February 18, 2026 • 27 mins
We dig into why simple questions can feel like attacks, how to pause before defenses take over, and what healthy masculine and feminine responses sound like when tensions rise. We connect the dots between conflict, self-love for responders, and dreams that process the emotions we ignore by day.
• how interpretation turns questions into accusations
• the pause that makes space for truth and choice
• toxic vs healthy masculine and feminine patterns
• using I-statements without losing your voice
• why deep care makes triggers sharper
• steps for responders to practice self-love across quadrants
• customizing the model with your own language
• dreams as emotional recalibration and inner balance cues
• applying dream themes to daytime communication
If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here
And until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm here with my co-host, JimShalley.
Good to be with you, Jim.
Good to be with you, D.
As usual.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
We've been what what episode is this?
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
This is episode 563.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Of which we've done 17 of them.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Something like that.
We are exploring personality andhow it gets expressed
relationally and engagement inthe world and vocationally,
trying to help people see amodel that would help them in
terms of their balance andhealth.
We've had a number of questionsfrom listeners, and we thought
(00:55):
that we would continue just witha few more that have come in.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
The first one that I'd like to hand off to you is
before you continue, there wasone that I know uh sorry to
interrupt, but there's one thatactually said, when are you
going to talk about dreams?
So sometime probably we need tofocus more on the dream side of
it sometimes.
Anyway.
I don't want to forget.
I didn't want to make forget tomake that comment.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
I appreciate that.
So then let's jump down to thelast question here, which has to
do with dreams.
No.
Well we'll get to that beforethis hour is over.
Half hour.
This 20 minutes, this 10-minuteepisode.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
That's right.
Okay, good to be with you all.
Actually, one of my clients didsay, are you making this into a
book form?
And then I said, Well, thatwould be D.
D would probably do more of thatthan uh than Jim.
So anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Actually working on that now, so I appreciate the
question, and hopefully we'llhave something the listeners can
tap into if they want to.
That'd be great.
Here was a question that camein, a person who's been in a
long-term relationship, andsaid, How do I handle accusatory
questions from my spouse?
And it the kind of spin-off tothat he inter He interprets him
as accusatory.
(02:11):
Great point.
Great point.
Yeah, because there's nothingthat says that the spouse feels
that way.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Yeah.
unknown (02:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Then that's where it immediately starts to sort of go
off the rails, so to speak, inthat sense, how I'm interpreting
the other person.
And their tone of voice, youknow, all those things are a
part of it.
And it may be it may very wellbe, but the other person may not
acknowledge that.
I mean, that's yeah, that's thehard part of the communications
side of it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
And usually that will lead to a pretty quick
impasse if Yep.
Yep.
Pretty much take it asaccusatory and respond in a like
fashion by being accusatory.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
Oh, yeah.
The brain takes over and goes,whoops, okay, I'm fighting back.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a great first step, isif you feel like something is
accusatory, to ask yourself, isthere something inside of me
that is interpreting this asaccusatory, which is really
difficult in the moment?
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
But if you can pause and and hold the emotion for
just a moment before you react,you might Yeah, because if I'm
feeling accused and I take thatself-reflective moment, there
may be some truth in whateverthey're saying that feels
accusatory, but it may be, youknow, a growth thing for the
individual.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Yeah.
I spot on.
So the follow-up question tiesin and would take us to the next
level of why do I take thingspersonally?
Yeah, because you want to.
I think you I I think part ofthat is I take it personally
because I care deeply for theperson I'm interacting with.
(03:55):
That like the greater that levelof love and commitment, you're
personally invested, but it alsomakes you vulnerable because the
the affection lowers somedefenses that if you get
triggered, all of a sudden thedefenses fly up even higher than
they would have been had you notbeen vulnerable in that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
That's that's really true.
That's a that's a really goodreframe from that perspective.
You care so much for therelationship that you're
assuming something's there thatit's still hard for you to look
at.
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
And this is the last person youwould want thinking poorly of
you.
And when you feel like it'scoming across as accr
accusatory, it leaves you inthis space where, oh my
goodness, this person I caredeeply about thinks about me
less than I want them to thinkabout me.
(04:51):
Great.
That's a great way of puttingit.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
That's what that's why you get defensive, because
you you want the other person tohave you in high esteem.
And when they ask a questionthat challenges that, yeah, we
immediately become a littledefensive because, oh my word,
you're seeing me less than Iwant to see me, which is a
projection about I actually seemyself less than I really want
to acknowledge.
And so that's why it's theinternal part of it.
That's why I get triggered.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
Yeah.
Usually.
Usually.
It has been a joy to watch.
It's not easy to get there, butto work with couples where the
person who feels attacked, I Idon't know any different word
when it's accusatory.
It's kind of a sense of beingattacked.
When they are able to make astatement that says, I doubt you
(05:39):
are intending to, but I justwant you to know how I inwardly
react when you say things aparticular way.
And it's not on you.
I need to work on some things,probably.
But when you use this approach,I feel attacked.
And that slowing down theconversation just for a moment
(06:01):
can raise defenses in the otherperson, but it can also lead to
a conversation that s says, giveme some other ways that I could
have said it, because I wasn'tintending to attack, but that
just seemed like the natural wayto state something.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Yeah, it's the classic eye statement.
So if I have enough presence ofmind before I get triggered to
be able to say, I'm feelingaccused of something, is that
your intention?
Well, who does that in reallife?
It's a great point.
You know, it's like Well, let mehave oh, oh, I'm I'm feeling
something.
Excuse me for a second.
I'm feeling uh accused.
(06:34):
Is that no?
It's like that immediately thebrain tri gets protective and
pushes pushes back.
But yeah, that's that's always achallenge.
It's like, okay, I'm feelingreally intense.
And again, sometimes you have torealize the person who's saying
something has to be aware enoughto know how they're saying it as
well.
And they may be thinking they'resaying it perfectly, but they
(06:56):
also have a kind of a annotationin their in their voice or
something that conveys somethingdifferent than what they're
intending to do.
So it's a two-way street fromthat perspective.
But on the surface, typically weget defensive quickly because
there's probably something deepinside that's ringing a bell of
truth, and we haven't examinedit fully yet.
Whether it's it deep insecurity,whether it's I want to be viewed
(07:18):
as uh perfect or you know,whatever irrational thought may
be a part of it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
I think uh uh a great tape to try and play
enough so that it comes upnaturally in your head is the
tape that says, is theresomething here that's true that
I can take and grow from?
And can I just let go of therest?
Right.
And once again, that takespretty uh pretty good
self-awareness to even have thatthought.
Aaron Powell Yeah, you have tohave practiced that
(07:45):
intentionally numerous timesbefore you get to the place
where it pops up quickly.
Um I jotted down a few notes tomyself as we're talking here
about the difference between themasculine and feminine in how we
take things personally and thedifference between the toxic and
healthy masculine and the toxicand healthy feminine.
(08:09):
And so I'm now I'm talking aboutinwardly, because we all have
all of these things within us.
So if we're trying to tap intoanother part of who we are, how
do we know when it's showing upin a toxic way?
And how do we know when it'sshowing up?
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
That's a great point.
Because as you were asked thequestion, I was thinking, okay,
there's a healthy and unhealthyway that you're going to respond
to this in both the masculineand feminine sides, and both the
static and dynamic.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
So here's my here's how I think maybe it plays out.
You add to or disagree, whateveryou want.
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
But I will say I will simply whatever that word
is.
Concur?
Yeah.
Confer with what you say.
Would you concede?
That's what I want.
Oh, okay.
Yes.
I'll concede to your your farwisdom or wise than I am.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Okay.
So if inwardly my masculinecomes out in a toxic way, my
response to feeling accused,I'll be dismissive.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
I would just Yeah, that's the static response for
the masculine.
The aggressive masculine wouldpunch you in the face or fight
back.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Yeah.
Still it's the masculine side.
So a masculine toxicity would beaggressive or completely
dismissive.
Absolutely.
Just like, you know, you'recrazy.
Yeah.
So the healthy masculine wouldprobably seek more feedback.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Like, they would say, uh they would actually be
able to say, I'm I'm feelingreally defensive.
Or I'm being defensive, I know,or I'm I'm feeling accused.
Or they would more literallysay, I'm being accused.
That's not right.
Yeah.
That was that's not the bestform of it, but that's that's
the extreme healthy masculine.
They would push backappropriately and say, I'm being
(10:00):
accused of something.
They'd have to have a feminine,they'd have to add the feminine
side of that to say I'm feelingaccused, which is the
integration piece.
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
I can also see the masculine side out of a sense of
responsibility, not necessarilycompassion, because compassion
would move you more toward thefeminine side, but the pure
masculine, out of a sense ofresponsibility and knowing
that's it's important, wouldsay, Could you tell me more?
Yes.
(10:29):
Can you tell me what you'retrying to get at here?
Help me to understand it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
So that's a really healthy masculine mode that
seeks information.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
Exactly.
So the healthy masculine willseek more information as opposed
to be dismissive or aggressive.
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
And then and then the healthy Okay, so let's take
the feminine response to feelingaccused.
My perspective would be that thetoxic feminine, one of the
responses would be to pout.
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Right?
That would be the passiveapproach to pout.
And and let everybody know themood that they're in.
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
Mm-hmm.
In a very quiet way.
Or in a loud way, which would beto go h a little hysterical and
dramatic and I can't believe yousaid that about me.
I can't believe Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
The transformer energy would be far more
dramatic about it.
Yep.
Yeah.
The responder would be more ofthe the static feminine would be
more pout or mood-driven.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (11:32):
Yeah.
Mood driven and they would poutor they would go, I'm so sorry.
I'm just miserable.
I know I I mess up everything.
I, you know, it's my fault.
Yeah, they would go to that thatside of it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So the healthy feminine, when they feel like
they've been attacked, wouldstep into healthy relational
conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
The transformer might initially kind of laugh it
off like the masculine wouldminimize it.
They might initially do that alittle bit.
But then they would either teaseabout it or say, Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, I'd probably dothat.
That's probably true.
I do do that.
They might be more likely toacknowledge the truth of it,
just like the responder wouldsay, hey, you know what?
I can see that.
(12:12):
Again, the feminine isrelationally driven.
So the healthy side of it isthey emphasize that first, both
functionally or dysfunctionally.
And that's that's how thefunctional side of the of the
feminine would do it.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
So I think that one of the great things that this
question raises is that there isthis level of putting this into
practice where you are lookingat the dynamic in relationship.
You are looking at the dynamicwith a partner and the give and
take that takes place thatgenerally speaking brings out
(12:45):
your normal patterns.
Part of what we encourage in allof this is to now take that
inwardly and say, what if youtapped in to the parts of you
that don't normally give voiceto your reactions?
So if you have a strongmasculine response, not just to
do a different response out of asense of responsibility, but do
(13:08):
a different response out of asense of compassion or
relational value and try and tapinto a side of you that has not
regularly had expression in yourlife.
And that that inward will thenbegin to change how the outward
reactions take place.
(13:46):
This this hits a wound inside ofme that I'm just now beginning
to realize is there.
Have you seen this in me?
And engage in a conversationwith a partner that you trust.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Because it has to be when you're in a relationship,
it has to ideally it has to be ajourney you're on together, so
that if I'm experiencing you asbeing accusatory, they have to
begin to see how they could beinterpreted that way as well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
And I I know that both of us, therapist, coach,
have worked with individualswhere we are trying to get them
to see what's behind theirsarcastic comment or their
accusatory statement that theydeny and pass off of, oh, that's
just that's how I was raised, orwhatever the case might be.
(14:51):
And to help them become moreself-aware of their inability to
communicate what's really ontheir heart by doing it in these
very cryptic ways.
Yeah, it's uh it's very true.
Yeah.
Let me mention something thatcame out of experience with a
client of mine.
(15:11):
We have throughout the podcastused these terms, the stir
model, and we've given names tothe masculine dynamic, the
static feminine.
And we have in our mind,generally speaking, what those
categories are.
I have often encouraged peopleto not use our adjectives, but
(15:38):
to create their own descriptorsof what they view as the
masculine side or the feminineside.
What what does that mean to you?
That'll help them internalizesome of it.
That's good.
So one of those experiences wasthis week where I've been trying
to help this particular clientget in touch with her masculine
(15:58):
side that has found virtually noexpression in her life.
And I asked the question, Isaid, Would you just list for me
some adjectives of what youthink toxic masculinity is?
It was incredible, not so muchin touch with any expression in
her own life, but sheimmediately gave me this list of
(16:21):
nine adjectives that I couldn'thave done a better job of
identifying toxic masculinity.
I followed by saying, I know youdon't have as many models of
this, but what does healthymasculinity look like to you?
She gave me another list ofeight to nine, struggled, but I
just I waited, and she namedsome of the best adjectives of
(16:45):
healthy masculinity.
I said, So this now is yourframework for how you view the
masculine side of who you are.
You have good reason to bereluctant about going there
because look at this toxic side.
But in health, look what you cantap into.
And the list she gave you shegave you permission for us to
(17:08):
steal it.
Well, yes, she did.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
I immediately said, I need to market this.
Thank you very much for doingour work for us.
SPEAKER_01 (17:20):
Yeah.
But it reminds me that if forsome reason somebody has a
reaction to the term initiatorand they are wanting to identify
that as something else, do so.
Make the model fit for yourjourney.
And that I think is uh adownside of what has so often
(17:42):
happened is our attempt to puteverybody into a very static
model and say, no, these are theparameters.
This is so subjective and it'sbased on experiences and family
of origin.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
That's great.
So so the only reason I came upwith stir was because if you do
it all, it stirs it up.
So it made sense from thatperspective.
But you're right.
Is anybody can own that and makeit in their their own reality,
which is the internalizationprocess.
That's great.
Yeah.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (18:13):
Let me take us to another question here.
We had a a caller who orsomebody who wrote in and said
that she's an adult thatcurrently in a relationship.
She is a responder by nature.
And she is wrestling with howshe can do a better job of
loving herself.
Because as a responder, herfocus has been on other people
(18:36):
most of her journey.
We've talked a little bit aboutthis when we talked about the
responder and that they have tolearn that process of loving
themselves.
But in so doing, she reallyneeds to tap into some of the
other aspects of who she is.
So give her some suggestions onthis movement toward health as
she's trying to not with anotherperson, but on her own, develop
(19:01):
a way by which a pathway toself-love.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
Yeah, I think that's that that actually moves right
into the formulation of the fourquadrants.
I mean, really, she's identifiedthe one, her bias that she's
given away.
So she's now focusing onherself, which is the first step
that a responder will do.
Okay.
I need to love myself.
So where do I need to initiate?
Where do I need to have fun?
(19:25):
Where do I need to bring orderto my life?
You know, whether it'sdownsizing your life, whether
it's taking trips, all thosethings.
That's that's the naturalprogression of identifying where
you've given away your best andtaking that back and saying,
okay, wait a minute.
Where where do I need to takecharge of my life?
And where do I need to bringorder?
Where do I need to have fun?
(19:46):
That's exactly what and I thinkuh you shared with me a model
that you come up with that wehaven't expressed because we're
we're audio, so you can't seeit.
But it perfectly displays theoverlap of all the quadrants and
how they interplay.
And so from that perspective,the biggest uh move for this
person was to identify whattheir natural bias was, how
(20:09):
they've used it, and now to takeit back.
It's like a it's like aprojection.
You take back the projection andyou say, okay, where do I need
to be at this point?
And that's a great place to be.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
You know, Jim, I think probably it'd be good to
take that model and put it uhavailable on a website and the
resource in the notes of thisparticular podcast so somebody
can just tap on that and pull itup if they want to.
I'll make that happen this week.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Okay.
Um one of the individuals talkedabout it I didn't mean to make I
didn't mean to make have youmaking more work for you.
So Yeah, you do.
That's always what you want todo.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
That's true.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
That's true.
I feel like you're minimizingthings here, right?
You're just sitting aroundstaring at yourself in the
mirror.
I know that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
So a question has come up about how this applies
to our dreams.
We've touched on a few dreams,but let me make mention of a
good example here.
I had a client who had a dream,and there were four male
characters in the dream.
All four of the male charactersin the dream were providing care
(21:19):
for the dreamer in the dream indifferent ways.
They weren't all together.
They showed up at in differentscenes in different ways.
But when you looked at themovement of those characters,
they were all providing sometype of nurture or care or
consolation for the dreamer.
(21:43):
So then the question comes up ofhow do you use this model as a
way by which to learn more aboutyourself and that dream
material?
So one of the i issues is thatit appears in the dream that the
Masculine images are functioningin very nurturing, caregiving,
(22:05):
static feminine ways.
What might that imply about aperson's journey?
And I'm sure you have somesuggestions as to where you
might go with this, but one ofthose is to ask: do you feel in
your life that the masculineside of you is not being allowed
(22:26):
to express itself in itsmasculine strengths and ways?
Absolutely.
And why would that be true inyour life?
The other angle, if that doesn'tresonate with somebody, is to
say, is the masculine having tofill in for the feminine because
there's no self-care takingplace?
(22:48):
That the responder is not doingits own self-care.
And so the masculine is havingto step into a role that it's
not necessarily at its, I don'twant to say its best, but it's
its natural state because you,as in your ego, are having a
tough time doing the self-carethat you need to do.
(23:09):
And some some other part of youis having to step in to do that.
So any comments on that?
Any thoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Well, I think I think generally that's a great
way of looking at dreams becauseyou identify the parts of the
dream that go along with our uhour frame.
For example, I had a client whohad really angry dreams, and you
know, it didn't take long tofigure out that it was the
inappropriate expression.
(23:36):
He wasn't expressing he was justangry about so many things in
his life, but he was sucking up.
He was swallowing it.
And so he had these angrydreams.
And I said, Well, that's that'syour masculine energy trying to
express itself.
It's inappropriate, perhaps, butyou have to find your voice and
be able to say what you need tosay.
Well, at the same time, he said,I can't I can't do that.
(23:56):
I would risk it would riskrelationships.
I said, Well, we need to work onmaybe the appropriate way to say
some things.
But yeah, there's always a priceto pay when you take a stand for
things.
So from my perspective, yeah,identifying the dream, the parts
of the dream go along with thesame frame we have, and then
seeing what they're trying tosay to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
That that part about there is always a risk of
allowing another part to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
So so And the dream and the dreams can take care of
that without us having you do itin real life.
Yeah.
At least that's what.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
Here's the problem with that, though.
We'll talk in a couple of weekswhen we get into season two of
Dreams about the five functionsof dreams.
And one of the functions is thatit helps us to process emotions
of the previous few days that wedid not give attention to during
the day, but they carry suchemotional weight that they need
(24:52):
to be recalibrated for us tohave any capacity the next day
for emotions.
And so if somebody isexperiencing some things that
trigger anger, but during theday you don't give emotional
attention to that anger, youwon't the next day have any
capacity for emotions if atnight the dreams don't replace
(25:14):
some of those things to giveexpression to that anger.
So dreams play out for us theexpression of this emotion so
that we can recalibrate and haveemotional capacity the next day.
And there are two parts to that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
That's why sleep is so important.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
Essential.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So we can be grateful thatdreams are doing that, but when
we pay attention to our dreams,it should be a reminder that,
oh, actually, I probably need togive expression to my anger
while I'm awake.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
And if you do that, you'll have wonderfully pleasant
dreams forever.
SPEAKER_01 (25:53):
Anyway, that's some of what we have to look forward
to in season two, is taking alittle bit of a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
I look forward to that because you you know more
of the dream stuff than I am.
So I'll hopefully I have goodquestions like you have for me
when it comes to dreams.
I'll just simply say this.
Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
And then I'll go, I I feel like I'm being accused.
Like I shouldn't be talkingabout this.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
And I'll go, you are being accused, because I have no
idea what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
So no.
You'll say to me, okay, pay memy fee and I will explain this
to you.
Uh okay.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Uh I'll embrace that one.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
Oh, Jim.
As always, it is so great to bewith you.
Looking forward not only tosummarizing this season, but
moving into season two, we canwhen we can uh dig a little bit
deeper into some of thesethings.
Thanks, Jim.
Thank you very much.
See you.
Bye.
(27:00):
And dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, doctor
Shali at AFCcounselors.com, orDoctor Kelly at
inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
(27:20):
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
My name is D.
Kelly.
I'm here with my co-host, JimShalley.
Good to be with you, Jim.
Good to be with you, D.
As usual.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
We've been what what episode is this?
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
This is episode 563.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Of which we've done 17 of them.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Something like that.
We are exploring personality andhow it gets expressed
relationally and engagement inthe world and vocationally,
trying to help people see amodel that would help them in
terms of their balance andhealth.
We've had a number of questionsfrom listeners, and we thought
(00:55):
that we would continue just witha few more that have come in.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
The first one that I'd like to hand off to you is
before you continue, there wasone that I know uh sorry to
interrupt, but there's one thatactually said, when are you
going to talk about dreams?
So sometime probably we need tofocus more on the dream side of
it sometimes.
Anyway.
I don't want to forget.
I didn't want to make forget tomake that comment.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
I appreciate that.
So then let's jump down to thelast question here, which has to
do with dreams.
No.
Well we'll get to that beforethis hour is over.
Half hour.
This 20 minutes, this 10-minuteepisode.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
That's right.
Okay, good to be with you all.
Actually, one of my clients didsay, are you making this into a
book form?
And then I said, Well, thatwould be D.
D would probably do more of thatthan uh than Jim.
So anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Actually working on that now, so I appreciate the
question, and hopefully we'llhave something the listeners can
tap into if they want to.
That'd be great.
Here was a question that camein, a person who's been in a
long-term relationship, andsaid, How do I handle accusatory
questions from my spouse?
And it the kind of spin-off tothat he inter He interprets him
as accusatory.
(02:11):
Great point.
Great point.
Yeah, because there's nothingthat says that the spouse feels
that way.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Yeah.
unknown (02:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Then that's where it immediately starts to sort of go
off the rails, so to speak, inthat sense, how I'm interpreting
the other person.
And their tone of voice, youknow, all those things are a
part of it.
And it may be it may very wellbe, but the other person may not
acknowledge that.
I mean, that's yeah, that's thehard part of the communications
side of it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
And usually that will lead to a pretty quick
impasse if Yep.
Yep.
Pretty much take it asaccusatory and respond in a like
fashion by being accusatory.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
Oh, yeah.
The brain takes over and goes,whoops, okay, I'm fighting back.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a great first step, isif you feel like something is
accusatory, to ask yourself, isthere something inside of me
that is interpreting this asaccusatory, which is really
difficult in the moment?
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
But if you can pause and and hold the emotion for
just a moment before you react,you might Yeah, because if I'm
feeling accused and I take thatself-reflective moment, there
may be some truth in whateverthey're saying that feels
accusatory, but it may be, youknow, a growth thing for the
individual.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Yeah.
I spot on.
So the follow-up question tiesin and would take us to the next
level of why do I take thingspersonally?
Yeah, because you want to.
I think you I I think part ofthat is I take it personally
because I care deeply for theperson I'm interacting with.
(03:55):
That like the greater that levelof love and commitment, you're
personally invested, but it alsomakes you vulnerable because the
the affection lowers somedefenses that if you get
triggered, all of a sudden thedefenses fly up even higher than
they would have been had you notbeen vulnerable in that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
That's that's really true.
That's a that's a really goodreframe from that perspective.
You care so much for therelationship that you're
assuming something's there thatit's still hard for you to look
at.
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
And this is the last person youwould want thinking poorly of
you.
And when you feel like it'scoming across as accr
accusatory, it leaves you inthis space where, oh my
goodness, this person I caredeeply about thinks about me
less than I want them to thinkabout me.
(04:51):
Great.
That's a great way of puttingit.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
That's what that's why you get defensive, because
you you want the other person tohave you in high esteem.
And when they ask a questionthat challenges that, yeah, we
immediately become a littledefensive because, oh my word,
you're seeing me less than Iwant to see me, which is a
projection about I actually seemyself less than I really want
to acknowledge.
And so that's why it's theinternal part of it.
That's why I get triggered.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
Yeah.
Usually.
Usually.
It has been a joy to watch.
It's not easy to get there, butto work with couples where the
person who feels attacked, I Idon't know any different word
when it's accusatory.
It's kind of a sense of beingattacked.
When they are able to make astatement that says, I doubt you
(05:39):
are intending to, but I justwant you to know how I inwardly
react when you say things aparticular way.
And it's not on you.
I need to work on some things,probably.
But when you use this approach,I feel attacked.
And that slowing down theconversation just for a moment
(06:01):
can raise defenses in the otherperson, but it can also lead to
a conversation that s says, giveme some other ways that I could
have said it, because I wasn'tintending to attack, but that
just seemed like the natural wayto state something.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Yeah, it's the classic eye statement.
So if I have enough presence ofmind before I get triggered to
be able to say, I'm feelingaccused of something, is that
your intention?
Well, who does that in reallife?
It's a great point.
You know, it's like Well, let mehave oh, oh, I'm I'm feeling
something.
Excuse me for a second.
I'm feeling uh accused.
(06:34):
Is that no?
It's like that immediately thebrain tri gets protective and
pushes pushes back.
But yeah, that's that's always achallenge.
It's like, okay, I'm feelingreally intense.
And again, sometimes you have torealize the person who's saying
something has to be aware enoughto know how they're saying it as
well.
And they may be thinking they'resaying it perfectly, but they
(06:56):
also have a kind of a annotationin their in their voice or
something that conveys somethingdifferent than what they're
intending to do.
So it's a two-way street fromthat perspective.
But on the surface, typically weget defensive quickly because
there's probably something deepinside that's ringing a bell of
truth, and we haven't examinedit fully yet.
Whether it's it deep insecurity,whether it's I want to be viewed
(07:18):
as uh perfect or you know,whatever irrational thought may
be a part of it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
I think uh uh a great tape to try and play
enough so that it comes upnaturally in your head is the
tape that says, is theresomething here that's true that
I can take and grow from?
And can I just let go of therest?
Right.
And once again, that takespretty uh pretty good
self-awareness to even have thatthought.
Aaron Powell Yeah, you have tohave practiced that
(07:45):
intentionally numerous timesbefore you get to the place
where it pops up quickly.
Um I jotted down a few notes tomyself as we're talking here
about the difference between themasculine and feminine in how we
take things personally and thedifference between the toxic and
healthy masculine and the toxicand healthy feminine.
(08:09):
And so I'm now I'm talking aboutinwardly, because we all have
all of these things within us.
So if we're trying to tap intoanother part of who we are, how
do we know when it's showing upin a toxic way?
And how do we know when it'sshowing up?
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
That's a great point.
Because as you were asked thequestion, I was thinking, okay,
there's a healthy and unhealthyway that you're going to respond
to this in both the masculineand feminine sides, and both the
static and dynamic.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
So here's my here's how I think maybe it plays out.
You add to or disagree, whateveryou want.
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
But I will say I will simply whatever that word
is.
Concur?
Yeah.
Confer with what you say.
Would you concede?
That's what I want.
Oh, okay.
Yes.
I'll concede to your your farwisdom or wise than I am.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Okay.
So if inwardly my masculinecomes out in a toxic way, my
response to feeling accused,I'll be dismissive.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
I would just Yeah, that's the static response for
the masculine.
The aggressive masculine wouldpunch you in the face or fight
back.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Yeah.
Still it's the masculine side.
So a masculine toxicity would beaggressive or completely
dismissive.
Absolutely.
Just like, you know, you'recrazy.
Yeah.
So the healthy masculine wouldprobably seek more feedback.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Like, they would say, uh they would actually be
able to say, I'm I'm feelingreally defensive.
Or I'm being defensive, I know,or I'm I'm feeling accused.
Or they would more literallysay, I'm being accused.
That's not right.
Yeah.
That was that's not the bestform of it, but that's that's
the extreme healthy masculine.
They would push backappropriately and say, I'm being
(10:00):
accused of something.
They'd have to have a feminine,they'd have to add the feminine
side of that to say I'm feelingaccused, which is the
integration piece.
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
I can also see the masculine side out of a sense of
responsibility, not necessarilycompassion, because compassion
would move you more toward thefeminine side, but the pure
masculine, out of a sense ofresponsibility and knowing
that's it's important, wouldsay, Could you tell me more?
Yes.
(10:29):
Can you tell me what you'retrying to get at here?
Help me to understand it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
So that's a really healthy masculine mode that
seeks information.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
Exactly.
So the healthy masculine willseek more information as opposed
to be dismissive or aggressive.
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
And then and then the healthy Okay, so let's take
the feminine response to feelingaccused.
My perspective would be that thetoxic feminine, one of the
responses would be to pout.
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Right?
That would be the passiveapproach to pout.
And and let everybody know themood that they're in.
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
Mm-hmm.
In a very quiet way.
Or in a loud way, which would beto go h a little hysterical and
dramatic and I can't believe yousaid that about me.
I can't believe Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
The transformer energy would be far more
dramatic about it.
Yep.
Yeah.
The responder would be more ofthe the static feminine would be
more pout or mood-driven.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (11:32):
Yeah.
Mood driven and they would poutor they would go, I'm so sorry.
I'm just miserable.
I know I I mess up everything.
I, you know, it's my fault.
Yeah, they would go to that thatside of it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So the healthy feminine, when they feel like
they've been attacked, wouldstep into healthy relational
conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
The transformer might initially kind of laugh it
off like the masculine wouldminimize it.
They might initially do that alittle bit.
But then they would either teaseabout it or say, Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, I'd probably dothat.
That's probably true.
I do do that.
They might be more likely toacknowledge the truth of it,
just like the responder wouldsay, hey, you know what?
I can see that.
(12:12):
Again, the feminine isrelationally driven.
So the healthy side of it isthey emphasize that first, both
functionally or dysfunctionally.
And that's that's how thefunctional side of the of the
feminine would do it.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
So I think that one of the great things that this
question raises is that there isthis level of putting this into
practice where you are lookingat the dynamic in relationship.
You are looking at the dynamicwith a partner and the give and
take that takes place thatgenerally speaking brings out
(12:45):
your normal patterns.
Part of what we encourage in allof this is to now take that
inwardly and say, what if youtapped in to the parts of you
that don't normally give voiceto your reactions?
So if you have a strongmasculine response, not just to
do a different response out of asense of responsibility, but do
(13:08):
a different response out of asense of compassion or
relational value and try and tapinto a side of you that has not
regularly had expression in yourlife.
And that that inward will thenbegin to change how the outward
reactions take place.
(13:46):
This this hits a wound inside ofme that I'm just now beginning
to realize is there.
Have you seen this in me?
And engage in a conversationwith a partner that you trust.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Because it has to be when you're in a relationship,
it has to ideally it has to be ajourney you're on together, so
that if I'm experiencing you asbeing accusatory, they have to
begin to see how they could beinterpreted that way as well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
And I I know that both of us, therapist, coach,
have worked with individualswhere we are trying to get them
to see what's behind theirsarcastic comment or their
accusatory statement that theydeny and pass off of, oh, that's
just that's how I was raised, orwhatever the case might be.
(14:51):
And to help them become moreself-aware of their inability to
communicate what's really ontheir heart by doing it in these
very cryptic ways.
Yeah, it's uh it's very true.
Yeah.
Let me mention something thatcame out of experience with a
client of mine.
(15:11):
We have throughout the podcastused these terms, the stir
model, and we've given names tothe masculine dynamic, the
static feminine.
And we have in our mind,generally speaking, what those
categories are.
I have often encouraged peopleto not use our adjectives, but
(15:38):
to create their own descriptorsof what they view as the
masculine side or the feminineside.
What what does that mean to you?
That'll help them internalizesome of it.
That's good.
So one of those experiences wasthis week where I've been trying
to help this particular clientget in touch with her masculine
(15:58):
side that has found virtually noexpression in her life.
And I asked the question, Isaid, Would you just list for me
some adjectives of what youthink toxic masculinity is?
It was incredible, not so muchin touch with any expression in
her own life, but sheimmediately gave me this list of
(16:21):
nine adjectives that I couldn'thave done a better job of
identifying toxic masculinity.
I followed by saying, I know youdon't have as many models of
this, but what does healthymasculinity look like to you?
She gave me another list ofeight to nine, struggled, but I
just I waited, and she namedsome of the best adjectives of
(16:45):
healthy masculinity.
I said, So this now is yourframework for how you view the
masculine side of who you are.
You have good reason to bereluctant about going there
because look at this toxic side.
But in health, look what you cantap into.
And the list she gave you shegave you permission for us to
(17:08):
steal it.
Well, yes, she did.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
I immediately said, I need to market this.
Thank you very much for doingour work for us.
SPEAKER_01 (17:20):
Yeah.
But it reminds me that if forsome reason somebody has a
reaction to the term initiatorand they are wanting to identify
that as something else, do so.
Make the model fit for yourjourney.
And that I think is uh adownside of what has so often
(17:42):
happened is our attempt to puteverybody into a very static
model and say, no, these are theparameters.
This is so subjective and it'sbased on experiences and family
of origin.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
That's great.
So so the only reason I came upwith stir was because if you do
it all, it stirs it up.
So it made sense from thatperspective.
But you're right.
Is anybody can own that and makeit in their their own reality,
which is the internalizationprocess.
That's great.
Yeah.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (18:13):
Let me take us to another question here.
We had a a caller who orsomebody who wrote in and said
that she's an adult thatcurrently in a relationship.
She is a responder by nature.
And she is wrestling with howshe can do a better job of
loving herself.
Because as a responder, herfocus has been on other people
(18:36):
most of her journey.
We've talked a little bit aboutthis when we talked about the
responder and that they have tolearn that process of loving
themselves.
But in so doing, she reallyneeds to tap into some of the
other aspects of who she is.
So give her some suggestions onthis movement toward health as
she's trying to not with anotherperson, but on her own, develop
(19:01):
a way by which a pathway toself-love.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
Yeah, I think that's that that actually moves right
into the formulation of the fourquadrants.
I mean, really, she's identifiedthe one, her bias that she's
given away.
So she's now focusing onherself, which is the first step
that a responder will do.
Okay.
I need to love myself.
So where do I need to initiate?
Where do I need to have fun?
(19:25):
Where do I need to bring orderto my life?
You know, whether it'sdownsizing your life, whether
it's taking trips, all thosethings.
That's that's the naturalprogression of identifying where
you've given away your best andtaking that back and saying,
okay, wait a minute.
Where where do I need to takecharge of my life?
And where do I need to bringorder?
Where do I need to have fun?
(19:46):
That's exactly what and I thinkuh you shared with me a model
that you come up with that wehaven't expressed because we're
we're audio, so you can't seeit.
But it perfectly displays theoverlap of all the quadrants and
how they interplay.
And so from that perspective,the biggest uh move for this
person was to identify whattheir natural bias was, how
(20:09):
they've used it, and now to takeit back.
It's like a it's like aprojection.
You take back the projection andyou say, okay, where do I need
to be at this point?
And that's a great place to be.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
You know, Jim, I think probably it'd be good to
take that model and put it uhavailable on a website and the
resource in the notes of thisparticular podcast so somebody
can just tap on that and pull itup if they want to.
I'll make that happen this week.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Okay.
Um one of the individuals talkedabout it I didn't mean to make I
didn't mean to make have youmaking more work for you.
So Yeah, you do.
That's always what you want todo.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
That's true.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
That's true.
I feel like you're minimizingthings here, right?
You're just sitting aroundstaring at yourself in the
mirror.
I know that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
So a question has come up about how this applies
to our dreams.
We've touched on a few dreams,but let me make mention of a
good example here.
I had a client who had a dream,and there were four male
characters in the dream.
All four of the male charactersin the dream were providing care
(21:19):
for the dreamer in the dream indifferent ways.
They weren't all together.
They showed up at in differentscenes in different ways.
But when you looked at themovement of those characters,
they were all providing sometype of nurture or care or
consolation for the dreamer.
(21:43):
So then the question comes up ofhow do you use this model as a
way by which to learn more aboutyourself and that dream
material?
So one of the i issues is thatit appears in the dream that the
Masculine images are functioningin very nurturing, caregiving,
(22:05):
static feminine ways.
What might that imply about aperson's journey?
And I'm sure you have somesuggestions as to where you
might go with this, but one ofthose is to ask: do you feel in
your life that the masculineside of you is not being allowed
(22:26):
to express itself in itsmasculine strengths and ways?
Absolutely.
And why would that be true inyour life?
The other angle, if that doesn'tresonate with somebody, is to
say, is the masculine having tofill in for the feminine because
there's no self-care takingplace?
(22:48):
That the responder is not doingits own self-care.
And so the masculine is havingto step into a role that it's
not necessarily at its, I don'twant to say its best, but it's
its natural state because you,as in your ego, are having a
tough time doing the self-carethat you need to do.
(23:09):
And some some other part of youis having to step in to do that.
So any comments on that?
Any thoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Well, I think I think generally that's a great
way of looking at dreams becauseyou identify the parts of the
dream that go along with our uhour frame.
For example, I had a client whohad really angry dreams, and you
know, it didn't take long tofigure out that it was the
inappropriate expression.
(23:36):
He wasn't expressing he was justangry about so many things in
his life, but he was sucking up.
He was swallowing it.
And so he had these angrydreams.
And I said, Well, that's that'syour masculine energy trying to
express itself.
It's inappropriate, perhaps, butyou have to find your voice and
be able to say what you need tosay.
Well, at the same time, he said,I can't I can't do that.
(23:56):
I would risk it would riskrelationships.
I said, Well, we need to work onmaybe the appropriate way to say
some things.
But yeah, there's always a priceto pay when you take a stand for
things.
So from my perspective, yeah,identifying the dream, the parts
of the dream go along with thesame frame we have, and then
seeing what they're trying tosay to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
That that part about there is always a risk of
allowing another part to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
So so And the dream and the dreams can take care of
that without us having you do itin real life.
Yeah.
At least that's what.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
Here's the problem with that, though.
We'll talk in a couple of weekswhen we get into season two of
Dreams about the five functionsof dreams.
And one of the functions is thatit helps us to process emotions
of the previous few days that wedid not give attention to during
the day, but they carry suchemotional weight that they need
(24:52):
to be recalibrated for us tohave any capacity the next day
for emotions.
And so if somebody isexperiencing some things that
trigger anger, but during theday you don't give emotional
attention to that anger, youwon't the next day have any
capacity for emotions if atnight the dreams don't replace
(25:14):
some of those things to giveexpression to that anger.
So dreams play out for us theexpression of this emotion so
that we can recalibrate and haveemotional capacity the next day.
And there are two parts to that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
That's why sleep is so important.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
Essential.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So we can be grateful thatdreams are doing that, but when
we pay attention to our dreams,it should be a reminder that,
oh, actually, I probably need togive expression to my anger
while I'm awake.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
And if you do that, you'll have wonderfully pleasant
dreams forever.
SPEAKER_01 (25:53):
Anyway, that's some of what we have to look forward
to in season two, is taking alittle bit of a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
I look forward to that because you you know more
of the dream stuff than I am.
So I'll hopefully I have goodquestions like you have for me
when it comes to dreams.
I'll just simply say this.
Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
And then I'll go, I I feel like I'm being accused.
Like I shouldn't be talkingabout this.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
And I'll go, you are being accused, because I have no
idea what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
So no.
You'll say to me, okay, pay memy fee and I will explain this
to you.
Uh okay.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Uh I'll embrace that one.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
Oh, Jim.
As always, it is so great to bewith you.
Looking forward not only tosummarizing this season, but
moving into season two, we canwhen we can uh dig a little bit
deeper into some of thesethings.
Thanks, Jim.
Thank you very much.
See you.
Bye.
(27:00):
And dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, doctor
Shali at AFCcounselors.com, orDoctor Kelly at
inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
(27:20):
And until next time, keepgrowing, stay curious, and take
good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff.
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