
things, that's the beginning ofof health.
And yes, absolutely, the the theuh model can help.
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
And it I it's fair to say that everyone, anyone, um
can go through a season wheremental health takes a dip and
subject to a lot of thingsthrough experiences, um, genetic
makeup can sometimes affect asusceptibility to some things.
(02:52):
Um, and how we've uh when wetalk about family of origin, uh
looking back to move forward,that family of origin can have a
great effect on mental healthissues.
Um, so I think maybe I could askthis.
You tell me if I'm wrong, but itseems intuitively that the four
(03:13):
different personality stylesthat there might be a propensity
uh toward particular mentalhealth issues.
For example, responder.
Um, somebody who doesn't usethat personality style in a
healthy way, what might be a uma mental health problem that a
(03:34):
person who's a responder mightexperience?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Uh that's a that's uh intriguing.
Uh the responder, remember, theythey take care of others.
So uh the extreme expression ofthat could take several
different forms, but one of thebasic forms would be I'm
overfunctioning, so I'm takingcare of everyone else, but not
myself.
So for me, uh midlife oftentimesthe responder will come into
(04:01):
therapy because they'reincredibly depressed.
So the the the mood disorderthat they're experiencing is is
not they're not understanding itat all because they've given,
they've given, they've given toeverybody, they've tried to help
everybody, and it's hard forthem to see that that's actually
become dysfunctional for them.
And so that could lead to areally profound, even a major
(04:24):
depressive disorder.
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
And just to be clear, all four personality
styles, uh any one of them couldexperience depression, but you
just described kind of a pathwayto that if somebody's overly
functioning.
Um, transformer, do the samekind of thing.
We've talked a couple of timesabout transformers um having a
natural um response mechanismthat could take them down the
(04:49):
pathway of addictions.
Right.
Um, and that's a way by whichthey respond to their emotions
that are kind of a result oftheir personality style.
Is that fair?
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
That's fair.
And and that again, thatprobably loads more on the uh
emotional quadrants as far aspersonality disorders.
Okay.
So they probably would becomemore likely to slide into a
histrionic style, which isattention-seeking, uh
flamboyant, just having a lot offun because again, they're
spontaneous and they'reimpulsive.
Well, a lot of people that havehistrionic personality styles
(05:24):
have that same expression, or itcould even be borderline.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Sure.
And for any of these, just toclarify, um, you'd be wise to
get some professional help.
SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
Um, and sometimes you can see that happening with
someone and you you try to help,but ultimately that goes back to
what I said earlier.
They have to have some sense ofinsight that I'm the common
denominator here.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Yeah.
unknown (05:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Yeah.
A desire to get help.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Right.
Exactly.
It would be like identifyingwhen my my bias of those four uh
styles is too excessive.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's shift to the masculineside of that equation, the uh
initiator who is always movingforward, always taking action,
just has a uh a bias towardmovement.
Um what what would be asusceptible area in terms of
mental health for thatindividual?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Yeah, it would depend if they if they are a
strong initiator, which meansthey probably load more on a
prototypical narcissisticstrain, which would then mean
that they struggle with having aconscience or realizing how they
affect others or empathy.
So they could become kind of anaggressive personality disorder,
which basically means that theywould load on uh not having much
(06:47):
self-reflection or conscience.
And so they would be excessiveand take advantage of people.
Uh, you know, in the corporateworld or takeover artists, they
go in and destroy a company tosell it.
That could be the extreme ofthat.
Now, not everybody, noteverybody that does that has
that trait, because sometimescompanies need to be bought and
sold, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
But yeah.
Thank you.
Great one.
Then the fourth one uh that wewould mention of the four
personality styles, thestabilizer.
That person uh in a healthy wayis bringing order, rules,
boundaries, but taken to extremewould be what?
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
That's that's an interesting one.
Uh it would be like adictatorial again.
They would demand that they havetheir way.
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
Incredibly rigid.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Yeah.
And what personality disorder isthat?
Uh it would probably again loadon uh that's a great question.
If someone is reallydictatorial, uh again, they
don't care how they're affectingothers, so that feels more like
(08:01):
a narcissistic tra strain aswell.
The masculine is moresusceptible to the prototypical
expression of narcissism.
Whereas the feminine would beprototypical uh to the extreme
of of the mood disorders thatare more emotionally driven
because it's former feminine.
So they'd be more susceptible tohistrionics or borderline.
(08:22):
Or bipolar, I'm assuming aswell.
Or bipolar, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
Again, though, does thatnecessarily mean gender specific
of male or female, or is it themasculine or feminine
expression?
And it's just a person who has abent toward a more feminine
expression would be susceptibleto that.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, once again, uh it's agreat question, uh, but there
(08:48):
are so many tentacles to Yeah,there's no yeah, there's no
clear-cut uh uh expression ofany of these things.
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
So we're just trying to give a general sense of what
could be happening in someone.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
So uh but I think the bottom line from what the
person was asking is that um itthe model itself can still be
incredibly helpful if somebodyis seeking greater
self-awareness, they're seekinghelp, the more they are
self-aware of their natural umtendencies or direction, uh, the
(09:21):
better they will be at beingable to recognize the issues
that they're facing.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Yes.
And the the another advantage islet's say you're in a
relationship with someone who'snot self-aware.
And so, and I do this a lot inmy practice, is helping someone
cope.
They don't want to, they don'twant to get out of the
relationship, they don't want todivorce in a clay in the case of
a marriage, but they want tostay.
And so a lot of conversationsabout how do you manage yourself
(09:49):
in response to someone who isn'tinterested or doesn't even see
that they have these certaintraits that are dysfunctional in
their relationship.
It's difficult, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
Yeah.
That's to me a perfect bridge tothe other half that we were
talking about when we introducedtoday's episode.
And that is what you look forwhen you're looking for health
and balance, uh, both inyourself and in relationship.
But since you started, pardonme, since you just ended that
section with saying how you cancope if you're in a relationship
(10:22):
you don't want to leave withsomebody who's struggling with
some things, let's take that astep further.
Um, early on in a relationship,you're looking for clues of
health, which I think is anappropriate thing to do.
Um and so I'm entering into youknow second, third date with
(10:43):
somebody.
What kinds of things uh do youthink are part of this natural
human interaction that um thatwe ought to pay attention to?
And I I'm gonna start off withsomething we talked about last
week, and that is the notion offlexible thinking.
(11:04):
If you're having conversationsabout life, about somebody's
work, about political issues,the notion of flexible thinking
is one of those wonderful littlecards you can watch be played uh
by somebody you're dating as towhether or not they're
incredibly rigid or and they canagree with you and still be
(11:27):
incredibly rigid.
So that's easy to get suckedinto uh somebody who thinks like
I do, but there's noflexibility.
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
Absolutely.
And that's that's a reallyinteresting uh dynamic in the
sense that especially if you'regetting to know someone and
there's a strong attraction, youyou'll actually act as if, okay,
yeah, I understand that.
But when it comes down to it,you know, a year into the
relationship, they're reallyrigid and they're not budging.
And so they're not as flexibleas they appear.
(11:56):
They can see your point of view,but they also really hold on to
their own view, which isn't agood or a bad.
It's it's how open they are toaccepting a different point of
view, truly, and not just giveit lip service.
So that's one of those thingsthat's just so hard to know in
the beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Yeah.
So, because of that, I'm gonnatake us back to where I think
this should begin, and that isthe greater self-awareness you
have, the less susceptible youare to being fooled into some of
those kinds of things.
If you know that you'renaturally attracted to something
that's not very developed in youand you're unconscious about
(12:34):
those things, that'sproblematic.
So let's go back to theindividual, and um we're
probably not going to be able toidentify famous people because
we don't know what they're likein their private life.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
So let's just it's so true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Yeah.
So let's just talk about anindividual um who tends toward
the masculine expression ofpersonality.
Or balance, they need to payattention in their own life to
what a feminine expressionbrings to their thinking
process, to their decisionmaking, to their relationship
(13:11):
and interactions.
So finding ways to give voice tothe feminine side of their
journey.
Right?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
Just not easy.
Yeah, that's why there's a longyes.
I mean, I have a couple couplesright now that that's exactly
where they're at, trying to getthe strong masculine this sense
to soften up and to realize howtheir strong sense of how things
(13:42):
are supposed to be is affectingtheir relationship.
And it's it's challengingbecause their spouse is
incredibly emotional, incrediblysoft, incredibly nurturing, and
they're then and again theirconflict is over raising
children.
So what always happens is theyover they try to overcompensate
(14:02):
for the judgment they've madethey've made about the other
style.
So if the mom is too coddling,the father will be, in this
case, the father will be really,really rigid, and just and they
argue about that.
So now it's not only affectingtheir their the parent, the the
kids, it's affecting themarriage.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
Their relationship, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Absolutely.
And so, and so, and I say it, Isaid it this week a couple of
times, to say you gotta softenup and you gotta be you gotta be
a little bit harder.
It's that balance thing again.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
It is it is moving toward the middle, absolutely,
absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
So the so the feminine cycle has to set better
boundaries, and the masculinehas to be able to give a break
and say, Hey, come here, kid,and have a conversation.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
And again, it's not necessarily the male or female
that's doing this.
If the male has the strongfeminine um attributes of
nurturing and coddling, theyneed to move further toward the
center of setting appropriateboundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
And the couples, the couples basically looking at
each other saying, Well, if youjust be softer, or if you just
be harder, we'd be fine, ratherthan looking at themselves and
saying, What we basically ourwhole framework is about.
Wait a minute, where do I needto move?
And I've had such nice progresswhen I get a father who is just
so uh accountability driven, andI can't let my kid get away with
(15:26):
that, to walk alongside that kidand validate the feelings first,
which is the softer side.
I said, you can still, and youhave so much more leverage to be
able to have a conversation withyour kid when you've validated
their feelings.
And I said, the soft has to comefirst.
Now the reverse is uh is equallyas true.
If the feminine energy has to bea little bit harsh at first, has
(15:47):
to set a boundary, and then theycan use their natural softness
after they set the boundary.
And again, it's all internalfrom that perspective, like
we've talked about over ourepisodes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
I think one of the characteristics of many
relationships with whom I havethe privilege of working is that
there is at somewhat of anunconscious level, this
resistance to be the first oneto move toward the middle.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
Yes.
It's like it's like another wayI frame that is the control
issue.
Like we talked about.
I'm gonna give up ground.
No way.
I'm the only one holding theright spot.
Exactly.
If I if I wasn't parenting ourkids the way I'm parenting,
they'd be a mess.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
Yeah.
They'd be in this office insteadof me.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
And that's why when I when I frame it for couples, I
will say, you know, when youcome into the office, typically
you're you're facing away fromeach other.
I said, I can maybe explain somethings so you start looking at
each other.
I said, but then vulnerabilitystarts where I'll take a step
forward by being vulnerable.
But if the other person doesn'tmatch that, I'll take a step
back.
And I said, that's why the danceis so delicate as far as getting
(16:55):
to a place where I can see howI'm affecting things so much so
that I can risk thevulnerability.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
Yeah.
And I think you probablyunderstated it.
Um, if the response isn't what Ithink it should be, I might take
two steps back.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then they fire me as atherapist because I suck.
SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
Yeah.
Um, serious issues uh with hardsolutions, but when you begin to
honestly um assess what's goingon, it really does open up your
eyes to um the dynamics thattake place.
So that given take on thefeminine masculine expressions,
(17:38):
the same thing is true if I fallinto a strong dynamic expression
and I'm trying to find ahealthier place for myself, I
need to give attention to a morestatic expression of that
energy, a more stabilizingresponder voice.
Conversely, if my natural placeis to be in that static,
(18:00):
organizational, systematic uhway of living, I need to pay
attention internally to thethings that bring movement in my
life, that pull me to action,that lead me toward uh greater
valuing of intuition.
And that's a way by which I canget healthier so that when I
(18:20):
move into a relationship, I amnot desperately needing that
other person to fill a blankplace in my life.
Yeah.
Um, but I I'll have to say thatwith working with individuals
who aren't in relationship, um,it's sometimes difficult to get
them to see the value of thatshift because they have strong
(18:42):
biases against that other way ofexpression.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Yeah.
Particularly if they've beenharmed by somebody who falls
into that other side of thescale.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
And then you gotta, and then that's you have to work
through that victim mode and allthe other stuff that come with
it to pres preserve our sense ofself.
We we use so many strategies toprotect ourselves from being
hurt ever again that we closeourselves off.
And I think that's another valueof what we're talking about as
far as being balanced.
So wait a minute, if I'm I'mfeeling like I'm hurt all the
(19:16):
time, so well, how do I need totake care of myself?
And again, if I'm really hurt,the quick response is somebody
externally is supposed to comehelp me heal.
And we're looking for thatperson.
Well, and it can be a therapistto go to a therapist, which can
be the the start becauseultimately a therapist
represents self-awareness, andso that can be the start of it.
(19:37):
But at some point I have tointernalize that to a place of
wait a minute, nobody's comingto rescue.
I had a late a lady yesterdaysay, you know, I've realized
over and over no one's coming torescue me.
Except me and you, of course.
We're coming to rescue people.
So uh yeah, I'm glad youclarified that.
Yeah, because we're the only twoleft that can rescue people.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
That's that's right, the only two left.
The the movement withinrelationships, when there is a
healthy balance, an appreciationfor the other, flexible
thinking, I think that there isan interesting dynamic that
(20:19):
sometimes is difficult toexplain, where there is a
healthy independence and adesire for interdependence.
A healthy place where I'm notdependent on the other for the
essentials of what it means tobe healthy and happy, but it
(20:43):
becomes so enhanced when there'ssomebody who's in that dance
doing a similar kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
Absolutely.
That I mean, that yeah, we don'twant to uh give the impression
that you can like live on anisland forever.
So I think that's a great point.
When you get really kind ofhealthy internally, absolutely
we want to be interdependent.
We want somebody to share ourlife with, we want somebody to
engage with.
And when you're doing thattogether with someone, it's
really, really rewarding.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
Yeah.
I I can recall some times in mylife where the journey toward
that place of recognizing howmuch my projections were thrown
onto my my partner, my spouse,realizing that what I thought
were issues of conflictexternally were actually issues
(21:35):
of conflict internally.
And when I gave up the need togive outward expression to that
and wrestle with what was goingon inside, all of a sudden the
weight in that area of ourrelationship, it just began to
like evaporate, like a fog thatwhen the sun comes out and it
(21:57):
starts burning at the fog.
And no longer being dependentupon a response for me to be
satisfied.
That I don't know how to say it,other than it was a complete
game changer.
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
No, that's that's exactly what happens.
You internalized that part ofwhat you were projecting out on
someone else is supposed to do.
And when you realize that, yeah,that's why when I talk about a
heart change, that's what Imean.
My heart has shifted so much sothat I no longer need that.
And the whole relationshipchanges.
And oftentimes the person thatI've wanted something from
begins to give it becausethere's no negative pressure.
(22:36):
That unconscious pressure isfascinating.
And I wish there was a way tokind of quantify it and be able
to make it visible because it'sso true.
If I give up your need to be acertain way, genuinely, I never
hardly ever think about itagain.
So many times you startexpressing the very thing that I
wanted.
And I, you know, I know it'sprobably metaphysical or
(22:59):
whatever as far as how the brainfunctions, but again, I'm
projecting.
The power of projection isintense.
So I need you to be a certainway, and you better be that.
And if you're not, my life'smiserable.
Wait a minute.
No, you're projecting.
So if you take that on it, theheart shifts, and yes, so much
of the time it the toxicitydissolves so quickly because
(23:20):
you're basically projecting yourown toxicity onto someone else.
SPEAKER_01 (23:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
There's a lot there, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
But there's also this wonderful realization when
you begin to put it intopractice, that all of a sudden
you also begin to see thatothers, and in this case, a
partner, a spouse, when they dothat projection, you all of a
sudden take it far lesspersonally.
It's like, oh, they're juststruggling with stuff of their
(23:48):
past, their life, bad day.
It's not me.
Um, and if it is me, I I cantake that.
That's fine.
Uh, it changes how you receive,not only how you project.
Oh, yeah.
That's a great point.
That's a great point.
Um, I think uh this is a greatplace to bring an end to this
session.
I um we're going to, as uhending to the season, kind of
(24:13):
summarize all four personalitystyles, give a little context to
each one of them to try andbring this season to a close.
But it felt like this was areally important contrast
between mental health issues andtrying to move toward a healthy
place and balance.
Um, and so thanks, Jim.
This has been a greatdiscussion.
Great.
Thanks, Dave.
(24:34):
Always good to talk with you.
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy, Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
(24:54):
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Doctor
Shali at AFCcounselors.com, orDoctor Kelly at
inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I'm here with Jim Shaley.
I'm your co-host, Dee Kelly, anduh we are trying to explore the
inner landscape of personalityand how that might help us live
in healthier ways, both forourselves and in relationship.
Jim, great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Welcome back, Dee.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Thank you.
We are in a series of doing QAwith questions that have come in
from our listeners.
And we have a couple today thatwe'd like to look at, and they
kind of take us in oppositedirections of the spectrum.
One was a question about domental health issues affect how
(00:53):
we look at personality uh stylesas we've been discussing the
STER model of stabilizer,transformer, initiator, and
responder.
Do mental health issues affectthat matrix, that uh outline
that we've been working on?
And the flip side of that is uma question that has to do with
(01:16):
those who come across ashealthy, the kind of key things
you're looking for.
We've touched on a lot of thedetails that we look for over
the course of this entireseason, but the listener was
looking for a little bit of asummary of how do I know myself
or if I'm early on in arelationship, what am I looking
for that exhibits some hope?
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Yeah, that's those are great questions.
Uh uh again, the key ingredientin all of this is of course, if
there's someone who's sufferingwith mental illness, if they're
actively seeking treatment, thisuh model can absolutely help.
And unfortunately, a lot ofpeople find themselves in a
relationship with someone whomay not be in treatment and may
(01:59):
not even see uh how their styleis affecting others or even
themselves.
So that's always the challenge,is getting it is getting to that
point where someone begins toinvestigate how they're being
experienced or how or howthey're coming across or how
someone's affecting them.
That's that's the intangiblepart of it.
So if they're if they're seekingtreatment and they finally have
(02:21):
gotten to a place of realizing,okay, I need to adjust some
things, that's the beginning ofof health.
And yes, absolutely, the the theuh model can help.
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
And it I it's fair to say that everyone, anyone, um
can go through a season wheremental health takes a dip and
subject to a lot of thingsthrough experiences, um, genetic
makeup can sometimes affect asusceptibility to some things.
(02:52):
Um, and how we've uh when wetalk about family of origin, uh
looking back to move forward,that family of origin can have a
great effect on mental healthissues.
Um, so I think maybe I could askthis.
You tell me if I'm wrong, but itseems intuitively that the four
(03:13):
different personality stylesthat there might be a propensity
uh toward particular mentalhealth issues.
For example, responder.
Um, somebody who doesn't usethat personality style in a
healthy way, what might be a uma mental health problem that a
(03:34):
person who's a responder mightexperience?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Uh that's a that's uh intriguing.
Uh the responder, remember, theythey take care of others.
So uh the extreme expression ofthat could take several
different forms, but one of thebasic forms would be I'm
overfunctioning, so I'm takingcare of everyone else, but not
myself.
So for me, uh midlife oftentimesthe responder will come into
(04:01):
therapy because they'reincredibly depressed.
So the the the mood disorderthat they're experiencing is is
not they're not understanding itat all because they've given,
they've given, they've given toeverybody, they've tried to help
everybody, and it's hard forthem to see that that's actually
become dysfunctional for them.
And so that could lead to areally profound, even a major
(04:24):
depressive disorder.
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
And just to be clear, all four personality
styles, uh any one of them couldexperience depression, but you
just described kind of a pathwayto that if somebody's overly
functioning.
Um, transformer, do the samekind of thing.
We've talked a couple of timesabout transformers um having a
natural um response mechanismthat could take them down the
(04:49):
pathway of addictions.
Right.
Um, and that's a way by whichthey respond to their emotions
that are kind of a result oftheir personality style.
Is that fair?
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
That's fair.
And and that again, thatprobably loads more on the uh
emotional quadrants as far aspersonality disorders.
Okay.
So they probably would becomemore likely to slide into a
histrionic style, which isattention-seeking, uh
flamboyant, just having a lot offun because again, they're
spontaneous and they'reimpulsive.
Well, a lot of people that havehistrionic personality styles
(05:24):
have that same expression, or itcould even be borderline.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Sure.
And for any of these, just toclarify, um, you'd be wise to
get some professional help.
SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
Um, and sometimes you can see that happening with
someone and you you try to help,but ultimately that goes back to
what I said earlier.
They have to have some sense ofinsight that I'm the common
denominator here.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Yeah.
unknown (05:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Yeah.
A desire to get help.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Right.
Exactly.
It would be like identifyingwhen my my bias of those four uh
styles is too excessive.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's shift to the masculineside of that equation, the uh
initiator who is always movingforward, always taking action,
just has a uh a bias towardmovement.
Um what what would be asusceptible area in terms of
mental health for thatindividual?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Yeah, it would depend if they if they are a
strong initiator, which meansthey probably load more on a
prototypical narcissisticstrain, which would then mean
that they struggle with having aconscience or realizing how they
affect others or empathy.
So they could become kind of anaggressive personality disorder,
which basically means that theywould load on uh not having much
(06:47):
self-reflection or conscience.
And so they would be excessiveand take advantage of people.
Uh, you know, in the corporateworld or takeover artists, they
go in and destroy a company tosell it.
That could be the extreme ofthat.
Now, not everybody, noteverybody that does that has
that trait, because sometimescompanies need to be bought and
sold, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
But yeah.
Thank you.
Great one.
Then the fourth one uh that wewould mention of the four
personality styles, thestabilizer.
That person uh in a healthy wayis bringing order, rules,
boundaries, but taken to extremewould be what?
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
That's that's an interesting one.
Uh it would be like adictatorial again.
They would demand that they havetheir way.
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
Incredibly rigid.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Yeah.
And what personality disorder isthat?
Uh it would probably again loadon uh that's a great question.
If someone is reallydictatorial, uh again, they
don't care how they're affectingothers, so that feels more like
(08:01):
a narcissistic tra strain aswell.
The masculine is moresusceptible to the prototypical
expression of narcissism.
Whereas the feminine would beprototypical uh to the extreme
of of the mood disorders thatare more emotionally driven
because it's former feminine.
So they'd be more susceptible tohistrionics or borderline.
(08:22):
Or bipolar, I'm assuming aswell.
Or bipolar, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
Again, though, does thatnecessarily mean gender specific
of male or female, or is it themasculine or feminine
expression?
And it's just a person who has abent toward a more feminine
expression would be susceptibleto that.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, once again, uh it's agreat question, uh, but there
(08:48):
are so many tentacles to Yeah,there's no yeah, there's no
clear-cut uh uh expression ofany of these things.
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
So we're just trying to give a general sense of what
could be happening in someone.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
So uh but I think the bottom line from what the
person was asking is that um itthe model itself can still be
incredibly helpful if somebodyis seeking greater
self-awareness, they're seekinghelp, the more they are
self-aware of their natural umtendencies or direction, uh, the
(09:21):
better they will be at beingable to recognize the issues
that they're facing.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Yes.
And the the another advantage islet's say you're in a
relationship with someone who'snot self-aware.
And so, and I do this a lot inmy practice, is helping someone
cope.
They don't want to, they don'twant to get out of the
relationship, they don't want todivorce in a clay in the case of
a marriage, but they want tostay.
And so a lot of conversationsabout how do you manage yourself
(09:49):
in response to someone who isn'tinterested or doesn't even see
that they have these certaintraits that are dysfunctional in
their relationship.
It's difficult, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
Yeah.
That's to me a perfect bridge tothe other half that we were
talking about when we introducedtoday's episode.
And that is what you look forwhen you're looking for health
and balance, uh, both inyourself and in relationship.
But since you started, pardonme, since you just ended that
section with saying how you cancope if you're in a relationship
(10:22):
you don't want to leave withsomebody who's struggling with
some things, let's take that astep further.
Um, early on in a relationship,you're looking for clues of
health, which I think is anappropriate thing to do.
Um and so I'm entering into youknow second, third date with
(10:43):
somebody.
What kinds of things uh do youthink are part of this natural
human interaction that um thatwe ought to pay attention to?
And I I'm gonna start off withsomething we talked about last
week, and that is the notion offlexible thinking.
(11:04):
If you're having conversationsabout life, about somebody's
work, about political issues,the notion of flexible thinking
is one of those wonderful littlecards you can watch be played uh
by somebody you're dating as towhether or not they're
incredibly rigid or and they canagree with you and still be
(11:27):
incredibly rigid.
So that's easy to get suckedinto uh somebody who thinks like
I do, but there's noflexibility.
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
Absolutely.
And that's that's a reallyinteresting uh dynamic in the
sense that especially if you'regetting to know someone and
there's a strong attraction, youyou'll actually act as if, okay,
yeah, I understand that.
But when it comes down to it,you know, a year into the
relationship, they're reallyrigid and they're not budging.
And so they're not as flexibleas they appear.
(11:56):
They can see your point of view,but they also really hold on to
their own view, which isn't agood or a bad.
It's it's how open they are toaccepting a different point of
view, truly, and not just giveit lip service.
So that's one of those thingsthat's just so hard to know in
the beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Yeah.
So, because of that, I'm gonnatake us back to where I think
this should begin, and that isthe greater self-awareness you
have, the less susceptible youare to being fooled into some of
those kinds of things.
If you know that you'renaturally attracted to something
that's not very developed in youand you're unconscious about
(12:34):
those things, that'sproblematic.
So let's go back to theindividual, and um we're
probably not going to be able toidentify famous people because
we don't know what they're likein their private life.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
So let's just it's so true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Yeah.
So let's just talk about anindividual um who tends toward
the masculine expression ofpersonality.
Or balance, they need to payattention in their own life to
what a feminine expressionbrings to their thinking
process, to their decisionmaking, to their relationship
(13:11):
and interactions.
So finding ways to give voice tothe feminine side of their
journey.
Right?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
Just not easy.
Yeah, that's why there's a longyes.
I mean, I have a couple couplesright now that that's exactly
where they're at, trying to getthe strong masculine this sense
to soften up and to realize howtheir strong sense of how things
(13:42):
are supposed to be is affectingtheir relationship.
And it's it's challengingbecause their spouse is
incredibly emotional, incrediblysoft, incredibly nurturing, and
they're then and again theirconflict is over raising
children.
So what always happens is theyover they try to overcompensate
(14:02):
for the judgment they've madethey've made about the other
style.
So if the mom is too coddling,the father will be, in this
case, the father will be really,really rigid, and just and they
argue about that.
So now it's not only affectingtheir their the parent, the the
kids, it's affecting themarriage.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
Their relationship, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Absolutely.
And so, and so, and I say it, Isaid it this week a couple of
times, to say you gotta softenup and you gotta be you gotta be
a little bit harder.
It's that balance thing again.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
It is it is moving toward the middle, absolutely,
absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
So the so the feminine cycle has to set better
boundaries, and the masculinehas to be able to give a break
and say, Hey, come here, kid,and have a conversation.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
And again, it's not necessarily the male or female
that's doing this.
If the male has the strongfeminine um attributes of
nurturing and coddling, theyneed to move further toward the
center of setting appropriateboundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
And the couples, the couples basically looking at
each other saying, Well, if youjust be softer, or if you just
be harder, we'd be fine, ratherthan looking at themselves and
saying, What we basically ourwhole framework is about.
Wait a minute, where do I needto move?
And I've had such nice progresswhen I get a father who is just
so uh accountability driven, andI can't let my kid get away with
(15:26):
that, to walk alongside that kidand validate the feelings first,
which is the softer side.
I said, you can still, and youhave so much more leverage to be
able to have a conversation withyour kid when you've validated
their feelings.
And I said, the soft has to comefirst.
Now the reverse is uh is equallyas true.
If the feminine energy has to bea little bit harsh at first, has
(15:47):
to set a boundary, and then theycan use their natural softness
after they set the boundary.
And again, it's all internalfrom that perspective, like
we've talked about over ourepisodes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
I think one of the characteristics of many
relationships with whom I havethe privilege of working is that
there is at somewhat of anunconscious level, this
resistance to be the first oneto move toward the middle.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
Yes.
It's like it's like another wayI frame that is the control
issue.
Like we talked about.
I'm gonna give up ground.
No way.
I'm the only one holding theright spot.
Exactly.
If I if I wasn't parenting ourkids the way I'm parenting,
they'd be a mess.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
Yeah.
They'd be in this office insteadof me.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
And that's why when I when I frame it for couples, I
will say, you know, when youcome into the office, typically
you're you're facing away fromeach other.
I said, I can maybe explain somethings so you start looking at
each other.
I said, but then vulnerabilitystarts where I'll take a step
forward by being vulnerable.
But if the other person doesn'tmatch that, I'll take a step
back.
And I said, that's why the danceis so delicate as far as getting
(16:55):
to a place where I can see howI'm affecting things so much so
that I can risk thevulnerability.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
Yeah.
And I think you probablyunderstated it.
Um, if the response isn't what Ithink it should be, I might take
two steps back.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then they fire me as atherapist because I suck.
SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
Yeah.
Um, serious issues uh with hardsolutions, but when you begin to
honestly um assess what's goingon, it really does open up your
eyes to um the dynamics thattake place.
So that given take on thefeminine masculine expressions,
(17:38):
the same thing is true if I fallinto a strong dynamic expression
and I'm trying to find ahealthier place for myself, I
need to give attention to a morestatic expression of that
energy, a more stabilizingresponder voice.
Conversely, if my natural placeis to be in that static,
(18:00):
organizational, systematic uhway of living, I need to pay
attention internally to thethings that bring movement in my
life, that pull me to action,that lead me toward uh greater
valuing of intuition.
And that's a way by which I canget healthier so that when I
(18:20):
move into a relationship, I amnot desperately needing that
other person to fill a blankplace in my life.
Yeah.
Um, but I I'll have to say thatwith working with individuals
who aren't in relationship, um,it's sometimes difficult to get
them to see the value of thatshift because they have strong
(18:42):
biases against that other way ofexpression.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Yeah.
Particularly if they've beenharmed by somebody who falls
into that other side of thescale.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
And then you gotta, and then that's you have to work
through that victim mode and allthe other stuff that come with
it to pres preserve our sense ofself.
We we use so many strategies toprotect ourselves from being
hurt ever again that we closeourselves off.
And I think that's another valueof what we're talking about as
far as being balanced.
So wait a minute, if I'm I'mfeeling like I'm hurt all the
(19:16):
time, so well, how do I need totake care of myself?
And again, if I'm really hurt,the quick response is somebody
externally is supposed to comehelp me heal.
And we're looking for thatperson.
Well, and it can be a therapistto go to a therapist, which can
be the the start becauseultimately a therapist
represents self-awareness, andso that can be the start of it.
(19:37):
But at some point I have tointernalize that to a place of
wait a minute, nobody's comingto rescue.
I had a late a lady yesterdaysay, you know, I've realized
over and over no one's coming torescue me.
Except me and you, of course.
We're coming to rescue people.
So uh yeah, I'm glad youclarified that.
Yeah, because we're the only twoleft that can rescue people.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
That's that's right, the only two left.
The the movement withinrelationships, when there is a
healthy balance, an appreciationfor the other, flexible
thinking, I think that there isan interesting dynamic that
(20:19):
sometimes is difficult toexplain, where there is a
healthy independence and adesire for interdependence.
A healthy place where I'm notdependent on the other for the
essentials of what it means tobe healthy and happy, but it
(20:43):
becomes so enhanced when there'ssomebody who's in that dance
doing a similar kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
Absolutely.
That I mean, that yeah, we don'twant to uh give the impression
that you can like live on anisland forever.
So I think that's a great point.
When you get really kind ofhealthy internally, absolutely
we want to be interdependent.
We want somebody to share ourlife with, we want somebody to
engage with.
And when you're doing thattogether with someone, it's
really, really rewarding.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
Yeah.
I I can recall some times in mylife where the journey toward
that place of recognizing howmuch my projections were thrown
onto my my partner, my spouse,realizing that what I thought
were issues of conflictexternally were actually issues
(21:35):
of conflict internally.
And when I gave up the need togive outward expression to that
and wrestle with what was goingon inside, all of a sudden the
weight in that area of ourrelationship, it just began to
like evaporate, like a fog thatwhen the sun comes out and it
(21:57):
starts burning at the fog.
And no longer being dependentupon a response for me to be
satisfied.
That I don't know how to say it,other than it was a complete
game changer.
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
No, that's that's exactly what happens.
You internalized that part ofwhat you were projecting out on
someone else is supposed to do.
And when you realize that, yeah,that's why when I talk about a
heart change, that's what Imean.
My heart has shifted so much sothat I no longer need that.
And the whole relationshipchanges.
And oftentimes the person thatI've wanted something from
begins to give it becausethere's no negative pressure.
(22:36):
That unconscious pressure isfascinating.
And I wish there was a way tokind of quantify it and be able
to make it visible because it'sso true.
If I give up your need to be acertain way, genuinely, I never
hardly ever think about itagain.
So many times you startexpressing the very thing that I
wanted.
And I, you know, I know it'sprobably metaphysical or
(22:59):
whatever as far as how the brainfunctions, but again, I'm
projecting.
The power of projection isintense.
So I need you to be a certainway, and you better be that.
And if you're not, my life'smiserable.
Wait a minute.
No, you're projecting.
So if you take that on it, theheart shifts, and yes, so much
of the time it the toxicitydissolves so quickly because
(23:20):
you're basically projecting yourown toxicity onto someone else.
SPEAKER_01 (23:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
There's a lot there, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
But there's also this wonderful realization when
you begin to put it intopractice, that all of a sudden
you also begin to see thatothers, and in this case, a
partner, a spouse, when they dothat projection, you all of a
sudden take it far lesspersonally.
It's like, oh, they're juststruggling with stuff of their
(23:48):
past, their life, bad day.
It's not me.
Um, and if it is me, I I cantake that.
That's fine.
Uh, it changes how you receive,not only how you project.
Oh, yeah.
That's a great point.
That's a great point.
Um, I think uh this is a greatplace to bring an end to this
session.
I um we're going to, as uhending to the season, kind of
(24:13):
summarize all four personalitystyles, give a little context to
each one of them to try andbring this season to a close.
But it felt like this was areally important contrast
between mental health issues andtrying to move toward a healthy
place and balance.
Um, and so thanks, Jim.
This has been a greatdiscussion.
Great.
Thanks, Dave.
(24:34):
Always good to talk with you.
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy, Coaching and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
(24:54):
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Doctor
Shali at AFCcounselors.com, orDoctor Kelly at
inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
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